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Talk:Coronation

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Good articlesCoronation was nominated as a Social sciences and society good article, but it did not meet the good article criteria at the time (September 6, 2008). There are suggestions on the review page for improving the article. If you can improve it, please do; it may then be renominated.

Before the Coronation

Does anyone know what the ceremony is called (if any) where a monarch proclaims his/her heir to the throne? The heir is not officially crowned or anything (unless to receive a "prince" or "princess" crown); they are only named as the heir. I know it is probably not practiced now, but was during the Middle and Post-Mideval period...? Frecklefoot | Talk 21:30, August 30, 2005 (UTC)

Something not unlike that took place in Caernarfon in 1969, when the Prince of Wales was installed as such; he even was 'crowned'! It has been called 'investiture' in England/Great Britain/United kingdom. I don't think that there was some kind of such a ceremony for proclaiming the dauphin in France. Mapple 17:27, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Other monachies

There are plenty of monarchies missing, denmark included. Can anyone find this information? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.63.34.250 (talk) 21:40, 12 December 2006 (UTC).

Is this accurate?

"In France, the new monarch ascended the throne when the coffin of the previous monarch descended into the vault at Saint Denis Basilica, and the Duke of Uzes proclaimed 'Le Roi est mort, vive le Roi' (French: 'The king is dead; long live the King!')" I thought that French monarchs often forgoed coronation completly, or if they did have one they waited until several years into their reign. Ahassan05 17:00, 16 February 2006 (UTC)ahassan05

British Monarchy's current ceremony/wording/oath?

Curious if anyone thinks it would be beneficial to include in this entry the text from the British Monarchy's current ceremony? Since Britain is the most well-known in the "western world", it would be interesting, I think, to know exactly what the monarch says at the time of his/her coronation.

Especially curious, I guess, since the Misplaced Pages entry for "Monarchy in Canada" ( http://en.wikipedia.org/Monarchy_in_Canada#Legal_role ) says that the Queen has obligations to her subjects based on the coronation ceremony. (The Monarch's acceptance of her responsibilities to her subjects is symbolised by the Coronation Oath.)


Can anyone help out here? (I'm not very experienced with how Misplaced Pages contents are written/organized).

Text of the Monarch of the Commonwealth Realms' Coronation Oath is included here: Coronation of the British monarch. Perhaps just a link from this article to that one is all that's necessary. --gbambino 18:50, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Prayed to the Tsar?

What evidence is there the the Russian peasants prayed to the tsar?

I'm curious as to whether there is any Russian source for this. I've seen it in the writings of several British authors of the 19th and early 20th centuries, but have never seen anything written by a Russian about this. The Tsar was considered the "Abbot" of the nation, and he was often addresed by the familiar diminutive, Batushka, but I don't know of any Russian source saying he was worshipped--unofficially or otherwise--as a god (or even a demigod). MishaPan 21:20, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Rule by the grace of God

I think my edit summaries need clarification. Historically many bishops have been styled "dei gratia episcopus" &c (though I'm not sure about the Pope himself). The formula is often used in the preambles of Papal Bulls too, so it may not be wholly accurate to say that it's never been applied to a Pope. Admittedly it's at least uncommon.

However I don't think that was the point of the paragraph. If you read the whole thing, it's clear that what is being said is not that the by-the-grace-of-God formula was used as an argument for absolutism on its own, but also that a belief that "monarchs were chosen by God" and that "the crown was bestowed by God" was used as an argument for absolutism. Now, according to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, "The Pope enjoys, by divine institution, 'supreme, full, immediate, and universal power in the care of souls'" and most Catholics believe that Apostolic Succession and the office of Pope were established by Jesus Christ Himself. So even if the Pope isn't actually said to rule "by the grace of God", he is still an example of an absolute head of state whose power is said to derive from God.

Even if you disagree with all of that, I don't see why my edit was reverted, except to try to pick holes in the example used in the edit summary. It's obviously not possible to say that the fact "has ceased to be used as an argument for absolutism" since only one person anywhere in the world need repeat the argument in order to contradict the assertion. My edit was a minor improvement. It's much better to state that the argument "was used" without any pointless and unverifiable claims that it's now never used. --Lo2u 03:06, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

My revert was indeed too peremptory. In reality the two versions are about equivalent: neither offers the reader much on the paragraph topic, which is the historically religious aspect of some corontations. --Wetman 04:54, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Article Expansion

I've hugely expanded and edited this article, but I was unable to find anything definitive about coronations (or lack thereof) for the kings of modern Italy or the emperors of China. While some sources mentioned coronations in Italy, I wasn't able to find anything that I could reference, nor any details on the ceremonies (if any). Also, although I referenced info from more than one source saying that Emperors of Austria weren't crowned as such, I have seen some drawings of earlier Austrian rulers (Maria Teresa, etc.) being crowned, so I'm not sure what to make of that. If anyone has any info on these subjects, or any other part of this article, please feel free to add it! - Ecjmartin (talk) 17:43, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Coronation/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

I am going to have to fail this article's GA nomination, due mainly to referencing issues, but also to other MOS and style concerns. Below is a list of some issues that I found in a check of the article:

Under-referencing

  • Under-referencing. The "The ceremony" section is almost completely unreferenced, and many of the individual country sections are completely or partially unreferenced.
    • I'll see what I can find for the "ceremony" section. In regards to the individual country sections, this is because I just wasn't able to find too much specific info on their coronation rituals. Unfortunately, there just doesn't seem to be much available for some countries! But I will look around some more, and see what I might be able to find. - Ecjmartin (talk) 01:45, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
      • I'm not saying that the sections should be expanded (although in some instances this would be nice). What I'm saying is that the information that is there needs to be referenced.
        • I agree. In some cases (Bavaria, for instance, comes readily to mind, though there are others), there just isn't that much specific info out there on their coronation rituals (or lack thereof). But I'm going to give some more attention to this over the next several days, as it seems to be (as you indicated) the main issue preventing the article from advancing to GA. - Ecjmartin (talk) 14:16, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
  • After re-reading and considering the contents of the "ceremony" section, I found most of it to be repetitive, and so I thought it best to delete most of it and rewrite it as a "history and development" section, with appropriate referencing. - Ecjmartin (talk) 00:38, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Web references; publisher info

  • All web references must have publisher information. Also, web references need a title, they should not simply be a bare web link.
  • I think I've gotten publisher info on all the references now. For some reason, reference 28 refuses to "format" for me to provide a quick-link to the site given. Not sure if this is because it is a .doc site (as opposed to a .com or .net, etc.), but otherwise, please look it over and see if it meets Misplaced Pages standards (this is most definitely NOT my strong suit!). Thanks! - Ecjmartin (talk) 01:23, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Article layout

  • The way that this article is laid out could use some work. My thought would be to arrange the "Coronations in the Modern Era" section by geographic area, and information on all of the countries in that area can be included in one section. If a country's section is long, it can have its own subheader, or if the section is short and there are only one or two sentences, it can be combined with other countries in sort of a "Coronations of Europe (or Asia, or Africa)" section.
    • I didn't want to completely eliminate the individual country headings, as I think even the one-sentence nations ought to be listed individually for ease of reference, but I did rearrange them by geographic area as you suggested. How does it look to you now? - Ecjmartin (talk) 01:45, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Inclusiveness

  • This works for me. My only question would be: are these all of the kingdoms that have had coronations in the modern era? If you're going to list some of them, you should list all of them.
    • All that I can find info for. I looked for Swaziland and Morocco (two modern monarchies not listed here), together with China and Italy (defunct monarchies), but wasn't able to find anything specific--but I will look some more. I think you make a good point here. - Ecjmartin (talk) 14:16, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
      • I have added sections on Swaziland (what little I was able to find; there wasn't much, but I'm still looking!) and the Toro Kingdom of modern Uganda; this is an ongoing effort. - Ecjmartin (talk) 16:11, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
  • I have listed everything I could find. I just wasn't able to find anything on the net about Chinese coronation rituals; that really astounds me--but then again, maybe I just didn't look in the right place. I would like to go ahead and submit it for GA reconsideration; if I or someone else is able to find anything (via printed library resources, etc.), it can always be added later. Morocco, too. - Ecjmartin (talk) 01:26, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Image use rationales

  • Check your images for use rationales. For example, the picture of Queen Elizabeth II's coronation is fair use, with no rationale for why this use constitutes fair-use. The picture of Christian VIII of Denmark's coronation is listed as an "own work" release, but it is an engraving done in the 1800's, so I highly doubt that the creator is alive and web-savvy today.
    • In terms of the Christian VIII picture, would this not qualify as a reproduction of a two-dimensional work of art (and thus in public domain) per Misplaced Pages policy (see Charlemagne illustration at the top of this article)? Could this be fixed by simply changing the fair-use rationale on the Christian VIII picture, or is something else required? In regard to the Elizabeth II picture, I've replaced it with another image which has no fair use issues. The other images in the article all appear to be okay in this regard (please correct me if I'm wrong, though!). - Ecjmartin (talk) 01:45, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
      • I guess this works for now. I'm not an images expert, so I'm not really up-to-date on all of the policies :)
        • Me, neither. But when I checked the Charlemange image, it appeared that the same fair-use standard used on that one would apply to the Christian VIII one, since both are reproductions of two-dimensional works of art. - Ecjmartin (talk) 14:16, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Lead section

Concluding comments

These are the main issues that I saw on a quick run through of the article. When these concerns have been taken care of, please re-nominate this article for GA. If you have any questions, please let me know on my talk page. Dana boomer (talk) 21:02, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

I've interspersed my replies above. The referencing in the article is the biggest issue that will prevent it from becoming GA. Dana boomer (talk) 12:46, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for your comments. Looks like we've eliminated three out of the six issues of concern; I'll focus on getting more references over the next few days, together with publisher info for the references I have, and see if I can find some info on the missing monarchies. Thanks again! - Ecjmartin (talk) 14:33, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Eliminating "The ceremony" section

Part of the GA review for this article questioned a lack of references in the section entitled "The ceremony". Much of the information therein was redundant, being mentined earlier in the lead section, or in later parts devoted to specific countries. Hence, in the interests of length as well as of article quality, I felt it best to simply delete most of it, keeping only the portion dealing with the legal issues involved. However, if any other editors disagree with this decision, please feel free to reinsert and/or edit it. - Ecjmartin (talk) 17:11, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Multimedia

I have concerns about this entire section. All links are to YouTube, and all footage is presumably copyrighted, therefore subject to immediate removal from YT. Should we perhaps remove this section, as it's impossible to predict whether or not it will be useful (i.e. dead links) on a day to day basis? Prince of Canada 04:36, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree with your concerns; I hadn't considered that when creating the links. I'm definitely going to keep the Norwegian link, as I was able to change it from a Google link to one directly from the Official Norwegian monarchy website. I'll eliminate all of the YouTube links, but I'm going to see first if I can't find some other, independent source for these or other coronation videos. - Ecjmartin (talk) 12:47, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
Take another look at the section and see if these links are better. I eliminated all of the YouTube links, replacing them with others (or, in the case of Elizabeth II, I kept a YouTube link that was referenced directly from HM's personal, official, YouTube channel). Let me know what you think! - Ecjmartin (talk) 14:03, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Image placement

We moved most of the images in the article to the right side, per MOS requirements regarding placement of images in sections. My question is: since we have consolidated the formerly separate country sections into continental sections, would it be MOS-okay to move some of the images to the left within each "continental" section, to create a more "balanced" look to the article? It's not really a big deal, either way; just an ascetical issue, really. - Ecjmartin (talk) 14:10, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

I would prefer not. Prince of Canada 16:20, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
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