Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Jim62sch (talk | contribs) at 20:58, 25 May 2008 (→Delusional: stretching). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Administrators' Noticeboard

Note: As a discussion of Moulton's block is ongoing at WP:AN, I've unprotected this page so that Moulton can comment on-wiki rather than being confined to email or offsite postings. MastCell  17:06, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Note that as the size of the above discussion now exceeds 200 KB, Ryan Postlethwaite has relocated it to a new subpage at Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Moulton. Unfortunately the prior history page does not migrate along, so the history is now in two fragments, before and after the move. —Moulton (talk) 20:19, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Archives

Archive 1 (August-September 2007)

Archive 2 (November-December 2007)

Biographical Information

I am currently a Visiting Scientist at the MIT Media Lab in the Affective Computing Research Group. My long-term field of research is the Role of Emotions in Learning. I am currently working on the role of StoryCraft as a traditional method of learning.

I am also a volunteer science educator in the Discovery Spaces at the Boston Museum of Science.

My other affiliations include the Institute for Intelligent Systems at the University of Memphis and the School of Communication and Journalism at Utah State University where I assist in the curriculum in Online Journalism.

I was formerly a Visiting Scientist in the Educational Technology Research Group at BBN Systems and Technologies. Additional professional background information can be found here.

My interest in writing encyclopedia articles in my areas of expertise dates back to 2004 when I co-authored an 8-page article entitled "Electronic (Virtual) Communities" in the Encyclopedia of International Media and Communications.

Some of my other research interests include puzzlecraft, building online communities, and the functional characteristics of rule-driven systems.

I have a Home Page at MIT, a Personal Home Page, and a personal blog called Moulton Lava. There is also a collection of essays and lighter pieces on Moulton's Utnebury Pages.

Objectives

My primary objective here is to achieve a respectable level of accuracy, excellence, and ethics in online media, especially when the subject at hand is an identifiable living person.

My secondary objective is to examine the efficacy of the process and the quality of the product achieved by any given policy, culture, or organizational architecture.

My tertiary objective is to identify and propose functional improvements to systems that are demonstrably falling short of best practices.

Status

I am currently under an indefinite block that was imposed on September 11, 2007, by KillerChihuahua as a result of an RfC brought against me by members of the WikiProject on Intelligent Design. I am not seeking to be unblocked. Rather I am seeking a review of the circumstances surrounding my encounter with the WikiProject on Intelligent Design.

On May 15th, Dihydrogen Monoxide initiated a discussion on WP:AN calling for a review of the case, in the wake of an incident involving an edit war between The undertow and FeloniousMonk over disputatious content the latter sought to publish in contravention of WP:BLP on User:Moulton — a page that had been deleted since last February.

Sam Korn is a former member of ArbCom who posted on WP:AN an open invitation to me to send him E-Mail presenting my case.

After a few rounds of E-Mail, Sam Korn has posted his analysis and opinion of the case.

His view is that the RfC and its aftermath were flawed:

What is important here is that the action taken was not wholly appropriate: that is indicative of the process being wrong. I don't know who Moulton would like to make this statement: I for one am happy to say "no, we didn't get this one quite right".

This is a major step towards recognizing and rectifying the problem as I perceived it.

I would also like to acknowledge the significant roles played by Lar and GRBerry in the WP:AN discussions, and the instrumental role that Privatemusings played in bringing the issues to wider public awareness through the medium of the NTWW Skypecasts.

Moulton (talk) 07:08, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

A Collegial Dissent From Moultonism

:So, you wander over to WR, talk shit, promote shit, encourage others to spread shit, come back from WR, without admitting that your view of NPOV might've been shity and might've caused a shitload of nonsense, and then, you beg to be allowed back to spread more shit? No shit, really. Nah. •Jim62sch• 23:07, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Jim, this kind of comment is hardly constructive - Alison 23:21, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

No, its just a demonstration of his class :) ok ok I'm not being constructive either ...195.216.82.210 (talk) 11:04, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

While I understand the frustration, I have to say I agree with Alison that this is a bit impolitic and inappropriate here.--Filll (talk) 13:20, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

I appreciate the collegiality of your dissent, Filll. —Moulton (talk) 13:51, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Jim, you asked me this at ArbCom, "I'd at least appreciate an apology for those ill-considered comments nonetheless." Does this apply to you here? Or do you expect accountability from others that you don't apply to yourself.? Fair question. Cla68 (talk) 14:16, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Stricken. I apologise for the poor choice of words, but I'm afraid that the point still remains -- I simply cannot condone Moulton's actions here or on WR. If it were just a case of being snarky, I wouldn't care (how could I? I'm snarky myself), it was, and still is, everything else. •Jim62sch• 18:38, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Background

For the benefit of those who are directing their attention to my case for the first time, let me provide a little background and perspective...

An RfC against me was brought by members of the WikiProject on Intelligent Design, in the wake of content disputes on five or six of their articles — notably the biographies of James Tour, Rosalind Picard, and David Berlinski, and the articles on Icons of Evolution and A Scientific Dissent from Darwinism.

I had been editing barely a week or two in their bailiwick, before User:Filll formally filed the RfC, which he and User:ConfuciusOrnis had been preparing on September 3rd and 4th in Filll's user space.

The RfC was dominated by members of the WikiClique on Intelligent Design, who acted as Plaintiff, Arresting Officer, Prosecutor, Bailiff, Judge, Jury, and Executioner. ConfuciusOrnis even filled in the Response Section of the RfC on my behalf, and signed my bottom line endorsement to it, taking selected portions of unsigned material I had begun to construct in Filll's rehearsal area. I thought that was a tad irregular and mentioned it to Kenosis.

On September 11th, User:KillerChihuahua, who is also a member of the WikiClique on Intelligent Design, summarily terminated the RfC and proceeded to an indefinite block, bypassing the WP:CSN process. She gave as her reason, "Disruptive POV OR warrior with no interest in writing an encyclopedia. See Rfc.", overlooking the {fact} that I had credentials in co-authoring an 8-page peer-reviewed and editorially vetted article for a four-volume print encyclopedia.

User:Yamla then placed a notifying tag on my talk page, giving a different reason ("repeated abuse of editing privileges") with the link going to WP:Vandalism. If you look at the RfC, you will discover that the word "vandalism" never appears. Thus both posted reasons for the indefinite block made no sense to me as they were at odds with the facts on the ground and with the content of the charges on the RfC.

In view of these confusing perplexities, I managed to submit a Request for Arbitration to ArbCom, asking them to review troubling aspects of my case.

Note carefully that I did not ask to be unblocked. For all I knew, I deserved to be blocked for some valid reason, in accordance with some comprehensible review of my alleged transgressions. And so I only asked ArbCom to opine on whether I had been afforded diligent due process in the course of the RfC.

My section of the Request for Arbitration begins and concludes as follows:

Moulton's Reqest to ArbCom

I am asking ArbCom to review whether responsible admins participating in my RfC and its aftermath afforded me diligent and conscientious due process, without regard to the whether the final outcome would have been justified by a fair exercise of due process.

...

I am asking ArbCom to investigate and determine whether the allied editors and admins participating in my RfC and its aftermath engaged in a familiar Kafkaesque formulaic script routinely applied to a substantial number of cases similar to this one, without regard for conscientious and due diligence in the exercise of due process.

...

I am asking ArbCom to look beyond the details of any single case for a recurring pattern of unfair and draconian treatment that bespeaks an unbecoming trend in the disregard of reasonable standards for the exercise of due process.

ArbCom declined to take up the question.

Moulton (talk) 20:25, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Fact finding mission

Moulton, you indicate at WR that you are misunderstood by some at WP. In an attempt to increase understanding I will ask some questions, whose answers might provide information relevant to your relationship with the WP community, so we know better what to do. Please respond to the following:

1. Are you aware of the mission statement of the WikiMedia Foundation and do you accept it?
2. Are you willing to interact with the Misplaced Pages Community and its leadership as if (WP:AGF) we are honestly trying to make the world better by providing free-of-cost and copy-left information to as many people as we can within the limits of our abilities, resources and our other priorities in life (helping here does not mean I am going to neglect my other aims in life)?
3. Are you willing to try to learn how we do things here and "go with the flow" (i.e. not knowing breaking the rules even if you are trying to change the rules)?
4. Do you accept that Misplaced Pages "as is" is found useful by millions of people around the world?
5. Do you understand that we the Misplaced Pages community think Misplaced Pages as is is a success and, even though it needs to be better, because it is already a success we are not going to radically change its process due to theoretical observations or even examples of other internet communities?
6. Do you understand that the encyclopedia, its community, its software, and its rules are in constant flux; ever evolving; that WP:BLP is recent; that "stable versions" is coming on line soon; that we are encouraging acedemics to get involved; that we are an encyclopedia in the making and the processes that have so far created a useable source of sourced claims in an encyclopedia format are not those we have used and will use in creating finished vetted versions?
7. In particular, with regard to that last item: Do you know anything about our distribution of vetted articles in DVD format to children in third world countries? (see http://meta.wikimedia.org/Wikipedia_on_CD/DVD)
8. Do you know anything about the non-English language wikipedias?
9. Do you know anything about the non-Misplaced Pages WikiMedia projects? (Might you be happier at WikiVersity)?
10. Do you think you should learn more about us before you try to tell us how to better govern ourselves?

WAS 4.250 (talk) 21:52, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

With respect, question 10 is a bit leading. Most of them are, come to that. naerii - talk 22:09, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

And BLP isn't recent, it's been around since 2005. Really, WAS. naerii - talk 22:10, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

2005 is recent. And "been around" does not capture its even more recent influence and strengthening. But your other comment is dead-on. The questions are leading - designed to inform as well as question. WAS 4.250 (talk) 22:16, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

3 years ago isn't recent. And I mean 'leading' in the sense that there's only really one right answer, isn't there? naerii - talk 22:18, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

The word "recent" means something different to you and me, I guess (I'm an old man, and also I was here before I created the BLP proposal; so I think of it as recent).

No, there can be more than one answer to the questions. The answer to the last question might be that he has very limited suggestions such that what he now knows is sufficient for the limited suggestions he has in mind (example: better enforce "Don't bite the new guys"). WAS 4.250 (talk) 22:24, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

On April 22, I cited the WMF Mission Statement in a discussion thread at Misplaced Pages Review. Three days later (and unbeknownst to me until just now) Eloquence revised the mission statement to replace the phrase 'knowledge' with 'neutral educational content'. Prior to that edit, the Mission Statement read:

The mission of the Wikimedia Foundation is to empower and engage people around the world to collect and develop knowledge under a free license, and to disseminate it effectively and globally.

As of the above-cited revision, it now reads:

The mission of the Wikimedia Foundation is to empower and engage people around the world to collect and develop neutral educational content under a free content license or in the public domain, and to disseminate it effectively and globally.

I understood and accepted without reservation the Mission Statement as it stood when I first looked at it on April 22nd. While I have no problem with substituting 'educational content' for 'knowledge', the modifier 'neutral' which Eloquence inserted is somewhat vague and ill-defined. Or to put it another way, I am unclear on what Wikipedians mean by 'neutral' in policies like WP:NPOV. Modulo that confusion, the rest of the Mission Statement is fine by me either way.

WAS, I just discovered that there are two versions of the WMF Mission Statement. The version on WikiMediaFoundaton.Org omits the word 'neutral' while the version on MetaWikiMedia.Org includes the word 'neutral'. Could you contact Anthere (who is the last editor on both versions) and find out which one is the operative version? I would find it more sensible to omit the word 'neutral' as that seems to be a volatile construct. As the relative strength of the voices of competing POVs wax and wane, the 'neutral' view would require the educational content to wax and wane in synchrony to the public clamor. I frankly don't think that makes very much sense. It would generate a rivalry among competing POVs to gain ground in terms of their prominence in the public clamor. We saw something very much like that, when the Discovery Institute sought to claim that hundreds of prominent scientists and academics endorsed their non-mainstream POV. And even then, the WikiClique on ID amplified their prominence here, by coatracking the ID controversy everywhere they could find a hook. Is that a healthy dynamic?

Moulton (talk) 11:38, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

It is my policy and practice not only to assume good faith, but to extend good faith even when there is substantial evidence that another party is not acting in good faith. I can provide representative examples, if you like.

As a Systems Scientist, I have been struggling for the past ten months to construct a system model of Misplaced Pages's Socio-Political Dynamics, so as to be able to understand how Wikipedians conduct business amongst themselves. In that regard, I have one such model on the table, but I have relatively little feedback on whether it's an accurate or insightful model.

With respect to editing without violating any of the various rules and guidelines that Wikipedians are wont to cite (e.g. WP:BOLD, WP:Consensus, WP:IAR, WP:BLP, WP:NOR, WP:RS, WP:V, WP:AGF), I find that they frequently tend to be mutually inconsistent and mutually contradictory. Last August, I discovered that virtually every edit I deigned to make in a mainspace article, or every edit I merely proposed in an article's talk page was quickly reverted or summarily rejected on account of being in violation of some obscure rule. I concluded that the only edit that one could safely make without being in violation of some rule was the Null Edit.

Misplaced Pages serves many useful and valuable purposes. I routinely rely on it to look up details on items of popular culture. Misplaced Pages is probably the best compendium of popular culture on the Internet.

I have no delusions or fantasies that Misplaced Pages will undertake to revise its policies or practices on account of any analysis, criticism, or suggestions coming from my quarters. At best, I have the audacity to merely hope for some improvements, enroute to best practices.

I understand, through the recent efforts of Doc Glasgow and others, that WP:BLP is a candidate for policy revisions. I understand, through the recent essay from Raymond Arritt, that the problem of expert withdrawal is also a concern that has attracted some attention.

I am also aware, in the wake of recent events related to issues raised in my own case, that the interpretation and application of existing policies is also in flux.

I have seen some references to proposals and commercial enterprises to distribute selected content of Misplaced Pages on DVDs.

I know that at least one bibliographic reference I inserted into the English Misplaced Pages was copied to the Hebrew Misplaced Pages, even as someone deleted it from the English Misplaced Pages. I have not been able to divine the criteria for such editorial decisions.

I know a little about WikiNews, mainly because of some recent unfavorable publicity concerning it.

Do you think you should learn a little more about me (and other academics like me), before deciding how best to govern me? Do you think a more collegial and congenial governance model would be more appropriate, if you wish to attract and retain more scholars from the academic community?

Moulton (talk) 00:04, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

"Neutral" is generally understood here at the English language Misplaced Pages as referring to presenting reliable published mainstream opinion and reliable published expert opinion and alternative points of view identified and discussed in mainstream reliable published sources - each in appropriate contexts (articles) and in fair proportion (due weight).

Before you construct a model, you should gather evidence. Wikiversity has several projects doing that. So far there is a lack of adequate data to formulate or evaluate any detailed scientific model of the Misplaced Pages community.

"I find that they frequently tend to be mutually inconsistent and mutually contradictory." Yes, we know. Especially IAR. And they are constantly changing. Trying to edit or to counter established cabals with literal rules following does not work as you found out. Try editing some obscure articles as an IP and learn from actual experience. Rule following without enough experience to provide common sense does not work. Expecting admins to always follow the rules is like expecting police to never break the law. People will be people, not machines. Act like it.

At WR, you seem to confuse "what are best practices for creating a useful encyclopedia starting with no money but lots of volunteers?" with "what are the best practises for creating the best encyclopedia?" Misplaced Pages is breaking up the creating of a great encyclopedia into two pieces: first create this useful encyclopedia with "anyone can edit"; then take that and have experts check/edit it into a great end product. We have already done this for parts of Misplaced Pages. We will continue to do this and other things to take what "anyone can edit" and create finished vetted products that can not be edited.

"I have not been able to divine the criteria for such editorial decisions." Individual idiosyncratic choices that the individuals believe will make the encyclopedia better. Some add a claim they feel helps. Others delete it thinking that helps. Anyone can add. Anyone can delete. If there is a difference of opinion, ask other people to join the conversation. Fighting about it only gets you banned.

"Do you think you should learn a little more about me (and other academics like me), before deciding how best to govern me?" I have no wish to govern anyone. (I'm not an admin.) "Do you think a more collegial and congenial governance model would be more appropriate, if you wish to attract and retain more scholars from the academic community?" Yes. Absolutely. Lots of people are trying to help[REDACTED] be more expert friendly, newbie friendly, and less of a "paint ball game". We know this is a problem. Your help in fixing this would be appreciated. But, we can't fix the problem by methods that destroy the very point of the community's existence (qua community) - to create free-of-cost copy-left useful educational resources.

At WR you express confusion over WP:NOR. It is really very simple. We wish to be credible in spite of being an encyclopedia that anyone can edit. The best way we have found to do that is to support claims with references to published reliable sources, so that anyone can verify that claim. It does not mean one should not do research. It only means that all claims actually appearing in the article should in principle be able to be sourced to a reliable published source. They don't have to actually be sourced. If editors look at a claim and think, "I'm sure if I looked I could find a source" then it is ok to stay. Also, research sometimes shows a published claim to be wrong, so you can remove a claim you believe to be false based on private research. But if someone else challenges you, you need to convince them you are right. Part of your confusion is from running into people who will twist any rule to win an argument. WAS 4.250 (talk) 20:19, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

So, if I understand your explanation of neutral as applied, for example, to an article on the origin of life, it might have a section on theories of terrestrial abiogenesis, a section on theories of panspermia, and a section on teleological explanations for the origin of life in the cosmos. The discussion might point out the difficulty of coming up with a good scientific model or explanation for the appearance of DNA-based self-reproducing systems out of nonliving organic structures — a puzzle that is complicated by the astonishing complexity of the DNA-based replication process. Is that about right?

With regard to building a system model of Misplaced Pages's socio-cultural dynamics, I had not intended to undertake anything quite so daunting, except that I was unexpectedly handed an anecdotal experience last August. I wondered if my experience was a one-off fluke — a happenstantial misadventure — or whether anything comparable had happened to others. Now the plural of anecdote is data, so after I wrote up my own memoir, I went looking for others. I first found WordBomb's web site, which led me to Misplaced Pages Review, where I discovered a sizable community of outcasts of varying stripes, together with a fairly efficient information gathering system to build a record of known cases, some more notorious than others. It's not exactly a scientific sample, but when one is doing system modeling, one begins where the data (and the data analysis) can be found. It's too soon to say whether a viable and reliable system model will emerge, but I can at least test to see if Misplaced Pages's dysfunctional regulatory structure correponds to Girard's Model.

I was unaware that Wikiversity was engaged in anything similar. I'll have to take a closer look.

Since I am auto-blocked, I can't edit without logging in, as the system has captured my Verizon DSL IP. Doubleplus, there are those who would seize on that to cause me grief. However, I had made a few minor edits in the years prior to my big kerfuffle last August. The amusing thing is that afterwards, someone seems to have gone back and expunged a fair number of those previously obscure edits (at least in the English Misplaced Pages).

It seems to me that a project with lots of young volunteers is well-suited to create a compendium of popular culture, and articles of that nature are generally quite comprehensive. Articles on scholarly subjects appear to be a bit more problematic. It occurred to me that it would make sense to separate these two classes of articles. And as for BLPs, I think that one needs to be taken entirely out the hands of anonymous/pseudonymous volunteers and amateurs.

With respect to those minor improvements, like adding a useful bibliographic reference or a see also link, it seems rather pointless to try to spend too much time doing that, as there is no stability over time for such edits.

Figuring out how to help Misplaced Pages fix its animosity and antipathy toward newbies and academics has frankly taxed my creative problem-solving skills to their limit. I've watched any number of alienated editors become angry, frustrated, disgusted, cynical, and even bitter. What's worse, that progression appears to be all but irreversible for most of the disaffected editors who became alienated from the community they sought to serve in good faith.

With respect to your final paragraph, I've had to wrestle with allegations of WP:COI in those subject matter areas where I am most competent because they are the areas where I have the most depth and familiarity. I have also run into a meatgrinder trying to remove blatantly false information that can trivially be shown to be unsourced if one bothers to actually examine the cited source upon which the article relies.

Moulton (talk) 23:32, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages articles are written by their editors and contain what their consensus is concerning content. If there was a consensus among the editors of an article to have that article contain broad philosophical discussions of an issue then that is what it should contain. If there is a consensus to restrict the article to specific science based claims, then that is what the article should contain. There is certainly room at[REDACTED] for claims about "teleological explanations for the origin of life in the cosmos" but I would not mix such evidence-less speculations with science based evidence describing what science has and has not uncovered about the origins of life on Earth. If is the sheerest nonsense to argue that a lack of evidence is evidence for the supernatural. If I don't know what you ate for breakfast, that is no reason for me to assert that is evidence you ate eggs much less to assert that since I don't know it increases the chance that Zeus fed you.

About "the astonishing complexity of the DNA-based replication process". The complexity is partly due to a lack of design. The DNA/RNA code is the most spaghetti-code like software code I have ever seen. It is exactly what you would expect from an evolution driven system. I think you greatly under-estimate the power of emergence and the ability of poorly replicating objects to multiply and evolve when there is a lack of superior lifeforms competing with them. Circumstantial evidence is very strong for early non-species (did not breed true) RNA self-catalytic molecules.

About "Misplaced Pages's dysfunctional regulatory structure" - when you have a talking dog, you miss the point when you argue over its use of the word "ain't".

"Since I am auto-blocked, I can't edit without logging in, as the system has captured my Verizon DSL IP." Nonsense. Your local libraies have internet connections. You are smart enough to be able to edit articles not known to be associated with you in ways that do not promote POVs associated with you. You can edit, if you choose. Just not in a way that is obviously you. Lots of banned/blockd people figure that if they can't POV push, then why bother editing at all. Surely you don't feel that way.

there is no stability over time for such edits I disagree.

See Integrated Multi-Trophic Aquaculture for what was, can be, and should be done by experts. This article was a collaborative venture by several IMTA researchers around the world. Contributors included: Reid GK, Chopin T, Robinson S, Neori A, Buschmann AH, Shpigel M, Rodger A, and Bolton J. These experts also wrote some of the sources referenced in the article. I wikified it for them.

Would you like to edit Objections to evolution? You can be unblocked and/or given permission to sockpuppet if you wish to constructively contribute to that article. Or pick another article that you haven't been in a fight over. WAS 4.250 (talk) 12:10, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

To the best of my knowledge, there is no evidence yet for panspermia, and (as far as I know) there aren't any satisfactory theories yet for terrestrial abiogenesis, either. So if I am reading you accurately, an article on the origin of life would say that while there is research underway, and perhaps some speculative theories being bandied about, science does not yet have a settled theory for the origin of life in the cosmos. End of article.

Then again, I might talk about the NASA missions (including the upcoming Mission to Mars) which will look for evidence of panspermia. And I might like to see someone familiar with work on terrestrial abiogenesis review the state of that research.

If there is a good theory for how nucleic acid structures got their start, it has not yet come to my attention (not that I've been keeping up with the literature).

I ain't got no talking dog. All I got is this ferchachta experience of the last ten months to come to grips with.

I am not about to go schlepping down to the library to evade the friggin' autoblock. And I have found that others can invariably recognize me after about 3 sentences, no matter what the subject matter is. I never did figure out what is so idiosyncratic about my writing style that gives it away so easily.

It's too bad the articles about Rosalind Picard and Affective Computing couldn't have been written by editors familiar with the subject. That would have been refreshing.

Objections to evolution? I am not familiar with any. Are there really people left on the planet who object to evolution? When I worked at Bell Labs in the Network Planning Division, and I had a chance to come up with a new name for our group, I selected the name Network Evolution Planning. That was my concept of intelligent system design, a quarter century ago. And I'd like to see some accelerated evolution in this project, too. The regulatory process I encountered here reminds me of the regime of King John, before the Magna Carta.

Moulton (talk) 04:02, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

If I may, I'd like to say a quick word about the offer for Moulton to edit Objections to evolution. If he does return and edits that article, I would advise him to tread very lightly because that page is often visited by people who do not wish to make contributions and would rather argue and use it as a forum. I would suggest a less contentious topic for him to edit; something along the computer science lines. If he wants to avoid stirring up the pot and get back into the community's good graces, editing that particular article would not be a wise choice. Baegisthesock (talk) 14:16, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

And I might offer that Moulton review (again, so far as I know) Undue. His clever arguments above all fail to take this portion of policy into account. Shame, really, because without comprehending and embracing the undue weight provisions, one cannot really edit WP (or really any other "neutral" academic forum) in a truly neutral fashion You can argue for the theories of gravity or you can argue that some god makes it all work, but if you present the arguments as being equaly valid, you sure as hell are not being academically neutral. •Jim62sch• 20:36, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

The Similarities and Differences Between Filll and Moulton

Over at the WP:AN that Dihydrogen Monoxide started a few days ago, Filll has published a comprehensive analysis in which he compares his history and adaptation to the Misplaced Pages culture to my history and maladaptive reaction to the Misplaced Pages culture.

Filll's analysis and synthesis of a theory of mind is remarkable.

My problem with Filll's analysis and his theory of mind is that it's not even wrong.

But I wonder if someone would be kind enough explain to me "the principles that Misplaced Pages operates under" and reveal to me how those "principles" (assuming I can ever apprehend them) make the treatment I was afforded by Filll and his colleagues both expected and inevitable.

Finally, since I believe in complementary relationships, permit me to present my reciprocal views regarding Filll...

Moulton's understanding of Filll

Although I have engaged with Filll many times over the past ten months, I confess that I have not yet succeeded in constructing an adequate understanding or appreciation of his mindset or character. I don't understand what he dreads or how he feels about various and sundry issues that recur in his life and his work. I know next to nothing about his personal backstory, including his educational background and experience. I am uninformed about his core beliefs, and baffled by his normative practices. I doubt I could accurately articulate his heartfelt desires or his avowed intentions.

And I am unable to make sense of his observable actions or the ensuing Shreklisch drama that has unfolded between us.

I regret to say, I simply don't understand Filll. I don't understand where he is coming from; I don't understand how he forms his beliefs; nor do I understand why he behaves the way he does.

In terms of my concept of best practices, the best character model I can honestly and ethically put forward at this time regarding my antagonist in this unusual relationship is the Null Model.

And that's the Yin and Yang of our complementary relationship, thus far.

Moulton (talk) 00:49, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Another fascinating example turns up as the AN conversation burbles along. Whereas Filll presciently invokes the Rashomon effect, I take it to the next level and employ it in a parody.

Moulton (talk) 06:08, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Amazing that it seems many of the posters on that forum find problems with your behavior. Strange. I thought it was just the "ID clique" picking on you. Baegis (talk) 06:40, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Moulton asks "But I wonder if someone would be kind enough explain to me "the principles that Misplaced Pages operates under" and reveal to me how those "principles" (assuming I can ever apprehend them) make the treatment I was afforded by Filll and his colleagues both expected and inevitable." Moulton, you are dealing with human beings, who are going to act like human beings - some honest and giving, others less so. We even have a few bullies. I once played poker for no money with a few drinking buddies and accused a friend much larger than myself of cheating, not once but three times. What do you imagine was the "expected and inevitable" result? He threw a punch. I deserved it. What else should I expect from such behavior at a drunken card game? Well, Misplaced Pages has a ton of vandals and POV pushers and our defense is unpaid volunteers who make mistakes, who POV push themselves at times, who get feed up and overreact some times. It is part of the process. If you will not or can not work in such an environment, then Misplaced Pages is not for you.WAS 4.250 (talk) 19:31, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

WAS, I am all in favor of giving people generous slack in a spirit collegiality and congeniality. But that door swings both ways, does it not? I had been editing in earnest on Misplaced Pages for barely a week, on a mere handful of BLPs and related articles that many observers now frankly concede were in atrocious condition, when Filll and his cronies in the WikiProject on Intelligent Design unceremoniously hauled me into a bewildering and Kafkaesque procedural nightmare, presumably in accordance with a sober application of those vaunted "principles" that he sanctimoniously refers to. —Moulton (talk) 19:53, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

"presumably in accordance with a sober application of those vaunted "principles" that he sanctimoniously refers to." Oh, please. How many times do you have to be told that you ran into bullies that did not follow the rules; but instead gamed them to win an argument? The sad thing is I'm not even sure how many of that group even know they are twisting the rules. We are all delusional in our own way, as I'm sure you know. So why do we put up with them? Most of what they do benefits Misplaced Pages by keeping popular misconceptions out of science articles. And who is gonna fight off the very persistent and nasty POV pushers for no money other than people that enjoy pushing others around? You don't hire peace-niks as snipers. Catch-22 from the unexpected unplanned success at letting anyone edit. WAS 4.250 (talk) 20:37, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

That's quite helpful, WAS, and I appreciate your candor. With respect to the more difficult problem of presenting science in a way that honors both the educational outreach mission of Misplaced Pages and the rigors of science itself, I am more than willing to offer my experience as a science educator, with twenty years experience with the Boston Museum of Science. I believe it is possible not only to present science in a readable manner to children and adults, but also to adhere to the principles of the scientific method whilst crafting articles on subjects of scientific interest. The late Carl Sagan did not shy away from answering pseudo-science with authentic science. And while I am hardly in his league as a popularizer of science, I do appreciate his inspiring example. —Moulton (talk) 21:26, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Did you see my edit in the above section "Fact finding mission" ? WAS 4.250 (talk) 21:36, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Oh! Sorry. I missed that. I'll go back and read it and respond. —Moulton (talk) 21:56, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Reconnaissance

At WR you said :"What I need help on — and I'm quite sincere and serious about this — is understanding what I might have done differently here, when I first raised the same objections to Hrafn, Filll, and ConfuciousOrnis."

Less arrogance when dealing with people you don't know in environments you lack experience in. WAS 4.250 (talk) 23:42, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Doesn't that door swing both ways? —Moulton (talk) 00:53, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

No. You failed at your objectives. They succeeded at theirs. I would conclude they understood the environment and you did not; having failed to do appropriate reconnaissance. WAS 4.250 (talk) 01:13, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

My primary objective was to achieve a respectable level of accuracy, excellence, and ethics in online media, especially when the subject at hand is an identifiable living person. Can you suggest to me what their objective was? Did I fail because I went about it incorrectly, or did I fail because my objective is inherently infeasible within the operant environment in which I was obliged to function? —Moulton (talk) 08:00, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

They wanted to get rid of a bothersome person. You continue to be bothersome. Your claim that "My primary objective was to achieve a respectable level of accuracy, excellence, and ethics in online media, especially when the subject at hand is an identifiable living person." is not backed by evidence, but instead seems to be simply a most generous self promotion and self congratulations. More likely, you are like the rest of us and have a mix of motivations; some similar to what you describe and others closer to the desire to win, get revenge, help a friend, etc. Why do you find it so impossible to learn? I already answered your question: you failed to do appropriate reconnaissance. Learn the game before you place your bets. Are you going to continue asking the same question using different words, or are you capable of being less bothersome and actually make some progress? (Sorry, I'm tired and testy.) WAS 4.250 (talk) 09:13, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Learn the game??? Do you mean The Encyclopedia Game, as notably characterized by Robert McHenry, former editor of the Encyclopedia Britannica?

"It was always a doomed idea. It was bad from the start. But it's got the public playing the encyclopedia game. To extend the analogy, it's also like playing a game in the sense that playing it has no consequences. If something goes wrong, you just restart. No problem!" (Robert McHenry, Britannica editor)

He said it more succinctly than I did.

—Moulton (talk) 11:34, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

An amazing question, all things considered. I had a long response, but I decided not to give it. I think the answer is obvious.--Filll (talk) 00:39, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

What do you make of dogbiscuit's response here? —Moulton (talk) 00:53, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Nice guy I am sure, but it is completely wrong. Wow. Amazing how much he misunderstands.--Filll (talk) 02:15, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Filll, you can find dogbiscuit's reply to you here. —Moulton (talk) 11:05, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

I looked. He sees the world in black and white, not even shades of grey, and certainly not in color I guess. And he just goes with what he thinks is some obvious reason, assuming things about my personal beliefs and those of others to force some interpretation of his own creation on the situation. What some people do not seem to get is, my personal beliefs in the matter are irrelevant here - everyone's are. We have a set of rules for WP. And we follow the rules, as best as we can.

Would you want to play basketball with someone who demonstrated by their deeds and actions they did not want to play by the rules? Suppose one of the opposing teams stated that they intended to allow 20 players on the floor at once, and to introduce 3 basetballs into play instead of just one? Suppose that one of the opposing teams demanded that they be allowed to pass the ball to the crowd and have the crowd pass it back to one of their players, without stopping the play? Suppose that one of the opposing teams demanded that they receive no penalty for intentionally tripping members of the other team? And so on? Do you think that the league would let them continue to play with their own made up rules? Do you think that everyone would give in to their demands? What if they were asked to read the rule book and follow the rules and they refused repeatedly? What do you think would happen?

I believe that it is quite likely that you will dismiss this as inaccurate, or an inapplicable analogy, or try to ignore it, or to find some loophole, or claim I am being unfair. Do you think that might be part of the reason you are in the situation you find yourself in? Interesting question, don't you think?--Filll (talk) 12:31, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Do you play chess, Filll? —Moulton (talk) 13:20, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for demonstrating my point. You have not changed your attitude one whit, nor do you intend to. Not that I expected any different, frankly.--Filll (talk) 13:24, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Let me rephrase the question, Filll. Have you ever played chess? —Moulton (talk) 16:54, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

In the meantime, Filll, you may find more commentary on your last set of remarks here. —Moulton (talk) 18:29, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

It is about what I expected. Confusion and misrepresentation. And very selective reading of the policy pages, etc. --Filll (talk) 21:00, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Neutrality

WAS, did you pick up on this remark? Moulton (talk) 00:58, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

"Neutral" is a key value of the WikiMedia Foundation whether it is or is not specifically stated as so in any specific statement. We are not a propaganda organ. "As the relative strength of the voices of competing POVs wax and wane, the 'neutral' view would require the educational content to wax and wane in synchrony to the public clamor." is simply not true and reflects a complete misunderstanding of "neutral". I think you have been listening too much to people who condemn[REDACTED] for things it is not. "Neutrality" is not defined by popular opinion and Misplaced Pages does not aim to replace expert opinion with whatever the unwashed masses vote is true. That is not what we do. WAS 4.250 (talk) 01:13, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

"Neutral" is generally understood here at the English language Misplaced Pages as referring to presenting reliable published mainstream opinion and reliable published expert opinion and alternative points of view identified and discussed in mainstream reliable published sources - each in appropriate contexts (articles) and in fair proportion (due weight).

Am I misinterpreting fair proportion? How is that measured? The Discovery Institute raised quite a ruckus, got a lot of press, a couple of high-profile trials, a PBS Nova episode, a new movie, a big splash in WP, etc. Didn't they pump up their juice bigtime?

—Moulton (talk) 01:55, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

I told you this over and over and over. And it is in the policies. And others quoted it to you as well. But somehow, you chose to ignore that or misunderstand it or misread it. And I am sure if you are told this again, you will again try to argue about it or wikilawyer for some other misinterpretation. Sorry.--Filll (talk) 02:15, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Let me rephrase the question. Fair proportion? Proportion to what? How do you define and measure the baseline quantities of each alternative POV? Column inches? What? —Moulton (talk) 02:31, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

It is a matter of editorial judgement based on the best available sources and the consensus of the editors of the article. There is no mindless formula to follow. The editors are expected to read the available sources and use their best judgement to carefully, thoughtfully, caringly come to the best conclusions they can to create the best article they can; faithfully representing what is believed by the most knowledgeable people on the subject of the article. Do you really think good article writing can be reduced to a formula? WAS 4.250 (talk) 09:24, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree 100%, modulo the difficulty of arriving at consensus. I heartily endorse the Ethics of Care when crafting BLPs. I most assuredly do not believe that it is feasible to craft high quality articles that are both accurate and ethical by roboticly accessing a bewildering laundry list of self-contradictory rules. —Moulton (talk) 10:28, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

One of the uses of "Ignore all rules" is for people like yourself who are more confused than helped by reading the rules. When the rules seem to get in the way of making the encyclopedia better, then the WP:IAR rule says to make the encyclopedia better and ignore the rules. But you do need to get along with others and form a consensus rather than get into revert wars. And you do need to realize that personal knowledge can not be used to add data; we need to be able to verify claims from published reliable sources. WAS 4.250 (talk) 11:16, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

I rather like WP:IAR, because it allows me to ignore the WP:Hodgepodge of WP:Rules and just focus on making a better encyclopedia with more accurate articles. I do realize that personal knowledge cannot be used to add data, but it occurred to me that personal knowledge can legitimately be used to recognize bits and pieces of unsourced content that found its way into articles through inadvertent inference or assumption that is not supported by evidence or careful examination of reliable sources. My understanding of consensus is that it means there is no strong objection. When I strongly objected to the retention of previously inserted material that I personally knew to be both false and defamatory, I objected on the grounds that the contested information could not legitimately be found in, extracted from, or inferred from the reliable public sources upon which the article in question was based. I would have expected that in the absence of a clear consensus, such contested material would simply be removed until such time as it could be properly sourced. I personally expected that time would never come, since I had personally known the subject of the article for 24 years, and was quite confident that no such source ever existed or ever would exist. But rather than admit that there was no consensus for retaining the contested material, the other competing editors sought to remove me from the game, through what now you and others have recognized to be a sham RfC. Moulton (talk) 11:29, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

(Afterthought) Why in the world would any encyclopedia article writer make the article reflect what is shouted the loudest or has the most column inches? How does that make any sense at all? That would be an abandonment of thoughtfulness and discrimination. If that's what you want, just use google. faithfully represent what is believed by the most knowledgeable people on the subject of the article. Doesn't that make more sense than mindlessly repeating popular misconceptions widely repeated? A source that reflects lack of knowledge is unreliable. Knowledgeable sources are more reliable than non-knowledgeable sources. Our standard is reliable published sources. WAS 4.250 (talk) 09:38, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

I have no idea why any responsible writer would proportion the contents of an article that way. It makes very little sense to me. That's why I kept stumbling over that "neutrality" definition, because that's what it seemed to say. I would much rather write an objective account that sought to minimize contentious reification of any burbling conflict amongst competing subjective points of view. So when it comes to "faithfully representing what is believed by the most knowledgeable people on the subject of the article," I found myself at a loss when the subject of the article is a professional colleague whom I have known, respected, and worked with for 24 years, whilst the other would-be editors don't have a clue about the subject of the article, having never met her, never read her book or technical publications, never attended one of her talks, never discussed philosophy and beliefs with her, and never romped with her remarkable and energetic children.

—Moulton (talk) 10:28, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

When people can't agree, sometimes someone is pushing a POV or is predjudiced or refusing to listen. Then you bring in other people to get involved, say their opinion, edit, mediate, whatever. Sometimes the other guy will turn out to be in the wrong. Sometimes everyone will agree you are wrong (then you just accept that somehow you are wrong even if you don't see how). Consensus works if you work it; usually. But that depends on being able to find people who care about the subject, or care enough about you to help you out. Hence the politics and usefulness of making friends at wikipedia. WAS 4.250 (talk) 11:16, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

One small nit. To my way of thinking it's not "making friends" that is important. (although I think I have a fair few friends I've made by working on this project, that is a bonus, a side effect) Rather, it's "gaining respect" (for your reasoned discourse, for your ability to work to reach and then respect consensus, for your civility, for your insight, for your good articles, for your hard work in doing tasks that need doing, even if they are unfun, and so forth) that is needed. When and where WP works well, it's a meritocracy, not a clique. Are there cliques? Places where friends stick up for each other regardless of the merits of the arguments, by reflex as it were? Places where WP does not work well? Yes. But that is true in any system formed by humans, we are all of us imperfect, after all.

Moulton, where I think you're off the rails is that you haven't "paid your dues" enough. I'm not telling you anything new, I've said it before, and I think you don't see why you should have to, you think that you should be afforded respect merely by what you are and what you've done elsewhere, but rightly or wrongly, WP doesn't work that way. Maybe it should, maybe it shouldn't, but to be successful here at effecting change, I feel you have to work within the system. (WAS don't take this as a sweeping criticism of your theme, but merely a refinement, I think you're on the mark in what you're saying here). ++Lar: t/c 14:22, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree with your refinement. Thank you for making it. WAS 4.250 (talk) 01:28, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

PrivateMusings came across me on Misplaced Pages Review where, last November, he clicked on a link to one of my articles in the Media Ethics blog. There he posted a comment or two that (as Filll knows) eventually led to my participation in Episode 6 of Not the Misplaced Pages Weekly. My subsequent participation in Episode 11 with Brian Bergstein of the Associated Press brought me into contact with Kim Bruning, whose curiosity about me might never have been aroused, save for the fact that Filll objected to my participation on account of me not being in "good standing" per the outcome of his RfC against me. Kim befriended me and offered to lend his good offices to help address the problems I faced with Filll and his fellow editors from the WikiProject on Intelligent Design. The rest of the story is probably quite well known to anyone reading here. So that's my experience with someone extending to me the hand of friendship, after a brief conversation in the aftermath of an NTWW recording session.

Kim brought in others (notably Ottava Rima) to review and repair the situation, just as WAS describes, above. And in the wake of all that, many more previously uninvolved editors also came forward of their own accord to review the situation and offer their independent comments, analysis, and opinions. Among them, Random832 and Sam Korn were especially instrumental. At some point I hope to be able to write up a comprehensive acknowledgment of everyone who acted in good faith to remediate the lamentable travesty of last August and September. I am frankly less interested in assigning blame and more interested in repairing the damage from that nightmarish misadventure.

I tried to offer respect even to the most egregious of trolls, including Fuckin Broc on MoultonLava and Baegis on my old WP talk page. It grieved me that I was not offered respect in return. It occurs to me that all that free-floating scorn from total strangers cannot have come out of nowhere. But I still don't have a plausible theory to explain it.

Moulton (talk) 16:54, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Lots of people have a lot of free floating anger. The issue of explaining it is like the issue of explaining the begining of life on Earth - there are many possibilities, just no real evidence to choose among some of them. WAS 4.250 (talk) 01:47, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I didn't say anger, I said scorn. Anger is the emotion that is aroused in the wake of an injustice. Since Fuckin Broc and Baegis were strangers with whom I had had no prior encounter, there couldn't not have been any slight or injustice from my quarters to elicit any anger toward me. No, their attitude was one of scorn, derision, and contempt. How can a total stranger, with whom I have no prior history, start off a relationship with an expression of scorn, derision, or contempt? —Moulton (talk) 08:37, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Wow, you are as bad at listening as Filll. Whatever you said; I said anger. And meant it. "Free floating means that the anger expressed at you may have had nothing to do with you. Could the Jews killed in WWII say "there couldn't have been any slight or injustice from my quarters to elicit any anger toward me"? Grow up already. Heard about the guy who comes home from a bad day's work, yells at the wife, who yells at the kid, who kicks the cat? "How can a total stranger, with whom I have no prior history, start off a relationship with an expression of scorn, derision, or contempt?" What world are you living in? People take stuff out on person B because they are angry at person A all the time. WAS 4.250 (talk) 09:50, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

And if I may defend myself, I approached you on your talk page to try to understand why you were having difficulties understanding how the RFC worked process and why it appeared you could not play well with others. And I lost patience at record speed because I quickly saw the behavior and general contempt for others that you had expressed so well in the period up to and including the RFC. I was trying to be a bit of a middleman but that didn't work out so well. Baegisthesock (talk) 13:38, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) Everyone, newbie or grizzled veteran, is entitled to the respect of civility, and unless already demonstrated otherwise, the respect of assuming good faith about their actions. (see WP:BITE) You're supposed to get that for free. But people turn up on my page and ask my advice about things, ask me to fix things, ask me to get involved in things because they respect me in a way that a newbie isn't yet respected. That's a distinction that I didn't make clearly enough. I was referring more to the latter kind of respect above. You have to earn your stripes here. Rightly or wrongly, external credentials entitle you only to a polite hearing, just like any random that turns up and speaks politely, not an entitlement that your words carry any extra weight than anyone else's about anything. If you want your words to carry weight, if you want to have influence in policy and how things are done, you gotta do the time. (conversely, if you want your words to carry weight about article content, you have to provide the cites.) That's my view. I'm not an admin here, a CU, a crat elsewhere, a steward, etc., because I turned up one day and said I could solve everything if only people would listen, and I'm hopefully not a steward merely because I'm popular enough to have gotten 150+ supports from various folk in my election. Rather, I hope I'm a steward because I demonstrated that I was trustworthy, responsible, reliable and active, that I was wise in the ways of the wiki, and I was willing to work within the system. Anyone can edit happily here if they want to. It's up to them, just like taking offense is up to the person. Sometimes they may not want to edit (or not take offense), for good and valid reasons but it's still their choice. What many are saying here is for you to be successful, you have to internalise that and decide you want to go along with it. Rightly or wrongly, it is what it is. I work for change, you know I do... but I do it within the system, it's a choice I made long ago, when I first found my words not carrying the weight *I* thought they should... it seemed no one said "oh!!!! Here's Lar, with 25 years experience in online communities, let's listen closely and do what he says, our problems are over!". I did my time to get my influence. That it happens that I enjoy article writing and some of the rest made it possible and enjoyable to do it. (don't do things here because you see a duty, do them because you enjoy them)... but I did it. I had to. If you can't, I don't think you will succeed in changing anything working internally. This is what I have been telling you all along and why I remain dubious. You need to say you get this and will go along with how things are done here, or you will fail again. ++Lar: t/c 17:38, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

You need to say you get this and will go along with how things are done here, or you will fail again. Totally agree. WAS 4.250 (talk) 01:47, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

You need to say you get this and will go along with how things are done here, or you will fail again. How many times have I said that to you Moulton? 20? 50? 100? More? And not only do you have to say it, but you have to actually mean it and follow it. It is like, let's say a SOCIAL CONTRACT. Ever hear anyone use that phrase? --Filll (talk | wpc) 14:49, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

It's one thing to make a scientific prediction to the effect, "You need to appreciate this and go along with the way things are done here, or you will probably fail," and an anankastic conditional to the effect, "You must say you understand this and agree to go along with the way we do things here, or else it's curtains for you." The former intonation is just a scientific prediction, and I am fine with that and will take my chances in the probability space. The latter intonation comes across to me as coercion regarding a compelled speech act with specified planned and predetermined consequences for refusing to utter the required speech act. For reasons that you may now understand better, the latter intonation is abhorrent to me. That is part of the reason I responded, "Mu," which means "Unask the question." To my mind, answering it, "Yes," would have amounted to participating in an instance of coercion which would have potentially endangered your status here. I frankly didn't know about WP:BAN#Coercion at the time, but it felt improper deep in my kishkes. You see, a Social Contract contains naught but mutually agreeable terms of engagement, and I don't agree to be coerced. —Moulton (talk) 11:59, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Somey has a term of art for people who are wise in the ways of Wiki and know how to get things done. He calls them "fixers" (although, to be fair, I think he uses that term more in a pejorative sense than a respectful one). I watched with great hope as Doc Glasgow and NYB sought to work from the inside to fix the kind of problems that had most disturbed me. And I watched with great horror as alienated outsiders like Daniel Brandt tried to fix WP through strongarm tactics that I frankly abhor.

I am obviously in neither camp. I identify with the moderates who are working at the liminal frontiers of change, and managing not to become discouraged, frustrated, dispirited, or alienated in the process.

A month or so ago, I found myself on the sidelines watching three atomic physicists — one a Canadian professor and two researchers from Los Alamos National Lab — flee from Misplaced Pages in the wake of a nightmare encounter with hostile regulars. And before that, there was the case of Carl Hewitt, Professor Emeritus of MIT (whom I have never met nor corresponded with). What I bring to the table, more than suggestions for change, is the kind of horror story that helps explain why WP is struggling with the problem of "expert withdrawal" — a problem that even Filll recognized enough to highlight on his own personal pages here. I recognize that I have no power on Misplaced Pages, other than the power to bear accurate witness to the best of my ability. I know of the story of the Canadian professor, because he copied me on all his messages to WMF. But he is not going public for reasons that become abundantly clear when one examines the horrifying details of the case.

Writing memoirs of my misadventures in cyberspace communities is not my favorite activity. I'd rather be doing science education. The WMF says its mission is to empower and engage people around the world to collect and develop educational content and effectively disseminate it around the world. I've already been doing that independently of Misplaced Pages for a quarter century, and I expect to continue doing that for the indefinite future. I'm more than willing to lend my good offices and good name to that enterprise within the pages of Misplaced Pages, except for one little problem. I don't have a good office and a good name here. The WikiClique on Intelligent Design took away my good name. And so I have no good offices and no good name to lend to the enterprise. It's up to the community here to decide what, if anything, they want to do about that. It's your choice, not mine. I'll go on about my life's work either way, and write my memoirs either way. The choice is yours. Just let me know, one way or the other.

Moulton (talk) 18:20, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't suppose you ever read the Expert Withdrawal pages? I don't suppose you ever noticed that I was the major contributor on them? I have 3-4 times as many edits to those pages as the number 2 contributor. I made plenty of observations and suggestions about how to improve Misplaced Pages there.

I don't suppose you ever considered that your behavior is a major contributor to the atmosphere which leads to threats of Expert Withdrawal? Just read the threads. Carefully.

I looked into the supposed problem with Hewitt. Sorry I don't see it. I do not deny that there are problems here, but I also notice that you and some of your friends have made the problems far far worse, not better.--Filll (talk) 18:51, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Since January, I've posted about a dozen times on WR about the Expert Withdrawal issue, including links to the page and quotes from it. Here is one instance. In other posts, I've mentioned your name as one of those promoting the discussion with a prominent box on your user page. If you search for "Expert Withdrawal" and author "Moulton" you'll find them all in a few seconds.

Filll, I was only actively editing in WP for about 2 or 3 weeks back in August/September. My "behavior" on this site has been the Null Behavior for almost the entire lifetime of WP except for those two or three weeks plus a few days in December when I posted the RfAr.

Hewitt was scheduled to appear on a panel with Mike Godwin in Santa Cruz a week or two ago, but Godwin pulled out at the last minute, without disclosing a reason.

Moulton (talk) 20:26, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Null = NVA? •Jim62sch• 20:39, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

He means that mostly he has not edited. That's all. WAS 4.250 (talk) 01:47, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

mostly not = sometimes &ne& null. WTF? •Jim62sch• 21:24, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

• Hewitt was scheduled to appear on a panel with Mike Godwin in Santa Cruz a week or two ago, but Godwin pulled out at the last minute, without disclosing a reason. Ah yes that is probably because of some super sekret ID Wikiproject cabal. Makes a lot of sense...--Filll (talk) 20:47, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

The World That Misplaced Pages Made:
The Ethics and Values of Public Knowledge

Thursday May 15
6:00 pm to 7:30 pm
Center for Science Technology and Society
Law School of - High Tech Law Institute
Markkula Center for Applied Ethics

Reception, 6 p.m.; Panel 6:30 p.m.

A panel discussion featuring Carl Hewitt, emeritus,Electrical Engineering and Computer Science, MIT; and Pedro Hernández-Ramos, associate director, Center for Science, Technology, and Society, moderator.

Please Note: Mike Godwin, General Counsel of Wikimedia, was originally scheduled to participate in this event. Last week, Mr. Godwin informed us that he would not participate, and subsequent discussions with Wikimedia Foundation indicated that they would not designate a replacement speaker. We are disappointed that Wikimedia chose not to participate in this event.

Carl Hewitt

Carl Hewitt is Emeritus in Electrical Engineering and Computer Science at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT). He is known for his design of Planner, his work on concurrency (the Actor model), the Scientific Community Metaphor, and, most recently, on strongly paraconsistent logic.

Initially, Hewitt was excited about Misplaced Pages, but experience trying to write for the site has led him to believe that it is unsuited for such academic articles because of problems with "censorship by Misplaced Pages Administrators, lack of accountability, dogmatism, intolerance, and disrespect for expertise."

Moulton (talk) 21:25, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Let's cut to the chase.

Let's cut to the chase. You need to say you will go along with how things are done here and then do so to the best of your ability, or it is pointless to unblock you. It would also be helpful if you were less frustrating to talk to. You have a way of being an exasperating conversation partner. Do you agree to edit[REDACTED] in a way that you honestly believe will usually be met with acceptance (and to back off in any specific instance when you find your belief was wrong) ? Will you try? If not, then we are just wasting our time. Please answer yes or no and not another one of your exasperating philosophical excursions. Will you try? WAS 4.250 (talk) 01:56, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Mu. —Moulton (talk) 02:42, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

That behavior is behavior that is not trying, so even though your answer is "That is an invalid question"; it is in fact a "No" answer. WAS 4.250 (talk) 09:55, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry, WAS, but I had already promised Kim Bruning that I was fine with the WP:5P, modulo the substitution of objective (as I understand it) in lieu of WP:NPOV which I frankly find incomprehensible, disputatious, and argumentative. I generally don't find objective to be as problematic or argumentative as WP:NPOV. I asked Kim if my participation here from August 21st through September 11th of last year departed from WP:5P in any substantive or problematic way. His answer was that to the best of his knowledge I did not depart from WP:5P, but he couldn't be absolutely 100% positive. Your question, above, was worded in a way that seemed to be at odds with my understanding of Kim's offer. Hope this helps.

Moulton (talk) 14:13, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

My offer was inclusive NPOV, but we'd show you how it worked. I think WAS will support you if you state that you will try to follow the five pillars. Worst case you don't quite manage, or don't enjoy working in that manner, in which case you can walk away, but you will still have the benefit of an improved reputation. If you say No, there is absolutely nothing to be gained, and this opportunity will not come again. --Kim Bruning (talk) 14:32, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

As you know, Kim, I have stated that I have always been fine with the five pillars (modulo interpreting NPOV to be essentially synonymous with 'objective'), and (as far as I know) my participation here has never departed in any substantive degree from the five pillars. If there proves to be any substantive distinction between 'objective' and NPOV, I am fine with letting Ottava explain to me the distinction and demonstrate how to correct any resultant discrepancy. I have never stopped endeavoring to do my best, even under difficult circumstances. While I have no reliable way to predict whether my work will be met with acceptance or rejection, I nonetheless confidently believe that my work will ultimately be perceived and recognized as achieving a normative standard of accuracy, excellence, and ethics in online media, appropriate to the enterprise of crafting a respectable encyclopedia that concords with the educational mission of the WMF.

Moulton (talk) 18:04, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I know where you're coming from and how you mean those words, and we've had a cordial discussion, and that's coming almost all the way. But it's too little too late. :-( --Kim Bruning (talk) 18:11, 22 May 2008 (UTC) ironically, if you'd have used less words, it might work out

Anytime one uses "modulo" to defend themselves or advance a position they might as well get out the backhoe and dig two metres. Use it more often -- modulo, modulo, modulo. •Jim62sch• 19:56, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

How does that comment help move the discussion forward? I don't even understand what point you are trying to make there. ++Lar: t/c 20:38, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Obviously, you missed the point, but I'm not going to explain (Think: conversatio mors natale). Moulton will get it (as will others). •Jim62sch• 21:15, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Your objectives

I guarantee if you do not agree to follow the rules and take instruction in how to behave here, you will have the same experience you did the last time. You might even be shown the door quicker.

I know you want to "improve" the system, according to your own intuition and undestanding. My interpretation is that you want to dictate rules to tens of thousands of other users, based on nothing besides the fact that you are Moulton. That is not how a collaborative, consensus-driven enterprise like Misplaced Pages works. The fact that you even believe it is possible when you do not understand the system is mind-boggling, and shows you are not much of a "scientist" or "researcher" at all.

If you want to try to improve the system (as I and many others do), you have to understand it first. And you will not understand it by sitting over at WR and throwing stones at Misplaced Pages with other malcontents. And you will not understand the system by demanding that you be allowed to disobey all the policies and practices and conventions, and to insult others at will who are only trying to follow the rules, and do so with impunity and no consequences.

I would suggest that you do what I did; pick some very bland topics you are interested in, like the theatre, or some playwrite, or chess, or Arabic poetry and build up a few FA and GA articles over a few months. Get at least 20,000 edits under your belt, and write a good 100 articles or more.

Then try a controversial article in an area in which you are not personally involved, like "race and IQ" or "chiropractic" or "electronic voice phenomenon". Get at least 500 edits on the talk page of a controversial article trying to broker a consensus between warring factions and get the article closer to the standards that Misplaced Pages aspires to (not your standards, but Misplaced Pages's).

Put some time in closing threads at the COI noticeboard or a few other noticeboards.

Then and only then will you have enough background to begin suggesting changes to Misplaced Pages's culture. Then and only then will you understand enough for your statements on improving Misplaced Pages to make any sense. Then and only then will anyone pay attention to you at all, and even then you will mostly be ignored.

That is reality. Deal with it. Otherwise, you are like an illiterate high school dropout demanding a chaired position in the English Department at Harvard. It ain't gunna happen.--Filll (talk | wpc) 15:05, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

C'mon Moulton, respond. It might be good for eweyou. •Jim62sch• 19:59, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

How does that comment help move the discussion forward? It seems like baiting to me. and what is with the "ewe". ++Lar: t/c 20:38, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

A bit repetitive, yew no. :) Anyway, there was nothing with the ewe, I just like playing with words, but I'll replace it sew there's know confusion. •Jim62sch• 20:08, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

What Is the Rate of Progress?

On Monday, I published an article on the Media Ethics blog entitled, What Is the Name of This Problem?

I also copied it, verbatim, to a discussion thread on Misplaced Pages Review.

Today, I noticed on my watchlist that there had been some new activity on the article on A Scientific Dissent From Darwinism.

Yesterday, it seems, WAS 4.250, undertook to correct a long-festering inaccuracy in that article. And he also posted a comment about it on the article's talk page. Having moved the ball closer to the goal line of accuracy, excellence, and ethics, the previous editors pushed back with all their might, so there was modest net gain in yardage at the end of two days. The article still does not acknowledge that the name, "A Scientific Dissent From Darwinism" was originally just the headline on the Anti-PBS ad of 2001.

I suppose I might have used the same 32-word petition in an ad headlined "100 Scientists Urge Rigorous Adherence to the Protocols of the Scientific Method When Examining Evidence in Support of Scientific Theories" followed by a couple of paragraphs of advertising copy explaining what that means. And I suppose I could have later launched a promotional web site, RigorInScience.Org, soliciting even more signatures. I wonder if those 100 scientists would have smiled in approval or frowned in disapproval of the way I had interpreted and promoted their previously untitled statement.

When I wrote that Media Ethics blog article on Monday, the key references were #19 and #20, buried deep in the article. Now the key references are #1 and #2. That's as it should be, since they are the references one must examine to sort {fact} from fiction PR spin.

So good for you, WAS 4.250. You're a mensch in my book. We've come a long way in a mere 10 months. We're halfway to the goal now. Zeno would be kvelling in his grave.

And thanks to PelleSmith, too, for pointing out that whatever goes for the main article goes for the WP:COATRACKS out there in that ever-hazardous BLP space.

Moulton (talk) 02:40, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Credit goes entirely to the ID people (Felonious Monk, etc) who took my half-baked ideas and improved the article with them. WAS 4.250 (talk) 10:01, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

What ID people? You mean Raul 654 and Filll who blanket reverted you? Or do you mean those who further developed Talk:Rosalind Picard into a combat zone trying to support exactly the phrase that Dave finally changed--you know the unverifiable statement that the petition is itself "promoting intelligent design." By all means thanks to Dave for taking some initiative after being prompted by your edit and the commentary on the talk page the followed, but lets not be so quick to pat other people on the back who already have issues with self-righteousness. I remain entirely disturbed by the debacle that took place at the Picard entry, and Filll (re: below) I welcome your emergence from the simplistic behavioral modeling some people have applied. Anytime you're ready.PelleSmith (talk) 15:28, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Guess you missed my edit summary. Is there not something at Misplaced Pages called a "bold, revert, discuss" cycle? Hmm...--Filll (talk | wpc) 16:15, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Isn't that interesting? Wow that does not fit with the simplistic model some have been pushing around here, does it?--Filll (talk | wpc) 15:07, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

The rate of progress in bringing the article up to standards (in terms of accuracy, excellence, and ethics in online media) appears to be picking up the pace. An IP editor has introduced a crucial improvement in the opening sentence:

A Scientific Dissent from Darwinism (or Dissent From Darwinism) is the name given to a petition notable for its use in promoting intelligent design. It is a list of signatories attesting to a statement, produced by the Discovery Institute, expressing skepticism about the ability of natural selection to account for the complexity of life, and encouraging careful examination of the evidence for "Darwinism". This list was first published in advertisements under an added introduction which stated that its signatories dispute the assertion that Darwin’s theory of evolution fully explains the complexity of living things, and dispute that "all known scientific evidence supports evolution".

The most important part is the insertion of "the name given to". This important edit now helps the reader appreciate that the name given to the petition by the DI is not the name on the petition (it actually had no printed title on it at all). The article still doesn't reveal that the name initially appeared as the headline in the advertisement cited in Ref #1.

I hope our intrepid IP editor also attends to the "See also" section where the List of signatories to "A Scientific Dissent From Darwinism" takes the reader to another article that begins:

These are some of the individuals who have signed the Discovery Institute's pro-intelligent design/anti-evolution statement, A Scientific Dissent from Darwinism.

So once again, we need to revise that to correct the inaccurate characterization of this list as living persons whom Misplaced Pages has inexplicably identified as proponents of ID or opponents of evolution.

Moulton (talk) 02:08, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Bupkes. •Jim62sch• 20:06, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Patience, Perseverance, and Exasperation

On the weekends, I supervise a puzzle activity in Cahners Computer Place at the Boston Museum of Science.

Not everyone has the temperament to focus their attention for a long spell on a challenging puzzle.

One of the first observations I can make of a would-be puzzle solver is if they have patience and perseverance, or if they get frustrated and exasperated.

Patience and perseverance are the hallmarks of a potential scientist, academic, or researcher. It's not uncommon when a family comes in that one sibling or parent will exhibit patience and perseverance, while the other will be impatient and easily frustrated or exasperated.

Which leads me to one of my favorite puzzles...

When someone is exasperated, they will make a sound something like, "Arrgghhh!!!" I call this an Exhalation of Exasperation. It's an easily recognizable phase of the discovery learning cycle.

So here's the puzzle. If Exhalation of Exasperation is the name of a commonly observed phase, what is the complementary name of the exact opposite phase?

Moulton (talk) 08:09, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

What is the point of this question? ++Lar: t/c 17:20, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Dunno, but it's actually made me ponder the question ... against my better judgment! :) - Alison 18:16, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I will boldly predict that Alison will solve it first. —Moulton (talk) 19:21, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I will boldly predict that it has zero direct bearing on whether or not you will be unblocked whether it is solved or not. (and a net negative secondary effect) My question stands. ++Lar: t/c 20:37, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

The point is very clear, Lar. In the process of solving a difficult problem, there is an intermediate phase where one experiences the emotional state of exasperation. Then, at a later phase, when the solution miraculously appears, there is a phase change to another affective emotional state. If the intermediate phase is recognized by an Exhalation of Exasperation, who here can characterize the successor phase and supply the linguistically comparable name for it? —Moulton (talk) 22:22, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Or it is an exhalation of complete frustration on the part of each of these editors who have stuck their collective necks out on your part. Ya know, whichever is easier to understand. Baegis (talk) 00:25, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I demand a refund for the time wasted in reading this. OrangeMarlin 00:33, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Inhalation of Inspiration. Guettarda (talk) 05:07, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Very good! —Moulton (talk) 15:35, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Aha! Our mystery puzzle solver from Atlanta turns out to be a Wikipedian after all. Well done, Guettarda. —Moulton (talk) 02:00, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Uh, yeh. Philosophically and linguistically this is effluvium: recognized by an Exhalation of Exasperation, who here can characterize the successor phase and supply the linguistically comparable name for it? At least try to be poetic when spewing honeyed scarf to the masses. •Jim62sch• 20:34, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Alas, poetry is my short suite, Jim. But I understand you have a knack for crafting rhyming verses, so I invite you (or any other would-be contestant) to recast the above puzzle in the form of a clever poem. —Moulton (talk) 11:46, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

From da OED: "elevated or sublime in expression." You really don't want me to write a poem, it'd be far too satirical for these tender pages. Oh, it's "suit"•Jim62sch• 20:11, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Critical Response

The Scientific Dissent From Darwinism article has been narrowly criticized on several different grounds. First, similar to related articles produced by the same group of allied editors, the professional expertise of the dominant clique of editors is not always apparent and is suspected to be deficient in scientific rigor and journalistic ethics. Also, the professional affiliations and credentials for some of the dominant editors is open to question. Finally, there appear to be many who recently participated in the substantial improvement of these articles who are not committed to the agenda of the WikiClique on Intelligent Design, and who have at times been treated abusively or who have changed their minds about trying to work with the main group of editors on these interlinked articles.

Moulton (talk) 02:58, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Moulton, please consider this your only warning for any sort of attack (slight or grievous) on the editors of the ID wiki-project and any and all other editors. If your talk page is to remain open, posts like the one above need to be excluded. You have to give a little or everyone will wash their hands of your situation. So, please be mindful of this warning. I have also advised other editors to avoid baiting remarks on this page, as seen on the AN board. You may not feel the above is an attack, but considering the length of your collective postings about this particular wiki-project on WR, you would be best served by dropping this issue. If you choose to reply to this warning, please do so in a constructive manner. Thank you. Baegis (talk) 03:59, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Narcissistic Wounding

There is a children's game which involves a kind of sting known as Narcissistic Wounding. You can tell when children are playing this game because they punctuate a stinging remark with, "Neener." The respondent then tosses a return barb, and signs it with, "Neener, neener."

Not all children play this game in a spirit of good humor. Sometimes a youngster becomes stigmatized by an especially severe Narcissistic Wound and flies into a Narcissistic Rage.

It is unknown what happens to stigmatized and traumatized youngsters who fail to heal themselves of Narcissistic Wounds, but I imagine it may become a burning issue for some.

Moulton (talk) 04:43, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

If I may quote Lar, what is the point of this message? Baegis (talk) 11:20, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

In a typical game, one scores points. However, the mission of the WMF is to empower and engage people around the world to collect and develop educational content and effectively disseminate it around the world. That's what I'm doing here. Incidentally, whenever you see a red link here, it means Misplaced Pages does not have an article on that subject. —Moulton (talk) 15:42, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

... or that it's a case-sensitive redirect, as with narcissistic wound. :) MastCell  19:25, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

If I reall Narcissis was extremely "beautiful", hence he was stricken by his beauty, fell and drowned. Oh well, I guess idears fit. Sometimes. •Jim62sch• 21:28, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Hrmmm.... That redirect goes to an article on Narcissistic Personality Disorder, which doesn't seem to focus very much (if at all) on pedestrian instances of narcissistic wounding as applied to the majority of the population who do not suffer from that particular Cluster B Personality Disorder. As near as I can tell, the phrase "narcissistic wound" doesn't even appear in the article it redirects to. Is this not an opportunity for someone knowledgeable in the subject to be invited to help improve the quality of the articles that touch on this topic? —Moulton (talk) 12:18, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, you were the first to use the term here. Nonetheless, did you notice MC's emoticon? •Jim62sch• 20:14, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Eh, there used to be a stub there, before it was redirected. I agree it could be a useful and informative standalone article, though I lack the grounding in psychology to produce one. Is Sam Vaknin an expert in the field? Not to be snobby, but according to teh Interwebs, his Ph.D. is from Pacific Western University, which some consider an unaccredited online diploma mill. Though someone with his experience in business and politics undoubtedly has had some practical experience with narcissism... MastCell  22:33, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

The Peerless Editors of the WikiClique on Intelligent Design

The editors of the WikiClique on Intelligent Design are without peer.

Which is a bit of a problem.

You see, one of the most important concepts in the protocols of the Scientific Method is the practice of Peer Review.

It's been a maddeningly difficult task to subject the articles of this WikiClique to outside peer review.

The putative agenda of the WikiClique on Intelligent Design is to fight off pseudo-science — an objective that I'm quite sympathetic to.

But it occurs to me that one cannot fight off pseudo-science with methods that do not themselves scrupulously honor the rigors of science. And so, I was chagrined to observe the WikiClique on Intelligent Design depart from the protocols of the Scientific Method in favor of alternative methods of battle. To my mind, one must be scrupulously rigorous in examining the evidence for any hypothesis and reason carefully to scientifically defensible conclusions enroute to the ground truth. And one of the most important aspects of the Scientific Method is independent Peer Review.

The honorable scientist welcomes peer review, which often discovers correctable errors or other deficiencies which can be addressed to produce a more reliable theory or model well-grounded in evidence and reasoning. Moreover a good peer review can also introduce valuable new points of view previously overlooked.

Is this not a good thing for an enterprise whose mission is to empower and engage people around the world to collect and develop educational content and effectively disseminate it around the world?

Moulton (talk) 18:50, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Peer review is a two way street. And you have been reviewed. And guess what the verdict was?--Filll (talk | wpc) 18:51, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I believe the jury is still out on your curious and fascinating model of the character whose name is Moulton. Would this be a good opportunity to call for a peer review of Filll's proposed scientific model of Moulton's character? —Moulton (talk) 19:02, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Well you probably should not be part of the jury. Let's let others decide, shall we?--Filll (talk | wpc) 19:52, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Of course not. Independent peer review must be done by independent parties who are not on the same research team as the primary author of a piece of scientfic analysis. —Moulton (talk) 13:05, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

You know most often peer review is anonymous I am sure. And you also should have read what I posted below about peer review. And should also be aware of my suggetions about it on the Expert Withdrawal pages. And someone who is a glorified engineer should not be lecturing others about the scientific method, because frankly, it looks a bit silly. Particularly your performance at the Picard article is just beyond ludicrous. What do you think the majority of the Biology Department at MIT would think of your behavior and your claims? Laughable.--Filll (talk | wpc) 15:03, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

I have no problem being silly on my own talk page. Feel free to chuckle all you like. As to my reputation for being an insufferable pedant, no one is obliged to visit my talk page if they don't care for my contributions to the educational advancement of the community. And by all means, invite the members of the MIT community here to provide independent perspectives on any of the articles or scientific analyses that are up for independent peer review. —Moulton (talk) 15:25, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn't waste the time of any rational serious person to read through reems of material claiming that a New York Times article did not say what a New York Times article said, and that it is unethical to state that "The New York Times stated X" when it clearly did. That is ridiculous. --Filll (talk | wpc) 15:29, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

How do you know what the headline of one article in one newspaper suggested for a downstream event, occurring in 2006, is the ground truth for an antecedent event occurring in 2001? —Moulton (talk) 15:38, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Did you ever hear of the principle that Misplaced Pages is about verifiability, not truth? That is pretty close to how it is, whether you like it or not. For good reason. Now Picard might be an alien from another planet in reality, but since that is not in any reliable sources, we do not put it in her article. Picard might be actually a male who has had a sex change operation, but since we do not have any reliable sources about that, we do not put it in her article. Picard might actually be the Pope's love child, but since we do not have any reliable sources about that, we do not put it in her article. The New York Times might be controlled by an evil Jewish cabal that wants to attack Picard by putting false stories in the NYT about Picard, but since we do not have any reliable sources about that, we do not put in the article. You probably will not understand this, since you believe you and only you are the only correct person on planet earth and deserve to dictate to everyone else. But that is not how a collaborative consensual online environment works. And sorry, that is just how it is.--Filll (talk | wpc) 15:48, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

<outdent>Here is our corresponding colloquy from last August 31, 2006:

Enough is enough.--Filll 16:29, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

So, let me get this straight. A single ill-chosen word appearing nowhere but in the headline of only one story (the content of which does not support the sweeping headline) suffices in your mind to firmly and irretrievably commit Misplaced Pages to publishing a demonstrably false (and potentially harmful and defamatory) characterization of 103 scientist, notwithstanding copious evidence to the contrary? Moulton 20:20, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

It is over, and time for the RfC I believe.--Filll 21:11, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Moulton (talk) 16:00, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Yeah? So? The fact that you wanted to tendentiously argue and argue and argue and argue and fight with other editors, lie to me, not follow my direction when I told you how to fix Picard's biography, and get the police involved when I tried to help you, and generally cause huge chaos should be welcomed with open arms? If Misplaced Pages is involved in defamation, so is the New York Times. I know you contacted Mike Godwin. Did he think you had a defamation case? File an OTRS ticket. Hire a lawyer yourself and ask. But you have continued down the same path. Plenty of your fellow malcontents at WR have told you you are going about this the wrong way, and they are correct. Why did you not follow Durova's suggestion when she told you how to fix this? Why did you not follow Kim Bruning's advice when he told you how to behave? Why did Lar and WAS 4.250 eventually give up hope when they tried to argue your case and help you? I see nothing but the same pattern repeated over and over and over. You burn every bridge you have. Why is that? Are we just rats in a cage for you to experiment with? Want to see our reactions? Want to see how annoying you can be before someone does something imprundent? Will you write it all up in a nice blog entry or a draft of some research paper? Publish it on your website? Put in a school newspaper at some minor college? --Filll (talk | wpc) 20:32, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Do you take exception to the practice of writing a personal memoir that bears accurate witness to an exceptional episode in one's life? —Moulton (talk) 00:10, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

And this is supposed to make people think you should be unblocked? All of your recent rants here are ample evidence that you are unsuited to participating constructively at Misplaced Pages. Odd nature (talk) 19:16, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I have not requested to be unblocked. The community's review of the circumstances of last year (and the aftermath) may or may not lead them to conclusively determine if the original handling of my case was normative or not. If the Misplaced Pages community at large determines it was perfectly normative, then that will satisfy me and I will have no further interest in participating in the Misplaced Pages community, going forward. So far, the commmunity's opinion on that issue appears to be mixed and unsettled. —Moulton (talk) 13:05, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Moulton, this community is about creating the best encyclopedia we can; not resolving issues of right and wrong, who has been naught or nice, or due process or normativeness. We kick people out when some of us think that they are a liability to encyclopedia making and let them back in when some of us think that they will be an asset. Perhaps you will understand if I speak your language. You asked "Was I given due process?" Arbcom said "Mu." You ask now "Was the treatment afforded me normative?" The community says "Mu." WAS 4.250 (talk) 19:49, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

WAS, there is an interesting quote at the end of an interesting dialogue by an interesting genius named Raymond Smullyan:

If you want to get the plain truth,
Be not concerned with right and wrong.
The conflict between right and wrong
Is the sickness of the mind.

The quote is attributed to the Zen poet, Seng-Ts'an. —Moulton (talk) 00:10, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

"there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so" WAS 4.250 (talk) 07:48, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

There is similar Taoist proverb along the same lines:

Think about Right and Wrong, and one immediately falls into Error. —Taoist Proverb

Or, for a considerably drier and more analytical investigation into the same meme, see this unauthorized essay: Disjunction Dysfunction and the Error Function. —Moulton (talk) 10:18, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

You should know that we have had an outside peer-review of our evolution article and it was quite positive. We also get informal peer-reviews of our intelligent design article. Both of these, as well as introduction to evolution were extensively reviewed as part of the inhouse FAC process. And you, as a systems scientist who works on online communities and journalism and affective computing, are qualified to review articles in this area? How many times has Nature Cell Biology or Cell contacted you recently for a review of an article? I guess you did a lot of reviewing for Creation/Evolution journal? Oxford University Press has had you review works like Creationism's Trojan Horse have they? You are a renowned expert in this area are you?--Filll (talk | wpc) 19:49, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Applied science is not real science. That's why they support ID, because they don't understand scientific method. Engineers, computer engineers, etc. aren't scientists. But what do I know, my IQ probably doesn't break 2 digits. OrangeMarlin 22:41, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I am unclear on the distinctions you are making between applied science and "real science." For the first half of my career I was a Systems Engineer with the Bell System. In the late 1980's my job classification at MITRE was "Lead Engineer" in an organization that also had a job classification of "Lead Scientist". By 1990, I had become a "Visiting Scientist" at BBN bridging the gap between applied science and theory construction. The transition from engineer to theoretical scientist was cemented when my colleagues and I at the MIT Media Lab garnered the Best Theory Paper Award in 2001. —Moulton (talk) 12:45, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

No, not you

No, I wasn't referring to you. I meant all the things they have said about people like Slim Virgin. I don't think you're making sense, but I wouldn't call what you had to say "filth". Guettarda (talk) 02:51, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

As far as I know, I haven't said anything to or about SV, as I've never had occasion to encounter her in the pages of Misplaced Pages. Her backstory may be of interest to some but it holds no fascination or thrall for me. —Moulton (talk) 03:12, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Thrall? Hmm. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 05:48, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Thrall "a. One, such as a slave or serf, who is held in bondage. b. One who is intellectually or morally enslaved. 2. Servitude; bondage: "a people in thrall to the miracles of commerce"" Moulton is simply saying that he is not in bondage or a slave, mentally or physically, to uncovering a so-called "slim virgin" - to seeking the "backstory" of "Slimvirgin". He claims no fascination with spreading wide the fascinating tale of her prior escapades nor her history of involvements. Makes sense to me. What's your problem? WAS 4.250 (talk) 10:17, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

I will freely admit to my genuine obsessions. I am quite frankly attached to the goal of seeing Misplaced Pages rise to a commendable level of accuracy, excellence, and ethics in media, especially when the subject of a mainspace article (or even a non-mainspace limited biographical sketch) is an identifiable living person. —Moulton (talk) 11:31, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

So now are you going to claim that my account and my advice and other information in that subpage is somehow invalid or defamatory, although it can all be backed up with diffs and personal emails and offwiki materials? Do you really insist on making this very very ugly? Do you really want to have your named dragged through the mud? What on earth? I mean you no harm. I just do not want you spewing nonsense on Misplaced Pages that others have to deal with and clean up, at tremendous cost. --Filll (talk | wpc) 20:06, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

I have expressed at some length to Kim Bruning my desire that the biographical sketch of me which you have drawn on your user pages be reviewed for compliance with WP:BLP, per this clause:

Non-article space

As the introduction says:

Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material about living persons—whether the material is negative, positive, or just questionable—should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion, from Misplaced Pages articles, talk pages, user pages, and project space.

Moulton (talk) 09:29, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

By the way, what are we to make of your far worse attacks on me and other editors here on Misplaced Pages at off-wiki venues? I start to see how you were previously "targeted" in your previous difficulties with online communities. Behaving like this is not the way to make friends and influence people, at least influence them in a positive way. Please try to reconsider your stance and behave in a civilized reasonable fashion. This is just not some game here you know. And attacking others will not help you reach your goals. --Filll (talk | wpc) 20:15, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

I recommend and propose that those off-wiki commentaries under my journalistic byline be independently peer reviewed for accuracy, ethics, and scientific rigor, in accordance with the protocols the scientific method and journalistic standards of excellence. —Moulton (talk) 09:37, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Interestingly, I have just been contacted by someone from The WELL with an account of your tremendously obnoxious behavior there and disruption there. So that makes three other online communities that you have caused so much trouble in that they have taken various steps against you. That is three BESIDES Misplaced Pages, making at least four in all. Do you think if I looked further I might find more of these examples? Come on now, do you really expect us to treat you seriously after your past history here and in other online communities?--Filll (talk | wpc) 20:38, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Would that perchance be someone from this group of hecklers critics there? —Moulton (talk) 09:47, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Ah, well. That makes sense. Jon Awbrey has a similar past. And both seem to be wearing out their welcome at WR also including with each other. A prior comment you made about treating wikipedians as lab rats and other guesses was also an impression he gave me. But this whole thing as simply an expression of a personality flaw that he is incapable of fixing and has displayed elsewhere does seem to fit the facts better. But we are still guessing. In any case it seems abundantly clear that he is not suited to wikipedia. Oh, and an earlier comment about his use of the word "modulo" - I agree that it an example of his inability to successfully communicate - it is almost as if he goes out of his way to be difficult. Like Jon. WAS 4.250 (talk) 21:44, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

I take exception to being placed in the same class as Jon Awbrey. We are each idiosyncratically iconoclastic and sui generis in our own uniquely irritating way. —Moulton (talk) 09:55, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

(ri) Now Filll, you know that some of us are thralls to drama. No biggie really, probably better than living on haldol. (WAS -- thrall ain't no verb, unless you're Alfred Lawn Tennison). Mouton, I said poetic, not arcane. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 21:33, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Jim62sch, English is more flexible than that. If I choose to use a noun as a verb, it is part of the nature of the English language that it be allowed so long as its meaning is clear. WAS 4.250 (talk) 21:44, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

No... verbing wierds the language. :) MastCell  22:38, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2006/02/26/curbing_the_verbing/ :) WAS 4.250 (talk) 23:20, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the link - I thought I was quoting Bloom County, but turns out it was Calvin. MastCell  05:46, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

WAS, I'm quite aware of the incredible flexibility of the English language, thank you. However, as I noted, thrall as used above is arcane. (My bad saying it was a verb). But, as I too use arcane words, I suppose I shouldn't bitch. Sorry Moulton, sometimes I get pissy over silly crap. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 20:46, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Delusional

Moulton, you said, just now: "To my mind, answering it, "Yes," would have amounted to participating in an instance of coercion which would have potentially endangered your status here." Frankly, that's a delusional response on your part to a plea from me for you to agree to try. Try what? Read it again. If you are so defensive about being merely asked to try to edit in a collaborative fashion, no wonder you show every sign that you are unfit to edit here. As for WP:BLP and comments here about you, the key part is

"In project space, we maintain information about users that we need to make administrative choices. These pages are visible to everyone for the sake of openness and transparency, which is essential to the success and health of the WikiMedia mission. Usernames at Misplaced Pages are often associated with off-Misplaced Pages identities, and negative comments can be the source of difficulties, including legal problems. It helps both the people behind these identities and Misplaced Pages itself if this information is dealt with thoughtfully, carefully, and even creatively in edge cases. If in doubt about the appropriateness of publishing certain claims about living persons in project space, unbiased consultation is still important, but one should take care not to publish effectively the same information in seeking advice. Consider using alternative means other than on-wiki posting if necessary, such as e-mail, to discuss the issue with other editors, administrators, or the Arbitration Committee." (most of which I wrote)

We need to keep certain data on you for purposes of knowing how to deal with you. But we should accommodate you as much as possible within that limit. Perhaps it would be best to end this farce and make the pages you find objectionable (perhaps including this one) visible only to admins. WAS 4.250 (talk) 13:46, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

WAS, if you think that concern is delusional, please take note of the model I relied on to reckon that concern. As you may be aware, there is an allegation against Cla68 that he has leveled a coercive threat against members of the Wikiproject on ID. Earlier this morning, before I came here to my talk page, I was reviewing some newly filed evidence and analysis against Cla68.

You can find it here. I had viewed the disturbing event in question as an instance of Cla68 making a plausible scientific prediction — that something was likely to happen because the conditions were ripe for it to happen. But another observer viewed it not as a scientific prediction, but as a threat to intentionally cause the event in question to occur, and he viewed it as coercion in the form of an anankastic conditional: "Stand down or else this bad thing will come to pass."

That was an eye-opener for me, WAS, because I hadn't appreciated the subtle distinction between viewing an anankastic conditional as a scientific model of reality vs viewing it as an act of bullying.

Now which of those two ways of viewing it is the ground truth, and which is delusional? And how can you reliably tell which view is accurate?

Moulton (talk) 15:45, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Oh, I see. You were not being delusional. You were using your explanation as an opportunity to express dissatisfaction with an allegation against Cla68. You operate on many levels, as do all highly intelligent people. I am glad that I misread you. WAS 4.250 (talk) 15:56, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Alas, these text-only conversation spaces are susceptible to misreading because they filter out all the non-verbal cues that normally help us establish the emotional tenor. Without that affective cueing sub-channel, it's maddeningly hard to infer affective attitude or intentionality. In the jungle, that's called Identify Friend or Foe. Here in cyberspace, I call it Identify Fiend or Foof. If you find yourself perplexed as to what affective state I'm in, your best default assumption is that I'm in a state of perplexity. That's my normal baseline state, most of the time. —Moulton (talk) 16:17, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Turning now to the WP:BLP issue, the policy you cite refers to project space, not user space. And the policy further refers to administrative decision-making. The biographical sketch I referred to is in user space, not project space, and it's maintained by someone who (as far as I know) is not an administrator.

Since I am unable to respond in that person's user space, I responded here, instead.

Moulton (talk) 16:05, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

"Scientific explanation" is stretching just a bit. Based on the wording of the original and subsequent statements Cla68's verbiage can only be seen as not so diaphanously veiled threats issued in public fora. Clinton's parsing of "is" made sense; saying that Cla68 was being scientific is nonsense. When "if X then Y" contains an "or else" there is clearly an implied threat, not a statement of unconditional certainty. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 20:58, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration#Moulton

Please see the above request for arbitration that I have filed regarding your block status. Please feel free to create a statement here, and I, or another user will copy it across to the main RfArb page. Regards, Ryan Postlethwaite 20:36, 25 May 2008 (UTC)