Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Stephen Roche (football)

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Stephen Roche (football)

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I contested this as a speedy, but looking into it I don't really see where this player passes WP:N currently. He's basically a college footballer, that doesn't seem notable in and of itself. Wizardman 23:58, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Athletes-related deletion discussions. -- –Juliancolton | 00:23, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Football-related deletion discussions. -- –Juliancolton | 00:24, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football related deletions. Giant Snowman 07:32, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
Delete - fails WP:ATHLETE and WP:GNG. Giant Snowman 07:33, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
Delete Being a college footballer isn't enough Spiderone (talk) 08:22, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
Comment, He was the captain of Ireland's 2009 World University Games team and has played for UCD in the League of Ireland. Is this not enough to warrant keeping the article? SchumiUCD (talk) 00:29, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

I'd tend to agree, but the general consensus on here is that youth football isn't notable at all. Jhealy (talk) 15:20, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

World University Games or FAI First Division isnt "youth football".--Vintagekits (talk) 15:24, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Delete, seems to play at a low level in Ireland and the Student Games appearances don't satisfy WP:N or WP:ATHLETE. Tricky finding sources for him as even with a more refined search you end up with as many results for the 1987 Tour de France winner. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 07:38, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
Delete definitely non-notable subject, fails WP:N and WP:ATHLETE. --Angelo (talk) 12:34, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
Comment, Your arguments are flawed because the rest of the UCD squad all have pages. Whats more the fact that he has captained his country places him at a higher level of importance than the rest of the squad. The page should remain. 13.44, 17 August 2009 -- — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.207.58.11 (talk • contribs)
- Actually, only 12 players out of 28 listed in the "current squad" section of the club's article seem to have articles of their own, not all as you state -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 15:36, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
  - Probably the most pedantic comment I've seen in this whole attack on Irish football. That's world-class pedantry right there. Dahamsta (talk) 10:35, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
Delete. WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is not a valid argument in AfD's - the UCD players that do have articles would probably fail Misplaced Pages guidelines anyway. This player fails WP:ATHLETE due to him never playing at a professional level, and fails general notability guidelines due to a lack of published third-party sources. Anything Google gives us is about the other (and much more notable) Stephen Roche. Bettia (bring on the trumpets!) 15:34, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
Delete Not yet notable. Appearances at a non professional level do not make him notable in a sport whose pinnacle is professional. --Dweller (talk) 15:52, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
Comment, Whilst the bulk of the UCD squad are based on players who attend UCD as students they are a professional football team who also sign external players. Stephen Roche gets paid for playing and is therefore playing at a professional level. Their players get payed and they also have players who don't and never have attended UCD. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.44.107.17 (talk • contribs) 17:07, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
- It's understandable that there's confusion here - Misplaced Pages's rules on notability are complex. I'll try to clarify. UCD play in the FAI first division. Roche may be a professional, but the league is not "fully professional"... not even the premier league in Ireland is. This means players need to pass the general notability criteria, rather than gaining automatic notability per WP:ATHLETE. For more information, see Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Football/Fully professional leagues, which explains things well. --Dweller (talk) 20:13, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
Delete. Non-notable football player, fails WP:N and WP:ATHLETE. --Carioca (talk) 21:51, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
Comment, if you look at every irish league club on[REDACTED] you will see that most squads have many players with[REDACTED] pages. does he not deserve a page the same as his team mates and fellow irish league players just because he shares a name with an extremely famous irish athlete. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ucdafc (talk • contribs) 23:00, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
Comment, article significantly improved and multiple sources now added.--Vintagekits (talk) 13:40, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

You've done a great job - congratulations - but all of the sources provided are trivial, which means he won't meet WP:GNG I'm afraid. Giant Snowman 14:17, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

I disagree. Read GNG "Significant coverage is more than a trivial mention but it need not be the main topic of the source material" - describing a players participation in the world student games and in Ireland 2nd highest league is more than a trivial mention. Now if he was only English!--Vintagekits (talk) 14:54, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

That's a bit hypocritical, especially as you argued WP:NTEMP in the aforementioned AfD. --Jimbo 17:06, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Actually my argument was the he was playing in the 104th level of English football.--Vintagekits (talk) 17:17, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

That's where you went wrong, he plays fourth. --Jimbo 17:20, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Not at the time of the nomination he didnt!--Vintagekits (talk) 17:22, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Still 99 tiers off. --Jimbo 17:23, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

It still proves the British bias of the FOOTY Cabal members.--Vintagekits (talk) 10:48, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Keep, has represented and captained his country at the World Student Games and now is playing in a professional football division. Multiple sources go beyong trivial mentions. Growing concensus that these players are notable.--Vintagekits (talk) 16:01, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

You've been arguing the professional status of the League of Ireland Premier Division. This player only seems to have played in the First Division, which has no fully professional clubs. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 05:48, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Bray were in the Premier division when he was with them.--Vintagekits (talk) 14:08, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

But do you have a source that he actually played for Bray? Or is the figure in the infobox incorrect? Giant Snowman 14:18, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I can see there is a source already actually. The source given confirms he played in the League Cup for Bray, not the league - I have adjusted the article accordingly. Giant Snowman 14:23, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

The league cup is a notable competition with professional teams.--Vintagekits (talk) 20:23, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

There's a serious lack of understanding of the League of Ireland going on here. While not all teams are full time only two sides in the league, including the first division, are amateur; Wexford Youths and Mervue United, the others are all professional, including UCD. Also Sporting Fingal playing in the First Division are a full time professional outfit. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.47.42.32 (talk) 09:40, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

According to this report in the Independant, there are only three professional teams in Ireland at the moment (Bohemians, Derry and Sligo). Also, I would find it highly doubtful that UCD (or any university team in the entire world) would be fully professional. Indeed, if you look at that source, you'll see UCD and Bray are both mentioned as one of last year's part-time teams. Bettia (bring on the trumpets!) 10:16, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
- Clearly when the IP refers to teams as being "professional", he/she is using it in the sense of "not totally amateur" and therefore including semi-pro teams..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 10:31, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
Keep - Refer to my previous comments on the nasty little spackers running this attack on Irish football. Dahamsta (talk) 10:35, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

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