Misplaced Pages

In the table itself it says Perring F.H. and Walters. S.M (1990) Atlas of the British Flora, Botanical Society of the British Isl]] " Clearly that should say British Isles. I do not know if it should be linked or not, but is there an agreement to correct that? BritishWatcher (talk) 21:44, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

British Isles is correct here, and should be linked. See my comments at User talk:Snowded for some stuff related to the broader argument. LevenBoy (talk) 21:47, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

• Now that we've got "Fauna" buttoned down, could we tackle "Flora" next? Would that help with this article? TFOWR 11:08, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Can we see how fauna works out first? Looks like we have an agreement on this one --Snowded 11:09, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm not proposing that we move straight to adopting a "flora" policy, simply that we begin discussing it now. I agree that we need to see if "fauna" works out first. TFOWR 11:16, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Structured discussion

Boilerplate text about "summarising arguments from above, based on policy and precedents, and backed with diffs and links" goes here. TFOWR 16:12, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Ping. I'll start closing these out as "no consensus" unless there's some movement here... TFOWR 11:24, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Ping again. It's only been four days since the article talkpage was notified, so I'm no immediate rush to close this out, but the sections below are remarkably empty... TFOWR 10:14, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Arguments for "British Isles" @ Atlases of...

Arguments against "British Isles" @ Atlases of...

List of lichen checklists

• Is anyone going to bother linking to this debate from the talkpage of the article? DuncanHill (talk) 13:20, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
  • The discussion pre-dates {{BID}} but yes, someone should. I'll do it now. TFOWR 13:29, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
    • Already done: Talk:List of lichen checklists#British Isle book contains references to IoM By Triton Rocker on 25 July. TFOWR 13:32, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
      • It's well hidden. Needs to be an explicit link so people can see what it is without having to click on it first. DuncanHill (talk) 13:36, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
        • I'll add a {{BID}} template now. This discussion pre-dates the template by sometime. I'd like to say that we've improved since those dark days, but letting article editors know is still one area where editors here need to be reminded far too much. TFOWR 13:39, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

It appears to come under Misplaced Pages:WikiProject_Fungi and it would be worth opening a discussion there, I will do so. This goes to the general point that in many cases these changes should also be discussed at local articles or projects, since editors here in reality lack sufficient expertise to decide accurately in some cases. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 13:30, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Here the referenced book title is "Great Britain and Ireland" so there is no case to make it British Isles unless we are in the business of correcting the book titles of experts in the field.--Snowded 10:00, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

I see no reason to change, however disagree with Snowded reasons, as I have said before trying to second guess the reasons why an author chose to use "Great Britain and Ireland" vs "British Isles" is not good. It is quite possible that the wrong one can be used by the title of the book, that does not mean here on WP we should automatically compound any mistake by blindly following what could be a choice made for commercial reasons. Codf1977 (talk) 10:35, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

You need to look at the overall context - that should be the first step, in the case of List of lichen checklists there is none so use the title of the book as there is nothing else to go on. But as a rule it is not appropriate as it is open to mistakes or errors. Codf1977 (talk) 11:11, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

List of lichen checklists should say what the book says. BritishWatcher (talk) 12:47, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

My only hesitation on the lichens one is that the publication is a reference work of the British Lichen Society - the only geographical scopes they express in their website are here - saying that the society "... arranges annual residential meetings in spring, summer and autumn in all parts of the British Isles... " - and here - showing meetings in the Isle of Man, England, Scotland, Wales, etc. The book isn't stand-alone, it's their specific publication. I suspect they are indeed a BI grouping and that this book is a BI-wide reference work, although I accept the general point about book titles. This may be another case of us clunking a bit into an area we actually know little about. 12:58, 25 July 2010 (UTC) Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 12:59, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Stick with the reference @ List of lichen checklists but I agree with what James says above. Bjmullan (talk) 13:07, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Snowded's reasoning with List of lichen checklists (as per book titles). --HighKing (talk) 10:30, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

That article should have British Isles as a heading. The heading does not relate to the publication beneath it, other than as a broad grouping for it, and potentially other publications. I have found a publication detailing lichens in the IoM, so by adding that maybe British Isles is better. LevenBoy (talk) 20:47, 27 July 2010 (UTC) What say we add these three links to List of lichen checklists -

Then maybe we should have a rethink about the section heading? LevenBoy (talk) 21:21, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Original research, the title of the book is very clear --Snowded 11:01, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Yes, but there's a difference between the link title and the section titles in the article. That looks like useful material LevenBoy. Also we should encourage collaborative editing when we see it Snowded and not carp. :-) Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 11:03, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Come on James, this one was discussed and you yourself with the "chunking around" comment accepted the general point about book titles. Codf1977 on the talk pages says that s/he plans a general reworking of the titles, and if you check I supported that. Pending a wider change this one was closed off, and we really don't want every one which is closed being opened again shortly afterwards. On the other hand this entry starts with reinstating a posting from an established sock farm. There is a difference. and the OR point stands, its not carping its an argument. --Snowded 11:15, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

The Lichens one doesn't seem to be closed - what closed it exactly? As regards the titles, I see no reason why continued editing of the article needs to stop because someone has (vaguely) promised that at some future point they will rework the titles. At the moment, there are a variety of section-themes in that article, including down to the State level in the US. Adding material about the IofM and the CI seems very reasonable. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 11:22, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Snowded, you obviously didn't read my comments above (20:47, 27 July 2010) so here is the gist, again; the title is just a grouping for publications appearing beneath it. It is not directly related to a particular entry so how you manage to conjure up OR in this context is quite beyond me. You seem to be stonewalling on this one. British Isles is an obvious title for the group of publications that we could now add to. And please reflect further on the comments I placed on your Talk Page regarding just what is, and what isn't OR. LevenBoy (talk) 11:33, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Guys, if you really want to reopen this one feel free. You might want to look at the flora and fauna point etc. LevenBoy, there is only one title as its a list of lists. If you follow the current page convention then you should create sections for Guernsey, possibly IoM & Ireland (although those are books not lists). On the other hand it might make sense to completely re-organise it into geographical areas (in which case BI is fine if the others are things like North America) or nations etc. I think that was Codf1977's point. However just inserting BI instead of the current title is neither one thing or the other. --Snowded 11:51, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

As has been pointed out, the *current* text is correct. The section headings reflect the publications within the lists, and reflect the titles within the publications. There's no grouping - for example, we don't have a section heading entitled "USA" with the appropriate publications under that heading. As Snowded correctly points out above, following the convention within the article would simply require adding a section for "Ireland", and another for "Isle of Man", etc, and listing the publication. In order to *insert* "British Isles" into this article, it requires a rewrite to organize and group by geographical regions. Of course, if it's deemed OK to edit articles to rewrite sections and introduce new material, its best we're all crystal clear on that too... --HighKing (talk) 12:27, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

They don't currently match up precisely. See for example North America, which is listed as "A Cumulative Checklist for the Lichen-forming, Lichenicolous and Allied Fungi of the Continental United States and Canada." US and Canada is not North America. Clearly there is scope for improving the article. It also isn't up to you HighKing to resist adding material to that article that is appropriate, contextual and properly referenced. I am not sure what the problem is here exactly. If LevenBoy chooses not to add that material, I will. 14:00, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

If there are more lists then I would add them, in their own sections relating the heading to the list. I'm less sure about the two books which are not (other than by implication) lists bit that is a minor point. I don;t see High King arguing against adding material --Snowded 14:14, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

The ones LevenBoy identified would best be added under a new "British Isles" header with the Britain and Ireland one. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 14:49, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Disagree, either add within the current convention or restructure by geographical area (in which case BI or Europe or similar is fine). The latter is a better idea to be honest although it involves a bit more work. FAD No consent to insertion of BI without other changes--Snowded 14:57, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

@James - the easiest solution is to follow the existing convention. Your North American example, which technically incorrect, is ambiguously referenced since the link brings you to a page entitled "North American Lichen Checklist". If you want to add new material, fine. But the community would ...take a dim view... of an editor completely changing around the current convention of an article, and then adding to an article, solely with the intention to insert "British Isles", especially against a consensus here. --HighKing (talk) 17:00, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Do you mean the same way the Lichen Society pages take you to lots of references to British Isles? As for the "current convention" of the article, there doesn't seem to be a straightforward one, as the North American example shows. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 17:23, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

The taskforce is primarily concerned with examining usage in articles - as they are currently being used. In this case, usage of "Great Britain and Ireland" is valid and correct, given the existing current naming conventions used within the article. I believe that setting out to materially rewrite or reorganize an article is not within the spirit of this task force. Restructuring the list by geographical regions might validate an insertion of "British Isles" - but I believe there is no justification for restructuring beyond the insertion of "British Isles", and I disagree with that motive. --HighKing (talk) 23:26, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Structured discussion

Boilerplate text about "summarising arguments from above, based on policy and precedents, and backed with diffs and links" goes here. TFOWR 16:13, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Ping! Only four days since the article talkpage was notified, but I'm not going to hang around for ever. HighKing, thanks for your arguments. Anyone else? TFOWR 10:15, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Arguments for "British Isles" @ ...Lichen checklists

Arguments against "British Isles" @ ...Lichen checklists

• The reference uses "Great Britain and Ireland". Changing the reference is WP:OR and against WP:V. --HighKing (talk) 18:26, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

List of the vascular plants of Britain and Ireland

List of the vascular plants of Britain and Ireland is practically a disambiguation page for a number of lists of different types of plants. At a cursory glance (including some of the lists) it seems that it should be "British Isles", or at least "Great Britain and Ireland". Happy to leave this on hold till we get something larger on flora sorted out though. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 17:24, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Agree that it looks like it should have been "British Isles". Codf1977 (talk) 17:27, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. BritishWatcher (talk) 18:54, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

You are talking about renaming a range of pages to replace a commonly used alternative to British Isles. I suggest seeing if people involved in those articles think its worth the effort. --Snowded 05:48, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

It would certainly be more accurate to say British Isles rather than just two islands. BritishWatcher (talk) 10:09, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes a rename would be in order. Given the very low activity on the talk page or article page, a BOLD action is appropriate. Any attempt to open debate on the talk page is likely to result in a duplicate debate to here. Codf1977 (talk) 10:20, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Its not just one article, several are effected. Its not a case for being bold, just put a move proposal on the page and see what happens --Snowded 10:23, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) It would be worthwhile posting on the talkpage, however, pointing editors at this discussion. Sorry, I'm about to get stuck into some real-life busy-ness, so if someone else could do that I'd be ever so obliged ;-) I'm also kind of holding off on flora issues, to see how fauna works out. I'd like to see a "blanket ruling" like fauna applied to flora. No reason why we need to hold off on discussing vascular plants in the meantime, however. TFOWR 10:25, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Id agree with posting on the talk pages although i dont think a formal RM is required at this stage unless theres disagreement on there. Give it awhile BritishWatcher (talk) 10:28, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

As above with fauna. If not all, 99.999% are going to be, and actually already mean, British Isles. This is a good, clean, clear adult editorial guideline we are working on and it should take priority above all constituent specialism in order to establish a consistent policy. --Triton Rocker (talk) 10:37, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Lets see what people say. I'm not too fussed on this one, but I will point out that there is evidence that Britain and Ireland is in use as a substitute for British Isles (see the evidence on the main article) so its not that black and white. Conventions will differ in different fields and we should go with what the evidence shows --Snowded 10:39, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps but the winds are changing. Technically speaking, however, it is inaccurate and, arguably, an offence to the independent Crown Dependent islands. I am suggesting we move on beyond the past - many of the references are very old - and, in our setting of a consistent Wikipedian editorial guideline, keep one eye on technical accuracy.

From a professional point of view, I would say that in many cases the use of the term "Britain and Ireland" is an anachronistic throwback to a more Imperial and chauvinistic period when it was first used and established --- when it was Britain and Ireland. It is not now. (<irony alert> and you know what a bunch of rabid Neo-cons and Proto-fascist imperialist Poms the Linnean Society are.</irony alert>). --Triton Rocker (talk) 11:06, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Where are we with this then?

There are:

38,600 papers on Google Scholar for "British Isles and fauna" 48,200 for "British Isles and flora".

I am look for a clear, simple editorial guideline.

As below, I think that in non-political topics, BI should be the acceptable default and B+I accepted as generally confusing and erroneous. --Triton Rocker (talk) 16:30, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Structured discussion

Boilerplate text about "summarising arguments from above, based on policy and precedents, and backed with diffs and links" goes here. TFOWR 16:13, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

I have added the template to the article, see if there are any responses. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 09:16, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Ping! BW, you promised us examples, where are they? ;-)

Blimey, what a curious list. I'm going to ask a couple of list-specialists for general advice: I'm finding the whole concept a little bizarre right now. TFOWR 10:22, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Arguments for "British Isles" @ List of the vascular plants of Britain and Ireland

• It deals with flora on "Britain and Ireland", which I'm not sure is Great Britain and Ireland or the UK and Ireland. Either way, I find it hard to believe the plants would not cover the Isle of Man. Noting the wider geographical area would be much more appropriate. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 09:18, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

• There is a book with the title "List of Vascular Plants of The British Isles"
• Category the group is in is Category:Lists of the vascular plants of the British Isles, the article titles should reflect this too.
• There are not separate articles on Vascular plants of the Isle of Man, it would make sense for them to be covered in these lists rather than a separate article which could cause a lot of duplication. List of the vascular plants of Britain and Ireland 4 mentions the Isle of Man Cabbage which exists in Great Britain and around the Isle of Man.
• There are a large number of books that talk about Flora and the British Isles rather than just isolating Great Britain and Ireland. (Examples will follow). BritishWatcher (talk) 11:43, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Arguments against "British Isles" @ List of the vascular plants of Britain and Ireland

• The article is largely unreferenced, and the sub-articles are also largely unreferenced. Probably a candidate for a clean-up or reorg - and failing that, an AFD
• As already stated, the global scientific community does not recognize "British Isles" as a "flora" geographic unit, but it does recognize the islands.
• As a side-note, the "category" is also wrong and should reflect the article title --HighKing (talk) 18:36, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

James Kay (British inventor)

Article states a British inventor who developed a successful wet spinning process for flax in 1824, helping industrialise linen spinning in the British Isles. The entire statement is unreferenced as regards helping to industrialise anything. I recommend the statement should be removed, but no harm in tagging first and seeing if something turns up? We can leave the tag for a week maybe before making a decision? --HighKing (talk) 19:55, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Structured discussion

Same as in other discussions, I'm hoping the discussion above can be edited down into arguments based on policy and precedent, backed by diffs and links, and that this section should be quick and easy. TFOWR 16:04, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm going to ask another admin to take a look at this. I'll likely do that later today (there's been plenty of time to make arguments, below) so if anyone has any last minute additions - do it soon. TFOWR 11:16, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Arguments for "British Isles"

• This is a new article (virtually a stub) and so lacks sourcing. Various books exhibit the complexity of the early linen industry, Kay's impact on it and the many connections between Ireland and Lancashire. For example, . This one gives information about the spread of linen production throughout the islands following Kay's invention. More research and writing is obviously needed for the article but in the meantime, there is sufficient reason not to delete BI. In historical contexts like this one, BI is accurate and valid as a phrase representing mentions of Britain and Ireland. The alternative inference is that BI could never be used to mean historic Ireland and Britain, which must be false. It need not be replaced or deleted unless further sourcing becomes available proving otherwise, which seems unlikely. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 16:38, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

• The linen houses of the Bann Valley: the story of their families By Kathleen Rankin "From Yorkshire power spinning of flax was taken up in the linen manufacturing districts of the east of Scotland where it soon became an important industry." So it did not just impact on Northern Ireland. BritishWatcher (talk) 02:07, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

Arguments against "British Isles"

• a British inventor who developed a successful wet spinning process for flax in 1824, helping industrialise linen spinning in the British Isles. No references for to state he helped industrialise linen spinning in the British Isles. All of the references point to his invention used in conjunction with linen solely in Northern Ireland. --HighKing (talk) 15:59, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
• Reference by BW above is perfect example of OR. It shows how an editor will try to combine difference facts from publications in order to support an assertion not explicitly made within said publications. There are no references that support the statement that James Kay revolutionized the Linen industry in the British Isles. Period. --HighKing (talk) 14:19, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Augustus John

The article contains the follwing statement: He was, throughout his life, particularly interested in the Romani people (whom he referred to as "Gypsies"), and sought them out on his frequent travels around the United Kingdom and Europe. In this context UK is wrong and should be replaced with British Isles. Using UK alongside Europe mixes apples and pears, and use of UK is too specific, meaning we are saying that in his travels throughtout the islands John never visited anyhwere other that the UK. If he did, then UK is wrong, but BI, encompassing all areas of the islands, is likely to be more accurate. LevenBoy (talk) 07:42, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Before anyone asks the question, this confirms that he visited Ireland. Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:17, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

I agree BritishWatcher (talk) 09:24, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

I didn't comment earlier as I was going to ask that question Ghmyrtle! Good find, include that in the article somewhere. I agree with changing this to British Isles. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 09:27, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

• LevenBoy, can you template Talk:Augustus John to let editors there know about this discussion? Ta! TFOWR 09:50, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
  • Done. LevenBoy (talk) 12:07, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
    • Noted, thanks. TFOWR 12:36, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Some points:

• "In this context UK is wrong ..." - According to the source he visted Ireland in 1907. At that time all of Ireland was a part of the UK. Even today, it is entirely possible to be in both Ireland and the UK at the same time.
• "...we are saying that in his travels throughtout the islands John never visited anyhwere other that the UK..." - No. The article says he sought out Gypsies when he traveled elsewhere in Europe also (he was from the UK). Are the islands not entirely contained in Europe? What would make a visit to the independent 26 counties of Ireland after 1922 any more notable than a visit to France?
• "... and use of UK is too specific ..." - We don't like being specific now? Naming the country of origin of the artist specifically and elsewhere in general terms is hardly "too specific".

About the priciple of not mixing "apples and pears", that related to listing "British Isles" alongside states and countries as if it was one. It does not mean that we cannot say that a painter was from the UK and traveled elsewhere in Europe. --— RA (talk) 13:44, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

BTW, the above points are intended as a criticism of the reasons given to make the change proposed. I actually don't think it would make a fig of a difference either way. However, I don't think it is the business of this Task Force to go "correcting" articles for no good reason. Where this Task Force does make changes, they should be the most minimal possible to correct possible sources of confusion. (I also think this Task Force should avoid adding or removing cotentious terms where it can.) Therefore, in respect of this article, I suggest it be changed to "... and sought them out on his frequent travels around the United Kingdom and elsewhere in Europe." --— RA (talk) 13:46, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Last time I looked the whole of the UK and Ireland were in Europe, so lets just keep it to that, delete United Kingdom--Snowded 17:27, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

I'd second Snowded here. It could be changed to British Isles and mainland Europe, but that seems to be pointless. Just change it to Europe, full stop. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 17:48, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Absolutely not! If he were from America or Borneo, possibly, but for someone from & living in the UK, especially at this date, to talk of "travels in Europe" clearly implies continental travel. Even now, if I'm living in London & go to Ipswich for the day, that is "travelling in Europe", but it is just misleading to describe it so. Johnbod (talk) 19:02, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Arguments for adding "British Isles" @ Augustus John

The article already uses Europe & AJ was on the island of Ireland. GoodDay (talk) 16:57, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

I do wonder if UK is confusing to some readers in pre-1922 contexts - many may associate UK with the modern geographical boundaries and be somewhat unaware of the Irish dimension. For that reason, I do favour BI in some of the older contexts where it is intended as a passing geographical reference rather than some political explanation. John seems to have travelled pretty widely around these islands, so that aspect seems to fit as well. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 09:22, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

You can't say UK & Europe or BI & Europe James, UK and BI are both a part of Europe --Snowded 11:31, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

In theory, yes, but people frequently do draw a distinction between the two, even though to purists one includes the other. :) Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 11:50, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Are you in the "Fog in Channel, Europe cut off" group then? Its nothing to do with purism, its a straight forward error --Snowded 11:53, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Not really, it's just a way of speaking. BI is officially in the EU, if that's what you mean, it's geographically part of Europe and it's also distinct from Europe. If we're going to get rid of every place in Misplaced Pages where it says something like "throghout Italy and Europe" to take an analogy, we are in for a big job. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 11:56, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

We don't need to search them out, but correcting them when they come up ... --Snowded 12:06, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Is your objection then to any attempt to insert BI in a context where Europe is also mentioned? Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 12:38, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Object is to either BI or UK being used with a "and Europe". Take the highest geographical area applicable --Snowded 15:33, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

You're welcome to your opinions of course, but that can't possibly be a rule - how can you legislate to say people can't say "the UK and Europe"? Here are 1,880 examples of where they already do in en-WP , just to get us started - shall we go through them one at a time to see how they hold up? Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 15:42, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Come on you know better than that. Several thousand people expect the rapture to come soon and the number of hits on the return of the green feather serpent god of the myans in 2012 is legion. We are building an encyclopedia here and we have some responsibility when the opportunity presents it self to get things right. --Snowded 17:29, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

I think you mean "better than that" from your particular viewpoint - there's nothing wrong with "Britain and Europe", "UK and Europe", "France and Europe", etc - they are just useful turns of phrase. Unless you happen to have a strong need to justify exclusion of a certain phrase, perish the thought! Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 17:36, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

I have a strong preference for accurate language and avoiding tautology. I have a further strong feeling about phrases which seek to imply that somehow or other the UK or BI are not a part of Europe. You last sentence is uncalled for, there is a stronger case that people arguing for a tautology are seeking to impose a "certain phrase" --Snowded 17:49, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

There is nothing "innacurate" about "Britain and Europe". It's a matter of opinion. Apparently you reject the notion that it is a matter of opinion, yet it remains one, regardless, not a matter of "accuracy". Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 17:54, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Is it or is it not a tautology? "the saying of the same thing twice in different words" --Snowded 18:00, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

It belongs to that class of things that sound superficially tautological but on close inspection are not, because they are not comparing like with like. Saying "France and Europe" is a compound statement - it is about France and Europe as a comparison, not about the unique identities, France and Europe, one of which belongs to the other. People who hold the view that Europe is superior to Britain, for example, those nationalists who favour that approach because it downgrades their membership of the UK and, they feel, enhances their potential as seperate nations "within Europe" would obviously argue against the existence of a "UK and Europe" and for a position that the UK was always subordinate to Europe. So it is politically loaded from top to bottom and personally, I find appeals to simplistic argument on this topic, pretty silly. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 18:08, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

You are reading an awful amount of speculation about motivation into what is a simple (not simplistic) issue. Tautology is be avoided, that isn't silly its just plain good sense. --Snowded 18:11, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

And you are determinedly avoiding a genuine debate - simply repeating that it's a tautology, when it isn't, advances nothing. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 18:19, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

But that is my argument James, its a tautology and tautologies should be avoided. Not sure what else you want me to debate really. --Snowded 19:03, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

In cases like nations, nothing is ever as simple as a logical tautology. A sentence containing the phrase "carrots and vegetables" is perhaps tautological, but a sentence containing the phrase "British Isles and Europe" need not be. That is because the phrase "British Isles" can contain many shaded meanings. It can be a concept, a literal physical entity, an identity, a set of values.... the list goes on. I really won't take more time on this, we will have to agree to disagree, but I am making it clear that I can't accept the idea that those phrases can't co-exist in Misplaced Pages - and at least several thousand other edits in WP agree with me on a single usage. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 19:11, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

So why introduce a term in addition to Europe to complicate things? --Snowded 19:27, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

To people in Britain, "Europe" does, I'm afraid, have two meanings. One is "the continent of which we are part", and the other is "the mainland of which we are not part". One may be more "correct" to us, but language doesn't always work like that. Ghmyrtle (talk) 18:17, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

If there's objection to adding BI? shouldn't those objections be placed under the 'Arguments against...' section? GoodDay (talk) 15:40, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

UK and Europe was once present on the UK article, I changed Europe to Mainland Europe, appears to be an ingrained problem. Anyway, GoodDay raises a point on process, this isn't an argument against adding it in a way, but to remove the option completely... slightly different? I guess the new system still has kinks.

Arguments against adding "British Isles" @ Augustus John

I'm convinced of the opposition to Europe and British Isles being used. Indeed, let's just use Europe, as the British Isles is within that continent. GoodDay (talk) 15:45, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Agree, it reads better --Snowded 17:32, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

• In summary, adding "British Isles" is not supported in the context of the article. The text in the article is somewhat at fault and isn't accurate or clear in places. For example, strictly speaking, Romani people are a single ethnic group while "Gypsies" include other nomadic ethnic groups including Irish Travellers. It's probably more correct to say he was "particularly interested" in Gypsies (which is the term he used himself) even though many references state he was interested in "Romany" life and culture. That said, the predominant ethnic group in England was Romani. He even learned to speak Romani. In his travels to France, Italy, Ireland, etc, he also met and interacted with other ethnic nomadic groups such as Irish Travellers. It's not altogether accurate or correct to say that he "sought out" gypsies on his "frequent travels". This appears to be WP:OR. Is there a reference for this? In a sense, he saw himself *as* a gypsy. For a time, he lived like a gypsy, frequently traveling in a caravan up and down the roads of England, and travelling to France. Sure - he visited Ireland several times and he was a friend of Lady Gregory, but his "frequent travels" were around England, and northern France as these were annual during that period. On the whole, his obsession with Gypsy lore is downplayed significantly in this article, and for such an important artist, this aspect of the article is poor. --HighKing (talk) 17:58, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Most of which has virtually nothing to do with the subject in hand. I suggest "British Isles and mainland Europe" as a sensible alternative to the present text. LevenBoy (talk) 18:09, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Nothing like a good point-by-point riposte. --HighKing (talk) 19:15, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Good point, the whole thing is unreferenced so it can be struck anyway, if there is a reference then we can take whatever that says. --Snowded 19:05, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Except that we are (I thought) discussing the simple issue of add/delete here, not the wider issue of all other modifications to an article that may or may not arise. Unless there's another scope creep coming in that we didn't agree to. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 19:13, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

On the issue of Add/Delete, the current text is WP:OR and should be struck. As to what can be referenced, I've tried to produce a summary of what was intended or meant. Part of the problem I encountered is that the current text is so poor, it needs expansion. --HighKing (talk) 19:18, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

That last argument (by HK) I may agree with. The reference for the suggested BI inclusion passage refers to "The Art of Augustus John" - a quick search for the word "Romani" in that book gives information about visits to Wales only. So there may be a good debating point there. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 19:34, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Keeping the reference to sources makes most sense --Snowded 19:37, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

The BBC ref says that he "was deeply influenced by the Romany tradition, lifestyle and language; he spent time travelling with gypsy caravans in Wales, Dorset and Ireland." Ghmyrtle (talk) 19:55, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

To some extent, "aggressive challenging of references" is a pretty good description of the Misplaced Pages editing process LB, so I wouldn't overdo that point. You were on firmer ground looking for refs to support inclusion. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 20:14, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

• To summarise, we have two relevant references in the article.

• (1) The reference to the intended target sentence for the "BI add", in the Provence section - this reference only mentions visits to Wales in connection with the "Romani" people that the artist was interested in painting.

• (2) A general reference higher up in the article to a BBC Wales article about the artist that does, as Ghyrmtle points out, reference visits to Ireland in connection with Romani people.

• Strictly speaking therefore, the inclusion in the proposed sentence falls, as the ref in that sentence does not support it. On the other hand, if we take the BBC article as a source for the page in general, then it succeeds.

• Therefore we need to decide if general pre-existing refs in a given article are valid for inclusion at any point in the article. If not, then it has to be an existing ref in exactly the sentence at question. Views? Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 20:55, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

I'd say that it's perfectly acceptable to find new refs to support a position. In fact, it's encouraged (so long as WEIGHT, RS, etc, is observed...) --HighKing (talk) 21:49, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Well we could just reflect the BBC quote and say "Wales, Dorset and Ireland." Its accurate and informative and folloes the reference --Snowded 21:05, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

The shortest and easiest way of saying that is "British Isles". Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 21:26, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

No Scotland, only one English county, no mention of IoM etc. etc. That is stretching things a bit. Source is informative as it shows the limit of his travel, and in general following the source is the best way on these disputes --Snowded 21:31, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Which just goes back to what geographically constitutes "British Isles". What are the limits for what is regarded as acceptable? Until that is clarified, we are clearly going to get - exactly - nowhere. I would rather all further deletes/adds be frozen until such time as that is agreed, since it's clear that no argument for inclusion on geographical grounds is acceptable under the current rather ill-defined conditions. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 21:43, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Good question. I'd say we need to include at least Ireland, GB, and one of the Crown Dependencies. Otherwise it would simply be "Britain and Ireland". --HighKing (talk) 21:49, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Out of the question. LevenBoy (talk) 21:52, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Shall we structure it in a new section? We can each say what we would find acceptable. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 22:16, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm confused again. This is the section for arguments against usage of British Isles. GoodDay (talk) 22:17, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

It's a separate discussion. Probably a good idea to break it off from here and start a new section, although if the discussion is going to get filled with mindless comments with no substance, then we may have to move it elsewhere - maybe one of our Talk pages. --HighKing (talk) 22:20, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Best to move to AJ talkpage. GoodDay (talk) 22:22, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Conkers (Resolved)

Usual problem. Prior history of "The Troubles" vis-a-vis Ireland.

Comonsense applies as usual.

Yes, kids play conkers on the Isle of Man and Channel Islands and, no, they are not part of Britain or Ireland.

Move from "Britain and Ireland" to "British Isles". --Triton Rocker (talk) 07:06, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

...and Aesculus, Aesculus hippocastanum (Resolved)

(I've removed Aesculus from the above section, as it's a separate issue: childhood game vs. tree. TFOWR 09:47, 24 September 2010 (UTC))

(And I added Aesculus hippocastanum at no extra charge! I'm wanting a decent Christmas bonus, however... TFOWR 10:17, 24 September 2010 (UTC))

List of British Isles rockpool life

Raised by IP editor here. Ghmyrtle (talk) 06:50, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

Well he needs a better excuse that the "politically motivated" title cry. BritishWatcher (talk) 08:43, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

This seems to be primarily "fauna". TFOWR 09:21, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

As it is unreferenced, I hardly see how an editor can claim it ignores ireland. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 09:50, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

This seems to be primarily "fauna" ???? Except for the entire section entitled "Plants" :-)

The first order of business would suggest that we find a reference. My first quickie pass doesn't show anything obvious on the first few pages of Google Books. Did we not come across a book before dealing with the Sea Coasts of the British Isles or something like that?? --HighKing (talk) 15:54, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

Looking at the species list it could as well be for North Western Europe - you find the same species in Brittany for example. It seems harmless, geographical and all that but it would be nice to see a reference to say there is something distinctive --Snowded 16:05, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) "Plants" consists of two sub-division: "algae" and "lichens". I'd imagine that would greatly simplify our examination compared to the "animals" section, which consists of seven sub-divisions. Fortunately we have a general rule for "animals", so we can focus on "plants" and whether they can be treated as we'd treat fauna. TFOWR 16:06, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

What will you do if there are slime moulds? They are vegetables that become animals then revert  ;-) --Snowded 16:08, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

I sometimes feel trapped in another dimension. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 16:10, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

No change is needed. The article has had that title for years, the creator has responded to the IP claim the title is politically motivated. BritishWatcher (talk) 16:25, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps. Perhaps not. T'would be nice to have a concrete reason based on precedent and/or policy/guidelines, no? --HighKing (talk) 16:30, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

When concrete reasons to change the status quo are presented, i will look into this matter in more detail. Some random IP claiming an articles title is politically motivated, is not a just reason to consider this an open case for us all to waste our time on. if it is justification it sets a terrible precedent that could flood BISE in an hour with dozens of cases.BritishWatcher (talk) 16:34, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

That's true and given that it's just a list page, it's particularly difficult. Many of the individual items in the list (to take this seriously, which perhaps one shouldn't) do mention both Ireland and Britain incidentally. Cancer pagurus for example. The list article does obtrude into flora but it is mainly fauna-related. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 16:37, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

As requested, concrete reasons to examine usage on this article are that without references, it does not denote notability, and is WP:OR. --HighKing (talk) 18:32, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

There's a category entitled "British Isles coastal fauna" although no article. I've come across a number of publications. This book A student's guide to the seashore covers the British Isles although doesn't outline why it's notable in any way, and covers more than just rock pools. There appears to be a number of other books that detail much the same topics, but none from the point of view of the British Isles. A Beginner's Guide to Ireland's Seashore by Helena Challinor, Susan Murphy Wickens, Jane Clark and Audrey Murphy, Handbook of the marine fauna of north-west Europe, The biology of rocky shores (worldwide), and Seashore of Britain and Europe. Perhaps this article could become the basis of an expanded (and referenced) list to include more than just Coastal fauna (and even flora). As it is, the main objection is that it is unsourced and thereby WP:OR. What if the article was moved to List of fauna of the British Isles and expanded to more than just rockpool life, and included a lot of the articles in the already existing category? --HighKing (talk) 00:48, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Arguments for changing from "British Isles" @ List of British Isles rockpool life

Until/unless we get a reference, this is WP:OR and arguably not notable. --HighKing (talk) 18:30, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Arguments for retaining "British Isles" @ List of British Isles rockpool life

There doesn't appear to be any discernible benefit with respect to the article or topic that would come about from a rename. --RA (talk) 16:52, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

No specific valid reason for the change; list article, therefore difficult to build referencing cases; listed items include previously discussed fauna guideline parameters; listed articles include multiple mentions of localities across the archipelago. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 17:29, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

• Article title has been stable for 3 years since it was created.
• Article created by an uninvolved editor who has responded to the random IP's accusation of "political motivation" and "a British jingoistic claim over Ireland and the Irish" on the talkpage of the article.
• Article is in categories Category:British Isles coastal fauna Category:Ecology of the British Isles so having an article which covers the isles is not out of place.
• Article does cover some Fauna, something people have agreed is a valid area for use of British Isles. BritishWatcher (talk) 17:32, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

This article deals with rockpool life, and there is no basis for the IP's claim that it is only for Great Britain. Snowded mentioned it would be the same for much of north-west Europe, so Ireland would be included there. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 10:32, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

• Usual arguments. --LevenBoy (talk) 00:03, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Branimir Jelić (Resolved)

The article states During the 1930s Jelić sojourned in South America, Austria again (in mid-1932), Berlin (July 1932 – spring 1934), USA (until October 1934), Italy (until April 1936), Germany (until early 1939), USA (until September 1939) and Gibraltar (October 1939 – June 1940) before being detained on the British Isles. Since he was detained by the British on the Isle of Man, this should read as "Isle of Man on behalf of the British" or something equally clear. --HighKing (talk) 22:24, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Student

Just noticed this edit by an IP at Student. This is obviously someone making major changes to a stable article so that they can use the term BI. When it comes to education it's hard even using the term UK as Scottish, England/Wales and Northern Ireland all have different systems. I propose that this unexplained edit is reverted.

Revert. GoodDay (talk) 17:16, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

It might not be deliberate - it looks to me like a novice user attempting to improve the article. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 17:25, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Looking at the edits made by this editor, I believe it is someone who is very knowledgeable on Ireland/British issues, and knowledgable on Misplaced Pages policies and conventions. Their edits display a lot of wiki-editing knowledge. Their second edit summary mentions hat-notes for example, and they also "clean-up" numbers for text, and insert a reference. It is unlikely in the extreme that this editor is an innocent novice user. I also note the removal of the pipelinking of Republic of Ireland. Interestingly, that particular IP address also doesn't have a great reputation and is blacklisted on not one, but two, major spam prevention databases (check out senderbase for details). I'm going to revert "Student" immediately as per BRD. --HighKing (talk) 18:50, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Revert, and notify the IP about this discussion. WP:AGF, everyone. TFOWR 18:55, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

High King - reference this discussion in your edit summary when you revert. It'll keep the potential drama to a minimum. TFOWR 18:56, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Seems like a perfectly justified edit to me. The fact there are different education systems within the UK makes his edit all the more sensible. BritishWatcher (talk) 18:58, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Nothing great to worry about IMHO (not least because the IP is based in Dublin). The only query I would raise about the edit is the slight mixing of United Kingdom and British Isles: "In the past, the term "student" was reserved for people studying at university level in the United Kingdom ... However, the American-English use of the word "student" to include pupils of all ages, even at elementary level, is now spreading to the British Isles."

Suggested rephrase: "In the past, the term "student" was reserved for people studying at university level in the United Kingdom and Ireland ... However, the American-English use of the word "student" to include pupils of all ages, even at elementary level, is now spreading to the British Isles." Suggest the heading be changed to "United Kingdom and Ireland" also.

There's no need to be suspicious of IP editors by default: IPs are human too. --RA (talk) 19:09, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

True - except this IP demonstrated a working knowledge of both Misplaced Pages and Irish/British articles. In previous articles, this editor removed the Republic of Ireland wikilinks - so I'm not suspicious by default, just by their behaviour. For this article, I initially reverted. I've since continued to edit and I've now split the UK and Ireland into separate sections - there's no justification for treating them under a single section - and I've created sections for the other European countries too. --HighKing (talk) 19:22, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

BTW, the IP address does not track to Dublin. It is a Vodafone *Mobile* address. Could be anywhere. --HighKing (talk) 19:27, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

OK, evidently it isn't a "novice" but I suppose though that an experienced editor preferring not to register and moving between his/her own PC and a mobile laptop would look like this. I just mean there may be no element of bad intention there. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 19:39, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Given that was the only edit by that IP so far that affected British Isles, this seems to not be a case of socking or trivial IP noviceness. Should it not therefore be a structured discussion rather than a reflex revert TFOWR? Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 05:59, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

I think the usual procedure is revert and discuss? Regardless, it's been reverted now (though the edit summary could have been improved, High King...) But structured discussion? Yes. I'll start one now.

Are you looking at the right edit summaries? My first edit summary was "revert to use countries as per original article, fix to use pipelinking where appropriate, and generally tidied up some pieces". The second edit summary was "Reorganized by country, added tags for countries under Europe, split UK and Ireland into separate sections.". Both edit summaries describe the actions taken, and looking through the history of most people's edit summaries, I believe I'd be in line for a prize for consecutive descriptive edit summaries. --HighKing (talk) 11:03, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

I am. I was hoping for a link to this discussion. Something like "Per discussion at {{subst:dtag|nowiki|WT:BISE#Student}}". Sorry if that wasn't clear. TFOWR 11:07, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Arguments for "British Isles" at Student

• Usual argument, we cannot exclude IoM and CI. The comments apply to NI at least probably RoI too. We cannot use "UK and Ireland". --LevenBoy (talk) 00:01, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Arguments against "British Isles" at Student

• The article was changed by an IP editor that appears to have knowledge of this topic, and other contentious topics such as wikilinking Republic of Ireland -> Ireland. Appears mischievous at best.
• No basis or reasons given for changing to use British Isles.
• Article originally grouped UK and Ireland together - no basis for that either --HighKing (talk) 13:03, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

I think the issue of what the IP did is largely irrelevant, but it is correct that this article is best divided by country and the practises and culture surrounding the word "student" do vary a little both inside different parts of the UK and also between the UK and Ireland. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 18:30, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

• As I said in the opening it's hard to even use the term UK due to the many different education systems and traditions and therefore BI would be even more ridiculous. Bjmullan (talk) 23:11, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Wictor Esbensen (Resolved)

Article states that The ship escaped the German invasion of Norway on 9 April 1940, having arrived in Methil on 3 April, and continued in service around the British Isles. The voyage record shows that the ship only travelled around Great Britain (Scotland, Wales and England), and at least once visited France. Ship voyage link here. --HighKing (talk) 22:29, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

"Stop! Are you starting a new discussion?" (Resolved)

This page has a shiny new edit notice.

This page also has instructions.

I'm open to ideas for refining both, however the general principle is non-negotiable. It's part of being considerate members of a wider community, welcoming new-comers, and so on. Sorry to be a hard-arse about this, but that's the way it goes. TFOWR 16:20, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Good idea, I assume then we leave it to you to structure the discussion? Chipmunkdavis (talk) 16:36, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

I support. Codf1977 (talk) 16:37, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Aye, I'll hold off on the structuring bit. It may be that there's a really quick resolution. If it become obvious that's not the case I will (well, anyone can) create "for" and "against" sections. TFOWR 16:45, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

I like the stop notice. I'm a bit confused though (sorry for any foolishness on my part) - is this a warning about a specific recent misbehaviour, or are you announcing a new bit of templating, eg, the stop notice? Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 18:23, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

It's prompted more by DuncanHill (talk) chastising us all for being crap ;-) No one individually has been bad, it's more a comment on us all. TFOWR 18:34, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks TFOWR, that's kind. But...I think I got my virtual wrist slapped earlier for not templating the previous discussion immediately. An uninvolved editor requested that we template straight away, and it simplifies things. My excuse was that I was holding off templating until we decided we needed a debate in case it was an easily resolved case. Still, no harm in the end, and another small bit of progress. --HighKing (talk) 18:43, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

To be fair to HK, it hasn't been completely clear, but it is now, so that will make things easier. I'm really pleased with the way things have developed here for my part - we are now having orderly, constructive discussions and nothing hidden. I must say I think it really helps also when obviously disruptive editors are speedily assisted by admins in taking editing holidays - we really notice the difference! :) Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 18:45, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Wikiprojects

Is there a necessity to post on every single wikiproject listed on a page? Some may be tangentially related, at best. As such I think posting on every relevant wikiproject would be better? Chipmunkdavis (talk) 14:52, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. I'll update the instructions accordingly. What I'm going to say is basically: let every relevant WikiProject know; if you're unsure whether a WikiProject is relevant, err on the side of caution: either let them know, or note here which WikiProjects were and were not notified. TFOWR 10:09, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

 Done - instructions updated. TFOWR 20:10, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Evolution of the British Empire (Resolved)

Sorry if this isn't the right venue - but seeing as this is the group with the largest concentration of "British Isles" expers... and apologies to immediately create an example which I don't believe requires a template... The term "British Isles" doesn't necessarily need to be removed or added from this article, but I believe the paragraph wording is confusing. It states:

• The "crown dependencies" of the Isle of Man, Jersey and Guernsey (the last two are collectively referred to as the "Channel Islands"). These islands, while often considered to be part of the British Isles, have never formed part of the United Kingdom itself, or its predecessor states. At the same time, they have never been considered to be colonies; while the British Government is generally responsible for their defence and foreign relations, each of the territories has its own laws and political institutions. Strictly speaking their relationship is with the British Sovereign alone, rather than the British Government.

Does anyone else see a problem with the wording and the implied meaning behind the usage of "British Isles" here? Again, I emphasize, I'm not requesting a removal. If anyone reckons the article should be templated, I'll do it immediately! --HighKing (talk) 18:56, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm not clear what problem you are highlighting? I would say that the sentence "while often considered to be part of the British Isles" is wrong - but probably not in the way you feel? I would say it should read "while they are part of the British Isles".... Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 19:09, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

BTW, if the focus of your question is alteration of that sentence, then yes, this needs to be within the usual structure I would have thought. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 19:10, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

The paragraph as it currently reads implies that the rest of the "British Isles" are (or were) once part of the United Kingdom. It's inaccurate since it fails to take into account the Isle of Man, which is also part of the British Isles. --HighKing (talk) 19:18, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

(EC) Yes that should be changed.. perhaps to say something like "The "crown dependencies" of the Isle of Man, Jersey and Guernsey (the last two are collectively referred to as the "Channel Islands") are the only parts of the British Isles that have never formed part of the United Kingdom itself, or its predecessor states. " BritishWatcher (talk) 19:19, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

That would be fine. --HighKing (talk) 19:34, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Oh I see. Yes. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 19:38, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

This seems resolved? Can I close it out? TFOWR 21:45, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Fine with me. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 21:48, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

And me --HighKing (talk) 23:51, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Not trying to be picky, but wasn't the Kingdom of Mann and the Isles a "predecessor state"? Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:20, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

I thought by predecessor states it just meant - Kingdom of England Kingdom of Scotland Kingdom of Ireland, Kingdom of Great Britain and Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. BritishWatcher (talk) 09:22, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

I read BW's proposed text as meaning "predecessor states of the UK". Kingdom of Mann and the Isles was a predecessor state of Isle of Man. I'm biased though - I'm just looking for a quick and lazy close for this ;-) TFOWR 09:42, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

What about something like "The "crown dependencies" of the Isle of Man, Jersey and Guernsey have never formed part of the United Kingdom." Is that not simpler? And doesn't it say everything that needs to be said? Fmph (talk) 10:41, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

No because that would remove British Isles and there is absolutely no justification or need for its removal from that sentence. It is a valid bit of information that they are the only parts not to have formed part of the UK. BritishWatcher (talk) 13:49, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Saying that would remove the notability from the sentence. Currently it says (in as many badly ordered words) "Everywhere in X was once part of Y, except for Z". Changing it to "Z was never part of Y" removes part of the information, and is unremarkable. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 14:38, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Quarth

The article currently states Quarth was released on the Konami Net i-mode service as Block Quarth, with an updated Block Quarth DX in 2001—this was released in 2005 on O2's i-mode services in the British Isles minus the "DX" suffix.. O2 does not have a "British Isles" service, instead it has a UK service and and Ireland service. Also the Channel Islands don't have an O2 service. --HighKing (talk) 13:16, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Use United Kingdom and Republic of Ireland, in this instance. GoodDay (talk) 14:08, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Agree Codf1977 (talk) 14:10, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Also agree. Bjmullan (talk) 22:06, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

United Kingdom and Ireland per MOS. --RA (talk) 22:10, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Do ya mean ? GoodDay (talk) 22:11, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Usual and typical proposal. Fails due to O2's IoM and CI services. We need to establish what are "good faith" proposals and silly "bad faith" or time wasting proposals. Confusion over the Irelands leading to an overly wordy alternative. BI fits the bill. --LevenBoy (talk) 23:38, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

When you make that argument below, can you link to O2's IoM and CI services? That seems to be an easy way to disprove HighKing's argument. Ta! TFOWR 11:18, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

O2 don't offer any services on the Isle of Man or the Channel Islands. (Though for a while Manx Telecom was wholly owned by O2.) --RA (talk) 11:33, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

And just to clarify my request, we'd need O2's i-mode service, not merely O2. TFOWR 11:37, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Eh ... no O2, no O2 i-mode.

O2 offer services in the UK, Ireland and Germany. Here's the press release around the release of O2's i-mode services. It mentions release dates in the UK, Ireland and Germany markets. The markets in which O2 offers services. Further down it mentions how O2 (at that time) owned Manx Telecom. It does not mention anything about a roll-out of i-mode services on the Isle of Man. Why? Because that's Manx Telecom, not O2. Whether Manx Telecom ever offered an i-mode service, I don't know. --RA (talk) 11:57, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Arguments for keeping "British Isles" at Quarth

Arguments against keeping "British Isles" at Quarth

Westward Ho! (Resolved)

The article currently states It is the only such place name in the British Isles, although Saint-Louis-du-Ha! Ha!, Quebec, shares the distinction of having an exclamation mark in its name. The relevant area is either "England" or "United Kingdom" or "Europe". --HighKing (talk) 13:22, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Polls

Britain and Ireland is an invalid equivalent for British Isles

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Some sources do use "Britain and Ireland" as an alternative to "British Isles". Some sources use it to mean "Great Britain and (the island of) Ireland". I'm not prepared to rule out the former just because there may be some confusion between the two uses. Disagree? WP:ANI is that-a-way. TFOWR 17:15, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Did we did pick up and finish the discussion Snowded raise above on the 24th of Sept regarding "Britain and Ireland being an invalid equivalent for British Isles"? Excuse me if I missed it due to my "holiday". If so, can anyone point out where and when it happened?

I think this hits the nail on the head and we have to address it for once and for all.

Britain and Ireland is not a valid equivalent for British Isles for all the reasons we keep having to repeat Britain and Ireland - or UK and I or UK and RoI etc.

Do we have a clear agreement on this? Let's keep this simple in the first place. --LevenBoy (talk) 00:17, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Its already referenced in the British Isles article LevenBoy --Snowded 03:47, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

We all know what it is. It may be referenced in the topic, or not but I am talking about what our position. You raised the issue.

We have a problem where individuals are attempting to insert Britain and Ireland as an equivalent for British Isles. Sometimes this even on the basis of a references that clearly refers to the British Isles as Britain and Ireland. How do we address this? --LevenBoy (talk) 03:58, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Case by case, but if the references say Britain and Ireland then its pretty clear --Snowded 04:04, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

I have to say, I think Snowded's last point is right here. We can't create a general rule for this, because it will depend on a number of factors in each case, including sourcing and context. I think all we can safely say is that sometimes it is a valid equivalent and other times it is not. This is why the argument often goes to geographical extent and is not simple, hence at some point we need to agree acceptable "spreads" of geographical mentions in some cases. This is not to say that there aren't a whole bunch of cases where BI is fully correct and the argument that it should be replaced with B&I fallacious; it's just that it can't be a "rule". So sorry but the basis of the alternatives presented below is not one founded in practical reality. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 07:23, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Is Isle of Man & Channel Islands considered to be included in the term Britain and Ireland? GoodDay (talk) 13:24, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Of course not. We all know that Isle of Man & Channel Islands part of Britain or Ireland. That would be a good second question though.

There is no proposal of a rule here. It is just a simple yes or no poll. HighKing, you are free to discuss or vote as you wish but please do not move other editors opinions or changing the poll after votes have been made.

Technically speaking, is "Britain and Ireland" is a valid equivalent for "British Isles"? --LevenBoy (talk) 18:27, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Another question could be is the Channel Islands a part of the British Isles? From a geographic point of view they are not. But then the term BI is not a purely geographic term but a political term used to describe the bounds of the UK government. Bjmullan (talk) 23:21, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Many months ago, there was a RfC on whether the CI were a part of the 'British Isles', but (if memory serves me right) it came to no conclusion. GoodDay (talk) 23:26, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Hang on, the moves of votes here are getting silly. Codf1977 is taking a similar position to mine, namely that its not a blanket equivalent but it is valid in some contexts; and King supported that. Wherever it sits neither Codf1977 or HighKing are supporting LevinBoys proposal. I'm not even voting as this is an absurd discussion. There is referenced material from RS in the main article which state that B&I is used as an equivalent. You can't outvote a reliable source and I'm not legitimising this particular bit of nonsense by taking part in it. And just to deal with a couple of issues

• Great Britain and Ireland excludes the Isle of Man but Britain and Ireland in common use doesn't
• If we make specific reference to the Archipelago of X, the in current usage X = "British Isles" although that might change over time

--Snowded 05:27, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

I guess it depends on how you define "equivalent" then. Can "Britain and Ireland" include exactly the same area as the British Isles? I have yet to see a single reliable source that says that is the case. The sources shown at presently simply mean instead of talking about the British Isles which some people think is controversial, some simply say Britain and Ireland. Its very different. BritishWatcher (talk) 09:41, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

One gets a feeling of counting the number of angels on the head of a pin here. There are sources that say B&I is increasingly used in preference to BI, we have actual examples of use in the Atlas name changes. So where people used to use the phrase BI they now use B&I for the same subject matter. Language evolves over time BW, mixing metaphors after counting the angels you have continued on to clutch at staws --Snowded 10:44, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Just because a rectangle of the world covered by an atlas is labelled something doesn't necessarily mean that some certain body in the rectangle is called that, although this is often the case. I'm not sure that these atlases are saying "this group of islands is called Britain and Ireland", I would think they were saying "this is the countries of Britain and Ireland". Just as they have a map for, say, "Germany", so they have for "Britain and Ireland". This would be political and not geographical. This whole discussion proves that the term is a case-by-case basis if you ask me. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 10:59, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

I've argued above its case by case so agree with you there. In your example however we are talking about Atlas publications that used to be titled "British Isles" and have changed to "Britain and Ireland" without changing content. So when looking for a collective name for the UK and Ireland along with the Isle of Mann etc. they have chose to use a different one.--Snowded 11:16, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

They may just be ignoring the Isle of Mann etc., I'm sure the exact political situation doesn't bother most people. Anyway, it's irrelevant, I think we should probably close all these polls, sapping time away from other things. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 11:19, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

They didn't but you are right all of these recent polls should be closed; off topic and time wasting --Snowded 11:21, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

These polls cut to the very nub of the debate. We will come to the question of references in a short while. Stop changing the poll after it has been set.

I am not asking question of "whether they are used or not".

I am asking the questions of whether techinically, legally, geographically these terms are equivalent and interchangeable.

That is to say, beyond the point of opinion.

The honest truth is, we all know they are not. There are no territorial disputes between the various nations or states. We are discussing a very stable legal defined geographic area. But it is only fair to poll individuals about their beliefs first. --LevenBoy (talk) 14:28, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

No, "Britain and Ireland" is not a valid equivalent for "British Isles"

• Agreed, as per common knowledge and endless references. --LevenBoy (talk) 00:17, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Which references state that Britain and Ireland and British Isles are not equivalent terms? There are many cited elsewhere that equate the two. --RA (talk) 17:55, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

• Agree - We shouldn't be using Britain and Ireland in place of British Isles on Misplaced Pages. GoodDay (talk) 13:46, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Surely thats not the question that was asked? Or was it ? Are we just talking about Misplaced Pages? Or in general conversational and editorial terms? I assumed it was a general question to try and hone a WP guideline in this area. I'm getting confused now. Fmph (talk) 07:18, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

I assume it concerns just Misplaced Pages. GoodDay (talk) 13:59, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

In that case this seems to be a circular discussion. If we are just talking about Misplaced Pages, then it is only a valid equivalent if the MOS says it is. Outside of Misplaced Pages (and its only outside of WP that counts as references to 'prove' the case) is a different case. Fmph (talk) 17:27, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

• Agree - "Britain and Ireland" excludes the Isle of Man which isn't a part of the UK. "British Isles" is the most well-known and commonly used name for the islands regardless of peoples political motivations. Mabuska 14:56, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
• Agree - Britain and Ireland is simply a completely alternative term to avoid talking about an archipelago in north west europe known as the British Isles. No reliable sources clearly stating "Britain and Ireland" is an archipelago in north west Europe have been provided. (as i have said on a couple of occasions, the wording at British Isles and British Isles naming dispute does not clearly explain the situation. People could easily read it as saying its an alternative name for the archipelago known as the British Isles, something that is not the case. BritishWatcher (talk) 18:21, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
• Agree - for the many reasons given above. Johnbod (talk) 20:00, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
• Agreed - It is clearly not a blanket equivalent for British Isles, however in some cases it's use can be appropriate. Codf1977 (talk) 06:21, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
• Agree with Codf1977. In most cases it's not equivalent, but in some cases it's use is appropriate. --HighKing (talk) 13:53, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, "Britain and Ireland" is a valid equivalent for "British Isles"

• Agreed, as per common knowledge and endless references. Fmph (talk) 14:37, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
• Agreed. The meanings of terms change over time. "Britain and Ireland" is a fuzzy term, that is used, in practice in the real world, to mean either the UK and Ireland (the state), or the islands of GB, Ireland, and the smaller ones around their shores, or both meanings simultaneously. Yes, WP should explore and tease out the technical differences between the terms, but it should also recognise that, in reality, most people do not necessarily use terminology with the same forensic accuracy employed by editors on this page, and not criticise or "teach" others to be "correct". The very fuzziness of the term encourages its wide use - it allows people to use the term without thinking about precisely which of several very slightly different things they mean. Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:00, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
• Agreed. "Britain and Ireland" is often used in place of "British Isles". Daicaregos (talk) 17:42, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
• Agreed. Not only is it equivalent but it is preferred by many as a more NPOV term. Bjmullan (talk) 17:47, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
• Agree per RS. Britain and Ireland is cited as "becoming preferred usage" (Davies:2000) or "is the more favoured expression" (Hazlett:2003) to British Isles for example. As with all terms in this arena (including British Isles), editors should consider what it most appropriate to the topic and to the context. Language in this arena is highly charged and use or non-use of any turns of phrase (even seemingly innocuous ones such as this) should be considered carefully. --RA (talk) 18:01, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
• Agree with Codf1977. In most cases it's not equivalent, but in some cases it's use is appropriate.

Are the Isle of Man & Channel Islands a part of the United Kingdom or Republic of Ireland? (Resolved)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

This is very silly. The Isle of Man is a self-governing British Crown Dependency. It is neither part of the United Kingdom nor the Republic of Ireland. Likewise, the Channel Islands are an archipelago of British Crown Dependencies, none of which are part of either the United Kingdom or the Republic or Ireland. These aren't things we can change via a silly poll - they're commonly known facts which could have been easily ascertained simply by reading the relevant articles and the associated references. This poll has nothing to do with a specific example of usage of the term "British Isles", and I'm closing it. TFOWR 11:41, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Following GoodDay above, another simple poll.

Are the Isle of Man (islands) & the Channel Islands part of the United Kingdom or the Republic of Ireland? (If yes, please state part of which nation). --LevenBoy (talk) 18:36, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Are the Isle of Man & Channel Islands a part of the United Kingdom or Republic of Ireland? (Clarification)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

It's gone to WP:AN. TFOWR 17:46, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Please, TFOWR, allow me to go through this slowly and logically without disruption. These are important leading questions.

Just to clarifying then, do we all agree that Isle of Man & Channel Islands a part of the United Kingdom or Republic of Ireland then?

The correct answer is "no, Isle of Man & Channel Islands a part of the United Kingdom nor Republic of Ireland". I just want to make sure we are all singing from the same hymn book.

TFOWR, I would prefer to ask you to open the poll again and allow it to complete with all regular commentators contributing. There is no good reason to close it early.

It is not "beyond the scope of this page to decided this". It has already been legal decided a long time ago by the governments involved. --LevenBoy (talk) 14:36, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

No, I'm not going to re-open the poll. It is completely beyond the scope of this page to decide this, for precisely the reason you yourself cite: the status of the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands are legal issues, decided by the respective governments - not by a bunch of anonymous editors on a website. What possible benefit would derive from having this poll? (Hint: none). TFOWR 14:40, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

OK. May I re-open the poll then without being threatened with a blocking or banning?

There is no question of "whether it is within or without the scope of this page to decide".

The matter has already been decided by the governments involved.

What I am polling is contributors' knowledge of those decisions and acceptance of it. --LevenBoy (talk) 14:52, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

I take the view that re-opening it would be disruptive. Polling contributors' knowledge is off-topic. Contributors' knowledge of constitutional law is of no relevance here - what matters is contributors' knowledge of Misplaced Pages policy and precedent. TFOWR 14:56, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

I am sorry but no. I have 3 very simple questions. How on earth can you say knowledge of constitutional matters are of no relevance when we are discussing and deciding matters of nation and statehood? If contributors do not know, then I will provide them with those details. Where individuals genuinely do not know, surely they need to start with that understanding, don't they?

Does Misplaced Pages really work on the basis of precedents? I think you are wrong there. --LevenBoy (talk) 15:00, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Howabout transferring those questions to your own talkpage & invite folks there to participate. GoodDay (talk) 15:03, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

There is no question that the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands are not part of the United Kingdom or the Republic of Ireland. All your poll serves to do is to examine contributors' knowledge. As GoodDay says, you can do that on your own talk page. Not here. This page certainly does work on policy and precedent: not on votes, polls, opinions or any other cruft. TFOWR 15:06, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

It is called consensus building, TFOWR, which is Misplaced Pages precedent.

I would rather TFOWR just answered the question or, even better, allowed each and every individual to answer the question. Just to clarifying then, do we all agree that Isle of Man & Channel Islands are not part of either the United Kingdom or Republic of Ireland then? --LevenBoy (talk) 15:07, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

They're not a part of the UK or the RoI. Howabout having this questions at your talkpage? GoodDay (talk) 15:09, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Consensus never overrides policy, and consensus never overrides reality. A consensus that "the sky is red" will never be an acceptable reason to change the article Sky to describe a state that is unrelated to reality. TFOWR 15:11, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Good. I agree. Reality does override consensus and policy.

I have three simple questions to be discussed here with everyone in order to gain the mandate of all users.

At present, TFOWER you are blocking that consensus being agreed and made by your actions and creating more disruption than if we just ran the poll. I actually think you are acting beyond your authority.

We are agreeing what reality is. --LevenBoy (talk) 15:12, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Would it be alright to move these questions to BISE's main page? GoodDay (talk) 15:21, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Sure, if it keeps the disruption on this page down. I still think LevenBoy's talkpage would be the best bet, but LevenBoy seems determined to have this poll somewhere visible. So long as the disruption here stops, I don't really care. TFOWR 15:24, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

If you want to "poll reality", you can do it on your talkpage. If you want to check whether I'm acting beyond my authority, you can do it at WP:ANI. The poll is off-topic here because it serves no purpose - we all already know what the constituional status is of the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man, and it will not, in any event, be decided here. TFOWR 15:24, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

OK, I will. You are twisting my words to insult and provoke me TROWR. I never said I wanted to "poll reality". I am polling what other users' positions are on the most pertinent questions relating to the British Isles naming dispute and you are disrupting it. The poll had support and you are causing more disruption by closing it early than if it was allowed to run. --LevenBoy (talk) 16:05, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

With it transfered to the mainpage, I reckon it'll be alright to 're-open' the closure-in-question. GoodDay (talk) 16:07, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

I'll take responsibility for pushing TFOWR in the direction of a closure, as I suggested it one his talk page. I'd rather this be moved to LevenBoy's talk page, if it is opened somewhere else.

Everyone here agrees that Crown dependencies are not part of the UK or Ireland. EVERYONE. If anyone ever argues otherwise, I'm sure they'd be shut down by other editors very fast. The poll serves no great purpose. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 16:09, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

This was an attempt to derail the discussion above. It was incredibly WP:POINTy, and I've warned the editor responsbile. TFOWR 16:14, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Tad harsh reaction if you ask me, I can see it as a perfectly goodfaith non-pointy change, an editor combining two polls he set up under a greater heading. Still, your edit summary was nice. Anyway, combined or not, shift it please. Somewhere, anywhere, not on the specific example page. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 16:26, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

The combining of the polls was fine (though I'd prefer it if people didn't refactor discussions once people have contributed to them): it was the martyr-tastic "Forbidden" heading change. If LevenBoy wants to complain about being forbidden to dick around, they can do it at ANI where folk have an even lower tolerance for disruption and WP:POINTy nonsense. TFOWR 16:59, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Let's keep the Polls together for just now as they are linked to from ANI. The problem is, there are too many discussion places. We should have just one. Everyone who cares about these issues from whatever point of view is here, so let's address the matter peacefully here.

I am sorry but the Poll was not "resolved" it was unilaterally closed.--LevenBoy (talk) 17:36, 10 October 2010 (UTC)--LevenBoy (talk) 17:36, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Indeed. A snow close, with everyone agreeing with the bleeding obvious. It's best if discussion on this pointless poll continue at ANI. TFOWR 17:39, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

What do we do when a reference contradicts technical facts?

3rd quick poll, please bear with me on this because there are editors from outside of the British Isles that will not appreciate the subtle technicalities of this discussion. Bear in mind that most of the rest of the world thinks England is Britain and has not a clue where the Isles of Man are, or why it is such a big issue.

• We are all, basically, in agreement that, legally or technically, "Britain and Ireland" is not actually equivalent to "British Isles".
• TFOWR has unilaterally decided that we all agree that neither the Isle of Man & Channel Islands are parts of either the United Kingdom or Republic of Ireland. I disagree with the way in which he did so but I agree with his conclusion. It just would have been better to get everyone's mandate on it. This is all really to address an issue Snowded raised sometime ago on the page above.

What do we do when a given reference contradicts what we know to be technical accurate, e.g. a reference calling the British Isles "Britain and Ireland" to the exclusion of the IoM and/or CI?

We are all, basically, in agreement that, legally or technically, "Britain and Ireland" is not actually equivalent to "British Isles" We are? It looks to me like the two "sides" are about evenly matched in terms of numbers. I've not looked at the arguments, however.

There was, I thought, a third option in the B&I/BI poll saying "sometimes" equivalent. To my mind that highlighted why this was one area where a blanket ruling would be impossible - sources use terms in varying ways. We do what we always do: we cite the source, and explain/clarify any discrepancy. None of this should be new to us - this isn't an issue that's arisen out of the blue, an issue that the community hasn't thought of previously or encountered before. TFOWR 18:16, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

@LB, can we see an example of an issue? --HighKing (talk) 19:47, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

I am sorry TFOWR but I must remind you politely, you don't speak for anyone else but yourself. Please allow others to speak for themselves because everyone has their own specific point of view.

You have already derailed one poll causing a massive disruption where you clearly could and should have "assumed good faith". There is an open channel of communication between us, please ask first. Essentially you are only an equal here, despite your administrator tools. You do not act on others behalf.

@HighKing, e.g. one thing that has come up is Fmph's comment at 14:37, 8 October 2010 saying, "Britain and Ireland is a valid equivalent for British Isles". If that can be true, it contradicts the 2nd Poll which everyone agreed the Isle of Man and Channel Islands are not in UK nor Ireland.

Sorry, I don't see a contradiction. One poll asked if it is a valid equivalent. Another poll asked if the Crown Dependencies were a part of the UK or Ireland. Both polls are answered. Yes, they are used as valid equivalents. But No, they are not part of UK or Ireland. This perceived contradiction should help you understand why some Irish people find it equally contradictory to find Ireland as part of the "British" Isles. --HighKing (talk) 15:05, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

In such a case, I would like to ask him to explain directly how and where the Isle of Man and Channel Islands exactly fit in then. --LevenBoy (talk) 14:42, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

No need to apologise. But to pick up on your plaintive "allow others to speak for themselves because everyone has their own specific point of view." I'll gladly do so - what I'm not prepared to do it allow off-topic discussions and/or polls. Take it to ANI if you disagree with that stance. In this case, seeing as you have taken it to ANI, simply accept the result. TFOWR 14:48, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Wait a sec. IoM and/or CI are not a part of the UK or RoI. However IoM & CI are generally grouped with the islands called Ireland & Great Britain. GoodDay (talk) 15:08, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Correct. One name for such a grouping is "British Isles". Another name is "Britain and Ireland". "Britain and Ireland" isn't always equivalent: sometimes it just means " Britain and Ireland". Hence the value in the "Britain and Ireland" poll. And, indeed, in considering each case on its merits. There's no such value in considering whether the Isle of Man is part of the United Kingdom etc etc, unless one wanted to attempt to make a WP:POINT. TFOWR 15:17, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

This is where you have to be very careful TFOWR because on one hand you are playing the part of an impartial judge and jury (chairman) but here you are expressing a personal opinion which is technically wrong. "Britain and Ireland" is not a name. I think you should play either one role or the other.

To state the obvious, "Britain and Ireland" are two clearly defined names and exclusive of the CI, as we have agreed. No one would or could argue the CIs are in Britain or Ireland. Personally, I would not argue that the IoM is in Britain either. Last time I looked, it was off Britain. Britain and British Islands are not synonymous. --LevenBoy (talk) 15:55, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Be sure not to mix up UK & RoI with GB & I. GoodDay (talk) 15:57, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

You're confusing "Britain and Ireland" with "Britain" and "Ireland". The former is a term that is sometimes used as an equivalent to "British Isles" - that's not (I believe?) disputed. What's disputed is when it's appropriate to use it as an alternative to "British Isles". The latter is the name of two islands. I don't believe I am expressing a personal opinion - I'm simply explaining to you what the issue at hand is. If you want my personal opinion - it's that "Britain and Ireland" is less than ideal, precisely because of the ambiguity you've fallen into. But that's just my personal opinion which, as you say, is something I seek to avoid. What matters is the well-reasoned arguments of other participants. TFOWR 16:09, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Legal and geographically, there is no confusion. I suggest the only way to avoid conflict is to stick to what is clearly defined. You have just clarified that for us. IoM and CI are in neither and so, logically, Britain and Ireland cannot mean British Isles.

"Britain and Ireland" means "Britain" and "Ireland". The problem that we have is, that in an area of dispute, individuals are using a mixed quality and age of references. This is why I want to poll whether we "Follow what we know to be technically accurate or the literal words of the references". It is impossible for us to mystically divine what each and every author meant when they wrote "Britain and Ireland". They may have just be slack, chauvanist, colloquial or plain wrong, that is why I am asking, do we go along with what is erroneous or adopt a policy of technical accuracy. Do we accept what is clearly defined as a priority.

If we are honest, the cause of the confusion in this whole dispute is the Irish editors confusing a 2,000 year old term taken from the native Celtic-language name (Brettanic Isles from which we get British Isles), with the crimes of the United Kingdom. --LevenBoy (talk) 17:01, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

LevenBoy, if you're unable to accept that some sources do use "Britain and Ireland" as an alternative to "British Isles", there's not much I can do to help you. We consider each source on its merits - some clearly do use "Britain and Ireland" as an alternative to "British Isles", while others are less precise in their use. I'm not going to make a blanket ruling saying that we run away from the challenge and only consider sources that use "British Isles" because it's "easier". Dealing with challenges is part and parcel of editing - not just here at WT:BISE but in general.

And if you make a crack at other editors again, I will start remembering your civility parole. TFOWR 17:11, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

There was no "crack at other editors" above, so please wind down your threats and remove it. I mean the authors of the original references which individuals are chosing to quoting. --LevenBoy (talk) 18:18, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

...the cause of the confusion in this whole dispute is the Irish editors confusing... You have been told time and time again to comment on contributions, not contributors. TFOWR 18:21, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, and we are dealing with that matter over at ANI. It is impossible to discuss the matter with discussion the matter and so please do not conflate to separate issues by dragging partial and prejudicial statements, out of context, and back here where it will obvious cause disruption.

My full comment was, ... If we are honest here, the historical problem that has caused the naming dispute is Engligh chauvanism over the Irish. I accept that. If we are honest, the Misplaced Pages naming dispute was about primarily Irish editors trying attempting to replace every incident of British Isles with "Britain and Ireland". I understand the Irish's feelings. The problem is, we cannot resolve Engligh chauvanism over the Irish with British and Irish chauvanism over the Manx (Isle of Man) or Channel Islanders .... --LevenBoy (talk) 18:31, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

No, your comment was If we are honest, the cause of the confusion in this whole dispute is the Irish editors confusing a 2,000 year old term taken from the native Celtic-language name (Brettanic Isles from which we get British Isles), with the crimes of the United Kingdom. You seem to be confusing your comment at WP:AN with your comment here. I'm quoting the latter. You raised an issue here, I addressed it here. TFOWR 18:36, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Ignore the techincal error and use the words of the reference

Follow what we know to be technically accurate

• Agree. Technical accurate, or reality as TFOWR calls it above, has priority above opinion or consensus. --LevenBoy (talk) 18:03, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Other possible alternatives

Follow the MOS or the consensus. This is what usually happens whenever there is a confusion of terminology. The reason I know that is because we've been doing it here for many moths now. Fmph (talk) 19:39, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Problem, there is no MOS yet. TFOWR has thankfully made it clear that reality takes priority over policy and consensus. We are dealing with areas which have clearly establish legal existences and definitions. --LevenBoy (talk) 14:42, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Keep in mind above all: United Kingdom does not equal Great Britain & Republic of Ireland does not equal Ireland (the island). GoodDay (talk) 15:15, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

If I may offer a drive-by opinion, is this usage in a direct quotation or a paraphrase? If it's a direct quotation, it should be quoted exactly as the writer presented, warts & all. If it's in a paraphrase, then the wording needs to be considered. -- llywrch (talk) 17:44, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Coming late to this after a days travel I have got to ask why LevenBoy is raising the same issues again and again. We have citations which establish B&I is used as an alternative to BI; we have clear citations that the etymology of the term BI starts with Dee. This is 101 Misplaced Pages stuff; references from reliable sources. --Snowded 21:27, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Categories

What is the current state of play regarding adding British Isles related categories? --LevenBoy (talk) 00:33, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

No comments? What is the bottomline? Is adding categories equivalent to adding terminology to topics, or not? --LevenBoy (talk) 17:39, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes. --HighKing (talk) 19:48, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

In your opinion. Show me where that is stated. I think categories are a different case because with categories you can have numerous overlapping categories without any conflicting "either/or" situations. "Both" situation are possible. --LevenBoy (talk) 14:45, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

United Kingdom

Talk:United Kingdom templated. Wikiproject talks templated: Misplaced Pages talk:UK Wikipedians' notice board, Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject UK geography

Well, I'm sure this is an interesting article to be brought here. I bring it up because I noticed in geography "It includes Lough Neagh, at 388 square kilometres (150 sq mi), the largest body of water in the UK and Ireland." The source calls it the largest body of water in "Britain and Ireland". I don't think saying it is the largest body of water in the UK and Ireland is correct, as in an article about the UK saying it is the largest in the United Kingdom and somewhere else is pointless. Using British Isles puts it in a better, and I think more relevant context. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 14:34, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

If you approach this geographically, LN is the largest body of water on the island of Ireland. If you approach this politically, LN is the largest body of water in the United Kingdom. GoodDay (talk) 14:40, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps, but notability is conveyed through area. The article on Nepal, for example, states that mount everest is one of the highest peaks in the world. Tanzania calls Kilimanjaro Africa's highest peak. There is no need to shrink it just down to Ireland. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 14:50, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Saying that Lough Neagh is the largest lake in the UK and Ireland is actually correct, if you are referring to the two countries, sharing as they do the same group of islands. It's also more all-encompassing than using Great Britain and Ireland, because those are only the two largest in a large number of islands within that group. I do rather think that the former is a better description. -- role 15:05, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Well it does seem to me a case of mixing countries and islands here - just change it to "...body of water in the British Isles" using Oxford dictionary of Celtic mythology By James MacKillop as a ref. Codf1977 (talk) 16:44, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Arguments for using "British Isles" in respect of Lough Neagh at United Kingdom

• Removes a case of mixing Countries and islands, simpler, all encompassing and above all is supported by a source Codf1977 (talk) 16:54, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
• "largest body of water in the British Isles" reads better than the current "largest body of water in the UK and Ireland"
• Larger geographical area provides greater notability, the lake should be described for what it's notable for. Just as Kilimanjaro is decribed as Africa's largest mountain in the Tanzania article, so the lough should be regarded as the largest lake in the British Isles. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 17:10, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
• It is British Isles because it is a geographical matter not a political matter. Lough Neagh exists in Ireland (island) and Britain (the political state). Using BI resolves all the likely problems arising if you use Ireland. --LevenBoy (talk) 14:40, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
• The Lough Neagh already states it's the biggest lake in the British Isles. We should maintain consistency. LemonMonday Talk 16:30, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Arguments against using "British Isles" in respect of Lough Neagh at United Kingdom

• Lough Neagh is the largest body of water in the United Kingdom. Factual and succinct, and as the article is about the United Kingdom, anything else is superfluous. Daicaregos (talk) 17:32, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Don't agree, if, for the sake of argument Lough Neagh was the largest body of water in Europe no one would have an issue with the article reading "Lough Neagh was the largest body of water in Europe" Codf1977 (talk) 18:11, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

• No discernible benefit to the article. It would merely replace one set of terms with another. Either turn of phrase is correct. However, tokenistic changing of terms in this charged arena is inadvisable. Unless there is an error, leave well enough alone. There are no erroneous or problematic use of term. Lough Neagh is the largest body of water in the UK, in Ireland, and in "the UK and Ireland" (a synonymous turn of phrase to British Isles). Example usage: "Lough Rd leads west from the town centre to Antrim Lough Shore Park, where the vast size of Lough Neagh – the largest lake in the UK and Ireland (see also p621 ) – is apparent." (Lonely Planet guide to Ireland.) --RA (talk) 17:48, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

There is benefit as it scans better, "the UK and Ireland" is not the same as "British Isles" and as the British Isles is a large entity than the combination of the UK and ROI, it stands to reason it is more notable. Codf1977 (talk) 18:11, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Notability is not the same as "larger". Bear in mind too that the article is about the United Kingdom. Also, "scans" is a matter of preference, about which one's objectivity can be influenced by many factors (including a preference for certain terms regardless of how they "scan").

Unless there is a problem with use of terminology then the proposal here is simply to exchange one set of terms with another. There are no problems that I can see with the use of terminology in the sentence. --RA (talk) 19:21, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

It scans better?? Eh ... No.  :-) --HighKing (talk) 14:33, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

• As that article is about the UK (thus political), we can say ..largest body of water within the UK. Now, if LN were mentioned at Great Britain and/or Ireland? I'd have no probs with mentioning British Isles. GoodDay (talk) 18:53, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
• Article is about the UK, and its the largest body of water in the UK. The Loch Neagh article is the geographical one where the largest unit argument comes into play --Snowded 21:09, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
• Since the subject matter is the UK, then we should stick with stating facts about the UK. A nice infobox would be great with "Highest Mountain", "Longest River", etc, all detailed. --HighKing (talk) 14:39, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Has that been done before? If you can point me to a page with that sort of infobox on it, I'd appreciate it. Be useful I reckon, irrespective of this debate. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 15:16, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Hmmmm....I thought it had but I can't find an article that uses an infobox like that....if I come across one I'll let you know. --HighKing (talk) 19:43, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

But the subject matter is also body of water in Ireland. Anything non-political should stick with geographical references. --LevenBoy (talk) 17:42, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Arguments for using "Britain and Ireland" in respect of Lough Neagh at United Kingdom

• As per source. " ... in the UK and Ireland ..." sounds tortuous. If we stick with UK&I it should change to " ... in both the UK and Ireland ..." Fmph (talk) 18:39, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Even your alternate wording is still tortuous, and as we have this source we can get around that by just using British Isles. Codf1977 (talk) 18:43, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

"Source hunting" does not benefit decisions making around this topic, regardless of whether it is to remove British Isles or to add it. It misses the point of Misplaced Pages:Verifiability and has a ring of gaming and battling to it.

In many cases, such as this one, sources use a multitude of terms (including, in this case, saying that Lough Neagh is the largest body of water in "the UK and Ireland"; see above). In other cases, no source we find may say British Isles (or another turn of phrase). That doesn't matter. The point is that the statement made is supported by references. It doesn't matter whether or not the same words are used that statement as are a used in the reference. --RA (talk) 19:29, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

It's about the UK so keep it the UK. Bjmullan (talk) 16:40, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Arab slave trade (Resolved)

Not sure of this wikilink by BW here, neither do I think that Ireland was every involved in any slave trading, but I may be wrong (could be the same for IoM and CI). Would be interesting to know if the reference mentions Ireland. (Funny enough I'm in Bristol this evening which was probably the capital of the triangular trade). Bjmullan (talk) 21:39, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

BW's edit was to re-link after this edit, and following on from this discussion. TFOWR 21:44, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Maybe surprising, but the slave trade described there is not trade in people from Africa captured by folk from these islands and the mainland and traded form here to the Arabs. The slaves being referred to are people from these islands that were stolen form here by Arab raiders. The entire population of the village of Baltimore, County Cork, for example, was taken into slavery in 1631. The Claddagh ring is said to have originated with a man (Richard Joyce from Galway) captured by Arab pirates in 1675 and kept as a slave by an Algerian goldsmith, where he learnt his trade. He is said to have designed the ring on gaining his freedom.

Use of British Isles (and linking it) is fine. --RA (talk) 21:53, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Sorry guys I did to a quick search but didn't see this thread. Bjmullan (talk) 21:56, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

No harm, no foul ;-) And I learned something, too, which is always a bonus! TFOWR 21:59, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

User_talk:DerBorg (Resolved)

Last one from me :-) Noticed that User_talk:DerBorg has been added the category BI to a couple of articles. I have reverted these edit (with edit notes) and left a message of his talk page (BRD). Hope that was OK? Now I'm off to bed. Bjmullan (talk) 22:02, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

My 2¢ is that it's fine for the few articles I have seen that user add it to. Per the template docs, the heading can be pipe linked on pages where it is objected to. --RA (talk) 22:13, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Really i've transcluded the template:British Isles and not the same-named category here and here with edit notes (as you can see on the links). I've transcluded them because i've found the 2 articles still listed (not by me) on that navbox. Sorry if I gave problems to the standards of this project but it was a transclusion of template, not of a general category. I hope that this misunderstanding was cleared because in my work I always search to avoid to include articles into too much general categories, searching for specific subcategories. Greetings. --Dэя-Бøяg 01:01, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Looks fine to me - this is the relevant part of the British Isles template:

...I've bolded the two articles that DerBorg added the template to. TFOWR 07:57, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

• Not so sure - the Principality of Wales ends before British Isles comes into use (per etymology) so that should probably be removed --Snowded 09:04, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
  • That would be a "Principality of Wales" issue, not a "DerBorg" issue, however. TFOWR 09:49, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, it's a Welsh issue, not Derborgian ;-) . Of course, i have still found them listed by others on the template (i have no edits on BI navbox). Reguards. --Dэя-Бøяg 12:12, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

The British Isles is just modern English for Pretannic, Bretannic or Britannic Isles. In the real world its current retrospective use is not limited to its etymological introduction and it passes according to Misplaced Pages policy and consensus e.g. see, Roman London, Scotland during the Roman Empire etc etc etc. --LevenBoy (talk) 15:34, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

That may be your perspective but the authoritative source on etymology places its start with Dee. The fact that you have Latin and Greek terms that can translate into something similar has nothing to do with this. --Snowded 05:52, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Translating place-names is tricky business. Especially since it's a relative new phenomenon to separate a place-name from the people that live there. The ancients didn't usually name places in a descriptive way - they simply named them after the people living in those places, or copied what those people already called the places. Anyway, what that boils down to is that "Pretannic" was the name of the tribe, not the name of the island. So it was the "Islands of the Pretannic" to mean the islands where the Pretannic dwell. It's a very modern thinking to even rethink that as "The Pretannic Islands" which confers ownership (in the modern English Language). It was only really in Dee's time that the practice of naming places to confer "ownership" became popular, mainly to fuel expansion and colonisation. --HighKing (talk) 10:22, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Didn't John Dee's resurrection of "British" have something to do with Elizabeth's Welsh ancestry? The good Doctor was, if I remember rightly, "sucking up" to the Faerie Queen (probably in an attempt to get further funding for his "research". I really shouldn't mock 16th century scientific research, but it's too easy...) (Sorry, this is a wee bit off-topic, but Dee is a fascinating character and not exactly the kind of guy I can discuss down the pub... my locals aren't conducive for this kind of conversation). TFOWR 10:47, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Seems like Dee had more plots up his sleeve than Shakespeare most of the time. As regards personal interest, many of us Wikipedians suffer from the same paucity of intellectual company prepared to discuss our obsessions I suspect! There's always the John Dee Society for the true devotee. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 15:02, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Wow! That's brilliant! Most of what I know about John Dee I know through Peter Ackroyd's book, The House of Doctor Dee, which is, obviously, fiction. But truth seems stranger than fiction: I never knew Dee was the reason the Spanish Armada failed (he put a hex on the armada!) TFOWR 19:56, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I saw that, LOL. Perhaps it should be introduced as a factoid with some undue haste over at John Dee with the flimsiest possible sourcing, naturlich. On a slightly more academic note, the Beeb (with whom I have some slight connection) are currently making a programme for BBC4 about Dee which will be shown I think next Spring, so watch out for that. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 21:11, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

States of Alderney

The States of Alderney appear to lack any mention of the British Isles in the content and template boxes. The template boxes look as though they need some attention. It would not seem to be controversial to include mention somewhere. --LevenBoy (talk) 15:26, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Since they're a part of the Channel Islands, I've no probs with mentioning British Isles within the article. GoodDay (talk) 15:28, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Isn't Alderney a bailiwick of Guernsey (and hence covered implicitly)? I don't know - I'm basing this on decades' old memories of Summer holidays... TFOWR 15:29, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, answering a completely different question (adding Alderney to the BI template). Looking at States of Alderney, my first thought is that the article is focussed on the government of Alderney, and BI would be better suited to the Alderney article, if it's not already covered (I've not looked yet). TFOWR 15:37, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Fair enough, the same question applies to both. It has its own government and president. It is part of the CIs and BIs, and non-controversial. --LevenBoy (talk) 15:39, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

What change are you proposing to make, and to which article? TFOWR 16:45, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

See above to my question on categories. Personally, I do not see anywhere that says there are any sanctions being placed on introducing categories to any topic, as long as they are relative and individuals do not start edit warring over them. They are merely non-exclusive sorting devices. --LevenBoy (talk) 17:05, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

I still don't see what change you're proposing be made, and to which article. Alderney or States of Alderney, or both? I gather the change has something to do with categories, however: what category are you proposing be added/removed? TFOWR 18:50, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

It's hard to know what is being proposed here or what problem exists in the article. Is it simply the absence of the phrase British Isles from the text of the article that is a problem? --RA (talk) 23:03, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

North Channel (Great Britain and Ireland)

This one was renamed from North Channel (British Isles) a while ago without adequate discussion (maybe no discussion). The article is purely geographic and British Isles describes the setting of the channel. The fact that the channel runs between Northern Ireland and Scotland, or the islands of Great Britain and Ireland, should be clarified in the text. I recommend renaming this article accordingly. LemonMonday Talk 16:37, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Hold the phone. Somebody appears to have deleted our article on the Irish Channel naming dispute. MickMacNee (talk) 17:17, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes Mick hold the phone. The Channel Islands have drifted north from the French coast are are causing delays for the Stena Line ferries between Belfast and Stranraer. I would certainly object to using BI because the North Channel only effect two main islands. But why not rename the article "North Channel" and create a disambiguation page to the only other English article which is North Channel (Ontario)? Bjmullan (talk) 17:50, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Channel Islands are irrelevant here, and your mocking remarks could be construed as a breach of civility (I imagine). They also add nothing to the debate so I guess they will be ignored. LemonMonday Talk 18:13, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

MickMacNee, Bjmullan those comments aren't helpful. TFOWR 20:02, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

• FYI: There's previously been a straw poll on the article's talk page. Consensus can change, etc etc. TFOWR 20:07, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Agree TROWR & sorry. But the second part of my post is serious and was used to defuse a contentious topic not long ago that I was involved at Shane Duffy. Worth thinking about. Bjmullan (talk) 20:32, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Disclosure: Bardcom is my old username. Hmmm ... looking back, I was a little bollix at times. Belated apologies :-) --HighKing (talk) 21:49, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Arguments for reverting to "British Isles" at North Channel (Great Britain and Ireland)

Arguments for retaining "Great Britain and Ireland" at North Channel (Great Britain and Ireland)

• If the Isle of Man had been within the North Channel? I'd have argued for reversion. But, since it's not? let's go with GB & I. GoodDay (talk) 21:30, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
• Either use Scotland and Northern Ireland, or use Great Britain and Ireland. --HighKing (talk) 21:48, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
• No discernible benefit to the article. Change would simply exchange of one set of terms for another. No terms are used in error or in a problematic manner. If the straw poll on the talk page resulted in a decision to place the article at the current location it is not the business of this task force to reverse that decision. --RA (talk) 23:03, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Agrochola nitida

The article states "It is found in most of Europe, except Great Britain, Ireland and the Iberian Peninsula." Use of "Great Britain, Ireland" is a clear euphemism here for British Isles and the terminology should be replaced to the more accurate British Isles - are we saying it's found in the IoM? At present we could be, so using British Isles should help to clarify it. LemonMonday Talk 16:44, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Do you have any references, either for "British Isles" or for either of the Isle of Man or the Channel Islands? TFOWR 16:53, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

I can accept usage of 'British Isles' as Iberian Peninsula is being used. GoodDay (talk) 22:09, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Arguments for "British Isles" at Agrochola nitida

• The article uses Iberian Peninsula, thereofore no probs with using 'British Isles', too. GoodDay (talk) 22:40, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Arguments against "British Isles" at Agrochola nitida

• No discernible benefit to the article. A change would simply exchange of one set of terms for another of the same (or essentially the same) meaning. No terms are used in error or in a manner that is problematic. --RA (talk) 23:03, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Livery yard

At present the article states "A livery yard or livery stable (Great Britain, Ireland), or boarding stable (Australia, North America)". Again, Great Britain and Ireland appears to be used as a euphemism for British Isles. British Isles would be more accurate and would be in keeping with the geographic regions used in the same statement - Australia and North America. Again, if we don't use British Isles here we are being ambiguous. LemonMonday Talk 16:48, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Do you have any references, either for "British Isles" or for either of the Isle of Man or the Channel Islands? TFOWR 16:53, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

This sounds like something that should be done by countries, not be geographic regions. That, or English dialects. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 17:14, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

We don't care if you say "British Isles" over some other terminology. Just so you know, WPEQ doesn't have a dog in this fight. Just feel free to fix it when you guys decide. Montanabw 19:47, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

I'd be tempted here to have British Isles for livery and then Australasia, North America) for boarding stable - if that doesn't work then it should be countries. Per prior discussion, don't mix geographical names with country names use one or other consistently --Snowded 21:35, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Since it's essentially part of the American and British English differences, I'd prefer to refer to the differences with relation to dialects which is far better and more accurate. --HighKing (talk) 22:28, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

*Cough* Australia ;-) TFOWR 22:35, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

*nudge* Australian English ;-) --HighKing (talk) 22:41, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

In agreement with Snowded. Use all countries or all geographic names. GoodDay (talk) 22:45, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Arguments for "British Isles" at Livery yard

Arguments against "British Isles" at Livery yard

• No discernible benefit to article, simply an exchange of one set of terms for another. No terms are used erroneously or in a manner that is problematic.
  Also the arguments put forward are ill-concieved (i.e. that British Isles "would be in keeping with the geographic regions used in the same statement"). The geographic terms currently used are three islands (Great Britain, Ireland and Australia) and a continent (North America). Exchaning two of these islands for British Isles would further mix the geographic units mentioned, leading to an island, an archipelago and a continent being mixed in one sentence. That is not necessarily a problem, but it highlights how the argument is ill-concieved.
  I notice this user has few contributions outside of this area. --RA (talk) 23:03, 12 October 2010 (UTC)