Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by HisSpaceResearch (talk | contribs) at 13:56, 29 November 2007 (→What is the ethnicity of her mother?: new section). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Title

Is it appropriate to call this page "...Murder..." when no charges have been brought, there is no apparent motive, and everyone suspected denies involvement in the killing? Since her killing is supposed to have taken place during 'violent sex play', is it not quite possible that it was accidental and will eventually lead to manslaughter charges, rather than murder? It seems to me the article is prejudging an ongoing investigation, which is hardly appropriate for an encyclopedia. I suggest the word 'Murder' in the title be changed to 'Death' or 'Killing'.Quelcrime (talk) 18:03, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

• Well it would be very hard to argue a case for manslaughter when the evidence suggests that Kercher died from blood loss after a knife punctured her carotid artery. I think it would be difficult to argue that such a circumstance would ever be accidental and therefore anything but murder. Lastly, all the sources indicate that it was a murder, the Italian police are treating is a murder and a judge has detained suspects on suspicion of murder so I honestly don't know what else you could call this. Cumulus Clouds (talk) 19:46, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

• I don't follow your argument that a knife wound to the carotid artery cannot be accidental, though of course even a deliberate but unpremeditated stabbing might not amount to murder. People are killed by knives both accidentally and without premeditation. There are other possibilities; insanity on the part of the killer, for example. We don't know until the investigation is complete.Quelcrime (talk) 01:07, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

• Based on the mountain of evidence presented by the police, prosecution, defense and pathologist, I see no way that Kercher's death could ever be ruled accidental, sorry. Likewise, whether or not this crime was premeditated makes no difference in the classification of murder. Cumulus Clouds (talk) 05:02, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Merger

I have merged these two articles into a single entry covering only the event, per the comments here. The information at the start and end of the article was taken from Meredith Kercher, since I believe deference should be given to the victim instead of the suspects in the articles' lead, similar to Murder of Tom ap Rhys Pryce. I have taken information about the crime itself and its investigation from the body of the article for Amanda Knox. This was only because I had cited all the information in that section and I was familiar with the formatting. I recognize that that section frequently employs Knox's name and that there will be some bias to it, because I was the main editor for that section. I encourage others to edit it further to bring it close to NPOV. If this merger was premature, please let me know here or leave a message on my talk page. Thank you. Cumulus Clouds 03:58, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but I think that precedent is wrong; this page is about a notable event not about an otherwise nn person nor is it a tribute to that person. We thrashed this out at Disappearance of Madeleine McCann where the bio is, rightly, at the end. TerriersFan 05:03, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

• It made more sense to me to have the brief biographic intro towards the beginning, if only to describe the players involved in the event itself. I don't disagree about the nature of the article, though. Cumulus Clouds 05:10, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

We are going to have to add bios about the suspects as well and my view is that they should form a reference-type section at the end. The reader wants the meat of the article early and then the background info later. The lead, rightly, introduces the victim and why she was there. TerriersFan 05:14, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

• Also, Yellowdesk will likely remove the current events template from this article, since he expressed his view on Amanda Knox that that article doesn't satisfy the criteria of Template:Current#Guidelines. Just something to consider. Cumulus Clouds 05:45, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Prosecutorial Assertions

I have changed "The prosecutor has asserted that Knox held Kercher down while..." into the "The police allegedly suspect that Knox may have held Kercher down while...". I have read the article cited as source and it reads "Police believe that Ms Knox held the victim down during a prolonged sexual assault by Mr Lumbumba, gripping her fingers so tightly that she left an imprint on Ms Kercher's skin. When Ms Kercher continued to resist a knife was drawn and her skin was punctured." The police may believe in a lot of different scenarios at the erlier stages of an investigation. A prosecutor in most cases makes assertions when factual evidence is already available; besides, it's a possibility not a certainty and the source cited is a newspaper, not an official police or prosecutor's report. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Labrador72 (talk • contribs) 21:03, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

• Well, I'll give you that the source doesn't say anything about what the prosecutors believe. However, multiple sources have given detailed accounts about what the police think happened in this case, so it would be improper to say "police allegedly suspect" since we several confirmed accounts of what the police are suspecting happened in this case. Also including the phrase "may have held" isn't really appropriate, given that they aren't so much pondering the question as accusing Knox of doing it. Cumulus Clouds 21:29, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Article sources

This page is so conventional. It's sources are just newspapers. And the source of newspapers is fantasy. One makes up a datum or a piece of the story and all the others follow it. And[REDACTED] follows them. Who was trying to give direct data, like the local website (blog removed) has been prevented. Good like this, keep blocking the truth. Follow the flock, and the stupid rules. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.10.191.107 (talk) 21:57, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Links

Was MK studying at Universita' per Stranieri? Link to external site if she was. Bilby5 13:22, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Amanda Knox

I think that there should be either more information regarding the other two suspects, or less of a focus on Amanda, because although the only sources for this article are sensationalized, the consensus throughout most of the internet (which is like[REDACTED] more: accurate than any single reporter) is that she didn't have much to do with it (other than the gruesome fingerprint evidence). Also, should there be biographies of the suspects and of Meredith Kercher as well, or should this article exist principally for the purpose of news?
What do you think?
(----) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alexkorbonits (talk • contribs) 23:38, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

• I agree and the focus on Amanda Knox should be weakened. We should opt to include the same amount of small material about the other suspects -as opposed to more about all three- because of the concerns you've raised about notability. The reason the body contains that focus on Knox is because I copied it directly out of the former Amanda Knox article when I created this one, which I only did because I was more familiar with the reference and style there. I would ask that you please revise it to remove this anomaly, if you don't mind. Cumulus Clouds (talk) 01:13, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

This article does not belong in an Encyclopedia

The story of one girl's murder, although tragic, does not belong in an Encyclopedia. I suggest we delete this article from Misplaced Pages and move it to WikiNews. Graham Wellington (talk) 16:52, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

When publicity is sufficiently extensive then a page can move over the boundary between news and encyclopaedia, and this one does. TerriersFan (talk) 16:57, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is an Encyclopedia, not a murder news archive. Furthermore, Kerchner is not a famous or notable person. Graham Wellington (talk) 17:11, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

She is not notable but her murder is. TerriersFan (talk) 17:57, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Kercher's murder is not notable and it smacks of recentism. Hundreds of young women are murdered each year. Her story is tragic, but it is neither notable or special. Graham Wellington (talk) 00:47, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

• It is notable because of the media coverage being given to the case. This is evidenced by the amount of citations and the easily referenceable material in the case. As TerriersFan pointed out, neither Amanda Knox or Meredith Kercher are notable in their own right, but this event is, so both of those articles were merged into this one to focus only on this event. Cumulus Clouds (talk) 18:17, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Would one of you please show me how to nominate an article for deletion? Graham Wellington (talk) 15:35, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

WP:AFD. TerriersFan (talk) 16:12, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Ordinarily, one murder is not notable. However, given the immense international attention this particular murder has received over the last 3 weeks it is notable. Why is it OK to have an article for Außervillgraten, -- Jwinters | Talk 18:19, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Because there is a convention that places are sufficiently notable for their own article. I have to say that I think that is dubious but there we are. On this particular article it crosses the threshold because not only of the widespread media comment but the fact that it is an international event reported across the world. TerriersFan (talk) 23:05, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Actually, that was my point. My comment got cut off mid-sentence, but it goes along the lines of if a relatively obscure place like Außervillgraten has an article, then this with it's widespread international attention, should have an article. -- Jwinters | Talk 18:33, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

I disgree with any proposal for deletion. The subject has recieved enormous attention over the past three weeks, and was in the headlines numerous times. As such, it has exceeded Misplaced Pages

s notability guidelines.EgraS (talk) 07:36, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Prose tag

 Done

I have removed the prose tag. This is a reference section that is better as a bulletted list, in my view. Having said that, if someone wants to prose it I won't resist that. In principle, if someone wants a section prosed then just do it! TerriersFan (talk) 17:35, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

ok Cumulus Clouds (talk) 21:45, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

What is the ethnicity of her mother?

Her father is white, but her mother is black - is that correct?--h i s _{r e s e a r c h} 13:56, 29 November 2007 (UTC)