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This is an informal place to resolve content disputes as part of dispute resolution. It may also be used as a tool to direct certain discussions to more appropriate forums, such as requests for comment, or other noticeboards. You can ask a question on the talk page. This is an early stop for most disputes on Misplaced Pages. You are not required to participate, however, the case filer must participate in all aspects of the dispute or the matter will be considered failed. Any editor may volunteer! Click this button to add your name! You don't need to volunteer to help. Please feel free to comment below on any case. Be civil and remember; Maintain Misplaced Pages policy: it is usually a misuse of a talk page to continue to argue any point that has not met policy requirements. Editors must take particular care adding information about living persons to any Misplaced Pages page. This may also apply to some groups.

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History of role-playing video games

Dispute resolution not necessary yet.

Linda McMahon

• Linda McMahon (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Dispute overview

• Can you give us a quick explanation of what is going on? What is the issue you are bringing here?

His most recent edit has been reverting her title as a magnate in the professional wrestling industry.

Users involved

• Who is involved in the dispute? (Make sure you let them know you have posted here)

• Collect (talk · contribs)
• Screwball23 (talk · contribs)

User:Collect is vandalizing the page again. Me and him go back very far and he knows how to game the system very well. I'll be blunt : he's one of the most destructive editors I've ever come across. He has been battling me on Linda McMahon and Linda McMahon U.S. Senate campaign, 2010 ever since I started editing them.

Resolving the dispute

• Have you tried to resolve this dispute already? If so, what steps have you taken?

me and him discussed the issue again and again, but he has a habit of losing an argument, and getting bitter, and then other editors will go against him and he'll give up, only to come back to the page weeks or months later. I know he gets into disputes with a lot of editors, so maybe he was blocked or had to defend some offensive comments he made to other editors.

• How do you think we can help?

look through the history of the article and especially the talk page for Linda McMahon extensively. A lot can be learned from the interactions between me and Collect. Collect also follows my history of edits and followed me onto Carl Paladino, Linda McMahon U.S. Senate campaign, 2010, and the U.S. Senate race in Connecticut, 2010 pages.

Screwball23 talk 15:29, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

Linda McMahon discussion

Discussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand.

Note: Screwball did not notify me of this. Cheers. The issue is whether a word "magnate" in the lede of an article, where the sentence is cited to the New York Times, and where the New York Times did not use the word, is an improper misuse of a cite to make a claim not supported by the source in a BLP. I consider using a source to make a claim not supported by the source to be improper, Screwball does not. Meanwhile "chief executive" is a neutral term, used by vastkly more news sources than "magnate." Collect (talk) 15:56, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

BTW, there is no way whatsoever that removing a claim not made by the source cited is "vandalism." Cheers. Collect (talk) 15:58, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

The argument is bogus. The idea that someone is a professional wrestling chief executive is an example of synergizing sources. WP:SYN The term doesn't even make sense. How can someone say that they are a chief executive of an industry? It makes much more sense to say magnate, which is grammatically correct in explaining her position in the industry. Grammatically, a person can be a pro wrestling magnate, which makes sense because magnate can be attached to an industry. Furthermore, given that there are so few wrestling companies with established executive roles like WWE and TNA, it is also much more difficult to state that she is a pro wrestling chief executive, as she is in a class of her own. I am actually surprised Collect has come back to this page again, considering the entire case had been discussed on the talk page (it is archived now, but look at the talk page on Linda McMahon and you will see a clear argument for magnate) and it was closed already. True, she was the Chief Executive of a wrestling company, but she was also in addition, a CEO, President, and Business Manager, often in inextricable roles because she is married to Vince McMahon. The notability guidelines of Misplaced Pages are in favor of magnate, considering the fact that she gained prominence and wealth in the wrestling industry (which is the definition of magnate). Former titles, which are not nearly as notable or descriptive of her biographically, simply are not as notable. Collect is being devious in saying that the NY Times source supports him : it doesn't. It states that she was a pro wrestling mogul but never a pro wrestling chief executive. Not only that, but it seems he has neglected to mention that there are many sources that use magnate, and Collect has not put any rationale behind why in his perspective, magnate is not a neutral term. Again, all of these had been discussed, and Collect had never come up with a good reason. All he did was lose interest, went on to other edit wars, and came back to spite me with grammatically incorrect nonsense.--Screwball23 talk 02:17, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

The two major changes I've seen here are, which are both linked to the New York Times source are a) novice politician to politician and b) Chief executive to magnate. The main issue I can see here is that the text you are adding is not in the source referred to. Nowhere in the New York Times source does it mention the word magnate, only chief executive. We don't add personal assessments into articles or synthesise a number of sources to do so. Source A says chief executive, so we add chief executive into the article. If source B says magnate, we possibly can add that in as well, as long as doing so does not give that source undue weight. If 20 reputable sources says chief executive, and one says magnate, it would be inappropriate to add it in. No sources that I've seen on the talk page use the word magnate to describe her, so unless there are numerous sources that do so, then it should be left out. What's in the source, in black and white, is what should be added, not what you think the source is saying. For the other point, novice politician to politician, we need to remember that this is a lead section for an article. Most of the time in featured articles, there are few, if any, sources in the lead, the lead should be a summary of the article in general. The New York times does say "novice politician", whether adding it to the lead as opposed to simply politician is something that should be left to editorial discussion, but I think it might be best served in a section lower in the article. Steven Zhang 21:59, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

The novice issue is not being discussed here.--Screwball23 talk 02:17, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

You made a vandalism accusation. And still have never even had the basic courtesy of notifying me about it. Other editors here have the right and duty to examine the issues - not just your apparent complaint that I actually stick to the sources in WP:BLP articles. Cheers, and please note than I have no actual intent of interacting with you unnecessarily. Meanwhile, read WP:BOOMERANG again. The other editors may even look at where it took other editors to inform you of your behaviour issues. indicates possible POV issues in an article I have nothing whatever to do with. shows an unwillingness to actually read the article talk pages. shows yet another use of dispute resolution without informing the person mentioned - and where he did not even have the courtesy of responding on that page. shows a preternatural peocuppation with me. shows further the nature of edits he has made, how he regards a current Arbitrator, that he has the dsame combative attitude to others and uses SYNTH and OR routinely. Time to see how Australians act. Collect (talk) 11:19, 12 July 2011 (UTC) Collect (talk) 11:19, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Hi Screwball23 and Collect, and thanks for posting to the noticeboard. To make any progress here, I think you should both avoid bolding text in your comments, as it looks an awful lot like shouting. To resolve this dispute to everyone's satisfaction we will need to keep things calm and reasonable, and bolding text isn't going help very much there. I think this situation may have risen above AGF - what's needed here is some IPAT. Commenting on content can come after that. — Mr. Stradivarius 12:38, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

I have been very civil about this, and I am arguing my points with facts. I have no understanding why Collect has the right to Game the system, search through my edit history, and use selective edits with his own personal attacks. Collect has run these type of arguments again and again, trying to prove points by saying I posted too many times on a page, or that I was using mediation that he disagreed with. Collect was warned by previous editors to leave the Linda McMahon page alone because he was getting too heated and personal before.--Screwball23 talk 02:30, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

I am sure that you intended to be civil in your posts here, but I am afraid it is not coming off like that. For example, in your comment you said Collect has been "Gam the system", and in your initial report here you accused them of "vandalizing the page". These are serious accusations and you have provided no evidence, something which is considered a personal attack as per WP:NPA. As that page says, serious accusations require serious evidence. These kind of comments are not helping your cause, and I advise you to stop them. If you are serious about making these accusations you need to provide diffs, and you should be prepared to follow the process through to the end. — Mr. Stradivarius 03:23, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

For what it is worth, I found a few hits in lexis/nexis listing her as a magnate for pro wrestling, but about 100 hits on her with "chief executive". I didn't wade through them, but it seems that the magnate is used by New York Magazine, for example, but wire services and sources like Politico call her a chief executive. My suggestion would be to use the latter and specify her other roles in the company, which avoids the issue Screwball23 brings up about the phrasing and meets Collects concerns about the term. Could that work? --Nuujinn (talk) 21:18, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

I see where you're coming from, but I want to make it very clear that the number of hits a person can generate is not the end-all of a discussion. We are human beings, and we need to assign the most accurate terms to understand what is significant and notable about a person. A person can generate 1,000s of hits for "Jacko is wacko" and may argue that wacko was a title for Michael Jackson. A person can generate 1,000s of hits of Donald Trump and "president" and that won't justify the term. A person can similarly look up Linda McMahon and "executive", which is misleading because the search is not descript enough to weed out news regarding Lowell Weicker, CEO news and changes, and jumbled groupings that may include the term but not necessarily referring to her. True, she was chief executive in the company, which again, was but one of many titles she held while in WWE. All the same, she could have been called CEO, which she was at the time of her departure, or President, which she was for several years, and some may argue was a higher leadership role over the WWF/E. The number of hits per term, which I believe Collect ran as "Linda McMahon" and "chief executive" still does not make her title notable or significant. The reason people are looking up her name is because she was a wrestling magnate, that is, a person whose wealth and influence is derived from a certain industry - in this case, pro wrestling. Considering the fact that the McMahon name is nearly-synonymous with WWE and pro wrestling in general, I am shocked that anyone would want to remove the pro wrestling and just call her a businesswoman or a CEO. There are lots of CEOs that are not notable enough to have[REDACTED] pages. Calling someone a businessperson is an insult to the readers on wikipedia, who will then never be able to know a person's business from the lead, which is blatant censorship at worst and highly unnecessary at best. She is a pro wrestling magnate, and I thank User:Nuujin for generating those sources. I also would like to make it clear that she is not even a chief executive at this time, and the term will never have any major significance ; her legacy as a wrestling magnate will survive, and will endure even if she never returns to wrestling. Also, a major discussion on this was handled previously on Linda McMahon talk page, and can be accessed in the archives.--Screwball23 talk 02:23, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

(od)I have avoided any interactions with you. You seem bent on trying to make disputes with me. I suggest that this has been shown repeatedly, and you seem not to hear what the others have said - that claims must be properly sourced, and that the claim I removed was, in fact, not only not properly sourced, but was not sourced at all. I think the dispute was resolved, but it looks like yo wish to make this a cause celebre of some sort. I would point out that you have been repeatedly warned about this sort of behaviour in the past, and it is posssible that an admin here might actually act upon those warnings now. Cheers. Collect (talk) 02:44, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Ok, do you have a factual argument, because I've been on-point here again and again. I have yet to see that from you. Again and again, I see faulty "consensus" arguments, bogus google searches, and grammatically-incorrect terms that disrupt the factual accuracy of the page. Your personal attacks and threats absolutely need to stop too. We've been through this before, in a similar argument where you wanted to censor her net worth.--Screwball23 talk 02:37, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

In September 2010, Collect lost this argument and agreed with magnate.] He was even told (I am not good at searching) to lay off the McMahon page (I think the editor's name was King of Hearts, but I can't remember who told him. Now, he's come back to the same page with the same argument. He takes delight in gaming the system and getting into forums like this.Why he would agree with magnate a few months ago, and then suddenly come back and fight this again, is beyond me. Read the archive, because you will see I have been extremely civil again and again in handling his vandalism and personal attacks.--Screwball23 talk 02:45, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

I have warned you about making personal attacks above, but I fear that I need to be more blunt. You said in this comment that Collect "takes delight in gaming the system". This is a serious accusation with no evidence, and serious accusations with no evidence are considered personal attacks as per WP:NPA. Personal attacks are not acceptable on Misplaced Pages, and if repeated may result in you being blocked from editing. (You can see the exact wording here.) It is really in your best interest to stop making personal attacks if you want to avoid sanctions here. — Mr. Stradivarius 04:46, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

I'll throw in a grammatical concern. Magnate is really an uncommon and rarely appropriate term for an objective description. "Magnate", like "mogul", "honcho", "big man", or other mammoth label conveys a subjective judgment about a person's relative importance. We don't use terms like this for the same reason we don't call celebrities 'popular' or artists 'well-respected' or athletes 'famous'. It's not a quantifiable, factual term. On the merits, a person can indeed be a CEO in an industry, though perhaps not of and industry (of a company, sure). Also, Screwball, stop saying other editors are gaming the system. Focus only on the content of the discussion, not the other editor or what you suppose their motivations to be. Ocaasi 10:43, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

How is magnate subjective? It has been referenced in reliable sources and the rationale for magnate is very clear. The connotations to words like "honcho" and "big man" are not relevant here : No one is arguing for any of those terms, and I do not support "honcho", "big man" or any of those mammoth labels. Please lets stay on point because the word magnate is being discussed here, and magnate status is not under doubt here. Businessperson is not a good term or a precise term because it does not describe her well. She worked in the wrestling industry, and her status, influence, and wealth have been derived from there. It is not sensible to reduce her to a businessperson because, for one, there is strong evidence for magnate, and in any case, the businessperson term is not durable. Her notability and influence are well-linked to her association with professional wrestling, and that status is carried throughout the McMahon family name. For that reason, it is absolutely factual, and you and I both are aware of that. She is also not involved in pro wrestling now, but her status, notability, etc. are all still linked to wrestling. That again would mean she is no longer described by those terms, but is still known for being a pro wrestling magnate. I also would advise you to think twice about what Collect is talking about, because Collect, who brought up this entire edit war, supported the word magnate a few months ago, and then decided to revert it back now. I currently have him following me to the Muammar Gaddafi page, so please do not blame the victim here.--Screwball23 talk 22:02, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Nope - Gaddafi is an excessively long BLP page - shortening the lede is "following you" in what manner precisely? I subnit ny work on Joseph Widney was proper. Are you upset at shortening that page? I honestly made no attempt to undo your editorial position there at all -- sometimes you will have to accept that you are not the centre of the universe. Really. Cheers. Collect (talk) 22:11, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

I'll give you an opportunity to prove you're not following me: tell me why you , only to change your mind now? I also remember you were told to leave the McMahon page alone and to stop your attacks towards me, but honestly, I don't know how to use the search system as well as you do, so I'll have to ask you to remember which admin spoke with you last time. Was it Kingofhearts?--Screwball23 talk 23:00, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Huh? You ask why I think that words in claims should be supported by the sources? My position on that has not changed one iota. I recalled this article as a result of the Cirt ArbCom case, where I take a strong position about WP:BLP. I think you should read all of that case before leaping headfirst into any conclusions or accusations. I think the Arbitrator you need to complain to is User:jclemens. I am sure he looks forward to renewing your acquaintance <g>. Meanwhile, I rather think all the "attacks" have been directed at me, and without ever doing me the elemental courtesy of notification yet. Cheers, and have a cup of tea. There is no need for this discussion to be interminably continued with your accusations. Collect (talk) 23:54, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

I'm asking a simple question. Why did you agree with magnate on September 7, 2010, clearly stating that magnate was agreed upon on the talk page, only to change your position recently?--Screwball23 talk 00:40, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

I don't think we need to concern ourselves too much with what Collect thought about this particular word last year; there's nothing I'm aware of in the Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines that says that editors can't change their minds. I think a much better idea would be to concentrate on what we want to do about this dispute from now on. Screwball23, is it absolutely positively vital that you use the word "magnate"? Would you be open to using different wording that means the same thing? — Mr. Stradivarius 04:52, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps you should still note that the source cited (NYT) does not and never has used the word "magnate" in it. And ask why WP:BLP should be abrogated for any reason here. Cheers. Collect (talk) 07

35, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

You're still evading the question. Why did you agree with magnate on September 7, 2010, clearly stating that magnate was agreed upon on the talk page, only to change your position now? And yes, User talk:Mr. Stradivarius, this is important, because Collect is beating this NYT article to death. Back in Sept 2010, Collect disagreed with mogul, which is in the NYT article, but said magnate was good.--Screwball23 talk 16:06, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

If I may comment, I'd like to point out that Wiktionary defines "magnate" as, quote:

1. Metal object with flux.
2. Powerful industrialist; captain of industry.
3. A person of rank, influence or distinction in any sphere.

Using this definition, I believe Vince McMahon qualifies more for this term than Linda as he is the mastermind behind WWE. chris†ianrocker90 17:55, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Mastermind is extremely subjective. I mean, there are sources that could easily prop up Linda as the true mastermind behind WWE.--Screwball23 talk 15:58, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

To Collect and Screwball23 - please try and keep comments here calm and focused on content. As stated at the top of this page, this is not the forum for listing new "beefs" about another editor. If the dialogue here does not become constructive soon I will close this thread and find a more appropriate venue for the dispute. All the best. — Mr. Stradivarius 09:36, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Outside opinion: Screwball23, the initial questions asked when starting the case don't seem to have direct answers. How exactly do you think someone can help you resolve the issue? What, specifically, other than digging through someone's contributions, do you think can be done to resolve the issue? Hazardous Matt (talk) 13:49, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Simple. Keep the page with its most accurate wording: she is a professional wrestling magnate. It never would be an issue, as even Collect agreed with it before, but he suddenly decided to come back and revert it.--Screwball23 talk 15:58, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Is there a reliable source that refers to her as a "magnate"? If not, it seems to be subjective phrasing. Hazardous Matt (talk) 16:09, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Of course. Why would I argue for something if there wasn't so much strong evidence? Check it out: it's in The Week, NY Daily News, NY Magazine, tons and tons of other sources. The NY Times calls her a mogul again and again, and so does the Washington Post, USA Post, MSNBC, Seattle Times, and Huffington Post. mogul magnate.--Screwball23 talk 16:29, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Can you just link to the source you are using that refers to her as a magnate, rather then send us through Google searches? Hazardous Matt (talk) 16:35, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

(Edit) Nevermind, I just referenced the source from the article. does not contain the word "magnate". I suggest looking for a more NPOV term. Hazardous Matt (talk) 16:55, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Again, I sent you the google searches because there are tons of good articles, including the NYT one, that support her status as a magnate in the wrestling industry.--Screwball23 talk 03:37, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

I've already responded to this. Hazardous Matt (talk) 11:53, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Linda McMahon resolution

The Big Bang Theory

Closed as stale. Feel free to post here again if necessary.

CVSNT, Apache_Subversion

• CVSNT (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Apache Subversion (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Dispute overview

• Can you give us a quick explanation of what is going on? What is the issue you are bringing here?

New 50 x citation_needed marks on this computing article, including 6 in the first 56 words.

Users involved

• Who is involved in the dispute? (Make sure you let them know you have posted here)

• ArthurBarrett (talk · contribs)
• Qworty (talk · contribs)

Resolving the dispute

• Have you tried to resolve this dispute already? If so, what steps have you taken?

Qworty had deleted the sections several times, I asked why on talk page, and then restored them several times. After several repeats Qworty discussed the issue on talk page and the resolution is these 50 x citation_needed

• How do you think we can help?

I think 50 x citation_needed is excessive. Either Unreferenced_section, or a reasonable number of citation_needed seems to be all that is required. User:Qworty appears to have a lot of experience on Misplaced Pages, but not much with computing articles. Just because the Apache_Subversion or Apache_HTTP_Server or PVCS or ClearCase articles do not appear to require this many citations, I accept that maybe CVSNT does - but I am a little bit surprised so I thought it was worth checking first. I can find references for all these things easily, but in most cases a single web page or page in a reference book is going to be the same reference for almost every citation_needed as it stands. I work for the vendor of the software described in the article, and so I avoid editing the article, however I do help provide citations and try and resolve disputes over technical issues when I can. Can you offer any sage advice on this issue of 50 x citation_needed? Should I just add 50 citations, all pointing to a single web page or a single page of the reference manual (as requested)? Or should the 50 x citation_needed be replaced with a single Unreferenced_section?

Arthur (talk) 17:32, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

CVSNT, Apache_Subversion discussion

Discussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand.

WP:POINT comes to mind. I work in the domain space (use SVN and GIT for software development) and Qworty is disrupting the article to make a point. In my viewpoint they need to remove those fact/citation needed tags and request citations on the more audacious claims individually and do a unreferenced_section header. Hasteur (talk) 18:50, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

You also forgot to notify Qworty about this report. I have done this for you. Hasteur (talk) 18:54, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

I have made the bulk of my comments on the talk page , so I am not going to repeat all of them here. In summary, Arthur Barrett is an employee of the company, and thus has WP:COI. I became aware of him through the COIN . Article talk page also reveals that this COI has been an ongoing problem. He has issues of WP:OWN, and reverts against consensus on every edit that he doesn't like. He is a WP:SPA. He will not listen to policy discussions regarding the necessity of WP:RS. His purpose is to maintain a promotional article without references, and to revert every single policy edit made to it. The only reason I asked for the citations in the article is because he ASKED me to, and this was our "compromise" from the talk page. But he always reverts compromise--even the ones he has agreed to--and thus we have him coming to dispute resolution in the hope that others will support his WP:COI WP:SPA WP:OWN approach to the article. The material he has been championing has been in dispute for well over a year, without his ever referencing it, despite the multiple efforts of several editors to get him to do it. Well, this is Misplaced Pages--if the material isn't referenced after such a long time, and so many arguments back and forth involving multiple editors on the talk page, then it is finally time for the material to be removed, and WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is no argument. Qworty (talk) 20:08, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

So in addition to POINT, can I assume that you've also considered WP:TAGBOMB and WP:OVERTAGGING? I really think limiting yourself to the top 5 fantastical claims for the citation requesting would be the best way to deal with this. Otherwise it becomes a giant distraction that detracts from the purpose of improving the article and the encyclopedia. Hasteur (talk) 20:45, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Thanks User talk:Hasteur. I put a comment on the CVSNT:Talk page to notify Quorty, I take it from your comment that there is another way to do this that I am unaware of...? As for Quorty's comments above: I'm disinclined to respond to his vitriol, but am happy to offer a clear and reasoned response if you think it would help this discussion here. Note: I was not aware of Ldsandon's COIN from over a year ago, however Ldsandon is well known to me outside of Misplaced Pages, and runs a blog which is highly critical of the product described by the article- I have attempted to work with him and the discussion is preserved on the CVSNT:talk page and revolves around the use of a single word: "free" versus "zero-dollar". I am not sure why Quorty is raising a 1 year old COIN here when the issue I raised is merely unreferenced_section vs. 50 x citation_needed. Arthur (talk) 20:53, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

When there's a "You must notify a user" type comment, it means on their User talk page. Hasteur (talk) 21:03, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Hi Arthur and Qworty, and thanks for posting to the board. This dispute strikes me as a misunderstanding that could be sorted out quite easily with some clear communication. Qworty is quite right in all the policies and guidelines that they have cited, especially Misplaced Pages:Verifiability and Misplaced Pages:Identifying reliable sources. All those statements in the article really do need to be sourced, and editors can indeed challenge and remove anything that is unsourced. I think the number of "citation needed" tags on CVSNT is excessive though. As an example, let's take this text from the article as it stands:

Users unhappy with the limitations of CVS 1.10.8 began the development of CVSNT. The original limitations addressed were related to running CVS server on Windows and handling filenames for case-insensitive platforms.

Any source that discusses the history of CVSNT will very likely include both of these points, so if I were to add a source for this it would seem perfectly reasonable to me to just add it to the end of the second sentence. Because of this, it also seems to me that the "citation needed" tag after the first sentence is redundant. I think I will go through the article and remove some of the redundant tags - that will look much nicer for readers of the article.

Also, Arthur, the purpose of an "unreferenced section" banner tag is to encourage editors to add references to a section - it is not meant as an excuse for leaving a section with no references and then considering it finished. What you really need to do is add the references, and this will solve all of your problems. You mentioned that all the references would be to the same few websites and reference books. This is absolutely fine - encouraged, even - as long as they pass our reliable sources test. As I see it has not been used yet in either article, I should point out that it is technically possible to reference two different sentences in the article using the same reference text, and have that reference text only appear once in the references section. Have a look at this page to see how.

About the conflict of interest: I think we should not forget the main purpose of this policy, and that is to keep our articles neutral. As long as the articles are kept neutral, I see no problem in having the help of someone close to the projects in question. However, Arthur, if you delete the work of other users or otherwise attempt to alter the balance of the articles, then most users will see that as a conflict of interest problem, and there is a chance you could receive sanctions. Here are my suggestions for how you can contribute: I think that for purely factual information, it is perfectly acceptable for you to add sources directly to the article. For sources backing up opinions, I suggest instead that you post them to the article talk page and wait for another editor to vet them for inclusion. Also, I encourage you to contribute content to the article as well. Again, what you should do is add your proposed edits to the talk page, and let someone else add them after evaluating them. If you do this then your conflict of interest will cease to be a problem, and the articles will be vastly improved as well. Let me hear your thoughts on my suggestions. All the best. — Mr. Stradivarius 03:08, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Hi Mr. Stradivarius. I think your suggestions are great, spot on. In fact that is exactly what I thought I had been doing... It's been years since I added content 'content' to that page - in fact probably just at the very very beginning , and then I did as you suggested - put in in talk for prior discussion and allowed another editor to move it across. Most of the people that have contributed stuff recently seem to be 'drive by editors' - so they add something, that then gets flagged and never come back to 'fix' it, so I take some responsibility for 'fixing' things that the original authors don't seem able to, eg: removing things like 'prices', and adding references. Off Topic; but since Qworty raised it: LDsandon did complain that I changed 'freely-downloadable' for 'zero-dollar' and I now know the dispute resolution process that I should have pointed him at. Because in the 'GPL' license world 'free' has a particular well-defined meaning, I still think this was a factual change. If you can see something in the edit history that I did that you think is a good example of what I should have abstained from, please do point it out to me. Finally I want to clarify that I wasn't suggesting 'unreferenced_section' so it could be ignored, but so that I (or anyone else) could see what needed referencing. I think the good outcome of all of this comes form Qworty ignoring my suggestions and instead using 50 x citation_needed, it clarified the different expectations of the amount of referencing and got me to come here to get other opinions. If Qworty had merely added unreferenced_section I probably would have reviewed it and seen the need for 1 or maybe 2 additional references. Now after this I'm leaning more towards maybe finding 5, if Qworty does as Hasteur suggested. My concern was and still is purely that 50 citations for such a short and (previously/recently) uncontested article (in terms of facts) seems very very odd (to me).

Ah just noticed you've gone ahead and followed your own suggestion. Looks good to me. I'm on the road at the moment, different city every day of the week, so I'm going to leave the citation_needed markers and intend to add any references noone else has decided to resolve when I'm home in a few weeks time. I'll not close this dispute yet since Qworty should have an opportunity to reply. Arthur (talk) 17:23, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply, Arthur. It's good to see that you've already been following the suggestion to post suggested edits on the talk page, rather than adding them directly. I would also add that it's possible for you to change content this way too - there's no need for you to put up with anything you see as bad writing, as long as you suggest that change on the talk page and don't edit the page yourself. I consider changing "freely downloadable" to "zero-dollar" to be over the line here. A better way would probably have been to put that suggestion on the talk page and see what other editors thought. If you think that something should really be included but the editors at the article don't think it should, then it is probably a good idea to post here again rather than risking a conflict-of-interest problem and an edit war by editing the article directly.

As for the referencing, it might be enlightening for you to look at some of our best articles and the level of referencing that is expected of them. Some of the ones I found on computer software were Opera (web browser) and Rosetta@home. The guideline is to have an inline citation after every fact that could be disputed. This can be confusing to some, as it's a lot more citations than are required in academia. This all stems from the fact that anyone can edit Misplaced Pages - citations are the way we establish accuracy, whereas in academia this can be done through reputation. There's no rush to add them - just do it when you have a chance. If anything gets removed in the meantime, you can always ask on the talk page for it to be reinstated when you have found references for it. Hope this reply helps. — Mr. Stradivarius 01:32, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

CVSNT, Apache_Subversion resolution

Talk:Media Matters for America

Not much more that can be done on this noticeboard.

Aafia Siddiqui, File:Siddiqui2.PNG

• Aafia Siddiqui (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• File:Siddiqui2.PNG (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Dispute overview

• Can you give us a quick explanation of what is going on? What is the issue you are bringing here?

There is an ongoing dispute on Talk:Aafia Siddiqui and now WP:BLP/N over whether the image File:Siddiqui2.PNG, which is a facial composite created by the FBI, is appropriate for an infobox where we usually have actual photographs to illustrate the subject. See WP:BLP/N#Facial composite as infobox image of a BLP.

Users involved

• Who is involved in the dispute? (Make sure you let them know you have posted here)

• Epeefleche (talk · contribs)
• Iqinn (talk · contribs)
• Greg L (talk · contribs)
• Wikireader41 (talk · contribs)

There was some edit warring over the placement of the image, and later, over whether {{NPOV}} should be on the article until the dispute is resolved. However, I would characterize this as a content dispute and tend to ignore user conduct issues.

Resolving the dispute

• Have you tried to resolve this dispute already? If so, what steps have you taken?

When I saw the edit war, I fully protected the article and referred the dispute to WP:BLP/N for more eyes. That resulted in some interesting and productive discussion, but the original disputants seem as committed to their positions as ever and if anything the dispute is now more polarized than ever.

• How do you think we can help?

Another uninvolved administrator should review the discussion and close it.

causa sui (talk) 01:30, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Aafia Siddiqui, File:Siddiqui2.PNG discussion

Discussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand.

Comment by Epeefleche

This is interesting. I brought Causa to this noticeboard, at which he was roundly admonished and some asked that he be de-sysopped. It makes interesting reading; the facts were noted by many as being outrageous. The closer wrote: "An RFC/U or possibly an Arbcom motion would be the way to pursue this any further - but I would strongly urge the key parties to instead consider how they can contribute to everyone putting this behind them and getting back to editing constructively." Causa took a break.

Back now, he appeared at a conversation in which I was having a dispute with one other editor. How did he find himself there -- Causa, are you wikihounding me? This seems too odd to be coincidental. And not in keeping with the close of the AN/I.

Then, in the discussion Causa suggested "without objection" he would bring the matter here. And asked "any objections"? I objected, clearly, with rationale. He ignored me.

I suggest this be closed, under the circumstances. And I would ask that Causa not wikihound me.--Epeefleche (talk) 01:56, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Comment from involved party, User:Greg L

• This started with an editor over on that article editing against consensus and editwarring. It was four to one, with a clear and consistent rationale by the majority that there was no violation of WP:MUG (which discussion on Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard has validated) and the editwarring editor, who has previously been sanctioned for abusing {POV} tags, should have been blocked for 24 hours.

  I haven’t participated on the Talk:Aafia Siddiqui page for 24 hours and don’t intend to. My objective is only that whatever consensus is arrived at on that page is abided by. That’s all; I don’t have time for even more wikidrama borne out of a refusal by one single editor to respect consensus. Greg L (talk) 01:54, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

P.S. I don’t remember everything I ever participated in and didn’t remember the name of causa sui. I certainly forgot about the Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents/Causa sui issue that Epeefleche mentions below. But I see I made 34 posts there. (Perhaps that wasn’t wise.)

Oh well. I commend causa sui for washing his hands of this one now; that was wise as it has turned into a hot potato.

I would suggest that the only remedy needed here is for an eye be kept on Talk:Aafia Siddiqui. When (or if) the next declaration is made there that a consensus exists, and if there is a denial that the consensus exists and contrary editing starts, I think all that is required is for an uninvolved admin to weigh in as to whether or not a consensus exists. If one does exist and it is clear that the contrary editing is against consensus, that the offending editor be either admonished or blocked depending on the severity of the infraction. Greg L (talk) 02:09, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Comment bly Cla68

I am, as far as I know, uninvolved with this article. The discussion on this issue at BLPN was productive, as it appears that a majority of uninvolved editors have agreed that the image should be moved from the infobox, or else removed from the article altogether.

There are some editor conduct issues here. Several editors edit-warred. Iqinn was the worst offender , followed by Wikireader , Epeefleche , and GregL . Edit warring, especially with regard to a possible BLP issue, is unacceptable. Iqinn's placement of the POV tag was incorrect, since the issue in dispute was a possible BLP violation, but editors still should not have edit-warred over it. The editors involved should have immediately taken the dispute to BLPN instead of revert warring.

To correct the behavior in question, I recommend 24-hour blocks for Iqinn, Wikireader, Epeefleche, and GregL. Since the discussion at the BLPN has apparently supported Iqinn's position that there was a real BLP issue, Iqinn's block should be the same length as the others for edit warring over the POV tag. Also, I see nothing wrong with Causa's actions with regard to this issue. Causa appears to have followed proper procedures to the letter, so it doesn't matter if Epeefleche believes there is animosity between the two of them. I think Epeefleche owes Causa an apology. Actually, my stricken statement is probably a little too strong. Epeefleche, if Causa is following the procedures to the letter, and you've been caught possibly violating our BLP guidelines, I think it's more productive to reflect on what you could have done better rather than trying to blame the admin who helped clean up the mess. Cla68 (talk) 04:42, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

My disinclination to pursue user conduct concerns stems from the fact that both sides were equally responsible for the edit war, and protection solved it. Since the article is protected I would tend to view that issue as moot for the time being, and as blocks are not punitive it would be inappropriate to block either party unless they resume edit warring when protection is removed. However, I will yield to the judgment of whatever brave admin picks this up. Regards, causa sui (talk) 06:27, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

comment by Collect

The BLP/N discussion was substantially in favour of putting a properly described image at best into the body of the BLP, and not having it in the infobox. The dispute, as far as I am concerned, shows a real consensus that the picture not be in the infobox. Collect (talk) 07:26, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Comment involved party, Wikireader41

All I would like to add was this controversy involved an "Image" that had been part of the said article for more than a year. during this time dozens of editors had edited the article without seeing any problem and countless other read it without seeing a problem. For no particular reason Iquinn decided that the image was so inappropriate that it needed to be taken out without a proper discussion. Subsequently when consensus on the talk page seemed firmly against this he sought another forum and started another discussion My views on this issue are on the Talk page and on BLPN. I have no problem with moving or removing the image if consensus demands that though I myself still feel it is OK and does not violate any policies. however disregarding WP:FORUMSHOP needs to be discouraged. If people think that that is unimportant then maybe someone can suggest another forum we can open a discussion since we clearly don't have a clear consensus on BLPN.--Wikireader41 (talk) 23:03, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Comment

This is not RFC/U, ANI, AN, RfArb, or any other shaming board. this is a location for people to seek a non-binding 3rd opinion of the content. Please present the conversations in a threaded manner without the individual "Hopelessly Involved Statement by User:Example". Thank you. Hasteur (talk) 15:53, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Further, this is a non-binding page staffed by editor volunteers. While some of the volunteers may be administrators, they are not wielding their administrative powers. From what I can tell. Casusa sui: Extending the page protection after you initially set a 3 day protection seems excessive. If the page gets edit-warred back and forth about the image, preventativeley suspend privilages to the editors doing the warring, not all editors in general Hasteur (talk) 16:13, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

I agree, this is definitely not the right place to start a formal proposal on this issue. This dispute seems like the kind that could affect policy when it is resolved, and as such it is obviously too big for this board. Having said that, it has not yet been debated enough to go to formal mediation. I suggest starting an RfC to get the ball rolling. There are three obvious positions for an RfC that I can think of: image in infobox, image in article body, and no image. Can anyone think of any other possible positions? The more that we can brainstorm here the better chance that an RfC will be successful. — Mr. Stradivarius 05:54, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

It's good to be back. I think the point about page protection extension is fair, though I persist in my belief that I was correct to do it, in the circumstances. In the interest of keeping discussion on topic, and since I would welcome any administrator removing the protection on his or her own rationale, I would prefer to address my rationale for use of sysop tools via my talk page or email. I think Mr. Stradivarius also makes a perceptive point that this issue may have brought out vagueness in WP:MUG and the BLP policy generally, so it may be a good test case for an amplification of the policy. However, since I feel that (especially given my history with the participants) I've already done enough to try to resolve this, I'll leave it to others to take it from here. Regards, causa sui (talk) 06:52, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

I applaud Causa Sui for disassociating himself from this case given his history with some of the disputants per WP:INVOLVED. I would agree that this case should be used to clarify and amplify WP:MUG as clearly this is not the only article using mug shots. if we are going to take the position that mug shots and/or facial composites from concerned Law Enforcement agencies are never acceptable on BLPs this needs to be explicitly stated in WP:MUG. several other BLPs on WP use similar Images like Zacarias Moussaoui,Glen Stewart Godwin,Whitey Bulger,Ted Kaczynski & Richard Reid. I would support an RfC on this issue to get further input from broad[REDACTED] community.--Wikireader41 (talk) 16:22, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

As an aside, WP:INVOLVED is unrelated to my decision, since I'm not a party to the content dispute, and there is no conflict of interest. Note the second paragraph. Also, the dispute (as I understand it) is mainly over whether the composite should be in the infobox, rather than elsewhere in the article. --causa sui (talk) 20:55, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

To Wikireader's point, he is correct as to Causa being involved, as reflected in the above discussion. It's poor form -- both the indicated above sequence of following those who bring an AN/I about Causa re his misuse of tools, Causa's failure to be his word as pointed out earlier in this string, and Causa's failure to adhere to wp:admin in this string by ignoring an editor's question.--Epeefleche (talk) 21:05, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

@ Causa. The dispute started when Iquinn removed the image from the article, got reverted and then persisted in removing the image ( without any discussion on talk page). It did not occur because the image was moved within the article. At the time Iquinn wanted the image removed not moved within the article. He persisted in reverting several editors even when the consensus on the talk page at that time was against his removal of the image. Let us be very clear on the facts. IMO not requiring consensus for ones own actions while demanding consensus for actions of other editors opposing you in a debate is a subtle and sophisticated form of POV pushing which needs to be discouraged. Also per WP:INVOLVED "Involvement is generally construed very broadly by the community, to include current or past conflicts with an editor (or editors), and disputes on topics, regardless of the nature, age, or outcome of the dispute." This discussion is not about you so I wont say anything more and in general I do respect your work here on WP.--Wikireader41 (talk) 23:46, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

To Epeefleche - I realise that you might not be completely happy with Causa right now, but I think this space is best served by discussion of the content of this dispute. As this issue has already been commented on by so many people at the BLP/N, I don't think we can realistically say that it is just about the behaviour of one or two editors any more. What would you say to the RfC idea that I outlined above? — Mr. Stradivarius 02:38, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

• My 2¢, to Mr. Stradivarius and Epeefleche, is that we ought to just close this one out. Tensions were high and much time has elapsed.

  I won’t mince words here; I think IQinn’s edits are chronically biased out of the mainstream view, he baits and taunts other editors, and cheats to high heaven when he knows better. He had been blocked before for tag-bombing articles and—I think—was wikilawyering by pointing to the the {{POV}}-tag documentation and how it said the tag could be removed, among other reasons, if all editors involved in the dispute agreed that it should be removed. Per this discussion on WT:NPOV dispute, that goof has been corrected (∆ edit here). The tag itself points to the proper governing policy regarding its use and removal, and the documentation to the tag is now in conformance with Misplaced Pages policy.

  No one may edit against consensus. No one may tag-bomb articles after losing a consensus decision as a way to force continued discussion on the issue. And no one may restore tags when there is a consensus to remove them.

  Discussion is now restarting on Talk:Aafia Siddiqui. The next time someone edits against consensus in any fashion—including *creative* use of tags after losing to a consensus opinion, I’ll do my best to see that they are taken to ANI in a New York second. If I get my way, there will be a clearly documented discussion thread like this to point the admins too. Hopefully, an admin at ANI will deal with the problem decisively… Greg L (talk) 03:24, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Well, Greg you are easily proven wrong. WP:BLP/N#Facial composite as infobox image of a BLP where the great majority of un-involved editors agree with my position to move or remove the image from the infobox. IQinn (talk) 03:39, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Greg, Iqinn did "win" the argument at BLPN. Iqinn, you did edit war over the POV tag. So, you're both wrong. I suggest that you two start working together better. Cla68 (talk) 05:47, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

No. This is a no-spin zone. IQinn was wrong and lost. He claimed WP:MUG required that it be deleted and started deleting the image (∆ edit here). He editwared over that, lost to consensus, addressed that loss by tagbombing the article (∆ edit here)., and then editwared over the tag when he didn’t get his way. Now the image is still in the article, only moved. News of this conflict has spread across the land and awakened the community. Next time IQinn, the community will deal with your disruption using the only language you seem to understand and respond to. Greg L (talk) 15:05, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

@ Cla68. Iquinn's position ( when the dispute broke out) was to remove the picture from the article not moving it out of infobox. In not one of his multiple edits did he move the image within the article. Down the road an RfC may decide that It is OK to leave the image as is so it is too early to proclaim a "winner" here. Forum shopping and "believing" the forum where you get a result that you want is clearly against WP policy and is blatant POV pushing. I personally don't see a consensus to remove the image anywhere including BLPN.--Wikireader41 (talk) 15:56, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

I don't think it would be an unfair compromise reading of that discussion that the image should be moved out of the infobox, but not removed from the article. Would that satisfy everyone? --causa sui (talk) 19:08, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

I thought you sort of washed your hands of this, causa sui. By the way (I’m curious now): just how old are you?

Other, non-involved editors like Mr. Stradivarius quoted Misplaced Pages policy that reads Involvement is generally construed very broadly by the community, to include current or past conflicts with an editor (or editors), and disputes on topics, regardless of the nature, age, or outcome of the dispute. Any admin who involved himself in that dispute (you in this case) merely should have lowered the boom on any editor who was editing against consensus. After Epeefleche has been accusing you of stalking him and got into your face with an RfC asking you to hang up your admin hat, you should have known better than to wade into that dispute. But you did. And what did you do with that golden opportunity? You conducted your affairs in a manner that amounted to escalating bickering rather than deflating it.

What could not possibly be clearer from what has been written above is that the consensus here is that this not the venue to try to solve that edit dispute. Decisions are (once again) being made on the Aafia Siddiqui talk page, where all discussion pertaining to the disposition of that photo are, and will, be made and where the consensus opinion will rule like everywhere else on Misplaced Pages; either that or editors who disrupt in any fashion—particularly by editing against consensus—will have the boom lowered on them. So…

It’s over now. The picture has already been moved (which I have a hard time believing you didn’t already know). This is contrary to what IQinn wanted (he insisted it be deleted). Please drop it now and leave Epeefleche alone from hereon. If you have a jones about something he’s doing, just go find one of the other 6,943,082 articles Misplaced Pages has to worry about. The Aafia Siddiqui wikidrama ship has sailed. Time to move on. I suggest you drop this PDQ because your behavior here no longer impresses. Greg L (talk) 20:01, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Aafia Siddiqui, File:Siddiqui2.PNG resolution

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