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    User:Atabəy

    No action taken.
    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

    Request concerning User:Atabəy

    User requesting enforcement
    Kansas Bear (talk) 18:25, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    Atabəy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
    Sanction or remedy that this user violated
    Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan 2
    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
    1. 1st revert
    2. 2nd revert

    Clarification:

    • 1. Revert limitation (formerly known as revert parole). You are limited to one revert per page per week, excepting obvious vandalism, and are required to discuss any content reversions on the page's talk page.
    • 2. Supervised editing (formerly known as probation). You may be banned by any administrator from editing any or all articles which relate to the region of Turkey, Armenia, Azerbaijan and Iran and the ethnic and historical issues related to that area should you fail to maintain a reasonable degree of civility in your interactions with one another concerning disputes which may arise.
    • 3. Civility supervision (formerly known as civility parole). If you make any edits which are judged by an administrator to be uncivil, personal attacks, or assumptions of bad faith, then you may be blocked for a short time of up to one week for repeat offenses.
    Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
    1. Warning by Kansas Bear (talk · contribs)
    Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)
    Up to the discretion of admins.
    Additional comments by editor filing complaint
    As seen here, User:Atabəy reaction stems directly from the deletion of articles Malibeyli and Gushchular Massacre, Garadaghly Massacre, Agdaban massacre. His/her reaction has been to tag spam articles Maraghar Massacre and Kirovabad pogrom. Any attempt at adding references are met with revertion and the statement, "De Waal used HRW reference in his book, HRW says it is alleged",. This is in direct violation of AA2, which limits any Armenian-Azerbaijan article to 1RR.

    I would also like to point out that User:Atabəy was one of the original editors involved in AA2 and therefore was clearly aware of his violation.

    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

    Discussion concerning User:Atabəy

    Statement by User:Atabəy

    User:Kansas Bear claims that he warned me over: here for allegedly saying "De Waal is from Armenian sources", and then called it a battleground mentality. Yet, What I said on the talk page is the following (precisely): "The primary source citing them was Armenian eyewitness used by Human Rights Watch, which was quoted in De Waal's book". I don't see how telling this fact is considered a battleground mentality, so obviously Kansas Bear was grossly misinterpreting my words on talk page and assuming bad faith in making the warning he indicated above.

    The whole issue with this case stems from the fact, User:MarshallBagramyan, a participant of A-A ArbCom cases, has initiated a deletion of Agdaban massacre, Malibeyli and Gushchular Massacre, Garadaghly Massacre pages. All three pages relate to factually established massacres of Azerbaijanis by Armenian forces in the course of Nagorno-Karabakh War. The deletion was carried out by supportive administrator User:Buckshot06, who did so without following any formal procedures, as indicated by administrator here. Also per User:Buckshot06's own admission here, his deletion was based solely on his personal impression of User:MarshallBagramyan and no other procedural or objective reasoning.

    After lengthy discussion at , and requests to deleting administrator to undo the deletion, I followed admin suggestion and filed this case at WP:DRV, which concluded in an overturn of deleting administrator's action.

    Thus the intimidating actions of User:MarshallBagramyan and supportive editors constitute a WP:BATTLE, clearly aimed at initiating the removal of factually-supported articles describing massacres of one side, while defending other articles, without sufficient research or discussion. Reviewing administrators are welcome to look into history of my edits in Maraghar Massacre article under discussion to find out that I placed notability tag and actually contributed well researched sources to the article. Most of the sources, previously used were misquoted, as can be easily seen by thorough review of Google Books references. So I did correct them providing exact URLs of quoted pages and added even more references as can be seen in summary diff of my edits.

    The editors disputing my edits or filing this case have not contributed any reference to this article, neither sufficiently participated in Talk:Maraghar Massacre page, providing any reference whatsoever. Reverting User:Takabeg and User:Kansas Bear also did not provide sufficient comments on their edits on the talk page. The former left no comments actually, while the latter kept airing his opinion of me rather than article subject. I welcome the reviewers to look into the talk page to see all the facts.

    I would like to still thank User:Kansas Bear for his warning on my talk page. However, I am not sure if Arbitration enforcement request was appropriate immediately after warning me and without further post-warning incidence. This request made by him actually defeats the purpose of his warning.

    Thank you for your consideration. Atabəy (talk) 02:27, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

    And User:Kansas Bear is in the list of editors warned about possible sanctions in A-A2 case. Thus, I wonder what is his authority to consider his warnings as an important milestone for restricting other users opposing his POV on A-A articles.
    Just to refresh, User:Kansas Bear joined edit warring along with User:MarshallBagramyan and User:Takabeg at Maraghar Massacre article here inserting the same reference and removing notability tag without any sufficient discussion or consensus. His edit comment asserts that using "alleged" (based actually on Human Rights Watch reference) is "weasel wording".
    Yet in another example of Kansas Bear's editing, pushing anti-Azerbaijani denial of identity POV, he inserts the following WP:OR: "it is relatively certain and accepted by most scholars" made out of mixture of WP:WEASEL words.
    Actually, user's disruptive tag removal, inconsistent and frivolous reporting activity clearly points to being an active participant of A-A2 case, warranting the application of same restrictions as everybody else there. Atabəy (talk) 23:20, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
    Editing warring is adding a reference and removing what I saw as weasel wording? This does not help your case when you blind revert twice!
    Yes my name is on the AA2 board, here is the reason why. Abbatai removed referenced information, I restored it. I'll take an opinion from your friend Tuscumbia and view your actions as condoning Abbatai's actions. I will be sure from now on NOT to revert any vandalism or racial slanders against Turks done by this editor. Don't you feel like you have accomplished something? --Kansas Bear (talk) 00:27, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
    FYI, dubious not "dubioius". Fixed. --Kansas Bear (talk) 00:32, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

    Again, what does all your reverting of vandalism have to do with this WP:AE case? The fact is that you are on a list of editors warned about possible sanctions in A-A2 case, and you continue to engage in revert war, push POV and target other users in the case. Atabəy (talk) 02:07, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

    You were the one that initiated this attack on my edits, as some sort of excuse for your violation of 1RR.
    The fact that I am listed has also been addressed and summarily ignored by you.
    The reason, which was the restoration of references and referenced information, also has been ignored by you.
    Therefore, instead of removing insults on Turkish pages, I'll be sure to ignore those insults just as you have ignored the facts I have posted here. --Kansas Bear (talk) 02:33, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
    If you find "attack content" in any of my editing, why don't you file another report proving that. Yes, I did remove the reference and restored the fact tag, but first that is relevant to talk page, where you are not, and secondly, the reference is referencing another reference. You are not using the source but reinterpretation. I am sorry, I don't find any "attack content" or WP:BATTLE in what I just said, neither do I find any good faith in any part of your reporting. Atabəy (talk) 16:24, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

    To administrators: Practically every user in this thread was involved in WP:ARBAA2, and that includes MarshallBagramyan (talk · contribs) (participant) and Kansas Bear (talk · contribs) specifically. To better understand the depth of the issue behind this reporting review this discussion at DRV and review Talk:Maraghar Massacre. I don't believe my contribution to articles warrants discretionary sanctions under WP:AE, and, reviewing the latter talk page carefully, it is obvious that reporting users are only trying to push POV on the mentioned article by eliminating other contributors through AE instead of contributing to the mentioned article.Atabəy (talk) 16:18, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

    To administrators: Please, also note that in both edits and that User:Kansas Bear listed as diffs of my "revert violation", I was actually restoring the notability tag which both User:Kansas Bear and User:Takabeg removed in concert without any detailed reasoning on Talk:Maraghar Massacre. Their actions on the page, and subsequent reporting here, were disruptive per Misplaced Pages:Tagging_pages_for_problems#Removing_tags which says:
    • Adding and removing tags without discussion is not helpful, and can be seen as disruptive. Where there is disagreement, both sides should attempt to discuss the situation.
    There is nothing they discussed on talk page, instead focusing on AE. Thanks. Atabəy (talk) 20:08, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

    Comments by others about the request concerning User:Atabəy

    In addition to Kansas Bear's complaint, I would like to bring to the attention of the administrators that Atabey's overall activities over the past few days have been a major cause for concern. I will try to provide the background in as concise a way as possible: last week, an administrator named Buckshot08 took the decision to delete three controversial articles relating to this conflict region (Nagorno-Karabakh), which, in his opinion, were too poorly sourced and of otherwise dubious quality.

    In probable retaliation to his decision, Atabey and another editor, Tuscumbia, struck at the article in question as well as on the Kirovabad Pogrom page, adding the same three tags (neutrality, unreliable source, notability) and using the same exact arguments which were used against the aforementioned articles prior to their deletion by Buckshot. I believe that Atabey's as well as Tuscumbia's actions are, therefore, clear-cut violations of WP:POINT, i.e., they are being carried out in retaliation to Buckshot08's decisions. They have been editing tendentiously and Atabey himself has implicitly admitted that they are being done in reaction to Buckshot08's actions. These problems have been highlighted and are elaborated more fully on the article's talk page here.

    It should be noted that Atabey has been permabanned from several articles in the same area for some time now for virtually the same reasons.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 19:07, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

    I'm an admin, but am not familiar with how the A-A editing restrictions have been applied historically, so will sit this one out. However, from looking at Atabəy's recent contributions I think that sanctions would be fully justified. He or she is plainly edit warring in sensitive topics covered by ArbCom discretionary sanctions and their allegations about Buckshot06 (talk · contribs)'s actions being anything but those of an uninvolved admin are totally unjustified. Nick-D (talk) 03:51, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

    I suggest to look into WP:DRV discussion here, where the general conclusion is that three articles were removed by admin User:Buckshot06 without following proper deletion procedure. All I was trying to do is to restore encyclopedia articles which were targeted for removal by User:MarshallBagramyan. If you think my concern, found to be a legitimate at both DRV and ANI, is worth sanctions based on reporting and commentaries of contributors who got Buckshot06 into this in first place, that is your decision to make, of course. But frankly that would be very unfair. User:MarshallBagramyan clearly misled Buckshot06 to hastily remove 3 massacre articles as he wished, did not contribute a single source or reference to any article discussed, but just reverted them as did User:Kansas Bear, and now they have a free pass to get me into restriction for trying to actually contribute and improve all mentioned articles, including the ones I tagged for notability?
    I do have doubts that uninvolved admin would revert my edit like this without any single comment on the talk page regarding the subject of revert. But assuming good faith, I fully understand Buckshot06's reaction, he was misled and got into criticism he did not deserve, and we all got overly sensitive about this issue. Atabəy (talk) 10:47, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
    • But frankly that would be very unfair. User:MarshallBagramyan clearly misled Buckshot06 to hastily remove 3 massacre articles as he wished, did not contribute a single source or reference to any article discussed, but just reverted them as did User:Kansas Bear... -- Atabey.
    I have never edited Malibeyli and Gushchular Massacre, Garadaghly Massacre or Agdaban massacre. More false statements. --Kansas Bear (talk) 22:06, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
    I agree with Atabəy. This is not first time Kansas Bear sympathies to Armenian side without being neutral and constructive, he is just obsessed with Nagorno-Karabakh articles and therefore should be topic banned for being one sided and not constructive.--NovaSkola (talk) 11:28, 25 December 2010 (UTC)
    NovaSkola's animosity originates here and here, where he believes he has the god-given right to remove referenced information.
    As seen here, NovaSkola's abuse of Twinkle resulted in him losing the use of that program. His attempt to regain Twinkle resulted in his threat of, "...armenian articles as for this will suffer a lot :). Enjoy your day and clean our mess." Typical battleground mentality. NovaSkola's advice for topic ban should be applied to him and his disruptive editing. --Kansas Bear (talk) 21:59, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

    As long as I know, in Turkish Misplaced Pages, Atabəy is known as a notorious propagandist with his POV of the Azerbaijani state nationalism. In Turkish Misplaced Pages we decided to delete these articles about unnotable massacres. In English Misplaced Pages he repeated same propaganda. Takabeg (talk) 12:38, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

    His attack against the article well-known Kirovabad pogrom have shown his strong Anti-Armenianism sentiments. Takabeg (talk) 12:42, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

    User:Takabeg is complaining about my notability tagging (and his tag reverting) of an article Kirovabad Pogrom devoted to so called "pogrom" (riots/massacre) in which, according to all listed sources, there was not a single civilian casualty... I rest my case. Atabəy (talk) 23:04, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
    This is an inadequate report for an inadequate motion. Why is the User:Atabəy being reported for doing something that is right in Misplaced Pages? He had filed Misplaced Pages:Deletion review/Log/2010 December 24 to restore the articles incorrectly deleted by an administrator and made edits to Maraghar Massacre article based on available sources. Isn't it too obvious why users Kansas Bear and MarshallBagramyan are pretty active here trying to get User Atabəy banned simply to retaliate since one of the articles was already restored? Tuscumbia (talk) 15:25, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
    Tuscumbia, show me exactly where I've asked for Atabey to be banned. Along with making drama, you have to resort to false statements. IF rules do not apply to Atabey and his "friends" then they do not apply to anyone then. --Kansas Bear (talk) 21:59, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
    You don't have to ask for it. Your actions clearly show your intent. Coming onto user Atabey right after him getting the Agdaban massacre article restored is a clear sign for everyone. The user has done nothing wrong at all. He discussed the article on its talk page, inquired about the improper deletion of the article by an administrator, made good faith edits on Maraghar Massacre article while also discussing them on the talk page and is immediately reported by you. Tuscumbia (talk) 22:10, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
    Note User:Takabeg's statement above:
    • "In Turkish Misplaced Pages we decided to delete these articles about unnotable massacres".
    I wonder what he means by "we"? It is clear that the editor is talking about his participation in coordinated editing in Misplaced Pages to push a certain POV. But aside from that, the sentence above clarifies what User:Takabeg is trying to accomplish in English Misplaced Pages. And I think should be noteworthy for administrators handling A-A case, as User:Takabeg is another potential addition to the list of involved users. Atabəy (talk) 18:47, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
    More false statements.
    Here is when he was warned,18:58, 21 December 2010
    Here is when Atabey violated 1RR, 02:29, 23 December 2010
    Here is when he gets reported, 18:25, 23 December 2010
    So when all the emotional drama is cleared away, the facts remain. He was warned on the 21st, he violated 1RR on the 23rd, 15 hours later he was reported. Just because you believe something does not make it a fact.
    He violated 1RR, unless you are telling me such restrictions do not apply to certain editors. --Kansas Bear (talk) 22:26, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

    Among the most serious violations Atabey has committed has been his retaliation against an administrator's actions on other articles related to this area, most notably on the Maraghar Massacre and Kirovabad Pogrom articles. His edits on the former have not only exceeded the bounds of nPOV but have been written in so mendacious a manner as to skew the actual reality of the event (all of which is given in full detail on the article's talk page here). And for the record, Atabey's blatant flouting of the most basic Misplaced Pages rules as civility, battlefield mentality, ethnic battleground, etc. has been abundantly made clear on his talk page, here, here, here, and here.

    Regarding NovaSkola, it's quite possible that he may be a sock of User:Neftchi.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 23:33, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

    User:MarshallBagramyan's moving around of editor comments on this board and selective references comments on unrelated cases from 2-3 years back (2007-2008) clearly points to intimidating intention - get a certain user (in this case me) restricted at any cost. I think checking Talk:Maraghar Massacre article is sufficient to see that User:Kansas Bear, User:Takabeg or User:MarshallBagramyan commented more complaining about my edits on Maraghar Massacre article here on AE than they actually contributed on the talk page of the article itself. Atabəy (talk) 23:53, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
    Come on Marshall, this is getting really desperate :) You're pulling up something that dates back to early ages of Misplaced Pages, for which the user has already been warned and banned in the past. There are a number of records showing your Wiki behavior and bans too. Do you think they should be mentioned here as well? Tuscumbia (talk) 13:58, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

    Unfortunately, the same circumstances which led to Atabey's restrictions and topic bans from the above-mentioned articles seem to be in play here as well. After all these years, he still demonstrates a battlefield mentality toward his peers on Misplaced Pages and his most recent contribution on the Maraga Massacre are chock full of unhelpful, sarcastic comments and clearly retributive edits. That he has essentially admitted to carrying out WP:POINT attacks on at least the Maraga and Kirovabad Pogrom articles, has distorted the evidence on hand and gone out of his way to minimize intentionally the severity of those two events, speaks volumes. There's no reason why we should not give an editor a second, third, fourth or fifth chance but when an editor consistently displays so caustic, combative and vindictive an attitude which other uninvolved editors also find objection to, I don't know what other conclusion one can come to.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 18:23, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

    Result concerning User:Atabəy

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

    Could we be clearer on which specific ArbCom remedy is being violated here? There's no notification of any restriction applying to that article on its talk page or editnotice and the respondent is mentioned in the A-A case only once as having been banned from another article. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 20:38, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

    The whole area is under WP:ARBAA2 discretionary sanctions; this user has an extensive prior history under the username of Atabek (talk · contribs), and was a participant in both WP:ARBAA2 and WP:ARBAA; no additional notification is needed. T. Canens (talk) 15:13, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
    • I've restored this enforcement request from the archive, since it appears that admins did not close it. Can anyone say whether Atabəy/Atabek was still under a 1RR/week restriction at the time these two reverts occurred (about a week ago)? I see that he was originally restricted for one year under WP:ARBAA back in April 2007, but that has expired. Even if WP:ARBAA2 (August 2007) caused the clock to be restarted, which I cannot determine, we are beyond one year on that one as well. Looking for previous AE actions about Atabek, I don't see anything in the log that shows that his general 1RR restriction was renewed. EdJohnston (talk) 00:17, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
    • WP:RESTRICT seems to have some wrong entries for people sanctioned in WP:ARBAA. Some editors are listed as having indefinite restrictions, while we know they expired after one year. EdJohnston (talk) 18:47, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
    • I recommend that this enforcement request be closed with no action. Atabek/Atabəy is *not* under a 1RR/week restriction so far as I can determine. So the remaining question here is whether the data offered in this report are enough to show tendentious editing on AA topics. I do not see such editing at Maraghar Massacre or Kirovabad pogrom which are those mentioned by Kansas Bear in the above complaint. One option that we might consider in the future is to place all of the massacre articles that are mentioned in this report under a 1RR/day restriction. In my opinion, any admin should go ahead and do that if he perceives continued warring there. The massacre articles seem quiet at the moment so there is no urgency at this time. (At least, they are being reverted so slowly that a 1RR/day would not make much difference). For future reference, here are the massacre articles mentioned in the DRV:
    For tracking of the problem note also the two articles mentioned by Kansas Bear above:
    One of the issues making these articles hard to get right is that often there was no on-site reporting by reliable news organizations, so it is a matter of weighing the testimony of survivors to figure out what really happened. It is understandable that survivors who have lost their relatives may not be neutral. (In at least one case, data on the massacre was collected by an NGO group sympathetic to one of the two sides). Anyone who doubts the veracity of one of the massacre articles can open an AfD. I will go ahead and remove the wrong entries raise the question elsewhere on whether certain entries should be removed from WP:RESTRICT about revert limits after discussing with one of the clerks. Time to close this request, I think. EdJohnston (talk) 23:24, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

    1RR violation and request to ban and restore

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
    Becritical made only one revert on the Israel Shamir article. He did not violate the 1RR restriction. EdJohnston (talk) 00:03, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

    In the article on Israel Shamir which is under active arbitration, Becritical made seven reverts, though only one a day is allowed. Please ban him and restore the text! 05:41, 2 January 2011 Becritical (talk | contribs) (12,878 bytes) (Reverted 7 edits by Kingfisher12 (talk). (TW)) (undo) Kingfisher12 (talk) 06:54, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

    There's only one revert (e.g. this one). Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 06:59, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Abd

    Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

    Request concerning Abd

    User requesting enforcement
    TenOfAllTrades(talk) 01:16, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    Abd (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
    Sanction or remedy that this user violated
    Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Abd-William M. Connolley#Motions:
    " shall not interact with each other, nor comment in any way (directly or indirectly) about each other, on any page in Misplaced Pages. Should either editor do so, he may be blocked by any administrator for a short time, up to one week."
    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
    1. Abd is under an interaction ban with William M. Connolley (abbreviated WMC herein); the deletion discussion where Abd commented involves page content almost entirely created by WMC and originally hosted in WMC's userspace.
    Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
    Not applicable.
    Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)
    Extended block, at the discretion of blocking admin(s).
    Additional comments by editor filing complaint
    So, why block Abd for his comments about deleting a page in BozMo's userspace, under the provisions of an interaction ban with WMC?
    A bit of context. WMC originally created and maintained User:William M. Connolley/For me/Things people say which recorded diffs of comments made by a number of other editors. The page was recently deleted, persuant to Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/User:William M. Connolley/For me/Things people say.
    Shortly after WMC's page was deleted, Count Iblis observed that the content remained fully available on an external mirror site and noted this in a commment to WMC's talk: . A few hours later, BozMo re-created WMC's page at User:BozMo/difflog, copying the content from the external mirror. He notified WMC of the new page's existence on WMC's talk page: . This new copy of WMC's page was almost immediately nominated for deletion: Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/User:BozMo/difflog.
    The violation diff above involves Abd's comment in the second MfD. I cannot think of any plausible explanation for his appearance in that particular discussion other than that he has been watching WMC's talk page (or keeping an eye out for his name in off-wiki venues) and thought that he saw a big enough loophole to wedge a WMC-related comment through. In addition to the interaction ban imposed by motion (linked above), Abd is extensively restricted from inserting himself as a third party into disputes involving other editors. Unfortunately, it seems that Abd has started to edit Misplaced Pages this year solely to peripherally attach himself to a dispute involving an old enemy.
    Regarding choice of block length, Abd has been semi-retired for some time. He has made only a dozen edits since the end of October, and it's been nearly three weeks since his last edit. The (maximum) one-week block prescribed by the remedy was implemented at a time when Abd was a very prolific editor. These days, it seems entirely possible that Abd wouldn't even be aware of a one-week block until after its expiry; the act would be primarily symbolic rather than practical. Abd has received three week-long blocks and a one-year topic ban (imposed in October, shortly before the decline in his activity) under this case's provisions already Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Abd-William M. Connolley#Log of blocks, bans, and restrictions, to limited effect. It may be appropriate to apply a significantly longer block in this circumstance, as I am sure that it was not the intent of ArbCom – nor is it to the benefit of the project – for Abd to be permitted and encouraged to make intermittent visits to violate his editing restrictions from the comfort of retirement. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 01:16, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
    @Abd - The interaction ban is deliberately worded very broadly, precisely because of your tendency to be extremely lawyerly. The wording (my emphasis added) "shall not...comment in any way (directly or indirectly) about each other" reasonably includes your commenting on personal notes he was keeping for his own purposes in his own userspace. The fact that those notes were copied to another editor's userspace does not suddenly make them non-WMC writing.
    I would be intrigued if you could share with us how it is you came across the deletion discussion, if not (as my "bizarre theory" asserts) through your ongoing monitoring of WMC's talk page. A pattern of conduct exists. You are not a regular participant in MfD; in fact, you've participated in precisely two MfDs in the last year: this one, involving WMC, and this one from November 2010, which involved a whole host of editors you've fought with (against and alongside) related to the climate change dispute. The last MfD you participated in before that – and the only other MfD in your last 500 Misplaced Pages namespace edits – was all the way back in September 2009, when once again you were commenting on the deletion of one of WMC's subpages.
    As for the length of the block, the purpose is not to punish, except with the aim of discouraging your further interest in following WMC's activities. If your response here reflected any remorse (or understanding) that you were testing the bounds of one your many bans yet again, or perhaps an indication that you would undertake to avoid such testing in the future, then a short block (or even no block) might be appropriate. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 04:23, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

    Discussion concerning Abd

    Statement by Abd

    I've ruined way too much time by noticing this AE request and responding, and, as usual, I've written too much. But I'll collapse it and summarize the most important points.

    full response

    Eh? I'm very aware of the interaction ban, have respected it, and cannot see how this violates it. The only disruption coming from this would be the filing of this AE request, and, I suggest, I did not anticipate this and should not be held responsible for TenOfAllTrade's obsession and his bizarre theory regarding why I !voted. There was nothing remotely hostile toward the other fellow in that !vote, and my comments were about what I see as unnecessary deletion (I've opposed many similar deletions in the past). BozMo is responsible for the page under MfD, not the other fellow. I had included a comment that if the original author wanted the page deleted, I'd change my !vote, but decided that this could be an "interaction" of some kind, so I left it out. I hope I can be forgiven for adding that comment here! TOAT was one who, previously, fanned the flames in this area, when asked by me to try to help calm the waters, and, ultimately, some attention might well be paid to this, but it's not a task for me, I have far better things to do than to worry about this pond and the croaking of one frog. --Abd (talk) 03:23, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

    Reviewing the comment I made, nothing there refers to the other subject of the interaction ban. Which is what the ban prohibits, not some other kind of "involvement." "Silly drama" was a reference to the fuss over this new page. To defend myself here, I must make some indirect references to that person, but I feel no animosity toward him, intend no harm, and am not and was not criticizing him or interacting with him. The !vote was not prohibited by the ban as worded, and definitely was not prohibited by the intention of the ban. Anyone ever think of looking at the intention of a ban?

    I'm struck, though, how my relative inactivity is used as a reason for an amplified sanction, presumably so I'll "feel" it, which betrays an intention to hurt or punish, not surprising for TOAT. I have not appealed short blocks because I don't want to waste the time of Misplaced Pages admins reviewing them, but a long block, I might indeed take to ArbComm, since one sanction after another has been imposed improperly, and, most recently, a pattern of topic banning all knowledgeable editors (not just me) who show up on my Favorite Topic resulted in my renewed topic ban here, even though I was following guidelines for COI editors, rigorously, and specifically for filing a successful delisting request for a blacklisted web site on meta, thus finishing the task I'd begun with RfAr/Abd and JzG. Allegedly it was too wordy. There is no end of novel theories on which to base blocks and bans. --Abd (talk) 03:45, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

    It's simple. To harass an editor who is under a ArbComm ban, watch his every action and find something that might resemble the ban in some way that can be asserted, even if he might not anticipate that, even if the action isn't actually prohibited, even if it was not, itself, offensive in any way. Then file an AE request that he's violated the ban, and if he claims he didn't, accuse him of "wikilawyering" and "testing the limits." It's pure ABF, and it's done because it often works, and I've never seen anyone sanctioned for doing it.

    Never mind that the whole purpose of bans is to be clear, to simplify things. Look at this AE. It mentions He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Mentioned numerous times, creating comments tempting me to respond, such as that of SBHB. I'm not going to. That person is not the problem here. Period. Nor was that person the problem at the MfD, at all. The problem is abusive and/or obtuse admins, impossibly complex and quirky process to address admin abuse or error, inadequate intermediate and functional process to guide and support editors and administrators, shooting the messenger, factionalism, petty wikipolitics and payback, overcontrol, juvenile personal vendettas, and I want nothing to do with it. It's only an encyclopedia! My interests are academic, scientific, and far more universal. I don't blame That Person for my sanctions, he didn't create them! I rarely edit any more because I lost patience with trying to build content here and to resolve issues, with great effort, just to see it slide back, I've concluded Misplaced Pages is impossible. Good luck. --Abd (talk) 06:33, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

    @Enric Naval: isn't cherry-picking fun? He may, however, vote or comment at polls. The MYOB ban was a beaut: ArbComm, don't do this to anyone else, okay? Previous AEs have hinged on whether or not a list of comments supporting or opposing a ban at AN was a "poll," and bolded supports and opposes by other editors were refactored with a claim that "we don't vote," and I was then dinged for having not-voted in it, while being accused of wikilawyering for claiming it was permitted. I kid you not, but ArbComm clearly intended me to be able to "vote or comment" at XfDs, and I have when I noticed them and had something brief to say.

    @the people who, with apparent reason, suggest I should be more careful. Sure. I stopped editing just for that reason. But I do occasionally look at my watchlist, and I'd like to suggest that if a situation has arisen where the police are called because a fellow allegedly jaywalks, and an angry mob gathers, and a police riot ensues, and this happens over and over, maybe there is a deeper problem than a careless jaywalker on an empty street, doing no harm. He should be more careful? Sure. He should avoid the neighborhood! And that's what I've been doing.

    One week ban? All this discussion over something with so little meaning or consequence, already recognized as such by the one filing it? What's the purpose here? Enforcement for the sake of enforcement? What every happened to WP:IAR? IAR should govern what we don't do as well as what we do. "If a rule is violated, but it does no harm, ignore it."

    The purpose of the interaction ban was to avoid discussions exactly like this, it was believed that the two of us were causing disruption by continued conflict, but, in fact, the real conflict was much deeper than something personal between the fellow and I, and ArbComm wasn't ready to address it, too many editors were involved.

    ArbComm, and many admins, tend strongly to assume that if a mob is yelling at someone, he did something wrong, guilty until proven innocent, while, at the same time, "methinks the man doth protest too much." And then, when it occurs that the identification of cause is in error, and the target of the mob isn't properly contrite, he "thinks he's always right," and "isn't listening." I've seen this happen with so many, I used to try to intervene, often successfully, but the MYOB ban prohibited that. Ever wonder why this ban was imposed? There was no evidence presented for it.There was a screaming mob, obviously I must have been doing something wrong! The ban was a last-minute do-something attempt to resolve issues that really had almost nothing to do with me, and, as could have been predicted, it ended up before ArbComm later, in a huge mess, and the community is still bouncing.

    Enforcement of a ban like this should keep the purpose in mind! "Wikilawyering" means ignoring the purpose of a rule while insisting on a sort of strict (literal or twisted) interpretation of it. AE is broken; just as filing an RfAr can cause examination of the filer, AE filings should be watched for abuse as tools to harass, and abusers warned, and sanctioned if necessary. I'd be very careful about anyone who seeks the block or ban of another. Very often that person is more of a problem than their target. And if the person is an admin? --Abd (talk) 16:17, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

    • My comment was not about Him. It was about a page created by BozMo, and that this page was based partly on a page earlier created by Him was not relevant to my reasons for commenting. My comment was policy-based. How I noticed the MfD is moot, but I've not been seeking to "interact" contrary to the ban, and have avoided far more than the ban prohibits, and not just with Him.
    • My MYOB ban, raised by Enric Naval, and asserted by selective quotation, explicitly allows voting or commenting in polls. Enric Naval should be warned about creating disruption by misrepresenting the ban. Selective quotation of sources, pushing a POV, is, in fact, part of his documented MO, it has broad effect.
    • The purpose of the ban was to avoid discussions like this. That purpose is frustrated because there are editors motivated to create disruption over my actions, even when they are harmless in themselves. As noted by the filer, the maximum sanction allowed under the ban is moot; therefore the filing is moot, unnecessary disruption. Were the cause of filing more clear, no filing would be necessary. Blocking is already authorized for a neutral administrator. Only someone involved would need to file AE, and he's obviously involved and is maintaining disruption, and should be warned.
    • I could only avoid such disruption by completely avoiding Misplaced Pages. I'm almost there, for exactly this reason, and because getting anything done, of importance to me, on Misplaced Pages, is Entirely Too Much Work, and creates nothing of permanence. I'm going to die, and I need to put my limited time into what will endure. Many long-term editors have come to similar conclusions, and are disappearing, retiring, and, occasionally, being banned because they speak up about abuse. Or, sometimes, out of their own impatience, they become abusers, creating massive disruption, more retirements, etc.
    • This AE filing demonstrates a large piece of the Problem, as do many other events ongoing, for those with Eyes. Hint: I'm not the problem, I'm a symptom. On the article covering my Favorite Topic, I'm still being blamed for problems well over a year after I edited it outside of COI restrictions. I understand the issues, and I understand process, as have others, but Misplaced Pages is not asking for our help, most of the people who understood the situation and who would have assisted have left. While there are some new Arbitrators with heads on their shoulders, we've been there before. ArbComm burns them out. --Abd (talk) 16:17, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
    • My MfD history is asserted, as if it proved something relevant.
    XfD history for Abd
    • 17:57, 4 January 2011. Deletion discussion for BozMo's page, modified to reflect concerns of original MfD on His page. No mention, by me, of Him. Arguments presented did not relate to Him or His actions. Voted Keep, page withdrawn by creator, who appears a bit disgusted by the process. My concern is almost always process, and that's why I !voted.
    • 19:54, 8 November 2010 MfD filed by the User:ScienceApologist, name since changed to his real name. Nominator previously topic banned from all fringe science articles, and site banned for a time. Basic issues involved, and, I expect, there will be future process over this, the issues are very much alive. My !vote was Keep, matching community snow. Notice tendentious argument from nominator. The community strains at a gnat and swallows flies.
    • 18:08, 13 September 2009 Note that He also !voted (and this was his page, and we both voted Keep, with the community. This was long before the interaction ban.)

    Yes. All three MfDs involve, in some way, someone with whom I had some prior conflict. However, only one MfD could reasonably be considered a part or extension of the conflict, the one with ScienceApologist, and this did not violate any ban or sanction, and, even then, did not attack SA. It was supporting the essay, as did the community.

    Also relevant (the same issues would apply) would be Articles for deletion, so:

    • 13:23, 7 October 2010. Speedy Keep, with community. Completely unrelated to prior conflict.
    • 13:56, 10 June 2010 voted Keep, with the community. My comment was cited by the closing admin. Yes, I voted differently from Him, but my !vote had nothing to do with Him.
    • 21:54, 27 February 2010 last of a series of AfD and article and guideline edits. I was opposing what I saw as a mindless interpretation of notability guidelines, was successful with Keep on almost all AfDs, with very little exception. The issue was exactly the same with each AfD, and that the result varied (a little) is an example of WP process failure. I tried to make the guideline more clear, to match actual community consensus, so that there would not continue to be useless disruptive AfDs, with no effect. No relation to prior conflict.
    • (Many other national radio society AfDs omitted)
    • 16:54, 25 February 2010 series of comments. Keep, with consensus. My !vote cited in another Keep. No relation to prior conflict.
    • 19:34, 24 February 2010 Keep. result No Consensus. Not related to prior conflict. However, article is now up for AfD a third time. As usual with marginal articles, early !vote favor Delete. Eventually, the deletionists hit a spot where those who might support the article don't show up. There are possible process fixes, but .... I'm voting Keep now, but without further research, it just takes too much effort to roll the boulder back up the hill once again, for too little positive benefit.
    • 21:49, 20 February 2010 Delete. Related to climate change conflict, probably saw it for that reason. Provided some evidence that might have supported the Delete conclusion. Probably would agree with the editors involved in prior conflict, but I don't recognize any names in the discussion.
    • 21:34, 18 February 2010 Keep, with community. No relation to prior conflict.
    • 20:52, 13 February 2010 Keep, with community. No relation to prior conflict.

    That's as far back as I have time for. While the MfD sample is much smaller, which reflects how many MfDs there are compared to AfDs, MfDs may have more likelihood of some connection with prior conflict because they are often about what's in user space, and such pages frequently involve existing conflicts of some kind. But there is no support for the suggestion of disruptive participation, in any of these, and, almost always, the consensus follows my !vote. Frequently much research is behind my comments, which may be why they are sometimes cited in conclusions or other !votes. --Abd (talk) 17:58, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

    Hmmph! Enric Naval has now pointed to the next Afd that would have been in this list. Interesting example. Yes, it was cited at AE, as he points out, as I recall, but I can't find the place, his citations don't seem to cover it. He points to his own very confused and elaborate AE request. However, the MYOB ban clearly allows such !voting; and interpretations, made then and now, that "intervening in conflict" included voting or commenting in polls, were in blatant disregard of the full text of the ban, and wasn't ever supported, and the clarification issued, which Enric cites, did not relate to such poll comments, but was about article editing (a strange interpretation, by the way, turning an MYOB ban into some kind of general "don't participate in discussions over article content or actual article editing, and don't attempt to help out at the spam whitelist, to help deal non-disruptively with backlog" ban. This AfD was a train wreck, and a strange pattern of !votes was apparent. Immediately after I voted, a whole series of contrary !votes immediately appeared from people with whom I did, indeed, have prior conflict. Maybe it was a coincidence. --Abd (talk) 18:29, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

    • Conclusion: no significant connection of XfD voting patterns with prior conflict. No disruptive participation or tendentious argument in any XfDs. Apparent positive value of contributions. --Abd (talk) 17:58, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
    • Process note: It is very clear from neutral comments that the edit did not clearly violate the ban. Some think that it was marginal. Some are certain that it was a violation and they would block. However, if a violation is not clear, and the differences of opinion cited prove that it is, at least to some, unclear, it should result in a warning that makes it clear, not a block. Only if there is a continual pushing of edges would the warning step be bypassed. In fact, what's been happening for a long time here is that edges are being pushed, all right, in the direction of expanding and extending bans, on whatever excuse can be found. I did not ask for an interaction ban, nor did the Other Fellow. It was done in an attempt to stop perceived disruption, which was -- prematurely and inaccurately, my opinion -- blamed on the two who were thought to be, possibly, the source. That was an error, but both He and I have apparently respected the ban, this is the first AE request regarding it, AFAIK. Yet this is asserted in the filing as if it were some sort of long-continued problem, mixing it up, in the case of Enric's claims, with the very vague and difficult-to-interpret MYOB ban. If the MYOB ban prohibited XfD votes ("dispute!"), well, there were a huge pile of them, with no complaint after that AfD that Enric cites, AFAIK.
    • It's being suggested that I agree to "promise not to comment again on anything remotely related to ." Misplaced Pages is remotely related to Him, and, in addition, I'm violating a strict reading commenting here. There is no history of any asserted violation of this interaction ban, and no warnings, AFAIK, so there is no evidence for "pushing of the edges." As has been pointed out, this super-strict reading of the ban requires me to anticipate the reactions of obsessive editors, very creative in wikilawyering ban language and interpretation, in ways utterly in contrast to apparent intentions, apparently to push results that they ardently desire, enough to go to the trouble of a filing here. The strict reading turns what was a simple purpose into a ban against editing any page on Misplaced Pages where the fellow had some input or someone might think it connected in some undefined way.
    • But would I now repeat my !vote? No, of course not. I would not deliberately trigger this disruption. But does that mean I'm required to anticipate the thinking of every member of this crowd? No, I'm required to respect ArbComm bans, and I did. We did. The purpose of the ban, and the letter of it, have been respected. Now comes TOAT who isn't satisfied. And that's important to notice. And Enric Naval, who has a huge axe to grind, since before I ever encountered him, he's behind a series of bans that have warped Misplaced Pages consensus, and, apparently, I'm being forced to take this back to ArbComm for enforcement of prior decisions. Forced, I'm quite reluctant.
    • And we also see, here, SBHB, who uses the occasion to grind a different axe, harmless, though quite incorrect. Doc James is a wikifriend, whom I thank, he's one of the few left. Brenneman I don't recall, nor Vecrumba. Thanks! T. Canens I don't know, but I'd call him clueless, and that admins will issue opinions without adequate understanding of the underlying situation and its relationship to overall policy and effects is part of the Problem. Elonka has had a long relationship with me, complex. I supported her -- strongly -- in her RfC, but opposed her excessive AE against PHG, which was similar in that it was wikilawyered to extend it, distorting the original ArbComm intention. So maybe there is some pattern there, I don't know. Elonka is often a Good Guy, so to speak, has been willing to act in difficult situations.
    • And not to leave anyone out, BorisG makes a classic quick response, which is, for such, quite correct. If there is a violation here, it is marginal, and therefore should result in a warning at most. Such a warning, in a case like this, should precede AE enforcement requests, which are far more disruptive. With a warning, I'd have responded directly, eventually. AE might or might not have been seen as necessary, and only if there were some repeat violation, very unlikely. Good process conserves community time and effort. Only if the violation is so clear that the user should have known, already, that it was a violation, would skipping warning be in order. BorisG is merely asserting standard practice, and I only disagree in the assessment of the edit as a ban violation, and, I'm confident, that, if he'd warned me, we'd have worked it out with an agreement. I've agreed with far worse than that!
    • But BorisG wouldn't have warned me, unless someone asked him to, maybe, because the action itself was non-disruptive, and didn't -- at all -- violate the intention of the ban. It caused no disruption, no complaint from the Other Party, just from two with some very personal history with me, looking for payback, which is easy to establish. TOAT would have been free to warn me, though, even if not neutral. If I disagreed, I'd have asked for a neutral party to mediate. Anyone ever hear of dispute resolution? And, no, AN and AN/I or AE are not the early parts of DR. Getting a neutral third opinion is.
    • Who teaches admins how to follow process like this? To use their tools and authority to promote agreement rather than to favor one side or another, to punish rather than guide? How are sound administrative practices established and maintained? By allowing a situation to fester for years until there is a Monster ArbComm case? Which then results in minor sanctions, which are, half the time, ignored with little or no consequence? With massive accumulated damage, loss and burnout of expert editors and others, in the meantime? There are answers to these questions, but Who Cares? I did, at one time. --Abd (talk) 19:39, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
    • @Mkativerata. Thanks. interactions bans have a clear purpose: to prevent a poisonous relationship between two editors from deleteriously affecting the project What "poisonous relationship" manifested in the !vote? If anything, I'd would be seen as supporting The Other Editor's material. How would that edit, aside from this AE request, have "deleteriously affected the project?" Did you read the MfD history? You'll note that I previously, before the interaction ban, directly supported keeping one of his pages. Was that manifesting a "poisonous relationship"? (No. Not then and not here.) Here is what I see as the flaw in your argument. The purpose of the ban is as you say. To pursue that purpose, "interactions" are prohibited, because it is thought that they will probably be "poisonous." A comment like mine might can be seen as an "interaction," in that there is some indirect connection, i.e., the editor was involved with the content, originally, though he was not a party in the MfD, and the full content, which included edit summaries, which had been considered objectionable, wasn't actually replicated. However, my !vote was not a manifestation of a "poisonous relationship." It is purely a violation of a hedge around a hedge around the law, with no substance relating to the original purpose. If I had !voted Delete, making arguments about how scurrilous the original author was to do this or that -- presume nothing from this about what I think about him and his work! -- it would have been a violation. Please reconsider! --Abd (talk) 19:53, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

    Comments by others about the request concerning Abd

    Comment by BorisG

    Borderline. A warning is called for. - BorisG (talk) 02:41, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

    Comment by Vecrumba

    Opening interaction bans to be interpreted anything other than direct interaction is opening a can of worms. How do you decide how many degrees of separation still constitute "violating" an interaction ban? An interaction ban does not mean an editor cannot comment on content where the other editor is involved. Once something is created, there is no "ownership." That the content in this case is not in the user space of the editor with whom interaction is prohibited rather renders this a non-starter. That a process mentions an editor which whom interaction is banned does not render commenting there (and a comment not referencing said editor) an interaction within the scope of the interaction ban. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 02:52, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

    @Enric Naval: Forgive me if I misinterpret, but I hope you are not suggesting that the "indirect" part of "interaction ban" means that once editor "A" creates a bit of content, editor "B" can never comment on that content again, regardless of what space it inhabits. I'm sorry, but "interaction" means "direct" = contact an editor and "indirect" = discuss an editor. It is not an invitation to extend the boundary of "indirect" until an editor's action can be wildly construed to be an act which is subject to sanction. Quite frankly, to do so constitutes harassment. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 20:15, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
    @Mkativerata: I believe I have stated the letter of the law above. Anything else is simply a personal interpretation to serve as justification for some action. Assuming good faith demands enforcing the letter of the law but allowing for leniency regarding the intent of the law. Assuming bad faith involves ascribing and enforcing the intent of the law beyond the letter of the law. IMHO, you are stepping out upon an extremely slippery slope. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 20:29, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

    Comment by Short Brigade Harvester Boris

    I can't help but think that if The Antichrist had pulled a similar stunt, admins would be lining up to block him rather than dithering over whether to give him a slap on the wrist. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 05:45, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

    Comment by Enric Naval

    Note the wording of the interaction ban: "shall not interact with each other, nor comment in any way (directly or indirectly) about each other, on any page in Misplaced Pages". It's not the first time that Abd pushes the boundaries of his bans, so please don't let him get away with just a slap on his wrist. You will encourage him, and he will keep nagging at the loophole as hard as he can.

    He also violated this other restriction: Abd is indefinitely prohibited from discussing any dispute in which he is not an originating party. --Enric Naval (talk) 11:19, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

    @Aaron Brenneman. Abd is commenting about the merits of a page that was single-handedly written by WMC and which was originally stored in WMC's userpace. Note that he is not an originating party to the dispute, so he is violating another ban at the same time. Note TenOfAllTrades' analysis that Abd is not a regular MfD editor, and that, lately, he has participated on a MfDs only when editors in conflict with him were involved. --Enric Naval (talk) 11:46, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

    @Abd. See Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive56#Abd, you agreed to abide by this clarification "The rule is simple: never comment about any conflict between two or more people who are not you.". You said that it was all "silly drama", while commenting about a page created and edited exclusively by a person you were told not to interact with, and you were not a party to the disputes about that page. --Enric Naval (talk) 17:27, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

    Looking back, a year ago Abd commented in a AfD, causing a this AE request and a request for clarification that spawned the WMC interaction ban. The admins in the AE thread recommended not to edit disruptively in AfDs. I think it's disruptive to insert yourself in the MfD of a page written by an editor you aren't supposed to interact with, specially since you don't usually comment at MfDs. The only likable explanation for your behaviour is that you saw a topic related to WMC, and you decided to edit there, instead of prudently staying away from anything related to WMC. --Enric Naval (talk) 17:38, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

    And, of course, a deletion discussion is not a "poll", and using that exception to comment about the deletion of a page written by WMC is plain wiki-lawyering. You already said once that opposing a ban discussion in ANI was a "poll" because people used bolded "support" and "oppose" in their comments (should I search that specific diff?). You were already told that it was a violation of your banAbd: ban discussions are not polls within the meaning of your restriction unless ArbCom tells me otherwise. Discussions involving Wikipedians that you happen to know, have conflicted with, or have associated with, does not qualify you as an originating party. You'll note my comments at AE talked a lot about the nature of XfDs, and AN, nor ANI, or AE, or so on qualifies as such. "I imagine the polls so mentioned include things like the recent Arbcom elections, constitutional conventions and straw polls, and perhaps even XfD debates. These polls by their nature invite comment from all, though preferably ones that are pithy, insightful, topical. This invitation does not however allow Abd to engage in the disputes of others using XfD as a medium - (s)he is banned from using all on-wiki media in that way. (...) The summary: the remedy allows participation at XfDs that does not otherwise constitute prohibited behavior.". You used a MfD as a mean to comment on WMC.

    And, of course, "The whole thing is silly drama" is not a policy-based argument, as you recognize yourself, it's a vaguely-worded personal commentary that can easily include WMC's reaction to the deletion (I really hope you were only quoting someone else's literal commentary, but I don't see any quotes there nor mentions of who said it). And you didn't make any policy-based argument, you just said that Bozmo was right and that the discussion was policy-based. You didn't even cite which policies.

    How about you promise not to comment again on anything remotely related to WMC, even if you feel personally that the relation is not significant? Now, that would be a constructive resolution of this AE. --Enric Naval (talk) 18:27, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

    Comment by your name

    Result concerning Abd

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

    Abd has made a brief comment on a RfD. That the above comment is related to WMC is a little tangential (see Misplaced Pages:Six degrees of Misplaced Pages). To call for a long term block based on the evidence provided IMO seems a little much. --Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 01:36, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

    Hardly tangential IMO, since the nomination at the second MfD references WMC directly. I see a violation here, and propose a one-week block. T. Canens (talk) 02:01, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

    If we want to be able to expand existing sanctions in this manner, then we should write them stretchier in the first instance, not shoe-horn items in afterwards. Do I think Abd was drawn to this due to the involvement of he-whom-cannot-be-named? Yes. Can we prove that (or even the standard that passes for "proof" in arbitration) at all? No. Does the comment itself directly or indirectly reference WMC? No. Should Abd be more careful in the future, since (as he contends) people are out to get him? Yes. Finally, and most importantly, why is there an admin-only comment section? - Aaron Brenneman (talk) 04:34, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

    Just a note for clarity in the event of later debate, this page has had comments refactored and reverted - Aaron Brenneman (talk) 05:35, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
    Abd's actions do appear to be a violation of ArbCom sanctions. The AfD clearly listed WMC right in the header, from when it was started at 11:59, and Abd participated at 17:57. Abd's intentions in the matter are irrelevant: As soon as Abd saw WMC's name at the top of the AfD, he should have steered well clear. I would support a block up to a maximum of one week. --Elonka 08:33, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
    Isn't threaded discussion nice?
    1. How is the edit commenting on WMC or his actions? I'd like that question answered as concisely as possible, because I'm a bit slow sometimes: What is Abd saying about WMC in this edit, directly or indirectly?
    2. I'm not sure what information you're attempting to add with those two diffs that the original provided as the genesis for this enforcement request did not?
    Aaron Brenneman (talk) 11:20, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
    The Arbitration motion is clearly a total interaction ban. Abd and WMC are prohibited from interacting, either directly or indirectly, on any page in Misplaced Pages. The AfD was clearly about something WMC-related, which means it fell within the scope of the ban. Abd should have simply avoided it entirely, but he chose to participate anyway, which was a violation of the Arbitration sanction. Therefore an Arbitration Enforcement block should be issued. --Elonka 18:41, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

    I think I could come up with an array of wikilawyer arguments to argue this either way. In my view, interactions bans have a clear purpose: to prevent a poisonous relationship between two editors from deleteriously affecting the project. The bans are worded broadly ("indirectly") so as to achieve this purpose. The context of this MfD and its history indicates that it was, in essence, about WMC and that Abd should therefore have steered well clear of it. So I agree with what T. Canens and Elonka propose. --Mkativerata (talk) 18:54, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

    Abd - it's the fact of the interaction, not just its substance, that can be disruptive. You rocked up to !vote keep for a userpage that was essentially about WMC (initially created by him, a large part of which listed a bunch of his diffs). In this case no disruption appears to have materialised, perhaps because the MfD closed and the page U1'd only a couple of hours after your comment. (Note: I didn't appreciate when making my first comment just how quickly the specific issue at hand became stale, and for that reason wouldn't object to closing this with a mere warning if Abd is willing to accept that these kind of edits will be treated as topic ban violations in the future). --Mkativerata (talk) 20:13, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
    While this is a borderline case with respect to the exact wording of the restriction, I agree with the above administrators as regards its purpose. Taking into account that the restriction cited in the request allows for blocks of up to one week, and that this is the first sanctioned violation of that restriction, I have blocked him, in enforcement of that restriction, for 48 hours. Abd should henceforth refrain from taking any action that could be construed as even indirectly interacting with the other editor named in the restriction.  Sandstein  21:30, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
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