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Articles for deletionThis article was nominated for deletion on 11 November 2008 (UTC). The result of the discussion was no consensus.

Let's keep the comments clean and civil from now on. Here are my suggestions. From now onwards, before making changes, vocalize them here and gain consensus. Add your suggestions under the banners below:--Flewis 12:58, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages being used as a propaganda platform

Article version assessed can be found here

I've finally found some time to sit down and assess this article, the sources, facts and tone. I can only say that the article and subject is even more disappointing than I originally thought while supporting the AFD for this article earlier. There are several issues with the subject matter and analysis shows malicious intent and wishful thinking on part of original/major contributor/s . Leaving that aside, one can clearly note that the core of the article is majorly a copy paste of article from http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/punjab.htm Sikhs in Punjab website content which itself has several problems.

Particularly, I found the following problems while looking into the text in question:

Problems

  • Sources are unreliable for justifying the extra-ordinary claims made via this article
  • Some of the sources have been blown out of context.
  • Reference manipulation has been used to justify the article and survive AFD.
  • The purpose and modus-operandi of the contributor are suspect. The aim of the article is propaganda and not encyclopedic information.
  • After filtering and fixing things what is left behind are just WP:POVFORK of the article Khalistan and Punjab Insurgency.

Primary source being used on the article: The following article is being used the main source http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/punjab.htm. Core of the[REDACTED] article is verbatim copy paste from this article which is cited 13 times directly. It is then used 3 more times by first copy pasting from this article and then attributing the content to some other source. So in all, this article has been used 16 times in the current text on wikipedia.

Some claims in the current article taking this source and some examples of malicious editing:

  • In the 1970s, the Government of India did not respond adequately to Sikh grievances. This led to confrontations between fundamentalist Sikhs and non-Sikh extremist groups which culminated into incidents like Operation Bluestar.
  • Operation Bluestar, the assassination of Indira Gandhi by her Sikh bodyguards and the following anti-Sikh riots organized by Congress reinforced Sikh extremism, leading to an increase in the political assassinations
  • When the moderate Akali Dal Sikhs led by Harchand Singh Longowal reached a peace agreement with the Government, the fundamentalists condemned him as a traitor and he was assassinated.
  • The terrorists started using religion to secure the support of Sikhs for political gain.
Manipulation of the source: The source says “some political parties” started to make use of religion and does not say anything about “terrorists”.
  • The United Nations Special Rapporteur's concluded in his February 1997 report that the situation of Indian Sikhs in the religious field is satisfactory.
  • In the early 1990s, a number of militant groups tried to impose "codes of conduct" for journalists; these codes carried a death penalty for those who disobeyed. Sikhs belonging to non-orthodox minority sects were also murdered
  • The extremists also kidnapped civilians for extortion, and frequently murdered them when the demands were not met. Threats were also made to the minority Hindu populationso as to drive them out of Punjab.This resulted in thousands of Hindus fleeing the state.

Problems with using this source

  1. The source has no author or a group of authors (authorship issue).
  2. No publish date of the article or revision date, whatsoever. (timeliness issue).
  3. It is full of weasel words.
  4. Its not a journal and nor really a reliable source as there is no peer review. However, its still heavily cited in the article (13 times directly, plus 3 more times maliciously).
  5. This article has no citations at all; there is no source of claims. Did the internet publisher find all these by himself/herself? If not, what are the sources on which the publisher is relying on? Are those sources reliable? As such it is almost impossible to ascertain if the source is facts, just opinion or just another piece of propaganda.
  6. This could a perfect example of using something as a primarily source whose source itself is not known and very well could be a unreliable or one sided point-of-view from a “conflicting interest” source.
  7. Could there be a special interest issue here? If there is no certainty on this, this source cannot be used in the way it is being used by the contributor.
  8. Qualifications of the author? (…even the authorship is not published).

Errors in the major source itself

After enlisting of the citing issues in the previous section, now lets check the accuracy of the source itself with the motive of learning only because first look of the website and article shows its not worth it.

  1. Right in the beginning the article states - "The problems that arose in Punjab were due to the religion-based elements who sought to widen the communal divide between the Sikhs and other communities ....". The article starts with a vague topic sentence and one is left wondering about the writers generalizations of Punjab problems and reflecting that they are (all) religion based. Does the writer know all the problems that arose in Punjab? The list is quite long starting from underground water table rising to that of those political ones; are these all religion based?
  2. The article calls Nanak "a high class Hindu" which is very absurd. Nanak was born in a Hindu family but he never claimed to be a Hindu, hence such claims by the author/authors just make no sense at all and only expose the quality of the pen. In fact, Nanak proclaimed - "I am neither Muslim nor Hindu".
  3. Wrongly states that 5K's are prescribed to Sikh men and creates confusion as if women are not included. The article states - "For men the Sikh religion requires observance of the "5 Ks": Kes (uncut hair and beard); Kacch (breeches); Kirpan (a double edged sword); Kangh (a steel comb); and Kara (an iron bangle)." However, the Sikh Code of Conduct published by SGPC does not have any such different classification.
  4. "Kangha" (Punjabi word) is first wrongly written as "Kangh" and then wrongly translated to "steel comb". Kangha or Kangh, whatever one wishes to call, simply means "a comb", from where did the author/author's attach "steel" to the translation?
  5. "Kirpan" (Punjabi word for sword) is wrongly translated as "a double edged sword". "Kirpan" simply means "a sword", from where did the author/author's add the adjective "double edged"?
  6. The article states "New religious ideologies early in the 20th century caused tensions in the Sikh religion". What are these "new religious ideologies" and why does the author/author's feel they are "new" is not made clear anywhere in the article. Further, what are "the tensions in Sikh religion" that these created according to the author/author's?
  7. Then the most ignorant mis-translation is done by translating the name of the political party "Akali Dal" to "Army of Immortals". "Akali" means "pertaining to Akaal" where "Akaal" means "timeless" and is used to describe the Sikh point of view of supreme power that governs the cosmos. "Dal" simply means "a group or a party". This translational inaccuracy (deliberate or not) is very disastrous. It also points that the writer/s of this article have wrongly transposed their learnings from Islam onto Sikh related issues.
  8. Further, the article asserts - "In 1966 a compromise was reached, when two new states of Punjab and Haryana were created". First, Haryana was the new state not Punjab. Second, out of the original Punjab 2 new states of Haryana and Himachal Pradesh were cut out with the simultaneous subtraction of 3 major hydro-electric power potential reservoirs from Punjab (Gobind Sagar dam, Pong dam, Salal dam) by mere 0.6 to 1.86 miles.
  9. About Bhindranwale the article says, "He preached strict fundamentalism and armed struggle for national liberation". What is "national liberation" here?
  10. Weasel words - "....500 followers of Bhindranwale and 150 members of other armed groups". What are these "other armed groups"?
  11. Weasel words - "Political representatives informed the UN Special Rapporteur on .....". Which "Political representatives" is the writer/s talking about here? Were they Sikh political representatives, Government or a third party?
  12. Weasel words - "The Special Rapporteur was informed by other sources, including non-governmental and religious organizations, that the situation in Punjab had no religious basis, rather it was purely political". What are these "other sources", no particular mention other than vague classification.
  13. Weasel words - "Certain Sikh political parties had exploited that situation for their own ends....". What are these "Sikh political parties"?
  14. Weasel words - New para started with "According to these sources, the purpose of Operation Blue Star..." which sources?
  15. Inaccurate information - "The continued presence of security forces at the Golden Temple was necessary to remain vigilant against any attempt at destabilization. Access to the place of worship had not been hindered". This claim is far from truth, as in fact nobody other than army was allowed to enter the Golden Temple complex for days as the army carried on its post Operation Bluestar "clean up" work.
  16. Weasel words - Another para starts "These sources concluded that there was no religious problem, ....." Once again, confusing weasel words. Who are "these sources"?

(the underline emphasis is mine)

Other problems which show no-good faith editing and pov propaganda

Another reference manipulation:

The following text: "Prime Minister of India Dr Manmohan Singh has been critical of Sikh terrorism, he was once the finance minister under Indira Gandhi who was assassinated by her Sikh bodyguards". claims "Sikh terrorism". However, the references say nothing about this claim as noted and removed already here by Deavenger. The second part of this sentence is "appeal to emotion" and part of propaganda tactics which should have no place on wikipedia.

Ethical problem-1:

The following is direct copy paste from GlobalSecurity web but maliciously attributed to BBC: "Almost all of the Sikh militant groups in Punjab aimed to create an independent theocratic state called Khalistan through acts of violence directed not only at members of the police and security forces, but also specifically at Hindu and Sikh civilians who did not share their political views."

Lead is OR, makes extraordinary controversial claim but still no references provided

Ethical problem-2:

A contributor who was against AFD pushed the following onto the lead: -

  1. “Sikh extremism is religious terrorism by groups or individuals, the motivation of which is typically rooted in an idiosyncratic Sikh beliefs, principles and tenets.”
This lead contribution itself tells a lot about the contributor. However, lets just focus on the text as per Misplaced Pages policy.

  • How was the term “Sikh extremism” coined and where is this definition published?
  • Who linked the term “Sikh extremism” to “religious terrorism”
  • Where is the research from a peer reviewed highly cited work that tells that the source of this so called “Sikh extremism” (which the contributor equated to “religious terrorism”) is “typically rooted in an idiosyncratic Sikh beliefs, principles and tenets”? In fact, this is a super extraordinary claim. Misplaced Pages says, “extraordinary claims will need extraordinary evidence”. Not surprisingly, the contributor still found it all right to not provide even a single source, leave aside it being reliable and extra-ordinary.

These are just a few hasty examples from the primary source being used on the article. This source is not at all a reliable source to cite for extra-ordinary claims as done by the article in question and hence its content should be removed from the article. After removing this content, one should revisit the article to see what else is left - nothing other than WP:POVFORK of the articles Khalistan and Punjab Insurgency.

Regards, --RoadAhead 00:49, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Hi Road, I am bit busy now and will later comment in this post, but I must state that rarely have I seen such thorough post in talk page, kudos. LegalEagle (talk) 01:16, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
Global security site may have some defects one being a glaring lack of references but except for peer reviewed journals rarely do reports/articles have sources, one does not find reporters from times or telegraph giving reference whenever they give an information which is in public domain. I think instead of investigating whether lead contribution itself tells a lot about the contributor roadahead should consider googling and replacing the global security info refs which has been used in the article. Also dont broach the topic of POVfork again and again the issue has been done to death in the Afd and there was clearly no consensus so dont just try to push a pov. LegalEagle (talk) 04:54, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
This is in reply to Roadahead's post on my talk page inviting me to take a look at this. Sorry – I'm neither knowledgeable about nor really interested in the subject matter, and must respectfully decline.  Sandstein  06:54, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
Because GlobalSecurity has not ONE author, doesnt make it POV, the information gathered over a number of years by GlobalSecurity.org not just regarding Sikh Extremism but also the like of Hamas or al-Qaeda amongst many others makes it a less POV source than say Sikh Extrmists themselves like the ISYF who as I understand are against being labeled fundamentalist terrorists as as is Osama Bin Laden Satanoid (talk) 12:34, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
User Talk: Roadahead, thanks for doing such thorough analysis. Kudos to you. I fully agree with you that this article is a WP:POVFORK of the articles Khalistan and Punjab Insurgency only. Infact Punjab Insurgency should also be merged into Khalistan movement. I sincerely hope that the respected editors who voted in favour of this article, will read and study the facts which you have presented. This propaganda article must be deleted. --Beetle CT (talk) 17:38, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
What a wonderful analysis by the user Roadahead! I agree with the user above that it is rarely that someone invests this kind of time and critical thinking in writing a response! The editors need to take a close look at Roadahead's analysis and ensure that this article is deleted. Zafarnamah (talk) 19:13, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
Excellent analysis of the article and subject matter. Also many of the links to this article do not function and have been withdrawn from source. There is no doubt in my mind that the intention of the author behind this article is entirely malicious. I will be going through each and every link used within the article when I have time. Thanks --Sikh-history (talk) 09:53, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Enough waiting! Seems like people are not interested to address the real issue. I'll be removing all the claims/statements/source-manipulations stemming from GlobalSecurity source after a few hours. Please do not make unnecessary hue and cry if you cannot see the points that I raised in my analysis above. Thanks, --RoadAhead 08:28, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Hi Road, I strongly believe that unilateral action without consensus would harm the article rather than do good. Please read my comments above as made on 30th Nov. Try to achieve a consensus or I would have no option but to report you to administrators for taking suitable action. LegalEagle (talk) 12:15, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
LegalEagle you and I have both taken unilateral action in the past. The case made by RoadAhead is indeed compelling and there has not been any reponses or rebuttal to his points. --Sikh-history (talk) 14:01, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
LeagleEagle, I'm once again not appreciative of your behavior and choices. Previously you went onto ad-hominem attack on me and now you are almost close to bullying. I had spent quite a time to analyze the issue with using the GlobalSecurity web article, posted the problems here and also invited you for views when you said you were busy. At the same time, I had also invited almost all the registered editors who took part on this article before but none of editors who were against AFD responded on analysis appropriately except AFD closer "Sandstein" who expressed inability to part-take due to lack of knowledge and interest on the subject matter. You never came back on this topic before 30th Nov (even that response from you came after my objection on 29th Nov), but still found time and continued to give tacit approval to editors who are pursuing propaganda and hate on[REDACTED] by editing and removing content to support them. In the same effort you said, "..Milnet is a reputable source on intelligence matter (again this is my perception which i would try to prove to be right in the next few lines) at par with global security".Did you see the glaring mistakes in that article from GlobalSecurity that I pointed to here? What should one think about your priorities? Should I think that you want to neglect the mistakes and carry on using unreliable sources with glaring mistakes? ....Now you call my action "unilateral" even when I invited nearly 10 editors (including you) to read and comment on the problems that I pointed to? Please be reasonable in your stand. --RoadAhead 16:29, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
Hi Road, quite respecting your zeal to present a pov I was really struck by penchant to pick and choose your support. While in Operation Blue Star you would love to support wide pro millitant propaganda in the guise of 'alleged cruelty of indian army' on the basis of one peer reviewed journal and sources (footnotes) copied from single source but you would not do so for the present article on the basis that global security, a well reputed website, in this particular hasnt given reference. This is a blatant double standards being shown by you, yet you accuse me of giv tacit approval to editors who are pursuing propaganda and hate on wikipedia. Carrying on from my arguements as given on 30th, I have just one thing to say all the big essay that you have tried to write against globasecurity I think that your overharping on reference issue would have a gaping hole and would be the weakest link, Janes military weekly also rarely gives reference to its astounding claims, does that make it any less reliable. It all depends on the reputation of the source in question and its relevence in the light of the wiki article. Moreover most of the information for which global security was used as a source are for issues which are already in public domain; thus excessive harping on the suitability of global security would show that instead of following wiki norms and presenting a npov idea though discussion you are covertly and overtly trying to manipulate the system and in aiding it to be used as a platform for disseminating false and malicious information. LegalEagle (talk) 15:05, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
Hi LegalEagle, Prejudice will not help to see what I pointed to in my "big essay" (as you call it) above. Nevertheless, can you show how I am "supporting wide pro militant propaganda"? Talking about or adding facts about abuse of power by army and human rights violations becomes "militant propaganda"? What is so "militant" about it? ....any chance of it being "human" according to your point of view? I don't understand what you are talking about footnotes and "blatant double standards" in your comment and would like you to expand those on the appropriate article "Operation Bluestar" where we can discuss that further. I said your behavior is giving "tacit approval" to Satanoid etc because you skipped replying to my "big essay" which shows several inaccuracies in the GlobalSecurity article (see above) but still kept removing another editor Sikh-history's and my edits from the article. I would like you to also note that my points written above are not "against GlobalSecurity" as you have generalized above; rather they highlight several inaccuracies in that article "Sikhs in Punjab" and the problems associated with using it as the core reference of the article like it was being done by Satanoid. Also, note that what you are trashing as "over harping on references" highlights 16 accuracy etc related problems and 8 problems on using that article as source (in addition to unethical editing of Satanoid; whats your take on those 24 (16 + 8) points in the "big essay" above? If you think other reliable neutral sources for the claims made by using GlobalSecurity article exist, why don't you input those sources as you are already aware of those? Lastly, the claim of "covertly and overtly trying to manipulate the system and in aiding it to be used as a platform for disseminating false and malicious information" is a very heavy claim because a discerning readers of our discussion would first like to know where I have presented "false and malicious information" and how you came to know about the "covertness" and "overtness" factor that you allege. So my friend, lets be reasonable and keep our hearts and brains open even if we disagree. Thanks, --RoadAhead 04:57, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
Please stop calling people prejudiced. What you're doing is critiquing the GlobalSecurity article itself, apparently because you perceive it to contain some unsavoury information. So by questioning what is an obviously reliable source you're simply trying to push your POV on this issue, but removing information that you do not agree with. If you're going to ask for references FOR references, then we can continue doing that ad infinitum. --vi5in 17:04, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
Vivin, This is what I meant by the statement which you quickly jumped to call "personal attack" - LeagleEagle has been calling me baised towards some assumed pro Khalistani ideals(of course unwarranted) in our previous discussions; that combined with his not responding appropriately to the points that I raised here made me feel that presence of "prejudice" in his thinking towards me is not helping constructive discussion. Let me point you back to 16 accuracy etc related problems and 8 problems on using that article as source (in addition to unethical editing). Specifically, note 8 problems on using that article as source. You are wrongly classifying my removal of the inaccurate and unreliable information by hijacking my logic behind the removal as "...removing information that you do not agree with". May I request you to re-read the points above to get the logic behind my removal?. Again, you have gone onto assuming by saying -"If you're going to ask for references FOR references, then we can continue doing that ad infinitum" - can you show me where I am saying give me references for references? The main issue is of inaccuracy, unreliability and "no-extraordinary source" capability of this article which is being used to make extra-ordinary claims. Regards,--RoadAhead 19:24, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
Hello Roadahead, what I meant by the references was that you were claiming that there are no references in the Global Security article itself. I don't agree with your removal of the pieces of text supported by Global Security, but I do agree with you that the article could definitely be written better. Please look at my recent changes and my comment at the end of this talk page regarding those recent changes. --vi5in 20:22, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
Hi Road at least I am not in cohort with people who made a willing experienced administrator who was ready to mediate on a sensitive topic run away because of constant covert accusations of being unfair, so come out of the 'being persecuted' mentality. LegalEagle (talk) 02:31, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
LeagleEagle, please stop personal attacks on other editors. Did he ever ask you to come out of Anti-Sikhism mentality. --Singh6 (talk) 03:51, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
LeagleEagle, once again you are digressing and not addressing the real issue. May I again request you to address these and these points? --RoadAhead 06:47, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Article Cleanup

This article could use a major cleanup. I've cleaned it up a little bit, but more needs to be done. I've definitely noticed blatantly POV statements in this article, in addition a section that did nothing other than list terrorist acts. This really isn't the way to write an article. In addition, the article could be better organized. Finally I also think that some sections fall afoul of WP:UNDUE. I mean, it's evident that Sikh fundamentalists carried out terrorist acts; that's what the article is about. But the article should be about the genesis of the movement, its role in the world and its impact. Not a laundry list of terrorist acts. I hope the other editors here agree with me. --vi5in 20:18, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Now that the page has been protected, can all parties discuss the issue here? I don't want to hear anything as to why the article should be deleted. The article exists and so let's just try to make it read better. I hope my comments above will show that I'm not hear to spread any kind of POV. The article in its current state could use a LOT of improvement. The only thing that I request (and I'm repeating myself) is that you don't harp on whether this article needs to exist or not. --vi5in 22:22, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
"Now that the page has been protected" is passive voice which may hide the reality; the page has been actually gotten protected by writer of this line (Vivin). Please note that passive tone has been often used to evade reality and as such this one could be seen as the same. This is what actually happened, first Vivin violated 3RR by continuously reverting to disputed content (example see his back to back revert-5, revert-4, revert-3, revert-2 and revert-1). Seeing which RoadAhead (that is, me) filed 3RR report. After which, vivin rushed to make "a few changes on article while still keeping much of the disputed content" and then rushed to seek page protection. Vivin then came to the talk page acting mediator. See the timeline of these actions from vivin and see the extensive discussion already filed on the talkpage to decide on your own if this is ethical behavior? For me, its an obvious approach of first avoiding discussion and pushing POV via continuous reverts and then evading ban by introducing small edit and asking for page protection to disputed content. Wasn't the discussion already there? Why not rebutt the 24 (16 + 8 ) issues already listed on the talkpage by me many days ago?--RoadAhead 07:13, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
Hi vi5in has not most of the content here been covered in other articles i.e. Khalistan, Behzti etc. Is there really a need for this? The whole question of Khalistan (which is the catalyst for terrorist attacks) is linked to Khalistan. We do not treat the outrages in Northern Ireland as Catholic Terrorism, but as terrorist attacks done by those who want a united Ireland. There really is no need for this page. This can be easily iincorporated in previous pages on Khalistan --Sikh-history (talk) 23:49, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
Well, the problem is that there is still a pervasive influence (or echo, if you will) of the Khalistan movement. For example, there are still groups in North America and the UK that demand a separate Sikh homeland. Activists from these movements were responsible for the Air India bombing, and they definitely share extremist viewpoints. Therefore, I believe that the term is definitely encyclopedic. So like I mentioned before, we should describe how the movement came about, its peak (during Operation Bluestar and the demand for Khalistan), and its current state. Right now the article isn't written too well and it also seems to simply list terrorist acts other than talking about the movement itself. --vi5in 23:54, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
On another note, Khalistan and Operation Bluestar are just instances of Sikh extremism and don't actually talk about the term itself. Finally, the as far as the IRA is concerned, it really wasn't Catholic Terrorism since it wasn't based on Catholic Ideology. Of course, a lot of the bad blood was based on Catholic vs. Protestant, but really what it came down to was a separate homeland for the Irish based on being Irish and not just being Catholic. Whereas, the idea for Sikh extremism is based on being Sikh (or their idea of what a Sikh is, anyway). --vi5in 23:57, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
Exactly my point--vi5in. Just as the IRA did not see their form of terrorism as Catholic terrorism, so the Khalistan movement and associated terrorism cannot really be percieved as "Sikh" terrorism. There are dissafected groups in all walks of life. There are no words or terms for a "Holy" war within the Sikh ideoligy. Christianity talks about crusades and Islam about Jehad, wrongly or rightly in some Christian or Islamic eyes, acts of terrorism could be done on this basis. There is no equivalent to this ideoligy amongst Sikhs. In order to have a basis to link Sikhism with terrorism, one would have to prove that there is an ideological link wihin Sikhism that can justify terrorist behaviour. There is none. Therefore as I stated before, any terrorist activity that Sikhs have done are based not on religion, but of a Homeland called Khalistan (that was promised at the birth of India and Pakistan to Sikhs). One aspect that has not been mention is the political wing of the Khalistan movement led by Simranjit Singh Mann, the equivalent of Sein Fein.--Sikh-history (talk) 10:44, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Here would be my plan of attack:

  • We find an agreement on sources. If we really are getting our panties tangled over a couple sources, then they should be replaceable, and if they're not, we are breaking WP:UNDUE.
  • We restart the article, yes, restart it, from scratch, using these sources and strictly following a methodological guideline.

I am not really that excited over the current state of the article. And we should not push WP:Original Research theories if this terrorism is related to Ireland, or is simply a political Khalistan movement. We must rely on what the sources tell us. --Enzuru 04:03, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Hi Enzuru, I would argue that this article and the premise that there is an organised terrorist movement based on the ideoligy of Sikhism is original research. Any terrorist attacks that have ever occured or carried out by Sikh have been based on the Khalistan movement and not on Sikh ideoligy.--Sikh-history (talk) 10:44, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
Lets start by addressing the the lead first which currently says -"Sikh extremism is religious terrorism by groups or individuals, the motivation of which is typically rooted in an extreme interpretation of Sikh beliefs, principles and tenets." I'd already mentioned the problems with lead towards end of my discussion here. The current lead is now a little changed (from what I objected to) but still problematic as it is making big claims and yet is unsourced. Regards, --RoadAhead 07:33, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
Well RoadAhead, how exactly would you define Sikh Extremism? Isn't it an extreme interpretation of Sikh principles and tenets? And haven't these extreme interpretations resulted in violent (terrorist?) acts? --vi5in 17:28, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
Vivin, you still don't get it? If I define it wouldn't it be OR and self-publishing? That is exactly one of the issues which was presented here. Did you skip reading that discussion? --RoadAhead 00:37, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
Roadahead, all you have said is that it makes controversial claims. If you really want to split hairs and be extremely pedantic, we would have to define the term extremism and then show that the behaviour of these individuals is extreme. I think we can safely assume all that. We don't need references for things which are immediately obvious. To say "Sikh extremism is a manifestation of an extreme interpretation of Sikh religious principles and tenets" - should be sufficient. Is that better? --vi5in 03:02, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
Furthermore, you asked where this term is defined. Here are a few places. We can start there for a good definition. I haven't gone through all that information yet, but it does show that the term exists and is used. --vi5in 03:05, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
Hi vi5in, see my comments above about the premise of the article and the presumption that this is terrorism based on Sikh principles. This is clearly wrong.--Sikh-history (talk) 10:47, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Sikh-history and RoadAhead, I think you are missing the point in that this article will not be deleted or is not flawed in its concept, because it clearly is a term that is used. Since the term is visibly used (as vi5in just showed) we must use these very same sources to define what Sikh extremism is. If we want to write an entire article on how the term is perhaps part of hate speech, then we can, if that's what most of the sources are saying. But we can't use WP:Original research to discount the term unless the sources themselves are doing that, like was seen in Hindu terrorism where all the sources that referenced it were jesting at the idea of it, hence it was deemed not notable or was simply a fringe view and deleted. So once again, I propose the methodology of outlining a good amount of sources and then from those sources building an entirely new article free of both controversial sources and edits that perhaps aren't done in good will. RoadAhead made points that were deemed acceptable by many about our current use of sources, but I believe we also should come to the consensus that this article is certainly notable using sources aside from GlobalSecurity and anything else perhaps less mainstream. --Enzuru 10:51, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Hi Enzuru, with all due respect, I am not missing the point. The point everyone is missing is that any Sikh Extremism is not fuelled by religion, or any ideoligy rooted in Sikhism, it is rooted in the Khalistan movement. I would argue that the definition of Sikh Extremism in this article WP:Original research. Any refrence to Sikh extremism should be under the subsection of Khalistan. You don't need an article making unsubstantiated claims that Sikh Extremism is linked to the religion. Now if people want a debate onn Sikh ideolighy and religion then lets have one. The premise and definitions are worng. No one denies it does not exist but is not based on any religious ideoligy. If anything one could link the Khalistan movement directly to the Akali Daal Party and the Congress Party and the dissafection of Punjabi farmers. I have no difficulty in the term Sikh Extremism, but it is wrongly defined. In order to define Sikh Extremism and based in Sikhism one would have to root it in Sikh ideoligy. There is not one refrence that can do this. Regards.--Sikh-history (talk) 11:27, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
Not to go around in circles, but what is the Khalistan movement rooted in? It's rooted in the creation of a theocratic Sikh state for Sikhs. Meaning, the basis of the Khalistan movement is the demand for a separate state based on the religion (principle, tenets, what have you) of Sikhism. So Sikh Extremism => Khalistan Movement => Sikh state based on Sikh priciples and tenents. I think we can safely say by transitivity that Sikh Extremism is based on (an extreme interpretation of) Sikh principles and tenents. As Enzuru said, the article exists and is not flawed in its concept. So let's go about trying to source it and write it properly. --vi5in 16:20, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
Once again, if you can cite sources that say Sikh extremism is solely based in the Khalistan movement, then we can put that. What's the problem? If the sources don't claim this, we can't do WP:Original research by claiming it, even if they themselves prove it through their claims. --Enzuru 18:39, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
Ok, let us put it this way, before the issue of Khalistan came to a head in the 1980's was there a single incident of any Sikh being involved in terrorism?--Sikh-history (talk) 22:31, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Vivin, you are still not understanding WP:CITE and WP:NOR- Do you want us to cite your "transitivity theory" in the lead now? Even your OR/POV is not correct. First, "Khalistan Movement" is different if you look up how different people want to define it. GOI (Government of India) may want the world to believe that its "simply religious movement based separatism". However, the Sikhs say its a political demand seeking what was promised to them when they chose to stay with India when the British India was partititioned in 1947. Second, the Sikhs seek implementation of Anandpur Sahib Resolution. (san Jagjit Singh Chauhan, Surjan Singh Gill kinds from my discussion). Jarnail Singh Bhindranwala has been quoted in newspapers on Khalistan issue (just a few examples for now):

"I don't oppose it nor do I support it. We are silent. However, one thing is definite that if this time the Queen of India does give it to us, we shall certainly take it. We won't reject it. We shall not repeat the mistake of 1947. As yet, we do not ask for it. It is Indira Gandhi's business and not mine, nor Longowal's, nor of any other of our leaders. It is Indira's business. Indira should tell us whether she wants to keep us in Hindostan or not. We like to live together, we like to live in India." (stress mine).

"How can a nation which has sacrificed so much for the freedom of the country want it fragmented but I shall definitely say that we are not in favor of Khalistan nor are we against it."

Can I expect a little research from you before your commenting? Sidenote: Even that article of Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale was under similar manipulations of resources, check the proof on talkpage.--RoadAhead 20:02, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Roadahead, I understand WP:NOR and WP:CITE perfectly well. I'm just saying that certain things are immediately obvious. Like I said, the term "Sikh Extremism" exists and is sourced. I'll look up the references I posted to come up with a better definition of the term. Would you ask for a citation saying that the sky is blue? I believe you're being overly pedantic simply because you don't like the idea of Sikh Extremism. Let me ask you a question - do you believe that Sikh Extremism (whatever YOUR definition of the term might be, and I don't mean for the article's sake) exists? --vi5in 21:39, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
Vivin, I disagree on your claim about your understanding of WP:NOR and WP:CITE; let me specifically make you read the section "When adding material that is challenged or likely to be challenged" on the WP:CITE policy which you claim you understand "perfectly well". And now once again let me point you back to the article lead which currently says -"Sikh extremism is religious terrorism by groups or individuals, the motivation of which is typically rooted in an extreme interpretation of Sikh beliefs, principles and tenets." The claims (underlined for you by me) in the preceding lead are not as simple as "Sky is blue". They are controversial and heavy claims (which will most likely be challenged), not a simple statement. Hopefully for the last time, let me call out loud- "Exceptional claims require exceptional sources" --RoadAhead 22:22, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
Instead of arguing about things that have no bearing on this article, how about we start somewhere? Please tell me what YOU think Sikh Extremism is. We can at least try starting from there. Don't quote WP:NOR to me; I'm just asking you what you think it is. I need somewhere to start; I feel like we're going in circles right now without discussing anything. --vi5in 23:27, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
Vivin, I disagree that cite-policy-1 and cite-policy-2 including my discussion "has no bearing on the this article". I haven't hit any "extra-ordinary" source so far that can justify these extraordinary claims, so I have not added anything to lead. Misplaced Pages specifically says - "Exceptional claims in Misplaced Pages require high-quality sources; if such sources are not available, the material should not be included. Also be sure to adhere to other policies, such as the policy for WP:BLP and the undue weight provision of WP:NPOV." Additionally, may I also mention that according to[REDACTED] rules, "I like it" is equally wrong as "I don't like it". --RoadAhead 01:54, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) Did you completely ignore my question? Why are you waffling and deflecting? I didn't ask you about sources. Simply repeating your arguments over and over again isn't going to make your point any stronger. Please answer my question: What is Sikh Extremism according to you? Or if you'd much rather, how would you write the lead of the article to describe "Sikh Extremism"? --vi5in 02:21, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

I can clearly see that its not becoming understandable for sure; can only say please re-read the issues above. --RoadAhead 09:22, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
No, the problem is that you are either unwilling or unable to understand. You know perfectly well what my question is. The reason is that you personally don't want to legitimize the term by telling me what Sikh Extremism is. All your "issues" that have been posted above deal with trying to invalidate the term "Sikh Extremism". All I have asked you is to tell me in your own words what Sikh Extremism means. But you're unwilling to do that. I can see that you have no desire to improve this article. Enzuru and I will work on it and try to make it into a good article. If you ever want to help, feel free to jump in. --vi5in 20:53, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
Vivin, I feel that it is actually you who is "either unwilling or unable to understand"? Yes I perfectly know what your question is, however even after repetitive explanations you still don't understand that you are asking the wrong question. Nevertheless, I had already replied to this question. You are again wrong in trying to bundle my complete ongoing argument (since Nov 26th) as "just trying to invalidated the term Sikh extremism"; having already pointed you back to my original posting in my previous replies I will not do this again this time. Begging the question (assuming the answer) is not the solution of the ongoing issue with this article. Also, may I request you to leave guess work on my desires aside? As other editors have pointed out - the underlying title "Sikh extremism" itself is controversial and there seems no reliable information; most of the considerable sources that I've been hitting on the net are making a word salad out of many words as talking about Khalistan; that takes us back to the povfork issue. Thank you for expressing your desire for making a "good article" out of the ongoing discussion, hopefully you will take "all my issues that have been posted" into consideration. I'll do my best to keep abreast the developments, however, I cannot guarantee that I'll be able to support expanding even if the article starts appearing like a coatrak. Cheers--RoadAhead 01:01, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
On the contrary, I understand very well. I'm not sure what your definition of "explanation" is, but repeatedly linking to a critique of the term "Sikh Extremism" doesn't quite do it. You manage to say a lot while saying very little. I'm removing myself from this current thread. I can see that it won't go anywhere, and that you simply can't even bring yourself to define the term, inspite of references that support it (a direct invalidation of your "word salad" claim). --vi5in 03:09, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
Vivin, by "explanation" I meant the repetitive description of the problem that I have been trying to put across in my talks with you. No I have not linked to any critique of the word "Sikh Extremism" in my previous reply, did you assume the 2 links are pointing to there? (they are not). Cheers! --RoadAhead 05:35, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Rebuilding the article from scratch, without the POV nonsense

I've started to rebuild the article from scratch. You are all invited to contribute: User:Vivin/Sandbox/Sikh_Extremism. --Enzuru 22:44, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, Enzuru! Now we're getting somewhere! --vi5in 23:31, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
Enzuru I think it will be a good idea to add a second last section (keeping reflist as last) specifically for discussions or comments on the content that anybody adds. May I also suggest, that the rules on the sandbox page should also included that sources with disclaimers on accuracy should not be included, eg -"BECAUSE OF THE RISK OF MISHEARING AND THE DIFFICULTY IN SOME CASES OF IDENTIFYING INDIVIDUAL SPEAKERS, THE BBC CANNOT VOUCH FOR ITS COMPLETE ACCURACY". . Thanks, --RoadAhead 02:00, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
Is there a Misplaced Pages policy that cites that? I don't see any problem in adding a source as long as you provide a disclaimer with it. For example we can cite whatever claim is made and then say that "... although the BBC published a disclaimer and has expresses reservations regarding the source because of the risk of mishearing and the difficulty in some cases of identifying individual speakers." It doesn't make the source any less valid (especially since it is the BBC we're talking about here) --vi5in 02:24, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
You can create that section if you would like RoadAhead, but don't you feel this talk page will work just as well? In fact, the article had its own specific talk page, but I edited it so it forwarded to here. You can edit that talk page so it doesn't redirect to here. Anyway, how much could that transcript really differ from that actual event? Do we have a Misplaced Pages policy against using transcripts that might be slightly inaccurate? Why can't we just note it when we use it as a citation? --Enzuru 02:31, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
Folks, firstly that BBC transcript in question is supposedly a transcript of talk between a few individuals and does not serve an exceptional source for kind of claim it is intended to be used here( WP:NOTSOAPBOX, particularly see "opinions" section under this policy. Wikinews may accommodate such transcripts). Secondly, if we still consider inclusion (out of leniency) it can only be included as a "statement of opinion" of specific notable individuals and not "statement of fact". Even then, there is a real problem when the disclaimer says something like -"..can't guarantee who said what?" (in addition to "no guarantee of accuracy"). So now whom do we attribute the statement of opinion to? This is a clear WP:VERIFY violation. (PS: Its fine to have discussion here as well, just thought it would be convenient to keep all together). --RoadAhead 09:20, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
One statement, by itself is not a violation of WP:SOAPBOX. You're completely misrepresenting Misplaced Pages policy in this matter. The statement is from the BBC, a highly reputable source. It's funny how you're being overanalytical and pedantic with that one source simply because you don't like what it says. I agree that the BBC has expressed reservations about its accuracy (because of the possibility of mishearing things during transcription). But the source itself is not in question so there is absolutely no violation of WP:VERIFY at all. The sentence is sourced and attributable. --vi5in 20:57, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
Vivin, I am really surprised - did you read my reply above? In short - transcript of talk is simply statement of opinion NOT statement of fact. Those statements of opinion are not that of BBC and need to be attributed to some notable person. BBC disclaimer says "cannot guarantee who said what"; here comes the problem with using BBC transcript to support the idea of "Sikh extremism" - and that is "whom to attribute"? A disclaimer of the type "don't know who said what" is certainly a WP:VERIFY violation in this case and we are neither here to do that verification for BBC nor to use it for supporting controversial claims. Hopefully, the issue is clear now. Cheers, --RoadAhead 01:29, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
O RLY? Then I guess we need to go to every single source that the BBC has quoted or transcribed and try and find who said what first. Wow. You have to realize that the BBC itself has a measure of reliability and reputation. They don't simply put crap on there that they can't immediately verify. The source stays. If you have an issue with it, take it to WP:RS. We can discuss it there. --vi5in 03:06, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
Vivin, talkshow => people talk => individual opinions => can only be used as opinions. Now lets say, I want to use BBC transcript of a talk show that had many X,Y,Z talking. There are some comments/views from all people participating on, lets says, the UFO topic. First, I cannot use such transcript (even if its from BBC) and say "UFO's exist" (but if Mr. X is notable on UFO's topic I may be able to say that Mr X says,"..."; but wait see second point). Second, if BBC puts a comment-c1 on UFO's against the name of Mr. X in the transcript (which we are interested in), and then states no guarantee that X said this (via disclaimer), then the WP:VERIFY problem occurs even if I want to attribute this comment-c1 to Mr. X as opinion. In such case appealing to the authority of BBC will be wrong; they have already disclaimed that (via disclaimer). Cheers! --RoadAhead 04:38, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
Which is why I said that we can put the disclaimer in there. But apparently that isn't satisfactory to you either. --vi5in 16:29, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
Which is when WP:VERIFY violation occurs and we become guilty of WP:ILIKEIT and the fallacy of "appealing to authority". --RoadAhead 18:08, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

While deciding if BBC is a valid source, please start contributing to the sandbox with non-BBC sources. Thank you. --Enzuru 05:13, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Please see my comment about the article and second source in talk for the sandbox.--Sikh-history (talk) 22:38, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Deletion

I don't understand why our sandbox is being deleted? If it's in the wrong place, can you move it? --Enzuru 01:02, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure why either. Perhaps sandboxes aren't allowed in the mainspace? I've moved it here anyhow. --vi5in 02:32, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

References in the talk

  1. ^ Sikhs in Punjab
  2. http://www.southasiaanalysis.org/%5Cpapers20%5Cpaper2000.html
  3. http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=2be0865c-29ba-4dab-9bcc-d945e75007c1
  4. http://news.bbc.co.uk/player/nol/newsid_6570000/newsid_6572600/6572653.stm?bw=bb&mp=rm&news=1&bbcws=1
  5. http://news.bbc.co.uk/player/nol/newsid_6570000/newsid_6572600/6572653.stm?bw=bb&mp=rm&news=1&bbcws=1
  6. http://news.bbc.co.uk/player/nol/newsid_6570000/newsid_6572600/6572653.stm?bw=bb&mp=rm&news=1&bbcws=1
  7. http://news.bbc.co.uk/player/nol/newsid_6570000/newsid_6572600/6572653.stm?bw=bb&mp=rm&news=1&bbcws=1
  8. "Bhindranwale firm on Anandpur move". The Hindustan Times. 1983-09-05.
  9. Sandhu, Ranbir S. (1997-05). "Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale - Life, Mission, and Martyrdom" (PDF). Sikh Educational and Religious Foundation. Retrieved 2008-11-20. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Text "pp. 49" ignored (help)
  10. Jarnail Singh Bhindranwala, in a speech on 11 May 1983
Talk:Sikh religious extremism Add topic