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Russian First and Second Division
The source listed for the Russian First and Second Divisions seems to state that amateur teams can play in these leagues. Can someone who speaks Russian please confirm this or explain why the source confirms the Fully pro status of these leagues? I just wanted to make sure it wasn't a translation error before I remove them. Thanks. Sir Sputnik (talk) 17:09, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
How do you distinguish between "fully professional" and not?
I'm watching the AfD for Shawn Tellus. Right now, it seems to be hinging on whether or not the Maltese Premier League is a professional league or not. I only came across the article during huggling because someone removed templates inappropriately, as football is not my thing. But now I'm curious--what is the distinction between a fully professional league and some lower level? Are there some guidelines? Qwyrxian (talk) 13:00, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
- A fully professional league is one where all players at all clubs in the league are fully professional - i.e. they train five days a week and do not have other day jobs. There are some leagues where there is a mixture (for instance the Conference National), so players in these leagues do not meet the criteria. Tellus fails the guideline as the Maltese League is not fully professional (this source is given overleaf). Number 57 13:27, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
- Ah, that makes sense--thanks for satisfying my curiosity! Qwyrxian (talk) 14:23, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
New Providence Football League
Question for the experts: is New Providence Football League a fully professional league? My guess is no, given that it is labeled as the "highest form of football (soccer) on the island of New Providence", an island of only 330,000 people; it seems unlikely to me that a population of that size could actually support a fully professional league. I'm not worried about the league article itself, or even the articles on the teams (I'm willing to presume that there must be at least local coverage of the teams/league), but I am wondering whether merely playing in this league automatically confers a presumption of notability sufficient to pass WP:ATHLETE (specifically, an Article for Creation submission: Misplaced Pages talk:Articles for creation/Bennett Coughlin). Thanks for your help. Qwyrxian (talk) 00:33, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
- I don't have a source, but frankly if a sub-national league in the Bahamas is fully professional I will eat my sofa. BTW, as that article is a BLP with no sources whatsoever, is it eligible to be created anyway......? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:45, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
Albania?
Albania is not on neither the "professional" or the "non-professional" lists of leagues. What do we do with footballers whose only claim to fame is appearance in Albania's top level? Timbouctou (talk) 21:04, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
- In the absence of evidence suggesting it is fully professional, I think we have to assume it is not. Hence they would fail WP:ATHLETE. Number 57 21:07, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
- OK. I'm asking because I ran into several Croatian players who played in non-professional lower tiers at home before moving to Albanian top level. I assumed this was alright but then I saw this AfD. Timbouctou (talk) 21:13, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
Albania2/Proposal
Hello all, I am making this point as a continuation of the Albania paragraph above. I believe that Albania's case is the same as Macedonia's and Montenegro's. As far as I know neither is fully professional. I believe we have to change the requirements of WP:NFOOTY, because otherwise we'll have to delete hundreds of Macedonian, Montenegrin, and Albanian players.
As a matter of fact I don't find the notability for players fair at all: the Albanian, Montenegrin, and Macedonian players compete against fully professional players in European Leagues and all of them have professional contracts, but still their respective leagues are not called fully professional, because there is sometimes government intervention. I believe we have to make a change in the notability requirements, because as it is, many players' articles will have to be deleted, and much work will go to waste. Not necessarily the level of soccer in these countries is worse than that of other countries with professional leagues though. Besides, the Albanian league will soon be professional, there are some indications on that, and I can bring the sources, so those articles will have to be written all over again.
Right now one of the best hopes of Albanian soccer players Armando Vajushi, is considered for deletion, but I am sure that his article will have to be written again, as soon as he will start playing in a foreign "professional" league.
I want to know your opinions before I go ahead and make a proposal, which will consist in having NFOOTY accept fully all players of top European Leagues, given the importance of soccer in all European countries. Thank you. --Doktor Plumbi (talk) 19:29, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
- I would also add that Bosnia and Herzegovina, Latvia, and Estonia have the same problem. Still these countries have very developed soccer, whose reflection on[REDACTED] would be hindered by the wikipolicy of the "professionalism".
- In addition, the wikipolicy of "professionalism" of the league excludes from notability many players that played in the past in times where there was no professionalism required, rather, professionalism was prohibited: that's the case of Eastern Europe, but also in Western Europe. We are excluding athletes that have made the history of the sport. I am by nature an inclusionist, but I am rather interested to listen to other people's opinion. --Doktor Plumbi (talk) 20:28, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
- If memory serves, this has been proposed and rejected before. The main issue being leagues of micronations like San Marino or Andorra. Even the average player in the Albanian Superliga does not meet WP:GNG which is the purpose of WP:NSPORT, to evaluate whether a footballer is likely to meet GNG. Likewise, the qualifying rounds for the Europa and Champions Leagues (I assume this is what you mean by European Leagues) have been established as not granting notability for the same reason. The players that compete in them generally do not receive significant coverage, at least not simply for competing in these rounds. As for deleting articles that will probably become notable at some point, this is a non issue. Almost any admin will restore a previously deleted article if you can demonstrate that it has since become notable. Sir Sputnik (talk) 20:43, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
- Also may I recommend that this discussion take place WT:FOOTY so as ensure wider participation. Sir Sputnik (talk) 20:45, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
To be honest, I think its a shame how England's 5th tier can somehow be more important than Albania's top flight! People spend time and effort creating pages for players in the top leagues of the 'lesser countries' and to have all that taken away makes you wonder why you even bother. I have personally created many pages on Albanian footballers and have seen a lot of them deleted, which is a real shame and a let down from my prespective. And as for Armando Vajushi, I have been in the process of updating his page as well as I can, especially now with a lot of top teams after him, but we're only human and I have AS exams to worry about. Oltianruci (talk) 22:59, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
- I do agree to an extent with that sentiment. Although in fairness to the system, fifth-tier players tend only to get articles if they clearly meet the GNG, and a first team regular in League Two would get equivalent coverage to top division players of many smaller nations. That said, Estonian football is probably below the Welsh football pyramid and the Scottish First and Second Divisions in terms of quality and publicity, so the problem is not entirely one of UK-centrism.
- The black-and-white nature of NFOOTBALL is at least partly to blame. But the real problem is that the primary condition on which that page exists—NSPORTS serving as an advisory suppliment, not a replacement, to the GNG—is not adhered to by 90% of sports editors. Many of the deleted players probably won't meet the GNG, but several will. Nonetheless, players from non-ATHLETE leagues are frequently voted for deletion by English editors on NFOOTBALL grounds regardless of GNG arguments, and more often than not deleted by clueless vote counters. —WFC— 01:35, 21 May 2011 (UTC)
As noted above, the proposal has been made several times before, and rejected each time. We have to draw the boundary somewhere, and the line betwen fully-professional and part-time is easily the clearest we have. Relaxing the rules for some leagues but not others relies solely on opinions of which leagues are notable, rather than facts. I think something to bear in mind is (as I've said before) if football was popular enough in these countries for the non-international players to be notable, then they would probably be able to support a fully professional league (as many less wealthy countries do). Number 57 09:02, 21 May 2011 (UTC)
- PS - to Oltianruci - players in the fifth tier in England do not get articles, because the fifth tier is not fully-professional. If you see any that have only played at Conference level, then please feel free to nominate them for deletion. Number 57 09:03, 21 May 2011 (UTC)