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The Military history WikiProject Newsletter : Issue XXI (November 2007)

The Military history WikiProject Newsletter Issue XXI (November 2007)
Project news The military history style guide has been integrated into Misplaced Pages's Manual of Style. The contest department has completed its eight month of competition. The leader for this month, with a massive 92 points, is Blnguyen; Woodym555 is in second place, with 32 points, and Cla68 and TomStar81 are tied for third place, with 15 points each. Overall, Blnguyen is now in first place, with 140 points, followed by JKBrooks85, with 120 points, and by Woodym555, with 63 points. All project members are encouraged to submit the articles they're working on as entries. The American Revolutionary War and Baltic states military history task forces have been created. Tag & Assess 2007—the project's first major article tagging and assessment drive—is continuing; all project members—and anyone else who's interested—are invited to assist with this effort. The number of articles tagged as being within our scope has now exceeded 50,000.	Articles of note New featured articles: Battle of Red Cliffs James II of England Lawrence Sullivan Ross Pre-dreadnought battleship Thomas C. Hindman USS Kentucky (BB-66) New featured lists: List of Australian Victoria Cross recipients List of Canadian Victoria Cross recipients New featured portals: Military of Greece New A-Class articles: 2007 United States Air Force nuclear weapons incident Battle of the Gebora Battle of Vaslui Le Quang Tung Morotai Mutiny Phan Dinh Phung Truong Dinh USS Illinois (BB-65) Viet Nam Quoc Dan Dang Yen Bai mutiny
Current proposals and discussions A proposal to introduce a project motto is being discussed. A discussion regarding flag icons in biographical infoboxes has begun.
Awards and honors Mike Christie was awarded the WikiChevrons with Oak Leaves in recognition of his outstanding work on Anglo-Saxon military history, including the production of numerous featured articles.
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Timur

The quotations for Timur related topics are given below, if you check these articles, you'll see that each of them have "Additional Reading" sections, there given the primary sources for these articles. Encyclopedias reflect the consice compilations of the published works of mainstream scholars. If you ask for the books, see the 6th and 7th references below.

1."Timurids", in Encyclopædia Britannica, Online Edition, 2007. Qotation: "Timurid dynasty (fl. 15th–16th century AD), Turkic dynasty descended from the conqueror Timur (Tamerlane), renowned for its brilliant revival of artistic and intellectual life in Iran and Central Asia."

2."Babur", in Encyclopædia Britannica, Online Edition, 2007. Quotation: "Babur came from the Barlas tribe of Mongol origin, but isolated members of the tribe had become Turks in language and manners through long residence in Turkish regions. Hence Babur, though called a Mughal, drew most of his support from Turks, and the empire he founded was Turkish in character."

3."Central Asia, history of Timur", in Encyclopædia Britannica, Online Edition, 2007., Quotation: "... Timur first united under his leadership the Turko-Mongol tribes located in the basins of the two rivers...."

4."Islamic world", in Encyclopædia Britannica, Online Edition, 2007. Quotation: "Timur (Tamerlane) was a Turk, not a Mongol; but he aimed to restore Mongol power. He was born a Muslim in the Syrdarya valley and served local pagan Mongol warriors and finally the Chagatai heir-apparent; but he rebelled and made himself ruler in Khwarezm in 1380. He planned to restore Mongol supremacy under a thoroughly Islamic program."

5."Timur", The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. 2001-05. Quotation:"Timur or Tamerlane, c.1336–1405, Mongol conqueror, b. Kesh, near Samarkand. He is also called Timur Leng . He was the son of a tribal leader, and he claimed (apparently for the first time in 1370) to be a descendant of Jenghiz Khan. With an army composed of Turks and Turkic-speaking Mongols, remnants of the empire of the Mongols, Timur spent his early military career in subduing his rivals in what is now Turkistan; by 1369 he firmly controlled the entire area from his capital at Samarkand...."

6. Gérard Chaliand, Nomadic Empires: From Mongolia to the Danube translated by A. M. Berrett, Transaction Publishers, 2004. (see p.75)

7. Jean-Paul Roux's "Historie des Turks - Deux mille ans du Pacifique á la Méditerranée", Librairie Arthème Fayard, 2000" or Gérard Chaliand's book "Les Empires nomades de la Mongolie au Danube, Librairie Académique Perrin, 1995".

Please check these sources before complaining. Regards. E104421 11:59, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Timurid dynasty

You still have no consensus on the talk page of Timurid dynasty to chnage the lead. Britinca is a tertiary sources, and as I explained to you in details, PRIMARY sources by known academics that take the mainstream position that Timur was a Mongol, and in Misplaced Pages primary sources outweight tertiary sources. Pleae try to get a consensus with other users on the talk page of the artcile, instead of trying to impose your version by edit-waring.--07fan 07:00, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

By the way, if we go with the logic that linguistic adoption makes the Timurids were simply "Turko-Mongols" instead of Mongols, then one could apply the same logic to Seljuqs, and say that they were simply "Turko-Persians", not Turks. But this is not academically sound, Timurids were Mongols in origin, just as Seljuqs were Turkic in origin, in spite of their adopted languages and cultures. As you can see this is a controversial topic that is prone to personal interpretations and views, and it's a clear-cut case, so please allow further discussions and input by others on the talk pages of the articles, to find a broad agreement and a new consensus.--07fan 08:50, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Seems that this kind of discussions belong to the article's Talk, not a message board for individual members. Without getting into the middle of the dispute, the race/ethnicity of mother-father question may be completely irrelevant, the dynasties are classified by their language and people they rule. In this example, Cathrine the Great of Russia is not a German, though her mother-father/grandmother-grandfather were Germans, but she and her dynasty was Russian because her public language was Russian, and she ruled Russians. Because Chagatai had only 4,000 Mongols at his disposal to colonize the Chagatai ulus, a talk about Mongol component in the Timur domain is superficial, Timur did not rule a Mongol state. Note that Russian historiography never refer to Cathrine the Great as a German dynasty, it is a firmly Russian dynasty. Barefact 10:34, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Ili river treaty

Dear E104421, I received a Wikified comment for Ili river treaty, would you please look at it and help with wikifaction. The contents comment is fair in respect that the article should be illustrated with a map showing Western Turkic Kaganate and Eastern Turkic Kaganate states after the treaty. Would you please assist in adding the map(s). Barefact 10:16, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Consensus

Why did you ignore my comments, and made blind reverts to the Timurids again? Please read Misplaced Pages:Consensus, and try to to engage other editors on the talk page and get a consensus instead of imposing your version by edit-waring.--07fan 12:50, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

And here is one of many sources that explicitly calls Timur a Mongol and his dynasty a Mongolian dynasty who only spoke Turkic:

Encyclopedia of Asian History: "Although Timur was a descendant of a Mongolian tribe, he and his followers, like the other members of the Mongol ruling class in western Asia, spoke Turkic." --07fan 13:02, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

• You ignored all the sources i presented to you. These were the primary sources. In addition, i provided the quotations. You're still removing the sources and pushing your POV. In[REDACTED] verifiability is important. Regards. E104421 17:07, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Signpost updated for December 3rd, 2007.

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1213

kardeş niye altay dili ailesinin haritasını koyuyosun? ne alakası var türklerle? diler hakkında araştırma yapacak biri zaten onu gorurki kendi sayfasında--88.233.178.240 (talk) 14:27, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

• The introductory paragraph mentions the Altaic hypothesis. For this reason, it's informative. Btw, please get yourself a WP:ACCOUNT. Regards. E104421 (talk) 16:31, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

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Anatolian rock Omega/Status Quo

I returned Omega and Status Quo to the list of influences, as you had mentioned. Thanks for brining it to my attention. Lazulilasher (talk) 01:04, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

• Thank you for your notification. I already commented on the talk/discussion page of Anatolian Rock. Cordial Regards. E104421 (talk) 11:39, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

the problem

the problem with your edits is that you remove stuff..like the external link. Anyhow I disagree with the ordering and removal of external link. You said you will mention any changes in the talkpage. For good faith I am r.v.'ing to your edit but the ordering and external link is going to be put back in there. But please discuss your edits in the talkpage. I ahve done this as you can see. Regards.--alidoostzadeh (talk) 18:55, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

• As i wrote it in the edit summary, i did not remove the external link, just move it up into the cited reference, since you already used that T.Lenz reference above. There is no need to dublicate the entries. I explained everything in the edit summary. Regards. E104421 (talk) 18:59, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

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