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This article was nominated for deletion on 31 December 2007. The result of the discussion was keep. |
Trial of Knox and Sollecito was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 19 December 2009 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Murder of Meredith Kercher. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here. |
The contents of the Meredith Kercher page were merged into Murder of Meredith Kercher on 13 November 2007. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page. |
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Amanda Knox
NO ACTION No further insight can be gained here, in particular considering the increasingly personalized nature of the debate. Editors who believe they have sufficient material to write a neutral article that overcomes the consensus demonstrated last year at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Amanda Knox require no authorization from participants on this specific talk page and may want to direct their energies into creating an appropriate userspace draft before submitting a request for recreation at WP:DRV, where the wider community will be able to confirm whether the many examples and counter examples cited in this long debate represent exceptions or the current community norm. MLauba 00:36, 19 January 2011 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Shouldn't there be a separate article on Ms. Knox? It seems to me that the story has moved away from the murder and is largely about Amanda Knox these days. A reading of the article, for example, shows that a hefty chunk of it is about her. Just a thought. --RegentsPark (talk) 14:58, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
- Aside from the PR campaign, I'd like to understand how the argument for a spin-off for Knox doesn't also apply to a spin-off for her co-defendant. MLauba 16:01, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
- Well, looking at the article, and taking a purely real estate approach to this thing, I see that two sections (8 and 9) are almost entirely about Knox. Two and a half of the six books listed in section 10.1 feature her in the title (two feature mainly her). Three of the four documentaries seem to be about her. (Disclosure: I haven't see any documentaries nor read any books about the case or Ms. Knox. Most of my information about the case comes from this article.) Section 7 seems almost entirely about Ms. Knox. The other defendant (or murderer perhaps, since they have both been convicted) doesn't seem to get remotely the same amount of coverage. --RegentsPark (talk) 16:32, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
- Perhaps "The other convict..."? Anyhow, please avoid the use of honourific prefixes such as "Ms." in WP. Fullname on first mention, surname or pronoun subsequently as suitable. See wp:HONORIFIC and wp:SURNAME. LeadSongDog come howl! 17:48, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
- I try, often unsuccessfully as I note I did in this article, not to do so in articles. However, MOS is a guideline for articles, not talk pages. --RegentsPark (talk) 18:37, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
- I see it's already fixed in the article.LeadSongDog come howl! 19:01, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
- I try, often unsuccessfully as I note I did in this article, not to do so in articles. However, MOS is a guideline for articles, not talk pages. --RegentsPark (talk) 18:37, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
- Perhaps "The other convict..."? Anyhow, please avoid the use of honourific prefixes such as "Ms." in WP. Fullname on first mention, surname or pronoun subsequently as suitable. See wp:HONORIFIC and wp:SURNAME. LeadSongDog come howl! 17:48, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
- Well, looking at the article, and taking a purely real estate approach to this thing, I see that two sections (8 and 9) are almost entirely about Knox. Two and a half of the six books listed in section 10.1 feature her in the title (two feature mainly her). Three of the four documentaries seem to be about her. (Disclosure: I haven't see any documentaries nor read any books about the case or Ms. Knox. Most of my information about the case comes from this article.) Section 7 seems almost entirely about Ms. Knox. The other defendant (or murderer perhaps, since they have both been convicted) doesn't seem to get remotely the same amount of coverage. --RegentsPark (talk) 16:32, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
- I'm unsure how you'd prove that Knox is notable outside the confines of this incident; two previous AfDs - at a time when interest in the case was much higher - have agreed that she isn't and I can't see that much has changed since. Perhaps the issue is more that the amount of detail about Knox in this article is too high? Black Kite (t) (c) 20:01, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
- That could be the case. The bottom half about the article appears to be mostly about Knox. If there is a general feeling that she is insufficiently notable, then perhaps the stuff that doesn't directly pertain to the murder (the recent indictment, some of the detail in the media section, for example) could be trimmed. --RegentsPark (talk) 21:17, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
Amanda Knox is a classic WP:BLP1E. She is notable only for this murder, and the trials surrounding it. Hipocrite (talk) 21:21, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
- Elizabeth Smart rose to notability solely as a result of being kidnapped and the ensuring legal issues which surround it. Surely she would have not become a well-known figure as she has, were it not for that. The only difference between Ms. Smart and Amanda Knox is that the bias on this wiki currently agrees that Ms. Knox is a perp, not a victim. However, it seems to me that there are enough reliable soruces reporting on the AK situation to call into doubt the validity of her conviction. And while we need not ourselves agree she's been wrongly convicted, we certainly owe the public the opportunity to understand that there is much in the media offering that she has been. AK's notability now centers around the peculiar nature of the Italian justice system and the apparent efforts by the prosecutors to save face. My personal view is that the theory of the case was absurd on its face and the case against Ms. Knox wasn't actually proved - and it seems that there's many notables in the media who have come to the same conclusion. Surely, if we deny AK her own page, we deny our readers a chance to understand this story more clearly. Most people do not know about the intracies and peculiarities of trials and appeals in Italy and that's what the Amanada Knox story has always been about. That Meredith Kercher has been murdered is not disputed. That Amanda Knox currently stands convicted of that is not in dispute. What is, however, in dispute in the media are the peculiarities of this particular trial - as it illustrates the peculiarities of Italian criminal law. The saga of Amanda Knox has indeed taken on a life of its own and to deny that is to deny reality. We need not jump on any pro-Amanda bandwagon, but we do need an Amanda Knox page to tell the whole story of the twists and turns of her saga, guilty or not. Read this, this, this and this 98.118.62.140 (talk) 17:14, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
- re "bias on this wiki currently agrees that Ms. Knox is a perp, not a victim" - I don't think that there is evidence of any such bias. That she was tried and convicted of a crime is a matter of fact, however. It is right that the verdict is recorded here. I disagree that the "saga of Amanda Knox has indeed taken on a life of its own", if by that you mean a life independent of the murder of Meredith Kercher. pablo 17:48, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
- The problem is that I just saw an advertisement for a book on Amanda Knox. I went to Misplaced Pages to learn more about her. Unfortunately, I got redirected here and I can't learn anything about her here. By not having an article on her, Misplaced Pages simply isn't doing for readers what it's supposed to.63.209.178.11 (talk) 16:43, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- re "bias on this wiki currently agrees that Ms. Knox is a perp, not a victim" - I don't think that there is evidence of any such bias. That she was tried and convicted of a crime is a matter of fact, however. It is right that the verdict is recorded here. I disagree that the "saga of Amanda Knox has indeed taken on a life of its own", if by that you mean a life independent of the murder of Meredith Kercher. pablo 17:48, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
- I think your expectations of what Misplaced Pages is supposed to do are wrong. It hasn't prevented you from doing your shopping, has it? pablo 16:46, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- I think your attempt at humor is stupid. I saw a book on a topic that was interesting, and wanted to learn more about his public figure who has received an astronomical amount of media attention. Misplaced Pages provided me with almost no encyclopedic information about this public figure. If you could answer this point without being a douche, I would appreciate it.63.209.178.11 (talk) 19:30, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- Ok I'll try. I think your expectations of what Misplaced Pages is supposed to do are wrong. There is enough information in the article for you to work out why Amanda Knox has attracted media attention. We call these 'facts'. If you wish to know more about the person, you could always either actually buy the book you speak of (although it may be inaccurate or opinionated) or write to her in the nick (although she may not write back). The address is available on the internet and is not hard to find. pablo 20:31, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- Well, your response is more direct, but no less douchey. In summary, I believe that Misplaced Pages should provide encyclopedic content on famous and notable public figures. You believe that Misplaced Pages is for being a jerk and distoring other people's viewpoints. Perhaps you have other views in addition, but it's hard to read through your sarcasm and insults.63.209.178.11 (talk) 20:48, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- Notable, yes. Famous, not necessarily. I have never distored anyone's viewpoint; not once. I wouldn't know how. pablo 22:14, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- She is undeniably famous. Just below there is an article written by Kercher's father bemoaning that Knox is a celebrity and that her parents are afforded celebrity status as well. Heck, Hayden Panettiere is starring in a film called the "Amanda Knox Story".
- BTW, you are excellent at distorting other people's views. Your false modesty doesn't hide your past statements.63.209.178.11 (talk) 22:35, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- You misunderstand. I wrote "Notable, yes. Famous, not necessarily" as a reply to your assertion that "... Misplaced Pages should provide encyclopedic content on famous and notable public figures." This was intended to be read as "I agree that WP should provide encyclopedic content on notable public figures, but this is not necessarily the case for famous public figures." This is in fact policy. Hence people who are 'famous' for one event are generally redirected to an article about the event itself, which is usually more 'famous' than they are.
I would appreciate it if you would either a) stop accusing me of distorting other people's views, or b) provide a specific example from my "past statements" which shows exactly how excellent I am at doing this. pablo 22:54, 14 December 2010 (UTC)- I don't understand any argument that the subject of numerous books, articles, and even some tv shows/movies is somehow not notable. It is clearly possible for someone whose notablility was based on a single incident to become notable individually and separate of that incident. While I understand that other stuff exists, it is shocking to me that people don't see an Amanda Knox article as something that would be helpful to readers or add to the encyclopedic value of this site. One time actors, one hit wonders, one time criminals, and one time authors all have no trouble getting their own pages here, but this is resisted. While I try to assume good faith, I suspect that this is more of an attempt to contain the pro-Knox crazies and control the story than it is to conform to any[REDACTED] policy.
- Regarding your distortions of my views: these are easily viewable on this thread. You were also sarcastic, rude, and insulting, but I don't know if it does any good to rehash this. However, I do appreciate that in your last post you have at least tried to remain civil. For that I thank you.63.209.178.11 (talk) 23:41, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- If you feel that Amanda Knox has done anything independently of her connection with his murder that deserves a Misplaced Pages article, then I'm afraid I disagree. If you want to know more about her, there are whole websites devoted to her. There isn't anything, independent of this murder case, to fill an 'Amanda Knox' article. Not yet, anyway. There are many "pro-Knox crazies" as you put it, around, and avoiding bias has been difficult with this article. But I don't accept that it's about "controlling the story". It's more about making sure that the story is accurate.
sarcastic, rude and insulting - possibly. Distort your point of view? No. pablo 00:15, 15 December 2010 (UTC)- Let's discuss this below and end the topic regarding your behaviour.63.209.178.11 (talk) 15:17, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
- If you feel that Amanda Knox has done anything independently of her connection with his murder that deserves a Misplaced Pages article, then I'm afraid I disagree. If you want to know more about her, there are whole websites devoted to her. There isn't anything, independent of this murder case, to fill an 'Amanda Knox' article. Not yet, anyway. There are many "pro-Knox crazies" as you put it, around, and avoiding bias has been difficult with this article. But I don't accept that it's about "controlling the story". It's more about making sure that the story is accurate.
- You misunderstand. I wrote "Notable, yes. Famous, not necessarily" as a reply to your assertion that "... Misplaced Pages should provide encyclopedic content on famous and notable public figures." This was intended to be read as "I agree that WP should provide encyclopedic content on notable public figures, but this is not necessarily the case for famous public figures." This is in fact policy. Hence people who are 'famous' for one event are generally redirected to an article about the event itself, which is usually more 'famous' than they are.
- Notable, yes. Famous, not necessarily. I have never distored anyone's viewpoint; not once. I wouldn't know how. pablo 22:14, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- Well, your response is more direct, but no less douchey. In summary, I believe that Misplaced Pages should provide encyclopedic content on famous and notable public figures. You believe that Misplaced Pages is for being a jerk and distoring other people's viewpoints. Perhaps you have other views in addition, but it's hard to read through your sarcasm and insults.63.209.178.11 (talk) 20:48, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- Ok I'll try. I think your expectations of what Misplaced Pages is supposed to do are wrong. There is enough information in the article for you to work out why Amanda Knox has attracted media attention. We call these 'facts'. If you wish to know more about the person, you could always either actually buy the book you speak of (although it may be inaccurate or opinionated) or write to her in the nick (although she may not write back). The address is available on the internet and is not hard to find. pablo 20:31, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- I think your attempt at humor is stupid. I saw a book on a topic that was interesting, and wanted to learn more about his public figure who has received an astronomical amount of media attention. Misplaced Pages provided me with almost no encyclopedic information about this public figure. If you could answer this point without being a douche, I would appreciate it.63.209.178.11 (talk) 19:30, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- I think your expectations of what Misplaced Pages is supposed to do are wrong. It hasn't prevented you from doing your shopping, has it? pablo 16:46, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
What's the aggro here for? 63.209.178.11, I think the flaw in what you're saying is that surely if someone wants to find out about Amanda Knox this amounts to them wanting to find out about this murder case, including, broadly, pretty much all of the information in this article (unless some of our information is uninteresting or wrong, but that's another matter). If someone wanted to know about Amanda Knox but wanted this without information about the murder case, then I think I would find that unusual, and I'm not sure it's the type of thing Misplaced Pages is designed to cater for. Also, you might not realise this, but if someone types in "Amanda Knox" they get redirected to this article, so it's not like we're making the info harder to find. Cheers. --FormerIP (talk) 21:16, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- Thank you for making a polite, cogent response. I think your assumption regarding the viewers is wrong (well, it is in my case, anyway)(i.e. there are people who want to learn more about Amanda Knox that don't want to find out all about this murder case.) I wanted to learn more about Amanda Knox and was redirected to this article. The information in this article is not organized (nor should it be) in a manner that allows me to easily learn about Knox, nor does it contain information that I would expect to be able to find out about her. There is huge amount of information here that is notable that is being ignored because it doesn't fit into an article about the murder of Meredith Kercher.63.209.178.11 (talk) 21:41, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
First I would like to address the contention that preventing an article about Knox is about ensuring the story is accurate. This does not withstand logical scrutiny (nor the smell test, for that matter). More information on a subject, if presented honestly and fairly, can never make a story less accurate. An article on Knox would be subject to BLP requirements and normal Misplaced Pages protocols to ensure that her story, as well as the story of the murder of Kercher, is accurate. No argument can be made that an article on Knox is opposed because of concern about the accuracy of the story (which story?) unless you assume that a Knox article would itself be inaccurate.
Now, onto whether Knox deserves her own article. Let's look at the language of the policy. "If reliable sources cover the person only in the context of a single event, and if that person otherwise remains, or is likely to remain, a low-profile individual, we should generally avoid having an article on them."
There are two elements here (one with two parts) that must be satisfied in order for a person not to be justified in having his/her own article. 1. Reliable sources cover the person only in the context of a single event; AND 2. The person remains OR is likely to remain, a low profile individual.
Element One: Single Event
- It would take an incredibly narrow definition of "one event" to have Amanda Know fall under that Misplaced Pages category. Such a narrow definition, as I have noted above, would exclude huge numbers of artists, musicians, authors, actors and , yes, criminals, who already have pages devoted to them.
- Knox is covered by reliable sources in association with many activities. She is covered for the many lawsuits in which she is involved. She is covered as an example of Italian jurisprudence. She is covered as an example of controversy. She is covered as the subject of a movie based solely around her life (not her role in the murder, her life). She gives interviews, as do her parents, and she is covered in this context.
Element Two: Low Profile
- Even if you define a single event so broadly as to exclude many BLPs on Misplaced Pages, the second element of the test is not met. Knox has not kept a low profile. Her parents still routinely give interviews which are covered not only be reliable sources, but the national (US) press. She has a movie about her. She (again, her, not the murder) is the subject of biographical books. She remains a high-profile individual even years after the murder, and with new books and shows planned about her, it would be impossible to state that she is "likely to remain a low profile individual."
Therefore, even though I feel that I have proved that Knox is famous not solely based on one event, such a conclusion is not necessary to find that Knox deserves her own article. One would merely need to find that she is not (or likely not to remail) a low profile individual. With the amount of interviews, books, TV shows and other media attention on her, Knox is clearly not a low profile individual. 63.209.178.11 (talk) 15:44, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
- Irrespective of the policy considerations, looking at this pragmatically, what would go into an Amanda Knox article? The only sources that I have read about her (though others may have read more widely) consist of material that I would categorise as follows:
- Material to do with the murder, investigation and subsequent court proceedings. Actually, most of the books with Knox's name in the title (as far as I've seen) are in reality mostly about this stuff. I would bet money that the movie that is supposedly about her will, in reality, be mostly about the events surrounding the murder and arising from the murder. I would argue that this stuff is best covered in the murder article and we will just create problems for ourselves if we try and cover it again in another article.
- Stuff about Knox's family background and education. I have not seen anything particularly notable in this. If there was, I'm surprised no-one has ever added it to the brief biography section in the present article.
- Stuff about Knox's sex life, drug habits and the like. This has been much covered in newspapers, certainly in the UK, but I don't think it is particularly relevant to an encyclopedia.
- So what is there, that is missing from the murder article and requires the development of a new Amanda Knox article to accommodate it? Bluewave (talk) 18:34, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
- I would imagine that an Amanda Knox article would be similar to the biographies which currently exist about her in books and tv shows/movies. While I am just learning about her now, I would guess the article would go something like this:
- Lede
- Early Life, education, etc. (your comment about putting this into the murder article seems strange...why would you do that? This is an article about the murder, not the individuals. And the idea that this section itself needs to be notable enough to be included in an unrelated article about a murder is also strange. The subject needs be notable. Even if the school she went to isn't, it becomes part of a normal encyclopedia entry. Otherwise Misplaced Pages would hardly ever include education information at all.)
- Murder of Meredith Kercher. This would be a summarized version of the first half of this article.
- Appeals and other Court Cases. Self explanatory.
- Portrayal in Media. A survey of how the media has portrayed Knox in the Press.
- Public reaction to Knox. The disparate and differing opinions/camps regarding Knox.
- Portrayal in Popular Culture. This could also include references to the biographies, books, TV shows, and films about Knox.
- There is enough here for a very meaty article, and certainly an article more substantive than many, many other ones on Misplaced Pages (yes, yes, other stuff exists). Most importantly, the early life and portrayal in popular culture sections are wholly inappropriate for the current article, and the public reaction and media sections cannot be fleshed out as much in this article as they could be in a Knox article for various reasons (not only because of WP: Undue, but because they would bog down the article and make it read worse). Seeing as there is a lot of content not available on[REDACTED] because it cannot (and should not) be shoe-horned into this article, and seeing as the information clearly does not trigger WP: One Event concerns, there is no reason not to have this article.63.209.178.11 (talk) 19:16, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
- But why is she notable except for being convicted of a crime - a crime on which we already have a article? Most of the possible content above sounds more like a tabloid newspaper article than an encyclopedia entry, as well - given the hysterical media coverage in various places - as being a BLP nightmare. It would be best if any such article was created in userspace anyway, as previous consensus is clearly against such an article being stand-alone. (Also, it might be better to wait until the appeals are over - if her conviction is overturned, everything changes). Black Kite (t) (c) 19:23, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
- It doesn't matter that she became notable because she committed a crime. Please see http://en.wikipedia.org/Category:American_people_convicted_of_murder 63.209.178.11 (talk) 19:28, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, I totally agree that many of those shouldn't have articles. However, the problem is that previous attempts to create Knox articles have been single-minded attempts to "prove" her innocence or cast doubt on the convictions through hearsay and rumour. This has caused much disruption. I'm obviously not saying that is what you want to do, but given the previous history I do think that any possible article should be built in userspace first. Black Kite (t) (c) 19:33, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
- I agree that a Knox article shouldn't be used to change the story here, increase inaccuracy, or somehow "prove" anyone's innocence. Generally, I would disagree with your point about making the article in the user space first because I wouldn't have nearly enough information to create a coherent article on my own - I would build a base and try to direct it's creation. However, given that there has been an official WP proclaimation on this, and because of the purported past attempts to introduce a POV article, it would make sense for an article to first be created in a user space in this instance. One thing I don't like is the argument that we shouldn't make an article because it's hard. We should do what is best for the readers, and be vigilent to protect the article from POV pushers.63.209.178.11 (talk) 19:57, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, I totally agree that many of those shouldn't have articles. However, the problem is that previous attempts to create Knox articles have been single-minded attempts to "prove" her innocence or cast doubt on the convictions through hearsay and rumour. This has caused much disruption. I'm obviously not saying that is what you want to do, but given the previous history I do think that any possible article should be built in userspace first. Black Kite (t) (c) 19:33, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
- I would imagine that an Amanda Knox article would be similar to the biographies which currently exist about her in books and tv shows/movies. While I am just learning about her now, I would guess the article would go something like this:
63.209.178.11: It seems to me that what your asking for is a new article containing the same information as this one but in a different order, plus additional information about one of the convicted parties' background (which could in principle go in this article if people felt it would be a valuable addition to Misplaced Pages). In other words, you're asking for a duplicate of this article. Which would serve no purpose, which is why it is against WP policy. Even in high-profile cases, where there are multiple people convicted of the same crime, Misplaced Pages will tend to cover the crime in a single article relating to the crime and the names of the perpetrators will generally be redirects (see, for example: Myra Hindley, Ian Huntley, Michael Barton, Jon Venables). If you think that's the wrong policy, you could start a discussion at Misplaced Pages talk:Biographies of living persons or at Misplaced Pages:Village pump. If you think there is a a good reason to make an exception in this case, then you could launch a WP:RfC (but see previous community discussions here and here). I honestly don't think it's a good use of your time to carry on making your case here, because I don't think the editors who have commented are likely to change their minds. I would think about this before creating an article in userspace, because I don't think your chances of getting it transferred into mainspace will be good and you may end up just wasting your time. Although, I suppose, not a lot of time since you mainly just need to copy and paste from this article. --FormerIP (talk) 20:14, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
- I don't know why it would seem that I am asking for a duplicate article. I am not. I am asking for what I asked for above. Also, your reading of WP policy is odd to say the least. I have given you tons of examples of people who are famous merely for having committed a crime, and they have their own pages, not redirects. The odd thing is that Knox is more famous than the vast majority of them. I am not asking for any exceptions to WP policy...again, please see above. I love how every time I argue that a cited policy doesn't fit the stated argument, people come up with new policies to quote.63.209.178.11 (talk) 20:28, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
- 63.209.178.11, I don't believe I just quoted any policies at you, new or old. I also don't believe anyone has tried to claim that people who have committed a crime should never be the subject of an article. There are clearly lots of cases where this is appropriate. However, in cases such as this one, where multiple people have been convicted of the same crime and none of them are notable for anything not directly related to that crime, the standard interpretation of policy is that we treat the situation with one article rather than multiple articles covering the crime from the perspective of the various perpetrators.
- The main thing is, though, you are not going to get any joy out of this discussion. No-one is likely to change their minds and even if someone new turns up who shares your view that will only mean that you have an extra person on your side of a pointless back-and-forth discussion repeating the same things over and over (this is what is already happening). If you are serious about wanting to challenge either policy or its application in this case, you need to go somewhere where you will get the attention of editors not previously involved on this talk page. Cheers. --FormerIP (talk) 21:28, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
- While you didn't specifically quote a policy, you (incorrectly) indicated what WP policy is. Furthermore, your examples seem oddly chosen to me (or perhaps self selected). I've never heard of those crimes (probably because they are from the UK). However, in the first two examples I looked up ,the Manson Family and the DC Snipers, all the criminals each had their own articles. The next example, the Menendez Brothers, share one article that includes the information you would expect regarding an article on the murderers and not the actual crime.63.209.178.11 (talk) 21:52, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
- Your point regarding the fruitfullness of this discussion is well taken. One of the problems is that people don't say the same things again and again...they change their arguments every single time a point is made that contradicts their view. I merely came here looking to correct an what I felt was an obvious oversight and assumed I could find an open and honest discussion.63.209.178.11 (talk) 21:52, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
- Enough with your snide comments. It's not an oversight, it's been discussed, many times, it's being discussed now. Openly and honestly. If you have anything to say about the subject under discussion please go ahead. If you merely wish to snipe because you're not getting the response you're looking for, please go away. pablo 22:04, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
- It might be helpful if instead of inserting your vitriol without making any substantive additions to the argument at all, you confined yourself to my talk page. I have started a discussion on yours so that your disruptions to this conversation can be minimized. If you wish, you can remove both this comment and yours as of 22:04 15 Dec so that this page can be open for actual discussions.63.209.178.11 (talk) 22:20, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
- Enough with your snide comments. It's not an oversight, it's been discussed, many times, it's being discussed now. Openly and honestly. If you have anything to say about the subject under discussion please go ahead. If you merely wish to snipe because you're not getting the response you're looking for, please go away. pablo 22:04, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
- Bluewave, thank you for taking the time to respond to my comments. I thought that it was strange that you would use the same standards for determining whether or not including Knox's early life/education in this article as you would use in an article based solely on her. It seems that you have backed off that position or that I had misunderstood your position.
- If your point is that the amount of information about someone's early life/education should be generally proportional to the relevency of their later notability, I would generally agree (though many articles do not seem to follow this rule, like just about any article on any actor or musician). However, both Albert Stanley and Edgar Speyer have significant (if not overwhelming) details on their early life and education, and I would expect to have a similar amount for an article on Knox. In fact, I was not able to find any article (beyond stub articles) on a person which did not include at least some info on their early life/education (I'm sure they are out there, but you get my point). Furthermore, the history would tell us how Knox got the nickname Foxy Knoxy (which I had to look up elsewhere, and isn't for the reason you'd originally assume).63.209.178.11 (talk) 14:35, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
- I was trying to use only articles with "featured" status as examples, because they represent the highest quality standard. And based on an admittedly small sample there did seem to be a good correspondence between early life coverage and its relevance to notability. Regarding the origin of the Foxy Knoxy nickname, the Knox Family's PR company has been diligent in pushing one explanation for this. Meanwhile, tabloid newspapers have been favouring a very different explanation. Faced with the choice of whether to trust the reliability of a PR company or a tabloid newspaper, I think the present article has made the right decision not to mention either explanation! Bluewave (talk) 15:59, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
- As I mentioned, even the articles you mention have a good amount of early life/education info in them, which buttresses my point that an article on Knox would also contain some of this information.
- I didn't mean to start a discussion of the "Foxy" nickname, and I don't know if the source you quoted is a reliable one, but the others definitely are. It is certainly possible (and I believe, based on nothing other than nicknaming habits of young people) that multiple people came up with this nickname for multiple reasons. But wouldn't the best response be to present the credible, reliably sourced information (on both/any side) rather than to say nothing and invite potential misunderstanding?63.209.178.11 (talk) 16:31, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
- Since Pablo's 1st post on this thread was a reply to my comment and since 63's 1st post on this thread was a reply to Pablo's reply to me, I think I'm in a good position to reply to the entire thread. Frankly, I find it curious that nobody noticed that I referred to the Elizabeth Smart article to make my point. However, since I think it relevant, I ask everyone to look at that article. I chose the ES article to point out a situation where someone has a Wiki article as a consequence of merely being in the news for a limited reason. However, I think I should have chosen the Lori Berenson article as a better example as it's very close to what an Amanda Knox article should be like. Lori was not at all notable before her conviction, incarceration and lengthy appeals. In fact the Wiki article starts off with "Lori Helene Berenson (born November 13, 1969) is an American convicted in Peru of unlawful collaboration with the Túpac Amaru Revolutionary Movement...". It's very clear that Lori's story took on a life of it's own in the media after her conviction and that's why she's notable - because the story surrounding her is notable. Similarly, I feel that Amanda's story has taken on a life of it's own and likewise warrants an article such as Lori's. Additionally, it's my view that Amanda's story, like Lori's, is essentially that of a political prisoner. To me, I see the case against Amanda as rife with cultural bias and anti-American bigotry and frankly, I think the prosecution's theory of the case could only be believed by someone who views Americans as wanton and lascivious. Similarly, I feel that Lori ultimately stayed in jail for many, many years owing to a local cultural bias that Americans are meddling Gringos who need to be shown the boot of justice. Now of course, each of us is free to conclude as we see fit, but I do feel that an Amanda Knox page is warranted at this point; if only to to give the full picture of her story and circumstances, as per how the Lori Berenson page does this. Had no media phenomenon have coalesced around Amanda's story, I'd say drop it. But it is true that her story has taken on a life of it's own and now is a notable one. Amanda Knox should have her own page. 98.118.62.140 (talk) 05:05, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
- I think you're missing the point a bit, 98.118.62.140. There is no such rule as "people notable because of a crime do not get their own article", and I don't think anyone has tried to claim otherwise. However, where a person is notable because of one crime and they have no other claim to notability, normal practice is to cover the crime within one article (whatever the title of the article happens to be). Obviously, the degree of overlap if we had one article for the crime and one for the criminal would be more or less complete, so there is no need for more than one. There may be occasional exceptions, for example where the events to be covered are of such enormity that multiple articles are clearly required (obvious example: the 9/11 attacks). But the "one article" rule is followed for killers who have had much more media coverage than Knox (Lyle and Erik Menendez, Moors Murders etc). --FormerIP (talk) 07:55, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
- There are a couple of problems with your arguments, FormerIP. WP policy regarding a person who is notable because of one crime is that they generally shouldn't get their own article if both the following are true: 1. Reliable sources cover the person only in the context of a single event; AND 2. The person remains OR is likely to remain, a low profile individual. Seeing as it is 3 years after the crime and Knox is still featured prominently in the news, Knox is the subject of countless articles, Knox is the subject a few books, and Knox is the subject of an upcoming movie (The Amanda Knox Story), the second prong of the test cannot be satisfied. Not only is she high profile, but she looks to remain high profile for the foreseeable future. (I would also argue that the first prong is not met, but that is unnecessary)
- Furthermore, your examples of the "one article rule" don't further your cause. While it is disputable that Knox has received less coverage than the Menendez crimes, it is highly unlikely that, at least in America, that the Moors Murders got even half the coverage that Knox did (I had never heard of these murders before, neither had anyone in my office who I've asked about this...of course, this is probably because we are in the US). Additionally, the Menendez article is not written like a crime article, but like a biographical one (albeit with both brothers treated together). The article spends time introducing their early life and education, and about 33% of the article deals with their lives after the trials/appeals. Other crimes, like the DC sniper crimes, which were big stories for awhile but petered out much faster than the coverage of Knox, have each of the individuals getting their own biographies. This is also true of every member of the Manson family, among others. We have a case here were common sense, WP policy, and past practice all dictate that Knox should have her own article.63.209.178.11 (talk) 19:25, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
- Being on opposite sides of the Atlantic obviously we have some difficulty agreeing what are really major murder cases. I'm happy to allow you the research job. Can you name any really major murder cases, ones that everyone in the US will be familiar with, where there was one crime, the perpetrator is not notable for anything other than the crime (ie not Phil Spector - although you'll notice if you take a look that even that doesn't get a standalone article) and where there is an article covering the crime and a separate article covering the biography of the killer? Note that examples such as the Manson Family don't count because they committed multiple crimes - obviously with all the people involved and the large amount of data required just to give them a basic biography, one article is not going to be suitable.
- Further examples where there is only one article (just for interests sake): Ted Bundy, Bonnie and Clyde, Peter Sutcliffe, Harold Shipman, Michael Swango. Why is Knox such an exceptional case? --FormerIP (talk) 23:54, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
- Well, I reject the premise of your questions. My premise was that Amanda Knox needed her own article because readers coming here to learn about her find the article (1) not organized as it would be in a biography; and (2) doesn't contain information that otherwise would be contained in a biography. The people who have biographical articles (Ted Bundy, Menendez Bros., the Unabomber) and those with both articles on the crime and the people (Manson Family, DC Snipers) all have biographical information available to the public that we are not providing concerning Knox. When it comes down to it, there is no WP policy against having a Knox article, and there is no content argument to be made that this will somehow hurt Misplaced Pages. We are depriving the readers of Misplaced Pages of encyclopedic information for no good reason.
- You can try and argue the difference between multiple crimes and single crimes (are conspiracy and racketeering charges single crimes (as the US government contends) or separate ones for the purposes of WP? is a b&e, rape, and murder one crime even though it is prosecuted as 3?) but the distinction is essentially meaningless here as the second prong of the "one-crime" test is not met (namely, Knox is not a low profile individual).
- The real question, for me, is has there ever been a criminal who has gotten as much media attention as Knox has without having any article which includes standard biographical information about that person? Why is Knox such an exceptional case that readers of Misplaced Pages must be deprived of that information?
- In addition to the people I mentioned above, the Columbine killers got their own biographical article and there is a columbine massacre article. Ditto for the Virgina Tech shooting guy. Ditto for the Amish school killer. Ditto for Karesh. The Winnendon and Jokela shootings articles have more biographical information than they do information about the crimes.63.209.178.11 (talk) 01:37, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
- There's no reason why biographical content can't be added to the this article. That doesn't pose a problem. Seung-Hui Cho has a 90K biography page and I think that is why there are two pages for the VT massacre. The existence of Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold as an article is bizarre, I think, and that should really be merged.
- Anyhow, as I said half a mile up the page, this discussion is pointless. To get an Amanda Knox article created you will need to establish a community consensus. Even if you suddenly persuade me to change my mind in this discussion, that won't get the page created. --FormerIP (talk) 13:47, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
- I think you're missing the point a bit, 98.118.62.140. There is no such rule as "people notable because of a crime do not get their own article", and I don't think anyone has tried to claim otherwise. However, where a person is notable because of one crime and they have no other claim to notability, normal practice is to cover the crime within one article (whatever the title of the article happens to be). Obviously, the degree of overlap if we had one article for the crime and one for the criminal would be more or less complete, so there is no need for more than one. There may be occasional exceptions, for example where the events to be covered are of such enormity that multiple articles are clearly required (obvious example: the 9/11 attacks). But the "one article" rule is followed for killers who have had much more media coverage than Knox (Lyle and Erik Menendez, Moors Murders etc). --FormerIP (talk) 07:55, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
- Since Pablo's 1st post on this thread was a reply to my comment and since 63's 1st post on this thread was a reply to Pablo's reply to me, I think I'm in a good position to reply to the entire thread. Frankly, I find it curious that nobody noticed that I referred to the Elizabeth Smart article to make my point. However, since I think it relevant, I ask everyone to look at that article. I chose the ES article to point out a situation where someone has a Wiki article as a consequence of merely being in the news for a limited reason. However, I think I should have chosen the Lori Berenson article as a better example as it's very close to what an Amanda Knox article should be like. Lori was not at all notable before her conviction, incarceration and lengthy appeals. In fact the Wiki article starts off with "Lori Helene Berenson (born November 13, 1969) is an American convicted in Peru of unlawful collaboration with the Túpac Amaru Revolutionary Movement...". It's very clear that Lori's story took on a life of it's own in the media after her conviction and that's why she's notable - because the story surrounding her is notable. Similarly, I feel that Amanda's story has taken on a life of it's own and likewise warrants an article such as Lori's. Additionally, it's my view that Amanda's story, like Lori's, is essentially that of a political prisoner. To me, I see the case against Amanda as rife with cultural bias and anti-American bigotry and frankly, I think the prosecution's theory of the case could only be believed by someone who views Americans as wanton and lascivious. Similarly, I feel that Lori ultimately stayed in jail for many, many years owing to a local cultural bias that Americans are meddling Gringos who need to be shown the boot of justice. Now of course, each of us is free to conclude as we see fit, but I do feel that an Amanda Knox page is warranted at this point; if only to to give the full picture of her story and circumstances, as per how the Lori Berenson page does this. Had no media phenomenon have coalesced around Amanda's story, I'd say drop it. But it is true that her story has taken on a life of it's own and now is a notable one. Amanda Knox should have her own page. 98.118.62.140 (talk) 05:05, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
- I was trying to use only articles with "featured" status as examples, because they represent the highest quality standard. And based on an admittedly small sample there did seem to be a good correspondence between early life coverage and its relevance to notability. Regarding the origin of the Foxy Knoxy nickname, the Knox Family's PR company has been diligent in pushing one explanation for this. Meanwhile, tabloid newspapers have been favouring a very different explanation. Faced with the choice of whether to trust the reliability of a PR company or a tabloid newspaper, I think the present article has made the right decision not to mention either explanation! Bluewave (talk) 15:59, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
I completely agree with the point raised by RegentsPark. This article doesn't even mention Knox' date of birth, it hardly mentions her at all, and gives no information a reader would be looking for. That's ridiculous, given that Amanda Knox is the main person of the story (almost all coverage has focused on her), a movie on her life (titled Amanda Knox) starring Hayden Panettiere as her is in production, there have been books, her name returns millions of Google results, etc. The one event thing is nonsense, she is known for this just like Obama is only known for being the President. Cawalt (talk) 00:52, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
Someone asked: "looking at this pragmatically, what would go into an Amanda Knox article? "
My answer: How about some basic information about her for starters, such as when and where she was born, information that's not currently found in this article(!). When her life is interesting enough to make a movie about, it's surely interesting enough to warrant a Misplaced Pages biography. Most subjects of biographies are less notable and have never been the subjects of biopics. Amanda Knox is a famous person, like it or not. Cawalt (talk) 00:56, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
- Well said. You are 100% right. I suggest you go read WP:BLP1E because that is the most usual argument against a Knox article. I have disputed this argument above, but expect push back on the idea of a Knox article based on that reason.
- I suspect the real reason for resistance against an article is based on three things: 1. the contentious nature of this crime and the widely divergent press coverage it received in Italy, Britain and America (and the corresponding criticism of the media/legal systems in those countries); 2. people's distaste for POV pushers that come to this article and argue Knox is innocent (which is not the role of WP); and 3. a sense that it is wrong that Knox (a convict) has gotten more attention (mostly positive in the US) than the victim. I am sure my assessment will be vigorously disputed by the regulars here, but it doesn't matter. I tell you this only to warn you against uncivil responses and to advise you to try and stick to making your arguments in a civil way, to not be bullied, and to understand why people may have such strong opinions on this matter to which you should be sensitive.LedRush (talk) 15:10, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
Again, I'll point out that nobody has attempted to refute my example of Elizabeth Smart having a page, but Amanda Knox not having one. The only difference between the two is that Smart was a crime victim and Knox stands convicted. Other than that, they are virtually identical in their pre-crime non-notability. I think LedRush should simply start the Knox page and post a link to it here, so we can all know it's up and help to defend it against deletionists. The Amanda Knox story has taken on a life of its own and there needs to be an Amanda Knox wiki page. 98.118.62.140 (talk) 18:32, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
- Well that's not the only difference, but it certainly is a significant difference. Perhaps nobody has attempted to refute because your argument makes more of a case for Meredith Kercher having a page about her than Amanda Knox? There could be any number of reasons. A better page to discuss whether Elizabeth Smart should have an article is located here.
- IP 98.118..., you are right with your analogy. Of course, Pablo has deliberately distorted your point to make a joke, which seems to be a bit of a MO for him as he has done this to me above. However, he is right that there are other differences between the two. For example, Smart has kept a relatively low profile while Knox and her family have actively sought the limelight. That means that Knox more clearly doesn't fit into BLP1E concerns because she is more clearly not a low profile individual. Additionally, Knox has received more press for a more sustained period (did Smart get half this coverage overseas?). Of course, other stuff exists, so getting too technical in this argument isn't helpful, but this should be added to the very long list of reasons why Knox should have her own article.LedRush (talk) 12:29, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
- nb Much as I enjoy a joke, that wasn't one. I do feel that a standalone Knox article is not currently warranted. This may change. If, for example, she's exonerated and freed as a result of this appeal, I will support such an article, however. pablo 14:02, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
- Pablo - by stating that you will only support an Amanda Knox article if she's "exonerated and freed", you betray the exact bias which I contend exists regarding Ms. Knox. You need to step back and see this issue more clearly. Ms. Knox's notability does not rise or fall on her innocence/guilt and for you to suggest it should, is biased. Also, as I suggested elsewhere above, take a look at the Lori Berenson article. That article long predated any suggestion she would be getting out or any exoneration, hence; you setting exoneration as a condition before a convicted person gets an article pales in comparsion. Lori Berenson became notable precisly because the story of her incarceration became notable - which is exactly the same thing with Amanda Knox. Some of those opposed to a Knox arrticle have not held themselves to the clear and common practices of the wiki, but instead are using specious and legalistic twistings to avoid the truth: Amanda Knox should have her own article. 98.118.62.140 (talk) 19:07, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
- While I'm not sure that you are justified in calling Pablo biased, the thrust of your argument is correct. I have also pointed to many examples of people who have articles despite less media coverage, a lower profile, and/or a separate article on the crime. No one has really defended their anti-article position while acknowledging the arguments for it (and the counters to their anti-article arguments. However, as FormerIP pointed out above, even "winning" the argument here won't guarantee an article on Knox (though it appears that many of the people who argued against the article are regular contributors here).LedRush (talk) 19:34, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
- Now that is a blatant distortion. I did not say that I would "only support an Amanda Knox article if she's exonerated and freed". I was giving that as an example of a possible change in circumstances which would cause a rethink. I thought that I had signalled this by using the phrase "if, for example" so that people would be able to pick up on my meaning, seems that this was not enough. For the record then, this was a hypothetical example of one possible outcome of the appeal trial that would more than likely cause me to support a stand-alone article on Amanda Knox. This is not due to any 'bias'; I do not give two hoots about the outcome of the appeal but would like it, whatever it may be, to be covered appropriately. pablo 20:31, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
- Pablo, that you would even consider changing your support for an article based on a change in her conviction status shows that you are focusing on the wrong thing - and that is indeed a form of bias. Guilty/innocent is irrelevant. Rather, what's relevant is the notability of her story. Think about Lori Berenson - it's the notability of her incarceration which warranted that she have an article. Amanda Knox is notable for similar reasons: 1) Controversial case, 2) Allegations of unfair trial, 3) International legal dispute of high profile, 4) Widespead media reporting. It's absurd that Lori Berenson should have an article and Amanda Knox should not. 98.118.62.140 (talk) 04:39, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
- No it is not an indication of bias.
- I do not consider that Amanda Knox at the moment warrants a standalone article.
- This may change in the future.
- One of the many possible sets of circumstances is a successful appeal. This is what is known as 'an example', and does not show that I am 'focusing on' anything.
- There is no bias intended or implied, and I suggest you withdraw your repeated accusations. pablo 12:12, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
- Perhaps it is best to ignore the word "bias" (which I still think was poorly chosen). My understanding is that Pablo believes that one of the many examples of what could change his mind to allow for a standalone Knox article would be if she was found innocent. IP98.1118 believes that this focuses on the wrong point and that guilt or innocence is irrelevant to whether someone gets an article. While I understand and generally agree with that argument, it is clear that a reversal of Knox's conviction would make this story even bigger (and for an even more sustained period). For that reason, it could then pass Pablo's threshhold for notability (or for whatever BLP1E concerns he may have). Even if my above speculation is incorrect, I'd like to ask Pablo a question: does Knox's status of either guilt or innocence effect your opinion of whether WP should have a standalone article on her (regardless of any increased media attention afforded to that change of status)? Another way to ask this would be: If Knox had gotten the exact same amount of media attention as she had now, but was originally found innocent, would you think she is deserving of her own article?LedRush (talk) 13:35, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
- That's fairly accurate analysis, and an interesting question. I think the answer's probably 'no', but it obviously would depend on other (hypothetical) factors which might come into play in such a situation. pablo 15:24, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
- Perhaps it is best to ignore the word "bias" (which I still think was poorly chosen). My understanding is that Pablo believes that one of the many examples of what could change his mind to allow for a standalone Knox article would be if she was found innocent. IP98.1118 believes that this focuses on the wrong point and that guilt or innocence is irrelevant to whether someone gets an article. While I understand and generally agree with that argument, it is clear that a reversal of Knox's conviction would make this story even bigger (and for an even more sustained period). For that reason, it could then pass Pablo's threshhold for notability (or for whatever BLP1E concerns he may have). Even if my above speculation is incorrect, I'd like to ask Pablo a question: does Knox's status of either guilt or innocence effect your opinion of whether WP should have a standalone article on her (regardless of any increased media attention afforded to that change of status)? Another way to ask this would be: If Knox had gotten the exact same amount of media attention as she had now, but was originally found innocent, would you think she is deserving of her own article?LedRush (talk) 13:35, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
- No it is not an indication of bias.
- Pablo, that you would even consider changing your support for an article based on a change in her conviction status shows that you are focusing on the wrong thing - and that is indeed a form of bias. Guilty/innocent is irrelevant. Rather, what's relevant is the notability of her story. Think about Lori Berenson - it's the notability of her incarceration which warranted that she have an article. Amanda Knox is notable for similar reasons: 1) Controversial case, 2) Allegations of unfair trial, 3) International legal dispute of high profile, 4) Widespead media reporting. It's absurd that Lori Berenson should have an article and Amanda Knox should not. 98.118.62.140 (talk) 04:39, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
- Pablo - by stating that you will only support an Amanda Knox article if she's "exonerated and freed", you betray the exact bias which I contend exists regarding Ms. Knox. You need to step back and see this issue more clearly. Ms. Knox's notability does not rise or fall on her innocence/guilt and for you to suggest it should, is biased. Also, as I suggested elsewhere above, take a look at the Lori Berenson article. That article long predated any suggestion she would be getting out or any exoneration, hence; you setting exoneration as a condition before a convicted person gets an article pales in comparsion. Lori Berenson became notable precisly because the story of her incarceration became notable - which is exactly the same thing with Amanda Knox. Some of those opposed to a Knox arrticle have not held themselves to the clear and common practices of the wiki, but instead are using specious and legalistic twistings to avoid the truth: Amanda Knox should have her own article. 98.118.62.140 (talk) 19:07, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
- nb Much as I enjoy a joke, that wasn't one. I do feel that a standalone Knox article is not currently warranted. This may change. If, for example, she's exonerated and freed as a result of this appeal, I will support such an article, however. pablo 14:02, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
- IP 98.118..., you are right with your analogy. Of course, Pablo has deliberately distorted your point to make a joke, which seems to be a bit of a MO for him as he has done this to me above. However, he is right that there are other differences between the two. For example, Smart has kept a relatively low profile while Knox and her family have actively sought the limelight. That means that Knox more clearly doesn't fit into BLP1E concerns because she is more clearly not a low profile individual. Additionally, Knox has received more press for a more sustained period (did Smart get half this coverage overseas?). Of course, other stuff exists, so getting too technical in this argument isn't helpful, but this should be added to the very long list of reasons why Knox should have her own article.LedRush (talk) 12:29, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
Bradley Manning is only known for one thing. Why does he get his own page? It seems a matter of common sense that there should be a page for Amanda Knox. Totorotroll (talk) 21:09, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
- There is one page about the events involving Bradley Manning, and one page about the events involving Knox. The Manning page could just as well be called "US Army Wikileaks scandal" or something similar; but this page clearly couldn't be called "Amanda Knox". Black Kite (t) (c) 22:20, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
- Of course, this response covers over the truth: the Bradley Manning page contains much biographical information about him (approximately 40%) that an article on the murder of Kercher can't really include about Knox. There are literally hundreds of articles on[REDACTED] which are more BLP1E susceptible than a Knox article would be, but none of that matters in this context. A very small and very vocal group of vigilantes has decided to protect the world from having easy access to biographical information on an extremely public and notable person.LedRush (talk) 05:14, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
- There is a lot of biographical information in that article; there's far more than is needed. It would make more sense to change the title and have an article about the 'one event' that he is notable for which could contain a (sgort) biographical section.
There are certainly some vigilant editors here, but calling them "vigilantes" seems like you are intending a personal attack. pablo 09:52, 10 January 2011 (UTC)- Pablo - please tell me, from your perspective, should Jared Lee Loughner have an article, yes or no? And since there is one for him, please explain to me why he does and Amanda Knox should not. 98.118.62.140 (talk) 06:22, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
- There is a lot of biographical information in that article; there's far more than is needed. It would make more sense to change the title and have an article about the 'one event' that he is notable for which could contain a (sgort) biographical section.
- Of course, this response covers over the truth: the Bradley Manning page contains much biographical information about him (approximately 40%) that an article on the murder of Kercher can't really include about Knox. There are literally hundreds of articles on[REDACTED] which are more BLP1E susceptible than a Knox article would be, but none of that matters in this context. A very small and very vocal group of vigilantes has decided to protect the world from having easy access to biographical information on an extremely public and notable person.LedRush (talk) 05:14, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
- Pablo - if you were as diligent about seeking the removal/blocking of other articles of this type as you have been about Amanda Knox, I would put more weight on your assertions. As it stands now, I feel you have wp:own issues regarding Ms. Knox and a page for her and I think you should recuse yourself from this debate. 98.118.62.140 (talk) 19:50, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
- It makes no difference to me what weight you put on my assertions. I have thousands of articles on my watchlist, and will edit any, all, or none of them as I see fit, not in a way that you decide appropriate. If you want to discuss Loughner, there's a handy page here where you can do so. One of the things you can discuss there is a merge. pablo 17:22, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
- Pablo, when you say "It makes no difference to me what weight you put on my assertions" it makes me think that your mind is closed towards reaching a consensus with other editors. Is it? 98.118.62.140 (talk) 21:12, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
- It makes no difference to me what weight you put on my assertions. I have thousands of articles on my watchlist, and will edit any, all, or none of them as I see fit, not in a way that you decide appropriate. If you want to discuss Loughner, there's a handy page here where you can do so. One of the things you can discuss there is a merge. pablo 17:22, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
- No, it means that I do not edit in order to win your approval, nor do I intend to start. pablo 21:36, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
- Ok, but I do ask you to please take notice of the fact I've not suggested in any way that you should be seeking my approval. And frankly, I fail to see why you would suggest that I have. That said, I am highly interested to better undestand your reasoning for opposing an article about Amanda Knox. So far, I've pointed out to you that Elizabeth Smart, Lori Berenson and Jared Lee Loughner all have articles. Others have pointed out that Bradley Manning also has one. None of those people are situated any differently than Amanda Knox. What is puzzling me is the apparent disparities in their treatment as an article subject vs. Ms. Knox. Perhaps if I understood your thinking more clearly, I would feel that we are doing the right thing by wiki rules in blocking the Knox article. But as it stands right now, I feel those who oppose a Knox article have not made a good case as to why Ms. Knox ought to not have an article along the lines of the clear precedent set by the other articles. 98.118.62.140 (talk) 21:53, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
- No, it means that I do not edit in order to win your approval, nor do I intend to start. pablo 21:36, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
- Please take notice of the fact that in this post you implied that I should be seeking to remove the 'other articles of this type' and suggested that I 'recuse from this debate'. Why you feel entitled to make such demands I don't know.
You certainly are puzzled; further clue may be gained by reading this essay. Please do so, because it's getting somewhat tedious repeating that the place to discuss the articles on Elizabeth Smart, Jared Lee Loughner, Bill Brewer, Jan Stewer, Peter Gurney, Peter Davey etc is on their respective talk pages.
Incidentally, why not log in? pablo 22:25, 18 January 2011 (UTC)- My posts speak for themselves, as do yours. Rather than go in cricles, I'll take your tangental reply to my last post as your concession that you are in fact mistaken: At no time did I suggest that you needed to win my approval. Now, regarding those other articles being metioned here; I am mentioning them because the very existance of those articles indicates to me that this wiki has a precedent of allowing the exact type of article which some of us want for Amanda Knox, but you oppos. Frankly, I feel it's imcumbent on you to explain why the clear precedent of those articles shouldn't trump your opposition; but so far, you've declined to address that point. Your silence on this point impedes our ability to reach consensus, so I ask that you please address my point, which is: I contend that the existance of those articles indicates the wiki does in fact allow articles of the type which an Amanda knox article would be. Please explain why you think this is not so. 98.118.62.140 (talk) 23:13, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
- When I read through this exchange, I thought that Pablo had addressed the point about the existence of other articles by pointing us to the Other stuff exists essay. Bluewave (talk) 23:21, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
- My posts speak for themselves, as do yours. Rather than go in cricles, I'll take your tangental reply to my last post as your concession that you are in fact mistaken: At no time did I suggest that you needed to win my approval. Now, regarding those other articles being metioned here; I am mentioning them because the very existance of those articles indicates to me that this wiki has a precedent of allowing the exact type of article which some of us want for Amanda Knox, but you oppos. Frankly, I feel it's imcumbent on you to explain why the clear precedent of those articles shouldn't trump your opposition; but so far, you've declined to address that point. Your silence on this point impedes our ability to reach consensus, so I ask that you please address my point, which is: I contend that the existance of those articles indicates the wiki does in fact allow articles of the type which an Amanda knox article would be. Please explain why you think this is not so. 98.118.62.140 (talk) 23:13, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
- Please take notice of the fact that in this post you implied that I should be seeking to remove the 'other articles of this type' and suggested that I 'recuse from this debate'. Why you feel entitled to make such demands I don't know.
- Yeah, but as long as someone chooses not to listen it's senseless to explain it over and over again.TMCk (talk) 23:28, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
- I thought so too. I'm done for the night. pablo 23:32, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
- Well, pointing out that other stuff exists is basically a borderline rude way of saying "I'm not going to answer your question". IP 98, however, seems to be under the impression that Misplaced Pages or its policies need to be applied consistently. Unfortunately, that is not the case, so perhaps pointing out that article does do some good, even if it avoids the underlying points of the discussion. A more fruitful way of addressing this would be to state why you do or don't think those other people should have articles and, if you think that they should, what differences in those other subjects and Knox would lead you to the belief that they deserve their article and Knox doesn't. Of course, this is a tiring task (especially if you don't even know those other people) that requires some research and contemplative analysis. That's a tall order when, as we've pointed out a bunch of times, even if we convince a couple of people here, we'd still have to engage in a more formal process of getting consensus on to change on this subject on the request for deletion board (whatever it's called).LedRush (talk) 23:35, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
- This is not a question of arguing "other stuff exists, so this should too". No, the issue at hand here is that by virtue of their existance, those other articles (and more like them) boldly proclaim that large numbers of editors at this wiki have reached a consensus regarding articles of that type, which is: There's no proper justification to exclude them; for if there were, those articles would not exist. In other words, the existance of those articles indicates there are many more editors (and thus a much larger consensus) agreeing that the article type being sought for Amanda Knox is definately permissible. That being the case, the only question remaining is; why do Pablo (and those aligned with him) seek to block an Amanda Knox article? The larger consensus of the wiki, as evidenced by many, many articles is that those seeking to create an Amanda Knox article are in fact correctly interpreting the wiki guidelines - and those opposed are not. That's how I see it. 98.118.62.140 (talk) 23:52, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
Pronunciation of "Guede"?
I live in Portugal & have never heard the name pronounced. The Simple English version has 'Goo-yay-da', which is not convincing. I have seen it spelt 'Guédé' ('Gayday') in a French context, and long ago introduced that spelling here, but it soon got reverted. Rothorpe (talk) 19:34, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
- I think it's just a matter of what spelling is used in the majority of sources, Rothorpe. --FormerIP (talk) 19:50, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
It was pointed out that 'Guédé' for every occurrence would hinder searching, so it was cut down to just one exemplary '(Guédé)', which has since vanished. But I'm asking about the pronunciation: the article should give it. Any idea? Rothorpe (talk) 21:24, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
- In IPA, I think the most obvious pronunciation would be ɡede. ɡɛde or ɡɥede might also be possible - probably not, and I'm also not even sure I transcribed the last one correctly, but it could depend on the Ivoirian accent, which I know nothing about. Apologies that I'm not trying to make a pretend English word for it, but obviously how you pronounce that word would then vary according to your accent. --FormerIP (talk) 21:50, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
Yes, if the French acute accents are there. Which would probably mean 'Gayday' in English. And 'Gwehdeh', ɡwɛdɛ, in Italian, whether they are there or not. Rothorpe (talk) 23:19, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
- The French pronunciation would be the appropriate one for the article, though. I think "Gayday" (ɡeɪdeɪ) should be avoided for obvious reasons. --FormerIP (talk) 23:51, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
- Guede had adopted Italian nationality and had presumably adopted an Italian pronunciation of his name (though it would be good to find a reference). I'd have thought there was a good argument for including both pronunciations. Bluewave (talk) 11:54, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
- If he had adopted an Italian pronunciation he could have done that either by saying his name in the way an Italian name spelled in the same way would be pronounced or by approximating the sound of his name in an Italian accent. We have no way of knowing which it might have been, though. --FormerIP (talk) 14:44, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
- Guede had adopted Italian nationality and had presumably adopted an Italian pronunciation of his name (though it would be good to find a reference). I'd have thought there was a good argument for including both pronunciations. Bluewave (talk) 11:54, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
We are using the most common spelling in the available sources, so that's good.. We're just speculating as to pronunciation, though, it is probably pronounced differently in Italy to what it would be in Côte d'Ivoire. No reason not to include alternative pronunciations though. pablo 14:58, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
- If we add pronunciations, we should only include them where we can be reasonably confident about them. --FormerIP (talk) 15:09, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
- By the way, we ought to do the same for Sollecito, while we're about it. Bluewave (talk) 15:37, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
- I don't think there's any doubt that Sollecito has the stress on the 'e', so we could put that in. But with Guede, we can indeed only say 'probably'. Rothorpe (talk) 01:10, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
- Don't think there's any real issue over Guede either. It's ɡede, all said and done. But I also have no strong opinion either way about including pronunciations in the article.--FormerIP (talk) 01:14, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
- I don't think there's any doubt that Sollecito has the stress on the 'e', so we could put that in. But with Guede, we can indeed only say 'probably'. Rothorpe (talk) 01:10, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
The likely pronunciations:
- Pronouncing "Guede": - Many American journalists went to Perugia, talking to the neighbors, and the pronunication of "Guede" (the spelling on his photo ID card) came across as "Goo-Yay-dah" as matching the French accents for "é" in terms of the 3 syllables. Compare to the common French word "étagère" (shelf-rack), pronounced as "Ay-tah-zher" whereas "Guede" could be spelled "Guédè" (in French) to match how people said his name in Perugia. Makes sense now.
- Pronouncing "Sollecito": - The word "sollecito" is Italian for a "reminder" or momento. The "ci" is said as "chee" for words like ciao ("chee-ow" or "chow"). I've heard the accent on the "e" with pronunciation as "So-LAY-che-toe" (rather than "So-lah-CHEE-to"). Compare with the French circus "Cirque du Soleil" just as a reminder(!).
Hence, "goo-Yay-dah" and "so-LAY-che-to" (convert to IPA) are what journalists in Perugia have said. Thank you for noting this issue. -Wikid77 (talk) 06:28, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
- Except that it's not a diphthong, as in 'soleil', just a rather long 'e' sound. I should have thought to look in my Italian dictionary: basically 'prompt', it agrees; it doesn't give the noun meaning, just the adjective, but that's probably because it's 1980 vintage. Still puzzled by "goo-Yay-dah", though; "goo-WAY-duh" (ɡɥedə) would seem more likely. Rothorpe (talk) 01:11, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
Forensic evidence
I've just made some changes to this section. Much of this is just copyediting and reducing and hopefully uncontroversial. There's a couple of things I thought I should mention in talk, though.
- I left references in the article to where Guede's DNA was found at the scene, but removed references to where it wasn't. It seems to me that, now his conviction has been upheld by two appeals, there is no reason to suppose that the fact that there are parts of the flat where he didn't leave DNA is important. Also, given that his DNA was found on the victim's clothes, the rather less incriminating claim that he may have taken a dump in the toilet also seems unimportant.
- I removed reference to evidence being "Low Copy Number" and some experts finding this unreliable. Neither claim seems to be made in the sourcing provided (the phrase "Low Copy Number" is nowhere). The sourcing does seem to support an alternative claim that a group of American scientists have raised concerns that evidence may have been contaminated, so I have included this instead. Hopefully, pro-Knox people will be happy with this, since it means a clearer and better-sourced statement in Knox's favour.
- I removed the claim that unidentified DNA had been found on the victim's bra. This was presented as fact, but it is clear from the sourcing that this is speculation made by Sollecito's lawyers a year before trial, and it does not appear to be supported by the Massei report.
- I added the fact that the court has ordered a review of scientific evidence.
Cheers. --FormerIP (talk) 21:13, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
- I think the stuff about where Guede's DNA wasn't found may date back to a time when a couple of editors were trying to put stuff into the article promoting a "lone wolf" theory. As far as I recall, the theory was that Guede approached the house across the muddy garden without leaving a footprint; climbed up the wall to the bedroom window without leaving a mark on the wall; opened the wooden shutters; climbed down again without leaving marks or footprints; chucked a stone through the window; climbed up again (without...) and got through the window without disturbing the glass on the windowsill; ransacked the bedroom without leaving a trace of DNA; etc, etc. For our purposes, the improbability of this is not really the issue: of more import is the fact that the police and all the courts who have examined the evidence have thrown this theory out. So I'm assuming that this theory no longer has any legs and we need neither to expound the theory, nor to draw attention to the obvious lack of evidence to support it, which the courts highlighted. I think there were also attempts to say things like Guede's DNA was "all over the crime scene" when, in fact, only a few traces were found. Bluewave (talk) 21:43, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
The statement "Luminol revealed footprints made in blood in the flat" should be changed to "Luminol revealed footprints in the flat". The "made in blood" claim is not supported by the sources. --Footwarrior (talk) 17:23, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
The next line in the article "Knox's DNA was found mixed with Kercher's blood in the footprints and elsewhere in the apartment." also has a problem. The reference does not say anything about the mixed DNA being found in footprints. --Footwarrior (talk) 18:17, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
- "Made in blood" does appear to be supported, although it is at the top of p 372 ("...per verosimile deposizione di sostanza ematica..." = "..in all likelihood made in blood..."), so the reference should be changed to read 372-3. You are right about the Daily Beast source, though. It does support mixed blood elsewhere in the flat, but we could remove the words "in the footprints and". --FormerIP (talk) 19:17, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
- "Made in blood" needs to be qualified with words that indicate it's not absolutely certain. The article should also state where the mixed DNA samples were found. --Footwarrior (talk) 14:15, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
- Do you have a reason for wanting to specify where (eg will it significantly help the reader to understand the circumstances?). Reason I ask is that it looks to have been another flatmate's room, so WP:BLPNAME is an issue.
- On qualifying the blood reference, maybe we can add the word "probably"? --FormerIP (talk) 19:19, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
- "Made in blood" needs to be qualified with words that indicate it's not absolutely certain. The article should also state where the mixed DNA samples were found. --Footwarrior (talk) 14:15, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
- Instead of "probably" I think "most likely" would be a better a more precise attribution as luminol usually reveals blood traces.TMCk (talk) 03:29, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- BTW, I added a {{Failed verification|date=January 2011}} at the trial section here which is also related to this talk section.TMCk (talk) 03:29, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
Time of arrival of Postal Police
Disputed section was removed in whole from the article. Any future comments/suggestions should be made in a new section, preferable with a link to this closed discussion. TMCk (talk) 05:14, 5 January 2011 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Diff of removal of edit in question: . Perma-link to this discussion:
I backed out several versions to restore the defense position on the time of arrival of the postal police. The reference does indeed support the text removed from the article. --Footwarrior (talk) 15:30, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
- Please see below. Per WP:NOENG, you need to provide the original text and its translation. As previously discussed, I don't believe this source supports the wording you would like it to, but in any event you have the burden of evidence here. --FormerIP (talk) 15:40, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
- A translation was provided in the earlier discussion.--Footwarrior (talk) 15:47, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
- That's because I provided it. You still have the burden of evidence to show that it supports the wording you would like to see included. --FormerIP (talk) 16:02, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
- This text and the supporting reference were discussed at length a few months ago when this text was added. See Talk:Murder_of_Meredith_Kercher/Archive_26#Time_of_postal_police_arrival. The burden of proof was met at that time. You didn't like the decision and tried several other tactics to get it removed without success. At this point, you are simply opening up an edit war. --Footwarrior (talk) 16:30, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
- In my opinion, the article is clear in supporting a reference to the time that the postal police arrived (12:58). Whether it is a reliable source, and whether the court definitively ruled on this fact are other matters (about which I have no opinion yet)63.209.178.11 (talk) 18:16, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
- This text and the supporting reference were discussed at length a few months ago when this text was added. See Talk:Murder_of_Meredith_Kercher/Archive_26#Time_of_postal_police_arrival. The burden of proof was met at that time. You didn't like the decision and tried several other tactics to get it removed without success. At this point, you are simply opening up an edit war. --Footwarrior (talk) 16:30, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
- That's because I provided it. You still have the burden of evidence to show that it supports the wording you would like to see included. --FormerIP (talk) 16:02, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
- A translation was provided in the earlier discussion.--Footwarrior (talk) 15:47, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
The relevant sentence in the source is: "Solo durante il processo in corso la difesa di Raffaele riesce a dimostrare inequivocabilmente che quell'orologio registra, si, un orario sbagliato, ma di piu di 10 minuti indietro e non avanti, quindi gli orari predetti vanno corretti, aggiungendo almeno 10 minuti e non sottraendo 10 minuti: la Polizia Postale arriva effettivamente sul posto non prima delle ore 12,58." Would you care to explain how, in your opinion, this can possibly be translated into English in a way that would support the text proposed? --FormerIP (talk) 19:05, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
- "la Polizia Postale arriva effettivamente sul posto non prima delle ore 12,58."63.209.178.11 (talk) 19:56, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
- Also, as a procedural matter, the text should remain until
removedconsensus is reached to remove it. This is the second time I've seen people on this board remove long-standing parts of the article and then, when an objection is raised, refused to allow it to remain as part of the article until a consensus is built to make the change. It's not only against WP: policy, it's rude.63.209.178.11 (talk) 19:56, 23 December 2010 (UTC)- That's not a correct description of WP procedure, 63.209.178.11. (Although, you have to admit, the text did remain until it was removed ;)).
- Why do you think we should focus on the phrase "la Polizia Postale arriva effettivamente sul posto non prima delle ore 12,58" and not on the phrase "Il loro reale arrivo viene ripreso dalla videocamera alle ore 12,48"? It's 12:48 that "evidence from a security camera showed", according to the article. --FormerIP (talk) 20:08, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
- The reason is simple. The statement regarding 12:58 is the statement by the paper of the actual time, while the statement regarding the 12:48 statement is a fact that led to the conclusion that the actual time was 12.58. This seems noncontroversial to me (at least regarding the intent of the article).63.209.178.11 (talk) 20:37, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
- It is indeed correct procedure for 2 reasons. Firstly, and generally, you would be bold and change something. If there is disagreement, the change should be reverted and the edit discussed. This is the foundation of WP editing. While things get more complex in a BLP, none of those concern apply here, or in the earlier case. Even you said: "In terms of following procedure, the thing to look at is WP:BRD." That article clearly indicates the process I summarize above.63.209.178.11 (talk) 20:21, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
- Secondly, this language was the result of a long negotiation, which has been linked above. Consensus can change over time, but one or two editors shouldn't change it willy-nilly without the matter being discussed again. Otherwise, what was the point of going through the extended time to reach the last consensus?63.209.178.11 (talk) 20:17, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
- No consensus was reached last time round, 63.209.178.11. The page was fully-protected with Footwarrior's version in place. I'd be more interested in hearing your arguments concerning the source, though. --FormerIP (talk) 20:21, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
- I guess I was reading the last discussions incorrectly. I saw a long disagreement about this, and that the end result was that the language stayed. Was there an edit war on this issue which led to the article being protected? Why did the language remain for so long after the article was unprotected?63.209.178.11 (talk) 20:27, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
- It was locked for a long time and, to be honest, I only just noticed that the phrase was still there. On the general issue of whether it should be in or out for now, see Misplaced Pages:BLP#Restoring_deleted_content. Do you have anything to say about the source, though? --FormerIP (talk) 20:54, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
- Well, this isn't a BLP (though, admittedly, there are BLP considerations here) and there are no "good faith BLP objections". The disputed content has nothing to do with Kercher's biographical information. It is merely a dispute on the inclusion of a specific fact...a fact which doesn't appear to be in dispute. Does anyone currently claim that what this article states is fact is actually incorrect? (see my response to the source comments above...I'm trying to keep procedural discussions separate from content ones).63.209.178.11 (talk) 21:04, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
- I'd rather keep the discussion in chronological order if it's okay.
- You should probably familiarise yourself with policy before trying to argue based on it. BLP does not just apply to articles which are biographies. It applies wherever there is information relating to living people. In this case the question is about what time it was when two living people did a certain thing. The BLP concern is actually quite significant, because if the time actually was 12:58, it would mean that a group of identifiable Italian police officers must have conspired to fabricate evidence and then lied under oath.
- The journalist in this source is writing for a tiny Italian freesheet distributed in Sollecito's home town. He offers 12:58 as a speculation. His reason for this is the possibility that the CCTV clock was ten minutes slow. He seems to be offering this as a possibility because of the existence of evidence that it was ten minutes fast. He's saying: "if it was ten minutes fast, it could just as easily have been ten minutes slow, which would make the time 12:58". That's obviously a weak argument, since the point is that there is no reason to suppose it might have been slow. Regardless of that though, the point is that it's just speculation in a non-notable press article.
- I don't see why this needs explaining - it's all there in plain Italian. --FormerIP (talk) 21:36, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
- IP 63.209... here. I have remained civil and I would appreciate it if you did as well. It does not help your argument to insult me or to be condescending. I understand the BLP policy very well. I had already conceded that there are BLP concerns in this article, so your explanation is not helpful. Especially as you have no reason to believe that this specific fact brings up a BLP concern. We have a newspaper which stated as fact something that corroborates what the person stated was a fact. Can you point me to any sources which were dated after this article which back up a differing point of view? Your speculation about what the meaning of a 12:58 time means is implausible rather irrelevant to this conversation.
- Also, I have not stated an opinion on whether this is a reliable source, so I don't know why you're arguing this as if it hurts what I'm saying.
- On the Italian, I'm just shocked that you are making this argument. Maybe the newspaper is wrong. Maybe it is biased. Maybe it makes ridiculous speculation. But it says that the 12:58 time is the earliest possible correct one.LedRush (talk) 03:49, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
- Oddly enough, if you (meaning FormerIP had actually followed WP procedure and acted civilly, we'd probably have moved on from this topic and actually discussed the quality of the citation and the source. I have not looked into this much, but I strongly suspect that the paper is not a RS. Footwarrior, do you have any evidence that the source is a reliable one?LedRush (talk) 04:04, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
- I don't think I've been uncivil, LedRush. Posing as a newbie may be questionable, but I'll let it pass. I think you're arguing on the basis of policy you don't appear to understand and a source written in a language you don't appear to understand.
- The implication of the 12:58 time is that police officers lied under oath. That is a serious BLP concern. I invite you to self-revert.
- What you're not understanding is what the source actually says. It says three things that appear to be relevant here. (1) The time on the footage was 12:48; (2) the police received information that the clock on camera was ten minutes fast (ie the time was actually 12:38); (3) perhaps Sollecito's lawyers will be able to argue that it was ten minutes slow (ie the time was actually 12:58). Sollecito's lawyers don't appear to have made such an argument (at least we have no evidence that they did) and if they did it doesn't appear to have been successful.
- This is clearly not a good source for "evidence from a security camera showed that the police arrived at 12:58 pm, just as Sollecito said they did". It doesn't say that the evidence from a security camera shows this and it doesn't say anything about anything said by Sollecito. If it were an RS, it would be a good source for something like "A local journalist from Sollecito's hometown speculated that Sollecito's lawyers might be able to argue that the police arrived at the flat at 12:58 (but in the end they didn't)." --FormerIP (talk) 04:23, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
- You were insulting and condescending to me regarding my knowledge of WP policy (and about my arguments). You've gone further to accuse me of some kind of deception, which I obviously have not committed. I stated that I was new to this article/subject, but I am obviously not new to WP, nor have I ever indicated otherwise.
- I think understand what you're saying about the Italian article. They are taking some information that they found and reaching a conclusion themselves. However, that seems almost like you are projecting WP standards on them. They make a definitive statement that the police could not have come before 12:58. I don't know if they are right or not, but that's what it says. If no one else agrees with it, why don't you just get another source dated after this article that says otherwise? Or stick with the RS issues, which seems like a winner to me. However, I would want to hear what footwarrior says to that before I crystalize my opinion.LedRush (talk) 04:58, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
- Sorry if you feel I've been insulting and condescending. You appear to have reverted my edit in advance of understanding why the edit has been made, though, which doesn't seem very reasonable to me.
- I'm not sure what you mean by "projecting WP standards" on them. Is that not what we are supposed to do? The source doesn't make a definitive statement at all. It speculates that something might be provable. It doesn't even go as far as "taking some information that they found and reaching a conclusion themselves". They appear to reach the conclusion merely on the grounds that anything is possible. That is not grounds for us to state it as fact. It is particularly not grounds for us to say "evidence from a security camera showed..." when the source explicitly states that it showed something else entirely. --FormerIP (talk) 05:12, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
- The source is a local newspaper that publishes regularly and has a editorial board. It meets the WP:RS guidelines for such sources. I notice that the text "just as Sollecito said they did" was changed, but the new text implies Sollecito gave an exact time for the postal police arrival. Something like "after the 112 call" would be more appropriate. --Footwarrior (talk) 05:20, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
- I have reverted the edit because WP policy is to keep an established edit until consensus is reached on the talk page. I have explained this clearly above. Also, just because I don't agree with your edit doesn't mean that I don't understand it. Also, if people make edits that which are bad, are we to keep them because we don't understand what motivated such a bad edit? Simple decency, and WP policy, dictates not changing long established language until discussion has been had.LedRush (talk) 05:54, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
- My reading of Italian is not good enough to comment in detail on the meaning of the source, but I don't see how it can support the claim that "evidence from a security camera showed that the police arrived at 12:58 pm, just as Sollecito said they did" when it actually says that the time on the camera was 12:48. This source was once referred to the Reliable Sources noticeboard for comment. Did anything come of that? Bluewave (talk) 10:38, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
- I have reverted the edit because WP policy is to keep an established edit until consensus is reached on the talk page. I have explained this clearly above. Also, just because I don't agree with your edit doesn't mean that I don't understand it. Also, if people make edits that which are bad, are we to keep them because we don't understand what motivated such a bad edit? Simple decency, and WP policy, dictates not changing long established language until discussion has been had.LedRush (talk) 05:54, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
- Oddly enough, if you (meaning FormerIP had actually followed WP procedure and acted civilly, we'd probably have moved on from this topic and actually discussed the quality of the citation and the source. I have not looked into this much, but I strongly suspect that the paper is not a RS. Footwarrior, do you have any evidence that the source is a reliable one?LedRush (talk) 04:04, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
- Well, this isn't a BLP (though, admittedly, there are BLP considerations here) and there are no "good faith BLP objections". The disputed content has nothing to do with Kercher's biographical information. It is merely a dispute on the inclusion of a specific fact...a fact which doesn't appear to be in dispute. Does anyone currently claim that what this article states is fact is actually incorrect? (see my response to the source comments above...I'm trying to keep procedural discussions separate from content ones).63.209.178.11 (talk) 21:04, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
- It was locked for a long time and, to be honest, I only just noticed that the phrase was still there. On the general issue of whether it should be in or out for now, see Misplaced Pages:BLP#Restoring_deleted_content. Do you have anything to say about the source, though? --FormerIP (talk) 20:54, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
- I guess I was reading the last discussions incorrectly. I saw a long disagreement about this, and that the end result was that the language stayed. Was there an edit war on this issue which led to the article being protected? Why did the language remain for so long after the article was unprotected?63.209.178.11 (talk) 20:27, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
- No consensus was reached last time round, 63.209.178.11. The page was fully-protected with Footwarrior's version in place. I'd be more interested in hearing your arguments concerning the source, though. --FormerIP (talk) 20:21, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
- That makes perfect sense to me. You'd think that on a point like this there would be more definitive statements. Perhaps we could include something like this: "There are conflicting reports concerning whether Sollicito called the postal police before or after they arrived at Kercher's apartment. Some sources, like La Piazza claim that a review of the evidence indicates that Sollicito made the phone call before the police arrived, while other sources, like the Micheli report, conclude that the call was made after they arrived."LedRush (talk) 13:33, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
- The Mecheli report was written before this evidence was presented by Sollecito's defense. The Massei report makes a rather odd comment "he arrived with Assistant Marzi at a little after 12:30 pm, or so it seemed to the two policemen", that indicates the judge didn't really accept their stated time of arrival (see pg. 27 of PMF translation). Solleceto's lawyers used cell phone records to prove the camera clock is 10 minutes slow. The postal police are seen arriving at 12:48 camera time, hence they arrived at 12:58 real time. Other sources for this information exist, including the slideshow used in court, but they are not suitable for a Misplaced Pages reference. --Footwarrior (talk) 15:15, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
- Why would it not be suitable? We are not a trier of fact, here. We merely report what reliable sources say in as neutral a manner as possible. Surely if there has been a later and definitive answer to this question, we should be able to get a RS for it, no?LedRush (talk) 15:22, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
- Did Sollecito's lawyers indeed prove that the camera clock is 10 minutes slow? I know they tried to prove that, but I've not seen a source that says their evidence was convincing or that it was accepted by the court. Bluewave (talk) 15:27, 24 December 2010 (UTC) Also, Footwarrior, are you suggesting that, when Massei says that they arrived "at a little after 12:30 pm", he meant 12.58 pm? Bluewave (talk) 15:38, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
- Again, we are not triers of fact, so it wouldn't really matter if the court didn't make a definitive ruling on that (of course, if they did we could include such a ruling). If the Italian paper was a RS, we can include that. If there is a RS for (or a direct cite to) the Massei report, we can include that, too.LedRush (talk) 15:57, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
- The article text gives the arguments on both sides, not which argument was accepted by the court. As for other sources, the problem is finding one that meets the WP:RS criteria. (Self published blogs don't count, but strangely enough if the blogger writes a book it does.) Few publications covered the defense case in this trial. This newspaper from Solliceto's home town and the Italian newsmagazine Oggi seem to be the exceptions. --Footwarrior (talk) 16:08, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
- I don't agree that the present text gives the arguments on both sides. It starts with "the police officers testified that they had arrived at 12:35 pm, before Sollecito called 112" but "evidence from a security camera showed that the police arrived at 12:58 pm, just as Sollecito said they did". The current wording surely implies that the evidence about the security camera is fact and the evidence of the police officers isn't. The part that says "just as Sollecito said they did" is simply making a point and is not supported by the sources. I don't believe Sollecito has ever stated a time at which the police arrived. By saying that the evidence "showed that", we are implying that the evidence was accepted as fact. You could equally, rephrase the whole thing as "the defence produced evidence from a security camera in an attempt to show that the police arrived at 12:58 pm. However, the the police officers staunchly testified that they had arrived at 12:35 pm, before Sollecito called 112". I think both this version and the current text are inappropriate because they clearly imply that either defence or prosecution won the point. And we have not found a source that supports that. Bluewave (talk) 16:45, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
- I agree, Bluewave (pending new sources). What do you think of the general thrust of my suggestion?LedRush (talk) 18:01, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
- Yes I agree that, if we have conflicting sources, we should reflect both points of view in the article. I'm not entirely happy with using the Italian paper and the Micheli report as the two quoted sources in the way that you suggest, though. A minor provincial newspaper written after the defence case was known versus an official court report written before it was known are a bit chalk and cheese. But yes I broadly agree with what you're suggesting. I'd be interested to get FormerIP's view too, seeing as he clearly has strong views on this subject. Bluewave (talk) 18:16, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
- I agree, Bluewave (pending new sources). What do you think of the general thrust of my suggestion?LedRush (talk) 18:01, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
- I don't agree that the present text gives the arguments on both sides. It starts with "the police officers testified that they had arrived at 12:35 pm, before Sollecito called 112" but "evidence from a security camera showed that the police arrived at 12:58 pm, just as Sollecito said they did". The current wording surely implies that the evidence about the security camera is fact and the evidence of the police officers isn't. The part that says "just as Sollecito said they did" is simply making a point and is not supported by the sources. I don't believe Sollecito has ever stated a time at which the police arrived. By saying that the evidence "showed that", we are implying that the evidence was accepted as fact. You could equally, rephrase the whole thing as "the defence produced evidence from a security camera in an attempt to show that the police arrived at 12:58 pm. However, the the police officers staunchly testified that they had arrived at 12:35 pm, before Sollecito called 112". I think both this version and the current text are inappropriate because they clearly imply that either defence or prosecution won the point. And we have not found a source that supports that. Bluewave (talk) 16:45, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
- Did Sollecito's lawyers indeed prove that the camera clock is 10 minutes slow? I know they tried to prove that, but I've not seen a source that says their evidence was convincing or that it was accepted by the court. Bluewave (talk) 15:27, 24 December 2010 (UTC) Also, Footwarrior, are you suggesting that, when Massei says that they arrived "at a little after 12:30 pm", he meant 12.58 pm? Bluewave (talk) 15:38, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
- Why would it not be suitable? We are not a trier of fact, here. We merely report what reliable sources say in as neutral a manner as possible. Surely if there has been a later and definitive answer to this question, we should be able to get a RS for it, no?LedRush (talk) 15:22, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
- The Mecheli report was written before this evidence was presented by Sollecito's defense. The Massei report makes a rather odd comment "he arrived with Assistant Marzi at a little after 12:30 pm, or so it seemed to the two policemen", that indicates the judge didn't really accept their stated time of arrival (see pg. 27 of PMF translation). Solleceto's lawyers used cell phone records to prove the camera clock is 10 minutes slow. The postal police are seen arriving at 12:48 camera time, hence they arrived at 12:58 real time. Other sources for this information exist, including the slideshow used in court, but they are not suitable for a Misplaced Pages reference. --Footwarrior (talk) 15:15, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
- I would try to include text about the officers stopping to ask directions, because the cottage had an address as being on street "Via della Pergola" but is phyically located on "Via San Antonio" or such, to help readers understand why the arrival time might be longer than a quick trip across Perugia. "God is in the details" of this case, to help people understand what the sources state happened that weekend, after Meredith and Amanda had phoned each other about their Halloween costumes. Remember: "Misplaced Pages is not paper" - there is space to add more details to help readers understand. -Wikid77 (talk) 01:10, 25 December 2010 (UTC)
- Do you have a source that shows that the officers did stop to ask for directions? Even if they did, how is this relevant? It will not change the time recorded on the CCTV footage or the logged time of the 112 call. pablo 07:21, 25 December 2010 (UTC)
This ought not to be difficult. We do have reliable sources that say: a) the Micheli report concluded that the police arrived at the flat at about 12.35, agreeing with their testimony (Micheli report); b) CCTV footage showing the time of arrival was timestamped 12:48 (P di G); c) trial evidence showed that the time on the CCTV was about ten minutes fast (P di G); d) a minor journalist from Sollecito's home town wondered if it might be possible to show that the CCTV clock was actually ten minutes slow. We do not have reliable sources that say a) that evidence from a security camera showed the time to be 12:58; b) that Raffael Sollecito ever claimed that the time was 12:58; c) that anybody other than a minor journalist from Sollecito's home town has ever raised the possibility that the time might have been 12:58. Our article currently reflects only the facts from the do not list. Therefore, we need to change it so that it reflects facts from the do list. --FormerIP (talk) 03:14, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
- The Micheli report is from the trial of Rudy Guede, not the trial of Knox and Sollecito. The legal case for the later two defendants was presented in a separate trail. That case included a refutation of the claim that Sollecito calledl the Italian emergency number after the arrival of the Postal Police. The details of that argument are explained in an Italian newspaper (the reference for text recently removed by FormerIP), and a pdf of the presentation used in court can be found at . A security camera recorded the arrival of the Postal Police and the later arrival of the Carabinieri. The Carabinieri had trouble finding the cottage and called Knox's cell phone. She turned her phone over to one of the Postal Police officers who talked them in. That call ended when the Carabinieri arrived. Comparing the phone records for that call with the arrival time shown by the security camera proves the camera clock is ten minutes fast, not ten minutes show. Therefore the Postal Police arrived at 12:58. The Massei report page 15 (pg. 27 of PMF translation) states "These then are the preceding facts and the reason for the presence at the house at 7 Via della Pergola shortly before 1:00 pm on November 2, 2009 of the Postal Police team consisting of Inspector Michele Battistelli and Assistant Fabio Marzi." A bit later on that same page "he arrived with Assistant Marzi at a little after 12:30 pm, or so it seemed to the two policemen." indicates the court didn't accept the policeman's timing. What we don't find in the Massei report is any statement that the call to 112 happened after the arrival of the Postal Police. --Footwarrior (talk) 05:03, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
- None of which explains why the article ought to contain claims which are not contained in any reliable source. --FormerIP (talk) 18:57, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
- I restored the statement and the source, rewording it for clarity and NPOV. Rejecting your contention that the Italian newspaper is not a WP:RS. When you brought this issue up on the Reliable Sources noticeboard back in September, it failed to gather any support for your contention that this newspaper was not a reliable source. --Footwarrior (talk) 20:09, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
- None of which explains why the article ought to contain claims which are not contained in any reliable source. --FormerIP (talk) 18:57, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, but not only that, but the specifics of the new proposal "The defence also presented evidence from a security camera and cell phone records indicating the police arrived at 12:58, after the call to 112" are explicitly contradicted by the source given. The source explicitly states that the evidence in question was presented by the prosecution, not the defence; there is no mention of phone records; it is explicitly that the evidence that is talked about indicated a time of 12:48 or 12:38 taking into account other evidence. There is no mention of it indicating 12:58, only a possibility that this might be proven in some unspecified way at some point in the future.
- I've created a new section here Misplaced Pages:NOR/N#Murder_of_Meredith_Kercher, which I fully expect to be bombarded by SPAs at any moment. --FormerIP (talk) 23:14, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
- Yet again, WP rewards an edit warring by locking an article after an editor made edits against WP policy and against common courtesy.LedRush (talk) 12:23, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
Is there any objection to removing the entire paragraph starting with "At trial, the police officers stated"? --Footwarrior (talk) 16:55, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
- Good call. No, I wouldn't object to that if no-one else does. --FormerIP (talk) 20:38, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
- I'd agree with that too. I think the only reason to include the arrival time of the postal police is if it indicates that Sollecito definitely called 112 either before or after their arrival. From the sources, I don't think we can say with certainty whether it was before or after. So this ceases to be notable. Bluewave (talk) 08:43, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
- If there are no objections to this, shall I make the change? I could also unprotect the article then, as this is the locus of the dispute. Black Kite (t) (c) 08:45, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
- Go ahead and make the edit. Page protection will expire in a couple of days.
- If there are no objections to this, shall I make the change? I could also unprotect the article then, as this is the locus of the dispute. Black Kite (t) (c) 08:45, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
- I'd agree with that too. I think the only reason to include the arrival time of the postal police is if it indicates that Sollecito definitely called 112 either before or after their arrival. From the sources, I don't think we can say with certainty whether it was before or after. So this ceases to be notable. Bluewave (talk) 08:43, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
In section "Events surrounding the murder" remove the entire paragraph starting with "At trial, the police officers stated" --Footwarrior (talk) 14:16, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.Events surrounding the murder
I've gone through this section as I did above with another section. Mostly uncontroversial copyediting, but once again there are couple of things worthy of flagging:
- I removed discussion of the admissability of statements made to police by Knox. Think the info was probably more-or-less correct, but it was not well sourced - only a reference to a court document in Italian was given, which clearly can't have contained the whole story. Secondary sourced are needed for this.
- I removed reference to CCTC showing a time of 11:58. This is not supported by the source given. Footwarrior: since this source is in Italian, the onus is on you to show that the wording in it does support the wording you wish to see inserted, per WP:NOENG.
- Changed references to "phones carried by Kercher" to "Kercher's phones". But maybe they were not hers (?).
--FormerIP (talk) 15:38, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
- One of the phones belonged to Kercher, the other to an Italian flatmate. The wording "phones carried by Kercher" was chosen to avoid unnecessary detail and still be technically correct. --Footwarrior (talk) 15:52, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
- Checking this section again, I noticed that the referenced source doesn't support the claim of a flatmate returning around 1 PM or her saying nothing had been stolen. --Footwarrior (talk) 16:49, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
- Okay, I've amended that sentence. --FormerIP (talk) 19:26, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
Names of supporting personnel
26-Dec-2010: Now that the appeal trial is underway, we are again hearing about the supporting personnel, and witnesses such as homeless Antonio C. who is to be re-questioned about which days he saw what. This re-opens the issue of naming the supporting personnel in articles:
- Form 1a: Refer to a John Smith with last initial as "John S."
- Form 2a: Refer to a John Smith with first initial, "J. Smith".
Which should be used? Now that Sollecito's attorneys have re-examined his computer, they reported new evidence to show he was active on his computer for more hours than the prosecution claimed in the original trial (German source: "Prozess gegen Amanda Knox" , by Andrea Bachstein, Perugia, 2010-11-25, URL: SuedDeut-83) (Template:Pv German text: "Sollecitos Anwalt Luca Maori sagte nach dem Termin ..., er verspreche sich viel von der neuen Analyse des Computers von Sollecito. An ihm will der Student zur fraglichen Zeit gesessen haben."). So, we might have to identify an expert who concluded Sollecito (the Student) was home during the time. These names are needed due to the concerns of WP:WEASEL in tagging the text as "" where we can't just say that "some computer expert" concluded Sollecito was active on his computer after re-examining the data, or "some housekeeper" said there was no smell of bleach at Sollecito's home even though a small cap-full of bleach would have made the entire place reek of chlorine. There have been multiple experts and multiple housekeepers. I realize that particular editors want to remove all the supporting names from the article, but that is contrary to Misplaced Pages policy. Hence, we need to determine how these names will appear, as the appeal trial is about to explode with new revelations about the evidence, and very likely will change the whole idea of how the murder occurred. -Wikid77 (talk) 21:34, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
- If any of the witnesses' evidence turns out to be so revelatory that it needs to be included in the article, then this issue can be looked at then. I don't think there's much point having a long discussion about something that may never be needed. Black Kite (t) (c) 23:55, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
- I'd certainly vote for trying to avoid naming the incidental people, if at all possible. This is the usual practice in Misplaced Pages. I think the worries about weasel words may turn out not really to be a concern. It would be an example of weasel words to say "many computer experts believe that..." but it is not a problem to say "a computer expert testified in court that..." (provided we can give a citation that a computer expert did indeed do this). Naming the expert in question doesn't really add anything, unless the computer expert was sufficiently well-known for this to be important. If it was a matter of "Bill Gates testified in court that....", we'd probably name him! So, as Black Kite recommends, lets leave this until the problem really arises but, in the mean time, please, let's try and avoid having to name incidental people. Bluewave (talk) 09:15, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
- I don't see how naming the witnesses helps the article, unless the identity of the person somehow informs our opinion of the facts. LedRush (talk) 23:16, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
- Wikid77, this is another "solution" looking for a problem. pablo 23:31, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
- I'd certainly vote for trying to avoid naming the incidental people, if at all possible. This is the usual practice in Misplaced Pages. I think the worries about weasel words may turn out not really to be a concern. It would be an example of weasel words to say "many computer experts believe that..." but it is not a problem to say "a computer expert testified in court that..." (provided we can give a citation that a computer expert did indeed do this). Naming the expert in question doesn't really add anything, unless the computer expert was sufficiently well-known for this to be important. If it was a matter of "Bill Gates testified in court that....", we'd probably name him! So, as Black Kite recommends, lets leave this until the problem really arises but, in the mean time, please, let's try and avoid having to name incidental people. Bluewave (talk) 09:15, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
Some suggestions
I'm unhappy about the current state of this article. It gives Amanda Knox too little weight compared to how well-known she is. It's easy to argue that Amanda Knox is way more well-known than the murder victim, most coverage has focused on Knox. Her fate is currently being turned into a film titled The Amanda Knox Story starring Hayden Panettiere as Knox. Knox probably warrants her own article. Cawalt (talk) 00:30, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
I notice that Knox' date of birth isn't even included. She is arguably a major subject of this article and probably should have her own biography. She was born on July 9, 1987 in Seattle. Cawalt (talk) 00:38, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
- Perhaps, as a new user, you need to read the section further up the page titled "Amanda Knox". All the best, Black Kite (t) (c) 00:42, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
Thanks for pointing this out. Cawalt (talk) 01:06, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
- Cawalt, you are 100% correct. While you may want to look at the discussions above, don't let people bully you into believing that the current status of the article (or lack thereof) cannot change.LedRush (talk) 14:57, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
- Cawalt, that film is no longer known as
The Amanda Knox Story, it has been retitled to Via Della Rosa, and is being billed as "...Based on the events surrounding the murder of British student Meredith Kercher...". While Knox certainly will be a character, it is no longer likely that just her fate and her fate alone that will be the focus of the film. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1783413/ Jonathan (talk) 16:18, 30 December 2010 (UTC)- Which, of course, changes no part of the underlying argument.LedRush (talk) 15:04, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
- Cawalt, that film is no longer known as
- I beg to differ and second Jonathancjudd's comment as the movie's title change might be an indication of shifting the focus to Kercher and the case surrounding here. Anyhow, we won't know for sure either way until it's been released and therefore should not jump premature to any kind of conclusions either way for what is still in the future and thus a dead horse for now.TMCk (talk) 00:33, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- Alas, that doesn't change the underlying argument at all. It merely changes the status of one of the dozens of pieces of supporting evidence from "apparent on its face" to "we'll have to wait and see to be sure, but almost definitely still supporting evidence". Even if the movie got cancelled, the underlying argument remains, but one piece of supporting evidence would be missing.LedRush (talk) 13:17, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- I beg to differ and second Jonathancjudd's comment as the movie's title change might be an indication of shifting the focus to Kercher and the case surrounding here. Anyhow, we won't know for sure either way until it's been released and therefore should not jump premature to any kind of conclusions either way for what is still in the future and thus a dead horse for now.TMCk (talk) 00:33, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
Protected
Just to stop any incipient edit-war, I think that was enough reverts. Please discuss the issue of the disputed source at the talk page and/or the RSN page. Thanks, Black Kite (t) (c) 01:29, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, your actions have rewarded FormerIP for engaging in an edit war despite repeated warnings.LedRush (talk) 12:32, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
- It takes two (or more) to edit war. Also - I protected the wrong version? Surely not. Black Kite (t) (c) 17:51, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
- I don't thing being rude makes you any less wrong.LedRush (talk) 04:42, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
- Well, I'm not wrong - and I'm not being rude either. I'm pointing out - hopefully in a humourous manner - that protecting a page is always unacceptable to ... someone. I could've waited until you'd reverted again, and then had FormerIP complain that I was helping you edit war. There is very rarely a Right Version in an edit war - when admins protect a page, they cannot take into account what state it is in (unless that version has seriously problematic issues, i.e. BLP violations). Incidentally, if that edit war starts again without being thrashed out on the talk pages, I will re-protect the article without a second's thought. We had reached a point a short while ago where editing was collegial here - it is now starting not to be again, and if the answer to that is protection, then so be it. Black Kite (t) (c) 12:24, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
- You were wrong because you have rewarded FormerIPs bad actions. One version (clearly not "right" - and I've never claimed it to be so) was the result of much negotiation and compromise. FormerIP has unilaterally made changes to these compromise positions. I understand that consensus changes, and not everything in the article always belongs there, but procedurally, especially with such a contentious article, it is better to discuss the changes first and then to make the changes (or, make the changes boldly, and then, after reversion, try to address the criticisms through the talk page or through subsequent revisions in a less contentious article). Your humor is rude because it belittles this point and misstates my criticism of your actions.LedRush (talk) 13:22, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
- If you are talking about the section above entitled "Time of arrival of Postal Police", then it is clear there is no consensus about what that section should contain. Now I agree that FormerIP should not have responded to that alteration by edit-warring, but neither should you and Footwarrior - once your edit was reverted, you should have come back to this talkpage. Thus, your criticism is unfounded - if there was a consensus on the talkpage, then you might have a point - but there wasn't. Black Kite (t) (c) 15:28, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
- You were wrong because you have rewarded FormerIPs bad actions. One version (clearly not "right" - and I've never claimed it to be so) was the result of much negotiation and compromise. FormerIP has unilaterally made changes to these compromise positions. I understand that consensus changes, and not everything in the article always belongs there, but procedurally, especially with such a contentious article, it is better to discuss the changes first and then to make the changes (or, make the changes boldly, and then, after reversion, try to address the criticisms through the talk page or through subsequent revisions in a less contentious article). Your humor is rude because it belittles this point and misstates my criticism of your actions.LedRush (talk) 13:22, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
- Well, I'm not wrong - and I'm not being rude either. I'm pointing out - hopefully in a humourous manner - that protecting a page is always unacceptable to ... someone. I could've waited until you'd reverted again, and then had FormerIP complain that I was helping you edit war. There is very rarely a Right Version in an edit war - when admins protect a page, they cannot take into account what state it is in (unless that version has seriously problematic issues, i.e. BLP violations). Incidentally, if that edit war starts again without being thrashed out on the talk pages, I will re-protect the article without a second's thought. We had reached a point a short while ago where editing was collegial here - it is now starting not to be again, and if the answer to that is protection, then so be it. Black Kite (t) (c) 12:24, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
- I don't thing being rude makes you any less wrong.LedRush (talk) 04:42, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
- I would like to add that the actual edit in dispute supported by LedRush was still in place when the article was protected which makes it a stretch to call it "in favor of FormerIP" and I'm pleased to see that the disputed part is now gone together with the triggering one in which I was a silent proponent for. Kudos to Footwarrior for his proposal.TMCk (talk) 04:02, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
Section entitled "Defendants"
Unless this section is expanded to include other people charged but not convicted of the crimes, I think it should be renamed in line with other WP articles. I think that the term "Defendant" indicates that someone is currently on trial for doing something and that the guilt or innocence hasn't been established. While there are appeals ongoing for two people, once the initial convictions came through I feel that "Defendants" is incorrect for one person and misleading at best for the other two (in the US, the two would no longer be "defendants" but, instead, would be "appellants". Articles with this type of section (small biographical info) are entitled "Gunman" for the Amish School Shooting and "Perpetrators" (in the Virginia Tech massacre and Moors Murders. I believe that the latter designation would be better in this case. However, as I note above, two of the perpetrators are still the subject of appeals, and so perhaps another title might be best. Regardless, I don't think "Defendants" works any more.LedRush (talk) 17:11, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
- So, does silence mean acceptance, apathy, or other?LedRush (talk) 17:02, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
- I don't think I have a very strong opinion about this. Think it is complicated because we have different defendants (or whatever) at different stages and because it might be complicated translating from the Italian legal system (the current appeal is supposedly technically a retrial - in the English system that would mean that K&S are "defendants" still). "Appellants" would also not be a long-term fix, because we will have to think of something else in a few weeks when the appeal ends, whatever its outcome. "Defendants" seems okay to me - even if the three are no longer defendants, that does not mean it is wrong to call them that in an encylopaedia (eg in this article Hartlepool by-election, 2004 there is a list of candidates, even though none of the people on it are currently candidates in that election). "Perpetrators" - equally okay since they have all been convicted - but also probably not worth it if it is going to cause drama. --FormerIP (talk) 17:42, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
- Several other articles use "Perpetrator" or "Perpetrators". For right now, I think Defendants is correct, mostly because of the drama any change would cause (sad as that is to say). Has anyone looked at similar articles to see how this was handled? Ravensfire (talk) 18:05, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
- It's hard to bundle them together under a handy title as one has finished his appeals while the other two are appellants. Perhaps two subsections; 'Rudy Guede' and 'AK & RS'? Or a subsection for each of the three separately? Clumsy though, and I take the point that it is of no particular value to swap one thing for something just as bad. pablo 20:04, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
- Could we simply take out the 'defendants' heading and raise the heading level of their biographies up to the top level? Bluewave (talk) 22:53, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, that's sort of what I meant, at the end, having gone the long way round! pablo 00:19, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- Could we simply take out the 'defendants' heading and raise the heading level of their biographies up to the top level? Bluewave (talk) 22:53, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
- It's hard to bundle them together under a handy title as one has finished his appeals while the other two are appellants. Perhaps two subsections; 'Rudy Guede' and 'AK & RS'? Or a subsection for each of the three separately? Clumsy though, and I take the point that it is of no particular value to swap one thing for something just as bad. pablo 20:04, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
- Just like FormerIP laid out above I think "defendants" is the most neutral description/section title which can be applied to all defendants in this case. In repetition: Guede, one of the defendants, was convicted and has no appeal left unless some major new development would place doubt in his conviction; Yet he can by FormerIP's argument still be called a "defendant". The other two convicted fellows, and there is no doubt about it, are still defendants and their conviction under appeal and no matter the outcome they will remain defendants even if acquitted. I personally see a change to perpetrator (at least in this case) as a POV-term that clearly can be avoided w/o compromising accuracy. Quite the opposite if one would ask me. Condensing my point: Leaving it as is would most likely avoid more problems for a minor issue than it would resolve.TMCk (talk) 02:07, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- PS: As a reminder, section titles should be as neutral (NPOV) as possible.TMCk (talk) 02:48, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- Just like FormerIP laid out above I think "defendants" is the most neutral description/section title which can be applied to all defendants in this case. In repetition: Guede, one of the defendants, was convicted and has no appeal left unless some major new development would place doubt in his conviction; Yet he can by FormerIP's argument still be called a "defendant". The other two convicted fellows, and there is no doubt about it, are still defendants and their conviction under appeal and no matter the outcome they will remain defendants even if acquitted. I personally see a change to perpetrator (at least in this case) as a POV-term that clearly can be avoided w/o compromising accuracy. Quite the opposite if one would ask me. Condensing my point: Leaving it as is would most likely avoid more problems for a minor issue than it would resolve.TMCk (talk) 02:07, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- @Bluewave. Not sure what you mean by "Could we simply take out the 'defendants' heading and raise the heading level of their biographies up to the top level?" Can you clarify for me, the one who seems to have lost you there? Although I have a clue about what you meant it doesn't seem to make sense to me. Maybe I'm just looking at it in the wrong way.TMCk (talk)
- Hi TMCk, and good to see you back here again! The word 'defendants' only appears in 2 places in the article. One is about Guede's appeal, describing a time when the legal status of all three was indeed defendants, so that looks OK. The other is a section heading which covers the short biographies of Guede, Knox and Sollecito. My thought (which may not have been fully thought through) was to remove that single-word heading and to make each of the biographies a section in its own right. Currently the contents listing shows: "2 Defendants; 2.1 Rudy Guede; 2.2 Amanda Knox; 2.3 Raffaele Sollecito". With my suggestion, that would become: "2 Rudy Guede; 3 Amanda Knox; 4 Raffaele Sollecito". I don't have any strong views about it but it would be a simple way of removing the label 'defendants'. Generally, I'd be in favour of trying to avoid words which label people: 'perpetrators' etc. Such words involve us in making judgments about people, which is not our job. So why not just take out the one-word heading? Bluewave (talk) 08:53, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- @Bluewave. Not sure what you mean by "Could we simply take out the 'defendants' heading and raise the heading level of their biographies up to the top level?" Can you clarify for me, the one who seems to have lost you there? Although I have a clue about what you meant it doesn't seem to make sense to me. Maybe I'm just looking at it in the wrong way.TMCk (talk)
- Thank you for your response Bluewave. Your approach goes much further than I'd thought, might be somehow feasible (?) and if so would have my full blessings (not that the latter is of any importance of course) but I sure like the thought of avoiding any qualifier/labels . Yet, how do you think it could be applied w/o any subheading? I don't think it would work w/o any at all so we would need to come up with one that doesn't label and yet is a qualifier that fits all three defendants. We have "1.Meredith Kercher" (which is clear from the title that she is the victim) but we can't just go on with "2. Rudi Guede, 3. Amanda Knox and 4. Raffaele Sollesito" as it would be very confusing for any reader not somehow familiar with the case. We're beyond of "accused" or "alleged" and before posting this I was thinking a lot about a sensical replacement but nothing popped into my mind. Any idea from your side?TMCk (talk) 10:22, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- Some scattered thoughts: 1. Other articles use the term "perpetrators" without NPOV concerns. 2. When we describe the past trials, "Defendants" is fine. However, it is inaccurate for all 3 right now (totally wrong for Guede and merely technically wrong for the other 2). 3. It's not that big of a deal (meaning, I don't have super strong feelings about this even if we get it "wrong").
- If it would be too confusing to remove the label altogether, how about "Convicted Parties" or "Involved Parties"? The latter could open the section to a brief description of Lumumba (though that could be a bad pairing).LedRush (talk) 13:12, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- I'm not really an expert as far as legal English goes; however, considering the three from an Italian point of view, LedRush is technically correct. Rudy Guédé, having been convicted by the Corte di Cassazione should be called condannato, because his conviction has become res judicata under Italian law, and not merely imputato (defendant). As far as
MeredithAmanda and Raffaele are concerned, instead, they're both still imputati of the crime (defendants, meaning that they're charged with a crime) and appellanti (appellants, meaning that they've appealed their conviction). There is no legal definition that can, at this time, accurately describe all of their legal statuses, in my opinion, unless we choose something more general (and less legal in nature) such as "people charged with the murder" or "people prosecuted for the murder" or something alongs those lines. Salvio 15:33, 9 January 2011 (UTC)- Salvio, your suggestion of "People charged with the murder" sounds about the best option to me. Just one correction....I think you meant 'Amanda and Raffaele', not 'Meredith and Raffaele', in the above. Cheers. Bluewave (talk) 08:33, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
- Erm, yes, that's what I meant... Thanks, I've fixed it. Salvio 13:43, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
- I am happy with either Bluewave's suggestion (separate header for each section) or Salvio's. I agree that it does need to be changed as an appellant is more of a plaintiff than a defendant pablo 09:57, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
- Salvio, your suggestion of "People charged with the murder" sounds about the best option to me. Just one correction....I think you meant 'Amanda and Raffaele', not 'Meredith and Raffaele', in the above. Cheers. Bluewave (talk) 08:33, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
- I'm not really an expert as far as legal English goes; however, considering the three from an Italian point of view, LedRush is technically correct. Rudy Guédé, having been convicted by the Corte di Cassazione should be called condannato, because his conviction has become res judicata under Italian law, and not merely imputato (defendant). As far as
- Thank you for your response Bluewave. Your approach goes much further than I'd thought, might be somehow feasible (?) and if so would have my full blessings (not that the latter is of any importance of course) but I sure like the thought of avoiding any qualifier/labels . Yet, how do you think it could be applied w/o any subheading? I don't think it would work w/o any at all so we would need to come up with one that doesn't label and yet is a qualifier that fits all three defendants. We have "1.Meredith Kercher" (which is clear from the title that she is the victim) but we can't just go on with "2. Rudi Guede, 3. Amanda Knox and 4. Raffaele Sollesito" as it would be very confusing for any reader not somehow familiar with the case. We're beyond of "accused" or "alleged" and before posting this I was thinking a lot about a sensical replacement but nothing popped into my mind. Any idea from your side?TMCk (talk) 10:22, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- Since nobody objected to my proposal, I've gone ahead and boldly changed the section header. Please, feel free to revert. Salvio 14:06, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
- That looks fine to me. Do people think we could also get rid of the infoboxes in that section. I can't see infoboxes used that way in comparable articles and they don't really add much. Because the three "People charged..." sections are brief, it's not as if users will struggle to find the key info. --FormerIP (talk) 00:27, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
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