Misplaced Pages

I support a strong encouragement for alt-text, and I think it should be a requirement for images that appear on the main page excerpt. I'm going to drop a note at WT:WPACCESS pointing here as well. –xeno 13:29, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Ok I ran into another point of question in regards to the display of ranks and or ribbons for military folks. Such as the case of Michael P. Murphy or Smedley Butler the Medal of Honor recipients who have ribbons displayed. How does one describe these ribbons and should we have a standard alt text for each so that we don't end up with 50 different descriptions for the same medal or ribbon. This also applies to the rank insignia where displayed. Its relatively easy to describe a four star general but a bit more difficult to describe the insignia worn by the navy to designate a career field. --Kumioko (talk) 18:30, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

I suggest putting recommended alt text on the image page, especially for often used images such as those. Ealdgyth - Talk 18:40, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

I wonder if some technical wizardry could be devised to allow alt-text to be provided on the image description page for these oft-used images. –xeno 18:42, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Recommendation: I would like to recommend that as we implement this we start with the image itself. If we create a standard alt text for an image then a bot, AWB or even a human can ensure that the alt text is 1)associated with the picture and 2)is consistent from article to article for that picture. I admit that it may require a modification to the way that comments are associated to images however I think this is the easiest way that allows us to present a clean and consistent alt text to the readers and editors while at the same time minimizing the manual editing required. If we can come up with a standard wau to document the alt text for an image it shoudl be relatively easy to create a script or bot to populate said image with alt text.--Kumioko (talk) 18:42, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

See File:Moh right.gif as an example. --Kumioko (talk) 18:55, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

I've asked at VPT if it would be possible for such a solution to allow the alt-text to automatically be included if not provided when an image is used. See WP:VPT. –xeno 19:06, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, thats a good idea. I added the above recommendation to the Alt text talk page. --Kumioko (talk) 19:11, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Semms to me that this change to the criteria wasn't really well thought out. The alt text clearly ought to be associated with an image, not with the use of an image in an article. --Malleus Fatuorum 19:11, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Disagree with this, whether or not the "alt text requirement" goes ahead. The appropriate alt-text for an image depends on context; this image of Lindsay Lohan wearing a Gucci hat would warrant totally different descriptions in its two different Misplaced Pages usages; in Gucci, the text would focus on the design of the hat and the person wearing it would be irrelevant, whereas in Lindsay Lohan it would describe the person wearing it with just a passing mention of the hat. – iridescent 19:10, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

I don't think that's the case, as the alt text is simply describing the picture. It may require different captions, of course, but not different alt text. --Malleus Fatuorum 19:15, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Malleus. The description of the photo would seemingly stay the same, while the caption would change. I don't think that means the alt text idea is ill-conceived, however. I think that means we are still learning to write alt text - a different point entirely. Some people are still learning to write "professionally" and that has been part of the criteria for a while now. :) Awadewit (talk) 19:23, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Although I can see that in specific circumstances the image can depend on the context I think that more than 90% of the time a standard desciption of the image itself is sufficient. If the editor feels like it doesn't adequently describe the image based on the context then by all means change it but I think we should have a basis from which to implement this editorial nightmare. --Kumioko (talk) 19:19, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Absolutely agree. --Malleus Fatuorum 19:22, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Lindsay may not be the best example to use, as she was just the result my my clicking "random page" to find an image used on multiple articles. Take for example the multiple "terrace house" photos in Noel Park (which I went through and alt-textified as an exercise last week) – in the context of this article (showing the subtle differences between the five different styles of design) they need to include descriptions of architectural details, while in most other usage "row of red brick houses" would be sufficient. Additionally, the alt text is used to describe similarities (for instance, between the church and the village hall), which would make no sense if the images were used in separate articles. – iridescent 19:25, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

As commented at the VPT page, if this functionality were available, it should also be able to be overridden by explicitly providing it when calling the image. I think the merits of the technical proposal should be discussed at VPT, fwiw. –xeno 19:29, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

(bloody EC)Comment: I am late to this discussion because I have been very busy in real life (swine 'flu). But I have noticed that Eubulides has been requesting the incorporation of alt texts at FACs, and the change to the FA criteria. So, I added alternative texts to Rotavirus and, for some images, to Virus, (comments welcome). The problem that I discovered is that "a picture is worth a thousand words". So, whom are these alternative texts for; those readers with slow modems, those with less than good eyesight or those who use clever speech programmes? Perhaps, it is all of these. I think the community needs some guidance on how to write them. Graham Colm 19:22, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Primarily screen readers, but the other examples as well. People who browse with images off, etc. See Misplaced Pages:Alternate text for images. –xeno 19:30, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

They do not seem that difficult to write, and in esoteric science articles they might even be better than the legend! But, as Colin once wrote, the art of good writing is in knowing your audience. Graham Colm 19:46, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

On further reflection, I support this in principle because, (sorry for the POV) it will make scientists such as me look at our images more discerningly and not assume a knowledge of scale, anatomy, viruses, molecular biology, microbiology, chemistry and so on and so forth. But, I accept that it might be difficult to maintain WP:NPOV for photographs of people doing, well, what people do. Graham Colm 20:02, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

The difficulty in writing alt text is exactly that: making it descriptive and easy to understand without being verbose or using POV language and original research. Dabomb87 (talk) 23:03, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Also jumping in late here... I strongly support this proposal. Alt text is very important for accessibility, and it's not that hard to add. I would be fine with the additional proposal above to specify default alt-text for an image that can be overridden in an article. --Alynna (talk) 12:45, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Alt text viewer tool

I through the alt viewer quickly together after I noticed that Ruff had alt description but the syntax was wrong (|alt = instead of |alt=). It works like the other tools. Could throw together a short description for unfamiliar editors to use the tool, to replace the placeholder text. I'd do it myself, but typically confusion arises. — Dispenser 17:17, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Well done thanks.--Kumioko (talk) 17:42, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Objection to this

I would like to remove the requirement to provide alt text in FAs. It is yet another stylistic burden on FA writers, and there are already too many. It is getting to the point where the prospect of submitting an article for FA is something of a depressing prospect, and anything that makes that even worse should be avoided. SlimVirgin 08:38, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

As the above discussion illustrates, alt text typically requires little extra work compared to what else needs to be done to create an FA, and it can markedly improve accessibility to visually impaired readers. Do you have specific examples of why alt text would be an undue burden? Eubulides (talk) 09:04, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

When I added it at the recent FAR at your request, I found it an enormous pain, and that was only for three images. I would hate to have to go through an article with a lot of images figuring out how to describe certain types of architecture, or "man with a wig looking to his left" to describe Immanuel Kant. You described Clare College, Cambridge as a nondescript three-storey building :). I can't say I blame you because what else is there to say, but it's hardly accurate.

I really find these of very questionable value, and as I said, even if they were the best thing since sliced bread, I'd still say please don't add any more style issues to the FA criteria. The editors who want these can add them to FAs themselves, surely. SlimVirgin 09:13, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Alt text has little value to sighted readers with graphical browsers, of course; it's designed more for visually impaired people who use screen readers and the like. The alt text you added to Bernard Williams at FAR contained 104 words total, for four images. I'm sorry that you found this an enormous pain, but with a little practice most editors find that it's not that much work. Perhaps it would help to say that alt text is supposed to be functional rather than perfect, and that it should be brief? Eubulides (talk) 09:43, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

I also oppose making alt text mandatory at FA reviews or anywhere else. The discussion so far has focussed on "photographic" images, with the exception of one map. Alt text for diagrams would often be a nightmare, for example File:Arthropod head problem 01.png would need alt text almost as long and complex as a summary of the Arthropod head problem, File:Mollusc generalized.png would need alt text about as long as the description of basic mollusc anatomy, File:Porifera cell types 01.png would need alt text about as long as the description of sponges' cell types - and if it proved possible to make the alt text more concise in these diagrams, the effort required would exceed that required to compose the corresponding article content text. I'm sure there are other types of image and types of article where alt text is unlikely to be helpful at all unless it is very long or ridiculous amounts of effort are expended. --Philcha (talk) 09:55, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Even for "photographic" images, alt text often cannot help users with visual difficulties, slow connections,etc. In the example Eubulides cited (09:43, 4 August 2009), alt text text for pic of Bernard Williams, the description of his clothes is irrelevant as this pic aims to identify an individual, and for that you need a few dozen features peculiar to an individual and often hard to describe in words rather than by measurements (e.g. "centres of eyes X cm apart and Ycm below crown of head, nose Z cm long, etc., and goodness knows how one handles colours of eyes, hair , complexion, etc.). The RNIB recommends "picture of X" for a simple example - whihc is mor erelevant, but not informative. As far as I can see, the proponents of alt text have not done the hard work of reviewing and commenting publicly on hundreds of diverse examples. --Philcha (talk) 10:08, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

(ec) There are two separable issues here, E. First, the issue of helping readers: is there any evidence that it actually helps visually impaired people? And secondly, the issue of helping editors. No matter how helpful another style addition might be, we are literally sinking under the weight of these requirements. That we only have 2,000 or so FAs out of however many million articles is illustrative of it. Seriously, my heart sinks when I think of bringing an article to FA, even though I love writing, I enjoy writing WP articles, I love improving them, I love to see them complete and professional-looking, but I feel myself losing what is left of my mind at the thought of bringing them to FA. So, really, this is a plea for mercy. SlimVirgin 09:56, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Regarding Philcha's point, I agree very much. I couldn't see the point of removing more informative descriptions of Cambridge colleges and a man punting on the River Cam, in favor of "three-storey building, man in a boat with a stick." I can't see how that helps anyone. It felt like a make-work project. I should add that I don't mean to sound disrespectful to the people who want this, because obviously you're trying to help readers, which is clearly commendable. I just question whether this really is helping, and I also don't want to see a small number of readers helped at the expense of the straw-that-broke-the-camel's-back for FA writers. SlimVirgin 10:26, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Slim, can you please stop bitching. If this stylistic requirement is causing you to "drown" figuratively, that's rather sad, but it's your issue. It takes no time to add halfway decent alt text, and I hardly expect FAR will be filled with articles that don't meet this criteria--anyone can add it, it requires no special knowledge of the topic. Trying to suggest that we should lower FA requirements isn't going to win over anyone here. If you don't want to do the work, no one's forcing you to. --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs 12:00, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

I tend to agree with David. I'm recently much less gung ho about getting articles to FA, but not because of the amount of work that goes into the article. I'm still constructing articles with FA criteria in mind. Every several months I go read over the articles that were promoted to FA previously, including the ones that have appeared on the main page. They need dusting off and prose tweaking occasionally because standards rise. I like that. I'm glad visually impaired folks will have an opportunity to understand the images in an article, even Museum of Bad Art. --Moni3 (talk) 12:16, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

(ec) But the point is that people are trying to force it. The editors who want the alt text are free to add it themselves, but what has happened here is that others are being required to add it whether they want to or not. That's the point I'm objecting to—objecting, mind you, not "bitching". No need for that kind of response, David. SlimVirgin 12:17, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

When you're involved, Slimmy, it's basically my stock response. Guess what: the FA criteria have always been a set of standards many editors don't agree with. If you don't, then don't participate in the FAC process, because you're going to have people picking apart your articles and making sure they adhere to standards. News flash: this is nothing new. --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs 12:20, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Why is there a need to be so rude? This is a perfectly legitimate objection. SlimVirgin 12:24, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Is there a difference between, say, alt text and inline citations? Or strict image policy adherence? Is there not value in strengthening criteria and setting high standards? --Moni3 (talk) 12:26, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

(Response to David) In case you haven't noticed, many editors have already stopped trying to meet these criteria, many of which don't actually make a better article for the reader. It's been my own observation that FAs have become more formulaic and less interesting. While they aren't poorly written, one that has brilliant prose, is engaging and motivates the reader to click the links, is an exception rather than the rule - although they do tend to have their m-dashes in all the right places. I'd been looking forward to returning to work in this area now that my external obligations had lessened, but reading recent FACs and their reviews has left me feeling unmotivated. Risker (talk) 12:29, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Many of us put a lot of a time into reviewing articles for sourcing, images, comprehensiveness, and prose. Good to know that this is being ignored and forgotten and that all people remember is the MOS review. Awadewit (talk) 12:34, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Moni, it's just a question of it being yet one more style thing for FA writers to adhere to. Citing sources is obviously needed and is policy; ditto with images. But alt text isn't policy, and isn't required by the MoS. Yet somehow it has managed to be added here as a stipulation. It's also not clear that it actually helps anyone, which is why some evidence of that would be appreciated. I think it needs to be removed from here and discussed at MoS level. SlimVirgin 12:34, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Why do individual editors stop trying to get FAs? Is it because of endashes and alt text? Is it because we're starting to demand something better than GoogleBooks and the top 10 hits on a search engine? These are generalities that cannot be attributed to an alt text requirement. If the only thing editors had to do to get an FA was to add alt text, I figure a bunch of editors would be swarming to get FAs. SlimVirgin seems to be saying that alt text is a breaking straw over a foundation of many criteria. What the straw falls atop is a (what I hope is) a strong foundation of superior sourcing and brilliant writing. That takes weeks and months to do. I spent 2 days filling in alt text for 14 FAs. --Moni3 (talk) 12:38, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

I know that one of the reasons editors stop submitting FACs is because of the increasingly strict style requirements. I'm all for style consistency within an article, and good sourcing. But there is an intense focus on style at FA, contrasted with very little focus on the writing or the substance of the content; the latter is harder to do, so naturally there's less of it, but still people feel they have to inject something, so the style issues are often piled on. I'm not arguing against what's already in place; it's part of the culture now, and it probably can't be changed easily. What I am arguing is that we shouldn't make it worse. We especially shouldn't add criteria that aren't required by the MoS, aren't policy, and haven't been widely discussed. Alt text has nothing to do with superior sourcing and brilliant writing. It's exactly the kind of thing that might put a brilliant writer off.

In addition, and this is a separate issue, it's not at all clear that the way we're required to write the alt texts is at all helpful or informative. Who is helped, who is educated, by being told that, in Immanuel Kant, there is an image of a man in a wig looking downwards and to his right? SlimVirgin 12:54, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

<reset>Editors not trying for FAs: On one hand we should stop speculating why editors don't try for FAs and find out, but on the other hand the stringent criteria weeds out editors who are not devoted to maintaining and improving their articles. Until I see a report with data indicating why editors are not trying to get FAs, I'm not going to take FA talk page observations as Gospel. The objections I've seen to the FAC process either turns editors away forever, or strengthens them to improve themselves and their articles. I think that's a valuable fork and a decision editors have to make.

Alt text: I suppose it remains to be seen how visually impaired readers are assisted. I'm not (that) visually impaired, so I guess we would need some input from readers who are. --Moni3 (talk) 13:01, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

@Slim: If any "brilliant" writer is put off by having to describe an image or two to a disabled viewer, he or she is a lazy moron. Brilliance doesn't cut it if you aren't willing to do any work, and if you can't spend another five minutes on improving an article, you aren't going to survive the FAC process anyhow. Just let it drop, and go crawl back to whatever hole you spend your wikidays in, please. --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs 13:43, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

I really don't see any need to adopt that kind of insulting tone David. I've certainly become more reluctant to submit articles recently, but it's nothing to do with alt text. SlimVirgin asks a valid question nevertheless. Does alt text (as it's being written now) really help the visually impaired or not? --Malleus Fatuorum 13:47, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Borderline article / list?

As part of a merge proposal a featured list is being merged with an article. The question has arisen as to whether the result (which would probably look a bit like this sandbox version) is a list or an article. Any eyes on this matter and comments here would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance, Rambo's Revenge (talk) 15:12, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

I also have a couple that walk a line between list and article. Here are a couple Commandant of the Marine Corps, Sergeant Major of the Marine Corps Assistant Commandant of the Marine Corps and Marine Corps Brevet Medal. The Commandant of the Marine Corps and Sergeant Major of the Marine Corps have been previously approved as featured lists because the majority of the article is list info but in my opinion it walks a line between the two. I guess my question here is should these be considered Lists, Articles or can they be both? --Kumioko (talk) 13:54, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

In cases like these, I say to call it whatever you want it to be. For Commandant of the Marine Corps, judging by the title it's technically an article with a list in it; it's just not long enough to warrant a split to List of Commandants of the Marine Corps. If it had more information about the position, it could very well be a featured article. President of the United States is an article and List of Presidents of the United States is a list, but what if there wasn't enough information and we didn't want to split? Then you can make it what you want. Reywas92 00:34, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Copyright detection tool

Would anyone happen to know of any tools that check the copyright status of images here in a manner similar to the ones already in use for the FAC process to check for dead external links and dab links? And if we don't have any tools of this nature, would you happen to know anyone to whom I could suggest such a tool if it has not already been suggested? TomStar81 (Talk • Some say ¥€$, I say NO) 02:54, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure you could create an automated tool that would catch any kind of nuance needed for checking status of images. It's a dirty job that has to be done by hand. --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs 03:48, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

What I am getting at is more along the lines of having such images in an article so that we know to locate them and check by hand. If you've got an article that has 30 images most people are only going to check 1 or 2 images before assuming they are all free, and if there is a copyrighted image in there somewhere the folks checking the article may not get a chance to check the image to ensure all copyrighted images are correctly filled out. What I am looking for is not so much a tool that will check the fields as I am a tool that will check for a copyright template or fair use tag and report that to the reviewers so they know to check the image to ensure everything is correctly filled in. Ideally, I was hoping that we would have a tool somewhere like the external links checker that could list all images in an article and highlight the ones that may need to be manually checked. TomStar81 (Talk • Some say ¥€$, I say NO) 04:33, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

I dunno if anybody has heard... TinEye reverse image search engine is a good tool for finding copyright violations. You only need the url to check all the images on the page. It finds any images that match any parts the image you pick, its pretty good. It has been used to expose hoaxed paranormal photos. In essence, if you get back results that match the sources exactly, you almost certainly have a copied image. Whether the source is a copyvio or not is another question one must ascertain using other factors. --ErgoSum•talk•trib 04:47, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

I was thinking about writing one, but when I did the research I found that other people were developing bot that would help. I'm not sure what it would do other than display images thumbnails with the copyright icons or fair use rational. — Dispenser 12:13, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

For projects like ours that usually deal with free images exclusively it would be nice to know when copyrighted images are being used so we can determine whether they need to be in the article or not. I don't make a point to check for copyright status, but I got to thinking that if we could do that at milhist for our ACR process then it would further reduce the amount of work FAC people would have to do. TomStar81 (Talk • Some say ¥€$, I say NO) 14:27, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Every dablink

I would like to note to tool reviewers about the toolbox at the top of this page. This toolbox differs from review sub pages in that the results are from every page listed. Dablinks benefits the most from such large sweeps as it avoid needless clicks and loading. When the results are done you can open up the sub pages and alert authors to the problem. Also, I might be working on a tool that'll quicken disambiguation. — Dispenser 15:11, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Proposed changes to <ref> tag_tag-2009-07-14T17:56:00.000Z">

I thought that other quality content editors might like to see and contribute to the poll going on at Wikipedia_talk:Citing_sources#Straw_Poll_on_modifying_.3Cref.3E.

In a nutshell, the contributors are discussing options whereby the references are all placed at the foot of an article.

Anyone who uses inline citation a lot, like Featured Article writers and copyeditors, should at least review this, if not voice an opinion. --Dweller (talk) 17:56, 14 July 2009 (UTC)_tag"> _tag">

Nomination not closed properly

The nomination for Magdalena Neuner was removed from the FAC page, however it was not closed correctly. Both the FAC archive and the article's talk page still show it as a candidate. EnemyOfTheState_|talk 22:00, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

The last bits of the archiving are handled by a bot, which usually runs on the weekend and on Tuesdays. It'll catch the article the next time it runs. Ealdgyth - Talk 22:09, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

See WP:FAC/ar. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:35, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Discussion at FAR

Please see Misplaced Pages talk:Featured article review#Changes to instructions. Participation at FAR is seriously lagging (I'm guilty: I used to work a lot there, but haven't had time lately, while I have noticed an increase in FAs delisted). Based on recent changes to the page instructions (which I reverted, as discussion is needed), the page seems to be changing from a place where many editors worked together to improve articles to a place where delisting is almost assumed. Broader discussion and review of this trend is needed; the proposed changes to long-standing FAR nomination instructions may lead the direction of encouraging multiple driveby nominations at FAR, with limited incentive for editors to work towards saving and improving FAs. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:35, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Plea

I'm officially begging for some people to go through the list in the next couple days and provide some thorough reviews. Many of the noms have drive-by reviews that pick out little things, but the vast majority are missing any kind of comprehensive review. I just reviewed one that has sat there for almost a month without attention to even basic MoS issues. Por favor, per favore, bitte, I'll buy you some Krispy Kremes. --Andy Walsh (talk) 17:01, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Are you referring to FAC or FAR? If the latter, I urge you to read User:YellowMonkey's carefully considered comments at Misplaced Pages talk:Featured article review#Changes_to_instructions. Regards, —Mattisse (Talk) 17:11, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm referring to FAC. --Andy Walsh (talk) 17:18, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, never mind then. Why do you have this new name? It is confusing! (Are you trying it out before making the big switch?) —Mattisse (Talk) 17:29, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

I don't think I'll switch... I was just inspired by a rash of people using their actual names on the site. I didn't stop to consider that it might be confusing, so I do apologize for that. --Andy Walsh (talk) 17:39, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

I dunno - am I even welcome to comment? I don't know the MOS like the back of my hand like many do, so I'm not sure I could say anything that would add to what's been said. I tend to have lower standards than most of the "veterans" here, so while I might think something meets criteria, another may not. It makes me look foolish if I support something, then another comes along and points out several obvious flaws - that I missed simply because there is so much to consider. I've commented occasionally on FACs (including, I believe the one you mentioned) but rarely do because I feel my comments are simply inferior and unnecessary. Majorly talk 17:31, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Pish. Your comments are as worthy as anyone else's. Grammar wonks pay attention to grammar. Science geeks pay attention to science. I've been known to use wrackspurts as inspiration to make comments on an article. If it doesn't seem right, or something seems off, or it creates questions that it does not answer, then I state them in my comments. Although I admit when I first started watching FAC, I was slow to jump in for the same reasons you state. Since then I have been a regular commenter. Now, however, I sheepishly admit that I haven't taken a gander at an FAC for weeks or months. I have to get back in the swing. --Moni3 (talk) 17:35, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Seconded. I hope I didn't come across as impugning anyone's feedback—that was far from my intent. As Moni pointed out, most people look at certain aspects of the article. I tend to look mostly at prose, while others focus on images, sources, and so on. It takes a village to raise an FA, har har. --Andy Walsh (talk) 17:39, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

(ec) Moni is right of course. Reviewing is about building a consensus, it is not about looking clever, (or foolish). Graham. Graham Colm 17:40, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm out of breakfast food. Awadewit (talk) 17:44, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

! That looks like a really dry text from last night. Deliciously random. --Moni3 (talk) 17:45, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

I just can't keep it in stock. Awadewit (talk) 02:51, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

It's worth pointing out that if articles are thoroughly prepared before their FAC nomination they will need less attention at FAC. The extent of FAC comments isn't necessarily an indication of the review attention the article has received – some have had thorough workovers at PR, for example. For me, PR is the boiler room, FAC the finishing school – but it often doesn't work that way. Brianboulton (talk) 08:49, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

I wish it were more often so. As it is, the first thing I do before reviewing an FAC is check to see if it went through PR. If I see that you or a handful of others have gone through it at PR, I exhale heavily knowing that the article is far more likely to be up to par (assuming they've acted on your suggestions). --Andy Walsh (talk) 15:24, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

I've never taken an article to PR, and don't entirely see the point of it, but that's just me I guess. :-) --Malleus Fatuorum 16:17, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Peer review, is, to say the least, beneficial to some, and not to others. Just like rest, it makes some people galvanized and some people grouchy. :) Malleus, you are one of the most prolific writers around here anyway. ceranthor 16:24, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

They are understaffed, for sure. Malleus, most editors don't have rainbows of perfect prose shooting out of their arse fingers. They need some help before coming to FAC. --Andy Walsh (talk) 16:55, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Malleus' familiar. --Moni3 (talk) 16:58, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

That's not my familiar, that's me. --Malleus Fatuorum 17:09, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

How to make PR work: WP:FCDW/March 17, 2008. (Someone please give me a hint on the breakfast food.) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:15, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Sadly, PR is more of a failure than FAC. For every two people that I've had review a page that sat there for a month at FAC, I had half of one to perform a peer review. The only time I had any serious reviews (even from regulars) at FAC was once. The other times, I've had less than 3 serious reviews. Ottava Rima (talk) 04:47, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

I can't work that out, but PR is not a failure, although its usefulness is hampered by shortage of reviewers prepared to spend time there, so many articles don't get the detailed treatment they need. It is unglamorous, out of the limelight, not the place for showponies or cleverdicks. The answer is for more people to spend more time there; that would benefit both PR and FAC. Brianboulton (talk) 10:57, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

I think characterising editors who choose not to get involved at PR as "showponies or cleverdicks" is rather unkind. The reason I choose not to get involved is that there's no closure at PR, unlike GAN and FAC, it just seems like busy work to no real benefit. --Malleus Fatuorum 16:42, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm not characterising anyone as anything – that remark was lighthearted. But I am sad that you see "no real benefit" in the time spent at PR. Is it really of no benefit that at least some articles reach FAC in a far better state than they would otherwise? Without PR there would be many more inappropriate FAC nominations, and many more of those article-building marathons that so clutter the page. I have only been fully active at PR for six months or so, but in that time I have seen several articles I saw being built at peer review from very raw beginnings go through the FAC process successfully; plenty of benefit (and reward) in that. Brianboulton (talk) 21:07, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Fine, then continue your good work at PR. My point quite simply is that I see see no reason to be abusive towards those of us who choose to spend our time elsewhere. --Malleus Fatuorum 23:11, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

I think you should lighten up – it was a facetious comment, and I apologise if you felt targeted by it. I also think this conversation should end. Brianboulton (talk) 23:24, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

It is not for you to decide when a conversation should end. If I had called you a "showpony", or a "cleverdick" I would have been blocked for "incivility". Again. --Malleus Fatuorum 23:41, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps we can return to this discussion when there aren't any FACs. :) Awadewit (talk) 23:45, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Malleus, I know nothing of your past record of incivility and have no wish to compete with you over this. It is abundantly clear that I have not called you or any other editor by these names, and I have apologised for any perceived insult. But, as you wish the discussion to continue, before you say anything else just consider your edit, above: "I've never taken an article to PR, and don't entirely see the point of it, but that's just me I guess. :-)" Can't you see how offensive it is (especially the smiley face) for editors who spend dozens of hours at PR every week trying to help knock articles into FAC-shape, to have their efforts diminished in this way? There may be a few gifted prose writers (I'm certainly not one) who can spin prose effortlessly and whose articles don't need much attention before coming here, and others who can call on networks of associates for help. There are, however, many whose best hope of developing their work to featured class is through the PR process, and it is those we try to serve, however imperfectly. The benefit for FAC may be largely unseen, but is considerable. If you are satisfied that your own work doesn't need this process, that's OK, but I would ask you to show more respect for what it is trying to do. The last word is yours, if you wish to take it. Brianboulton (talk) 12:13, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

It's hot down here in the boiler room. Finetooth (talk) 19:55, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Presumably a result of all the hard work I see being done? Graham. Graham Colm 21:09, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Image review needed

• Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Volcano (South Park)/archive1
• Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Hepatorenal syndrome/archive1

SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:40, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Done. NW (Talk) 04:33, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

NPG images

Does anyone know if we have (or should have) a policy regarding the use of Those Images at FA level? My personal opinion is that, although the morality of the way the images were acquired was rather dubious, the NPG images are generally higher quality than those available elsewhere, and if the WMF are satisfied that the legal challenge is without foundation and the images are free-use, we ought to be using the best available image regardless of how it came to be acquired. (I suppose the ethical equivalent would be living in a house originally built by slave labor, or present-day doctors using procedures derived from Mengele's experiments.) However, there are obvious negatives in that there's a potential that the images could all suddenly vanish; that increased use of the images in high-profile could increase the WMF's liability if it does wind up in court; and that a disputed image could wind up on the main page and lead to a further flurry of adverse publicity.

Although it's only a small number of images, because the NPG collection contains large numbers of bishops, military figures and politicians, it will have a disproportionate effect on FAs. – iridescent 15:45, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

The images have not been deleted and their copyright is, from the Foundation's legal standpoint, solid. We should retain them. We should not start removing these images from articles under the mere threat of NPG action or their dislike of us using the images. Awadewit (talk) 15:48, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

I wasn't so much thinking of deleting them, as whether they should be added (most of them were only uploaded in May). As per my comments above, I tend to agree with you – as long as the WMF accepts the license we should be using them as they're generally better quality than the alternatives – but potentially unfree images at FAC generally create a disproportionate amount of sound & light. (The particular situation that set this line of thought off is Mandell Creighton, which I'm shortly going to start rewriting; while there are two undisputed images already in the article, the NPG images include a much better quality image. There's no point adding it if it's just going to set off a lengthy editwar and a 100kb thread at any potential GAC/FAC, so I wanted to clear the situation up first.) – iridescent 16:23, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

I would definitely include them - there is no reason not to at this point - and they are free, in my opinion. :) Awadewit (talk) 16:41, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

The NPG images should be included when they are better. Certainly the Foundation is on strong legal ground. As for the ethical issue, this is not like the slave-labor house at all. A better analogy would be the people who sheltered fugitive slaves in the north before the U.S. Civil War, despite legal threats by southerners. Eubulides (talk) 17:49, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Is there a corollary to Godwin's Law? I feel like this discussion about slavery might fit that, if there were. Let's leave the analogy alone, as it really does not apply at all here. There is no life and death situation for anyone involved here. Awadewit (talk) 17:54, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Over-referencing is now a big problem

There's an increasing trend towards bunging in references (usually the same one) at the end of just about every sentence. This is unacceptable practice throughout the publishing industry, and for the same reason should be here too. In Ralph Bakshi, a particularly bad example, I saw 25 of Ref 11 in a row, sentence after sentence. How to irritate our readers for no benefit.

Generally, one reference at the end will cover most or all of a paragraph, if that paragraph runs smoothly and contains no contentious statements (which require a separate ref.).

I suspect wall-to-wall ref. numbers saves people from the decision-making required to ration down referencing to something that balances utility with precise sourcing. In this respect, it resembles smart linking, where we avoid the scattergun approach. Tony (talk) 08:58, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Unlike most of the "publishing industry", Misplaced Pages is the encyclopedia anyone can edit. Thus, anyone can go and later insert new information (happens all the time) into a Misplaced Pages article and thus destroying the connection between the sourcing and the sentence. Having citations at every sentence helps reduce the chances of this happen, which tends not to be a problem with print sources or non-open web sources. So not only is there a benefit, the comparison to the "publishing industry" is not entirely comparable. Aboutmovies (talk) 09:22, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

For Albert, Prince Consort, I put the extra citations in as hidden comments: such as <!-- reference -->. DrKiernan (talk) 09:43, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Tony's right. There's no need to repeat the same reference for adjacent sentences. One reference at the end of the paragraph is enough. Misplaced Pages is primarily for readers, not for editors; and the unnecessary references waste readers' time. Eubulides (talk) 09:45, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

A different but related problem is over-specificity in citations. If a given fact is provided on page n of a book, and another fact is given on page n+1, these tend to be given as two separate references. This is, IMO, one extreme end of the WP:V scale (where the other end is lack of in-line citations, merely giving a bibliography at the end). Some good sense is, I feel, required here; so that we trust the readers ability to scan, say, 5–10 pages—or even a whole chapter—of a book to find the information, instead of specifying that it's in the second clause of the fifth sentence in the third paragraph on page n in the book. Iff we had a citation system (in the Cite.php sense, not the Harvard sense) that tagged whole sentences or clauses to identify they're source, and an editing mechanic that preserved this association transparently, then I might lean to extreme precision; but not with the current referencing system. Incidentally, I've participated in FAC reviews where a reviewer complained of an excessive number of references (not per sentence/para; the sheer number of lines down in the References section!), but at the same time I meet substantial resistance to attempts to combine references along the lines above (merge adjacent pages into one ref). In other words, I think this thread is quite timely, and that it'd be worthwhile to do some more thinking on this issue (references in general, not my particular little pet opinion here). --Xover (talk) 09:46, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

I'd generally agree with Xover, with two exceptions. One is that the exact page number (if applicable) should be given for direct quotations. Also, if a fact is in an unexpected part of the source, then a specific description of the location should be given. --Jc3s5h (talk) 09:55, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Aboutmovies, but think DrKiernan's solution might be a good one. --Dweller (talk) 09:56, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

I've used DrKiernan's solution when working in controversial areas (think Barack Obama; no, even worse than that, think Chiropractic), but it's pretty much a waste of time in articles that are not battlegrounds. As for citing exact page numbers, please see #Specific citations below. Eubulides (talk) 10:08, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

I can see the following reasons for "over-citing" (there may be others):

• To handle switching between sources, e.g. (A says) this is the general pattern but (B says) there are significant exceptions; in another aspect (A says) this is the general pattern but (C says) there are significant exceptions. I see no alternative to frequent citations here.
• To prevent interpolations by other editors from breaking the connection between source and text. This is almost a variation on the previous one, especially if we get lucky and the interpolation comes with a citation.
• Over-fussy reviewers.
• Long-term I think the best solution would be an enhancement to Mediawiki so that, if it sees 2 or more identical citations (including named ones) it rolls them up into one, placed at the endf the sequence or para, which ever ends first. --Philcha (talk) 11:08, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

• Agree with Philcha. I am so used to seeing the little blue subscripts I tune them out. A show/hide switch for inline refs would be great for casual readers. I have gotten tired of {{cn} tags being slapped on things, but I do like DrK's hidden refs alot. Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:53, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

• Repeating the same reference within a paragraph without other intervening references is simply wrong: one citation at the end of the paragraph is appropriate. However, if a paragraph is based on a secondary source, cited at the end of the paragraph, but includes quotations from a primary source available online, it's useful to provide a citation at each quotation or specific allusion to the primary source. This can then lead to a demand for a secondary source for the section before each primary citation, hence repetition of the same secondary source. Don't think there's an easy way around that. It's also awkward when a source is cited numerous times using the ref name= tag: after about four uses, it gets very hard to decide whether to click e or f to get back to the inline citation. Where that's happening, more specific references to page numbers can reduce the problem. In both cases, the problem isn't over-referencing, it's repetitive use of the same reference. Always, it's a judgement call. . dave souza, talk 14:39, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

It's not wrong, it's exactly how it should be. One statement, one source. If the source used 10 times in a paragraph, good, I want to know it. I want to be able to verify everything with the least possible ammount of effort. "Jim was born in Spain in 1024." Oh was he? Got a source? "He was an cloistered monk." Oh was he? Got a source? If you only put one at the end of the entire "Jim was born in England in 1024. He was an cloistered monk.", then when another editor comes in and says "Jim was born in England in 1024. He was ordained priest at the age of 13, but resigned due to a crisis of faith at age 17. He then became a cloistered monk." Now you have new statement, which looks to be supported by the citation at the end of the paragraphs, but that might not necessarily be the case since its a new editor, and you don't know where S/HE got his statement from. So cite everything, every idea, every pebble that you can possibly cite, and be as specific as possible. If it's on a new page, then make a new citation with that new page. (Or instead give a page range that covers the whole thing). If you give me a book's page number, I have to assume you meant that it's on that page.

We want to build bullet-proof articles, who can be verified and corrected with the greatest of ease. One statement, one reference. Headbomb {_{κοντριβς} – WP Physics} 23:15, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

I understand where you're coming from, since I often have to revert junk edits which suggest legitimacy by being followed by a source, but the fact is that our citation methods take us space and reduce legibility. It's extra work for us to keep track of what's being cited, but in the interest of readers it's best to use as few refs calls as possible. It makes them mean more, in my opinion. --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs 23:34, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Look on the bright side, at least these wee links are less intrusive than the classic Harvard referencing style (Chambers 1987) still used in many scholarly books. It's worthwhile thinking about how to combine or minimise the number of citation links, but the priority is easy referencing. (Confession – I made that reference up) . . dave souza, talk 08:11, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

• "One statement, one source" I demanded the same for things that would seem unusual or specific and it was shot down by overwhelming consensus in response to my argument. The consensus is that if a source is used, it covers all preceding comments within that paragraph and all quotes must be directly sourced afterward. Ottava Rima (talk) 18:00, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

I'd like to note that when I've approached editors about this problem, they usually state that the over-referencing exists because they "were told to do it" or someone challenged them for under-referencing. It's one of those areas where editors and, more to the point, GA and FA seekers get mixed messages from reviewers. I think DrKiernan's solution is a great one, but I'm also wary of asking editors to do extra work to satiate reference-lust. At FAR, you see comments like "some paragraphs only have one citation" all the time. The solution is to adjust our comments in the venues where content is vetted (Peer Review, GAN, FAC) and make sure we are sending consistent messages. When someone correctly comments that there are too many references, we need to back them up. If someone wrongly asks for more, we need to educate them. --Andy Walsh (talk) 18:13, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Specific citations

• For books, a citation to the book chapter suffices, particularly in fields where most books are online and you can just do an online search. Maybe for dusty-book fields like 19th-century English lit one might have to go to page numbers, or cite specific column numbers in papyri, or whatever.
• Come to think of it, maybe we should add a new template for that? Something like "{{cite papyrus |name=Oxyrhynchus |fragment=P.Oxy.XX 2260 |column=i |line=20 |word=4}}", perhaps? And in case you think I'm making this up, please see an image of the papyrus column in question, with that word being the first one of the phrase circled in red.
• Hey! Maybe we should require this sort of thing for all citations! Isn't this what WP:V is all about? If you can't say something like "I'm citing W word from X location of Y manuscript, which is in Z drawer in V room in the Sackler Library, Oxford" then your citation is not being specific enough!

Eubulides (talk) 10:08, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

The latter clause of that isn't quite as ridiculous as it may at first sound. In Shakespeare studies, for example, it's often interesting to know that, e.g., the Malone papers are in a given library and collection, and what part of that collection it's in, as well as its internal call numer in the collection. For some edge cases where it's more appropriate to cite the primary source (typically for quotes, or even comparative quotes) this would be quite usefull, even if not quite critical in a wider context. This issue is, of course, orthogonal to my original argument. --Xover (talk) 10:42, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Chapters of books vary in length from under 10 to 30-50 - those with longer chapters often break them into sections. So we need some sort of guideline about how large a block of cited pages should be - but it would have to be applied quite flexibly, as natural divisions in the source might vary a lot. --Philcha (talk) 11:01, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Surely it's a matter of context: if a paragraph is cited to one or a few pages in a book, it makes sense to cite that paragraph to those specific pages. Much easier to check when looking back at the book, and so very useful. Many books aren't available online, and even with previews many pages of books aren't included. The alternative of grouping together as one ref name= all the references to a chapter would cause confusion and be much less useful when looking up the reference. . dave souza, talk 14:39, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

As dave souza says, it's a matter of context. However that cuts both ways. For example if you understand the consequences of segmentation, tagmosis and cuticle in arthropods, you understand arthropods - and it's probably helpful to combine the cites of the relevant sections of the source, if they are adjacent. Similarly the three main body forms in sponges may be part of a section on water flow management, and this explains the reasons for the body forms. I think "horses for courses" applies. --Philcha (talk) 10:47, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

From Sandy's talkpage

Statements were copied from User talk:SandyGeorgia and reflect statements as of this diff. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:26, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Hi Sandy, I just wanted to alert you to this, which relates to this. It's a bad precedent that bad-mouthing of a reviewer occur either on the FAC page or elsewhere. We'll lose reviewers easily that way. Tony (talk) 16:15, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Very true. Bullying and badmouthing lost me as a serious reviewer of FAC. Regards, —Mattisse (Talk) 16:53, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Hey Tony, I'm sorry that you were offended. Perhaps a better way of handling your hurt would have been to post on my talk page, or via email, and let us work things out. I don't think I would recommend the route you took, of posting on my talk page that you had "complained" to the two FA delegates, and also posting at length in FAC. Did that make the process regarding this article better or fairer? Did that make me more likely to accept your comments as borne of a genuine desire to improve Misplaced Pages? My comment, which was on another editor's talk page, was born of frustration. Tony, what emotion sparked you to post what you did on the FAC page for the article, and on Karanac's talk page, and on SandyGeorgia's talk page, and then to tell me what you had done? Was that the right thing to do? Think about it please.--Wehwalt (talk) 01:58, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

It is easy to get frustrated with users who state things such as "'Communistic' is not a word I've seen before" without going to the dictionary. A review should be analyzing the work, not just stating things that seem right without checking. It is also bad form to demand blanket copyediting without specifying each and every aspect, as many people's understanding of grammar isn't perfect, and many of the "rules" they cling to are actually just personal taste. Then there are statements like "where there's an "of" to the right, put a "the" to the left", if applied, would make some of the most well written pieces become the most absurd and laughable. "Joseph of Arimathea" would become "the Joseph of the Arimathea". Or, better yet, "Gospel of John" would become "the Gospel of the John" in some of the most absurd instances. I think if people are going to claim some rule about copy editing they be forced to provide a citation. "Of" -rarely- uses a definite or indefinite article. You only use an indefinite or definite article if you are trying to define something as definite or indefinite. Not because there is an "of" in the sentence! I've seen some of the worse things claimed as necessary copy editing and people just don't care. It is one thing to promote the use of proper English, it is another thing to promote the use of something that you basically just made up on your own. Tony, if you aren't able to get the English grammar rules, don't be insulted when someone takes offense to your review. Ottava Rima (talk) 02:23, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Take offence to your review? And you are lecturing me about grammar? Ottava. And you take a rule of thumb about "of" and "the" and twist it to try to make me look foolish. Have you not better things to do than vent your own frustration? Naturally, there are instances where the rule of thumb often does not apply: formal names and titles is one. We have a rule against starting an article or section title with "The", don't we? I suggest you turn your efforts to improving nominations, not throwing mud over a messenger. Tony (talk) 03:05, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes, to. It is -to-. You know, the word that expresses "towards" another object. It is not offense "in", it is not offense "at", it is offense to, logically and grammatically. Your words are a separate entity that he is expressing an idea that follows in a motion based path towards it. That is why -you- don't have any right to put up reviews and then cry about not knowing what the hell you are talking about. You are foolish, just as you are foolish right now. Get over yourself. Your arrogance is destroying this place. Either put up the rules with direct links to verifiable websites to verify it, or stop in general. The reason why I say to put up the rules is that you make up a lot of what you state. I'm tired of people putting up pure bs and opposing over their fake "grammar". Ottava Rima (talk) 13:39, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

It wasn't me who used the word communistic anyway, it was Helen Douglas. I didn't want to do a quote there because it was a paragraph already overburdened with quotes, but I kept that word. My choice of words, even if frustrated, was bad, but the response should not be trying to sink the article and the editor as well. I've had at least three FACs where Tony has come in, made one or two points, and said "go get a copyedit". It's just not enough guidance ...--Wehwalt (talk) 02:32, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

My view: I think people, including myself, are definitely reluctant to post articles to FAC if all reviewers say is "Get a copyedit" and provide a few scant examples of so-called issues with prose. That isn't a review in any real sense of the word. It is especially a problem if the articles has already had multiple copyedits by several editors. Demanding yet more is an unreasonable request, especially if the reviewer will not actually point out the problem, but instead pick "random examples". It's simply not enough. If people are going to review FACs, they should do it thoroughly. On a rare occasion I participate on a FAC, I read the article from top to bottom and list all the things I find an issue, if any. I find this is much more helpful to the nominator than bluntly suggesting an umpteenth copyedit. Majorly talk 02:41, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

That's just about as straw a man as I've ever seen put up. The point of having multiple reviewers at FAC is that they are therefore free to look at whichever aspects of an article they choose. If you want every single fault in an article pointed out by every single reviewer then take it to peer review; FAC is for articles that can reasonably be considered to be the finished product. Those with basic spelling and grammar errors can hardly be considered to be that. Tony has been just as critical of my efforts at FAC as anyone else's, as have others such as Fowler&fowler, but I don't cry foul and take my ball home in a huff. I take their comments to heart and using the examples given I try to address them. What's so hard about that? --Malleus Fatuorum 03:19, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

I might add that it's the quality of the copy-edit that matters, not how many were done before or during FAC. Dabomb87 (talk) 03:50, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

So do I. I got the leading Nixon expert to give the article its GA here and then one of out top FA writers to do the peer review. To be met with an unspecified "get a copyedit" is frustrating.--Wehwalt (talk) 02:48, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

After I saw the kerfuffle I took a look through the article myself, and I also found several examples af areas where the article still needs work. There are no "top FA writers" anyway; many of those with a high FA count have basically written the same article over and over again. --Malleus Fatuorum 03:27, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

I thought in that thread on Mattisse's talk page that you were going to have a run through the article.--Wehwalt (talk) 03:32, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

I agreed that I would, But what has that to do with this discussion? --Malleus Fatuorum 04:02, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

OK. That was last night. You just mentioned after you "saw this kerfuffle", so I was wondering if there were fresh issues.--Wehwalt (talk) 04:15, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

No fresh issues, I meant the kerfuffle at the FAC, not here. --Malleus Fatuorum 04:20, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

That's fine. Looking forward to see what you do with it. So is everyone else!--Wehwalt (talk) 04:24, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

I understand that you're trying to niggle Tony, but why have you apparently decided to start on me as well? --Malleus Fatuorum 04:30, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

No, not what I meant. I just meant that after this mess, which I sparked, a lot rides on the copyedit and all the people in the discussion will be watching. I'd be foolish to want ot "start on" you. Please understand.--Wehwalt (talk) 04:35, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

• We put the scoundrels' defence of "You need to specify every single thing that is wrong" behind us some years ago. Nowadays, a sample of prose issues is quite sufficient to indicate that a whole text needs attention. This is especially the case when the sample comes from the top, which you'd expect would be prepared more carefully since it's so exposed and would show on the main page when the time comes. Likewise, if the first two images are unsatisfory WRT NFC, it is reasonable for a reviewer to ask for a total audit of the images, and to return later to spot-check. Reviewers are busy and it is not their nomination (only their task to keep standards high). "Communistic" is ugly, and one syllable longer than the usual "communist" as adjective. Rima, I don't need a dictionary to tell that "ic" should be removed for smoother reading. Why does this result in a war? Tony (talk) 02:58, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Tony, I'm not warring with you. I've made that clear. I'v expressed my regret, but I'm keeping my hands down at my side and just trying to duck. What more by the way of peace overtures do you need? Please take yes for an answer. Thanks,--Wehwalt (talk) 03:14, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

I should note that after replying to this discussion, Tony switched from "comments" to "strong oppose" on rather doubtful grounds.--Wehwalt (talk) 03:44, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

"Rima, I don't need a dictionary to tell that "ic" should be removed for smoother reading." Oh, heaven forbid Tony use a real dictionary instead of his own made up one! There we go, folks. Tony just admitted that he doesn't care about real grammar, but will make up his own and shove that standard down people's throats. Disruptive. Nothing more or less. Tony, if you continue trolling FAC like you are doing now, it would be better if you stopped reviewing in general. You are a net negative. We don't need such phonies. We need people who are willing to actually read articles and seek their improvement. Not make stuff up like this. And that little factual inaccuracy at the beginning is so pathetically disturbing, I don't even know what to say. An oppose to be actionable must have specifics that can be changed. Not "I have a general feeling and I'm going to hold out". FAC is not for you to grandstand, and your comments suggest that your opposes are a direct WP:POINT violation. Ottava Rima (talk) 13:45, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. Tony's switch to oppose has made it clear that he no longer cares about the merits of the article, and is out to destroy. Thus the "complaints", which he gleefully informed me of, at the FAC page, and at the pages of the two FA delegates. He would have been justified in taking mild offense. He is not justified in trying to destroy my participation at FAC. I am seriously considering going to ArbCom and asking them to reopen the case against Tony due to continued incivility.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:10, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Wehwalt, ArbCom would be inappropriate right now. Lets handle it amongst ourselves. Tony use to perform thorough reviews that actually mentioned various rules, so it would be best if we can return him to that state. ArbCom would not accomplish that. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:23, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

It's a pity that Sandy's talk page as a "warring" ground. Can this discussion be shifted to somewhere more appropriate, such as WT:FAC or even the discussion of the FAC in question? Dabomb87 (talk) 03:48, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

WT:FAC would be better. The FAC has enough of this in there, and as it really isn't a discussion of the quality of the article, it probably shouldn't.--Wehwalt (talk) 03:54, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

This discussion passed surreal 30 miles ago.

1. I can't imagine Dirty Harry could bully Tony, so that claim is mystifying.
2. Tony's guides about writing are widely used and extremely helpful, if not thoroughly vexing. They are one of the primary facets of FAC that make it both frustrating then equally satisfying when the near-impossible attention to minutiae are met. Go through enough of them and you start second guessing everything you type. It could be a neurosis, or it could be learning. It's hard to tell sometimes.
3. What would be more disappointing here? Getting the article passed by shouting Tony down and having an FA with what appear to be concerns about writing, or working with a copy editor to iron out the prose in places? Malleus sees it. Employ him, or get a recommendation of a good copy editor. Then get another. In my experience, writing FAs is an ongoing exercise in endurance. When I started on Misplaced Pages, I balked at the idea that I should have to bodily travel to a library, of all the ridiculous notions. My complacence when I had a few of my articles pass apparently easily is dangerous. Articles are never finished, and they can always be improved. Only you and I and five other editors know and care enough about that bronze star. Everyone else who reads the article is either clueless or cares about something else. The worst that could happen is that the article gets a star later than you anticipated. --Moni3 (talk) 14:43, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

I didn't switch to "Oppose", as claimed above, but to "Strong oppose". Tony (talk) 14:45, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

You also attacked another reviewer for supporting in that switch, Tony. Don't you see how that could be a tad problematic? Instead of seeking to work on the page, your post became a direct attack against the page and another reviewer. We need a high quality and thorough review of each and every FAC. This would probably require multiple people adding multiple components. Attacking other reviewers while putting up vague statements is not going to improve things. Plus, nominators should have the right to challenge reviewers, especially when statements are vague or confusing. I've seen some of the worse things passed off as reviews demanding blank copyediting, especially with people making statements about language that are not true. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:49, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

::::::Tony, of all people, complaining about rudeness - now I've seen everything! Jimfbleak - talk to me? 14:54, 31 July 2009 (UTC) I'd be grateful for suggestions as to a way out of this situation that satisfies Tony, that leaves this article with a path towards FA if the community decides it is worthy, and that makes me feel that my next nomination is worth putting in the many hours of research and writing. Moni, you speak of libraries. Do you know where I've been this week? Check out my image uploads. I spent Monday at the California State Archives, Tuesday driving but finding time to photograph outdoor tributes to Jerry Voorhis in Pomona, Wednesday at his archives in Claremont, and yesterday at the Nixon library in Yorba Linda. Today I am planning to go back there but I'm starting to wonder what is the point if my work is going to be shot down through animus, however blameworthy I may be for setting this off through an illconsidered comment that I've tried to make up for, Tony has surely escalated the situation. I understand Disneyland is open today ...--Wehwalt (talk) 15:09, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

I only see one solution to this: beers at the White House. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 15:26, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

If you do a copyedit, I'll buy you one. Beer, that is.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:30, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Anyway, gotta go. I have a 10 a.m. appointment at the Nixon library and six more boxes of material on the 1950 election to go through, not only primary materials, which I have not used in this article, but news clippings and the like. Please let's see if we can get a copyedit done and this situation resolved, but don't expect a response from me for a couple of days, I have a red eye tonight and virtually no time this weekend. I will be monitoring via blackberry though. (unsigned by Wehwalt about 1600 July 31 2009)--Wehwalt (talk) 03:43, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Generic lecture

My apologies for not seeing this thread earlier and hopefully nipping it in the bud then. Since it seems like this is more under control now, here are my thoughts for the future. This is a situation that will happen again - a nominator gets frustrated with reviewer comments with which (s)he disagrees and makes an ill-advised comment; the reviewer is offended and the situation descends into personalities rather than issues. This type of interaction leads to the perception that FAC can be a really difficult place to be. :( I encourage reviewers to first air their concerns with nominators on the nominator's talk page (or vice versa); if that doesn't seem to resolve the situation, then I believe that this page (WT:FAC) is the appropriate forum for any concerns about reviewer/nominator interactions, as there are a lot of level-headed people who have this watchlisted and may be able to help defuse situations earlier. (I also strongly suggest that anyone who engages in the discussions here to keep the tone focused on the situation and not the personalities involved.) Everyone involved in the process to remember that we're all volunteers and this is a pretty thankless job. Let's remain civil and focus on the merits of suggestions without editorializing. Karanacs (talk) 16:03, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Thank you and appreciated, and also all your hard work.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:06, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

There's been no apology, for remarks that are worth a de-sysopping. Tony (talk) 05:14, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Not true, and the falsity obvious by inspection to anyone who reads this page.--Wehwalt (talk) 05:34, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Tony, I don't think there's anything more to be said. I did my best to assuage you, but like anyone who criticizes your editing or disagrees with you on policy, I'm being slammed by you. I see no point in further discussion, though I am willing to if anyone thinks it will be helpful. But at this point, I strongly recommend we go our separate ways.--Wehwalt (talk) 05:40, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

{{rp}} template allowed?

In Expedition to the Barrier Peaks (Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Expedition to the Barrier Peaks/archive1), I've used the {{rp} template to indicate page numbers. It puts the page number after the , , etc. dealies as a superscript. Is it allowed in FAs? - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 14:46, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Doesn't matter as long as the citation style is consistent within the article. Dabomb87 (talk) 15:01, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

I've seen this used in FACs before. I personally hate the style, but as long as you are consistent it's okay. Karanacs (talk) 03:02, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

NO TOC

Please do not add NO TOC to FACs; I believe that bombs the TOC out of archives. Can anyone figure out which FAC is killing the TOC at Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Archived nominations/July 2009. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:39, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

It was Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Geraldine Ferraro/archive1. I removed it for you. Theleftorium 18:46, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks! SandyGeorgia (Talk)

Tiny tiny images

Perhaps I'm out of touch, but I'm encountering lots of minitiarised pics. What about this map, in an article that I believe may be resubmitted soon? Is there a problem in up-sizing pics so that you don't have to divert to the image file to determine what on earth they are? I don't see the point. Tony (talk) 14:54, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Are you using Safari? It gives me tinier images than Camino... dave souza, talk 11:32, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

There is some rule in the MOS that says we aren't supposed to size pics unless it is absolutely-positively necessary to see the image (as in the case of maps) - see WP:MOS#Images. Awadewit (talk) 15:12, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

MOS:IMAGES says in part, "As a rule, images should not be set to another size (that is, one that overrides the default). Where it is appropriate to select a particular size, images should generally be no more than 300 pixels wide, so that they can be comfortably displayed on 800x600 monitors." However, depending on the particular situation, the guidelines allow quite a bit of flex. I often point editors to these guidelines when they set all the images in an article to 300px or some such rather than the default, "thumb". The Yukon Quest map could probably be bumped to 200px or 300px without violating the guidelines. I tried both just now to see how they looked; the small map looks better to me in terms of layout but requires clicking to see the details. That's the usual case with maps but not, say, with mug shots. Finetooth (talk) 16:52, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

• My concern building maps has always been that unless you blow them up to 500px or more, the fine details aren't going to come out unless you click on them. It's almost impossible to make an effective map when the box is as small as the one defined by the MOS. I've blown up the map in this article to 300px and shifted things around to make it work. I think it looks a lot better. JKBrooks85 (talk) 23:23, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
  • I should point out that there's some serious wasted space in that image (like the massive "Yukon trail" label) that could be cut. While it's more vertical waste than horizontal, smart image layout is one way to make these things more legible. But frankly there's no way to make thumbs work for maps. Unless we can get some pan-and-scan extension, it's going to be like that. (And we really need to get rid of the tiny image sizes and make 200px the default thumb size at least, but that's another issue.) --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs 00:54, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
    • There's another concern. Readers whose eyesight is not the best sometimes increase the default width. If an editor increases the default width from 180px to 300px, there's a good case to be made that a map that ordinarily should be 400px should be blown up proportionately. This can be done with the upright=2.22 parameter (2.22 ≈ 400/180). Maybe this sort of thing should be added to MOS:IMAGE? Eubulides (talk)
      • I'd be hesitant about doing something like that unless it was coded into thumbnail and image behavior. --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs 01:23, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
        • Yes, it's built into MediaWiki. For example, "]" generates an image that is 20px wide if you are using the default setting of 180px, but is 30px wide if you set your thumbnail width preference to 300px. (Some rounding goes on for performance reasons, which explains why it's not exactly 33px.) Eubulides (talk) 01:52, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
          • Adding this option to MOS:IMAGE is a great idea, making the how-to easier to find and encouraging legible thumbnails. The Yukon trail lettering at 300px is still far too small for me, so that's an example where the use of larger lettering and an increased image using the proportionate method. Perhaps some guidance on maximum image proportion would be useful, as the effect varies greatly from browser to browser.. . dave souza, talk 11:32, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

IMO the rules about image sizes are a mess:

• They forget that most readers are IPs and cannot set prefs.
• The appropriate size for an image depends on its content - simple things like most flags can be pretty small, while diagrams / maps / etc. with a lot of content often need to be big.
• The best size also depends on the use. For example I could use File:Atrax robustus.jpg just as a picture of this spider or of spiders in general, and in this case it could be fairly small. But I could use the same pic to illustrate the chelicerae modified as fangs, which are the signature feature of spiders - and in this case I'd want the image to be shown larger, and might crop and zoom.

Only the editor of an article can judge these issues, and a "one size fits all" guidline is no good for readers. --Philcha (talk) 07:09, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

• • Always willing to learn, I've now tweaked an image using the "upright=" trick to get lettering up to a more legible size. It's very difficult to get lettering big enough on an illustration to work on a thumbnail view, and this helps, in my opinion. . dave souza, talk 11:32, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

• All I know is that it has become a serious issue. Images are now wasted bits of splash, tiny squares of no use at all unless I double-click on each one, which I'm not willing to do. What a pity we've sacrificed images in WP, since according to the ?most recent Signpost section on an external report of WP, images are one of the weakest parts of the project. I just want to know why we have to be so parsimonious: are people's Internet connections THAT SLOW? Tony (talk) 12:11, 3 August 2009 (UTC) PS In addition, who wants to see tiny-wrap skyscraper-tall captions with one-to-three words in most lines? They look ridiculous. See here, for example. Tony (talk) 12:17, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Switch to Camino! In the Carrick image there are about ten words in each line, for me. Having seid that, Sarari is giving about 6 words per line, both at default text size. Could the default image size be automatically varied so that it looks larger to Safari users? How does it look in other browsers? . . dave souza, talk 12:24, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

One problem that we can consider when we compare to printed works is that while some of our images (typically of people and things) are sufficiently clear at a small size that they can be placed in line with text and can be viewed while the user is reading the text without having to break up flow to any great extend, maps and other highly detailed images don't work as well like that - they are meant to augment the text and be read and used both as a standalone as well as together with the text. This is often done through the placement of the image in a half page or full page by itself.

Now, there is no technical reason we can't consider the same for a detailed image that should be part of an article when it is printed out. Yes, we could tell people to go to the image page and print the full size version from there, but considering the KISS case of, say, a middle-school student trying to get information, printing the page should print everything they can see with it. So when an image is detailed and clearly needs more than 300px to be shown, we should allow this, possibly creating an image that fills the width of the current page.

The only problem against this is for non-free images (like the Yukon one above appears to be) which should be minimum size to convey the right information - in the past, I've seen this that enough of the image is retained that while text may be garbled, its clear what the lines and shapes on the map is showing with the actual text restated on the image page. This I don't think most consider acceptable for the purposes of small images sizes, but it is a necessary limitation. Fortunately, for most modern day maps we can consider the recreation of such maps in SVG and making them free (acknowledging the source work as necessary), which then allows us to change font sizes to be better read at larger or small images, allow the images to be large as necessary, and so forth. When this case is met, we then should be considering the possibility of large images for detailed maps and the like. I don't think we can extend this to non-free images, however. --MASEM (t) 12:44, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Isn't one of the considerations readers with 800 x 600 monitors per Misplaced Pages:Manual_of_Style#Images recommending pix no larger than 300px, as well as considerations in WP:ACCESS: "When possible, do not force oversizing of images that override the default user preferences. Some users need to configure their systems to display large text; forced large thumbnails can leave little width for text, making reading difficult"? Are these outdated concerns? —Mattisse (Talk) 12:59, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Maybe that's the other way to go. The 300px is meant to be used for images that are clearly in-line with text (that don't need to be stopped and understood and disrupt the flow of reading). However, to the best of my knowledge, we've never discussed a non-inline image in any MOS, one that would purposely be on its own horizontal space without text wrapping. Such cases should be used for images that need to be larger than 300px on display; at that point, however, our standard ] means of insertion no long apply. We could probably make a template for such "full width images" (they don't need to be the full width of the page, just clearly that they need to be shown at a larger size) to make this work. --MASEM (t) 13:04, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

<ri> {{Wide image}} enables "full width images", it's just that the MOS seems to give priority to the default 180px thumbnails: rephrasing the information in the MOS could help: The paragraph starts with "Most pictures should be between 100 and 400 pixels wide. Generally, use the thumbnail option", and in the same paragraph gives other options "Where it is appropriate to select a particular size". Part of that could be split out as a new paragraph: Suggest

• Where images have a lot of detail, if the detail is important to the article, for example detailed maps, diagrams, or charts, larger images can be used for clarity. The {{Wide image}} template can be used to fit an image into the width of the browser window, or per. Misplaced Pages:Picture tutorial, |upright= can be used with factors greater than 1 to provide a larger image. Factors over ??? should be avoided (if they affect 800x600 screen sizes).

We don't seem to have a template for using the |upright= trick! This proposal could be reflected in FA criteria, which should advise on using large images for clarity..dave souza, talk 14:39, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

• I have raised this matter at MoS talk, where there appears to be a good deal of support for changing the rules to get ourselves out this this absurd situation. Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#Tiny_tiny_images. Tony (talk) 15:54, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Wikivoices episode on reviewing FACs

So, we at Wikivoices, thought it would be a good idea to have a podcast devoted to reviewing FACs. We thought a good way to do this would be to do a sample review during an episode. The group will read the article beforehand and come with prepared comments (well, some of us will be more prepared than others!). We will then explain our reviewing processes and the issues they raised. We were wondering if someone would like to be a guinea pig for this experiment and offer up their FAC for scrutiny. We would also like them to come on the podcast. Anyone who is interested in being a reviewer or reviewee can sign up at Misplaced Pages talk:Wikivoices#FAC review. Please list the article you currently have at FAC or that you are about to list at FAC. Thanks! Awadewit (talk) 03:30, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Clearly, thumbnails will no longer be mandated by MoS

In reference to the section above about this issue, the discussion at MoS talk appears almost certain to remove the prescription for putting thumbnails in articles. In addition, there is already wriggle room not to in the bullets.

The final wording has not yet been agreed on, but I think this is a serious enough fault with the guide line that nominators should loose the idea that thumbnails are mandatory. Tony (talk) 02:36, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Regardless of any changes, this is true: the MOS always said "generally we use thumbs" which means it can't be mandated. --MASEM (t) 03:23, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

I think Tony was referring to the fact that some editors treated that guideline as if it was a mandate. Dabomb87 (talk) 03:26, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

That's what I'm saying and gathered from the discussion - there are editors vigilant about "thumb" when there's no strong requirement (only a strong preference for it). --MASEM (t) 03:32, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. In particular any reformulation ought to elimimate the word "should", as some zealots interpret that as "must". --Philcha (talk) 10:36, 4 August 2009 (UTC)