Talk:Orthomolecular medicine

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Talk:Orthomolecular medicine, Edit history Jan 2006-Mar 2008

Notable

"Notable OM Drs & Scientists" would be okay with me. I prefer the previous 3-4 column format, too.--TheNautilus (talk) 12:09, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

What do you think about "Notable supporters"? The word "doctor" makes me itch, because it can legitimately include PhDs, but is usually received as "licensed physicians." WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:30, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Ooooh, outed my cultural assumptions. "Notable OM Physicians & Scientists"? AFAIK, most, or at least the notable non-PhD/DSc "doctors" are MDs and foreign versions.--TheNautilus (talk) 18:50, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Lead

I also agree that leaving the lead alone for a while in the form approved by the RfC is an excellent idea. Tim Vickers (talk) 17:08, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your prompt attention, I said 2 days off. I thought we should try a more neutral, less injurious version on for size, we could still talk. The "faddism" and "quackery" are not acceptable lede material, they are poisonous attacks given WP:UNDUE weight often based on highly flawed allegations & distortions, even trivially obvious in the scientific senses. Because of the historical facts on major OMM areas, although I will agree that vitriolic critics are notable in the general sense, their inflammatory misrepresentions & coverage promoting distortions & scientific misconduct that scientifically & commercially interferes & unfairly deprecates others' legitimate results should be discussed where there is space for balancing quotes, references and reader's (yawn) voluntary continued interest.--TheNautilus (talk) 17:44, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, there are some concerns with the lead, but let's give it a rest for a while. Perhaps over the weekend, we can start a fresh subpage to edit the lead -- edited just like it was the real article, until we can get a reasonable compromise that we can then paste into the article.

One suggestion in the meantime: If there's something that you want to eventually be included in the lead, would you please make sure that it's present in the main body of the article? The guidelines state that the "lead section should briefly summarize the most important points covered in an article," and I'm inclined to enforce the covered in the article bit fairly strictly. So if you want any particular point in the lead, please make sure that it's appropriately represented in the article. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:40, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

At the moment the first paragraph summarizes "basics" and "method" (those have to go first, so the reader can grasp the subject) the second paragraph deals with the material in "history" and "criticism". The section on "popularity" isn't covered in the lead, that could go as part of a new second paragraph with the "history" summary. Tim Vickers (talk) 18:53, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Link offensive text dif and moved text to subpage. That last sentence has never been agreed on and as far as I am concerned, has all the lede legitmacy of a KKK scholar's published scholarly opinion ca 1915-1924 on various ethnicities. That kind of last sentence is material that needs to be discussed, not the default article.--TheNautilus (talk) 19:11, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Indeed it was discussed in the RFC, with 3/4 uninvolved editors preferring this over your version. Just because you disagree with this consensus is no reason to pretend this hasn't been discussed. I've unarchived the RfC, since this was still listed as active. Perhaps more uninvolved editors will comment. Tim Vickers (talk) 19:22, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Request for comment on the attribution of criticism in the lead

Template:RFCsci

Which version do people prefer, in light of the NPOV policy? Tim Vickers (talk) 17:22, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Version 1

Some therapies that meet the criteria Linus Pauling established to define orthomolecular medical therapies, such as the use of vitamins and nutrients to treat dyslipidemia, are also used in mainstream medicine. However, the scientific and medical consensus is that the broad claims of efficacy advanced by advocates of orthomolecular medicine are not adequately tested as drug therapies, where oppononents and partisans have even described it as a form of food faddism and quackery. Proponents of this approach to medicine note that some research investigating the therapeutic use of nutrients have been published in mainstream sources, and that vitamins are used in conventional medicine as treatments for some diseases.

Version 2

Some conventional therapies use nutrients, such as using niacin to treat dyslipidemia, and some research investigating therapeutic uses of nutrients has been published in mainstream sources. However, the scientific and medical consensus is that the broad claims of efficacy advanced by advocates of orthomolecular medicine are unsupported, with the American Medical Association saying that the idea that most diseases can be prevented by nutritional interventions is a myth. Orthomolecular medicine has even been described as a form of food faddism and quackery.

Involved editors comments

I prefer version 2, since it directly cites a notable medical organisation and does not use the POV term "partisan" in describing the author of the review in Annual Reviews of Nutrition that described this form of alternative medicine as food faddism and quackery. Tim Vickers (talk) 17:22, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
Version 1 provides a substantial summary notice that there is notable disagreement from various opponents and economic interests. Anymore detail, even with balancing quotes, overloads the lede and favors the critics by obscuring the basic coverage, description & definition of orthomolecular medicine, where so many, including its "expert" critics cannot even get orthomed's basic concepts, science, experimental/clinical evidence & history straight.--TheNautilus (talk) 17:32, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
I find version 1 more appealing. Version 2, however, would be great if it were expanded to include the fact that Linus Pauling emphatically disagreed with the notion that his claims were unsupported. There are multiple WP:RS for this.--Alterrabe (talk) 17:54, 21 March 2008 (UTC) We could separate the debate over partisan from that about including the ACS in the lead.--Alterrabe (talk) 18:07, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

I've added a section on the history to the lead, which explains the role of Pauling in establishing this field and tried to remove the wordiness by condensing the rest of the text. Hopefully this will make the lead more readable and summarise the article better. Tim Vickers (talk) 20:49, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Uninvolved editors comments

OK, well I'm a bit confused about the reference to food faddism in the lead if it's not in the body of the article. If someone could explain that to me I'd appreciate it, and I'll hold off on making a judgment between the two versions until then. Thanks, Antelan 20:15, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

I've added an expanded definition of that term to the "Views on Safety and Efficacy" section, added a paragraph on the history of OM to the lead, and trimmed the wordiness a little. Tim Vickers (talk) 22:24, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. I find Version 2 more useful for the following reasons: (a) it avoids the point-counterpoint argument being set up in Version 1; and (b) it points to specific, rather than general, criticisms. Antelan 23:00, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

In terms of a well-written introduction, I don't really like either of the options. They are both wordy (for example, "opponents and partisans") and assume knowledge that the first-time reader doesn't have (like why Linus Pauling's definition matters). Furthermore, the paragraph could be accurately summarized simply as "Critics think this controversial field needs more scientific research to support its claims." I dislike option two slightly less than I dislike option one. Option one promotes the wrong standard for testing the field (you test a specific compound for a specific disease in a drug trial, not the "broad claims" of all advocates). If option one is chosen, then the word "partisans" should be struck from the first option as being POV and redundant to boot. However, I think that reading WP:LEAD and starting over entirely might be the best option. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:41, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Your comments on one of the recent, one paragraph lede, a previously more stable version would be appreciated. To see the wordsmithing and then some (d)evolution of the lede, it appears to start about here. I have set up the subpage for editing and comparing suggestions & changes.--TheNautilus (talk) 00:26, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

It is getting wordier and more poisonous POV pushing the lede instead of a one sentence note that there is strong disagreement to be expanded upon in the body.--TheNautilus (talk) 06:51, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I am sort of confused since they both have criticism in the LEAD. However, I ahve to agree with Tim Vickers that I like the attribution to the AMA. I do not mind the point, counterpoint, but it might be a bit much for the LEAD. Better to save this for the body.--Filll (talk) 23:46, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

For reliability as a source, it is necessary to mention the American Medical Association's criticism if the title includes the word "medicine". Also, consider scenarios (1) and (2): (1) an official body (AMA, FDA, etc.) does not consider the treatment scientifically tested for efficacy, and this is the general consensus in medicine (2) there is a general state of disagreement in the medical/scientific community about the efficacy. If the situation is like (1), then it has to be written differently, with no "sides of disagreement". If it's like (2), then you can have "sides" even in the lead. The reason is that there are theories rejected as unscientific in all sciences; their proponents tend to "teach the controversy", and make an impression that there is genuine disagreement within the scientific community. It is necessary for an encyclopedia to be "shielded" against attacks like these that attempt to use the site as a soapbox / for free hosting. --Vuo (talk) 16:15, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
- Summarizing, Version 2 is better, because it is shorter and doesn't introduce "proponents" and "opponents". Everyone can be a proponent or opponent. Everyone isn't a PhD in Medicine. --Vuo (talk) 19:07, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

For poorly founded, inflammatory material, it was not clearly agreed in the manner & time I have learned to expect, where less troubled, more neutrally worded versions are available. Also there are in essence three versions. I appreciate the input but I will consider facts and policies as best as I know how. Strict numbers aren't the basis of good editing on RfCs or consensus, either, especially in partisan & conflict of interest situations.--TheNautilus (talk) 19:29, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

AMA discussion

In response to your concerns about the inclusion of this source, I have posted a question at the RS noticeboard so people can discuss the issue. Tim Vickers (talk) 17:16, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

I think that is premature, as I said before , since the AMA doesn't even state "orthomlecular" anywhere that is Original research or offtopic. Also many editors *are* AMA members or unfamiliar with the underlying issues that especially concern orthomolecular medicine.--TheNautilus (talk) 17:44, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Guyton JR (2007). "Niacin in cardiovascular prevention: mechanisms, efficacy, and safety". Curr. Opin. Lipidol. 18 (4): 415–20. doi:10.1097/MOL.0b013e3282364add. PMID 17620858.
Stuart Aaronson et. al. "Cancer Medicine", 2003, BC Decker Inc ISBN 1–55009–213–8, Section 20, p76
Jarvis WT (1983). "Food faddism, cultism, and quackery". Annu. Rev. Nutr. 3: 35–52. doi:10.1146/annurev.nu.03.070183.000343. PMID 6315036.
^ Eat it up and be a good boy. The Economist, February 2, 2008
^ Gesch CB et al, Influence of supplementary vitamins, minerals and essential fatty acids on the antisocial behaviour of young adult prisoners. Randomised, placebo-controlled trial., Br J Psych, 2002, Vol. 181, pp. 22-28 2002
^ Research backs theory that vitamin C shrinks tumours. The Independent, 28 March 2006
Guyton JR (2007). "Niacin in cardiovascular prevention: mechanisms, efficacy, and safety". Curr. Opin. Lipidol. 18 (4): 415–20. doi:10.1097/MOL.0b013e3282364add. PMID 17620858.
Stuart Aaronson et. al. "Cancer Medicine", 2003, BC Decker Inc ISBN 1–55009–213–8, Section 20, p76
Report 12 of the Council on Scientific Affairs: Alternative medicine American Medical Association June 1997, Accessed 21 March 2008
Jarvis WT (1983). "Food faddism, cultism, and quackery". Annu. Rev. Nutr. 3: 35–52. doi:10.1146/annurev.nu.03.070183.000343. PMID 6315036.

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