Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Bigleaguer (talk | contribs) at 17:22, 10 October 2007 (→Content blanking). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Making comments on talk pages

I take it you aren't aware of the convention of signing any comments you leave on talk pages. Additionally do not change comments you have already left. If you wish to retract any statements then use the strike out tag. If you wish to add to a comment, then do so by adding a NEW comment. The current techniques you are using are contrary to accepted standards and make it confusing for people to keep up with topics. Thank you. ---- WebHamster 01:31, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Content blanking

Please do not delete content from pages on Misplaced Pages, as you did to Talk:Joel Beinin. Your edits do not appear to be constructive and have been reverted. If you would like to experiment, please use the sandbox for test edits. Thank you.RolandR 11:32, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

I deleted a line concerning his experience of racism in Israel which was excessive and falsely generalized to 7 million Israelis and Beinin's whole career based on a single described encounter. The line did not deserve a whole paragraph of explanation (nor in my opinion did the one encounter justify Beinin's whole career "from the other side.")Bigleaguer 13:10, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

NO, you editorialized, adding under the passage, as though it were a part of the quote from Beinin:-

'Many would argue that prejudice is endemic to all societies in all times and that nothing was unique about Beinin's experience on the kibbutz. However, it was to change Beinin's view of his world, as Beinin removed himself from his people.

Read the rules, there are about 7 violations just in this one line. p.s. A word of advice. If you are interested in contributing to the Beinin page, read his books, and not the global gossip column and smear circuit stuff, written by people who know nothing about his work, but are hostile at what, on hearsay, he appears to be saying.Nishidani 13:20, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Beinin smeared a whole country by describing one atypical encounter, so I attempted to make a reader see that what Beinin described as "Israel" is not "Israel" to many other people, ie. I don't think "Israelis" are like that. Maybe a few, but no more than in other countries. Deleting the whole paragraph was another way to accomplish the same thing. I don't see where placing the same content as a supposed reference accomplishes anything. The quote is not a reference, it is opinion under the reference heading where it does not belong. Regarding violations, if they aren't cited individually they did not happen. There is nothing wrong with saying that the experience changed your life, otherwise you would not have put it into your sanitized approved bio int he first place. By the way, the gratuitous insults you delivered, on the discussion section, Nishidani ARE violations (ie "sophomoric" "Stupid" etc.) although I recognize that is your modus from having already read your quotes on your other critics eg. Kramer and Pipes. They are not appropriate for wiki.Bigleaguer 16:09, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

It's difficult to see quite what you did, but it looks to me as though you removed some 60 lines of discussion, including even your own comments. RolandR 15:09, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

I am getting the hang of it. I did remove the name of someone whom Beinin brought in without permission. That was the only part of someone else's discussion that I deleted. I also tried to move a paragraph without deleting it (of mine) from one section to another, or perhaps it did not show up right away, and I tried again. Bigleaguer 16:09, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Learn to read, preferably books, not the internet. Beinin referred to his experience on a Kibbutz, where that remark was made. Recalling an experience of that kind does not constitute a 'smear' on the people of Israel. (It's not 'atypical'. I was reproved on my kibbutz by supervisors when I bungled a plumbing job for doing 'avodah aravit'. This opinion reflected in each instance, the mindset of the specific supervisor, and I found many Israelis on the same kibbutz who would never use that kind of idiom. To say there are antisemitic attitudes in Germany does not mean all Germans are antisemitic. To think so is to flunk the first lesson in logic, on what is or is not entailed).

If you trouble yourself to read Beinin's books, he is anti-Zionist, for the simple reason that he is aware, as all historians are, that there existed not one unified, consensual national Jewish identity, but a great plurality of Jewish identities, whose richness was destroyed by modernity, and the loss of which he laments. His critique starts from that of an American Zionist, who experienced delusions about the idealism inculcated into him from youth. Because he underwent a mental sea-change, that explains much of the direction his research then took, it is worth noting in full. Eliminate that personal experience, and you will not understand what motivates his work, just as eliminating the para on Norman Finkelstein's mother would make his own later polemical stance incomprehensible. That is why all editors, pro-Israeli or otherwise, accept it as pertinent background.Nishidani 16:39, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually, Joel there remains a great plurality of Jewish experience, although in the shadow of the Shoah most of it is concentrated in Israel, although there also is some in other places. If you don't go to Israel and ENJOY IT you can't any longer experience Egyptian, Yemenite, Iraqi, Syrian, Russian, Ethiopian, English, or French Judaism. Its not what it was but its still there if you stop being a hater. However, the explanation makes the incomprehensible still incomprehensible. The explanation seems like an excuse for shoddy and sloppy scholarship where up is down imagined is real and facts don't matter. Actually, whatever psychic traumas you might have endured through your upbringing does NOT excuse your sloppy work. Finkelstein is a separate case and whereas I generally find him offensive again I don't like his personal psychic drama playing out in history books I read. Frankly I think your ideas ought to stand on their own without the backdrop which is kind of boring.Bigleaguer 16:52, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

And it is rather boring to be confused, as someone with a quite distinct academic background (see my edit record) to Beinin's, with him. But since you are both deeply uninformed and a crashing bore, no real cause for surprise. End of communication.Nis hidani 15:21, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

At least I don't make up facts, Joel.