Misplaced Pages

User page

If you have any opinions on the proposal, please participate in the discussion. Thanks! — the Man in Question (in question) 20:38, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

WP:IAR is a much better summation of what I was trying to explain to you before. And it happens to have been the first rule of Misplaced Pages, and the only one I care about. I'm very happy I found it - I'm going to cite it every single time somebody like you tries to bully me with WP:WIKILAWYERING. I just want to improve the encyclopedia, I don't care about the rules. And according to Jimbo Wales, I shouldn't, because Misplaced Pages has no firm rules. DegenFarang (talk) 16:10, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Degen this is your last warning for disruptive behaviour - civility is a non negotiable aspect of communication on wikipedia. Your posts to multiple users including myself have been in breach of this. I've pointed you towards our rules, our policies and our etiquette - these are the basic requirements for working on this project. WP:CIVIL spells it all out quite neatly. And no IAR doesn't trump WP:CIVIL, WP:DE, WP:TE, WP:NOR or WP:V (see WP:WIARM). Not caring about the rules is your problem nobody else's. This is a collaborative project that's why we need rules. If you can't/wont/don't follow them, you will be prevented from breaking them and thus disrupting the project and its editing environment. You've had fair warning--Cailil 16:22, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

I find it hilarious that you responded to that with a string of WP:THIS and WP:THAT. As I said, I only care about one rule. WP:IAR. "Rules have zero importance compared with that goal (creating a 💕). If they aid that goal, good. If they interfere with it, they are instantly negated." The rules constantly interfere with my ability to improve Misplaced Pages because in 90% of instances they are used as WP:WIKILAWYERING - just as you are using them now. DegenFarang (talk) 19:02, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Degen I'm going to advise you to "stop digging". Our core policies are non-negotiable and if you can't (or don't want to) work within them, or indeed work with other people in a civil, collegial and appropriately measured fashion you will be prevented from disrupting other users who do. WP:IAR does not grant you permission to use talk space in this manner--Cailil 19:16, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps I can assist you. You say that the core policies are 'non-negotiable' yet all of them say they should be used under 'normal' conditions. http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Use_common_sense#Use_common_sense - I absolutely love the title they gave the section that 'normal' links to 'use common sense'. So, no, you are wrong, the core principles are absolutely negotiable if common sense dictates they are not applicable, see WP:IAR. What appears to be non negotiable are the 5 pillars of Misplaced Pages, to keep it free, to be neutral, that it is an encyclopedia and that wikipedia does not have firm rules. Oh yes, the other one, about treating each other with respect and civility - of all of the points you have attempted to make, this is the only one which has any merit. I will attempt to adhere to this pillar of Misplaced Pages more prudently. I will not, however, stop using my common sense and become a robot to every policy and guideline I read or have quoted to me. DegenFarang (talk) 21:16, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Degen nobody is asking you to do anything other than use common sense. And if you read our core policies (which make up those 5 pillars - the green and the blue ones) you'll see that WP:NPOV, WP:NOR, WP:NOTE and WP:V are non-negotiable. I'm not here to debate policy with you - these are the standards we expect of all editors using this project and that's all--Cailil 22:17, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

You are flat wrong. I don't think you or the other editors and administrators who agree with you are lying, I think you are just blinded by the normal way of doing things and have failed to recognize the truly awesome way that Misplaced Pages was setup - to empower each of us to break every rule and use our own common sense when making changes. You say that WP:NOV, WP:NOR, WP:NOTE and WP:V are all "non-negotiable". I submit:

From WP:NOR: This page documents an English Misplaced Pages policy, a widely accepted standard that all editors should normally follow

From WP:NOV (does not exist, I assume you mean WP:NPOV). From WP:NPOV: This page documents an English Misplaced Pages policy, a widely accepted standard that all editors should normally follow

From WP:NOTE:This page documents an English Misplaced Pages notability guideline. It is a generally accepted standard that editors should attempt to follow, though it is best treated with common sense, and occasional exceptions may apply

From WP:V:This page documents an English Misplaced Pages policy, a widely accepted standard that all editors should normally follow

As you can see each contains clear instructions to use them only under normal conditions, defined as "Misplaced Pages has many rules. Instead of following every rule, it is acceptable to use common sense as you go about editing. Being too wrapped up in rules can cause loss of perspective (!! my entire point !!), so there are times when it is better to ignore a rule. Even if a contribution "violates" the precise wording of a rule, it might still be a good contribution. The principle of the rules is more important than the letter. Why isn't "use common sense" an official policy? If you need to be told that this is a rule, you've missed the point entirely. (!!!) DegenFarang (talk) 06:26, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

• Degen of course using common sense is always appropriate but no IAR never trumps our core policy on neutrality, verification or original research, period. It also never trumps or policy on the biography of living persons.
  I've also told you already that I'm not here to debate policy with you. You must have missed that point so please refrain from making this kind of post. If you have a specific issue I can help you with feel free to post here again--Cailil 13:53, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
  • Part of WP:V and WP:NOR is that you are allowed to use WP:IAR to override them if common sense dictates they do not apply (This page documents an English Misplaced Pages policy, a widely accepted standard that all editors should normally follow). So it is therefore impossible to factually state that WP:IAR never trumps WP:V or WP:NOR. (talk) 15:08, 16 January 2010 (UTC).
    • Degen I've politely asked you to stop posting to my talk page in order to debate policy. You've been corrected not just by myself but also on WT:V. No IAR does not permit use of inadequate sources or original research, period. Now please if you don't have another matter to discuss stop posting here-Cailil 17:45, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
      • I don't have anything else to discuss and I'd love to stop posting here but you are wrong. If you can direct me to a place on Misplaced Pages where it says that IAR does not apply to WP:V and WP:NOR, I will give you $10,000. Otherwise, please admit that you are wrong - or at least stop telling me I am wrong, because I clearly am not. DegenFarang (talk) 17:58, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
        • Degen here's a perfect example of when IAR does not apply - when you have been asked to stop posting on another person's talk page. This is tendentious editing. WP:WIARM spells out that ""Ignore all rules" does not mean there is necessarily an exception to every rule." If you want more help with this ask at WP:NORN. But be extremely clear, IAR is not a trump card on any core policy at any time, ever, anywhere on wikipedia. We work by consensus in creating articles through the neutral recording of verifiable sources without advancing an opinion or taking sides in a debate. When someone makes a bold move (or a move ignoring rules) it is still subject to discussion in the bold, revert, discuss cycle. Finally, part of common sense is understanding the spirit of the rule rather than obeying the letter. You are doing the reverse and that, ironically, is rules-lawyering.
          This conversation is at an end - let it go and do not post on this page again. If you need administrator assistance please contact someone else. If you want to talk to me do it through WP:ANI. I've also seen you be helpful to other users. Don't spoil that by engaging in tendentious posting--Cailil 20:39, 16 January 2010 (UTC)