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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Nug (talk | contribs) at 22:18, 13 June 2011 (→Request concerning Russavia: Update additional comments by editor filing complaint). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Clarification required on scope of Israel-Palestine articles

All articles in the Palestine-Israel conflict space are currently under a 1-revert per day restriction. There's an article - The Sergeants affair - that deals with events in July- August of 1947 (hanging of 2 British mandate soldiers by Irgun) which to me is obviously within the scope of the restriction. An editor has claimed that because Israel was only founded in 1948, and because the incident involves only Jews and British, that article is not subject to the restriction (and by implication, neither do any articles that deal with events prior to May 1948, or that do not involve both Arabs and Jews). I think that can't be right, but perhaps I'm mistaken, so I think some clarification is needed. I've asked an uninvolved administrator (AGK) who has been active in enforcing arbitration requests here, and he has voiced agreement with my view (see http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk%3AAGK&action=historysubmit&diff=433038275&oldid=433036853), but suggested it might be useful to ask for clarification here, as well. Red Stone Arsenal (talk) 15:47, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Please stop making up stuff about what I said.I said that Israel was not formed at the time and that the incident involved the Jews and the British no Arabs.I did not say that all articles pre 1948 were not in the scope of the arbitration.Plus maybe someone should make it clear as to what articles are actually involved in that arbitration and also put headings on those talk pages so people know.Owain the 1st (talk) 15:53, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

The article on Irgun is under WP:ARBPIA, and the The Sergeants affair is about murders committed by Irgun. See Misplaced Pages:ARBPIA#Area of conflict. "The area of conflict in this case shall be considered to be the entire set of Arab-Israeli conflict-related articles, broadly interpreted." The phrase 'broadly interpreted' is significant. I agree that this article should have an ARBPIA banner. I see that one was placed on the talk page by Red Stone Arsenal on 6 June. EdJohnston (talk) 17:05, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Owain, I think it is impractical to find all articles that would fall under these restrictions and place banners on them. How can we find them? Besides, on Misplaced Pages, new articles are created every day. Thus such a banner is only placed once someone notiices that it is due. That is my understanding; I may be wrong. Cheers. - BorisG (talk) 17:13, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

OK but maybe it would be wise to inform people that if they start a page in that area that they need to put up that notice straight away to stop confusion when other people edit it.Owain the 1st (talk) 17:29, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I agree that the article is subject to ARBPIA. I just added the edit notice. — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 17:30, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

I cannot see that you have added anything on that page.It already has the notice on the talk page Owain the 1st (talk) 17:35, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

If you open an edit window, you'll see a warning that editors are limited to one reversion per day. That's the edit notice. — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 17:37, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Ah ok, I wondered what you were on about.Owain the 1st (talk) 17:38, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

I agree that this article should fall under 1rr - generally I would suggest that in any situation involving editors known to be participating in I/P and in articles that could even tangentially be related to I/P it is much better to err on the side of caution, restraint and proper WP:DR venues. In general I would urge everyone to take to centralized discussions at WP:IPCOLL or specific noticeboards as soon as friction arises. un☯mi 17:39, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

• I have removed a discussion between User:Red Stone Arsenal and several other contributors, that concerned Red Stone's history on Misplaced Pages and whether he had previously edited from another account. Whilst such discussions are undeniably valuable, especially in a topic area that suffers from sock-puppetry as frequently as does Israel/Palestine, the tone of the discussion was uncomfortably intense, and many of the participants were being unduly persistent. It was quite embarrassing, actually. That's a person behind that username, so enough with the hounding. Discussions concerning sock-puppetry should not be raised "since we're here", but rather in an appropriate venue—which would first be the editor's talk page, and then SPI. Take it to the appropriate place, folks. AGK 22:57, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

• I have undid the restoration of the discussion. Just as administrators are authorised generally to put {{hat}}s over irrelevant discussion, so too can they remove discussion that is not on-topic, or is otherwise not productive or appropriate. We do not specify every minute eventuality in policy, because we follow the spirit, not the letter, of guidelines and other documents. Furthermore, this noticeboard is for the discussion of arbitration decisions that have an element of community enforcement. The above clarification thread relates to this process, but vague, not definitively–proven allegations of sock-puppetry do not. AGK 09:22, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

• AGK has now twice deleted comments by six different users here that are relevant to the issue of new accounts with obviously experienced users behind them in the Israel/Palestine topic area. Interested parties may view the thread as it existed before each of his consecutive deletions here and here. Perhaps the content was technically off-topic for this thread; I had believed that the severe problem it concerns would not have been thought off-topic for this board. It's my belief that his repeated deletion was improper, but I won't engage in an edit war with him to restore the content.  – OhioStandard (talk) 14:11, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

I have explained my action fully. While you may say it is incorrect, it is misleading to say it is inappropriate. If asked, I would probably say that linking to the removed comments is inappropriate on your part, but I am not going to delete the diffs. Regards, AGK 09:41, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Headbomb

Russavia

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Russavia

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

Martin (talk) 22:17, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Russavia (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Russavia-Biophys/Proposed_decision#Russavia_restricted

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. 11 June 2011 Direct interaction by reverting my edit with an offensive edit comment about me casting my edit in bad faith: "reverting sneaking in of controversial changes to the article under the guise of a see-also link" , thus is a violation of Russavia's prohibition from commenting on or unnecessarily interacting with editors from the EEML case, except in the case of necessary dispute resolution.
2. 11 June 2011 , edit warring with Sander Säde (talk · contribs), another breach of the interaction ban, one in which he can't possibly use the excuse that he wasn't aware that he was breaking his interaction ban.
3. 17 May 2011 , violated the interaction ban by commenting on a AE request made by Piotrus (talk · contribs) - one in which he had no business commenting.

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

Not applicable. Aware of the result of the ArbCom case.

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)

Block or ban

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

As legitimate and necessary dispute resolution I was permitted to participate in the original WP:ARBRB case where my evidence and workshop suggestions where taken on board and subsequently led to Russavia's current interaction ban. In this case Russavia initiated the unwanted interaction by reverting my edit here therefore I have a legitimate and necessary reason to resolve this dispute and end that unwanted interaction and ensure that the Arbitration decision continues to be enforced by bringing it here. I note that Russavia continues to breach the ban by commenting about me on his talk page.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Notified

Discussion concerning Russavia

Statement by Russavia

Who is Tammsalu? A couple of hours ago I skimmed thru their contribs and noticed that the editor had edited since several years ago, I just assumed that it was a long-standing editor I hadn't crossed paths with. Only just now, by way of Martintg posting to my user talk page, and starting this request and claiming a link to EEML, have I realised that User:Martintg has changed his username.

But even in that case, the edit by Tammsalu was not just the inclusion of a see-also link, but also rewording of information in an article which changes the complete meaning of what was written. I have reverted, and re-included the see-also link in my edit. There is no dispute here, nor should there be. As per Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive66#Russavia, editing the same article is not part of the restriction, neither is reverting, and as per Misplaced Pages:EDITSUMMARY#Always_provide_an_edit_summary I have provided an accurate edit summary, and the summary itself is not commenting on anyone's character - the edit summary offered by Tammsalu does not adequately describe their edit. I have taken note of Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Russavia-Biophys/Proposed_decision#Potential_problem_with_restrictions and act accordingly.

Also, might I add that Martintg, aka Tammsalu, is also bound by Misplaced Pages:EEML#Editors_restricted -- his bringing this to WP:AE is the manufacturing of a dispute by him, and this report is NOT a part of any reasonable dispute resolution process, and given history of harrassment of myself by those editors who are restricted from interacting with or commenting on myself, this is a furtherment of a battleground mentality that they swore to give up as they went back to the Arbitration Committee to have their return to this area of editing allowed by way of having their topic bans lifted. I believe it is quite telling that Martin has raced to AE to ask for a ban on myself, when there is no valid reason for any belief of his report being part of any reasonable dispute resolution process.

I would suggest that Tammsalu withdraw this frivolous battleground complaint (Misplaced Pages:EEML#Disruption_4) which is lacking in any good faith, and get back to editing, or I will ask that WP:BOOMERANG apply. --What's the difference between a straight and bisexual man? 00:07, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Unfortunately, instead of dropping his vexatious complaint, Martintg has decided to attempt to turn this into a battleground; something which I will not allow to occur and which I will not participate in. At no stage were interaction bans giving editors carte blanche to claim ownership of articles. Again I point admins to Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Russavia-Biophys/Proposed_decision#Potential_problem_with_restrictions; I have taken Carcharoth's comments on board; others should be doing the same. What Martintg fails to disclose is that WP:BRD has basically taken place at Talk:Russophobia#Aivars_Slutsis - and not a single complaint; discussion is able to occur. We are adults and we should act as such. Why is Martintg bringing this to WP:AE? Is that not just continuing with Misplaced Pages:EEML#Disruption_4? And breaching Misplaced Pages:EEML#Editors_restricted? It is in my opinion vexatious reporting, and should be seen as block/ban shopping on his part. I will offer to Martintg one last time to drop this frivolous complaint, and get back to editing, or I will ask that WP:BOOMERANG apply. And with that I am happily leaving Martintg alone on his battleground, but I will be happy to respond to any questions from admins. --What's the difference between a straight and bisexual man? 12:38, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Comments by others about the request concerning Russavia

In my view, the edit summary reverting sneaking in of controversial changes to the article under the guise of a see-also link is a personal attack. The editor needs to be reminded about the requirement to observe Misplaced Pages's civility policy. Clarified and expanded in response to a comment by user Igny below. - BorisG (talk) 00:56, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

If you refer to Russavia's edit summary then no, it is not. (Igny (talk) 03:50, 11 June 2011 (UTC))

@Nanobear: I think both edit summaries are problematic, and both are at fault here. The former doesn't justify the latter. But I agree, given his own highly misleading edit summary, bringing this to AE can backfire. - BorisG (talk) 05:33, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

If my edit summary was seen as not properly reflecting the edit, then my bad, it wasn't intentional, more a function of laziness. Claiming it was "sneaky" is an assumption of bad faith gone too far and a personal attack. But that is not the point. The point is that Russavia is under an active Arbcom interaction ban. Now it is conceivable that he was unaware of my username change, but certainly edit warring with Sander Säde (talk · contribs) is a clear breach of that interaction ban. Both Nanobear (talk · contribs) (a.k.a Offliner and Russavia (talk · contribs) have a history of teaming together to tendentiously edit Baltic related topics in order to perpetuate the battleground against certain editors. I had hoped that Nanobear (talk · contribs) has moved on from that when he changed his name, but when Russavia turns up to revert my edit with an offensive comment and to begin edit warring while breaching his interaction ban in support of Nanobear, this is a return to the bad old days. The interaction ban was designed to stop precisely this kind of behaviour, and has been successful until now. --Martin (talk) 06:25, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Re AGK The diffs to the edits involving Sander Säde show that Russavia has violated his interaction restriction. But they don't show that. Reverting an editor or even edit-warring with him does not constitute interaction in a strict sense, otherwise, the interaction ban is too open to an abuse, when one of the parties (A) make controversial edits to an article where the opposing party (B) is an active contributor thereby banning him (B) from editing the article to avoid interaction with A. (Igny (talk) 23:44, 12 June 2011 (UTC))

Comment by Nanobear

• User Tammsalu edits: (edit summary: see also link) (Question: does this edit summary accurately describe his edit? Does the edit concern controversial material about ethnic and national disputes?)
• Russavia reverts: (reverting sneaking in of controversial changes to the article under the guise of a see-also link; which I will now be happy to go and add to the article)

That Tammsalu has chosen to report Russavia's edit summary as "offensive" just shows how frivolous this request is. Since when is accurately describing an edit a policy violation? Should we reward Tammsalu for the misleading edit summary?

This appears to be pure block shopping by Tammsalu. We should apply WP:BOOMERANG to stop this kind of battleground behaviour. ArbCom has previously found that Tammsalu was engaged in battleground behaviour and banned him. It seems that Tammsalu has learned nothing during his ban. Nanobear (talk) 12:46, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Result concerning Russavia

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

• The diffs to the edits involving Sander Säde show that Russavia has violated his interaction restriction. I note that this is Russavia's second such violation, and so he is blocked for 4 days per the enforcement provision of Russavia-Biophys. I have not closed this enforcement request yet, because I want to leave it open to other administrators to block other editors involved in these incidents. I find it doubtful that Russavia is the only one who has behaved disruptively here. AGK 18:25, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

• Igny: That is incorrect; the interaction ban does include reverts. AGK 10:17, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
• Nanobear: I have intentionally not closed this request for enforcement, in order to allow another administrator to determine whether Martintg/Tammsalu has violated his topic ban. If an administrator does not do so soon, I will. AGK 10:17, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

User:Barong