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	Barack Obama is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Misplaced Pages community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.
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Photograph

I, for one, would like to see a better picture of him for the top of the article. The current one reminds me of a bad driver's license photo. 75.16.248.253 (talk) 05:46, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Pronunciation

I added the pronunciation of Barack in the opening section and it was removed (with the comment 'Why?'). Since I often hear people - even BBC news reporters - refer to him wrongly as , I thought it was a useful addition to the article.--Sdoerr (talk) 18:30, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Changed it to English pronunciation. kwami (talk) 03:02, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

A bit more family back ground please

For those of us who would be spared 3-5 hours of surfing if it is simply included here, let me suggest that some more info on this guy's father (a Senior Official in the Financial Section of the Government of Kenya with a Harvard Phd, which I guess means that he should be identified as Dr. Obama, best guess I have is that he is sort of notable and maybe should have his own biog). For the sake of simplicity somewhere (maybe just here in the discussion if it offends everybody's sensibilities) a very brief almost maybe just a statistical mention maybe just the names and numbers and dates for his mother's family slaves, (especially answering the question: did his mother's family still own their slave/s in 1863 ? I.e. at the time of Lincoln's Proclamation), Maybe it is irrelevant however if someone whose mother's family owned slaves(and his father's family--being East African Muslims of some wealth-- likely also owned slaves) is put forward as a great representative of the African American Equality movement despite being the descendant of their opressors, perhaps he or someone else needs to deal with the issues of him being a wolf in sheep's clothing sort of thing here. John5Russell3Finley 23:05, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Your rant is not all all relevent to this article (or the discussion of the article for that matter). Please see Misplaced Pages is not a soapbox for further explanation. --Loonymonkey (talk) 01:27, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Dear Loonymonkey: The issues raised by John5Russell3Finley are valid issues for discussion. The article is written as an advertisement for Obama. There is no criticism of him and inconvenient facts about him are completely left out of removed entirely. At one time, there was information about Obama attending a Muslim-centered elementary school when very young, but that information has been removed. This article does not have balance. It puts a halo on Obama's head. Now, I don't necessarily agree with everything that John5Russell has written, but your flippant dismissal of his comments is inappropriate.--InaMaka (talk) 16:52, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Except, InaMaka, that there is information about the false rumor regarding his attendance at a Muslim school as a child in Jakarta - read the Presidential campaign section. (And Loonymonkey is correct that the talk page is for constructive discussion of ways to edit the article, not a place to vent someone's own personal POV agenda as the previous commenter was doing.) Tvoz |talk 17:09, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

I did not state that Obama attended a Muslim school. I stated that he attended a "Muslim-centered" school. According the outside article that is referenced in this article, Obama was listed as "Muslim" on his paperwork and child that were considered Muslim--whether they were or not--were encouraged to practice Islam. So, no, what you stated above is incorrect. I was not repeating the "false rumor." I am stating facts that are not in the article. Also, John5Russell3finley has a right to express his opinion whether you or Loonymonkey agrees with that opinion or not. Now, his comments can and should be worked into the article if John5 has outside reliable sources to back up his claims. And, once again, the comments of another editor should not be dismissed out of hand by Looneymonkey or any other editor. That is not in line with Misplaced Pages process.--InaMaka (talk) 20:06, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Actually, no. He doesn't "have a right to express his opinion," at least not in a Misplaced Pages article. NPOV is one of the core prinicipals of Misplaced Pages as well as the fact that Misplaced Pages is not a soapbox. There are plenty of places out there on the internet in which one can rant to their heart's delight about whatever opinions and theories they patched together during "3-5 hours of surfing" but this isn't one of them. --Loonymonkey (talk) 20:20, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

No. Not true. You don't like what he stated, but that has nothing to do whether he has a right to express an opinion. He did suggest changes to the article. Now, you don't like those suggestions, but whether you agree with the suggestions or not does not negate his right to express opinion on those changes. Now, there are plenty of places out there on the Internet where you can go to express your dislike of his opinion, but that does not negate his right to express his opinion about changes to the article. You don't like his opinion, but that is not the criteria that Misplaced Pages is based upon. Also, Obama attended a school as a child that described Obama as "Muslim" and that school did encourage children that were classified as "Muslim" to practice Islam, whether they were really Muslim or not and those facts have been removed from the article. So, yes, the article does place a halo on his head. It does not touch on facts that might be considered by some to be negative and it does not provide substantive criticisms of his opinions and work, which almost all bios have--as long as those criticisms fall within the rules of BLP. So to sum up, John5 expressed his opinion on a substantive change to the article, which is his right, and then you stated that he is on a soapbox, which he was not, because apparently you did not like his suggestion. Now, we don't know if those changes are valid or should be implemented because he did not outline what he wanted the changes to and he did not provide reliable sources to back up his claims, but that is another issue. I'm not even sure that I agree with his premise, but we can't have people running around throwing out the soapbox claim without more evidence. That does not agree with the premise of Misplaced Pages.--InaMaka (talk) 21:16, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Really? What specific changes did he propose to the article? I've just re-read the rant that started this whole thread and I still can't figure out what he is actually proposing for the article. There's something about Obama being a "wolf in sheep's clothes" because his mother's ancestors may have owned slaves but that's just conjecture. There isn't any new (or credible) information given and there aren't any suggestions for how this opinion would be incorporated into the article. There's no point in going back and forth here. This talk page is for discussing proposed changes to the article. Complaining that ones own opinions aren't represented in the article isn't a proposed change, it's just a rant. --Loonymonkey (talk) 22:18, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Once again, you are wrong.--InaMaka (talk) 23:19, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

(outdent)That a great-great-great-great-grandfather on his mom's side owned two slaves and, based on some uncorroborated generalization based on his father's family's religion, geographical origin, and wealth, that a distant ancestor on his father's side may, or may not, have owned slaves. All in all, nothing to see here, best to let it drop and move on, Loonymonkey. You're just feeding the trolls. --Bobblehead 22:38, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

No, Bobblehead, I'm not a troll. However, if you would like to get into a match where we call each names I don't think that is within the rules of Misplaced Pages. I have suggested a change to the article. Obama attended a public school that provided time for students to engage in religious activity. He was characterized as "Muslim" whether he really was or not. That information should be in the article.--InaMaka (talk) 23:19, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

1) Please add more info about Obama Sr and his family.

John5Russell3Finley (talk) 22:56, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

2) A statement that Sen. Obama comes from a Slaveholding family who were dispossed of some of their slaves under the emancipation proclamation seems to me justified given Oprah Winfrey's Performance on TV Today, which was really spread very thickly on the News especially 10 Dec 2007 PBS News Hour. I think this belongs in the Cultural and political imagesection. Its controvercial nature makes it more relevant and the man bites dog performance from Oprah Winfrey makes this very clear as of Today. John5Russell3Finley (talk) 00:31, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Regarding Point 2): I do not agree that anyone living today should have to suffer comments about the actions their ancestors 5 generations back. They are somewhat interesting anecdotes; that is all. They are pointless in (brief) encyclopedic articles that appear on Misplaced Pages, except, possibly, for someone who descended from royalty. Anecdotes about former slaveholding ancestors of current public figures are appropriate for "entertainment-news" stories on CNN, FoxNews, Oprah, and in book-length biographies - not here. (If you were interviewing for a job, do you think it is appropriate for a prospective employer to consider information about the actions of your maternal great-great-grandfather?) Charvex (talk) 08:38, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

race

Where is the discussion of race on the talk page? Shouldn't he be labeled Multiracial instead of African American? He is not black or white. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 06:48, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

The U.S. Senate Historical Office considers him to be African-American. (Formerly, this was attributed to that office rather than stated directly by Misplaced Pages itself; I'm not sure why that change was made, but presumably it's because of a lack of contention and a desire to keep the lead section simple.) He's considered African-American in addition to being multiracial because being an African-American is not conceived of as "all-or-nothing": it means that you are an American with recent African heritage, not that your ancestors have all been exclusively 100% African-American or black (a standard by which even Al Sharpton couldn't be considered African-American). If an American with 50% Kenyan ancestry is not African-American, than what about one with 75% Kenyan ancestry? 99%? Where do you draw the line? In any case, this seems to be the standard usage; our Halle Berry article, for example, lists her as "the first African-American woman to receive a Best Actress Academy Award", even though her mother was white. -Silence (talk) 21:43, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

In the US it's based on self-identification, there is no line to draw. However I couldn't find a source for his self-identification. Personally, I think it's a very racist attitude to say that pure European ancestry is white, and any part African is black (aka African American). Clinton's article doesn't call her a European-American. Well if the Senate page says he's African American, then he is. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 23:15, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

First off, "black" is not a synonym for "African-American", as commonly used (especially in a text intended for international readers, like Misplaced Pages). That may be the main source of your problem: pretty much no one disputes that Obama is African-American, but there is more controversy over whether he is "black", because of the many complex connotations of that term in U.S. society. "African-American" and other heritage designators are not mutually exclusive, unlike "white" and "black": it is entirely possible to be both "African-American" and an "Asian-American", for example. (Indeed, we have Tiger Woods categorized under both Category:African American sportspeople and Category:Asian American sportspeople; whether he or Obama are "black" is something of a nonissue, and not for Misplaced Pages to unilaterally decide.) Clinton's article doesn't call her a European-American because third-party sources do not make note of that, whereas they regularly make note of Obama's heritage. -Silence (talk) 05:16, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

middle name

If Hillary Rodham Clinton is the title of hillary's page why isn't Hussein in the title page of Barack's.RYNORT 04:14, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Because she uses "Hillary Rodham Clinton" as her name. That's why the page is "George W. Bush" not "George Walker Bush". And that's why this page is "Barack Obama". Tvoz |talk 05:16, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Tvoz got the answer right, but just something to point out: You do realize that Hillary's middle name isn't 'Rodham', right? That it's 'Diane'? And so the reason that Obama's middle name isn't in the article title is precisely the same as the reason that Hillary's isn't in her own article's title. (hence Hillary Rodham Clinton, not Hillary Diane Rodham Clinton) 209.90.135.57 (talk) 19:33, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

No Tvoz is correct to assert that HRC's middle name is Rodham. Its common practice to for women to replace their middle names with their maiden names, when they take their husbands last name, which is what HRC did in 1982. thanks Astuishin (talk) 07:56, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Photo byline quoting estimate by campaign staff

The text below the picture says "Obama's campaign estimates 20,000 people attended this event", with a source of two separate news articles, both giving only Senator Obama and his campaign as sources of the attendance numbers. In the first instance, it specifically states the number is an estimate given by the campaign. In the second, Senator Obama is quoted as mentioning crowds of 20,000 in his stump speeches. Should what Senator Obama tells supporters during stump speeches or an estimate by his campaign be considered encyclopedic? Crowd estimates are notoriously skewed depending on who you ask, supporters or the opposition, on this I hope we all agree. I think the text below the picture would be better left as just the first sentence, "Supporters at a campaign rally in Austin, Texas, on 23 February 2007", which is factual and verifiable.

I removed "continues to draw large crowds" below the same picture not six months ago (large? larger than what?), though I guess someone really wants to quote those two news articles which repeat the campaign and Senator Obama mentioning crowds of 20,000. I'm sorry, I just don't think that either of them are an unbiased source for that information, nor, speaking towards the number being verifiable, do I trust the reporter (from one of the two sources) who repeatedly referred to a standing senator as "Mr.Obama". Revolen (talk) 19:21, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

I think that's a good call. I dislike a lot of extra information and/or opinions being put in picture captions anyway. Redddogg (talk) 19:32, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Condensed caption. --HailFire (talk) 19:57, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

First black president

I took this sentence out of the intro:

If elected, Obama would become the first black U.S. president.

I think that there are several problems with it. For one thing WP is not a crystal ball. This alone prevents us from making statements about what might happen in the future, if I understand the policy correctly. Secondly, although in the USA most people would consider Senator Obama "black", some people would not and in Africa and other parts of the world he would not be considered "black." The third reason is that probably some of the other presidents probably had black ancestors too, so they might be called "black" under the One drop rule. I have heard this said about President Buchanan, but couldn't find an online reference that said so. I think I read it in the book Before the Mayflower. I will also check out Senator Clinton's article and see if it says she will be the first female president. BTW someone pointed out the Secretary of State Rice might end up being president in 2008 if Bush and a couple of others die. That would beat 'em both. :-) Steve Dufour (talk) 05:56, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Hillary's campaign article says: "No woman has ever been nominated by a major party to run for President in the history of U.S. presidential elections." I went ahead and put the same kind of sentence here and in the campaign article. Steve Dufour (talk) 06:12, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

I utterly disagree with this here and on the campaign article and have reinstated the text. This is not a crystal ball matter at all - I think you misunderstand the guideline. This is a true, sourced statement, not a prediction. Use common sense, please. The point about Obama not being black is not worthy of answering has been responded to many times on the talk pages of this article, and Wasted's point about Rice was facetious - and it would be Bush, Cheney, Pelosi and Byrd before we got to Rice: we'll worry about that when the time comes. Tvoz |talk 06:55, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

How is the point about Obama not being black "not worthy of answering"? His mother is white, his father is black.

Some would say that makes him black. Some would say it means he isn't. I can't say I care either way, but it's certainly inappropriate to dismiss it as an issue entirely.

Though I don't presume this was your intention, you certainly implied, "of course he's black. There's no way a reasonable person could ever believe anything else", which, of course, would be combative, uncooperative, and unprofessional. (Again, I don't presume this was your intention; merely how it looked.) 209.90.135.57 (talk) 18:41, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Sorry guys. I see that the consensus is against me so I will not argue about this anymore. I still think a statement about what might happen in the future does not belong in an encyclopedia article. I also didn't mean to say that everybody who says Obama is not "black" is unreasonalbe. I am an American over 50, having grown up in segregated America, so to me he is certainly "black", or "negro" as we said back then. To younger people he might be "mixed race" however. Cheers to all. Steve Dufour (talk) 19:11, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

"Combative, uncooperative and unprofessional"? In that case, I modified my intemperate comment above to remind Steve that the point has been discussed many times here, as I believe he might recall. I will change the sentence in the article to read "African American" in place of "black", although if you'll look at African American, you'll see in the first line that the terms, in America, are more or less interchangeable. And, in my opinion, this is a lot of smoke over a non-issue. Tvoz |talk 20:12, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Latin Language interwiki

Latin Misplaced Pages (i.e. Vicipaedia) now has an entry for Barack Obama. Please add the following interwiki to this page: ]. Thanks, 71.208.238.48 (talk) 18:45, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Added here. --HailFire (talk) 21:27, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Barack HUSSEIN Obama?

I doubt this is correct! Why should he have the same surname as Saddam Hussein (unless he is Saddams son of course)? Solomon Stein (talk) 21:47, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, Hussein is Barack's middle name. By the way, Hussein is not Saddam's surname - Arabic naming conventions differ from Western conventions. Hussein was Saddam's father's name.--Rise Above The Vile 21:54, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

added dug specifics

added the part about how he said he used drugs to help him in his book.RYNORT 22:08, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the information you added was both factually and grammatically incorrect. --Loonymonkey (talk) 02:04, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Comment on complaint about lack of criticism section, which was removed just before I hit "Save page"

I am a Republican who likes Senator Obama, but probably will not vote for him. I would much prefer to read an article telling the positive points about someone. Of course criticism should be mentioned but it shouldn't be the major thing. I would like to see the other articles more like this one rather than the other way around. Steve Dufour (talk) 05:35, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Where is the Obama Criticism section?

GO ahead, censor my post again, I'll just repost it. You wont stop me, unless you ban me. But why would you ban me? Because You will not include a section that other candidates have? BIAS! Misplaced Pages has a terrible reputation, and the hawks here are proof. I speak for A LOT of people. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.18.63.188 (talk) 05:43, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

I believe this is the IP of RYNORT (talk · contribs), who has constantly been warned for POV pushing. See my ] and the one below it for more info. I will again issue words of caution to him. /Blaxthos ( t / c ) 20:28, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Political Positions?

As I assume most people would, I can here looking for an enumeration of his political positions. I find it beyond strange that there is none. The closest thing I could find is the statement that he took the opposing position to Alan Keys on a number of issues. Erikmartin (talk) 17:48, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

His positions are located at Political positions of Barack Obama. --Bobblehead 17:54, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Parity with Hillary Clinton Misplaced Pages site?

I'm not a political partisan but love presidential politics - particularly during incumbency change. In that light, I see a stark distinction between the Hillary Clinton website and the Obama Wiki site (as well as other candidate sites). So, I'm wondering if there is parity between the authorship agreements between all candidate sites. My impression is that the Clinton writers crafted her Wiki site to have no edges. This quality is not the same for the Obama Wiki site, for example (IMHO). Is it possible that Wiki editors are developing the Clinton Wiki to be superior to the Obama (Edwards, Romney, McCain, and Giuliani) Wiki(s)? If you review all of the comments in all the major candidate Wiki's - one can understand the general principle of this assertion. But then again, who has time to do that aside from junkies like me ... Oxford Den (151.197.127.231 (talk) 04:23, 20 December 2007 (UTC)). (Oxfordden (talk) 19:42, 20 December 2007 (UTC))

• Well, there's no distinction between "writers" and "editors" here. What changes or improvements would you suggest? You can make them on your own, of course. --jpgordon 05:01, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Jpgordon, many of the political Wiki sites have restrictions on editing. As I'm truly unfamiliar with the hierarchy of who can restrict the editing I just want to point out hte disparity. On some sites, my (well referenced) comments continue to be removed by the 'owner'. Perhaps I'll have to spend some time reading about how that works ... thanx .... OxfordDen (151.197.127.231 (talk) 13:22, 20 December 2007 (UTC)) ... (Oxfordden (talk) 19:41, 20 December 2007 (UTC))

Misplaced Pages does not have "owners" of articles, it's actually prohibited here. However, this article is currently semi-protected, which means IP editors (such as yourself) and new users can not currently edit the article. You are more than welcome to post suggestions on the talk page, or if you have a specific edit that you'd like to make, just post it here with an explanation of where in the article you'd like it. --Bobblehead 16:25, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

I would make a wild guess that there are more Obama supporters here on WP than those of any other candidate. Even if this article is not "owned" it is well defended against attacks by Republicans or fans of Hillary. :-) Steve Dufour (talk) 21:01, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

I just checked out Hillary Clinton article and it does seem to be better written. On the other hand, it contains far more negative information than this one. Steve Dufour (talk) 21:10, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, Hillary has been in the national public eye for a lot longer and accumulated a lot more negative things than Obama has. Not to worry, I'm sure Barack will start piling them up soon enough. --Bobblehead 21:16, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Then again, she is running on "experience" not "nice person-ness" :-) Steve Dufour (talk) 06:46, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

BTW Alan Keyes, although a minor candidate, has a very nice WP article and Wikiquote page. Steve Dufour (talk) 15:14, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Views on Israel

I believe that Obama's views on the USA's relationship with Israel should be mentioned. He has made a few comments, such as those detailed in this piece (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,269112,00.html) that bring his support for Israel into question. Maybe under a "Controversies" section?69.212.65.64 (talk) 19:44, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Or even better.. How about in an article called Political positions of Barack Obama in a section called Arab-Israeli conflict. Oops, already done.;) --Bobblehead 19:50, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

African American?

The claim that Barack Obama is the only African American currently serving in the United States Senate is wrong and clearly contradicts the section on his parents. His mother is white and his father is black and thus he can only be half African American. I think it is disgraceful and racist to claim that he is African American when clearly his heritage is BOTH Caucasian AND African. This section of the article should be changed for clarity, consistence, and correctness. —Preceding unsigned comment added by LocalMoth (talk • contribs) 07:34, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

This has already been discussed here a hundred times or more. He, himself, identifies himself as an African American. One does not have to be 100% "black" or of African ancestry to be one. Steve Dufour (talk) 11:55, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Here is the intro to African American:

African Americans or black Americans are citizens or residents of the United States who have origins in any of the black racial groups of Africa. In the United States the term is generally used for Americans with sub-Saharan African ancestry. Most African Americans are the descendants of captive Africans who survived slavery within the boundaries of the present United States, although some are—or are descended from—voluntary immigrants from Africa, the Caribbean, South America, or elsewhere.

It sounds to me that that includes Barack since he "has origins" and "ancestry" from the "black racial groups" of "sub-Saharan Africa." Steve Dufour (talk) 12:07, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

And actually, LocalMoth, in any case he wouldn't be 'Caucasian', as that is a very specific ethnic classification for people from the Caucasus mountain region, not applicable to all so-called 'white' people (which itself is a spurious classification). Only in the United States do we use that term - and true to form we use it in utter ignorance to its actual meaning.Godheval (talk) 04:14, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

... and the WP page on Caucasian race (Oxfordden (talk) 14:32, 27 December 2007 (UTC))

Barack Obama on The Today Show 12-21-07

On December 21, 2007 Barack Obama appeared on The Today Show.

That kind of thing is part of his job. However, his article can not mention everything he does. Only if he says something that other media comment on and it seems important. Steve Dufour (talk) 15:41, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Minor comment

Might be good to introduce Michelle Obama (when she's first mentioned in the text) as his wife. Something along the lines of "Obama met his future wife Michelle Robinson in 1988". I know it's in the caption, but some people might not read the caption. Also, could the caption be fleshed out a bit more? Where are they in that photo? 69.202.60.86 (talk) 23:30, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Good call. I went ahead and followed your first suggestion. I think it sounds a little more dignified for an encyclopedia article. I will check out the picture too. Steve Dufour (talk) 14:53, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Is this sentence really needed?

Of his early childhood, Obama writes: "That my father looked nothing like the people around me—that he was black as pitch, my mother white as milk—barely registered in my mind."

I have the feeling that it was put in to introduce the fact that his mother was white and his father black. What Obama is saying here is the same as any child would feel. There is nothing remarkable or even interesting that it should take up space in the article. Steve Dufour (talk) 15:33, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

I see that the consensus here is that this (to me anyway) weird sentence is better than just saying what "races" his parents were. Steve Dufour (talk) 18:30, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

About Race and Culture

Note to everyone - in particular Steve Dufour - I have repeatedly removed the classifications "white" and "black" from Obama's parents for several reasons. The first is that the portion of the article in question is discussing the cultural diversity that influenced Obama's surroundings while he grew up. Race and culture are separate things. Race is a false construct created by racists to justify categorizing people in ways that do not correspond to their biological or cultural identities. But that's another and longer conversation. The point is that by simply stating that Obama's mother is American and his father Kenyan, the point of his diverse cultural background is expressed without bringing the arbitrary construction of race into the picture. There IS a difference between race and ethnicity, and ethnicity is what is relevant here. Godheval (talk) 04:14, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree with you that "race" is a false construct created by racists. However, in the world we live in it is considered an important thing. One of the things that Senator Obama is noted for is his background of mixed "race", not just mixed culture. People coming to this article, and some will come from outside of the USA and not know much about him, will want some information on his "racial" background. I think it is important that the article explain this right away. As I said in my edit summary (I will not edit this sentence again) the words "black" and "white" are not offensive to most people and are the simplest way to give them the information they want. Not all Kenyans are "black" (99% according to its article) and not all Americans are "white." Also, as I mentioned before I find it offensive when people say "American" and expect that to be understood as "white American." Merely saying that Senator Obama's mother was an American could create the impression that this is being said. Steve Dufour (talk) 17:09, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

I believe the races should be retained and a single word for each parent is appropriate weight and prominence. To say race is invented by racists is silly - we also group people by hair colour, but few people are prejudice against redheads. It would be one thing if it were completely immaterial, but Obama's racial background is frequently commented on as a unique characteristic among nominees past and present. Whether or not a point ought to be made of it, this has a big impact on his campaign and is necessary to mention. Dcoetzee 19:57, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. That is how I feel too. I am not going to put the words "black" and "white" back in the sentence since I have already done that 2 or 3 times. Steve Dufour (talk) 20:48, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Comment I have 3 basic objections to how the article deals with this topic now:

• It is offensive (to me anyway). It makes it look as if we are ashamed to say that his dad was black and his mom white, as if these were bad things to say.
• It doesn't serve the readers. Senator Obama is often noted for his mixed racial background. Readers, some of whom are not Americans and so are not following the news about the presidential campaign every day, want to know about this and it should be explained in a simple way, not that they have to read between the lines.
• It goes against Obama himself. He considers himself a black American, not a multi-ethnic, multi-cultural New Man.

If I am wrong please explain why to me. Thanks. Steve Dufour (talk) 13:51, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

December 2007 drop in poll numbers

Are the end of December 2007 drop in poll numbers reported by the Concord Monitor and Des Moines register of importance. the Monitoe cites a percieved unwillngness to engage Mrs, clinton or Republican rivals.Will his lining up behind President Bush on the assisantion of Mrs Bhutto, rather than charging the administration's foreign policy as a part of this an example? CApitol3 (talk) 03:17, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

These newspapers have a right to express their opinions. However the result of the caucuses is what will be notable. Steve Dufour (talk) 19:38, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

WP:SYN

Regarding this reversion, what is the "position C" that is being advanced by including both position A and position B in this article? WP:SYN says that "Editors often make the mistake of thinking that if A is published by a reliable source, and B is published by a reliable source, then A and B can be joined together in an article to advance position C." Can't A and B be presented in this article without joining them together to advance position C?Ferrylodge (talk) 04:57, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Anyway, I think the problem is fixed now to everyone's satisfaction. A single source is now used to support the statement in the text of the article.Ferrylodge (talk) 05:09, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

And thank you for showing why Misplaced Pages does not use unreliable sources in BLPs. The source you provided was an extremely edited version of an AP article and the editing failed to expand upon why Obama was critical of the need to filibuster Alito. --Bobblehead 05:28, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Bobblehead, I see that you don't want to include the USA Today reference that I had inserted. I don't understand why.

May I ask you to please remove the redundant links to the US Senate cloture vote on Alito in the footnotes?

Also, you have inserted the language, "While the filibuster was unseccessful, Obama had previously predicted that the tactic would fail and criticized Democrats for making filibustering necessary by failing to convince the American public of the dangers Alito to their civil rights."

Would you please kindly correct the spelling of the word "successful"? And, shouldn't there be some sort of verb after the word "Alito"? Additionally, you say that this material is supported by the first paragraph of the article. But I don't see anything in the first paragraph of the article that says a filibuster is needed or necessary. The first paragraph of the article says, "To better oppose Supreme Court nominees, Democrats need to convince the public 'their values are at stake' rather than use stalling tactics, said Sen. Barack Obama, who opposes Samuel Alito's confirmation." Thus, he said that convincing the public is needed, not that filibusters are needed.Ferrylodge (talk) 05:45, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Explained on your talkpage. --Bobblehead 05:47, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

No, it is not, but I invite you to explain, either here or at my talk page.Ferrylodge (talk) 05:54, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

But for further explanation, all three sources are edited versions of the same AP article, with the Sun-Times article seeming to do the better job of explaining what Obama is saying, including quotes from Obama that expand upon why he thinks the filibuster is necessary for Alito and why the need to filibuster Alito is a failure by the Democrats to explain why Alito is "A Bad Thing

Would you please correct the spelling and the subject-predicate disagreement, and delete the redundant link to the roll call vote? And where does the Sun-Times article say one word about a filibuster being "needed" or "necessary"? The first paragraph says that convincing the public is needed or necessary. It does not say that filibusters are needed or necessary. Quite the contrary: the article says Obama "agreed that it was not particularly wise" to conduct a filibuster.Ferrylodge (talk) 06:06, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for making some of the corrections I suggested. I have taken the liberty of correcting the spelling. Where does the Sun-Times article say one word about a filibuster being "needed" or "necessary"? The first paragraph says that convincing the public is needed or necessary. It does not say that filibusters are needed or necessary. Quite the contrary: the article says Obama "agreed that it was not particularly wise" to conduct a filibuster.Ferrylodge (talk) 06:29, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Bobblehead, I see that you've reworded the thing again. I appreciate that you're putting effort into this. Thanks. The material in the article now seems to be accurate. However, I think it's verbose, and it perhaps unintentionally is written in a POV way. Allow me to explain. First, I don’t know why you need both Obama quotes, when either of them gets the message across (the first being shorter), so it seems like verbosity could be considerably reduced here. Second, nothing that you’ve written includes any hint that Obama criticized the filibuster tactic (that criticism, after all, was the main message that USA Today got from the article). The Sun-Times version of the article (which you seem to prefer) says that Obama agreed with Biden that the filibuster was a “stalling tactic”, and “that it was not particularly wise,” but your sentences give no hint that Obama criticized the tactic. How come? Can't we say that he criticized the tactic?Ferrylodge (talk) 06:58, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Added that he criticized Dems for an over-reliance upon procedural maneuvers as requested. The reword with the second, more verbose quote was a result of your rephrasing and an attempt to incorporate it into a more accurate explanation as to what Obama was saying, but if you no longer want to incorporate the "win elections" bit, I can remove that. --Bobblehead 07:31, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Please don't keep the second, more verbose quote on my account.Ferrylodge (talk) 07:39, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Authored?

I think this has been brought up before, however:

He has authored two bestselling books...

This makes it sound like he did not really write them. I would guess that Herman Melville's article says that he wrote Moby Dick, not that he authored it. Steve Dufour (talk) 19:35, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

It's pretty widely-used wording on Misplaced Pages, Steve. Tvoz |talk 19:39, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Sadly. Steve Dufour (talk) 19:41, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Warning: Tirade I really feel that Senator Obama, who wants to be seen as an ordinary American who is working for the best interests of everyone in the country, and the potential readers of this article, who want to find out some basic information about him, would be better served if it was written in the plain, simple English language which most of us use. Without words like "authored" and "majority-minority". Thanks. I feel better now. :-) Steve Dufour (talk) 19:46, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Steve, is "authored" really a difficult word to understand? If you'll look back, you'll see you agreed in January that it was better than what we had previously as a heading, and it seems quite direct and clear to me, especially for a heading, but I myself don't have a problem with changing the first sentence in that section to "written", leaving "Books authored" as the header - but maybe others had a reason for that wording -we'll see. As for your other changes - I disagree as follows: we say (and properly wikilink) in the intro to just "Honolulu" because a few words later we say and link to Hawaii - your way is unnecessarily redundant; to say his father was "born into the Luo people" is very odd wording which doesn't seem preferable to referring to his father as Luo in context below as we have had it for a long time; "majority-minority" may not be instantly understood, but that's why it is wiki-linked, and it is an important concept that adds more valuable information than the tired "ethnically diverse" which doesn't add anything beyond the previous sentence's "culturally diverse" and is repetitive, too, with "multi-ethnic" a few words later in reference to Jakarta; similarly your removal of "describes his experiences growing up in his mother's middle class American family" leaving "Obama wrote about his experiences" takes away information that adds to our understanding and leaves a rather bland useless sentence - what else is a memoir other than writing about one's experiences?; taking out the reference to his father as "absent" removes important information and that's where the Luo mention makes sense. I just don't see that these changes improve the article at all, and in fact they seem to remove valuable information for no clear reason, so I've reinstated. Tvoz |talk 21:03, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

(ec)Unfortunately, encyclopedias are rarely written in simple English, but rather in an English that requires one to read the encyclopedia with a dictionary next to you. That's why there is a Simple English Misplaced Pages. Granted, many of the articles on the Simple English Misplaced Pages are lacking. --Bobblehead 21:08, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Just a thought, on the ethnicity of his father perhaps it could be worked into the first sentence something like this "(a Luo born in Nyanza Province, Kenya)"? Waiting until later to use the term Luo is a bit confusing because it isn't clear which father the term is in reference to, so by clarifying that Obama, Sr. is the Luo that confusion is rectified. --Bobblehead 21:25, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, I don't know - Soetero isn't referred to as his father or even stepfather anywhere in the article - the only "father", his father, is Obama Sr. It says he talks about his "absent Luo father" which is wikilinked and is fully explained in the footnote (now 17) at the end of that sentence, so is it really needed again a paragraph above? I don't feel strongly about this, but don't really see the need. Tvoz |talk 21:54, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

1. Alter, Jonathan (December 25 2006–January 1 2007). "Is America Ready?". Newsweek. Retrieved 2007-11-18. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
2. "Barack Obama on The Today Show". The Today Show. 21 December 2007. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)

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