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• WT:OR
• WT:NOR

Questionable interpretations of SYNTH

Some editors are using the "no synth" policy to make what I consider to be questionable deletions. Here is one: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Tokyo_Two&diff=368089559&oldid=368087727 Here is what they seem to consider SYNTH. Remember, each line is reliably sourced:

Paraphrased: Sato and Suzuki are suspects in Japan. They claim they were harshly interrogated by the Japanese authorities. Amnesty International has urged Japan to stop using harsh techniques to interrogate suspects. (SYNTH because AI didn't mention Sato and Suzuki by name.)

Another supposedly unacceptable example:

Lucky Strikes are an American brand of cigarette. According to the Surgeon General, smoking cigarettes has been found to be hazardous to your health and to cause cancer. (SYNTH because the Surgeon General did not mention Lucky Strikes by name.)

Here's another that would be unacceptable because Leader X was not mentioned by name at the Nuremberg Tribunals or in the Geneva Conventions:

Leader X has been accused of genocide. According to the Nuremberg Tribunals and the Geneva Conventions, genocide is a war crime.

I think these interpretations are ridiculous, so I think you need to clarify this policy. Ghostofnemo (talk) 06:55, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm the one who argues that wp:NOR needs changes to prevent it from being mis-used. That may also be the case here (e.g. this could be a neutrality topic), but, IMHO, in each of these cases, the juxtaposition of the second statement with the first is itself making a statement (including casting a dispersion on the subject of the first sentence.) which should be subject to rules about statements. Or, looking at it from another (non-wp:nor) angle, in each case, one would need to ask, what is that paragraph about, and, does the second sentence serve that topic? North8000 (talk) 10:33, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Re the Sato and Suziki article, the part about Amnesty International (AI) adds to the impression that Sato and Suziki were harshly interrogated, which was not the intent of the AI source. So you have given an example of how WP:NOR works well. FYI, in addition to synth, it's also a matter of the AI material not being "directly related" to Sato and Suziki, which is a requirement mentioned in the lead of WP:NOR.

Similarly with the Leader X example.

Re Lucky Strikes, I would have to see the rest of the article to decide whether or not WP:NOR is working well in this case. Also, note that WP:NOR doesn't have to be enforced in a particular case, according to WP:IAR, if no one objects to the edit or if consensus is against enforcement.

Regards, --Bob K31416 (talk) 10:49, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm afraid I would also consider these SYNTH unless a stronger link could be shown between the pairs of sentences. Were AI in some way specially referring to those cases or are they noted in some way as being part of the group harshly treated? genocide can have a wikilink, there is no need to spell out it is a crime and the same with cigarettes. These extra bits strike me as soapboxing. Dmcq (talk) 10:55, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

It's just bad writing in the first two examples. Like North8000 says, we have to figure out what the paragraph is supposed to be about. In the third example, the issue is that "genocide" can be used with a lot of meanings, so we need to make sure everyone is talking about the same thing. — Carl (CBM · talk) 10:59, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

I would support those deletions; they are precisely the kinds of cases WP:SYN is meant to address. The thing to do is to research sources that are about Sato and Suzuki/Lucky Strike/Leader X, and reflect what sources are writing about them. Sorry. --JN466 21:52, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

These are not "questionable interpretations of SYN" — they are textbook examples of SYN, and exactly the kind of novel "position advancing" by Wikipedians that SYN is designed to prevent. We are not allowed to combine sources to make a point, unless there is a reliably published source which makes that point for us. So in an article about Mr. X, if one source tells us that X smokes, and another source tells us that smoking is bad, we are not allowed to bring in the second source unless it mentions Mr. X. Otherwise we'd be advancing a position by juxtaposing or combining sources. Similarly for the other examples: if you combine sources to make a point, the sources must be all related to the article topic and there must be a source which makes the same point, stated or implied, or else you are introducing or creating a novel position, which is a WP:SYN violation. Crum375 (talk) 22:08, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

If a respected human rights group has condemned a certain group for a certain type of activity, in general and not in regards to a specific prisoner, that seems relevant in an article about a subject who claims he is being subjected to that same treatment by that same group. It also supports the notion that his mistreatment is notable if AI has previously complained about it regarding other prisoners. And it's clear from the BBC article that AI is making a general condemnation, not a condemnation in one particular case. Another hypothetical example (and the Lucky Strikes and Leader X were also hypothetical): if a biography of a death row inmate notes that Amnesty International has condemned the U.S. for using the death penalty, AI doesn't have to mention that inmate by name for the citation to be relevant, IMHO. If Leader X commits genocide, the fact that genocide has been condemned by international bodies is relevant to that situation, even if the accused was not mentioned by name at the Nuremberg Trials or in the Geneva Conventions. I think what is going on here is that some editors are assuming a "however" or a cause/effect relationship where one is not being stated. Ghostofnemo (talk) 23:42, 16 June 2010 (UTC) And this results in the exclusion of relevant information. Ghostofnemo (talk) 23:44, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Your examples all sound like synthesis to me. They are trying to advance a position,[REDACTED] is not in the business of pushing that isn't in the original sources. If the link between AI and those prisoners was relevant some newspaper would have made a link, if they haven't then neither should Misplaced Pages. Misplaced Pages is not a soapbox. Dmcq (talk) 23:53, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

It's not advocating a position. It's providing information relevant to the situation from reliable sources. Since AI and the BBC have pointed out a general concern about how suspects are interrogated in Japan, it's a very different situation than one in which these suspects are making these allegations for the first time. Here's another example from a hypothetical article about Car X: Car X uses the 123 suspension system. The Association of Automobile Engineers has noted serious problems with the 123 suspension system, and have called for its discontinuation because of safety concerns. (The hypothetical AAE article does not mention any car models by name) Ghostofnemo (talk) 23:59, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Likewise, if the Surgeon General has cautioned against smoking IN GENERAL, that means he is cautioning against the smoking of ALL cigarettes, and he doesn't have to list them by name. Ghostofnemo (talk) 00:09, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

My interpretation of SYNTH would be: Mr. X smokes.(sourced) The government has stated that smoking cigarettes is hazardous to your health.(sourced) Mr. X is stupid.(unsourced) Ghostofnemo (talk) 00:19, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Key points related to SYN: a) If you are advancing a position, all sources used for that must refer specifically to the article subject, not to a related subject; and b) The point which is being made, either explicitly or implicitly (e.g. by juxtaposition), must be directly made by one of the sources. Bottom line: you cannot take individually sourced bits of material to create or imply new ideas or new points for which there is no direct source, and all the sources used to make a point must refer to the specific article topic. Crum375 (talk) 00:43, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Crum and I don't agree that often but I think that this is one of those times. If you stripped those first three examples to their absolute literal logical bones that might not yield a literal new construction there. But in speaking and writing practice, the juxtaposition certainly matters and is certainly advancing a position. Possibly wp:synth/wp:nor (the policy or the "noun") was just the easiest way to knock it out vs. a more complex and drawn out NPOV or Undue Weight (based on the subject of the paragraph) argument, but IMHO whichever of the three is used, those statements needed to be removed. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 01:46, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

The claim that "all sources used for that must refer specifically to the article subject" is not policy and only creates confusion. Jc3s5h (talk) 01:57, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Here is what the policy says (bold added):

• WP:NOR: "To demonstrate that you are not adding original research, you must be able to cite reliable published sources that are directly related to the topic of the article, and that directly support the material as presented."
• WP:SYN: "'A and B, therefore C' is acceptable only if a reliable source has published the same argument in relation to the topic of the article."

So what exactly is "not policy" in your view? Crum375 (talk) 02:16, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, I could have sworn that crap had been removed. As I see it, if I'm writing an article about, say, the tropical year, and I use a source about Albert Einstein to decide where to place his contributions in the history section, there is nothing wrong with that. If it were a contentious article, though, some zealot could come along and delete the information about Einstein on the grounds that the source was not titled 'Albert Einstein and the Tropical Year'. Jc3s5h (talk) 03:47, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

If you have a source saying that Einstein contributed to the concept of the tropical year, that would conform to the policy, assuming the source mentions Einstein in relation to the TY. For issues that are not controversial and are not "advancing a point", e.g. historical background about a scientist involved with the article topic, there is no harm in bringing in sources which are not directly focused on the article topic. But as soon as there is controversy and a "point" is being made, either explicitly or implicitly, we need a source making that point for us in relation to the article topic. Crum375 (talk) 04:00, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

The problem is that the crap about the source being related to the subject of the article is not qualified by any phrase along the lines of "when advancing a position" or "in controversial cases" and so ought to be removed. Once it is removed, Crum375 would have to rephrase his/her arguments. Of course it is always wrong to use information outside of the original context, that is, the original context may have restricted the meaning of words or created one set of implication, where no such restrictions or a different set of implications apply in the new context, so the passage takes on a new meaning. An example would be to mention that an American was observed smoking marijuana while failing to mention the smoking occurred in a country where there is no law against marijuana.

The rule about sources being about the same topic as the article is really a crude attempt to control the meaning of words and the implications surrounding statements, but really any material from any reliable source ought to be allowed so long as the meaning of words and the context of implications surrounding them are the same in the source and the Misplaced Pages article, or any discrepancies are explained in the Misplaced Pages article. An example would be any use of an old source in Galaxy; one written before the modern understanding in galaxies. In such old sources, the word "universe" was often used the way we use "galaxy" today, so this older usage would have to be explained whenever such an old source is used. Jc3s5h (talk) 10:29, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

ugh. ok, look, this is a very subtle issue. this passage:

• Sato and Suzuki are suspects in Japan. They claim they were harshly interrogated by the Japanese authorities. Amnesty International has urged Japan to stop using harsh techniques to interrogate suspects.

is SYN because it makes it sound like Amnesty International was responding specifically to Sato and Suzuki's case. however, this passage:

• Sato and Suzuki are suspects in Japan. They claim they were harshly interrogated by the Japanese authorities, techniques which Amnesty International has previously urged Japan to avoid using.

is probably not SYN, since there is no implicit suggestion that AI is talking about this particular case. A few moments of thought and consideration can save a whole peck of annoying troubles. Remember,[REDACTED] is for building an encyclopedia, not for perfecting one's obsessive-compulsive disorders. --Ludwigs2 04:53, 17 June 2010 (UTC)--Ludwigs2 04:53, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

I agree with that these are classic SYN violations, precisely the kind of editing the policy warns against.

• Consider one of the examples: "Leader X has been accused of genocide. According to the Nuremberg Tribunals and the Geneva Conventions, genocide is a war crime." (The source for the second sentence doesn't mention Leader X.)

• Now consider this made-up example with the same structure: "Smith was fond of animals as a child, often preferring them to his human friends. According to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, preferring animals to humans can be a sign of anti-social personality disorder." (The source for the second sentence doesn't mention Smith.)

Ghostofnemo, do you see now why we warn against it? SlimVirgin 07:08, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

I don't believe a reader of average intelligence would jump to the conclusion that AI has commented on Sato and Suzuki's case using EITHER version cited by Ludwig2. Is this "Misplaced Pages for Dummies"? Regarding SlimVirgin's example, what if you had reliable sources that said Smith did W, X, Y and Z during his entire childhood, and the Diagnostic Manual was quoted as saying, "People who exhibit all of behaviors W,X,Y and Z during childhood have an extremely high likelihood of having anti-social personality disorder." ? Ghostofnemo (talk) 07:18, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Let's say Smith constantly got in trouble for starting fires at school, torturing animals, vandalism and bullying? Ghostofnemo (talk) 07:22, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

You'd need a reliable source that makes the connection, no matter how obvious it seems to you. There could be other explanations. Smith could have a brain tumour, or he may have been falsely accused. We want to know what reliable sources say about it. SlimVirgin 07:41, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

I think that Slim Virgin's example more clearly pointed out the problem with your example statements. Even though I think that your argument would say that it was OK, i.e that it doesn't explicitly say so, the writer is clearly (without basis or sources) associating Smith with anti-social personality disorder in the readers' minds. Whether it gets knocked out by wp:nor, wp:npov or for just being bad writing, I think that such things should be removed. North8000 (talk) 11:50, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

I appreciate Qwyrxian's mention on the Tokyo Two talk page to let everyone discussing this with Ghostofnemo know he's brought it here. His view was brought up and rejected on multiple articles and for each article, brought to one or more noticeboards. I'm hoping that this will help him finally "get it" and accept what the concensus definition of a SYNTH arguement. Ravensfire (talk) 14:25, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

I agree that the personality disorder example would be questionable, but I think it's clearly ok to mention general comments about a subject that are clearly relevant to the subject but which don't refer to the subject by name. Lucky Strikes are cigarettes and the Surgeon General has warned people about the dangers of smoking cigarettes, no matter which brand they smoke. Leader X has been accused of genocide, and genocide is a war crime no matter who commits it. The safety of the 123 suspension system has been question by engineers, no matter which model of car it is installed in, and so on. These are not SYNTH, and AI's general criticism of the way Japan treats suspects is not SYNTH in the way I've used it, and I think that needs to be clarified on this policy page since so many people are interpreting it incorrectly. Ghostofnemo (talk) 00:46, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

These are all classical examples of WP:OR and WP:SYN. I'll take just one, because they are all similar. "Lucky Strikes are cigarettes and the Surgeon General has warned people about the dangers of smoking cigarettes, no matter which brand they smoke.": If the article is about Lucky Strikes (LS), you can describe any source which discusses smoking safety and LS. But if you choose a source which does not discuss LS, you may not use it to make any point or "advance a position". So you may not bring in a general study about smoking safety and use it as source for the LS article. The reason is simple: if you do use a source which does not mention LS, you are implying that the source applies to LS, despite the fact that no reliable source has done so. So either that connection is wrong, or it's not notable, but either way, if no reliable published source has made that connection, we as a "summarizer of published reliable sources" shouldn't do so either, to avoid violating WP:NOR and synthesis. Crum375 (talk) 01:03, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

This is precisely where we differ. The Surgeon General's comments DO OBVIOUSLY apply to Lucky Strikes, whether or not he mentions them by name. It is notable if a product is a health hazard and an authority says it causes cancer. Ghostofnemo (talk) 01:09, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

No, there is no "obvious" on WP, because what's obvious to you is not obvious to someone else, and vice versa. This is why we rely on reliable sources, and our goal is to summarize what they have written about a given topic. So if the topic is LS, we can't go to some generic study and apply it to LS, unless a published reliable source has already done so. That's the key to what we do here: we summarize published material about a topic, and not make up new connections or observations about it. If the point or connection you are trying to make is so important, some reliable source will have made it. If no such source has done so, we shouldn't either. Crum375 (talk) 01:22, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages does not require us to prove things that are obvious facts. Lucky Strikes are obviously cigarettes. This is from the WP:NOR page: ""Paris is the capital of France" needs no source because no one is likely to object to it, but we know that sources for that sentence exist." It is also obvious that if the S.G. says "smoking cigarettes is dangerous" that applies to all cigarettes. Ghostofnemo (talk) 01:30, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

That Paris is the capital of France is an example of something not "likely to be challenged". This means that when we write "Paris, the capital of France", we need no immediate source for it in the article. But if someone comes by and challenges it, we have a thousand sources that will tell us that Paris is the capital of France, and we can quickly slap on that reference if needed. This is what we mean when we say "Everything on WP must be attributable, but not necessarily attributed. But if something is challenged, likely to be challenged, or quoted, it must be attributed." In the case of Lucky Strikes, the point you are making is that some safety study applies to a specific brand. If you are personally sure it's as clear as Paris is the capital of France, and is not likely to be challenged, leave out the source. But as soon as someone challenges that connection, you must supply a source which makes that specific connection, or else you are violating WP:V, WP:NOR and WP:SYN. Crum375 (talk) 01:42, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Crum condenses my understanding of the intent of the policy perfectly. Blueboar (talk) 02:23, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

There has to be some 'absurdity' criteria here. One does not expect anyone in the world (legal profession exempted) to spell out every single detail of every single statement. When the Surgeon General (or a scientific researcher) says that smoking cigarettes is dangerous, that statement involves a scientific inference to all cigarettes which everyone in the scientific world would recognize and respect. claiming that lucky strikes are dangerous to smoke is therefore a perfectly valid deduction, unless there is some reason presented in reliable sources which exempts lusky strikes from the established consensus about cigarettes in general. SYN is an invalid generalization or extension; pure deduction can't be synthetic reasoning.

• deduction: SG says cigarettes are bad; LS are a brand of cigarettes; SG would say that LS are bad - there's no synthesis here, because LS are included in the SG's original pronouncement as a class of objects
• synthesis: SG says cigarettes are bad; cigarettes are made of tobacco, and so are cigars; SG would say that cigars are bad - there is synthesis here: the SG probably would say that cigars are bad, but they were not covered in the class of objects he originally dealt with, so we cannot make that inference for him. --Ludwigs2 03:15, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

There is no absurdity, only clear and simple rules. We summarize what reliable sources have published about a topic; we don't create new information, inferences, deductions or conclusions about it. This is the essence of Misplaced Pages, as clearly described in WP:V, WP:NOR and specifically WP:SYN. If you examine your argument above you'll note that you rely on deductions and inferences, exactly the kinds of things we are not allowed to do. Again, we summarize what reliable sources have written. We don't combine what they say to create or imply new conclusions or inferences which are not direclty supported by a reliable source in relation to the article topic. Crum375 (talk) 03:58, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Deductions are WP:Original research as far as Misplaced Pages is concerned and are forbidden. Just don't stick in stuff you deduced instead of read. Dmcq (talk) 08:38, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

This seems to be a hot topic, but I would like to contribute my 2-cents worth. I think that the present policy should be clarified and that editors should be allowed to report two well verified facts, even if there is no single source that itself reports those facts. For example, if a film contains inaccuracies, then it should be permissible to state what is in the film and to state what reliable sources say about the historical reality. It should not be necessary to have to find a film review that talks about inaccuracies. Based on the comments above, I realize that my view is probably a minority view, but I thought that I would throw it in anyway. My justification for this view is that, in my opinion, Misplaced Pages should strive to be a compendium of all reliable information, and that that information should be grouped together in such a way that people who seek information can find it easily. So related reliable information should be presented together, even if there is no single external source that presents it together. In my view, what I propose is not original research and does not constitute deduction: the reader would be free to deduce or not from the information.--Gautier lebon (talk) 15:02, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

I agree. Stating facts reported by reliable sources is objective and NPOV. Let the readers draw their own conclusions. We don't have to protect them from jumping to erroneous conclusions that are not stated. What NO SYNTH should mean is that we shouldn't draw our own, original conclusions based on facts reported by our reliable sources. Ghostofnemo (talk) 05:52, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

I don't know if it should be ruled out by wp:nor or not, but one should recognize that in all of the examples, selecting the second statement and juxtoposing it with the first was very POV pushing and bad writing. North8000 (talk) 10:14, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

The present policy is quite clear. It doesn't need such clarification where clarification means you disagree with it. If you wish to propose a change to the policy say so, don't mealy mouth it as 'clarification'. Dmcq (talk) 11:02, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

And to clarify, no I don't think you should be pointing out inaccuracies in films if reviewers haven't already done so. Dmcq (talk) 11:05, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

I think that we're talking about 3-4 different topics at once hereNorth8000 (talk) 13:04, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

I would be happy with some lines in the policy that said something like this:

Statement of facts and simple deduction are not synthesis.

• Statement of facts: One of the United Nations' stated purposes is to promote world peace. (reliable source) Since the United Nations was established, there have been 160 armed conflicts.(reliable source) Citizens Against Wars has criticized the U.N. for not doing enough to prevent wars.(reliable source)
• Simple deduction: Pufferoos are a brand of cigarette made in the U.S. (reliable source) The Surgeon General has warned that smoking cigarettes is hazardous to your health. (reliable source) Note that the Surgeon General does not have to mention Pufferoos by name, since they are obviously members of the same category of objects that the Surgeon General is warning us about." Ghostofnemo (talk) 01:40, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

You might have a good idea with respect to wp:nor. And I agree that a logically sound and rigorous deduction is not OR or synthesis. But IMHO the juxtaposition is still soapboxing with POV problems. Also, a purely logic analysis as you are implying would not be applicable / come to the conclusion that you imply, because we are talking about the ramifications, implied meanings and swaying of readers of JUSTAPOSITION those statements, not actual statements. Such is is not in the universe of pure logic. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 02:39, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

I disagree with one point there. A logiclly sound and rigorous deduction can be original research. Writing a new idea up in Misplaced Pages without a reliable source is a definite no no - it doesn't matter how true and wonderful it is nor how mathematically rigorous its deductions are. And by the way I'm glad of that as I keep on having to remove peoples ideas which they say are TRUE and can be put in because they are deduced logically and so are just simple calculations - but in fact they are wrong wrong wrong. Dmcq (talk) 09:53, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

(inserted later) You are right, I misspoke. I should have said that SOMETIMES a logically sound and rigorous deduction is not OR or synthesis.North8000 (talk) 12:10, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Ghost, there are no "facts" on Misplaced Pages, only material which summarizes what reliable sources have written. And a summary does not include a deduction, inference, or any point which is not explicitly made by a reliable source. We may not combine material from two sources to create, by inference, deduction, or juxtaposition, a new point which is not directly made by a reliable source. That's the essence of WP:NOR and WP:SYN. Crum375 (talk) 02:45, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

My bad then, but note that I put after each "fact" (reliably sourced), so we are on the same page, just calling it different things. Ghostofnemo (talk) 13:10, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

In some cases what is considered valid summarization IS deduction. North8000 (talk) 03:07, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Example, please? Crum375 (talk) 03:35, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

The hypothetical article is about Organization A, the paragraph is about it's demise in the mid 1950's. Research for the article found the following: Organization A was on the Ohio Secretary of State's non profit corporation list in 1955. (sourced) Organization A was not on the Ohio Secretary of State's non profit corporation list in 1956. (sourced) Summary/deduction in the article: In 1955 or 1956 Organization A was dropped from the Ohio Secretary of State's list of non-profit corporations. North8000 (talk) 12:03, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Those Secretary of State listings are a primary source, and may not be used to make a point unless backed up by a secondary source. In any case, it's not a good example for SYN, since it conflates two separate concepts: primary sources may not be used to make a point, while a combination of secondary sources may not be used to make a point either. Crum375 (talk) 13:32, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

If you are saying that overall, my (hypothetical) example statement (having only those sources) should be excluded from Misplaced Pages, then we simply disagree. The sources are absolutely reliable for that statement, and unarguably support it 100%. And it would be poor writing in this context not to summarize it. IMHO any rule that would exclude that needs to be changed. North8000 (talk) 14:47, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

If the only sources you have are primary, then yes, Misplaced Pages may not have an article on the subject, because notability requires third party secondary sources. Reliability is only one issue in such cases; you also need notability and relevance, as judged by independent reliable secondary sources. Crum375 (talk) 15:48, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Outddent. Crum has stated above

We may not combine material from two sources to create, by inference, deduction, or juxtaposition, a new point which is not directly made by a reliable source.

This seems sensible to me. But many articles contain (and must contain) information derived from more than one source. The key point seems to me that the Misplaced Pages editor should not create a new point which is not made by a reliable source. That seems OK to me. But what escapes me is why an editor cannot put in an article relevant material from reliable sources, if the editor does not create a new point. It seems that one objection is that doing so may implicitly create a new point, because the editor is choosing which material to include. But the whole essence of Misplaced Pages is choosing what material to summarize and include. It seems to me that there is no harm in presenting reliable information, even if the reader might, on her or his own, draw some inferences from that information.--Gautier lebon (talk) 07:52, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Crum, wp:notability is a criteria for (existence of) articles, not a criteria for existence of material within articles. North8000 (talk) 10:34, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Yellowstone

So here's a recent example from a very popular article Yellowstone of a statement that although completely factual, absent any context, can be seen as SYNTH for POV reasons or just bad writing. (its been removed, reverts, removed many times)

The statement: Yellowstone is widely considered to be the finest megafauna wildlife habitat in the lower 48 states. There are almost 60 species of mammals in the park, including the endangered gray wolf, the threatened lynx, and grizzly bears. (This is statement is sourced to an NPS fact sheet)

The facts: Yellowstone has Gray Wolves, Gray Wolves are listed as an Endangered Species, Gray Wolves are not listed as Endangered in the Yellowstone region. (all of these facts are supportable by reliable sources uequivocally)

The implied SNYTH and thus POV pushing - Gray Wolves are endangered in YNP (There are a lot of associated controversies with that idea)

Question: Is this just bad writing or is it SYNTH by our policy wording? My quick interpretation is that it is SYNTH by stealth in a way because the article is about Yellowstone, not about wolves or endangered species. Wolves as a topic are once removed from Yellowstone, while Endangered Specie are twice removed. Because the context of the article is Yellowstone, not wolves or endangered species, the facts, although accurate, synthesize an implication that is not true and extensive explanation of that in the article won't fly because that's not what the article is about. Any thoughts on the policy re this type of situation?--Mike Cline (talk) 12:46, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

It seems to me all you need is a reliable source that says wolves in Yellowstone are not considered to be an endangered species. You would deleted the edit that said they were endangered because it was unsourced or not reliably sourced, not because it was synth. Ghostofnemo (talk) 13:10, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Adding "endangered" to a species not so listed in the YNP source would be SYN. You need a source discussing YNP and the endangered status of that species. If none of the reliable source has found it necessary or pertinent to mention that status, we shouldn't mention it either. This is exactly what SYN is about. Crum375 (talk) 13:25, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

I think the lesson here is that the claim of SYNTH can be based on very subtle wording issues. The Yellowstone statement as written is completely factual and supported by reliable sources. What it lacks is the detailed explanation that points to the non-endangered status of the wolf in Yellowstone. No one contests these facts. However, adding that explanation to the article is not appropriate and resisted because the article is not about Wolves or even less about endangered species. This leaves us with an implied conclusion that Wolves are endangered YNP which they are not. Any editor could argue successfully that the endangered Gray Wolf is an accurate statement and supported by reliable sources. Equally I believe, that any editor, knowing the underlying details of the status of the wolf in Yellowstone (all supportable by reliable sources) could argue that there is SYNTH in the statement (as written) because of the implication that Wolves in YNP are endangered. Guys, this was just a subtle example to keep the discussion going. Doesn't need any resolution. Thanks for commenting.--Mike Cline (talk) 13:54, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

IMHO it is not even factual. Much communication is implicit. As a starting point, it's implicit that "endangered" means US government classification. The mild falsity is that saying a species is endangered without a geographic qualifier is implicitly saying that it is endangered everywhere in the USA. The more severe falsity is implicitly saying that it is endangered in YNP. North8000 (talk) 14:41, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Factual and reliable and good deductions still don't stop things being synthesis. For instance if A.B is in the government and there is a scandal about members of the government taking backhanders, and a survey shows that a majority of the public answered yes when asked 'do you believe the members of the government are all on the make?". We would still not be okay in writing "A.B is believed to be on the make". And it is certainly not right to ask that someone produce something saying he is not on the make before removing it. Dmcq (talk) 16:01, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

We're not disagreeing. I was just pointing out that those statements (and even the one in your new example) have other problems unrelated to synthesis. North8000 (talk) 17:40, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

I get what North8000 is saying since things being sourced is good. However, attempting to lead the reader to draw a conclusion (as is the case with the not hypothetical edits) opens the door for POV, scandal mongering, and editorials on Misplaced Pages. We are fortunately currently prevented from doing that. An easy way to include any correlation between information is making sure that the relevance is well sourced.Cptnono (talk) 22:21, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

My take on the example re wolves in YNP boils down to a question: The assertion re endangered gray wolves being present in YNP (see this edit removing it) looks like an example of OR and a problem with V. No supporting cite is present, so the info asserted cannot be quickly confirmed and may be challenged or removed. Page 15 of this source (see also this) may refute the assertion (as the editor who removed the assertion suggests without support -- also seemingly OR, and this source seems to suggest that he may be incorrect or at least was so as of August 13, 2008). SYN-like "deduction" from separate assertions within one source may or may not have been behind the insertion of the removed assertion. If the assertion was based on a source which asserted in a straightforward manner that endangered gray wolves are present in YNP, and if that source were cited, the insertion would be proper and the removal of the assertion would be improper. If the Page 15 source I mentioned does say that gray wolves are not endangered in YNP (not easy to tell, and it looks like a primary source -- not usable to refute a secondary source), the assertion (if supported) should stand. Now (finally getting to the point), the question as I understand it is if the assertion had been supported by a secondary source saying at separate points that (1) gray wolves are endangered and (2) there are gray wolves in YNP (e.g., perhaps this or this) then would it be proper to assert that endangered gray wolves are present in YNP (making a SYN-like "deduction" from separate assertions within the source)? Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 00:44, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

I am only replying to the final part. If the same source mentions gray wolves, that they are endangered, and their presence in YNP, then we can say there are gray wolves in YNP and they are endangered. But if one source tells us there are gray wolves in YNP, and another source tells us that gray wolves are endangered without mentioning YNP, then it would be SYN for us to say the YNP gray wolves are endangered. If the contention that YNP gray wolves are endangered is supported by scientific evidence, and it is important and notable, a reliable source will make that point for us. If no reliable source bothers to do so, we may not be the first to present it. Crum375 (talk) 01:18, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

I mostly agree with Crum, but maybe not 100%. If one source tells us that there are gray wolves in YNP, and another source tells us that gray wolves are endangered without mentioning YNP, then I think that it should be acceptable to write:--Gautier lebon (talk) 07:59, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Gray wolves are found in Yellostone National Part (source). That species is an endangered species (source).

The above assessment is correct with the exception that the second sentence is not relevant to the article and even by separating them, leaves the impression that Wolves in Yellowstone are Endangered. This is the definitive source for the facts. No interpretation of those facts is necessary and they are supported by a boatload of more technical public documents. Older sources may differ, but as of June 2010, this source gives us the defintive status of the Gray Wolf. The addition of the endangered status of the wolf, absent a lengthy explanation (inappropriate for the article), in the context of the Yellowstone article is simply SYNTH by stealth leaving the false impression that Wolves are endangered in Yellowstone. They are not.--Mike Cline (talk) 10:42, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

I agree that the statement should be removed, for 3-4 reasons. WP:nor is probably the weakest of them, but the easiest to use as it's wording has unwittingly made it a magic bullet to selectively knock out anyone's choice from about 90% of Misplaced Pages for whatever motivation. The other reasons are that the "endangered" statement is deceptive at best, and IMO, in the context of precise writing, false. And then the net result is a NPOV violation. North8000 (talk) 11:27, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

In the box above I believe sticking in the statement about grey wolves being endangered is a clear example of synthesis. It should simply not be stuck in there. As others have said if it was relevant to Yellowstone some reliable source would have made the connection. Such a juxtaposition might give something that is true but that is not the business of Misplaced Pages. And I've too often seen these 'reasonable' juxtapositions used by POV pushers, conspiracy theorists and the like to defend their silly insertions. The policy is no synthesis, it hasn't been changed, there is no real movement to change any part of it, it is part of what editors should do on Misplaced Pages if they are to conform with the WP:Five pillars. This is an encyclopaedia not a place for original thought. Dmcq (talk) 12:05, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Dmcq is correct. The boxed example above is a textbook case of "SYN by juxtaposition", which is warned against in the policy. Unless there is a reliable source which has mentioned the two items in the same context, we may not do so either, to advance a position. The prohibition against SYN is not only for explicit new points, but for implicit ones as well. By juxtaposing the two items, we are making an implicit point (actually two, if you include "that it's relevant"), and therefore need a reliable source which directly makes that point for us. Crum375 (talk) 13:43, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

I have not been following this, but for something related see this. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 13:42, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

The wolves in YNP situation could also be fixed by adding a line that says, "Although gray wolves are categorized as an endangered species in the U.S., the gray wolf population in YNP is so robust that gray wolves there are not categorized as endangered." (reliable source) Ghostofnemo (talk) 00:12, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

You'd need a source making exactly this point. Otherwise, it would be SYN by advancing a position without a direct supporting source. This is the essence of SYN. Crum375 (talk) 00:17, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Simply replace "endangered" with "elsewhere endangered". Then it would become a statement that wiki-lawyering might dispute, (until laboriously referenced) but common-sense consensus would let stand as it would have credibility as being accurate and truthful, a Misplaced Pages mission level concept foreign to the myopic detailed level of Misplaced Pages policy wording. North8000 (talk) 02:02, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

You'd then need something saying it wasn't endangered in Yellowstone. Some things which are not contentious and obviously help can get in by consensus but it isn't a reason to drive a horse and cart through the policy. Dmcq (talk) 11:30, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

If by "policy" you mean the the specific paragraphs involved, don't look now but millions of carts and horses have already driven through it. 90% of Misplaced Pages violates a strict interpretation of its policies as written at that level. At the granular level, Misplaced Pages policies are not written carefully enough for it to be any other way. It's the higher levels (qualifiers at higher level wording within the policies that say that they are not categorical, plus things like wp:iar, plus most importantly, that most enforcement actions are selective and by consensus) that make otherwise unrealistic policies usable. North8000 (talk) 11:27, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Proposed addition to NOR policy

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I'm closing this discussion per WP:SNOW; nobody has supported the proposal other than the proposer and I doubt anyone will. This would not supplement WP:SYNTH, it would revoke it. You can continue to discuss WP:SYNTH in the section below, but this proposal has failed. Fences&Windows 14:23, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

I object. It's only been open for discussion for a few days. What's the hurry? Ghostofnemo (talk) 05:24, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Statement of facts and simple deduction are not synthesis when the information is reliably sourced and the deductions made are logically sound and do not reach original or misleading conclusions.

• Statement of facts: One of the United Nations' stated purposes is to promote world peace. (reliable source) Since the United Nations was established, there have been 160 armed conflicts.(reliable source) Citizens Against Wars has criticized the U.N. for not doing enough to prevent wars.(reliable source)
• Simple deduction: Pufferoos are a brand of cigarette made in the U.S. (reliable source) The Surgeon General has warned that smoking cigarettes is hazardous to your health. (reliable source) (Note that the Surgeon General does not have to mention Pufferoos by name, since they are obviously members of the same category of objects that the Surgeon General is warning us about.)

I further propose that it appear in the WP:SYN section of the article. Ghostofnemo (talk) 00:39, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose This goes against the very core of WP:SYN and WP:NOR, as well as WP:V. It will encourage editors to use Misplaced Pages as a forum for their favorite agendas. According to WP:SYN, we may not advance a new position, explicitly or implicitly, even if based on a combination of existing sources, unless there is a reliable source directly supporting that position in relation to the article topic. This is the key to SYN. Crum375 (talk) 00:36, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose I don't believe WP:SYN needs rewriting. It merely needs more consistent interpretation and we all need to resist resorting to claims of SYN when it doesn't exist.--Mike Cline (talk) 00:43, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose For the reasons already explained up above. This change would facilitate POV and editorializing by editors attempting to lead the reader to draw certain conclusions.Cptnono (talk) 01:12, 22 June
• Oppose, but don't go away, wp:ver/nor needs changes, and people like you to make them happen While your opening statement, with more careful and operative rewording might be a good change, your 2 examples (which are a part of your proposed changes) illustrate material which should not be in Misplaced Pages. North8000 (talk) 01:46, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose. The proposed addition stands out as a candidate for "poster child" why WP:NOR is one of WP's three core-content policies. ... Kenosis (talk) 05:39, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose For reasons stated above. Logical conclusion for one person is not the same for another. Ghostofnemo continues to search for ways to get his views in articles, despite obvious issues with core policies. Ravensfire (talk) 05:43, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose. Example: "John Smith is a British chef known in the UK for his peppered steak sandwiches. According to People for Ethical Treatment of Animals, meat eaters are at higher risk than vegetarians of dying from colon cancer." And in case anyone argues that PETA is not a reliable-enough source, I'm sure I could find excellent sources for the same point. The whole point of SYN is to prevent editing like this. SlimVirgin 07:38, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

In an article about "beef" however, it would be notable, if true and reliably sourced. Ghostofnemo (talk) 01:44, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

And, more to the point, in an article about any meat product. The research that points to this would not have to name "McDouglas half-kilo burgers" by name if my proposal was adopted. This research would be unmentionable and censored out of the article if the SYN policy is not amended, however.Ghostofnemo (talk) 01:57, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose. It is not the business of Misplaced Pages to make things up. If the connection is important enough then someoneone else will note it. As it is, practically any instances I've seen are people being silly or POV pushing and the implied conclusion is very often just plain wrong. I've enough arguments trying to get them to remove the stuff without them being able to quote a policy back at me to justify what they do. Dmcq (talk) 08:09, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose. Right now, SYN is clear because it flatly overrules putting two sources together and implying a connection. Your proposal requires us to make a determination each time between what is “fact” and what is “opinion” or POV. I'm uncomfortable with the idea of adding another point of contention that can drag out POV fights. Qwyrxian (talk) 04:13, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose. The proposal goes against the spirit of the policy. Only things like routine calculation should be permitted.--Boson (talk) 06:09, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose. "Simple deductions" according to who? This just opens the door to POV pushing and in essence is providing the situations under which synthesis is fine. And that is the wrong direction to be heading in. Agree with others that this clearly violates the spirit of the existing policy and the general spirit of WP:V. You can't verify someone's novel interpretation of facts.--Terrillja _talk 06:59, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

If you'll read the examples above carefully, you'll see that there is no interpretation whatsoever. Ghostofnemo (talk) 07:02, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

"Statement of facts and simple deduction" You wrote it, I quoted it above. Simple deduction means many things to many people, thus this would be interpreted many different ways.--Terrillja _talk 07:04, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose. While individual statments by themselves can be factual and sourced, putting contrary statements back-to-back does imply a connection that may or may not exist, and at the very least is intended to trigger a connection in the mind of the reader. WP:SYN is just fine as it is.DCmacnut<> 13:27, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose Crum375, Terrillja, and Dcmacnut already covered my reasoning well. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 13:37, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Threaded discussion

Such as "Smoking Pufferoos is hazardous to your health"? We can't have that, can we? Ghostofnemo (talk) 01:17, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

We've already had that discussion above, and replied to your points there. It seems we are going around in circles. Crum375 (talk) 01:26, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

IMHO highlighting that aspect in a Puferoos article is soapboxing. a POV violation, probably irrelevant for its paragraph, and bad writing. IMHO that makes it too poor of an example for a WP:NOR discussion, to the point that such occludes such a discussion. North8000 (talk) 01:53, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

If the subject of an article belongs to a class of products which has been scientifically proven to be carcinogenic, and an authority warns people against using them, that seems highly relevant to an article on that subject! Ghostofnemo (talk) 04:44, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Currently policy FORBIDS noting this unless the brand is mentioned by name. Ghostofnemo (talk) 04:45, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

But regardless, it's irrelevant. Seriously, go to any article on a sufficiently notable and broad group or class of things, and there will be significant amounts of criticism against it. It's completely inappopropriate to duplicate the general criticisms on the articles of every single member of the group. That's what links are for; anyone who wants to learn more about cigarettes can follow the handy link back to the article on the broader subject. Someguy1221 (talk) 05:45, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

We simply do not need to have a Pufferoos article crammed with warnings like if you are looking after children or animals please make certain they do not eat Pufferoos stubs as it may make them sick. Dmcq (talk) 08:17, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

It's not petty criticism to point out that a product has been proven to be carcinogenic! Ghostofnemo (talk) 01:48, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

If you'd like to "point" it out, you need to find a reliable source which makes that exact point in relation to the article subject. You may not synthesize that point by inference or deduction from a combination of sources which don't say it directly. If no reliable source has bothered to make this exact point, we shouldn't either, as our mission is to summarize what others have written, without editorializing, embellishing, or synthesizing. Crum375 (talk) 02:20, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Egads, researchers do not specify brand names when they research cigarette smoking. Have you ever seen a news story entitled "Camels found to be health hazard"? No, but there are many about cigarettes in general. Ghostofnemo (talk) 06:56, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Actually, I have. And articles on how they were marketed to kids. Next argument, or have you just decided to follow the rules and quit wasting people's time?--Terrillja _talk 07:01, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Got an example you'd like to share with us? And let's keep this good faith, ok? Ghostofnemo (talk) 07:04, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Oh, I have good faith, but your forum shopping after getting consistently shot down by multiple different editors on different articles as well as ANI and VPT has become tiresome. I mean everyone can't be wrong, can they? There is a difference between good faith and tiring of forum shopping when someone doesn't get the result they want. Over. And over. And over. And over.--Terrillja _talk 07:11, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

I would argue that this goes beyond forum shopping--GoN is actually trying to change the forum rules themselves. He began by saying that his content was include-able. Then he said (on the article pages) that we were misinterpreting policy. After hearing in several different forums that s/he is the one misinterpreting policy, s/he is now trying to change that policy. Now, that's I suppose that any editor is within their rights to try to make such changes, but now that we have what appears to be a pretty strong consensus not to change the rules, along with the prior consensuses (my that's an ugly looking word) about how to interpret that policy, is it possible that we're finally done with this issue? Qwyrxian (talk) 07:16, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

I may be in the minority, but I'm clearly right on this. Stuff is being deleted as SYNTH which is not synthesis at all, except in Misplaced Pages World. The current policy is clearly flawed because it results in censorship of relevant, reliably sourced, NPOV material that involves no synthesis whatsoever. Ghostofnemo (talk) 07:22, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

(added later) I might be inclined to agree with your synthesis/exclusion argument, and editors leaving argument, but you picked a terrible example. The stuff that you want to include has a pile of other problems..POV, soapboxing, irrelevancy to the paragraph, flawed logic and bad writing. North8000 (talk) 11:26, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

The thing is, no one else thinks so. Again, everyone can't be wrong, can they?--Terrillja _talk 07:24, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

I understand Misplaced Pages has lost a lot of editors in the last few years: http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-10403467-93.html 49,000 in three months? Must be just me though... Misplaced Pages couldn't be the problem! 07:35, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Good point. Probably has a lot to do with editors who refuse to move on and edit constructively.--Terrillja _talk 07:38, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

I did a quick google and straight away found for instance an AMA study which speifically names Camels in relation to advertising to children . So instead of going doing your own synthesis how about looking around to see what people are actually doing? If you cnnot stop your synthesis then may I ask you respectfully to cease from contributing to Misplaced Pages. Your synthesis is harmful to Misplaced Pages and takes up other editors time finding an correcting. You posted a very recent question and the consensus is very strongly against you and it is a policy which everyone should normally follow. Your examples are nothing that justifies invoking 'ignore all rules' Dmcq (talk) 07:31, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

THAT'S synthesis! We're talking about Camels causing cancer, singled out as a brand, not advertising cigarettes to children. Ghostofnemo (talk) 07:37, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Camels are a cigarette. Cigarettes cause cancer. Camels have been advertised to children. Camels cause cancer? Ghostofnemo (talk)

I notice this bit in that article about editors leaving. "Many people are getting burnt out when they have to debate about the contents of certain articles again and again," Ortega told the Journal. I think I can do a bit of personal synthesis as regards this discussion. Dmcq (talk) 07:55, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

An example that seems to be related to this discussion. At an editor claims to be able to provide citations statimng that several different things are the oldest instituition in the world. On a strict interpretation of policy, the articles on each of those things would state unequivocally that it is the oldest, & only the article on institutions would note the disagreement. (Assuming of course there are no other relevant sources.) Peter jackson (talk) 10:20, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

That's a rather different question, what to do about relevant reliable sources that state something that may not be true. The discussion Misplaced Pages talk:Identifying reliable sources#Identifying Unreliable Sources Against The Law is closer to what you're thinking of. Dmcq (talk) 10:37, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Synthesis is an extremely difficult thing to do; logical reasoning without any subjectivity is an illusion in all but the most trivial cases. I find synthesis very hard myself and would be unwilling to put my syntheses as anything else but original research - and I have published several scientific papers (in journal with decent ISI impact factors - and BTW the fact that syntheses are published already shows that the scientific community considers those as original ideas - which is good thing there!!!) that depend to a large extent on synthesis. Student assignments (MSc level) show that our students have serious problems getting a high level of synthesis together without introducing personal POV etc. Therefore I would strongly oppose any suggestion to allow synthesis. Arnoutf (talk) 20:53, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

I am not suggesting, and have never suggested, that synthesis be allowed. The point of the proposed change was to point out that simple deduction and statement of facts ARE NOT NECESSARILY SYNTHESIS. But currently many things are being deleted because they have been falsely accused of being synthesis, when in fact they are not. And who gave one person the God-like power to kill my proposal on his or her own initiative? Want to kill this in hurry, before the broader community sees it? Ghostofnemo (talk) 05:19, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Well, it met the criteria of WP:SNOW. Consensus was overwhelming and there wasn't a snowball's chance it hell that it would get approved. Leaving it open for longer would only have more people say the same things.--Terrillja _talk 05:31, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

So be it. I'm willing to take that chance. I think we need more eyes on this. Ghostofnemo (talk) 05:42, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

And I think that you are wasting everyone's time. Apparently the admin that closed the one sided discussion thought so as well. There was no reason to continue to offer you a venue for your soapboxing. WP:DEADHORSE for the thousandth time.--Terrillja _talk 05:44, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

If an editor other than Ghostofnemo requests reopening that proposal, I will happily do so. Fences&Windows 16:36, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

Ghostofnemo, I assume that you made the proposal for good of Misplaced Pages. Thank you for doing that. With 13 of 13 respondents opposing it, why not gracefully accept that as written it isn't going to fly? North8000 (talk) 16:49, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

I noticed that the two editors who seemed to catch my drift in the discussion above didn't vote in the poll. I'm not allowed to remind them to vote, am I? Ghostofnemo (talk) 16:53, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

They wouldn't change the consensus even if they agreed with you, and they already made their points here and people didn't suddenly swap to supporting you, so what's the point? Why do you want to stick these things into Misplaced Pages when they obviously aren't wanted? There's other wikis that welcome such creativity with connections. Your points sound like they would be welcome on Conservapedia for instance, I think they probably are against encouraging children to smoke despite being against most big government intervention and liberal thought. Dmcq (talk) 19:11, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

Or we could use common sense and make it clear that synthesis, stating facts and simple deduction are three different things. It's possible that stating facts and simple deduction COULD be synthesis, but it is not necessarily so, and I think the wording I've suggested makes it clear that synthesis and faulty deduction are bad. If someone can suggest better wording (or explain why my wording is not clear enough), that seems like a better solution than suggesting that I quit editing Misplaced Pages and you continue to let people delete relevant, well-sourced and NPOV material by incorrectly labeling it synthesis. Ghostofnemo (talk) 19:22, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

As I stated above "simple" deduction is rather rare. In my view most truly simple deduction is not deleted as synthesis. Simple deduction can carry you away easily though. Follow e.g. this: "Most people do not like health foods (REFS)", "Fruits are very effective health foods (REFS)" HENCE (simple deduction) "Most people do not like fruits". Such a "simple" deduction leads to clearly false conclusions and should therefore be reverted as synthesis. Besides mathematical derivations (which I am sure will not be reverted as synthesis) I can hardly think of a "simpler" deduction than the one I sketched. The case in point, only trivial deduction are simple, and trivial points are unlikely to be reverted anyway. So strong oppose to changing the policy. Arnoutf (talk) 19:31, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

I beg to differ. I've seen perfectly logical stuff deleted by aggressive editors who use SYNTH as maybe the third or fourth reason for deletion because they apparently just didn't like something and wanted it out of the article. And I've seen very few actual cases of synthesis. But maybe we hang out at different types of articles. Check out 9/11 conspiracy theories or MY Ady Gil or Peter James Bethune or Tokyo Two. Ghostofnemo (talk) 19:37, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

"Most people don't like healthy foods. Fruit is a healthy food. Most people don't like fruit." If the first two statements are reliably sourced, but the third isn't, the third line could be excluded as synthesis for that reason. If all three lines are reliably sourced, and no "therefore" is stated, it's just three facts and not synthesis. If a "therefore" is stated, but no reliable source makes that connection, even if each statement is reliably sourced, it's synthesis. Ghostofnemo (talk) 19:46, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

Aha I get your point. That is why in your example you put in as you do

Pufferoos are a brand of cigarette made in the U.S. (reliable source) The Surgeon General has warned that smoking cigarettes is hazardous to your health. (reliable source) (Note that the Surgeon General does not have to mention Pufferoos by name, since they are obviously members of the same category of objects that the Surgeon General is warning us about.)

You carefully avoid making any claims about the actual health of Pufferoos cigarettes.

Well what you are doing here is not an explicit deduction. It is an implied deduction, which by putting arguments together is leading the reader to come to conclusions. While not formally in violation of the Synthesis policy, it is that much leading the reader to make the conclusion him/herself, I can see why the synthesis argument is made. At least if you use a "therefore" sentence, you make it very clear that you are presenting synthesis. My own take would be to revert such haphazard combination of facts that suggest an almost unavoidable deduction/conclusion to the readers. But I would do this based on policies like WP:NPOV, WP:UNDUE, WP:FRINGE etc. rather than using the WP:SYNTHESIS trump. But to be honest, if an editor were to be stubborn in combining artificially related facts I might indeed call upon synthesis.

Let's be straight here. If you make a deduction you should make it adamantly clear in your phrasing (i.e. use a term like "therefore") or keep to integrated facts. Trivial deduction using "therefore" are unlikely to be reverted, while the synthesis policy is tailored to weed out the problematic ones. Trying to change a policy to allow implicit synthesis opens the door to manipulation of a much worse kind in my view, and this only strengtens my strong oppose above.

(PS: The article you quote are particularly sensitive to undue combination of so-called facts so I would even doubt deduction at a mathematical level at some of these pages). Arnoutf (talk) 20:05, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

There are two examples given in the policy proposal. The first is statement of facts. The second is simple deduction. When stating facts, you shouldn't use a "therefore" unless it is called for based on your reliable sources. Readers are intelligent. If there is not a "therefore", why should they assume a logical connection? "Mr. Bean is from England. He drives a Volvo. He is a comedian." Three facts, no connection implied or stated. The simple deduction involves smoking. It's clear that Pufferoos are hazardous to your health. This is not synthesis. No "therefore" is needed because it's obvious that Pufferoos are cigarettes. I agree that it's tricky to know when a "therefore" is needed, but native speakers seem to manage. Ghostofnemo (talk) 21:01, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

You (obviously a native speaker) carefully avoided the statement "Pufferoos are hazardous to your health" in your example. You left that as an implicit deduction to be made by the reader (see my point above). However, Pufferoos may actually be the only non-hazardous brand of cigarettes in the world. This would not make the warning of Surgeon General untrue, or irrelevant (as it would still refer to 99.99% of the cigarettes) but it would make the inference untrue; therefore the word "therefore" is an essential addition to arrive at the conclusion that Pufferoos are unhealthy. Scientists, and other educated people, seem to manage to pick up the tricky issue of when it is important to use words like "therefore" even in other languages than their own native tongue. Arnoutf (talk) 21:28, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

As a sidebar, there is also faulty logic at work in the described deductions. If it is sourced that "Jane Smith Says that all guys are jerks", and it is sourced that John Jones is a guy, it is NOT a logical deduction to say that "Jane Smith said that John Jones is a jerk. The logical argument above is founded on the (faulty) premise that the final statement was merely one of what Jane's classification of John is, IF she had perfectly understood and meant the scope of her original statement. In reality, the final statement is that Jane specifically applied this classification to John, which is a different statement with a different meaning, and which is false. North8000 (talk) 03:49, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

I fully agree, and that is why we should not allow deductions in, they may too easily revert to false logic. Arnoutf (talk) 08:50, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

I think editors can separate the wheat from the chaff. Are you really saying, "Ban all deduction, because some people use faulty logic?" That seems like a rather odd solution. Why not ban faulty logic and allow valid deductions? The proposed policy addition makes it clear that faulty deduction is not allowed. Ghostofnemo (talk) 12:05, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

I think that one of the things we're saying is that one sentence can say many things at once...explicitly, implicitly, and implicitly via it's juxtaposition with others. This makes true deduction rules hopelessly complex to apply rigorously, and easily misused. WP rules are usually interpreted and enforced by consensus. My guess is that if you put in a statement (via juxtaposition or whatever) that was absolutely, simply, perfectly and solidly deductive, and not representing pursuit of another agenda, and not in the middle of a wiki-war about something else, it would probably stay in. Misplaced Pages is full of this. If it's soapboxing, POV pushing or rife with other issues such as your examples, consensus would be to enforce the rules thoroughly and it will go. North8000 (talk) 12:45, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

But with the current policy, a hostile editor can delete a perfectly sound and logical edit and claim that, technically, it violated WP:SYNTH because the subject of the article is not mentioned by name in a source, or because, in that editor's subjective opinion, the edit is leading the reader to a conclusion that is not stated. Ghostofnemo (talk) 12:49, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

My proposal raises the bar on deletions. They have to make the case that synthesis or faulty logic is actually present. Ghostofnemo (talk) 12:51, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

What part of Oppose do you not understand? I already have enough problems with editors persistently trying to stick in their 'straightforward calculations allowed by the policy' into maths articles where they are totally wrong and unfounded and provably so. Dmcq (talk) 13:27, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Do you think it's a better practice to delete someone's contribution and just label it "SYNTH", or to explain to them the error in their logic? What if they are able to prove they're right? Ghostofnemo (talk) 15:25, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

All that has been said here, including comments by Ghostofnemo, and the last editor who notes that even straightforward mathematical deduction causes problems, has strengthened my opinion that this should be opposed. I think all has been said (repeatedly even), so this is it for me. Arnoutf (talk) 14:42, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

I actually do go to some trouble to try and explain my reversions properly if a person isn't an obvious vandal. In some cases though where multiple tries by me and others aren't enough it does feel as though they're just trying to get some sort of vampiric half life by draining the life out of others. Dmcq (talk) 16:00, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

I kno the feeling it sometimes feels like the trolls, pov pushers, and just mis-informed editors think they can win by attrition warfare. Arnoutf (talk) 16:15, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

I know the feeling. When folks are pushy about putting and keeping crap in, then I think that it should remain easy to take crap out. And then when I see really destructive people using wiki-lawyering to take out, delete or over-tag stuff for bad purposes (POV pushing, general anti-social behavior) then I think that they should make it a bit harder for them to take stuff out or over-tag it. North8000 (talk) 21:13, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

I think that is the key - is it really crap? If so it should be deleted. But if it is relevant to the article, reliably sourced and NPOV, I think deleting it as SYNTH (or COATRACK) should require pointing out exactly how they are STATING an ORIGINAL CONCLUSION (or how it is IRRELEVANT to the article). Ghostofnemo (talk) 09:23, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

A theme of several of the ideas that I have been promoting is that the process would be that the person knocking it out would have to make at least a brief/cursory challenge or complaint about what they are taking out in addition to just citing the (granular level) rule. This is changing a matter of process rather than changing the underlying rule, and is sort of a "middle ground" on this issue.North8000 (talk) 13:00, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

WP:EDIT and WP:BRD do encourage that sort of thing but there isn't a requirement to go into any great detail for a first level action which a person considers uncontroversial. Like removing synthesis and pointing to the policy. Dmcq (talk) 13:31, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

I think that the difference is that my ideas would require the deleter to also JUST mention an issue/complaint in addition to just that it in sourced. North8000 (talk) 14:52, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

I would be very much against any such requirement. The main onus is on people who make changes to defend them if other people don't like them. Also any content addition may require justification. It just would not be reasonable to require people to jump though hoops to revert new edits. And I'm someone who tries to justify my reverts instead of just doing the minimum by WP:BRD. The consensus would be strongly against any such change I believe. Dmcq (talk) 15:31, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Just to be clear, I had emphasized that my idea would require only a brief cursory challenge / complaint when making the deletion, I would certainly not call that "jumping through hoops". I am not actively pursuing or proposing this this idea now. North8000 (talk) 15:43, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

OK, so let's take the examples given in the proposal above. Exactly how am I STATING and ORIGINAL OPINION with these edits?

• "One of the United Nations' stated purposes is to promote world peace. (reliable source) Since the United Nations was established, there have been 160 armed conflicts.(reliable source) Citizens Against Wars has criticized the U.N. for not doing enough to prevent wars."(reliable source)
• "Pufferoos are a brand of cigarette made in the U.S. (reliable source) The Surgeon General has warned that smoking cigarettes is hazardous to your health." (reliable source)

And I'll even concede that in the second example, I am clearly implying "Therefore, Pufferoos are hazardous to your health." However, that is not an original opinion - that is the Surgeon General's opinion, since he feels ALL cigarettes are hazardous to one's health.Ghostofnemo (talk) 04:50, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm not going to investigate what twisting you've applied to the first. We've been through the Pufferoos example, it is clear synthesis. If you are unable to figure that out by now let alone be aware of it in normal editing you really do need to stop causing disruption in Misplaced Pages by going and doing something else instead. Dmcq (talk) 08:09, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Ghostofnemo, time to move on. IMHO maybe you have a valid argument to make, but you have sunk it from the start by choosing examples which should clearly should get taken out on other grounds (POV pushing, soapboxing, relevance to the paragraph) even if the wp:nor rules did not exist.

So, once again, labeled as violating various policies, but no arguments to back those accusations up. Ghostofnemo (talk) 13:23, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Actually, I think it's that we've already explained, and are too bored to explain again. By the way, you're totally proving the Family Guy principle of comedy--working on OR/SYNTH with you started out annoying, then got funny, then it kept going, and become unfunny...but yesterday when I read you re-raising the same analogies, it got funny again.Qwyrxian (talk) 21:52, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Yellowstone again

I've read carefully the disucssion above, and thought about it some more. I'd like to go back to the Yellowstone/Wolves situation. Surely we all agree that Misplaced Pages policies are fully respected if the article on Yellowstone contains the following:--Gautier lebon (talk) 09:29, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

article on Yellowstone
blah blah
Gray wolves are found in Yellowstone National Park (reliable citation 1).

And surely we all agree that Misplaced Pages policies are fully respected if the article on Gray Wolves contains the following:--Gautier lebon (talk) 09:29, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

article on Gray Wolves
blah blah
Gray wolves are an endangered species (reliable citation 2).

Now it seems to me very legitimate to include in the article on Gray Wolves additional information, for example the fact that they are found in Yellowstone. Since Reliable Citation 1 says that Gray Wolves are found in Yellowstone, it seems to me that Misplaced Pages policies would be fully respected if the article on Gray wolves contains the following:--Gautier lebon (talk) 09:29, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

article on Gray wolves
blah blah
Gray wolves are an endangered species (reliable citation 2). Gray wolves are found in Yellowstone National Park (reliable citation 1).

If it is correct that the above respects Misplaced Pages policies, then I find it difficult to understand why the symmetric situation does not respect Misplaced Pages policies, that is, why the following is not acceptable:--Gautier lebon (talk) 09:29, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

article on Yellowstone
blah blah
Gray wolves are found in Yellowstone National Park (reliable citation 1). Gray wolves are an endangered species (reliable citation 2).

Please note that I fully understand the objection: the above is "synthesis" because no source about Yellowstone mentions that Gray wolves are endangered, and the article is about Yellowstone so including information from Reliable Citation 2 constitutes impermissble syntheses.--Gautier lebon (talk) 09:29, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

But it seems to me that the universe of discourse of the article on Yellowsone is in fact "Yellowstone and its wildlife". So it should be permissible to include in the article information that comes from sources that discuss either Yellowstone or the wildlife that is found in Yellowstone.--Gautier lebon (talk) 09:29, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

More fundamentally, all Misplaced Pages editors are selecting, summarizing, and paraphrasing information found in sources. They do that in order to present a complete and coherent summary of information about some topic. Surely they should be allowed to use information from all sources that discuss the topic. So it seems to me that it comes down to defining what the topic is. If the topic is "Yellowstone and its wildlife", then it seems to me that the information on wolves from Reliable Citation 2 should be allowed in the article on Yellowstone, even though Reliable Citation 2 does not explicitly mention Yellowstone.--Gautier lebon (talk) 09:29, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Even if the topic was Animals in Yellowstone it would be inappropriate to start listing things about animals which don't reference Yellowstone as well. The links are there so the reader can click on Grey wolf if they want to know about it in general rather than in relation to Yellowstone. That title is not equivalent to Animals or Yellowstone. Dmcq (talk) 09:52, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Gautier lebon - Although your reasoning is sound it ignores the real context here. It is that context that makes combining Endangered and Wolves and Yellowstone in the same set of thoughts in the Yellowstone article problematic. Yellowstone has essentially become a Summary Style article (And a very long one to boot). As such, great care is taken not to overload the article with extensive detail for any one aspect. In the fauna section, you'll note the links to: Wolf reintroduction and History of wolves in Yellowstone, both articles that adequately and in detail discuss wolves, yellowstone and endangered in the proper context. Because that context is historically complex, it is inappropriate to the high level (summary style) Yellowstone article. Therefore, although the ideas Wolves, Yellowstone, and Endangered can all be supported by reliable sources, the concise inclusion of those ideas in the Yellowstone article, without the proper explaination of the real facts creats an implication that is simply factually incorrect. As they say on AMC--Story Matters, well in OR and SYN, Context matters.--Mike Cline (talk) 10:31, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

This particular policy aside, "endangered" is ambiguous and in this particular use that ambiguity is important to the extent that the statement is misleading, and the implied statement (that wolves are endangered in that location) is false. North8000 (talk) 11:13, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Outdent. Thank you for the comments above. Both Dmcq and Mike provide various valid reasons for not changing the real Yellowstone article. I apologize for not having been clear enough in my original comment above. I was not proposing any changes to the real Yellowstone article. I was only using that as an example to discuss the finer points of the policy on no Synthesis.--Gautier lebon (talk) 09:13, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

Both Mike and North state that the juxtaposition of valid information may, in and of itself, be misleading. In particular, North states that the juxtaposition imples that "wolves are endangered in Yellowstone" which is false. It seems to me that the conclusion "it is false that wolves are endangered in Yellowstone" would be inappropriate synthesis. Recall that synthesis is defined as:--Gautier lebon (talk) 09:13, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources. If one reliable source says A, and another reliable source says B, do not join A and B together to imply a conclusion C that is not mentioned by either of the sources.

Source A says that there are wolves in Yellowstone. Source B says that wolves are endangered. It is not necessarily the case (1) that wolves are not endangered in Yellowstone or (2) that there are no wolves anywhere else. The sources are not inconsistent with various hypotheses, including for example that wolves are endangered precisely because they are found only in Yellowstone, or that they are endangered even though they are still found in Yellowstone.--Gautier lebon (talk) 09:13, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

It seems to me that the policy on synthesis applieds to editors, not to readers. We the editors should provide reliable information, and we the editors should not engage in synthesis as defined in the policy. That is, we the editors should not combine fact A with fact B to deduce fact C. But I don't see why we the editors should try to prevent the reader from deducing whatever she or he wants. Back to the example, it is undisputed that (A) there are wolves in Yellowstone and (B) wolves are endangered. From the cited sources, we don't know what "endangered" means. I agree with Mike, context is critical. But (in this hypothetical example) we don't know in what context wolves are "endangered". So all we can do is to report the fact. By NOT reporting the fact, we are engaging in a form of negative synthesis: we make it difficult for the reader to realize that there is more to the story than the fact that there are wolves in Yellowstone. Of course the reader can always go somewhere else to get the information. But, in my view, our objective should be that Misplaced Pages contains as much relevant information as possible, so that the reader does not need to go elsehwere.--Gautier lebon (talk) 09:13, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

To summarize, I have no problems with arguments against including "wolves are endangered" on the grounds that it is not relevant, or whatever. But I simply do not think that this is an example of prohibited synthesis, because the editor has not make any synthesis, and the policy only applies to editors.--Gautier lebon (talk) 09:13, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not in the busines of making up the news. Your synthesis may be true and very important to know, but unless reliable sources make the connection we should not make the connection. Making the connection is original research. Exactly what would be your ground for including the fact that wolves are endangered except that you felt it was important to include? If editors just included anything they felt was important irrespective of whether anybody had noted it in a reliable source this would very rapidly become a blog of people's latest thoughts on things. Dmcq (talk) 09:31, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

My point is that all Misplaced Pages editors make choices regarding what to include or not to include in an article. They select material from one or more sources. Editors decide which material to include, based on whether or not they think it is relevant, appropriate, interesting, important etc. If a single source included both the statements "wolves are found in Yellowstone" and "wolves are endangered", the editors whould have to decide whether or not to include both statements. I don't see how the situation is different merely because the two statements appear in different sources. I agree that material should not be included merely because editors think it is important. Material should be included only if it is found in a reliable source. But that is the case in this hypothetical example. The only issue is that the two statements are not found in a single source, but I still don't see why that should prevent the material from being included. Most Misplaced Pages articles include citations from multiple sources.--Gautier lebon (talk) 23:25, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

Good points, but, in many cases (including the example) juxtaposition of two statements is creation of statement which is subject to the guidelines North8000 (talk) 23:48, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

It would still be synthesis if the statements aren't logically related to each other in the source, for instance if they were in different chapters in a book on wildlife then it would very probably be a synthesis. If one is in a chapter about the other then it probably wouldn't. There is judgement involved but editors should try to err on the strict side of caution about synthesis if they think they may have any strong feelings about the subject or it controversial in any way. Have you the idea of what synthesis is yet? It isn't just a prohibition on a particular logical juxtaposition of different sources, lets see how else the statements can be arranged. It is a prohibition against implying anything more than the original authors meant. One's own thoughts are original research as far as Misplaced Pages is concerned. Dmcq (talk) 07:07, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

I fully understand that one's own thoughts are original research and I fully understand that implying more than the original authors meant would constitute prohibited synthesis. That is not my point. My point is that it may well be the case (and indeed it is often the case) that combing information from two or more sources is neither original research nor "synthesis" is the sense of implying more than the original authors meant. Think about the Yellowstone wolves example again (and, once more, I'm not proposing to modify the actual Yellowstone article, I'm only using this as an example to discuss the policy). How does saying "Wolves are found in Yellowstone. Wolves are endangered." imply more than the original authors meant? The statements in question are exactly what the original authors meant. So I still don't understand why that particular example should be considered prohibited synthesis.--Gautier lebon (talk) 19:24, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

By juxtaposition, you are making the (implied) statement that wolves are endangered in Yellowstone, which is not supported by either source. North8000 (talk) 19:54, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

No, I the Editor am not making any such implied statement. It is you the Reader who is drawing an inference. But surely that is the point of an encylopedia: to provide information to readers so that they can draw their own conclusions. If Misplaced Pages does not provide, in a logical and easily accessible place, the information that wolves are endangered, then the readers will not be able easily to consult the sources and draw their own conclusions. The key point here is that, in my view, juxtaposition is not equivalent to inference, and I believe that the Synthesis policy should be clarified in that respect.--Gautier lebon (talk) 15:01, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

A policy in[REDACTED] describes the consensus of editors, it isn't a written rule to try and game. It is ingenuous to say you are not making a connection when you want to draw readers attention to it. Anyway we are not in the business of drawing readers attention to things which pother people have not thought worth drawing the readers attention to. Dmcq (talk) 18:00, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Of course policies are not meant to be gamed. My point is that, in my view, the policy is not clear and results in good-faith editors being confused. I think that I now understand what the problem is, please see below the new section on Syllogism vs Juxtaposition (). Regarding what business we are in, I agree that relevance is a key criterion for deciding what to include or not. I have no issue with an argument to the effect that "wolves are endangered" is not relevant in an article on Yellowstone: that point can and should be discussed. What I have a problem with is the argument that the statement "wolves are endangered" constitutes prohibited synthesis. Again, please see the new section below.--Gautier lebon (talk) 10:17, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Without revisiting every topic on this, synthesis rules do not apply to writing in talk pages. And the critique of my TALK PAGE page sidebar statement about Wolves not being endangered in Yellowstone violating wp:synthesis is not correct. North8000 (talk) 12:05, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

I came across a similar phenomenon a while back when Viriditas spent a lot of time attacking a citation on my user page. Peter jackson (talk) 15:34, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

Mathematics?

I distinctly remember reading — and I'm pretty sure that it was at WP:SYNTH — something about mathematical calculations being exempted as long as the editors of a page could agree that the calculations were done properly. Was that removed from this page, or did I read it somewhere else? Nyttend (talk) 15:50, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

See Misplaced Pages:No original research#Routine calculations. If you do some really complicated maths that isn’t referenced to a source then that is original research, but routine calculations are OK, so long as editors agree they are done right. Yaris678 (talk) 16:12, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

I cut out the really and just leave complicated, and if the editors can't agree then only the most simple basic stuff is allowed. For instance there are problems saying what age a person is just given the year of birth so one shouldn't make that calculation. Simple means things like for instance converting between kilometers and miules though even here there can be problems with getting the implied accuracy of the figures right. For instance converting 500 kilometers to about 310 miles and 1207 yards just doesn't look right normally Dmcq (talk) 16:44, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Year of birth is not complicated. E.g. if you know someone was born 1 Jan 2000, that person is now 10 yrs old. If the person is born 1 december 2000, the person is 9 yrs of age. If a person is born in 2000 (no further details) the person is 9 or 10 yrs old. The last version requires some discipline, but the calculation is not particulary tough.

That not withstanding, I fully support a strict SYNTH policy, even for mathematics. We need to be strict as many colleague editors are not very sure how evidence from sources is different from original research. Synthesis is a particularly frequently violated policy as many editors truly do not see why that is OR. Arnoutf (talk) 17:41, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

What does the adverb explicitly really mean?

The policy on Original Research, in particular the section on Synthesis WP:SYN contains the phrase: Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources. The adverb (explicitly) and adjective (explicit) is routinely used by many editors in discussions about sources, synthesis, notability, etc.

The dictionary definition of explicit is: fully and clearly expressed or demonstrated; leaving nothing merely implied; unequivocal

But given that definition, its interpretation could range from the literal, word for word, character for character replication of a conclusion to Yes, the material presented in the source generally makes the same conclusion as it stated.

So what does it really mean and are we interpreting it in consistent way? Given the context of the SYN policy above, which, if any, of the following examples could claim that the conclusion is not stated explicitly in Source C.

1. Source A says New York City is a city, the largest in its state (state is unspecified in source A), Source B says: New York City is in New York State. Editor concludes and writes: New York City is the largest city in New York State. Source C says New York State has many large cities, the largest of which is New York City. Is the editor’s conclusion, explicitly supported by source C?
2. Source A says New York City is a city, the largest in its state (state is unspecified in source A), Source B says: New York City is in New York State. Editor concludes and writes: New York City is the largest city in New York State. Source C, the largest city in New York State is New York City. Is the editor’s conclusion, explicitly supported by source C?
3. Source A says New York City is a city, the largest in its state (state is unspecified in source A), Source B says: New York City is in New York State. Editor concludes and writes: New York City is the largest city in New York State. Source C, New York City, the largest in New York State is not the state capital. Is the editor’s conclusion, explicitly supported by source C?

I know what synthesis is, but I wonder if we interpret explicitly consistently when evaluating content for synthesis? How far away from the literal should we or can we stray when looking for explicit statements?--Mike Cline (talk) 02:01, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

In each of your examples, drawing a conclusion from A and B would be a synthetic conclusion... however since the statement "New York City is the largest city in New York State" is explicitly supported by source C, there is no need to cite A or B or draw a conclusion from them. Just state the facts and cite source C. (or have I missed something in your examples). Blueboar (talk) 02:22, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Blueboar, you have not missed anything from the examples, but misinterpreted my question. It was not how to cite this type of situation, the question: is the conclusion made by the editor from source A and B explicitly stated in source C. If this was real situation and an editor failed to cite source C and was challenged, and then brought source C forward to support his conclusion, would that conclusion be supported as stated explicitly in source C. The question was about the interpretation of the word explicity not how to actually deal with content in an article.--Mike Cline (talk) 02:41, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

I understand "explicit" (and the dictionary definition you give) to mean 'the opposite of "implicit"', i.e. the fact, opinion, or whatever must actually be stated; that does not mean that the information may not expressed using different words, provided that the paraphrase does not distort the meaning. --Boson (talk) 06:33, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Syllogism vs Juxtaposition

I think that an issue might be a conflation of (and perhaps even a confusion between) syllogism and juxtaposition. A syllogism is a logical argument. It can take many forms, of which the simplest is: "All men are mortal. Socrates is a man. Therefore Socrates is mortal." There are formal rules establishing when syllogisms are or are not valid, but in complex cases it is not always obvious how to apply the rules.--Gautier lebon (talk) 10:37, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

The statment "Wolves are found in Yellowstone. Wolves are endangered." is not a syllogism, because the second sentence is not a subset of the first. There is no relation (in the sense of formal logic) between the two parts of the statement, so no inferences can be drawn. The statement is a simply juxtaposition of facts, not a syllogism.--Gautier lebon (talk) 10:37, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

From the comments made above, it seems to me that some editors are concerned that readers will fall into the false syllogism trap and draw conclusions when none were intended and none should have been drawn. One example of a false syllogism is a statement of the form "some A are B, some B are C, therefore some A are C". The conclusion is incorrect. For instance, while some cats (A) are black (B), and some black things (B) are televisions (C), it does not follow from the parameters that some cats (A) are televisions (C).--Gautier lebon (talk) 10:37, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

In the Yellowstone example, some people have stated that the juxtaposition of "Wolves are found in Yellowstone" with "Wolves are endangered" might lead readers to draw inferences about wolves being endagered in Yellowstone. Any such inference would be a syllogistic mistake. The juxtaposition of the statements does not justify using them as a syllogism.--Gautier lebon (talk) 10:37, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

So the real question is "to what extent do we have to protect people from their own mistakes". I submit that we should assume that Misplaced Pages readers are neither stupid nor ignorant. That is, we should NOT assume that thye will systematically make syllogistic mistakes.--Gautier lebon (talk) 10:37, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Consequently, I would submit that mere juxtaposition of verifiable statements does NOT constitute prohibited synthesis.--Gautier lebon (talk) 10:37, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

But I do agree that some (or maybe most) syllogisms do constitute original research and should not be allowed (unless of course the syllogism is found as a whole in the citation). I say this because many syllogisms are complicated and it is not easy to tell whether they are correct or not. So I would say that, in general, syllogisms constitute prohibited synthesis.--Gautier lebon (talk) 10:37, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

However, I would propose that an exception be allowed for simple syllogisms that anybody can verify. This is akin to the exception for routine calculations. For example, if there were reliable citations for the statements "All men are mortal" and "Socrates is a man", then the following conclusion would be permitted "Therefore Socrates is mortal". That is, this trivial syllogism would be permitted, as an exception to the general policy prohibiting syllogisms.--Gautier lebon (talk) 10:37, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

GL, interesting take. Although the Yellowstone example is not (nor will it be a contentious issue), is does provide interesting fodder for this policy discussion. The genesis of the example comes from this specific paragraph:

• Current form: Yellowstone is widely considered to be the finest megafauna wildlife habitat in the lower 48 states. There are almost 60 species of mammals in the park, including the gray wolf, the threatened lynx, and grizzly bears. Other large mammals include the bison (buffalo), black bear, elk, moose, mule deer, white-tailed deer, mountain goat, pronghorn, bighorn sheep and mountain lion.

• Previous form: Yellowstone is widely considered to be the finest megafauna wildlife habitat in the lower 48 states. There are almost 60 species of mammals in the park, including the endangered (my emphasis) gray wolf, the threatened lynx, and grizzly bears. Other large mammals include the bison (buffalo), black bear, elk, moose, mule deer, white-tailed deer, mountain goat, pronghorn, bighorn sheep and mountain lion.

When the source was first used (2006), the wolf population that occupied Yellowstone was indeed listed as endangered and the previous statement was both factual and conveyed an accurate conclusion. However, when the endangered status of the wolves changed in 2009 for the population in Yellowstone, the NPS did not chose to change the source verbage, which is still factually correct. As we are not concerned here if sources imply a false conclusion, the NPS source is still valid. However, since other more recent and accurate sources are available re the endangered status of the wolf in Yellowstone, the removal of word endangered from the statement is appropriate to forego the reader drawing an incorrect conclusion (a synthesized conclusion). A detailed explanation of that would be appropriate for the talk page, but not within the content context of the article. I think it is always important to discuss synthesis issues in the context they are in and sources in the context of time and relevance, as well as realize that something may be synthesis in one context, is not in another.--Mike Cline (talk) 13:47, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

In an article about Socrates it would be original research to deduce from "All men are mortal" and "Socrates is a man", that "Therefore Socrates is mortal". Firstly why is "All men are mortal" in there in the first place since it doesn't mention Socrates? Is Socrates mentioned in relation to that statement in the citation? Secondly why are we pointing out that "Socrates is mortal" if nobody else has thought it worthy of note? If it was worth pointing out someone else would have done so and we would have a citation. Dmcq (talk) 14:53, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

If it wasn't that we actually have reliable sources advancing the above argument about Socrates I would tag the above as synthesis which would output

This article may contain previously unpublished synthesis of published material that conveys ideas not attributable to the original sources.

As it is I would probably want an attribution. Who actually said it? All I can find is

All men are mortal. Socrates was mortal. Therefore, all men are Socrates.

by Woody Allen. Dmcq (talk) 16:51, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

The statement "All men are mortal. Socrates was mortal. Therefore all men are Socrates." is a good example of a false syllogism.--Gautier lebon (talk) 11:32, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Most likely Aristotle. Peter jackson (talk) 17:35, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Outdent. Regarding the comment above

Firstly why is "All men are mortal" in there in the first place since it doesn't mention Socrates? Is Socrates mentioned in relation to that statement in the citation? Secondly why are we pointing out that "Socrates is mortal" if nobody else has thought it worthy of note? If it was worth pointing out someone else would have done so and we would have a citation.

I have no problems with this argument, which is based on relevance. As I've said before, many juxtapositions may indeed be unacceptable because they introduce irrelevant material. But then they should be criticized for that reason, and not because they constitute synthesis as currently defined. I'm thinking that the section on synthesis should be rewritten to state that there are two different types of synthesis: (1) juxtaposition of information from different sources and (2) syllogisms. (1) may lead to the addition of irrelevant material, which is not permitted. (2) is generally not permitted, with some exceptions. Is there any support for this proposal?--Gautier lebon (talk) 11:32, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

The juxtaposition "All men are mortal" and "Socrates is a man" without the third statement is synthesis since it obviously implies "Socrates is mortal" where no such implication was meant in the original sources. Explicitly saying it is also synthesis and more obviouusly original research. Dmcq (talk) 11:47, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Is this synthesis as alledged?

Here is an interesting allegation of synthesis: Talk:History_of_wolves_in_Yellowstone#Original_research_in_the_lead_paragraph. What do others think.--Mike Cline (talk) 02:36, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Mike, I definitely agree with your analysis, which supports my point that the Synthesis policy should be clarified. I've seen too many cases of editors who, in good faith, use the current synthesis policy to challenge material that should be perfectly acceptable.--Gautier lebon (talk) 11:36, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

I think that it is good writing (good organization of the material). And that if there is no REAL WORLD objection to that organization of material, it should stay. But, at the granular level WP:Synthesis is so broadly (=badly) written that 90% of Misplaced Pages violates it, including this. The 3 regulars here will not let the policy get fixed, and the people who want to fix it always get worn down and leave. (sometimes shooting themselves in the foot with a weak spot in their argument-of-the-moment as in Gautier's previous debate here - Gautier, even though I opposed you, I say don't leave!). Until it gets fixed, one end run around the issue is to organize the article with sections along those lines without making the "categorization" statement. I'm using that method at the Dorothy Molter article. North8000 (talk) 11:50, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

I don't think the synthesis policy has problems. The problem at the moment is that[REDACTED] is too individual sentence focused as far as citations is concerned. I'd been meaning to set up a proposal for special recognition of the status of summary statements that summarize material in an article and are based on statements in the article rather than external citations. The criterion there would be whether it is a reasonable summary and fits with the citations rather than being based directly on them. Dmcq (talk) 12:19, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

I agree that it would be good to have a policy regarding the status of summary statements. That would solve some problems.--Gautier lebon (talk) 10:20, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

Policies describe how things are done and the synthesis policy is not interpreted as strictly as that. It is to stop people advancing a position which is not in the sources. Summarizing the article to say there were three phases isn't synthesis at that level. Start up an RfC or take Gavin Collins to Misplaced Pages:No original research/Noticeboard. There you can decide how things are normally done. His quoting the policy there is not the end of the matter as a decision on a noticeboard or RfC is in effect common law for particular cases and if a general pattern emerges should be fed into the policy. Same as if someone says a policy dictates an article should be deleted and it passes AfD then the rule from AfD is contributing to the general consensus on how things are actually done. And if the RfC or noticeboard goes against him and he raises it again report him for disruption to ANI. Dmcq (talk) 12:08, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

What you are describing is the "big picture", with rules being applied by consensus in the various forums and methods outside of simple article talk page use. For the other 90% of the time (when people don't have the wiki-expertise or time to do all of that) with an air of moral superiority, somebody quotes a sentence or two from the policy and deletes the content. Unsourced Statement = OR = deleted/gone. End of story. North8000 (talk) 13:10, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry people are put off by the wikilawyers going around, and especially ones who go endlessly arguing as if their point of view is policy whilst at the same time arguing with everyone else on the talk page of policies despite being told again and again that wahat they say is not consensus. I'm afraid Misplaced Pages is open to all sorts and just trying to tighten up policies is not going to stop these types but it would make it more difficult for ordinary editors to see these wikilawyers are talking nonsense. The synthesis rule is pretty straightforward, don't stick things together to infer or imply a result that other people haven't noticed. Dmcq (talk) 13:36, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Dmcq - thanks for the advice and I have elevated the issue to the noticeboard. I do tend to agree with you that the policy is actually OK as written. What seems to be lacking are some really well thought out essays and tutorials that would help editors learn how to apply the policy consistency. Sounds like something I might tackle. --Mike Cline (talk) 14:26, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Outdent. It appears to me from the above discussion that (1) experienced Misplaced Pages editors are able to interpret the policies correctly, but (2) newcomers may, at times, read the existing Synthesis policy too literally and use it to challenge material that is in fact acceptable. Since the purpose of the policy is to help newcomers to understand how to contribute to Misplaced Pages, it sems to me that it is necessary to rewrite the policy so that even newcomers understand it correcty. Hence I repeat my proposal to clarify that Synthesis is actually referring to two different types of things: (1) juxtaposition of material from separate sources, some of which may not be relevant and therefore should not be included and (2) juxtaposition of material in order to create an implicit or explicit inference (syllogism). That is, we should make it clear that challenges on the basis of lack of relevance are not the same as challenges on the basis of a logicial inference (a syllogism).--Gautier lebon (talk) 10:20, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

I've only come across one editor who consistently interprets it too strictly like that and they are unfortunately long standing and active. Many new editors need to be reined in just a little about making unfounded inferences. The main problem is the ones who have deduced the TRUTH and feel the need to promulgate it via Misplaced Pages or other ones with a strong point of view saying things like somebody is a bigot according to some dictionary definition and say that must be added to their article. Dmcq (talk) 12:34, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

I will agree with Dmcq on this one. The policy is fine. Its application is the problem. As you say, experienced, rational editors know synthesis when they see it and deal with it effectively. Inexperienced editors are just that, inexperienced and when it comes to synthesis they need some mentoring. Changing policy will not make them more experienced. You failed to mention a third category of editor, editors that choses to use Synthesis as a weapon to attack topics and articles they don't like. These editors are ambivalent to the spirit and letter of the policy. In their mind because synthesis is not allowed, alledging it is bad for the articles and topics they don't like, whether it is true or not.--Mike Cline (talk) 13:29, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

I agree with both Dmcq and Mike's analysis, but draw a different conclusion. As Dmcq says, it is important to rein in those who think they have deduced something. That is why I think that the Synthesis policy should explicitly discuss sillogisms. And, as Mike says, some editors use the Synthesis policy to attack things they don't like. That is why I believe that the Synthesis policy should be rewritten to make it clear that relevance is also a criterion: I'm OK with challenges based on lack of relevance, but they should not be couched as attacks against inferences that are not in fact being suggested. It seems to me that making the policy more explicit would improve its application. Isn't worth trying to draft something along the lines I outlined above?--Gautier lebon (talk) 12:51, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

I haven't seen any example from you where I felt any change was in the least desirable. Perhaps we could see an actual example of what we're talking about which might tweak at least a slight feeling of perhaps there's a problem? Dmcq (talk) 15:38, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

I guess that we are not interpreting the data in the same way. It seems to me that the whole discussion above is full of examples which militate in favor of a clarification of the policy. Clearly you do not draw the same conclusion. What are the reactions of others?--Gautier lebon (talk) 10:36, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Newbie

So help a newbie out here. Hypothetical situation, cause it's probably very unlikely. Lets say something crazy happens, like maybe the sky turns florescent green for a day, but not a single soul on the face of the earth reports on it. No verifiable sources, but everybody knows it's happened. Does that then mean that Misplaced Pages cannot have an article on the subject? Extreme situation, I suppose a milder way of asking is can you claim the sky is blue without citing a source.

This would never happen: if the sky did indeed look green for a while, it would be widely reported. We should not discuss a hypothetical situation that would never arise.--Gautier lebon (talk) 10:27, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

Second situation... A large number of verified sources publish a piece of misinformation, intentionally, across the board. Everyone knows it is misinformation. No verified source points out it is misinformation, but everybody just knows because it's just something inherently obvious. Must Misplaced Pages then represent the mistruth as reality in an article if someone decides to create such an article and back it up with their sources? Again, ridiculous scenario, 1984-ish, but I'm trying to get a feel for the reach of the core policies on Misplaced Pages.

Thanks --HeroofTime55 (talk) 05:24, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

How is someone who was asleep for the day to accept that the sky was fluorescent green without reliable sources? That the sky is blue is both common knowledge and easily verifiable. The policies aren't supposed to cover every single case, they just describe common accepted good practice. However I don't think we would be able to include that the sky was green for a day even by invoking WP:Ignore all rules, I'm pretty sure the consensus would be against including it in Misplaced Pages without some reliable source even if everyone agreed it happened. Dmcq (talk) 06:52, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

If the statement is not challenged and not likely to be challenged, a reference would not be necessary. Whether Misplaced Pages could have an article on the event would depend on whether the event is notable. If the sky turned fluorescent green, there would be sources and it would be notable.

The problem with misinformation is probably more likely to be relevant. Religion is an obvious example (presuming that not all religions are right). It might be necessary to achieve consensus (on the Talk page or elsewhere) as to whether a sourced statement is fact or opinion and whether particular positions are given due weight. In such circumstances, the requirements regarding reliable sources might be more stringent, and more discussion might be required. --Boson (talk) 09:05, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

Reliable sources often publish misinformation on the 1st of April. Peter jackson (talk) 09:41, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

Yes I must unveil the conspiracy to hide the existence of spaghetti trees, details oof which were once released from a reliable source. :) Dmcq (talk) 10:00, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Boson. If sources (such as newspapers) that are ordinarily considered reliable publish something, then it can be included in Misplaced Pages. And it is up to the reader to evaluate whether, in this particular case, the information is not reliable despite its publication by a source.--Gautier lebon (talk) 10:27, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

It's good to keep in mind that while this policy does limit what can be published in an article, the other side of the coin, verifiability, is not a a suicide pact. That is, we don't have to publish something simply because it has been published in a reliable source. If a reliable source published an obvious piece of misinformation, which was never retracted, or refuted by other sources, we can form a consensus to simply not write about it. In the course of discussion on a talk page, when you're trying to decide what sources to use and what sources to ignore, you are absolutely permitted to use original research to evaluate the sources. Someguy1221 (talk) 01:15, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

That's the reasonable, common-sense view, but is it actually stated in policy anywhere? Or even guidelines? Peter jackson (talk) 08:52, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

I think the sense of it is more apparent than real. How could we determine that something was an obvious piece of misinformation? Only because we have some source that says it is so. Otherwise, we are in the position of simply not believing what we read. WP:V is quite clear that what editors believe is of no consequence for what can be in the encyclopedia. If, on the other hand, we do have a source that states that something was misinformation, then we have the problem of conflicting reliable sources. That is covered by WP:NPOV, so again our judgment concerning the truth of the matter is not called for. RJC _Contribs 14:05, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Responding to the question from Peter jackson, see WP:IAR. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 01:32, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

I was there that day. It was in the 60s at university after finals. We were all drinking and there was great debate about what the actual color was: Variations of green and Chartreuse (color) I think there was a journalism student in our group so I am surprised it never made the papers.--Mike Cline (talk) 14:33, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

I suspect that it never made the papers because the Nixon Administration ordered the CIA to suppress it ("Mind control is a terrible thing to waste"). Thankfully, the counter-culture has been keeping a memory of this event alive since then (why do you think the band is called "Green Day"). Blueboar (talk) 15:18, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Comments please

A group or state has been accused of a crime by many prominent individuals and organizations. I wish to add the fact that the state or group has never been charged in a court with that crime. I am told I must provide a RS that says "State has never been charged with that crime in any court of law" or else to state it is a matter of synthesis. I would appreciate your views. Stellarkid (talk) 12:46, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

Without more information I think I'd have to side with the ones saying you shouldn't put in the bit about courts. Are there no people defending the state or group? say what they say. If they didn't think that worth pointing out why do you think it is worth pointing out? And exactly how do you know it? By the way the WP:ORN is the best place if you decide to say in particular what you are talking about. Dmcq (talk) 15:48, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

Primary Sources: A question regarding policy

Here is a quote from No original research:

And one from Verifiability:

Aren't these precepts superseded by common practice, particularly in scientific articles? BruceSwanson (talk) 17:19, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

I am not completely sure what you mean here. You show a note which gives a scientific article, which is a reliable source and which gives all the evidence per WP:V you quote.

The primary source is usually not a problem in these cases. The more problematic primary sources are for example published speeches of politicians; which should be indeed treated with care. So what is your specific question here? Arnoutf (talk) 17:27, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

This obviously refers to the ongoing disupte at Zidovudine (AZT) and Talk:Zidovudine. Policies should document the consensus of the community. In this case, they do. "Material" refers to the text of the article - that AZT was synthesized in 1964. You challenged the Horwitz 1964 citation - since the material was already cited to three sources, all reliable, the challenge was somewhat moot. There were two peer reviewed journals, with full citations - author, title, year, journal, volume, issue, pages, and now weblinks and PMID numbers - plus an entire film about the development of AZT as a treatment. The primary source (Horwitz) requires no interpretation since it verifies that he developed a compound, Zidovudine, in 1964. This is supplemented by a second peer reviewed journal article to substantiate this point - and a secondary source at that - as well as the film. Does Horwitz, 1964 verify that Zidovudine was synthesized in 1964? Yes. Does this require interpretation? No. The text itself meets all requirements of WP:PROVEIT - the text was challenged (for not good reason, since it already had a source) and was appropriately attributed to two reliable, published sources in an inline citation with full citation templates (plus a film). AZT is a clear example of the community's practice, 100% in line with the policy. The issue, which has been pointed out to you repeatedly, is that you don't believe the citation is adequate (probably because you, as an AIDS denialist, believe AIDS is caused by AZT rather than HIV) and are attempting to skew the article to a more critical stance - that would be POV-pushing of a fringe theory. You don't appear to like the article because of its stance, and have wasted considerable time on multiple misunderstandings of wikipedia's policies and guidelines, despite numerous editors pointing out your interpretation is incorrect. More won't hurt I suppose, but since you appear more interested in promoting ideology rather than neutrally reporting on the main stream position that HIV causes AIDS and AZT treats it, I doubt this will ever be sufficient and the goalposts will continue to move. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 17:36, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Which aligns with my comment above that it all looks fine and that I do not understand why this point is brought here (and I did not even know the article) Arnoutf (talk) 17:42, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Arnoutf, I might be better able to explain if you will identify a scientific article you are familiar with. I'll take a look at it and see if it has any examples of what I'm talking about . BruceSwanson (talk) 18:00, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

What about Arnoutf's comment regarding this article, which you find problematic but no-one else does? You asked for a review - it was given. What do you think of the review and reply? I think any moderately[REDACTED] editor looking at this specific article, and any similar article, would agree the AZT article does not present any issues regarding the use of Horwitz, 1964. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 18:14, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I am familiar with a lot of scientific articles, I even co-authored a dozen or so. What you mean however is something else entirely, you mean a Misplaced Pages article on a science related topic.

Primary sources are fine to identify facts; and most scientific articles in the natural sciences will give a lot of such facts. However less straightforward interpretation of primary sources is synthesis and hence original research. This is especially cumbersome for social sciences, arts and humanities were there are hardly universally agreed upon facts.

In the case of the article above a scientific article is quoted to provide dates in a timeline. These would be considered facts even in the social sciences and therefore these could be safely used from a primary source per the relevant OR section

So I really do not see any problem or even disagreement between the sections you quote, and hence no question. What is your question? Arnoutf (talk) 18:19, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Take a look again at the AZT article by going to this reference. It's attached to the following sentence: Jerome Horwitz of the Barbara Ann Karmanos Cancer Institute and Wayne State University School of Medicine first synthesized AZT in 1964 under a US National Institutes of Health (NIH) grant. Read the two other footnotes as well. Do any of them provide any actual confirmation of the information in the sentence? What I'm arguing is that the editor who posted them, to be in compliance with The source should be cited clearly and precisely, with page numbers where appropriate, and must clearly support the material as presented in the article should have given page numbers and also a contextual quote, to demonstrate that he had in fact accessed those primary sources. That wasn't done, and there is certainly no reason to believe that editor read the source.

Now take a look at footnote 6 and it's accompanying sentence. Read the citation. Is it making "descriptive statements that can be verified by any educated person without specialist knowledge"? How about the rest of the primary sources -- are they making such statements too? Now it may be that deep in the paper the sentence will be corroborated. But the editor should have provided chapter and page information for the reader to follow. That wasn't done. I don't think it was done in any of the primary sources. Shouldn't editors who want to defend the use of such sources do the work of finding the relevant information and putting it in the citation?

Finally, look how many primary sources there are compared to secondary ones. Doesn't it show that the article is in violation of the precept not to base articles on primary sources? BruceSwanson (talk) 18:50, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Ok this is not about sourcing but about lack of assumed good faith WP:AGF. Doubting even these almost trivial facts is very unhelpful and I think the other editors on the article have done more than their fair share in providing proof. If you really want the exact phrasing, just get the papers quoted and figure it out yourself. My advice: Just let it rest as it seems you are trying Wikilawyering to push a non neutral pov WP:NPOV. Arnoutf (talk) 19:13, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

This misunderstanding has also been explained to BS. He believes that if he can't immediately verify a statement, then it does not apply. He does not understand the difference between a web-available abstract and a full text, and that while the web-available version is a convenience, it is not a necessity. BS objects to having to assume good faith that the editor in question (now three editors) have indeed accurately summarized this incredibly minor and uncontroversial point, yet has not made the trek to a university library, or paid the article access fee, to verify the contents himself. The statements about page numbers is bizarre, considering Broder and Horwitz both have page numbers - and for articles, which are considered sufficiently short as to not need a single page to verify - this isn't an issue. If it were a book, it might be a greater problem. But it's not and the point is both bizarre and absurd. The footnotes don't need to confirm the information directly within the footnote, they need to verify it by presenting a source. The actual confirmation is in the source, and BS has never made the effort to actually find the sources, review them, and state the sources themselves are inaccurately summarized.

Which primary sources aren't reporting basic information? Footnote 6 takes you to Ostertag et al 1974, which has a full-text version, which indeed verifies that Ostertag worked at the Max Planck Institute (author contact information), found that azidothymidine interfered with the Friend virus in mice. That's quite basic information, in fact that's essentially the whole point of the paper.

By the way, journal articles don't have chapters and quotes aren't necessary - they tend to add undue weight to individual citations and clutter up the reflist. BS has failed to point out a single specific error with any of his objections. The article is not based solely on primary sources, and primary sources are used appropriately. This has already been explained, but doubtless another spurios point will be raised immediately after. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 19:15, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

I fully agree with WLU. Ironic though that proofreading; an article BruceSwanson made constructive edits to recently only list a single source, a (by Misplaced Pages standards unreliable) company website. You might expect that someone critisising others upholds the same standards for all articles he is editting on. (unless of course there is a point of view to be advanced) Arnoutf (talk) 19:22, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

What point of view do you think I'm advancing? And how is the company website unreliable? Seems as good as this one. BruceSwanson (talk) 20:45, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

No, the first one is from a commercial company, the second one from a university. So the second one is more reliable than the first one. Of course faculty pages on university websites are not the best of sources either. If you do not see the difference, I think you have just no clue what a reliable source is. Arnoutf (talk) 20:50, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

I don't see the difference. Neither does Misplaced Pages. From Verifiability: Reliable Sources: All self-published sources, whether experts or not, are considered reliable as sources on themselves, especially in articles about themselves, subject to certain criteria, though no article should be based primarily on such sources. . .

Also from the same section:

Self-published or questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves, especially in articles about themselves, without the requirement that they be published experts in the field, so long as:

1. the material is not unduly self-serving;
2. it does not involve claims about third parties;
3. it does not involve claims about events not directly related to the subject;
4. there is no reasonable doubt as to its authenticity;
5. the article is not based primarily on such sources.

The footnote in question merely illustrates that proprietary typesetting-systems exist and companies use them. But you're right about one thing: the proofreading article is substandard. However, it is labeled as such, twice, so you know right where you stand, and reader beware. Would that AZT -- both the article and the drug -- were so labeled as well. But come to think of it, the drug is so labeled. That just leaves the article. BruceSwanson (talk) 22:00, 13 July 2010 (UTC) BruceSwanson (talk) 22:00, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Question 1 regarding primary sources

In the article Forced labor of Germans after World War II I had inserted a short summary of a factual event taken from this publication: United States Department of State

Foreign relations of the United States, 1947.

The British Commonwealth; Europe

Volume III

Washington, D.C.:

U.S. Government Printing Office (1972)

The editors of the book follow the following policy

According to editor Nick-D I was wrong to include my sentence, he removed it and elaborated as follows on the article talk-page.

Statement used out of context

I've just removed this from the article:

In discussions between France and the US in early 1947 regarding whether France should begin repatriating its German prisoners it was noted that of the 740,000 handed over by the U.S. to France for forced labor only 450,000 remained; 290,000 had been "stricken off the rolls".

This is taken from a document from the US government asking the French to explain what happened to these POWs. Without the French explanation, it is not usable by itself. Moreover, Misplaced Pages articles should not be cited to primary sources like this. Nick-D (talk) 07:23, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

1. United States Department of State, Foreign relations of the United States, 1947. The British Commonwealth; Europe Volume III (1947), p. 627

Was Nick-D wrong or right in his interpretation of Misplaced Pages policy as regards that sentence? Are there any other aspecs worth noting, e.g. cases in which state department publications may or may not be used? Nick-D made his position very clear and elaborated, but now I would like to hear the opinion also of others who have grasped the relevant policies and their application.--Stor stark7 20:15, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Well, this is clearly a primary source from the US government. Nick-D seems to doubt whether the US knowledge about French bureaucracy ("stricken off the rolls") makes this a simple fact. With these doubts whether this is a simple fact, primary sources are no longer acceptable per se.

It is a bit of a borderline case though in my view, and in such cases we should err on the side of safety (i.e. if someone raises the point, accept their worry) Arnoutf (talk) 20:54, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Where did you hear about the US government communication from? That would probably be a much better source for the article. The statement should certainly be qualified better as just being according to the US government. Did the French ever reply? That should be included if they did but if they didn't it doesn't stop the US government query being usable. Dmcq (talk) 21:14, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

The source primary document in question is being used without a secondary published source to back it up. The implication is that the 290,000 German POW were dead, in fact they were released. Nick-D and myself made it clear that primary source documents must back up published material in secondary sources. Please allow Nick-D to reply here. --Woogie10w (talk) 21:59, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Question 2 regarding primary sources

• 1. When you write an article about a book, is it OK to use the book itself as a reference, e.g. what is written in the preface of the book by publishers and others about the history of the publishing of that edition and previous editions of the book?

• 2. When you write an article about the book, is it OK to use the book itself as a reference for what it says, e.g. that according to the book so and so many were killed in such and such place?
• I'm thinking of this book by the way.--Stor stark7 20:15, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

if you read the whole on use of primary sources

Re 1: It is very unlikely other editors will objects as these facts can easily be verified otherwise.

Re 2: That is probably ok as well, if you make sure to cite the exact passages. Speculation about what it means however should be avoided (e.g. In the book X reports that Napolean lost 1,000,000 soldiers in his march to Moscow (page 12-14) which sheds some doubts on other historians (ref, ref) who list the Grande Armee of having been never larer than 500,000 /Alternative/ The author must be mistaken as other historians established the maximum size of the Grande Armee at 500,000 (either version of the last part should be avoided as this is analysis of sources)) Arnoutf (talk) 21:02, 13 July 2010 (UTC)