Misplaced Pages

talk:What Misplaced Pages is not - Misplaced Pages

Article snapshot taken from[REDACTED] with creative commons attribution-sharealike license. Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat. We can research this topic together.

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Masem (talk | contribs) at 03:33, 15 June 2008 (→PLOT is disputed). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Revision as of 03:33, 15 June 2008 by Masem (talk | contribs) (→PLOT is disputed)(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff)
This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the What Misplaced Pages is not page.
Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59Auto-archiving period: 14 days 
This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the What Misplaced Pages is not page.
Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59Auto-archiving period: 14 days 

How to tweak WP:PLOT

Pixelface has suggested up above that we tweak WP:PLOT somehow to make it clear that an article consisting solely of plot is not a reason to delete, pointing to this edit as an example of how to word it. I think that's a very good point which is best made in our editing policy, so to better make this fit with that policy, how should we amend the current wording? How about "A concise plot summary is appropriate as part of the larger coverage of a fictional work, and in keeping with editing policy where at all possible information plot summaries should be so integrated in an encyclopedic manner"? Hiding T 09:43, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

If an article fails any part of WP:NOT (or indeed any other core content policy), then the question is whether it can be fixed or whether it should be deleted, and WP:PLOT is no exception. In general, it is preferable to fix the problems with the article, but sometimes deletion is exactly the right thing to do. Again, that's true in general, and is not specific to PLOT.
If we need to clarify the "fixable" issue then we need to do so for all types of content issues. It may be more appropriate to amend WP:DP#Reasons for deletion, and perhaps add a reference to editing policy there. It's a mistake to create a special case for plot summaries. Jakew (talk) 11:14, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
That's an idea. How would we amend WP:DP#Reasons for deletion? I think a lot of this stems from the fact that there has been some sort of movement on Misplaced Pages to dress some opinions as objective rather than subjective. It is of course objective that an article consists solely of plot. It is of course subjective that it should be deleted because of this to improve Misplaced Pages. Hiding T 11:55, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
Clearly we should change the deletion policy and create WP:Plot summaries, as well as change WP:AFD and institute WP:POSTPONE in order to support WP:FICT instead of simply removing a bad idea that never had consensus to begin with from policy. Clearly. --Pixelface (talk) 22:20, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
This is clearly true. You cannot make sweeping judgements. Some plot-only articles can clearly be improved to be encyclopedic, some are suitable for merge to another article, whilst some are plainly untenable. It is the last of those three which means that WP:PLOT can be a reason for deletion, but may not always be so. What we must not do is remove PLOT from the reasons for deletion completely, because that's clearly a slippery slope regarding the rest of WP:NOT. There is an argument that such untenable articles can generally be deleted through failure to meet WP:V, but that's a separate issue. Black Kite 12:21, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
<ec> Well, here's the problem I have, and I think this is still true. We don't delete because of WP:PLOT, we delete because of WP:CONSENSUS. We nominate because of WP:PLOT. An admin has to weigh a debate, determining rough consensus in an impartial manner, looking at underlying policy. Now it appears that WP:PLOT is being utilised in this form as a reason to delete, in ignorance of WP:EP, which indicates we should preserve information. Maybe we need to decide which policies it is that an admin bows to in closing a deletion debate. Looking at WP:EP, it would indicate WP:OR, WP:V, WP:BLP and WP:COPYRIGHT are the policies which decide information which should be deleted, but not WP:NOT. Thoughts? Hiding T 13:01, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
The problem with AfD at the moment is that "rough consensus" is being obscured by large amounts of block voting on the most tenuous of policy-related reasons (or more often, no reason at all). It is getting very difficult for many admins to wade through this morass of non-votes, many of which ignore WP:V and WP:OR, never mind WP:NOT. Black Kite 13:42, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
To be honest I've ignored afd as much as I can for something like 18 months now. I became very disillusioned with it and realised participation wasn't mandatory. You'd have to wonder what would happen if we ignored afd altogether. Imagine if we only deleted through CSD and PROD. Maybe more cleanup would happen? We'd perhaps keep articles in a better shape. It is a thought. Maybe we would need a "Is this a hoax page", and some sort of deletion process for contentious biographies, but beyond that? Hmmm... food for thought... Hiding T 13:48, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
AFD is still needed: it should however be the last step in dispute resolution, not the first. There will be fundamental disagreements if a page, after all good faith efforts are exhausted, meets NOT or NOTE or similar policy, say, only one secondary source is found to show a work being notable, which begs if that is "significant coverage". This isn't a CSD case, and the PROD would be contested. Assuming that there's been dispute resolution before this point, AFD is a proper venue to get more input on whether appropriate policies have been made. Mind you, there are problems when you have tried DR, and you present an article for deletion where tons of keep votes without policy backing get put on; we need to have closing admins carefully evaluation and fully explain their actions so that even if an article is deleted, those that filled the box with "keep" don't feel disenfranchised. (eg: "While there were a lot of "keep" votes, they did not comment on the original nom's question of the article's notability.") But that's more a behavioral problem at WP:DEL than at WP:NOT. --MASEM 14:05, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
You've preloaded the debate by asserting that such a page should be deleted. This is why afd may be broken. Hiding T 14:11, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
My argument could go both ways: maybe there's a group that completely want to delete a topic based on IDONTLIKEIT grounds (see things like Homoepathy). The point I was trying to make is regardless of the state of the article, AFD is a necessary step in dispute resolution; if we allow for CSD and PROD, we need AFD to handle contested cases. The problem I agree is in line with the above: that AFD is too often used as a first step, and too many AFD via PLOT with the intent of delete, when really the step should have been to work with the page editors to either avoid failing PLOT by adding information, or finding a suitable merge point to retain information. Are there still times where AFD is needed in cases of topics failing PLOT? Sure: say someone creates a character article for a character already described in reasonable detail on a list of characters, and ultimately the article can't be shown to expand more than just a plot summary. At that point, it is assumed that deletion of the content is fine since it's already present, but a redirect should be left in place. However, such cases should be rare.
Maybe what is needed is a more formal "Articles for Merge" process than the one we have presently, which specifically should be used with PLOT-failing articles instad of AFD. In otherwords, there would be a central point for all such discussions and run in the same manner as AFD, though people should be !voting "Keep" or "Merge" or variations thereof. --MASEM 14:27, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
I don't understand what your suggestion is intended to achieve, Masem. If deletion is a valid outcome in an "Articles for Merge" process, then it would serve exactly the same function as AfD (with, perhaps, less focus on deletion, so it may have merit in this respect, but why limit it to PLOT?). On the other hand, if deletion is not a valid outcome, then there would be no effect if the consensus at AfD would have been to keep or merge, but exactly the opposite of consensus if the outcome at AfD would have been to delete. Jakew (talk) 15:01, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, not making myself clear. We have a problem that AFD can often result in generally four outcomes instead of three: keep, delete, and no consensus are three of them, and the three expected, but merge is the fourth option. If AFD is being used properly as a last resort of dispute resolution, the merge suggestion should have happened much much sooner in the process (though there are likely times the nominator is genuinely unaware of a proper merge target). We are stating that articles that fail PLOT and only fail PLOT should not be deleted, and thus the whole process of using AFD to end up at a merge point taints the process, because it gives the wrong impression of what should be done to the article. Instead, I argue that if we create a specific AFMerge process akin in every regard to AFD, save that the only three general outcomes are keep, merge, and no consensus, we provide a better route for details with articles that may fail PLOT, because the concept of "delete" never comes into the picture. --MASEM 15:22, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for clarifying. I agree that there is a problem with premature nominations to AfD, and I think that problem needs to be solved in some way, but I'm not convinced that special-case processes for one particular problem is the solution. I think it's more of a band-aid solution, and one that may cause more problems than it solves.
I think it's safe to say that articles that fail PLOT usually fail other policies as well, and I'd guess that it's probably rather rare for an article to fail PLOT, have little hope of ever meeting PLOT, and yet only fail PLOT. If sufficient secondary sources are available to (potentially) meet WP:V and WP:NOR, then it is overwhelmingly likely that out-of-universe material can be written. Similarly, if the available sources can only support in-universe material, then it is probable that the article will also fail WP:V, etc.
But, for the sake of argument, some thoughts about such an article. First, I think such a situation is probably quite rare (in the vast majority of cases, it's likely that other policies and guidelines will also apply), and I wonder whether it's worth creating a special process for a rare event. Second, I'm having such difficulty in imagining such an article that I can't honestly say that the article should not be deleted. I think it should certainly be considered as a possible option, and I suspect that it would be a mistake to make such an outcome impossible. Jakew (talk) 15:57, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
If something fails PLOT, it's likely failing NOTE/FICT, easily. (Hypothetical question: can something fail PLOT and still meet NOTE/FICT? ) Alternately, by making the topic meet PLOT, you are generally then satisfying it for NOTE/FICT as well, and to that extent, also WP:V; any other failures of the article at that point are likely due to writing style and making sure to watch for problems in NOR and NPOV. A big complaint of naysayers of PLOT (such as Pixelface) is that there is a strong tie between it and notability, yet notability is not policy. Can we separate these better? I don't know, I'm just throwing it out. But the key here is that most of the time, PLOT and NOTE are tied together presently; once you make it to pass one, you've likely passed the other and there are rarely other policies that cannot be fixed with standard cleanup, removing the need to AFD.
As for the AFMerge idea, it has wider applications beyond PLOT-type articles. Mind you, I'm pretty sure the idea is not new. We basically need to have it clear, somehow, that citing PLOT, ultimately failing NOTE as a reason for deletion is not good. Deletion, strictly, means that we should not cover any aspect of that topic at all. Rarely this is the case that we want to delete the coverage of a plot-based item, instead opting to reduce the amount it is covered and placing it in better context if the element itself cannot pass PLOT -- effectively merging content. AFDs should not be used as they are now with plot-based articles to try to end up with a merge decision, because you are presenting the option of "deletion". As suggested, PLOT-failing articles likely never should go to
We still need some form of wide-participation dispute resolution for PLOT-type articles. The current merge process unfortunately does not attract a lot of attention as AFDs do; unless you advertise it to an interested project page, you only have the person interested in the merge and the editors of the page. At that point gaining consensus can be rather difficult because you're dealing at the local level. Say you're the one suggesting a merge and you know that the merge is appropriate by policy but you cannot get those editors to move. Even if you get a larger opinion at a project, this type of situation can be very difficult to bulge, and likely will end up in an edit war if neither side relents. Presently, the next step is to take it to AFD, but as I've noted, this is the wrong attitude. This is exactly where the AFMerge idea would be better; you can now go from local consensus to global consensus in a manner that suggests that you don't want to remove that material, just help better with its encyclopedic presentation. --MASEM 18:16, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
Interesting comments. It's true that WP:PLOT and WP:NOTE are closely related, but so too is WP:V. As I (and others) have stated previously, WP:V in particular implies WP:N, and in most cases any argument based upon WP:N can be rephrased as an argument based upon WP:V and WP:NOR (if there are sufficient reliable sources to write a verifiable article, the subject probably meets WP:N). In a sense, then, the underlying principles of notability are already policy. I'm not sure if it's possible to separate the policies and guidelines, which are after all intended to be understood as a whole. So yes, WP:PLOT and WP:NOTE are closely linked, but if we were to remove WP:PLOT from the equation, there would still be a policy basis for WP:NOTE, and in most cases one could still make notability-type arguments on the sole basis of policies (as opposed to guidelines).
Hypothetically, I suppose, one could propose that we amend WP:V and WP:NOR as well, but this raises the question of why one would want to. "PLOT shouldn't be a part of NOT because NOT is a reason for deletion and so article X might be deleted" is not, by itself, a compelling argument. Nor is "the requirement for secondary sources shouldn't be a part of WP:PSTS because WP:NOR is policy and so article X might be deleted". Neither of these arguments are remotely compelling unless one starts from the assumption that article X shouldn't be deleted. Similarly, "WP:NPOV needs to be rewritten so that I can rewrite the King George article to explain my theory that he was actually a sentient carrot" isn't very compelling unless one starts from the assumption that such an assertion ought to be made. So the question, to my mind, is this: what is so important about article X (or the class of articles like X) that means that they should be kept? And is there sufficient support for that view that we should rewrite PLOT, V, NOR, etc. in order to accomodate it?
Regarding the AFMerge idea, I think it's rather interesting, but I wouldn't like to see it as the only option for PLOT-type problems, because I think that deletion is often (though far from always) the correct approach with these articles. Nevertheless, when merging is appropriate it would be very good, as you say, to have an effective mechanism for getting more eyes and more input from the wider community. A couple of ideas spring to mind, in addition to AFMerge. The first is that perhaps WP:PM could be enhanced or restructured in some way so as to get more attention? The second is that perhaps we could have a NOT/Noticeboard, similar to WP:NOR/N and WP:RS/N? I'm not sure whether either of these are any good, but I thought they were worth mentioning. Jakew (talk) 21:27, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
I think it's somewhat inaccurate to bluntly state that "we should preserve information". It depends on the information, and whether it is appropriate encyclopaedic content. If inappropriate content was added, there's no particular reason to keep it, and keeping information just because someone added it is counter to the goal of creating a quality encyclopaedia. WP:EP actually states: "For text that is beyond hope we will remove the offending section to the corresponding talk page, or, in cases in which the article obviously has no redeeming merit whatsoever, delete it outright. The decision to take the latter action should not be made lightly, however." Whether or not pure plot summaries fall into the exceptions listed in WP:EP#Preserve information (I would argue that they tend to be duplicative and OR), I think it's a mistake to think that WP:DP is automatically invalid because of perceived inconsistencies with WP:EP. Jakew (talk) 13:21, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
Give the two lists of reasons to delete at WP:EP and WP:DP, I think it is inaccurate to describe an assertion of inconsistency as perceived. I'd also point out I am not contending DP is invalid, only that the inconsistency exists. I'd be curious how you square the two lists; for example notability makes no appearance in WP:EP. It's almost like the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. I'd be curious as to how we decide which hand has primacy. As to your argument regarding plot summaries being OR, that's not supported by policy. Oh, and it isn't inaccurate to describe our mission as being one of preserving information. Unless you believe Misplaced Pages will only be complete when all information has been removed. Hiding T 13:38, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
I guess I don't see a major inconsistency because I view WP:EP#Preserve information as a non-exclusive list (ie., it includes, but is not limited to...) I suppose that if I viewed it otherwise then I would probably agree with you. Additionally, I view "preserve information" as applying primarily to within-article editing, not to the deletion process. Intuitively, it makes much more sense to me to view DP as definitive when it comes to valid reasons for article deletion.
Notability is a combination of two issues: i) whether it is possible to meet the requirements of WP:V and WP:NOR (ie., are there enough sources out there to support a theoretical fully-sourced article), and ii) relevance to an encyclopaedia (note that "irrelevancy" is an exception to "preserve information" and that WP:RELEVANCE discusses WP:N and WP:NOT). Hence, in my analysis, WP:N is largely an explanation of existing policy for convenience, while notability is not explicitly listed in EP, it is implied.
Finally, on a philosophical note, the purpose of the project is to create an encyclopaedia. Creating and preserving encyclopaedic information is essential to that goal, but so too is removing unencyclopaedic information (the difficulty, I admit, is agreeing how to distinguish between the two). Jakew (talk) 13:58, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
Intuitively I would expect WP:DP to explain how we delete. What we delete I would expect to be at WP:NOT, intuitively, but that's Pixelface's main bone of contention and is where we cam in. This whole argument is based on subjective intuitions, and we can go around in these circles all day, it doesn't really help. The broad point is that we have no clear definition of what an encyclopedia is. An 18th century encyclopedia of butterflies would look different to a 20th century one. Is one more encyclopedic than another? At least we agree this is a subjective decision. Hiding T 14:09, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
But is is a perfectly good reason for deletion if there doesn't exist enough third party verifiable information in reliable sources to make a balanced article that is not mostly plot summary. So the question shouldn't be what does the article have now, but how much out of universe verifiable information exists. If enough out of universe information doesn't exist in reliable sources to make the article mostly out of universe and only a little plot summary, then yes it should be deleted. That's just a basic synthesis of WP:V, WP:NOT, and the other content policies. - Taxman 12:58, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
Is it? That seems to be enacting WP:N as policy, not guidance? I'd agree it is a good reason to argue for deletion, but not a reason which should trump other opinions. It seems to be attempting to violate WP:NPOV. For example, if all that has been written on a subject in reliable sources is glowing, we don't refuse to summarise it because there is no criticism to counter balance. If all there is to say about a work is that it exists, and to describe it and classify it, where is the harm in that? How are we breaching our observance of a neutral point of view? Surely having inclusion standards in some sense violates the ability to maintain a neutral point of view, a fundamental principle? Jimmy made this point himself once, saying we wouldn't discuss Flat Earthers or some such in Earth, but we could discuss such theories in their own article. Look, cards on the table, the argument really seems to boil down to What improves the encyclopedia best, deleting or retaining verifiable material? Let's not make the flawed assumption that our policies mean anything, they're just words we wrote and rewrite as we go, it's all made up. What's the goal. That's the heart of the debate, how expansive are we. Are we deletionist or inclusionist. Can we find a middle ground which doesn't consist of robotic automaton, enslaved to subjective notions. Hiding T 13:11, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
If it is only verifiable to itself then it is not verifiable, that's basic application of WP:V. That's what what I said above boils down to. And yes, I would argue that irrespective of what we have written for our policies WP:V is at the core of what makes a good encyclopedia and what makes an encyclopedia worth using. In any case it is policy, and bedrock at that. That's why I've always argued we don't even need WP:N because WP:V already covers what we need. If people simply discussed whether subjects had enough third party verifiable sources to make balanced articles we'd never need to argue about notability again. - Taxman 14:54, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
Well, I think I'm the man who suggested the third party sources addition to WP:V, so I can remember when that wasn't a policy, but then I remember when WP:V wasn't policy, and we were still an encyclopedia. I'm not sure it is bedrock; WP:NPOV certainly is, but WP:V? It's hard for me to take as bedrock something I proposed, since it's just something I made up one day. The trouble with bedrock is how we interpret it and what it all means. WP:PAPER is bedrock. Deeper bedrock. There's a division deep within Misplaced Pages that we have never truly solved. Because all that policy, all that bedrock really is, is just words we made up. And they mean whatever we want them to mean. Some people argue that including plot summaries makes us the good encyclopedia we are. The whole point about us is we're here to build an encyclopedia. Nobody ever thought to work out what sort of encyclopedia, because we were never meant to be the enyclopedia. Something else was. The good content was going to get published somewhere else. We lost sight of that, or dropped that idea, but we never replaced it with anything else. Misplaced Pages itself didn't start out as the encyclopedia. It's the place where we write the encyclopedia. It's also become the encyclopedia, but it is still also the sandbox. We can keep whatever we want in the sandbox, but not whatever we want in the encyclopedia. The place is split into factions on so many points it's hard to decide what we are. There really are no objective statements here, WP:IAR makes that clear if nothing else. We do whatever is best to build a NPOV encyclopedia. We're here to "to present a fair, neutral description of the facts". Incidentally, I think the third party sources grew from the original formulation of WPNPOV; Perhaps the easiest way to make your writing more encyclopedic is to write about what people believe, rather than what is so. If you can't source what people believe, you can't write about it. Hiding T 16:14, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
No offense, but you didn't exactly just make it up one day. It's basic scholarly attribution. And the it's just words we made up one day can be just a really convenient way to ignore policies that have extremely wide community consensus on what we want this project to be. I realize some people want to make this a fan site, but luckily WP:V is here to stay. - Taxman 17:20, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
Why would it cause offence? Obviously I took it from somewhere. The point is, until it was added it wasn't policy, and there is quite a large amount of policy and flotsam and the like which somewhat contradicts it. Ignoring the fact that we made all this up entrenches the point of view that none of this can be changed and that we could make this a fan-site if consensus wants. I don't endorse the idea that we should be, I merely wish to point out that these arguments are circular. We need better reasons than "because". If we forget why we have these things, from my point of view we don't deserve them, because we can't defend them. Is there a reason we can't be both a fan-site and an encyclopedia? Hiding T 17:30, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
Yes, and it's fairly easy to establish from the verifiability policy. And since there are long established and well thought out reasons for the verifiability policy, your arguments are kind of pedantic. We just don't need to rehash the reasons every time. The only conflict is in trying to make Misplaced Pages into something it doesn't need to be. There are lots of fan sites out there, it's just that this isn't one. - Taxman 17:56, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
That's what I love about this place. You try and engage with people so that the issues can be seen to be discussed and you get called a pedant. This place was made up as it went along. It means only what we want it to mean. You don't need to tell this stuff to me. You need to find a better way of telling it to the editors out there with different opinions, editing in a different way, because by WP:CONSENSUS they have an equal right to have voice and be heard. Apologies for wasting everyone's time. Hiding T 20:04, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
I didn't call you anything. I referred to your arguments. It's an important difference and was done specifically not to refer to you as a person. What your argument did was to set aside strong consensus to repeat that it can change. Of course it can change, but that also doesn't change that it is there and has valuable reasons behind it. - Taxman 02:27, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
An interesting question seems to be at the heart of this turn of discussion. At what point do we determine that consensus has changed, and "how much" of a consensus is needed to determine this? And if you think this is an arbitrary thought, check out the current "controversy" concerning the deciding of consensus at Misplaced Pages talk:Autoconfirmed Proposal/Poll#Closed. And this is from what would ordinarily seem to be a fairly straight-forward poll. So how many would we need to join the discussion to "invalidate" WP:V? When I consider the mess that was made during the WP:ATT discussions, I'm not sure that any discussion can ever be strong enough to "overturn" an existing policy. And here's the "fun" part: My understanding is that "policy" isn't necessarily what's on some policy page, but rather current practice, or something "endorsed" as "good practice" by the community. So what do you think? Can the community overturn policies? Is it theoritically possible? Is it concretely possible? Or will they get blocked/censured for contravention of those self-same policies? - jc37 03:46, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
yes, this is a policy page, and the appropriate thing to discuss here is what we want the policy to be. Obviously, we can decide on the policy we want--we are not bound by what might have existed on the page before. I think Hiding is right, that material of even very great detail can be verifiable, even a good fan site can have a very large part of its contents accurate and verifiable, even to the extent that it might become a RS in its own right. The question of exactly what counts as verifiable is a guideline from RS, and can be discussed there. The policy question of whether we should go into great detail is a matter of consensus. At present, its clear that consensus is somewhat divided, and I dont think there's really a firm supermajority either way. Therefore, the appropriate thing to do on a policy page is to admit the fact, and leave the question open. DGG (talk) 01:26, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

PLOT and NOTE overlap?

I had this thought based on the above discussion between me and Jakew on the AFMerge idea. Basically, this is a question to make sure we know how much, if any, there is overlap of PLOT and NOTE, and if there's a way to possibly separate these to a degree.

Lets consider an article on a fictional character (though this reasonable applies to any such fictional element or work). For purposes of discussion, the article is only about that one character, so it is important to note that the topic is the fictional character.

Now there are two p/gs that apply to this (warning, descending into some modern math concepts...):

  1. PLOT: The topic needs to include other information in addition to a plot summary, otherwise should not be an article. Let us call this other information as Set A.
  2. NOTE/FICT: The topic must show some information to be worthy of coverage as a single topic (otherwise we're going to merge it). Some information is Set B.

I'm starting from the assertion that these are two different statements. One states that being encyclopedic we simply don't allow topics to be only covered by plot summaries, the other states that we only include information if there's more than just primary and trivial information about it.

Now, I propose trying to consider the following cases (I will assume that there are things that work in Set A that also work in Set B, so that the intersection of the two sets is not the null set).

  1. Set A is exactly equal to Set B - If this is absolutely true, then we need to admit that PLOT and NOTE are the same, or more specifically that for purposes of published works, NOTE/FICT is policy, or that we weaken PLOT to a guideline. Neither of these seems like a good result from this.
  2. Set A is a subset of B - There may be aspects of notability demonstration that do not make an article more than just a plot summary. One could call Cliff Notes of works of fiction secondary sources at times as they do analysis the plot, so we can surpass NOTE, but as this is just more plot summary, albeit in a different writer's opinion. (This is just an example and can be shown to be different) This may be better because the policy statement is more restrictive with the guideline being more open.
  3. Set B is a subset of A - There may be information more that just the plot summary that can pass PLOT, but this information is not sufficient to pass NOTE. Here, I'd use the examples of director commentaries, which have the unfortunate problem of being primary sources yet more than just plot information (but again, my example to be proven in a different manner).
  4. "Some Set A are not B, Some Set B are not A" - This, personally, is where I think the correct overlap lies: there's elements that make things more than just plot summary that don't make it notable, there's notability demonstration that doesn't help to be more than just plot summary. However, I am opening this for further consideration.

What does this all mean? Depending on how other sees this, this tells us what we should be able aiming for in PLOT; do we specifically mention notability or should we try to prune it out? If of the above cases, case 1 and case 3 beg that topics on published works must mention notability, while neither case 2 or 4 require that it be mentioned, or if is, mentioned in a different clause as being a significantly different concept as plot-only articles. --MASEM 13:13, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Fascinating analysis, Masem. I would mostly agree with you, I think: point 4 is the correct overlap. I would put it like this: PLOT tells us about the kind of information that should be included, whereas NOTE tells us (broadly speaking) about the amount of external coverage. To a certain extent, PLOT implies NOTE, but because this is true of other policies (esp. V), I don't think we need to view this as a "problem".
From the narrow perspective of deletion discussions, I would characterise the relationship as follows: applying V and PLOT together, we expect the eventual state of the article to be such that a fully-sourced article can be written with detailed coverage of out-of-universe information, in addition to in-universe aspects. This leads us naturally to NOTE, but they add some clarification - when we evaluate coverage in potential sources, we need to evaluate whether those sources will enable us to meet PLOT.
From the wider perspective of content creation, PLOT is important in that it gives a brief overview of the kind of coverage we want in WP, and what should be avoided. Just as with other WP policies, PLOT gives people information about how to write good articles. We need to bear this in mind. I'm concerned that we shouldn't get lost in the "deletion" perspective and forget about the article-building value of this policy. Jakew (talk) 14:08, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
It's hard to tell NOTE and NOT apart anymore, there are 14 mentions of notability on this policy page. A bunch of them explicitly making it policy. According to NOT, NOTE is policy with regard to original inventions, memorials, sales catalogs, travel guides, scheduled and future events, future history, plot summaries, and news reports. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 16:20, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
Which begs the question, should NOTE and NOT be as tied as they are? Mind you, I'm looking at PLOT specifically, but there may be cases, particularly for future events, news reports, memorials, and original inventions, where one must show something is notable to be included. Other cases, like catalogs and travel guides, and arguably plot summaries are more on content, and thus notability is a separate (but valid) issue.
I also still want to state that we can call that for certain aspects (say, news events) where notability is required per NOT (not NOTE), but what defines notable left best to the guideline.
These are really subtle issues (content verse coverage), but given the various discussions, its clear that a lot of the confusion and arguments over PLOT and related aspects are related to how we word this language. --MASEM 19:55, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
Yes, exactly the problem. Its a little absurd to have what is in effect our policy on notability expressed indirectly in the negative terms of this policy page. It's more conducive to confusion than to the clarification of how to write for Misplaced Pages. I think two steps need to be taken. First, this page needs to be divided between the "community" policy and the content policy. the behavioral policy is appropriate for NOT. The content policy needs to be restated in a positive page, which would amount to the principles of notability. Problem is, I do not think there is any real agreement on that part--another reason to separate out the community policy,which is something I think there is true consensus on. Lets narrow down the areas of disagreement so we can work on them. DGG (talk) 03:18, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
It already has sections for conent and community, and I don't think rolling the content ones into NOTE or something similar is going to fly anytime soon, or it's already there. I do think we should leave notability to NOTE, since I think it was proposed to be a policy and there wasn't a consensus for that. I don't know, it's pretty convoluted. NOT keeps saying WP is not X, except when X is notable. If NOTE was removed from this, about half of it would be see NOTE, plus some stuff like DIRECTORY, DICTIONARY, GUIDEBOOK and some others that pass NOTE not but not NOT, - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 05:41, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Opinion versus Fact

An interesting problem has become apparent as I have looked over the various articles, and I hope you will allow me to present this issue to you all for your consideration.

As I understand it, an encyclopedia is a document that presents information on many subjects. It cannot be simply for the presentation of facts. Therefore, by that definition, it must be allowed to include opinions as well as facts.

While you may or may not agree with this statement, I am confident that it can be seen as self-evident by virtue of the fact that many individuals, as well as peoples, are written about in such documents, and their comments are listed as quotations and/or as general beliefs. As such these have historically required no proof. They are simply included as statements about such individuals or groups, whether true or not, factual or not, and generally accepted or not, because they exist.

I believe that it is disturbing and off-putting when some "editors" think it is their responsibility to change someones' contributions simply because they don't agree with it. That just seems wrong, and is obviously unfair.

One of the basic pillars of the project should be that, particularly if anyone can contribute, that all positions must be included in a subject for it to be considered as exhaustive. Therefore, the rule should be that anyone can contribute by adding in another opinion or viewpoint without fear of deletion. After all, isn't that the purpose of an encyclopedic work?

An extreme example of this would be when dealing with a distasteful topic, such as white supremacy. Is it not true that those who adhere to that philosophy actually exist, hate other races, see them as lesser in species rating and use derogatory statements against them? Would it not be correct to state the philosophy as they see it, rather than as the rest of us see it? Without doing so, the documentation of the subject is incomplete and inherently misleading.

If Misplaced Pages is to become accurate and exhaustive, then it must become inclusive to all ideas as long as each different opinion is kept to separate paragraphs and/or sections. Without this methodology, Misplaced Pages will continue to be untrusted and viewed as specious.

Thank you very much for you kind consideration.

KitchM (talk) 23:16, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

I think the page you want to look for is Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view which describes the need to present articles in a balanced and proportional manner. Note: The page explicitly does not say that all points of view must be presented equally. Fringe points of view get coverage proportionate to their acceptance. Nor does the page say that those holding a particular philosophy must be portrayed in the the same way that they would describe themselves. Our mission is to strive for objective balance to the maximum degree humanly feasible.
However, there is also a potential misunderstanding in your comment. The opinions of Wikipedians do not matter at all and have no place in the body of the encyclopedia. Encyclopedias are, by definition, tertiary sources - we synopsize the writings of others. A well-sourced and relevant opinion by a noteworthy or historical figure may be appropriate for inclusion in the encyclopedia. But we present it as the demonstrated fact that so-and-so said thus, not as an opinion. An opinion entered by an editor in his/her own name has no place here.
Hope that helps. Rossami (talk) 02:00, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
If something does not have to be presented “equally”, then one may question the idea of balance and proportion. Of course, there are two meanings to “equally” as it may apply here. One is that it gets equal time or amount of coverage. That would raise the question of who it is that makes such determinations.
Another meaning is that a subject gets mentioned at all when other similar subjects are mentioned. Let us assume that you meant the latter.
By using that meaning, one would be saying that they are going to make a judgment call on what they think most people believe, or what they personally believe is the value of the subject.
Without a poll, the first cannot be decided with any degree of legitimacy. Without the recognition by some “authority” the second has no relevance. So, who's to say? You? Me?
Your second point seems to indicate a particular bias that is built in to the process. Fairness would dictate that Misplaced Pages make that a clearly stated position on the home page. There is, for instance, a huge difference between a liberal, a conservative or a non-biased point of view. One would hope that Misplaced Pages takes the last one, but your implication is clearly otherwise. I hope that is not the position of the majority.
It should be pointed out that I am sorry if I have led you to misread my comments. It was never implied that Wikipedians (and I am not sure who they are, so please be patient of this newbie who is still learning the private lingo.) would be the ones giving opinions. More correctly, the editors of an encyclopedia simply include the opinions of those about whom they are writing. That must obviously be the source of any opinions stated.
And since a majority of what is included in the Misplaced Pages have no source stated, there is little that anyone can claim with any degree of wide acceptance as proving that opinions which are included only come from some “noteworthy or historical figure” (whoever that is, and the definition of such being judged by whom?)
Hence, we are back to my original points. - KitchM (talk) 04:55, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
Here's how it actually works. We have a principle called the "neutral point of view." If this principle represents a genuine consensus of the Wikipedian community, then it is possible to build an encyclopedia. What happens is that articles on controversial topics will contain reasonably fair, well-referenced descriptions of the important mainstream points of view, tied to reliable sources.
Reasonable editors who hold one of the points of view in the article will concern themselves mostly with the question of whether their own point of view is fairly presented, and whether the article leads a curious reader to more information about that point of view. They will not fuss too much about the presence of other points of view in the article, because they are not concerned about suppressing other points of view, only about making sure their own is fairly represented. They will not try to measure proportionate balance with precision because that doesn't matter; all that matters is whether their own view is adequately presented.
Thus, if there is an article on "the shape of the world," and if I believe the world is round, I'll accept an article that includes the flat-earth theory as long as the article fairly presents the round-earth theory, and also mentions that it is the mainstream theory among astronomers and geologists (back this up with a suitable reference, of course).
If the article's balance is reasonable, I won't fuss about it. Only if the article's balance is so grotesquely unreasonable that it fails to include the round-earth theory at all, or includes it only to mock it, or fails to mention that it is the mainstream theory, will I fuss about it.
If the general community of editors pretty much all feel this way, then articles can be reasonably stable--include roughly the same content next week as they do this week--and are likely to be perceived as reasonable by the outside community. Progress is possible, and an encyclopedia is possible.
On the whole, points of view that are held by substantial minorities will tend to get more than proportional exposure under such a system, because the amount of space it takes to adequately describe a point of view depends on logic and the English language, not on the number of people holding that opinion.
Conflicts arise when people try to use Misplaced Pages as a promotional vehicle for points of view that are held only by tiny numbers of people. In this case, the measuring stick is whether that point of view has had enough written about it in reliable sources that can be referenced.
If the general community of editors does not accept the principle of the neutral point of view, then progress is impossible, and you will have articles that never settle down but are simply unending edit wars that oscillate between one extreme and other. Dpbsmith (talk) 21:32, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Shouldn't some things here be more relaxed?

I often hear users say that anything that cannot be found in a paper encyclopedia shouldn't be here but doesnt any user think that the whole point of an encyclopedia which anyone can edit should be that you have more freedom in what it contains than a paper encyclopedia? Otherwise we just end up recreating a less reliable version of a paper encyclopedia. Tbo (talk) 14:18, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

No! We are trying to create the bigger, better, more global and less Anglocentric version of what a combination of all the paper encyclopedias would be if they could. Too much "relaxed" attitude encourages the crap festival that has padded our article count with endless unnoticed hoaxes, garage bands, vanity spam, gamers' trivia guides, recentist media piffle, etc. --Orange Mike | Talk 16:05, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
If that is what we are trying to create, then why is there so much scepticism about the reliability of Misplaced Pages as a source with many education institutes in the UK banning it as a source of research. Thanks. Tbo (talk) 17:47, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
Because we're a compendium, and the students should be going to the places toward which a properly-cited article will point them. (The same is true of a paper encyclopedia; my department wouldn't let me use the Encyclopedia Britannica as a source for a footnote in most scholarly contexts.) --Orange Mike | Talk 18:02, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
How reliable do you think Misplaced Pages is and to what extent can it be used as a source? Alot of people do claim it is less relaible than a paper encyclopedia as it can be edited by anyone. What are we trying to achieve? Tbo (talk) 21:01, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Wait, and here I thought[REDACTED] was not paper. :-P --Kim Bruning (talk) 17:49, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Sure, with 5,000,000 editors, most of them untrained, there are some not-so-high-quality articles. However, there are many articles that are better than what you can get from a paper encyclopedia. I've gone looking for sources on articles only to find we already had more content that was better cited than my would be sources. Don't know what education is like these days, but by the time I was in high school mubledy-mumble years ago, we were told to find other sources besides encyclopedias. The encyclopedia should be a quick reference and a starting point. Cheers, and happy article building. Dlohcierekim 04:49, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not a crystal ball

The section states "Individual scheduled or expected future events should only be included if the event is notable and almost certain to take place". However, in the case of the Russian presidential elections in 2008, the winner was almost certain about half a year before the election. I was tempted to change this, but didn't. Does this policy include a need to be politically correct, despite filling the criteria of being "almost certain"? :)

I'm mainly pointing this out, as the above policy would technically allow for such edits. HJV (talk) 02:23, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes. We cannot say that that person "won" the election, though it would be completely appropriate to include relevant news articles that claimed the victory "would be" virtually guaranteed, as long as it was approached in a neutral manner; the analysis that claim that type of information occurred in the past and thus not a future event. --MASEM 02:45, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

A radical way of rethinking WP:NOT

Based on thinking about PLOT and how other sections of NOT work, I've come to realize that as NOT is worded, it is trying to say a heck of a lot that apply to three very different types of concepts: what content is not to be included at all (inclusion guidelines), what approach to writing about content is not to be used (style guidelines), and what types of behavior are not acceptable (behavioral guidelines). There are some that overlap but for the most part each specific point (like PLOT) can be classified into one of these. Now, I know its great that we nave this page we can point new editors to, saying "ok, this is what WP is not" and its nice and concise in that fashion, but because all of these are combined, in the current inclusionists/deletionsists atmosphere, remedies that work for class of the above are being pushed for other classes where that type of remedy is inappropriate. In other words, there are some that see any failure of NOT to be a reason for deletion, for example. (Failing PLOT, the most common example, is not necessary a reason for deletion, but instead should be improved or cleaned up) The problem is that the specific instances of the above are all mixed up in NOT that it makes it hard to see the difference between them.

I'm not sure exactly what the right way to fix this is, if it can be fixed or not, nor expecting this to be turned around quickly, but I'm trying to put this out there to see how others feel. My first thought is to reorder this page to have a major section on each of the above, then describe the proper remedies to resolve those before introducing them all. For content not to be included, that would be along the path of deletion, while content in poor style should go in the path of editing improvements, for example.

But this also leads to the fact that for the first class, improper content, we really do lack an inclusion guideline. We have what is not appropriate but here in NOT, and we have one case of what is, as per WP:NOTE, but that leaves a large hole between the two without any guidance. Thus, to some extent, another possible way to deal with this is that we create three separate policy pages based off NOT, one becoming the inclusion policy page (with what is and is not appropriate, relying but not citing NOTE for guidance), one being a page for improper editing behavior, and the rest (the style problems) probably left here. However, that means we do have to separate these elements and that may be a more difficult barrier to get over.

Again, I'm not sure yet what the answer could be here. I'm just trying to brainstorm if there is a way to improve NOT to make it easier to appreciate and understand how content that fails NOT will be dealt with, that possibly be variable depending on the type of content. --MASEM 14:19, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

WP:NOT#PLOT should really only concerned with content issues and this could be rectified by a simple statement such as

"Misplaced Pages articles on fictional topics should offer real-world context and sourced analysis, not solely a plot summary".

In my view, the current wording is a watered down version of the policy wording compared with last year's version, and now includes the wishy-washy statement that "A concise plot summary is appropriate as part of the larger coverage of a fictional work". Since this statement neither proscribes or prohibits content per se, it seems to say that plot is a style issues, and should be dropped in my view. This would be the most straight-foward way to clarify the wording. --Gavin Collins (talk) 15:41, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Two points:
  1. That clause was added because people were interpreting the old wording as meaning that no plot summaries should exist.
  2. Masem's not talking about WP:PLOT, Masem's talking about all of WP:NOT.
Hope that helps. SamBC(talk) 17:26, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Sambc said what I basically what I was going to say: I just want to think about all of NOT (PLOT is called out specifically, but every clause should be considered). I don't dispute anything stated here as policy, but I think there's a better way to organize it that may make this easier to understand. --MASEM 19:28, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
I think Masem may be on to something here, but I'm very uncertain as to how it should actually be done. What seems to be the ultimate and (somewhat) obvious conclusion of this would mean at least slight restructuring of most WP policy/guidelines. Note that I say restructuring, not actually changing. I don't see any need (as part of this) to change what any policy says. However, the idea of having a "root" policy page for content, behaviour, and inclusion makes sense, that each call to other policy and guideline pages while stating the "first principles" that the policy and guidance is based on. To some extent these things already exist, but consolidation and rationalisation will make them easier to understand. It will also help to distinguish between content policy and inclusion policy (inclusion is at the level from article to topic, content is mostly below the level of article). How to go about it, well, that's a harder question. SamBC(talk) 10:04, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
I don't think you can get much clearer or more concise a guideline than WP:NOT. Why fix it, if it ain't broke? --Gavin Collins (talk) 08:36, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

I have for some time wanted to do this, but the first step is divide the behavioral and the content guidelines--there is much more agreement on the behavioral ones,and I dont think we'd want to weaken them. They are fundamentally different: the behavioral ones talk about the project, the content ones about the encyclopedia. Ideally the second step would be to find something we can agree one, but we may be stuck with gnomic utterances. for example:

as for the fiction, perhaps we're getting close-- how about : "Misplaced Pages coverage on fictional topics should include real-world context and sourced analysis, as well as plot summary". The key point of disagreement is "articles" vs "coverage" -- what goes in particular individual articles is indeed a style guideline. What goes or doesnt in Misplaced Pages as a whole is a matter of policy.

But I'd go a good deal further--the content guidelines should be worded as positives, and the page called Content Policy. DGG (talk) 00:15, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Elaborations on "Misplaced Pages is not a traditional encyclopedia"

user:Yvwv recently added what I thought were some fairly non-controversial additions to this page. They were promptly reverted with the comment "Discuss major policy changes on the talk page first." While I think the section on "not quality-assured" needed a rewrite to describe the controls that we do have instead of the traditional academic controls, I thought it was a reasonable draft and appropriate to boldly make. It did not seem to me like the kind of major change that needed weeks of discussion first. What am I missing here? Rossami (talk) 16:32, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

The only change I saw being "bad" relatively was that the first top level heading was changed from "Style and Format" (which aligned with "Content" and "Community" headings) to "Misplaced Pages is not a traditional encyclopedia". These top levels should stay consistent, but the rest of the changes seemed positive and non-confrontational. --MASEM 17:09, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Well, Misplaced Pages is not a lot of things. It is not a brick, for instance. But we don't have that in the policy here. The issue is, why are each of these new additions needed at the policy level? Policies are supposed to be followed by all editors at all times. Keeping this in mind, let's look at the new additions one by one.
  • The "Not quality assured" section. Saying that the information on Misplaced Pages is unreliable seems contrary to WP:V. There already is a general content disclaimer. Furthermore, what is the purpose of having an encyclopedia at all if it is unreliable by design?
  • I also question the need to say that "Misplaced Pages is not proprietary." I have less of a problem with this, but I wonder what the need is in this policy. We already have the Misplaced Pages:Copyright policy for this, and it is much more detailed. Is there anything to be gained by having it reiterated here?
  • Finally, the section on writing for a global audience, while a good idea, is a far cry from being a policy-level matter. Perhaps an editorial guideline is a better place of this kind of thing. siℓℓy rabbit (talk) 02:05, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Proposing WP:FICT for global acceptance

Following the long discussions about the rewording and/or removal of NOT#PLOT here last month, the editors of the currently disputed/proposed guideline WP:FICT (which combines WP:NOTABILITY and WP:NOT#PLOT) believe it is ready for global acceptance and ask for input at WT:FICT#RfC: Proposing WP:FICT for global acceptance. – sgeureka 18:54, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

not a good idea at this time--the very basics parts of it are being revisited by several people. Turns out a good deal isnt at all clear. I hope the time will come, but the lack of activity last month was merely from exhaustion. DGG (talk) 03:24, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
I would almost say that it's forcing a rechallenging of what NOTE means (demonstrated by the recent RFC added there), in that are secondary sourcing absolute or are there others. I will easily admit that if the latter is true, FICT can be written to fix that point, but that's a critical aspect of both discussions. (PLOT is also being challenged as well). --MASEM 03:31, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Not a soapbox

Do we need to add a section about not being a soapbox to warn against the worlds ills? I'm thinking of the people who create WP:BLP violations about not notable individuals as a sort of public service announcement. You name a heinous crime/offense and someone will come up with someone who has committed it, and come here to tell the world. Cheers, Dlohcierekim 04:43, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

PLOT is disputed

Please stop removing the {{disputedtag}} from above WP:NOT#PLOT. I added a {{disputedtag}} above WP:NOT#PLOT and it's been reverted by Gavin.collins and Seraphim Whipp. I don't know if those editors have been following this talk page since March 2008, but that section of WP:NOT *is* disputed, by me, DHowell, and many others, and that section is currently under discussion, as you can see from the small text in WP:NOT#PLOT itself, as well as in {{fiction notice}}, which is transcluded on Misplaced Pages talk:Plot summaries. WP:Plot summaries was created and linked from {{cent}} because PLOT is disputed. So please stop removing the {{disputedtag}} and actually look at the talk page archives, specifically these threads in Archive 17, 18, and 19 — as well as these threads on the current talk page . Gavin.collins and Seraphim Whipp may may also be interested in reading the comments above in the Moved the bit about plot summaries to Misplaced Pages is not a manual, guidebook, or textbook thread by DGG and Ned Scott, about how to mark a section of a policy page as disputed. Thank you. --Pixelface (talk) 22:12, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

  • You are being disputatious. The extent of disagreement (and you know this perfectly well) is simply insufficient to challenge the longstanding consensus that attains to this injunction, as your repeated efforts at excision have, ironically, proven all too well. Eusebeus (talk) 22:18, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
    • As eloquent as ever, Eusebeus has covered everything I would want to put in a reply. Seraphim♥Whipp 22:25, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
    • Adding a disputed tag to the section is "disputatious"? I suppose. The section *is* disputed after all. Although I suppose it's not as disputatious as editwarring on Scrubs episode articles. And what "injunction" are you talking about? PLOT is disputed, and it's been disputed for a while now. You think the level of discussion concerning PLOT on this talk page is insufficient to put a disputedtag above the section? This policy isn't written on stone tablets and consensus can change. A discussion about putting a disputedtag on the section is already present further up on this page. A bunch of E&C2 workshop editors re-adding PLOT to NOT is not evidence of "longstanding consensus." --Pixelface (talk) 02:12, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
  • There are no "many others". A vocal minority of half a dozen people don't make a section disputed. If you want to change something, please work out an alternative that may enjoy consensus before demanding change. You can read up on the brainstorming sessions from last month for inspiration. Thank you. – sgeureka 06:27, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
    • It does when in practice a majority of good faith contributors create and work on these articles. Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles 16:35, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
    • Sgeureka, does this look like a half a dozen people to you? And when PLOT was first proposed by Hiding, you can see these comments In the past on WT:NOT, you can see these comments And none of those people were involved parties of E&C1 or E&C2. This isn't the first time people have asked whether consensus exists for PLOT. And look at these AFDs where PLOT was ignored Is there anyone that wasn't a party of E&C1 or E&C2 besides Gavin.collins or Seraphim Whipp who thinks PLOT is *not* disputed and under discussion? How am I supposed to write up an alternative that may enjoy consensus, when the people who want to keep PLOT in NOT can't even do that? And why is there a "brainstorming session" going on at WP:Plot summaries and linked from centralized discussions if PLOT is not disputed? Do you see above where Masem says "PLOT is also being challenged as well"? Do you see above where Collectonian asks why put a disputed template on top of WP:NOT "when its only one single item disputed?"? Do you see above where Fram says "Some people dispute the wording of WP:PLOT, so a discussion is going on to find the best wording (with some people arguing for complete removal)"? In Archive 19, Hiding says "Part of the dispute over WP:PLOT is that it is used as a reason to delete." Those editors appear to acknowledge PLOT is disputed, and they don't even want PLOT removed. So will people please stop removing the {{disputedtag}} above PLOT since PLOT is obviously disputed and obviously under discussion? --Pixelface (talk) 00:18, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
    I am well aware of the old discussions. And yes, there was disagreement what NOT#PLOT should express and where. But that doesn't mean that people dispute its essense. I read the first five of your links (my time is limited), and four of them expressed that NOT#PLOT may be be better as part of WAF, a MOS or elsewhere, i.e. they agree with its basics. Now, the way for you would be to make a proposal to move NOT#PLOT to WAF, not slap a disputed-tag on here and force others to spend their time figuring out what you want. If this thread is any indication, you and Grand are already outnumbered 5:2 (and you don't offer any solution), so there is little reason to change the old consensus status quo. – sgeureka 06:27, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
    No, you don't appear to be aware of those discussions, because you thought only a "half a dozen people" think PLOT should be removed from this policy, and I already made a proposal to move PLOT to WAF in the RFC I started. And nobody has said why PLOT does not belong in WAF. So don't say I'm forcing you to spend your time figuring out what I want. Personally, I don't have time to deal with people who show up here and have no clue of the discussion that's been going on for three months. I'm not going to read this whole talk page and Archive 17, 18, and 19 for you. If this thread is any indication, I see E&C1 and E&C2 parties who oppose PLOT's removal saying that PLOT is not disputed, so I don't care if I'm outnumbered in this particular thread. If you're interested in numbers, go read the thread where PLOT was first proposed by Hiding and tell me how many people supported it and how many people thought it wasn't a good idea. PLOT is disputed. If you think PLOT should be policy, tell me why the articles Cosette, Baldrick, and Andrey Nikolayevich Bolkonsky should be deleted right now. Several people on this talk page who want to keep PLOT in this policy acknowledge that PLOT is disputed. If you think PLOT is not disputed, are you saying PLOT is not under discussion? Are you saying {{disputedtag}} does not say "is disputed or under discussion"? I'm now going to re-add the disputed tag and ask that people stop removing it. --Pixelface (talk) 22:13, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
    Using the E&C cases to judge the concensus or lack thereof of a guideline is a bad idea. Most of the participants of those cases were there to complain about TTN's actions, and as part of that, disagreeing with any policy that TTN justified his actions on. This is not to say that there is or isn't dispute on PLOT or the like, but just that you're created a biased picture - it's just like trying to judge if we should get rid of Social Security by asking Democrats, or end the war by asking Republicans. Mind you, those that participate on NOT normally are also probably biased, but that RFC was the way of attracting the issue to the attention of the larger crowd to get an unbiased view, and though the wording may be disputed, the necessity of PLOT in NOT is not, based on that RFC. --MASEM 22:40, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
    Um, most of the people here now who are saying PLOT is *not* disputed are involved parties of E&C1 and E&C2 who support TTN's actions, speaking of biased pictures. Masem, is PLOT disputed or not? That's what this thread is about, the presence of the template {{disputedtag}} above PLOT. Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles wasn't an involved party of E&C1 or E&C2, and they say PLOT is disputed. So Masem, do you think a disputed tag should be placed above PLOT or not? Would you like to retract your statement that "PLOT is also being challenged as well", because it kind of makes it look like you agree that PLOT is disputed and should carry a disputedtag. --Pixelface (talk) 23:07, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
    A policy or guideline is challenged when there at least one voice that is speaking out against it - but one voice does not a consensus make; disputed becomes when there is significant question if the consensus has changed. Your RFC, perfectly reasonably asking the question if the consensus has shifted, and it showed that it has not - the wording may be in question, but the overarching idea that simply providing a plot summary for a topic is insufficient currently still has consensus. I will note I did say the regulars here are biased towards keeping PLOT for obvious reasons, but even with the RFC which drew in more uninvolved editors, that consensus still held. So should we have a disputed tag on it? No, because consensus is still there, but I think adding language as already present that there's discussion on issues of PLOT is perfectly valid, and we can still talk about it here, though again, with the same people involved, we are chasing tails. My suggestion is that you need to take your cause to NOTE. There are people that are mindset on deleting any article without secondary sources, PLOT or no PLOT. I'm trying to figure out a way through that, but I really really urge you to consider pushing there first. PLOT is not what is threatening articles on fiction, it is the adherence to NOTE that some people insist (and for the record, I don't care which way this falls, I want to get something out there that ends this constant battling between parties and leads to a better encyclopedia; my WP has been close to 80% on policy issues in the last several months, and I'd rather get back to articles.) --MASEM 23:38, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
    You think there's just one voice? There's not only a significant question now if consensus has changed, there's also a significant question whether consensus ever existed for PLOT in the first place. How's your RFC on FICT, which is based in part on PLOT, going by the way? The idea that simply providing a plot summary is content not suitable for Misplaced Pages does not "still have consensus." Why should I try to get PLOT removed from NOT at WT:NOTE? NOTE is a just a guideline and WP:NOT is a policy. PLOT's designation as a policy is disputed. PLOT as a reason to delete is disputed. NOTE has nothing to do with PLOT. If people will AFD an article without secondary sources PLOT or no PLOT, why does PLOT have to remain in this policy? For someone who supposedly doesn't "care" about this, you've sure used a lot of KB expressing that. Nobody is forcing you to be here, nobody forced you to revert my edits to WP:NOT, nobody forced you to be at the E&C2 workshop, nobody forced you to waste all your time rewriting FICT — so if you'd rather get back to articles, please do so. If you think nomating the Andrey Nikolayevich Bolkonsky article for deletion for failing PLOT improves Misplaced Pages, please do so. --Pixelface (talk) 00:38, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
    I completely believe PLOT to not be a reason for deletion; as with every other factor in NOT's "Content" section, these are reasons to cleanup and/or merge, and deletion should only result if there is no useful content left after cleanup (which is not the case for PLOT - plot summaries are allowed in a larger context) or the information is duplicative. PLOT works probably closer to the GUIDE section in this aspect, but also is considered IINFO, but either way, a failure of PLOT alone is not sufficient for deletion. If editors are bringing articles to AFD that only fail PLOT and somehow are fine with NOTE, we should be working to inform these editors that they should be asking for cleanup and not AFD, because if a plot-summary only article has been shown to be notable, 99.9% of the time, more info outside the plot summary can be added from the demonstration of notability. It is just that most commonly, if an article fails PLOT, it is also failing NOTE, which itself is a reason for deletion, but should only be the case if demonstration of notability has been requested but not shown. --MASEM 15:17, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
    We've already discussed this Masem. I know you don't like me repeating myself, so I'll point you to where you and I have already discussed this. Or you can skip to the 5th paragraph if you like.
  • As for whether things in NOT are a reason for deletion, go to Archive 18. Search for "01:24, 8 May 2008 (UTC)", where you falsely claimed that the deletion policy does not link to NOT in WP:DEL#REASON (it does). The Reasons for deletion section in the deletion policy linked to NOT then and it still does. You may also want to read this thread again from Archive 19. And this thread by DHowell on how PLOT is actually used. WP:IINFO says "Articles are not simply...plot summaries" and that is why people nominate articles that are only plot summaries for deletion and cite PLOT.
  • As for the dispute about PLOT being under GUIDE or IINFO, see this thread in Archive 19. And you may want to re-read this thread about your suggested "Misplaced Pages is not a fan guide" rewrite.
  • As for whether PLOT has anything to do with NOTE (it doesn't), read my reply to you on April 7, (go to Archive 17 and search for "21:42, 7 April 2008 (UTC)"). In April, in RFC1 for FICT you started, read the statement by Hiding, the user who added PLOT to NOT in the first place. Hiding said, "I proposed WP:PLOT. The intention was that it be used as a tool to improve articles away from being plot, rather than a tool to delete articles about plot. It has nothing to do with notability, never has, never will. It has to do with article content. WP:PLOT doesn't apply to this question, even though a vast number of people seem to assert it does." Articles that "fail" PLOT do not necessarily "fail" NOTE. Luke Skywalker is a notable fictional character (I mentioned the article about that character clear back on January 20 in my evidence in E&C2), and yet the article is *still* pretty much just a plot summary. TTN says the article has "potential." What do you think?
  • All articles on fictional characters will mainly consist of plot summaries because in order to summarize a fictional character's life, you have to summarize the events related to that character in the fictional work(s) the character appears in. The policy WP:NOT is for listing what Misplaced Pages is not, content not suitable for Misplaced Pages. If PLOT is not meant to be used as a tool to delete, it doesn't belong in WP:NOT, since PLOT's presence in NOT makes it a tool to delete, as can be seen in those AFDs you're tired of me linking to. If an article being just a plot summary is not a reason for deletion, what to you propose to do about all the AFD nominations that cite PLOT as a reason for deletion? Editors are nominating articles that are just plot summaries for deletion and citing PLOT as a reason for deletion because PLOT is in IINFO, IINFO says "Articles are not simply...plot summaries", and NOT is listed as a reason for deletion in the deletion policy. What Misplaced Pages is not is a reason for deletion. I think PLOT should be removed from NOT instead of trying to inform 7 million editors that PLOT is not a reason for deletion. I think PLOT should be removed from NOT because it doesn't have the consensus required to be policy. What do you think should be done? --Pixelface (talk) 03:10, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
    Better education of editors of what failing NOT (including but not limited to PLOT) means, and why AFDs should only be used as the last step in dispute resolution as outlined at WP:DEL. PLOT is an appropriate policy; editors sticking to it blindly with no other recourse but deletion are the problem. (I am not saying that at the end of a day we should never delete plot-only articles; a plot-only article may be deleted if there's no recourse for relocating or saving the content elseshwere, bu these are steps to be done first). --MASEM 03:33, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Pixelface, in no shape or form do I dispute WP:PLOT. Your diff of my comment was to inform DGG about a tag that he asked about. -- Ned Scott 06:52, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
    • I know you don't Ned. I didn't say you did. DGG asked how to mark a section of policy as disputed, you told him how, and I added that tag to this policy. --Pixelface (talk) 23:17, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
  • I don't think it's disputed enough to warrant removal - the concept of the ruling is accepted by nearly all the contributors on this page (so much a majority you could pass RFB with it). It's just the wording that makes it screwy. Sceptre 08:17, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Per Sguereka - a few people making a lot of noise is not equivalent to "disputed" and it's certainly not equal to "consensus". Yes, consensus can change, but you need to demonstrate that it has. Black Kite 08:49, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
    • Yes, we have no consensus on what Misplaced Pages isn't and if anything we need to get back to focusing on building up what it is. Thus, a vocal minority should not be permitted to advance so many AfDs. Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles 16:35, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
      • There is a consensus. It's why this is still policy. And the opposition is a vocal minority until it can show otherwise, which it hasn't. Simply saying that there is no consensus or that there is significant opposition to this policy means nothing unless you have something to show for it. Sephiroth BCR 10:09, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
        • There is no consensus which is why it is being challenged. Those supporting it our a vocal minority. There is clearly significant opposition both here and in practice by those who create and edit the articles in question and by those who also defend them in AfDs. Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles 17:12, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
          • Offer a solution for a new (better) consensus instead of claiming no current consensus. The previous proposal to reword NOT#PLOT did not gain consensus, the proposal to remove NOT-PLOT did not gain consensus. Marking the section as disputed and watching the others work out a solution that fits your views is just the lazy way out (we already have that at FICT). Until then, the previous WP:CONSENSUS stands. – sgeureka 17:27, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
            • A better idea would be to just remove the section altogether as clearly the community at large does not support it. That's the solution. Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles 02:01, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
              • A better idea would be to show that such support for overthrowing NOT#PLOT exists. Doing nothing but saying that it does, again, means nothing. That and the clear opposition you've garnered through this thread is indication enough of how your attempt will end up. Sephiroth BCR 02:25, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
            • The people who want PLOT in NOT can't come to a consensus on what it should say, so how do you expect the people who want PLOT removed from NOT to come to a consensus on what it should say? You don't need to obtain on a policy talk page a consensus to remove a section of policy that does not have consensus. A section of policy needs consensus in order to be policy in the first place. As far as I can tell, there was never consensus to add PLOT to NOT in July 2006 when it was first proposed. As far as I can tell, the only reason PLOT remained in this policy until now is because there wasn't a handful of editors using it to delete every fiction article they could find (although I should note that Metalbladex4 removed PLOT from NOT in October 2006). PLOT is ignored in AFD debates , so you can't say that an article that is only a plot summary is content NOT suitable for Misplaced Pages, and you can't say that PLOT is a "a widely accepted standard that all users should follow." How is the Andrey Nikolayevich Bolkonsky article an example of what Misplaced Pages is not? PLOT simply does not belong in the What Misplaced Pages is not policy. It's fine to tell editors that they should try to be make an article more than just a plot summary, which is why PLOT should be removed from NOT and moved to WP:WAF. --Pixelface (talk) 22:49, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
  • In answer to Pixelface, I have already gone on record to explain that there are very good reasons why WP:NOT#PLOT is highly relevant to fictional topics. Not only have I provided arguments to show that it is not possible to write a plot summary which is not a reinterpretation of the author's interpretion of the fictional world they originally created, but I have also provided reliable secondary sources which show that plot-only articles are not encyclopedic, no matter how heavily they cite primary sources. The reason is that plot summaries fail one of the most important policies in Misplaced Pages, namely that All Misplaced Pages articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view. Works of fiction are written from one or more points of view, such as a first, second or third-person narration. Once you try to summarise a work of fiction, the perspective can change and a books meaning is altered in the process, but also the bias of the person writing the plot summary creeps in to replace that of the author, or reinforces a bias towoards a fictional perspective that may seek to portray real-life events from a literary viewpoint as if it were objective. If Pixelface can provide evidence that an article based on pure plot summary should be included in Misplaced Pages, that might provide ammunition for his arguements. However, since he has not quoted secondary sources for his argruements, they have been rebutted, and from my perspective, the disputes have been resolved, and the matter is closed.--Gavin Collins (talk) 10:29, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
    • Devil's advocate here: they can be sourced using secondary sources; For example, The Doctor Who Reference Guide, which does a good job of summarising the episodes without straying from the author's intent. Sceptre 16:33, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
    • Gavin, go look at some of our Featured Articles on fiction topics and count how many citations you see in the plot summaries. The fact of the matter is that editors are allowed to make descriptive summaries of sources (fictional works in this case) and put those summaries into articles. And plot summaries do not necessarily violate the neutral point of view policy. How could there be any plot summaries in Featured Articles, any plot summaries on Misplaced Pages if they all violate WP:NPOV? That a book can be written in first-, second-, or third-person is not what the neutral point of view policy is talking about. Sometimes it's possible to write plot summaries from secondary sources, but on Misplaced Pages the primary source is considered acceptable. Tell me why the articles Cosette, Andrey Nikolayevich Bolkonsky, Baldrick, and Luke Skywalker should be deleted. Misplaced Pages is not paper, Misplaced Pages is work in progress, there is no deadline, and the editing policy says "It is wonderful when someone adds a complete, well-written, final draft to Misplaced Pages. This should always be encouraged. However, one of the great advantages of the Wiki system is that incomplete or poorly written first drafts of articles can evolve into polished, presentable masterpieces through the process of collaborative editing." If an editor creates a stub that is only a plot summary, that's fine. You don't have to write a Featured Article on your first draft. In the past I've argued that plot summaries should cite secondary sources, but primary sources are considered acceptable. In the past I've argued that plot summaries should cite reliable third-party published sources, but primary sources are considered acceptable. I think free online reliable secondary sources are preferable, since then a reader can immediately check the information in an article, but primary sources are considered acceptable. There's already plenty of evidence in AFDs that editors think articles that are just plot summaries shouldn't be deleted I think it's fine to tell editors in WP:WAF they really should try to add more than just a plot summary to an article — but if they can't do that in five days, so what? PLOT being in WP:NOT is disputed, so please stop removing the {{disputedtag}} from above PLOT. --Pixelface (talk) 00:16, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
      • I was actually asked about unsourced plot summaries on FAC. Normally, they're fine because the episode is the reference itself, and normally doesn't require any more synthesis than normal source interpretation. How it's cited (external vs. primary vs. both vs. none) is a matter of editor preference. Sceptre 01:15, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
In answer to Pixelface , WP:V says that editors should provide a reliable source for quotations and for any material that is challenged or is likely to be challenged, or the material may be removed, and that if no reliable, third-party sources can be found for an article topic, Misplaced Pages should not have an article on it. If an article is comprised soley of plot summary, then it probably fails WP:V, and it will always be at risk of deletion.--Gavin Collins (talk) 11:08, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
Gavin, you may not agree with the fact that we accept primary sources as proper and indeed preferred RSs for V for plot, but nonetheless so we do. Personally, I do not think there is real agreement on either NOT PLOT or any negatively worded content guidelines here. there may be agreement with the concepts behind them, but the wording is no longer what actually applies.DGG (talk) 18:05, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
  • No that would not be fair; he has made valid and well constructed arguments which are worth reading and resonding too, even if you disagree with him. However, if you going to mete out cruel and random punishments, I would like nominate Hiding for special attention :p With regard to the comments made by DGG, I would have to disagree, as if you look at the article Ancient characters in Stargate, which has primary sources, yet fails WP:NOT#PLOT. Without reliable secondary sources, articles like this lack real-world content, context and analysis that is need for an encyclopedic article. One symptom of this that it is an article that is over reliant on an in universe perspective, and is riddled with original research. I would say it is a prime candidate for deletion.--Gavin Collins (talk) 20:20, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
  • And I would say this list is a prime candidate for trimming&merging, especially since interviews and audio commentaries and DVD special features (IIRC) are available for at least some of the characters/actors. Your volunteering in making the info NOT#PLOT-compliant will be very much appreciated, but it will take significantly longer than opening an AfD. – sgeureka 21:26, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

WP:NOT#NEWS

In my opinion, the section should make it much clearer that Misplaced Pages is not a place to put in live coverage of any events, like e.g. live scores of ongoing sports matches. dorftrottel (talk) 18:16, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages talk:What Misplaced Pages is not Add topic