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Revisions to the intro
So I remember that one was my edit and looking at the intro I think it is more balanced this way and all the content is still there... + I added the reference to Southern Africa for the sake of the context of the sources as the focus is on regions with extraordinarily high HIV rates. Sf89wei (talk)
- The sentence you edited is already problematic, as it is original research; none of the sources claim to be "circumcision advocates" "particularly" focussing on HIV as the main reason for it allegedly being a public health measure. The sources merely claim that circumcision reduces risk of HIV. That claim is cited repeatedly elsewhere. Your change does not address this. Any suggestions? Blackworm (talk) 23:44, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
- Again, when the original research argues in favor of circumcision, none of the gatekeepers here give a damn. Blackworm (talk) 01:18, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
Recent edits
Re this edit by Blackworm which "Restored some of Mahasona's edits, removed anonIP's vandalism, rephrased some statements to better match sources": I would like "Several hypotheses have been suggested:" to be restored because it organizes the material to guide the reader; and I would like "statistically significant" and "significantly" to be restored as these have important mathematical meanings. --Coppertwig (talk) 00:29, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
- It's incorrect to describe unrelated findings as hypotheses lending weight to a previous conclusion. This seems to fall under WP:SYN. The information is already organized, the paragraph describes the relation between circumcision and other inflammations or infections from the ones previously described.
- As far as "significantly," the word has an entirely different meaning in statistics (the language of these papers) versus general prose, such as an encyclopedia. Basically, in statistics, "significant" means "not insignificant," i.e., not explained by random chance in all but the most extreme cases. This is definition 1 of . In general prose, it means, "very" or "much" -- definition 2 of same. In the sentence in question the word is used in a misleading way, once as "statistically significant" (weakening the finding, implying that there was a difference but it didn't meet some arbitrary threshold), and again only as "significant" (exaggerating the second finding). The authors of the study did not say (as to a layman), "it was significantly higher." They showed that there was no statistically significant difference in the case of HPV, and there was a statistically significant difference with urethritis. As an exercise, swap the phrases "statistically significant" and "significant" in the previous form of the sentence, and see how the POV shifts. I prefer a neutral POV, and a proper summary of the source. Blackworm (talk) 09:06, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
- Jakew, you changed the sentence to reinsert "statistically significant," weakening the finding of no link between HPV and circumcision. Your edit summary said, "'no statistically significant difference' is not quite the same as 'no difference'." That's true, it isn't quite the same, but I ask you -- if the difference is not significant enough to be called significant by the researchers, from a scientific point of view, why is the difference significant enough to you? In a scientific paper, a finding of no statistically significant difference is a finding of no difference. Period. That is science. Are we to start putting "statistically significant" before every finding of no difference between circumcised and uncircumcised men in every study cited by the article, or just the ones where we want to imply there is a difference? Blackworm (talk) 17:03, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
- it's not our job to assume that our readers are morons... i say leave "statistically significant" in since it is accurate. /Disorder 10:21, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
- I agree.
- The source states that "There was no significant difference in the incidence of HPV infection ... between uncircumcised and circumcised men", so we are simply reporting what it says. I am concerned by protests that this results in "weakening the finding": why would we want to present a stronger claim than that presented by the source? Jakew (talk) 12:14, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
- You tell me -- the previous summary indeed did, and I corrected it. It's unfortunate I don't have the time to check every source in the article, because 90% of the time that I do, the Misplaced Pages summary takes a more pro-circumcision stance than the source by misrepresenting its position in some way. But fine, I have no objection to this change -- I just think it's silly to insert "statistically significant" every time we report on a scientific paper finding no difference between two groups -- and it's POV to do it selectively since it injects doubt as to the finding. I will "correct" other instances of this elsewhere, I guess. Blackworm (talk) 17:53, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
- we can't deal with vague accusations of selective bias.... 67.164.220.177 (talk) 06:41, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
Sexual pleasure
This article has a section for external links. One of the sections under external links is called "Circumcision opposition". I added a link to Sex as Nature Intended It. A couple of hours later, Avraham reverted to the previous version, calling this a "minor" edit.
As the article currently stands, there is a section for external links that represent "Circumcision opposition". One of the main arguments to be made against male circumcision is that it reduces pleasure for both circumcised males and their female partners. None of the links under "Circumcision opposition" points this out; that's why I added the link to Sex as Nature Intended It. Thus, I think that the link I added is completely legitimate (especially given that it was in an advocacy category). If anyone disagrees, I'd like to hear reasons. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hyperion (talk • contribs) 07:44, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
- "On articles with multiple points of view, the number of links dedicated to one point of view should not overwhelm the number dedicated to other equal points of view, nor give undue weight to minority views." WP:EL#Avoid undue weight on particular points of view Jakew (talk) 12:05, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
- Exactly. And Hyperion, being that there is no little black m next to the reversion, from where did you get the idea that I called it minor? -- Avi (talk) 14:15, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
- Avi, there is a little black m next to your reversion. What are you smoking? -- Hyperion (talk) 18:54, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, you're correct. I did not realize that rollbacks automatically coded as minor. Sorry about that. -- Avi (talk) 19:59, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
- There are currently four links under "Circumcision opposition" and three links under "Circumcision promotion". Therefore, adding one more link to the former, to yield a 5:3 ratio, would hardly "overwhelm" the point of view promoting circumcision. Thus, it is clear that you are abusing this Misplaced Pages guideline in order to censor a point of view that makes you personally uncomfortable. And the view being represented hardly constitutes a "minority view". The only places where male circumcision is significantly practiced is America and the Muslim world. Therefore, it is the "circumcision promotion" category which is the minority view. Thus, a 5:3 ratio is entirely appropriate.
- A comment on Amazon about the book that this Web site summarizes states: "After reading several books on circumcision, if I could recommend only one book on the "c" word, this would be the one." Thus, this link is essential for Misplaced Pages readers to be properly informed about the current stated of the male circumcision debate. If you don't like this, find another link to put in the "promotion" section.
- Jakew, looking over earlier posts in the Talk page, I see you have been suppressing anti-circumcision points of view for some time time now. Give it up. -- Hyperion (talk) 18:54, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
- Having nearly twice the number of anti-circumcision links is a clear case of undue weight, Hyperion, and one cannot infer being opposed to something from not practicing it.
If you feel it is important to add this link, I suggest that you propose a way of doing so that does not imbalance the links.Jakew (talk) 12:32, 14 December 2007 (UTC) - I see Avi has removed the 'circumstitions.com' link, which is a satisfactory solution. I've removed the POV description of O'Hara's site. Jakew (talk) 12:39, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
- Having nearly twice the number of anti-circumcision links is a clear case of undue weight, Hyperion, and one cannot infer being opposed to something from not practicing it.
What a big joke. There's an entire section of "circumcision techniques" links which are obviously from groups which support, if not encourage circumcision, that no one is counting under the "pro-" links -- meanwhile, Avi, a circumcision advocate, picks the most convincing and grisly "anti-" circumcision link to be deleted for someone else to add a mild, warm and fuzzy link that isn't convincing at all. What a farce. Blackworm (talk) 18:32, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
HIV
I've once again reverted an addition to the HIV section, which had several problems:
- Currently, four sentences cover mainstream (WHO etc) views about circumcision and HIV. The addition dedicates an additional four sentences to minority viewpoints, effectively giving them undue weight.
- The citing of Thomas (one of the ~40 or so observational studies to date) is bizarre. If we're to discuss observational studies at all, it makes more sense to cite a systematic review of observational studies rather than any individual study.
- The text also gives the impression that Thomas is an example of an author who disagrees "that male circumcision reduces female to male transmission", yet the source makes no such statement (the conclusion is limited only to one particular population).
- Similarly, the citing of Talbott is inexplicable. There are several ecological studies, why this one in particular? Jakew (talk) 14:12, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
- The four sentences from the WHO (there is no "etc.") dominate the section (as they do the lead). There is room for opposing views without undue weight issues, and invoking WP:SUMMARY when someone is claiming violation of WP:NPOV seems misguided.
- This is not a valid argument against the edit. If you have such a systematic review of relevant observational studies, present it.
- I agree that the sentence that begins "Not all authorities..." is misplaced and should be removed.
- Again, not an argument against the edit.
- I support Nigelj's edit, with the exception that I believe the sentence "Not all authorities" should be deleted. Blackworm (talk) 00:36, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
- I thought maybe a single sentence could be inserted instead of the four sentences, and I read through the HIV section at Medical analysis of circumcision looking for material on which to base that single sentence. I wasn't able to come up with anything. The major publications that express doubt that circumcision helps against HIV were published before the controlled trials and apparently said that we can't conclude it helps until we get the results of the controlled trials. Now that we have those results, those views are no longer relevant or are difficult to interpret or to summarize in a sentence. --Coppertwig (talk) 02:21, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
- No longer relevant? I dispute that strongly. If I remember correctly, the controlled trials referenced by the WHO were halted. They were presumably scientific studies, with strict, predefined methodology, that were not carried out to their conclusion. To use "results" from incomplete trials is the prerogative of the WHO, or any group, and it certainly does not invalidate or render irrelevant studies on HIV and circumcision published previously or since. Most certainly, it does not render criticisms of the WHO's view irrelevant. What you are suggesting seem to be that we should exclude other studies from mention, because they contrast with the "mainstream" (i.e. WHO) view. That seems to me to be a violation of WP:NPOV. All of this WHO/UNAIDS stuff is recent scholarship at best; it is arguable that undue weight is given the WHO's current view given that it is a current event. That is most evident in the lead section. I suppose one could ask oneself, does the presentation of the WHO's view in the article read like a dry, factual description of their view, or does it read like an endorsement of that position? Remember that "undue weight" doesn't mean the majority view is presented as the correct view (if indeed the WHO's view represents a majority, a claim yet to be proven). Blackworm (talk) 09:16, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
- All three trials included one or more interim analysis stages in their protocols, in which the monitoring board assess the data and decide, among other things, whether to stop the trial. In the case of these particular trials, they were in fact stopped.
- Systematic reviews of observational studies include Weiss et al (including 27 studies) and Siegfried et al (including 37 studies). To quote from the full text of the latter's 'conclusions' (accessible at the Lancet's site via free registration):
- "The possibility exists that the observed results included in this review could be explained by confounding. Although the positive results of these observational studies suggest that circumcision is an intervention worth evaluating in randomised controlled trials, the current quality of evidence is insufficient to consider implementation of circumcision as a public-health intervention. Therefore, the results of the three randomised controlled trials underway will provide essential evidence about the effects of male circumcision as an intervention to prevent HIV infection." Jakew (talk) 12:37, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
- Also, please note that the WHO did not themselves 'decide' to use these results, but 'convened an international expert consultation', and 'Based on the evidence presented, which was considered to be compelling, experts attending the consultation recommended that male circumcision now be recognized as an additional important intervention to reduce the risk of heterosexually acquired HIV infection in men'.
- The systematic reviews of observational studies indicate that most observational studies found a protective effect, but that exceptions exist. Bearing this in mind, how can we justify citing only two such exceptions? How can this be anything other than undue weight? If we're to refer to observational studies at all in the limited space available (which seems questionable), then wouldn't it make more sense to refer to a systematic review which gives a broad overview? Jakew (talk) 13:49, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
- I had another look and this for example may still be of some relevance: "We found insufficient evidence to support an interventional effect of male circumcision on HIV acquisition in heterosexual men. " from the Cochrane thingamy. Blackworm, no, I'm not suggesting what it seemed to you that I was suggesting. I was talking about conclusions like the following, also from the same paragraph of the Cochrane whatchammy: "The results of will need to be carefully considered before circumcision is implemented as a public health intervention for prevention of sexually transmitted HIV." Written before the RCT results were around. Now that those results exist, it seems difficult to iterpret or summarize this statement. I'm not aware of any published criticisms of the position the WHO has taken based on the RCT results.
- (edit conflict) I propose the following edit. Insert "Earlier, meta-analyses of observational data differed as to whether there was evidence of a protective effect of circumcision against HIV." at the end of the first paragraph of "HIV and other sexually transmitted diseases". At the same time, to avoid lengthening the article, shorten the material on balanitis and balanoposthitis as follows: change this:
- No longer relevant? I dispute that strongly. If I remember correctly, the controlled trials referenced by the WHO were halted. They were presumably scientific studies, with strict, predefined methodology, that were not carried out to their conclusion. To use "results" from incomplete trials is the prerogative of the WHO, or any group, and it certainly does not invalidate or render irrelevant studies on HIV and circumcision published previously or since. Most certainly, it does not render criticisms of the WHO's view irrelevant. What you are suggesting seem to be that we should exclude other studies from mention, because they contrast with the "mainstream" (i.e. WHO) view. That seems to me to be a violation of WP:NPOV. All of this WHO/UNAIDS stuff is recent scholarship at best; it is arguable that undue weight is given the WHO's current view given that it is a current event. That is most evident in the lead section. I suppose one could ask oneself, does the presentation of the WHO's view in the article read like a dry, factual description of their view, or does it read like an endorsement of that position? Remember that "undue weight" doesn't mean the majority view is presented as the correct view (if indeed the WHO's view represents a majority, a claim yet to be proven). Blackworm (talk) 09:16, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
“ | The usual treatment for balanoposthitis is to use topical antibiotics (metronidazole cream) and antifungals (clotrimazole cream) or low-potency steroid creams.
Circumcision is sometimes used to treat balanitis, although there are less invasive treatments than circumcision that have been shown to be effective in treating most mild cases. The less invasive procedures are not as successful in treating balanitis xerotica obliterans, or BXO, which is much less common but harder to treat. Circumcision is believed to reliably reduce the threat of BXO. |
” |
- to this:
- to this:
“ | Circumcision is one treatment for balanitis. The usual treatment for balanoposthitis is to use topical antibiotics (metronidazole cream) and antifungals (clotrimazole cream) or low-potency steroid creams. | ” |
- The deleted material is already present, I believe, in the Medical analysis of circumcision article.
- The material I propose to insert can be supported by the following references, which will have to be formatted appropriately and possibly the first one replaced by a reference to the study it mentions: USAID
CochraneCochrane. --Coppertwig (talk) 14:34, 25 December 2007 (UTC)- Jakew, you make good points re the foundation of the WHO position. Looking at Medical analysis of circumcision I get the impression that there were two major meta-analyses of the observational data, which in my edit above I suggest citing. re WHO: are we (merely :-) citing WHO, or can we also (or do we already) cite the conference they base their recommendation on? --Coppertwig (talk) 14:39, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
- Coppertwig, I think that the essence of your edit is fine in principle, but I have a couple of concerns about the details.
- My first concern is that while one meta-analysis may provide some background information to the RCTs, I think it may be excessive to discuss two reviews of observational data. Given that the available space is limited, how much of it should we dedicate to "quality of evidence is insufficient", and how much to "essential evidence"?
- My second concern is that I think it is inaccurate to say that "Earlier, meta-analyses of observational data differed as to whether there was evidence of a protective effect of circumcision against HIV". Both Siegfried et al and Weiss et al reported finding that this evidence existed ("Although most studies show an association between male circumcision and prevention of HIV" - Siegfried, "Male circumcision is associated with a significantly reduced risk of HIV infection among men in sub-Saharan Africa, particularly those at high risk of HIV" - Weiss). However, Siegfried et al were concerned about whether the evidence was good enough to warrant implementing circumcision programmes: "these results may be limited by confounding, which is unlikely to be adjusted for ... the current quality of evidence is insufficient to consider implementation of circumcision as a public-health intervention."
- Although the following is too long, I think it is probably the best way to summarise:
- "In March 2005, Siegfried et al. reviewed 37 observational studies. Although most studies showed an association between circumcision and prevention of HIV, they found the quality of evidence available at the time insufficient to warrant implementation of circumcision as a public health intervention. They concluded that the results of the three randomised controlled trials then underway would therefore provide essential evidence about the effects of circumcision. The first of these trials..."
- Incidentally, I'm a little confused because you seem to have given the same (www.psi.org) link for both USAID and Cochrane references. Could you clarify whether this was your intent, and if not, what the links ought to be? Jakew (talk) 12:23, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
- Oh, sorry about the URL's. OK, we're considering four references:
- USAID 2002 Male Circumcision: Current epidemiological and field evidence, which says "A systematic review and meta-analysis of 28 published studies by the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine, published in the journal AIDS in 2000, found that circumcised men are less than half as likely to be infected by HIV as uncircumcised men. A subanalysis of 10 African studies found a 71 percent reduction among higher-risk men. A September 2002 update considered the results of these 28 studies plus an additional 10 studies and, after controlling for various potentially confoundnig religious, cultural, behavioral and other factors, had similarly robust findings. Recent laboratory studies in Chicago found HIV uptake in the inner foreskin tissue to be up to nine times more efficient than in a control sample of cervical tissue."
- Weiss et al. 2000, which says "Male circumcision is associated with a significantly reduced risk of HIV infection among men in sub-Saharan Africa, particularly those at high risk of HIV. These results suggest that consideration should be given to the acceptability and feasibility of providing safe services for male circumcision as an additional HIV prevention strategy in areas of Africa where men are not traditionally circumcised."
- Cochrane = Siegfried et al. 2003 which says "We found insufficient evidence to support an interventional effect of male circumcision on HIV acquisition in heterosexual men. The results from existing observational studies show a strong epidemiological association between male circumcision and prevention of HIV, especially among high-risk groups. However, observational studies are inherently limited by confounding which is unlikely to be fully adjusted for. In the light of forthcoming results from RCTs, the value of IPD analysis of the included studies is doubtful. The results of these trials will need to be carefully considered before circumcision is implemented as a public health intervention for prevention of sexually transmitted HIV."
- Siegfried et al. 2005 which says "Study quality was very variable and no studies measured the same set of potential confounding variables. Therefore, conducting a meta-analysis was inappropriate. Detailed quality assessment of observational studies can provide a useful visual aid to interpreting findings. Although most studies show an association between male circumcision and prevention of HIV, these results may be limited by confounding, which is unlikely to be adjusted for."
- I suggest this edit (along with the balanitis changes): "Earlier, reviews of observational data differed as to whether there was sufficient evidence for an intervention effect of circumcision against HIV" and using Weiss et al 2000 and Siegfried et al 2003 as the references. I think Siegfried et al 2003 and Siegfried et al 2005 are saying essentially the same thing: that there is evidence of correlation but insufficient evidence of causation. --Coppertwig (talk) 15:14, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
- Ok, thanks for clarifying. Unless I'm greatly mistaken, USAID 2002 is citing Weiss 2000. I think that Siegfried 2005 is an updated version of 2003, and as you say makes a similar conclusion: that observational studies aren't sufficient (because they are "inherently limited by confounding") and that RCTs (will) provide more definitive data. I think that, if we're to discuss the observational data, we need to distinguish between these data and those from RCTs. Jakew (talk) 15:51, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
- How about this? I think it makes the distinction clearer: "Before there were any results from randomized controlled trials, reviews of observational data differed as to whether there was sufficient evidence for an intervention effect of circumcision against HIV." --Coppertwig (talk) 16:28, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
- That seems perfectly reasonable to me. Jakew (talk) 22:43, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
- How about this? I think it makes the distinction clearer: "Before there were any results from randomized controlled trials, reviews of observational data differed as to whether there was sufficient evidence for an intervention effect of circumcision against HIV." --Coppertwig (talk) 16:28, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
- Ok, thanks for clarifying. Unless I'm greatly mistaken, USAID 2002 is citing Weiss 2000. I think that Siegfried 2005 is an updated version of 2003, and as you say makes a similar conclusion: that observational studies aren't sufficient (because they are "inherently limited by confounding") and that RCTs (will) provide more definitive data. I think that, if we're to discuss the observational data, we need to distinguish between these data and those from RCTs. Jakew (talk) 15:51, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
- Oh, sorry about the URL's. OK, we're considering four references:
- Jakew, you make good points re the foundation of the WHO position. Looking at Medical analysis of circumcision I get the impression that there were two major meta-analyses of the observational data, which in my edit above I suggest citing. re WHO: are we (merely :-) citing WHO, or can we also (or do we already) cite the conference they base their recommendation on? --Coppertwig (talk) 14:39, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
(<<outdent) OK, I did the edit, including shortening the balanitis section. One advantage is that the two edits led to a net reduction in number of footnote superscripts of four. (I believe it's the number of footnote superscripts that causes the page to render slowly, I presume also putting a load on Wikimedia's servers.) The deleted references are still present on the Medical analysis of circumcision subpage, so that's fine. --Coppertwig (talk) 03:02, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
Sexual Effects
It seems like the sexual effects article is biased by showing more studies against circumcision then for it. Obviously, there are numerous amounts of studies on both sides. I am trying to add 2007 payne study but i am sure that it wilil get reverted by anti-circ zealots. By the way, most pro-circumcisers that try to bias it is in response to the anti circ people. 67.35.83.97 (talk) 13:38, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Payne study
This edit inserted the sentences "A 2007 payne study recently tested circumcised and uncircumcised men for sensitivity of the glans and came to the conclusion that it was the same." and "However, recent studies have reached more balanced views that came to the conclusion it is the same." I reverted the edit. The 2007 Payne study is referenced in the Sexual effects of circumcision article, where in my opinion it's accurately quoted. In my opinion, these edits I just deleted are not an accurate representation of the study. The study said that they did not find any difference in sensitivity between the two groups. It did not say that they found that there is no difference in sensitivity: something that no statistical study could establish, since statistics can never demonstrate that two quantities are exactly equal. --Coppertwig (talk) 15:06, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
- I think you're right to remove the reference to Payne's study. This article isn't the right place to discuss primary sources. Since there is only a limited amount of space available, we need to simply summarise secondary sources. Jakew (talk) 15:20, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
Adult Circumcision
There is little to no information about the circumcision procedure that adult men undergo (such as for medical or religious reasons.) Rather, the prevailing viewpoint tends to be geared towards infant circumcision. I believe this needs to be addressed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.150.33.190 (talk) 22:20, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
- Good point. ~ Homologeo (talk) 19:44, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
Pictures?
Not to be inappropriate at all, but would there be any way to have a side-by-side comparison of a circumsized and uncircumsized penis? For comparison? (And those of us who are chicks, and don't really know the difference...) 63.166.22.254 (talk) 11:21, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
- We used to have comparison pictures, but the uncircumcised picture was deleted according to CSD criteria I9 and G7 (copyright infringement and author request).
- Here's an image of an uncircumcised penis from Commons: Image:Uncircpn.jpg. Would it be a good idea to add it to the article? I found two other pictures at Commons which at first glance seem to be labelled "uncircumcised", but apparently are actually of circumcised penises. --Coppertwig (talk) 15:11, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
- There are two images at Erection#Penis erection, both of which are public domain. We could use these, or combine them into a suitable image illustrating the differences. I'd be happy to do this myself if there was consensus to do so... Jakew (talk) 16:50, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
- Should we perhaps wait until we can find a suitable image of a circumcised penis that doesn't have a skin bridge, or any other sign of a botched circumcision? Blackworm (talk) 19:41, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
- I can't even see the skin bridge on that picture, so I'd suggest going ahead and including both pictures, but am happy to wait if Blackworm prefers. (Congratulations for showing neutrality there, Blackworm.) (I don't dare put up a request at Commons for such a picture. Maybe someone else is braver than me about that.) --Coppertwig (talk) 23:13, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
- I agree you can't see it in the thumbnail, but I definitely see it if I click on it. I'm fine with it, just thought I'd note that. Blackworm (talk) 23:17, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
- I believe we're talking about Image:Flaccid-erect.jpg. OK, maybe I see the skin bridge now. In the erect picture, I think the skin bridge is something that if you follow it down towards the body, it seems to meld into a vein that sticks out. Is that right?
- I'm not sure how much work it would be for Jakew to combine the images. Ideally I guess the skin bridge one would be replaced when a more suitable image is found. Actually, two images. I suggest one of a circumcised penis without skin bridge or other problems, and also (in another section of the article perhaps) a clearer, more obvious image of a skin bridge. --Coppertwig (talk) 01:14, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
- Now that I've seen the difference in both pics (good Lord, what IS that thing on the end?!)(rhetorical, don't worry), I strongly think a comparison pic would be a good idea. Pictures say a thousand words, and what better way to describe the procedure than by showing the, if you will, "before" and "after" pics. No?
- 63.166.22.254 (talk) 08:39, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
- I agree you can't see it in the thumbnail, but I definitely see it if I click on it. I'm fine with it, just thought I'd note that. Blackworm (talk) 23:17, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
- I can't even see the skin bridge on that picture, so I'd suggest going ahead and including both pictures, but am happy to wait if Blackworm prefers. (Congratulations for showing neutrality there, Blackworm.) (I don't dare put up a request at Commons for such a picture. Maybe someone else is braver than me about that.) --Coppertwig (talk) 23:13, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
- Should we perhaps wait until we can find a suitable image of a circumcised penis that doesn't have a skin bridge, or any other sign of a botched circumcision? Blackworm (talk) 19:41, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
- There are two images at Erection#Penis erection, both of which are public domain. We could use these, or combine them into a suitable image illustrating the differences. I'd be happy to do this myself if there was consensus to do so... Jakew (talk) 16:50, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
Re survey
This material was removed from the article by Jakew: "However, in the 2007-08 global Durex sexual activity study, the United States (in which the majority of males are circumcised) ranked 25th for sexual activity, while all of the European nations surveyed (which have a majority of uncircumcised men) were in the top ten. One of the reasons for this can be attributed to the fact that circumcision was formed in religious circles as a way to prevent masturbation, as more religious societies have proven to be less sexually active than secular cultures. Also, modern polls of men show that uncircumcised males tend to masturbate more compared to their circumcised counterparts, due to the self-lubricating properties of the foreskin" with edit summary "rv original research". OK, there does seem to be some OR there -- but the last sentence looks merely unsourced, not OR. However, we might as well leave it out until somebody finds an actual source. I did some web searches and didn't find anything much. --Coppertwig (talk) 14:55, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
- Off the top of my head, I can think of two studies that have assessed masturbation frequency by circumcision status. Neither support the claim. Laumann (JAMA 1997;277:1052-7) found that circumcised men masturbated more frequently, while Richters (Int J STD AIDS 2006;17:547-54) found no statistically significant difference. So even if some sources exist that support the claim, the sentence would be problematic. The "due to" claim in that sentence also looks rather OR-ish to me. Jakew (talk) 15:22, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
- Jakew presents solid reasoning for removing this material - definitely looks like OR. ~ Homologeo (talk) 19:49, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
Campaigns, etc
Recently, the BBC carried a story headlined Rwanda in mass circumcision drive, in which it is explained that "Rwanda has launched a campaign to encourage all men to be circumcised, to reduce the risk of catching HIV/Aids." I'm not certain of the best article for this information. It seems likely to affect the prevalence of circumcision, but technically that's OR and a little crystal ball-ish. I suppose it could go into circumcision advocacy, though it would change the focus of that article. Previous reports indicated that several countries have similar plans, so it's probably worth giving this some careful thought. Does anyone have any ideas? Jakew (talk) 18:16, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
- Perhaps Male circumcision and law or perhaps reproductive rights or human rights since it seems like a case of forcing teenage and adult males to be circumcised against their free will (the article described it as "nominally voluntary" and states that "many in the armed forces will regard it as an order"). It's also definitely circumcision advocacy since the campaign will be started, among others, "with the new born." Blackworm (talk) 20:12, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
- Instead, perhaps we should start a Campaigns for semi-voluntary mass male circumcision article? I'm sure it will get filled out in the coming years, if the WHO has their way. Blackworm (talk) 22:29, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
- Such silence on this momentous development...? Maybe it should just go in the main Circumcision article next to the information about the WHO's push for mass circumcision in Africa. I wonder if Misplaced Pages senior administrator Jayjg, a former member of ARBCOM, would now reverse his comments in the "Articles For Deletion" proposal Jakew initiated for the circumcision advocacy article:
Delete. Obvious original research, no evidence such movement or social activity actually exists. Jayjg (talk) 00:10, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
— User:Jayjg, Senior Misplaced Pages administrator and former ARBCOM member, in the AfD for circumcision advocacy.
Where would this hypothetical edit go in Misplaced Pages?
In the context of fieldwork among the Kenuz Nubians, El Guindi has argued for "the significance of the notion of the cultural equivalence of male and female circumcision," and further argues "that this cultural equivalence extends analytically as a structural equivalence: that is, the two gendered rituals play equivalent roles in the transition of male and female children to adulthood."
Since this article inexplicably bans all discussion of the circumcision of females, and the female genital cutting article bans any comparison to male circumcision (but oddly, not contrasts), it seems that there is nowhere in Misplaced Pages a place for scholarship concerning any comparisons of any kind between the circumcision of males and females. It seems El Guindi's published views, like all views concerning any such comparisons, are suppressed by the imposed structures. Could the reason be POV? Blackworm (talk) 07:46, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
- How does an article ban anything? And what exactly are "imposed structures"? Either a piece of information is referenced and relevant to the article subject, or it's not. That said, of course there are strong POVs involved on an immediately and unavoidably personalised hot button topic like this. The only advice I can offer you is to do what I did: look for other areas of interest and don't lose yourself in the same endless dispute over and over. Misplaced Pages offers an increasingly comprehensive bouquet of heat and noise to dive in; endless conflicts of interest, gaming the system, intellectual dishonesty, ownership, bullying, low-level long-term disruption. There are far more places where you can't do anything to improve the encyclopedia because of dirty tactics being shamelessly employed for the sake of a questionable status quo. Why try in vein here, when you can as well try in vein elsewhere for a change? Alternatively, create a niche for yourself and write about something completely different or find other ways to participate. If however your primary goal is to educate others, then I can only hope you are willing to be educated in turn. Otherwise, you're no better than the trolls who come here with a set agenda. User:Dorftrottel 08:13, January 28, 2008
- Thank you for the comment. I'm not sure if it was intended as humour but I must say I found the part about trying in vain elsewhere for a change very amusing. One major point of Misplaced Pages is to assume good faith, and the day I give up on that, I might as well give up on Misplaced Pages entirely. My primary goal is not to educate others, it's to help make a encyclopedia worthy of being called a neutral reference work. I have indeed been educated on how to do that, mostly by reading WP policies. I believe that if they are put into practice, they will work. Unfortunately, WP is still edited by humans with points of view, and sometimes even by humans wishing to promote or oppose the presentation of specific, notable, verifiable points of view.
- As for how an article bans an idea, the mechanism and effect are clear -- through a strongly enforced, narrow, and incomplete definition of a topic, this article and all related articles ban the idea that circumcision also includes the circumcision of females, thus implying that the topic refers strictly to procedures on males, and that any other usage is incorrect. Any reader of George Orwell knows how control of language gives rise to control of ideas. The groups who wish to control (i.e. eliminate) the idea that male and female circumcision are in any way comparable or related have an interest in separating the terminology. This isn't done in secret; organizations like the UN's specialized agency the WHO, openly admit to be promoting the introduction of new terminology to describe female circumcision (and thus effectively redefining the term "circumcision") so as to eliminate undesired associations between the practices of male circumcision and female circumcision. They simultaneously campaign for mass male circumcision (with alarming effects, IMO) and claim that female circumcision is a human rights violation. These two tasks would be much more difficult to justify if the term used was "circumcision" in both cases. I don't believe Misplaced Pages, as a supposedly neutral reference, should engage in or assist this advocacy, even if 99% of editors were convinced that the advocacy is otherwise something they would support. I believe the current organization of the articles does just that, and find it difficult not to conclude that it is either purposely done to support this advocacy, or, perhaps as a matter of greater concern, done unconsciously because the WHO and similar groups have already succeeded in eliminating ideas through their recent redefinition of words and phrases in the English language. Sorry if this is soapboxish, but you asked about my goals... WP:NPOV pretty much sums them up, along with the Five Pillars. Can WP:NPOV be followed here, or are we to give up on it? Blackworm (talk) 09:03, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
- FWIW, I believe the article is currently as fair & balanced as it will get. Why not go to WP:FAC? If there are still issues that could and should be improved, the article can only benefit from the attention of multiple uninvolved users. User:Dorftrottel 11:48, January 28, 2008
- Female genital cutting already contains a quote which comments on a comparison of male and female circumcision: "this procedure in whatever form it is practised is not at all analogous to male circumcision." I think right next to that quote would be a good place for the above quote, per WP:NPOV. (Is it a real quote, or just hypothetical?) Since the words for female circumcision are being changed, the page on that topic seems to me a good place to discuss related nomenclature. There's no particular reason why female circumcision can't be mentioned on this page, or male circumcision on that page, if it's somehow relevant to the topic. This page may also be a possible place for such a quote; or Circumcision in cultures and religions. --Coppertwig (talk) 03:07, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
- The above quote doesn't seem to be discussing terminology, and I wonder if perhaps a better approach might be to shorten the Cook quote, so that it stays closer to the topic within the 'terminology' section? In any case, Talk:Female genital cutting seems a more appropriate place to discuss changes to that article, so perhaps we should discuss it there.
- I think that comparisons are sometimes useful in an encyclopaedia. For example, it might be helpful to describe a skyscraper as "about the height of the Eiffel Tower". However, where the comparison is itself controversial, the value can be diminished. For example, if we were to say that "according to author X, it is about the height of the Eiffel Tower, but according to author Y, X is a 'bloody idiot' and there is 'no comparison'", it doesn't seem to tell the reader very much about the skyscraper. Indeed, the subject no longer seems to be "the skyscraper", but instead " the relationship between the height of the skyscraper and the Eiffel Tower".
- I'm not saying that such material doesn't belong anywhere in Misplaced Pages, but I think that we need to think carefully about whether it belongs in a particular article. Since Misplaced Pages articles are of limited length, we can't include every piece of information that's remotely related to the subject; we must select information to summarise. "Because it's there" may be a good reason for climbing Everest, but I think we need something better for selecting material. If the dispute is itself notable, perhaps a case can be made for an article about 'the relationship between male circumcision and female genital cutting'. As an alternative, since this quote is about the cultural significance of practices "in the context of ... the Kenuz Nubians", perhaps Nubians is an appropriate place?
- Similarly, there is some debate in the literature over whether circumcision may be compared to a vaccine (this often, but not always, seems to occur in the context of HIV). I'm not convinced that covering this debate would add value to the article, since it would convey little information about circumcision itself. Jakew (talk) 13:20, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
- Coppertwig, I would argue that any information concerning the circumcision of females is directly related to the topic of circumcision. It seems... self-evident? As for your statement that the words for female circumcision are being changed, that seems to beg the question, Who are these benevolent masters working to change the words for female circumcision for us? And, how exactly are the words being changed? By decree? Finally, for what purpose do you believe the words are being changed? Note, I do not disagree that they are indeed being changed, in fact you seem to echo my very points above. Maybe you didn't mean it that way, but I think the particular choice of words was bang on. Blackworm (talk) 05:22, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
Female genital cutting is not "circumcision". It is amputation of the clitoris rather than the skin around it and often includes sewing up the labia. It is directly comparable to removing the entire glans of the penis and sewing the foreskin closed rather than amputating just the foreskin. Sure there are aspects of similarity, for example the social coming-of-age aspect and the fact that both procedures involve sharp implements and the genitals, but the differences are more fundamental than the similarities. Calling the amputation of a clitoris 'female circumcision' is an aspect of POV in action (I know that this is the 'traditional' term but I suspect that it originated from a misunderstanding and therefore changing the term to 'female genital cutting' or 'clitoral amputation' provides clarity rather than obscuring anything). This is not to get involved in the argument over whether the amputation of a foreskin is a good thing, but comparing the two procedures is not valid. It is like comparing electric shock treatment to using a crash cart to restart a heart... yeah, they both involve electricity but they are not really related otherwise.SimonHolzman (talk) 20:30, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
- Your assertions are either debatable opinion, or patently false. Webster's gives one definition of "circumcision" as a cross-reference to "female genital mutilation." Also, your other assertions are contradicted by multiple reliable sources in the Female genital cutting article. Female genital cutting, a phrase redefined by the WHO, encompasses a range of procedures greatly varying in severity; from a piercing, a pinprick, or contact with herbs, to cutting (excision) of tiny amounts of tissue, to excision of larger amounts of tissue, to excision and infibuation (which is what you refer to). Since "female genital cutting" also encompasses procedures that do not involve any cutting, excision, or removal of any tissue, your assertion that the term provides clarity is also demonstrably false. Your other assertions are original research, unsupported by reliable sources, and are at best opinion. Luckily for you, your opinion seems to be reflected by the organization of this article. For the moment, anyhow, until a neutral party with authority reviews the multiple policy violations in this article, from the title, definition and lead on down. Blackworm (talk) 21:17, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
- So the term 'Female Circumcision' is more accurate in your opinion ? The point I was making was that female circumcision is minimally comparable with male circumcision and your list of the variety of procedures encompassed by 'female genital cutting' confirms my point. Thank you for your support. BTW, since when was opinion or original research forbidden on Talk pages ?SimonHolzman (talk) 18:54, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
- The above user, SimonHolzman, has likened me personally to Hitler, on my talk page, . I will not be responding to this user. Blackworm (talk) 23:54, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
- I did not liken Blackworm to Hitler, I said that Blackworm appeared to have nothing positive to say about circumcision and then commented that most topics have some positive aspects, for example, Hitler was supposedly fond of dogs. My comparison was between circumcision and Hitler, not between Blackworm and Hitler. I apologized immediately Blackworm made me aware that he felt offended. It was not my intention to offend or insult him and while I might perhaps have expressed myself better, I still do not think that my comment can be taken as abusive by anyone who is not hypersensitive. Please look at the message I left Blackworm in his comment above and judge for yourself. I had asked Blackworm a question on his personal talk page because of a genuine interest in the answer and aware that Blackworm might legitimately choose not to answer it. However, if Blackworm refuses to respond to my questions on THIS talk page, I think it reflects more on him than on me and harms the discussion rather than furthering it. As such, since Blackworm claims to have accepted my apology, I hope that he will reply to my message above.SimonHolzman (talk) 18:12, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
- I will not, because despite your apology, you continue to be incivil with comments such as "Thanks for your support" and your accusation of hypersensitivity. I too invite readers to judge for themselves whether an editor introducing themselves as Jewish, regarding a topic of high sensitivity and importance to Jews, appropriately told an editor he viewed as critical of the topic: I am curious because you seem to have no positive feelings about it, and so I wonder why this is. After all, Hitler was apparantly kind to dogs. At the very best, it was an extremely poorly chosen and ambiguous analogy. At worst, and reasonably interpreted as such, it was a gross accusation of antisemitism. Blackworm (talk) 20:30, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
- Including the sentence immediately before the excerpt you chose to quote I said, Overall, I have mixed feelings about and see some benefits and some dangers. I am curious because you seem to have no positive feelings about it, and so I wonder why this is. After all, Hitler was apparantly kind to dogs. As I have said, I intended it as comparison between circumcision and Hitler and did not intend any slur on you. The Thank you for your support above was prior to any misunderstanding on this issue. I do not think this dialogue between us serves any further purpose. Please feel free to reply to this as I do not want to be seen to be shutting down this by having the last word, but I will not reply unless you say anything inappropriate, which I am sure you would not do.SimonHolzman (talk) 22:16, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
- I will not, because despite your apology, you continue to be incivil with comments such as "Thanks for your support" and your accusation of hypersensitivity. I too invite readers to judge for themselves whether an editor introducing themselves as Jewish, regarding a topic of high sensitivity and importance to Jews, appropriately told an editor he viewed as critical of the topic: I am curious because you seem to have no positive feelings about it, and so I wonder why this is. After all, Hitler was apparantly kind to dogs. At the very best, it was an extremely poorly chosen and ambiguous analogy. At worst, and reasonably interpreted as such, it was a gross accusation of antisemitism. Blackworm (talk) 20:30, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
- I did not liken Blackworm to Hitler, I said that Blackworm appeared to have nothing positive to say about circumcision and then commented that most topics have some positive aspects, for example, Hitler was supposedly fond of dogs. My comparison was between circumcision and Hitler, not between Blackworm and Hitler. I apologized immediately Blackworm made me aware that he felt offended. It was not my intention to offend or insult him and while I might perhaps have expressed myself better, I still do not think that my comment can be taken as abusive by anyone who is not hypersensitive. Please look at the message I left Blackworm in his comment above and judge for yourself. I had asked Blackworm a question on his personal talk page because of a genuine interest in the answer and aware that Blackworm might legitimately choose not to answer it. However, if Blackworm refuses to respond to my questions on THIS talk page, I think it reflects more on him than on me and harms the discussion rather than furthering it. As such, since Blackworm claims to have accepted my apology, I hope that he will reply to my message above.SimonHolzman (talk) 18:12, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
- The above user, SimonHolzman, has likened me personally to Hitler, on my talk page, . I will not be responding to this user. Blackworm (talk) 23:54, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
- I have to concur with the observation that it's reasonable to compare the two practices, as long as legitimate sourcing is provided, because female genital cutting does indeed encompass a number of procedures, some of which can be considered milder and some harsher than male circumcision. Thus, I see nothing wrong with including neutrally worded comparisons in either of the articles. ~ Homologeo (talk) 20:23, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
- The problem is that any reasonable comparison will be meaningless since female genital cutting encompasses many procedures while male circumcision is basically a single procedure. It's like comparing cats with Bill Gates. You would need to specify which procedure you are comparing and the differences probably outweigh the similarities. If you can draft a fair comparison, by all means do so, but I would suggest that it would be better in a standalone 'Comparison of Male and Female Circumcision' article.SimonHolzman (talk) 22:16, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
- There are several authors who would agree with you, Simon, though of course there are others who would disagree. Similarly, there are several authors who believe it to be appropriate to compare circumcision to a vaccine, and others who would disagree with that. As I see it, though, this article is already quite long enough, and adding sufficient material to cover both sides of these sub-debates would make it far longer. Unfortunately, in spite of that added length, it would tell the reader relatively little about the subject of the article, but would instead discuss at great length whether certain analogies are appropriate or inappropriate. Looking at it another way, if we were to cut material from the article to make space for these analogies, I can't find anything suitable. I tend to agree that such material, if it belongs anywhere, should probably be in its own article. Jakew (talk) 23:43, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
- The problem is that any reasonable comparison will be meaningless since female genital cutting encompasses many procedures while male circumcision is basically a single procedure. It's like comparing cats with Bill Gates. You would need to specify which procedure you are comparing and the differences probably outweigh the similarities. If you can draft a fair comparison, by all means do so, but I would suggest that it would be better in a standalone 'Comparison of Male and Female Circumcision' article.SimonHolzman (talk) 22:16, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
- So the term 'Female Circumcision' is more accurate in your opinion ? The point I was making was that female circumcision is minimally comparable with male circumcision and your list of the variety of procedures encompassed by 'female genital cutting' confirms my point. Thank you for your support. BTW, since when was opinion or original research forbidden on Talk pages ?SimonHolzman (talk) 18:54, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
Redirect to Male Genital Cutting?
In the interests of NPOV, perhaps this article should be moved to 'Male genital cutting' and redirected from here, in order to correspond with the page on female circumcision which is entitled 'female genital cutting'. Bagofants (talk) 16:17, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
- If and when "male genital cutting" becomes the commonly used term for circumcision, then we can move the article to reflect that. Until then, Misplaced Pages needs to reflect the language used in the real world. Jakew (talk) 16:32, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
- Misplaced Pages is an Encyclopaedia, not a dictionary. It should reflect the *facts*. 'Male Genital Cutting' is a much more descriptive title for an article about the cutting of the male genitals. Perhaps upon renaming the article you could clarify with "Male Genital Cutting AKA circumcision". 'Male Genital Cutting' currently redirects to 'Genital modification and mutilation', which incidentally has a section on male circumcision. Perhaps the best solution would be to merge this article into that page, as circumcision is a form of genital modification, and some would argue a form of mutilation. Bagofants (talk) 17:08, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
- This article is not about the cutting of the male genitals. It is about the removal of the foreskin of the penis, a procedure known as circumcision. Per use common names, we therefore call it 'circumcision'. "Male genital cutting", if the term were in common usage, would presumably include vasectomy, castration, penectomy, subincision, and indeed any procedure in which the male genitals were cut.
- Your proposal to merge this article into the page about GM&M makes no sense. Would you propose to merge every surgical procedure article into surgery on grounds that they are forms of surgery? Jakew (talk) 17:21, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
- 'Every surgical procedure' is not related to genital mutulation or modification. Similarly, whilst in the Western world circumcision is usually carried out as a surgical procedure, in some parts of the world it is carried out as a ritual and for non-medical purposes. Whilst, obviously, merging all forms of surgery into one article is ludicrous, circumcision and 'genital cutting' are closely enough linked to be merged, and the total length of the article would not be excessive, so my proposal makes perfect sense. Also, you seem to have an unhealthy obsession with male circumcision. Were you circumcised yourself or it it just a sexual fetish? Bagofants (talk) 17:40, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
- The fact remains that you are proposing to take an article that can be categorised in a certain way (a procedure that modifies the genitals), and to merge this into the article for that category. Logically, this is equivalent to arguing that an article that is a form of surgery should be merged into surgery. Indeed, one wonders what you propose to do with the other procedures I mentioned. Should they be merged into GM&M as well? Or perhaps they should be merged into surgery instead? Or maybe initiation rite? Actually, since most articles fall into several categories, should we get rid of separate articles and just have a single, giant article called 'Misplaced Pages'? Jakew (talk) 17:53, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
- Following your logic, then yes, Circumcision should exist as it's own article, in which case the few paragraphs about male circumcision should be removed from the 'Genital modification and mutilation' article. In fact, the article 'Genital modification and mutilation' should be split and a new article created for each type of genital modification and mutilation featured in the article (or content merged with existing articles if they already exist), namely: body modification, voluntary gender-reassignment, involuntary gender assignment, male circumcision, and female circumcision. As articles for these subjects seem to already exist, the content within the article 'Genital modification and mutilation' is superfluous. This is, of course, following your logic of having a separate article for every single aspect of something. Bagofants (talk) 22:59, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
- I guess Jakew is trying to come up with an answer, 6 days later. Funny how that works when they (him and his friends) are wrong about something. I can't wait for my comment to get reverted (as quickly as possible) or shot down by him and his pro-circ/admin/mod friends who try so hard to push their POV. I think, of all the edits ever done to the Circ page and this talk page over these years, this one suggesting the merge is the most intelligent of all. Of course Jakew and his friends would never allow their precious page to turn into a redirect and have their pro-circ agenda be smashed into a sub-category. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.248.159.46 (talk) 07:55, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- Following your logic, then yes, Circumcision should exist as it's own article, in which case the few paragraphs about male circumcision should be removed from the 'Genital modification and mutilation' article. In fact, the article 'Genital modification and mutilation' should be split and a new article created for each type of genital modification and mutilation featured in the article (or content merged with existing articles if they already exist), namely: body modification, voluntary gender-reassignment, involuntary gender assignment, male circumcision, and female circumcision. As articles for these subjects seem to already exist, the content within the article 'Genital modification and mutilation' is superfluous. This is, of course, following your logic of having a separate article for every single aspect of something. Bagofants (talk) 22:59, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
- The fact remains that you are proposing to take an article that can be categorised in a certain way (a procedure that modifies the genitals), and to merge this into the article for that category. Logically, this is equivalent to arguing that an article that is a form of surgery should be merged into surgery. Indeed, one wonders what you propose to do with the other procedures I mentioned. Should they be merged into GM&M as well? Or perhaps they should be merged into surgery instead? Or maybe initiation rite? Actually, since most articles fall into several categories, should we get rid of separate articles and just have a single, giant article called 'Misplaced Pages'? Jakew (talk) 17:53, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
- 'Every surgical procedure' is not related to genital mutulation or modification. Similarly, whilst in the Western world circumcision is usually carried out as a surgical procedure, in some parts of the world it is carried out as a ritual and for non-medical purposes. Whilst, obviously, merging all forms of surgery into one article is ludicrous, circumcision and 'genital cutting' are closely enough linked to be merged, and the total length of the article would not be excessive, so my proposal makes perfect sense. Also, you seem to have an unhealthy obsession with male circumcision. Were you circumcised yourself or it it just a sexual fetish? Bagofants (talk) 17:40, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
- Misplaced Pages is an Encyclopaedia, not a dictionary. It should reflect the *facts*. 'Male Genital Cutting' is a much more descriptive title for an article about the cutting of the male genitals. Perhaps upon renaming the article you could clarify with "Male Genital Cutting AKA circumcision". 'Male Genital Cutting' currently redirects to 'Genital modification and mutilation', which incidentally has a section on male circumcision. Perhaps the best solution would be to merge this article into that page, as circumcision is a form of genital modification, and some would argue a form of mutilation. Bagofants (talk) 17:08, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
POV?
Am I the only one who read this article and got a Circumcision propaganda pamphlet? I think it needs some serious revising, but I won't throw up a POV tag if I'm the only one who thinks so. 202.182.83.31 (talk) 08:21, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
- I agree, but there's not much point putting in a POV tag as it will get instantly removed by editors insisting to the people in the neutrality dispute that there is no neutrality dispute. And if you don't have six hours a day to engage in "discussion," I wouldn't bother trying to revise the article either. Blackworm (talk) 11:07, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Yes throw up a POV FLAG on circumcision. This is probaly THE MOST biased page on all of[REDACTED] (or at least that I have ever seen.) If anything it should be about the PRACTICE. There should be a separate page with equal length given to the pro and con side. But this is a ridiculous site. It's all about how this procedure can reduce HIV even tho circumcision INCREASES herpes and clamitia, no discussion about that. It's so biased. Everyone knows that there are PROS and CONS to practically everything. But with the penis, people get touchy and wants the "truth" to spin their way. This site is a pro-circumcision propaganda page. It should be neutral. Flag it.
- Osipov, Vladimir O. (November 14, 2006). "Balanoposthitis". Reactive and Inflammatory Dermatoses. EMedicine. Retrieved 2006-11-20.
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