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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Vanished user 2345 (talk | contribs) at 02:36, 30 July 2010 (Christ myth theory mistake). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Oh, hello? Is someone there? Please stay a while. I can't offer you much but I do appreciate the company. Mine is a sad tale. I was reckless, impetuous; I allowed my passions to overrule my reason and in but a flash I found myself here, in this cell, hoping merely that some kind soul might visit from time to time and allow a condemned man a bit of company. My crime, you ask? Well, I suppose the question had to come eventually. Rather than dwell on the sordid details of my shame, sufficed to say I had an argument with a proud and powerful woman. In the heat of the moment I wrote things, and while the words were innocent enough—true enough, too—the very act of my writing nevertheless breathed the close air of my frustration. I had thought that my words would somehow change things, would sober my rival and tip the scales in my favor. What a fool I was. But all that is past (though never far enough past, it seems, for some). I've been here for a time and through my window I can see things changing, sometimes for the better, sometimes not. Despite my indiscretions I still possess some learning, some knowledge that might benefit you. Ask me a question, perhaps I'll know the answer.

Historicity of Jesus faux controversy

As it stands, the first paragraph of that article includes the following sentence: "While scholars often draw a distinction between the Jesus of history and the Christ of faith (and debate what specifics can be known concerning his character and ministry) essentially all scholars in the relevant fields agree that the existence of Jesus as a historical figure can be established using documentary and other evidence."

That statement has recently come under attack on the grounds that the citation provided is biased and needs to be contextualized in such a way that identifies the faith persuasion of the author. The source in view here is Graham Stanton, The Gospels and Jesus (2nd ed.), (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2002) p. xxiii. The relevant quotation is "Today, nearly all historians, whether Christians or not, accept that Jesus existed and that the gospels contain plenty of valuable evidence which has to be weighed and assessed critically. There is general agreement that, with the possible exception of Paul, we know far more about Jesus of Nazareth than about any first or second century Jewish or pagan religious teacher."

While the publisher should be enough to convince all reasonable people that there's nothing tricky going on, nevertheless it could easily be strengthened with these additional sources:

• "Apart from a few Soviet ideologists and some humanists, whose interest is more anti-religious than historical, hardly any serious scholar today denies that Jesus existed."

Schuyler Brown, The Origins of Christianity: A Historical Introduction to the New Testament (rev. ed.), The Oxford Bible Series, (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1993) p. 19

• "I want to say first of all that I am taking it for granted in this chapter that we can actually speak of an historical Jesus. As Graham Stanton has recently written: 'Today nearly all historians, whether Christian or not, accept that Jesus existed and that the gospels contain plenty of valuable evidence which has to be weighed and assessed critically.'"

Mark W. G. Stibbe, John as Storyteller: Narrative Criticism and the Fourth Gospel (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1992) pp. 67-68

• "The data we have are certainly adequate to confute the view that Jesus never lived, a view that no one holds in any case"

Charles E. Carlston, "Prologue", in Bruce Chilton & Craig A. Evans (eds.) Studying the Historical Jesus: Evaluations of the State of Current Research (Leiden: Brill, 1998) p. 3

• "he view that there was no historical Jesus, that his earthly existence is a fiction of earliest Christianity—a fiction only later made concrete by setting his life in the first century—is today almost totally rejected."

G. A. Wells, The Historical Evidence for Jesus (Amherst, NY: Prometheus, 1988) p. 218

• "In the 1910's a few scholars did argue that Jesus never existed and was simply the figment of speculative imagination. This denial of the historicity of Jesus does not commend itself to scholars, moderates or extremists, any more. ... The "Christ-myth" theories are not accepted or even discussed by scholars today."

Samuel Sandmel, A Jewish Understanding of the New Testament‎ (New York: Ktav, 1974) p. 196

With these additional sources, the statement in question will be supported with two books published by Oxford University Press, one from Cambridge University Press, one anthology published by Brill (a serious academic publisher), and then two more sources from less impressive publishers. Also, with the Wells and Sandmel citations, the assertion of the existence of a scholarly consensus will now be connected to two different non-Christian authors: one an atheist (and formerly the most famous denier of Jesus' historicity!), the other a Jew.

If someone thinks that these additional sources would be helpful, I've written out the text below; simply copy the source text and paste it over the article's first paragraph:

The historicity of Jesus concerns the historical existence of Jesus of Nazareth. While scholars often draw a distinction between the Jesus of history and the Christ of faith (and debate what specifics can be known concerning his character and ministry) essentially all scholars in the relevant fields agree that the existence of Jesus as a historical figure can be established using documentary and other evidence.

Christ myth theory mistake

Recently an editor removed the phrase "classical historians" from the lead of the Christ myth theory on the grounds that it was unsourced. But that simply isn't true. The sentence in view here is sourced with a citation from Graham Stanton, the relevant quotation from which is as follows:

"Today, nearly all historians, whether Christians or not, accept that Jesus existed and that the gospels contain plenty of valuable evidence which has to be weighed and assessed critically. There is general agreement that, with the possible exception of Paul, we know far more about Jesus of Nazareth than about any first or second century Jewish or pagan religious teacher."

Graham Stanton, The Gospels and Jesus (2nd ed.), (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2002) p. xxiii.

The article would be better if someone replaced "classical historians" (or perhaps just "historians") into the lead. Eugene (talk) 02:36, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Requesting an unblock

Vanished user 2345 (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))

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{{Unblock on hold |1=blocking administrator |2=It's been more than a month now and, with the "heat of the moment" fully past, I'd like to once again request that I be unblocked. Creating the page on SlimVirgin was a foolish mistake--both in terms of my timing and motives. I understand the community's response (especially now that I'm more fully aware of the background to this matter) and recognize the wisdom implicit in its decision. I've apologized to SlimVirgin personally and I can honestly say that I bear her no ill-will. I think that I have a lot to offer Misplaced Pages in terms of content and sourcing in my particular area of expertise and I'd be perfectly comfortable submitting to some sort of probationary civility restriction if need be. ] (]) 21:41, 29 July 2010 (UTC) |3 = ~~~~}}

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{{unblock reviewed |1=It's been more than a month now and, with the "heat of the moment" fully past, I'd like to once again request that I be unblocked. Creating the page on SlimVirgin was a foolish mistake--both in terms of my timing and motives. I understand the community's response (especially now that I'm more fully aware of the background to this matter) and recognize the wisdom implicit in its decision. I've apologized to SlimVirgin personally and I can honestly say that I bear her no ill-will. I think that I have a lot to offer Misplaced Pages in terms of content and sourcing in my particular area of expertise and I'd be perfectly comfortable submitting to some sort of probationary civility restriction if need be. ] (]) 21:41, 29 July 2010 (UTC) |decline = {{subst:Decline reason here}} ~~~~}}

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{{unblock reviewed |1=It's been more than a month now and, with the "heat of the moment" fully past, I'd like to once again request that I be unblocked. Creating the page on SlimVirgin was a foolish mistake--both in terms of my timing and motives. I understand the community's response (especially now that I'm more fully aware of the background to this matter) and recognize the wisdom implicit in its decision. I've apologized to SlimVirgin personally and I can honestly say that I bear her no ill-will. I think that I have a lot to offer Misplaced Pages in terms of content and sourcing in my particular area of expertise and I'd be perfectly comfortable submitting to some sort of probationary civility restriction if need be. ] (]) 21:41, 29 July 2010 (UTC) |accept = accept reason here ~~~~}}

I've put a note at WP:ANI drawing attention to your request, to see if consensus favors your unblock. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 22:15, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Thank you very much. Eugene (talk) 22:16, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

I'm saddened to see that SlimVirgin opposes my return to editing. When jbolden1517 made IRL threats against me and was blocked, SlimVirgin led the charge to have him rehabilitated after about a month. I had hoped that she would show me the same graciousness. Eugene (talk) 22:28, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

iridescent has mentioned a possible combination unblock/topic ban. I'm hesitant to endorse such a plea since pages that cover "religious historiography" comprise much of my education and I'd rather not return to editing just so I can tighten-up articles on my favorite bands and so forth. How about a probationary 1RR restriction instead? It would severely limit my ability to edit war if the mood struck me and I'd still be able to do meaningful sourcing on subjects that I'm informed about. Eugene (talk) 23:05, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

SlimVirgin has indicated that it is my wider pattern of editing that makes her leery of seeing me unblocked. If I might be so bold, what assurances and safeguards would you find sufficient to allow my return? I'm open to a 1RR and civility restriction; would something more help?

(Also, as an aside, I noticed that you removed "classical historians" from the lead at Christ Myth theory on the grounds that it was unsourced. But the statement was sourced with a book written by Graham Stanton and published by Oxford which specifically refers to "historians". You'll be my hero if you change it back.) Eugene (talk) 01:31, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

1. Graham Stanton, The Gospels and Jesus (2nd ed.), (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2002) p. xxiii
   • Schuyler Brown, The Origins of Christianity: A Historical Introduction to the New Testament (rev. ed.), The Oxford Bible Series, (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1993) p. 19
   • Mark W. G. Stibbe, John as Storyteller: Narrative Criticism and the Fourth Gospel (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1992) pp. 67-68
   • Charles E. Carlston, "Prologue", in Bruce Chilton & Craig A. Evans (eds.) Studying the Historical Jesus: Evaluations of the State of Current Research (Leiden: Brill, 1998) p. 3
   • G. A. Wells, The Historical Evidence for Jesus (Amherst, NY: Prometheus, 1988) p. 218
   • Samuel Sandmel, A Jewish Understanding of the New Testament‎ (New York: Ktav, 1974) p. 196

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