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Q4: Why aren't there sections on science and technology, education, media, tourism etc?
A4: New sections require talk-page consensus. In archived discussions, it was decided to keep them out. Consider expanding their respective daughter articles, such as History of India, instead. See WP:WPC.
Q5: Why was my image or external link removed?
A5: To add or remove images and links, start a thread on this page first. See WP:FP?, WP:IMAGE, and WP:EL.
Q6: The map is wrong!
A6: The map shows the official (de jure) borders in undisputed territory and the de facto borders and all related claims where there's a dispute; it cannot exclusively present the official views of India, Pakistan, or China. See WP:NPOV.
Q7: India is a superpower!
A7: Consult the archives of this talk page for discussions of India's status as a superpower before adding any content that makes the suggestion. See WP:DUE.
Q8: Delhi is a state!
A8: To create an Indian state, the Parliament of India must pass a law to that effect—see Articles 2 through 4 of the Constitution of India, full text here. The Sixty-ninth Amendment, which was enacted in 1991, added Article 239AA to the constitution. It proclaimed the National Capital Territory of Delhi, gave it a legislative assembly, and accorded it special powers that most union territories lack. But Delhi was not made a state. Several crucial powers were retained by the central government, such as responsibility for law and order. Delhi also does not have a governor; instead, a lieutenant governor presides. Unlike Himachal Pradesh, which gained statehood in 1970, and Goa, which gained it in 1987, Delhi continues to be listed as a union territory by the First Schedule.
Q9: Add Hindi as the national language/hockey as the national sport!
A9: Hindi is the official language, not national language. There is no national language, but there are constitutionally recognized languages, commonly known as Schedule 8 languages. English also serves as a subsidiary official language until the universal use of Hindi is approved by the states and parliament.
Croatian writer Giancarlo Kravar: India has announced that it has succeeded to produce the cheapest tablet PC in the world that students will buy at price of 35 dollars to expand digital acces to the internet in the Asian giant. The government says that the computer Aakash, which means the sky, at first be available in a pilot series of 100,000 pieces, so that in the coming months, this figure increased to millions. 78.2.115.53 (talk) 01:12, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
I think this should be included when section named "Science and Technology" is to be made/created in main article. I however find it funny that no section exists in India's article where many other countries have like China and others do. A suggestion on how to build up this section of 'science and technology' is given somewhere below in this articles discussion.
Culture Image Rotation Removed With No Discussion?
Can someone please tell me where is the discussion and consensus that was held to eliminate the Culture Image Rotation?
The culture image rotation allowed for a variety of images from dance, art, cuisine, architecture, and society to be shown from North, South, West and Eastern India.
The images selected were agreed upon by more than 25 different users. How can someone just remove it with no discussion? Nikkul (talk) 03:04, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
Nikkul -- you are not the final decision maker on images, please stop reverting to your preferred ones. Your behavior across multiple articles is very disruptive as you've been told by many many editors before. —SpacemanSpiff04:28, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
I never said I was the final decision maker. Please show me where the discussion and consensus was to stop the Culture Image Rotation.Nikkul (talk) 06:03, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
There is no appetite, Nikkul, for your glossy, anonymous, vacuous, and airbrushed images on this page. The India article is not a tourist brochure. Fowler&fowler«Talk»06:59, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
But where is the discussion to remove the Culture Image Rotation? The culture image rotation was agreed upon by almost 25 users. Surely there must have been a discussion and consensus before such a dramatic change was made. Nikkul (talk) 19:49, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
A discussion about demographics images was already held and the consensus was to have a demographic map in the demographics section since it is impossible to show the faces of all types of Indians in one image. Nikkul (talk) 19:54, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
+1 to Fowler&Fowler's suggestion. We need a representative set of images. India is not uniformly picturesque as the article images seem to suggest. AshLin (talk) 06:56, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
There is no one image that shows the different types of people of India. There was a long discussion about this before and the consensus was that it's impossible to show India's different types of people in one image (North India, South India, West Indian, Eastern Indian, tribals, lower caste, upper caste, Hindu, Muslim, CHristian, Sikh, Jewish, rich, poor)... all these aspects of India can not be shown in one image. It's better to just have a map. Nikkul (talk) 02:45, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
Fowler&fowler's images
Here are some images of people that I found in the WikiCommons category "People from India." The captions were added quickly, whatever came to me. They are not meant to suggest final captions, pass or fail. Will add more images. These are not pictures of the "underbelly," just pictures of ordinary Indians matter-of-factly (even proudly) doing the things they do. The underbelly part is trickier, and I'm not sure I found anything in the Commons collection that would pass muster.
A. People from Uttarakhand
1.Garhwal, beautiful picture, showing children in woollen handmedowns with their grandmother. What pride and dignity.
2. A woman in Uttarakhand sharpening her harvesting sickles, holding the whetting metal between her toes, showing effortless skill, the vacuum flask, which might be the photographer's, a reminder of the timelessness of her technology.
3. A Yoga instructor in Rishikesh sitting on a bench with a bag of groceries. Love his hands.
4.Kumaon, a boatman on the Nainital Lake, with a superbly bronzed face, and faraway look.
B. People from Bihar
1. The stoicism of the afflicted in the Kosi flood of 2008.
2. A little wearily, a man watches the on-going construction of his house in Chandesh, Bihar.
3. Unselfconsciously showing what it takes to make the ubiquitous fuel of rural India.
4. How many hands does it take to pull off a man's first hair cut.
1. The mammals of New Digha, great and small, waiting for tea and snacks.
2. A day at the races.
3. The beachcombers of Udaipur Sea Beach, West Bengal
4. Ploughing on the other hand is work.
I'm tired now and have to stop. Sorry, many states have been left out. If you'd like to add pictures, please go to the WikiCommons "Category:People of India by state" and pick your state and pictures. Fowler&fowler«Talk»21:26, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
PS I've now gone through all the subfolders in WikiCommons collection "Category:People from India," although I didn't always look at the sub-sub-... folders. I've tried to keep in mind Saravask's detailed and excellent remarks and admonitions (thank you for them) and Pfly's superb comments. Here is a final four, Group I, from India:
This work contains material which may portray one or more identifiable persons alive or deceased recently. The use of images of living or recently deceased individuals is, in some jurisdictions, restricted by laws pertaining to personality rights, independent from their copyright status. Before using this content, please ensure that you have the right to use it under the laws which apply in the circumstances of your intended use. You are solely responsible for ensuring that you do not infringe someone else's personality rights. See our general disclaimer.
Taking a picture of a person in a public space: Does not require consent
Publishing pictures of a person in a public space: Does not require consent (with exceptions)
Commercial use of a published picture of a person in a public space: Requires consent (as per above)
In general you are free to take pictures for private use of other people in public areas under the Constitution of India (CoI) article 19, however publishing a photo in a manner that might be "embarrassing, mentally traumatic" or causing "a sense of insecurity about activities" is illegal under the CoI article 21. (See: "Protection of celebrity rights - The Problems and the Solutions" (PDF). Journal of Intellectual Property Rights. 11: 415–423. 2006-11. Retrieved 2011-09-01. {{cite journal}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help))
Most of these pictures have been taken in public places. Please remember that I have not (with two exceptions, both public scenes) added my own pictures, but simply picked ones that are already in the WikiCommons collection. Interestingly, a recent Misplaced Pages Featured Picture of the DayFile:Kutia kondh woman 3.jpg, labeled F1 below, was indeed taken in a private setting, and even carries the "personality rights" template. If "personality rights" worries don't prevent such a picture from being seen by millions, they shouldn't prevent my chosen pictures from being added to the India page.
Finally, as someone who a few years ago was persistently promoting the image File:Indiadem.jpg on this page, you should know better than to profess concern about "privacy rights." This picture was not only not public, but, its WikiCommons and Flikr pages both came with this vignette: "The same lady as in the earlier post. I asked if she could lift her veil. She answered that her father-in-law forbade it. Her friends teased her calling her 'Aishwarya Rai' ;) and I joined in the fun too. She obliged and the smiles were all around." If you don't think she was embarrassed, let alone traumatized, why this belated worry about others that show unrepentant calm or glee on their faces and have no fathers-in-law in sight? Fowler&fowler«Talk»02:34, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
Nikkul's remarks
These images do not show all aspects of India's demographics! There is no one image that can show all different type of people in India. That is exactly why it was decided by a LARGE number of people to just keep a map/infographic.Nikkul (talk) 01:50, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
Here are the problems I have with these images:
None of these pictures show anything relating to India's economy ... women standing in line? man on a boat? woman staring at ground? married couple?
One image can not represent all Indians. ...North Indian, South Indian, Eastern Indian, West Indian, Hindu, Muslim, Upper Cast, Lower Caste, Tribals, ....how can you show all of these things in one image?
Bad Quality- The subjects seem like they are not ready for the picture...guy staring at the ground, girls looking away...I don't see how these are good quality pics
There is already an img in Economy section with man and 2 oxen...this shows the reality of India far better than these ridiculous images above
Looking at it some more, yea, the sky is not great. At first I thought it had a nice misty dawn thing going, but looking more closely I mainly see the JPG artifacts. Pfly (talk) 05:48, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
RegentsPark's comments and uploads
I uploaded a couple of school pictures from Orissa. Feel free to use them.
Added another one where the kids are not looking directly at the camera. Admittedly, I'm no photographer (and have some equally bad ones from village schools in Tanzania to prove it!) but I like the smiling one better. The kids were actually laughing at something the teacher said and the camera just happened to be in the front. Also, the school room shows its decrepit condition more in the new image. . --regentspark (comment) 19:13, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
From a purely photographic aesthetic point of view, I like F3 and H4 the best. ...though if the point is to show people, perhaps H4 is less than ideal, as you can't see the man's face. Pfly (talk) 03:30, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
Thanks everyone, especially Saravask, for your comments. The captions I wrote, in a hurry, in part to draw in the reader, may have actually been a distraction, for they were often inaccurate, but more importantly they didn't always highlight what was important in the image. But, anyway, what's done is done.
The images: All in all, I guess I'm more accepting of image quality inadequacies if the picture conveys something new or special. That, personally for me, was true for pretty much all the pictures I picked. (The issue of whether a picture has relevance for an article section is different of course, and, it's true, I didn't pay much attention to that, except at the very end.) Here are some examples of poor image, but great affect.
The Nainital boatman (A4). He might be blending in with his background or his jacket, but for me the picture is as much about his appearance. The three layers of clothing, the big wrist watch, the boots with nice tread, the folding umbrella. He is no cowering Nainital boatman of a generation ago, when people in the Kumaon were much poorer.
The Kosi flood (B1) too has obvious image issues (pretty bad really), but for me all that is outweighed by the stoic look on the faces, even on that of the children, in the face of the great anxiety they must have been experiencing.
The three lines in girls school (C1): Again, the sky is bleached, but for me the clincher was the three runner rugs (improvised?), that the girls are standing on barefooted. That Zen-like visual order in India was something new for me.
Man driving bullock cart (D4): True its over-cropped, (and I didn't mean "killer" in the sense of dangerous, only in the sense of "killer eyesight" or "killer recipe"), but what is visible of the bulls, the horns and heads, is superbly healthy and vital, a contrast to the tired, overworked animals you see on the Indian street.
And, so it goes ... I tend to agree with Saravask and Pfly that we should set the image quality bar high, but perhaps we can make some exceptions here and there if the image content is exceptional. Fowler&fowler«Talk»11:24, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
Comment: I don't see how any of these images are encyclopedic? Misplaced Pages is not a tourist brochure. Misplaced Pages is not an art/photography exhibit. Images need to relate to the content they describe. None of these images relate to India's economy. Nikkul (talk) 01:55, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
Comment from Qwyrxian
Fowler&Fowler asked me on my talk page to comment here. This is not an article I've edited before, but taking a fast-paced trip through the page to look at the images, I agree with the idea that it looks most lifeless. Currently in the article, only 5 of the articles contain people; 2 include them only as tiny barely discernible figures (the Parliament and cricket pictures), 2 of the others are politicians (Gandhi and the G8 shot), and only one is of a "normal" person (the farming picture). For a country with such diversity of people and life, it seems like more pictures of real Indians living their lives might be good. Obviously, the concern is where to put them, as the article already has quite a few pictures. Generally, I'm not a fan of galleries, but in some special cases I can live with them. I could handle a well-selected gallery (maybe 4-5 pictures--that is, one line only) at the bottom of the Demographics section. Of course, this won't represent everyone...but I don't think 100 pictures could come close to capturing a small part of Indian's socio-cultural diversity. Looking at Fowler's options so far, I like (and this is half esthetic and half the idea of trying to capture shots of people really "living"), I like A2, B3, C3, D3, E1, F4, G2, G3, H4, I2, and I5. One thing that should be done is to make sure that we don't select a full set of pictures that give the impression that India is entirely rural/farming; it would be good to add some more urban/"modern" pictures as well. I hope this helps. Qwyrxian (talk) 04:25, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
Comment from Ravichandar84
Most of the photos, I observe, are of men and women busy in their day-to-day life activities. I feel that it would have been better if we had more pictures of people involved in traditional arts like a Keralite in a Kathakali performance, etc.
Response by Nikkul: I agree. These pics above don't show anything economic or demographic (women standing in line?, man staring at the ground?)...I do not like any of them. Nikkul (talk) 01:51, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
Response from Fowler&fowler: Ravichander84, the way I see it, the Children from Bomdila image is too low-res. Saravask has asked us to pick images that are at least 1K x 1K pixels. The Sikh farmer image has high enough resolution, but it's sky is bleached out. So, it would make the cut either in image quality. Fowler&fowler«Talk»17:36, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
Redtigerxyz's query: Comments requested
Is the proposal to have a collage or changing random pictures or 1/2 permanent pictures? Depending upon the answer of this fundamental query, I reserve my comments. --Redtigerxyz18:12, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
Hi, I don't know what precisely Saravask has in mind, but since we had rotating pictures earlier, its probably best to make your comments with that end in mind. If nothing else, it will help in making a short list. Thanks. Fowler&fowler«Talk»21:45, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
Oh no!: G4 - Reason: Non-Indians have a notion (or atleast had in past) that Indians use elephants for daily trnsportation. Like commuting from home to work-place. They leave their homes in Thane, feed their elephants with bananas & start on the ride to their office at CST. I think this image will just strengthen their doubt.
Ok ok types: Rest all.
Suggestions-
For repesenting people of India in one snap, one can try & catch hold of a pic showing kids in traditional dresses ready for some fancy competition. (Dont ask me how to get it. You people know more than me.)
A snapshot from old Mile Sur Mera Tumhara video could also show a lots of variety in costumes.
A pic representing technologically advanced Indian society should be added. Refrain adding a stallite launch. That doesnt represent general masses.
There's a good point about current images. I was looking at the map in Demographics and realised that the densely populated area I was staring at was Bangladesh, so perhaps that's not the best image for this page. There's little I can add to Saravask's immense breakdown, and I agree with his dislike of posed photos. A pose loses the story the photo may otherwise have had. The photos Saravask chose are all good, although I'm quite partial to A4, B3, and C4 despite their being on Saravask's naughty list (and despite C4 looking into camera, it looks caught in the moment rather than posed), which I feel are all very interesting shots in their own ways. A rotation in demographics could be a quite good idea. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 13:32, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
Bill william compton's comments
Few images I'd like to see in Economy section are D4, F4, H4, I6, I8. D4, F4 and H4 are directly or indirectly related to agriculture—to depict that India is an 'agriculture major economy', and this sector is still experiencing stagnation with a low average annual growth.
Response to Bill william compton: The Apatani image was indeed a fixed (i.e. non-rotating) image on the India page for some two or three years. It was ultimately removed by an opposition led primarily by user:Nikkul who was dead set against it. The other images don't pass Saravask's image quality recommendations: they are not high-res enough. Also, I'm concerned that they are pictures of people dressed in "tribal" costumes for the benefit of tourists. It gives the wrong impression that people in the north east commonly wear these clothes. The last picture doesn't really show people, except in an unrecognizable conglomeration. It would be more appropriate for culture if it didn't have the image quality issues. Regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk»18:22, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
AshLin's comments
Due to limited access/broken connectivity, I'll just say I agree that we need more people oriented images and not just shiny ad-like images. India is NOT shining everywhere. When I get my connectivity back, I would be able to participate more fully in specifics. AshLin (talk) 17:07, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
Image Changes
Can we please discuss image changes before making them on the main page? I have noticed a lot of image edits without discussion from User:Saravask and others made without any sort of discussion whatsoever. I know we have all made our mistakes, but from now on can we please try to discuss image changes before making them on the main page? Nikkul (talk) 20:20, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
Hmmm, Nikkul. I find that a couple of days ago, you had yourself changed an image of Kedar Range with one of generic Himalayas with an edit summary "added better pic showing actual mountains" which was reverted by Fowler&Fowler. FYI the image change was suggested by me in this thread to replace the very one you added once again. In this I see shades of WP:OWN since this image was uploaded by you from Flickr. The Kedar range is a better image of a mountain than India_north.jpg, aside from a more relevant context, so your caption is also misleading. Anyway, I assume you have learnt better. I support your reminder to discuss things before making changes to an FA, however well-intentioned. AshLin (talk) 06:53, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
Comment: I reverted the image to the ORIGINAL one that was there before someone unilaterally changed it to the current image. Yes that image was brought to Misplaced Pages by me (like hundreds of others I have brought), but the reason I changed it was because I was reverting to the original image. The original image was discussed long time back and agreed upon by many editors. Someone changed that image to their own without discussing. That image is not photographed by me, and I don't care who brings it to Misplaced Pages. All I care about is that images that are added to this page look decent and are added with consensus. Nikkul (talk) 01:32, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
The current image was not unilaterally placed but after discussion and consensus. Kindly read the link I provided. The current image which replaced by your earlier choice has better encyclopaedic value and was after a consensus on this talk page. AshLin (talk) 17:00, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
Can you please do one proposal at a time...what's the rush? doing demographics, economy, politics, etc at the same time just confuses everyone...why don't you wait on the demographics and govt proposals until after the economy propsal has been decided upon. Nikkul (talk) 01:44, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
Proposal 1- shows part of bldg Proposal 2- shows majority of bldg
Proposal 1 shows only a section of the bldg, a majority of which is a blank wall. Why not show the whole building?. I have proposed a picture, Proposal 2, (where you can actually see the majority of the bldg) which I feel is much better. Please comment. P.S.- both pics were taken by the same photographer on the same day, so quality is the same. Nikkul (talk) 01:44, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
BSE image
The current image has too many distracting elements: trees, buildings. I like the old one or the one in BSE article which shows the building more, with much distractions.Redtigerxyz06:45, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
Sorry, I didn't realize that the demographics map has been changed. I don't remember the old map very well, but it was clearly about population density, and had a scale bar (with units) etc that told you what a shade of color meant. The new map seems to be a railway connectivity map, which is a little confusing. But, mainly there is no color scale bar. We come away knowing that the Gangetic plain is more populated, but that is about all. If there were issues with the old map, I'm sure it could be improved. Fowler&fowler«Talk»17:14, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
Israel, S. (editor); Sinclair, T. (editor) (26 January 2001), Indian Wildlife, Insight Guides (2nd ed.), Geocenter International, ISBN978-9812345554{{citation}}: |first= has generic name (help)
Economy Image Change to Cow Milking- NO! This looks ridiculous! At least the paddy image shows shows agriculture.
Dabbawallah staring at the Ground- This also looks terrible. Dabbawallas contribute a tiny amt to the Indian economy- WP:Relevant
Children sitting on the ground- No. This is not encyclopedic
Taj Mahal image blocked by people- The original image is a FEATURED Image! It is MUCH better than your proposal.
Old Men playing Unknown Game- Cricket is the biggest craze in India. There is NO reason not to keep the current cricket image. Nikkul (talk) 05:09, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
Although I had initially opposed the idea of rotation as suggested by Saravask 3 and 1/2 years ago, I am now more sympathetic to it. I feel that the economy section can have two rotating images in each location rather than just the one. However, I don't support having too many images in a rotation template: the reader doesn't see them often enough for visual impact.
As for the changes suggested by Saravask, (a) the Man and calf sharing milk is an good addition to the paddy fields with wind turbines image as representatives of the economy of rural India. Similarly, (b) the dabbawalla image is an excellent addition to a rotating template on the urban economy; the dabbawalla, after all, is an urban phenomenon. It should be complemented with an image of the modern Indian economy. While the Stock Exchange image is sort of half OK, I think a good image of something explicit in the software or industrial sector would be a better replacement for it in a second Economy rotation template. (c) I support the inclusion of the children eating kheer image in the demography section. While the image may not be geographically representative of the people of India (which image is?), it is representative of a major feature of India's demography: that a large proportion of its people are young, even youngsters, and, of those, a majority are poor, but now receiving an education (and free school lunches). (e) I support the replacement of the current image of the Taj Mahal for reasons I have given in the section below. (f) I also support the inclusion of the men playing parcheesi image along with the cricket image in a rotating template of two (again for reasons I have given in the section below). Fowler&fowler«Talk»14:19, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
I've few concerns. Bombay Stock Exchange is like backbone of Indian economy, replacing it with dabbawala doesn't seem a wise decision. I don't understand how "Children eating kheer and puri" represents Indian demography; for this we can have a rotation template containing images like Sikh farmer, Kondh tribal woman, etc. I'm not against of Joueursindienspushkar but it wouldn't be appropriate in article as at present "Sport" section doesn't say anything about traditional Indian sports/games. — Bill william compton14:26, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
Disruptive Image Changes-- Removing featured images without discussion or consensus.
Misplaced Pages policy states that major changes must be first discussed and agreed upon on the Talk page BEFORE they are implemented on the main page. User: Saravask has been adding images as he pleases without any discussion or consensus.
I left a message for him on User:Saravask Talk page asking him to stop unilateral edits, I also made a section here asking people to discuss image changes first. But he has continued to add images the way he feels.
HereHe changed a FEATURED Taj Mahal image to another one with NO DISCUSSION whatsoever!
Here He changed the Biodiversity Image Rotation (which had multiple pics that had been agreed upon by 20+ users) to just 2 images with no discussion.
Here he replaced an image in the Government section with an image of the interior of the parliament WITHOUT any discussion!
Here he changed an economy image also without any discussion.
Here he added an Environment image with no discussion or consensus.
Here he changed a Defense image with no discussion on talk.
Here he has added his own images of BSE without waiting for consensus on the Talk page.
These edits above are extremely disruptive. Misplaced Pages's policy is to discuss major changes before. User;Saravask has started an edit war by adding his images directly with no discussion. We need to stop such disruptive behavior. Whenever I have reverted these undiscussed edits, User:Fowler&fowler reverts them back. Nikkul (talk) 04:41, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
I have been a regular visitor of the India page and the image changes were unwarranted. The image-war is a pointless waste of time. As per WP:Consensus changes should be made after reaching a consensus and not the other way 'round.
PS: The previous Taj Mahal image was awesome. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 167.219.48.10 (talk • contribs) 08:30 17 October 2011
As someone who has edited this page for five years, this is how I see the images problem. A Featured Article (FA) is vetted by the Misplaced Pages community initially in its Featured Article Candidacy and then, if it aims for longevity, in Featured Article reviews. A featured article candidate, in turn, is judged by the WP:FA Criteria. Among these are 1(a) FA is well-written, 1(b) FA neglects no major facts or details, 1(c) claims in an FA are verifiable against high-quality reliable sources, 1(d) FA represents views fairly and without bias. The Featured Article Criteria, however, say precious little about the images accompanying the text; the third criterion merely says: 3. Media. It has images and other media where appropriate, with succinct captions, and acceptable copyright status. Over the years various people have tried to make Misplaced Pages-wide improvements to the image policy, but with little success so far here, i.e. in relation to images in Featured Articles.
Deciding which images are appropriate for this featured article is an issue that has dogged this article for all five years that I've worked on it. In the days when user:Nichalp watched over the article, he largely averted dealing with the issue by restricting images in a Featured Article to Featured Pictures; however, since Featured Pictures tend to be visually aesthetic, they often feature people or natural scenery or people in natural scenery. In other words, Nichalp's approach certainly addressed the image equivalent of criterion 1(a) above, but not of 1(b), 1(c), and 1(d). To address the issue of 1(b), Saravask, some 3 and 1/2 years ago, single-handedly both suggested the idea of rotation and himself designed (i.e. programmed) the rotation template. Once the rotation template was ready, a number of people submitted various candidates and decisions were made.
Problems 1(c) and 1(d), however, have remained. Pictures, by accompanying texts, make certain claims too. If nothing else, they purportedly support the claims in the text. While we can't exactly produce reliable sources (a la 1(c)) for an image, we can, as a community, do our best to make sure that the pictures are a generally accurate description of the scene they represent. Similarly, the images version of 1(d) would suggest that images be a fair description of reality they represent. A digitally altered (airbrushed) image is a violation of 1(c); a pure pristine unpeopled image of the Taj Mahal is a violation of 1(d), for, if you have lately been to the Taj Mahal, as I had the privilege of doing some time ago, you will realize that it is impossible to see it now without a vast throng of attendant people (to which you are yourself contributing of course).
I believe it is the issues in 1(c) and 1(d) that Saravask is trying to address in his latest effort on this page. The current cricket image File:IPL T20 Chennai vs Kolkata.JPG is a fine image, but it is hardly representative of "sport" as it is enjoyed the vast multitude of India's people; playing cricket in a village field or a city street, or watching cricket on television, might be more representative in that regard. The image of the men playing parcheesi, File:Joueursindienspushkar.jpg is meant to address the latter issue. It shouldn't, in my view, replace the cricket image, but rather be added to a cricket image in a rotating template.
We should certainly proceed by consensus, but be also aware that over the years, people have added digitally enhanced images of one view of India or images that highlight only the shining urban India. Those images will need to be balanced. That is what Saravask is aiming to do. He may have hurried things along a bit, but he has the best intentions and, behind him, a superb history of contributing to this page. Regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk»13:13, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
I'm personally uneasy when I see wholesale changes to a contentious article and suggest that going slow may not be a bad thing. Better to build consensus on the talk page because that will increase the staying power of the chosen images. --regentspark (comment) 14:23, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
I wouldn't go that far because Saravask is acting in good faith to improve the article and the images clearly need changing. But, in a contentious article, it is better to seek consensus before making changes. --regentspark (comment) 15:12, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
Nikkul is over-exaggerating the case; it is not highly disruptive, he is not assuming good faith when he so proclaims. AGF the matter needs to be discussed here and Saravask asked to discuss each of his image changes including those recently made. Let us justify them by consensus or overturn his edits. AshLin (talk) 15:21, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
Nikkul, I can't speak for others, but I am myself perfectly capable of reading your posts without the boldfacing. If you need to emphasize something, please consider italicizing it instead. I tend to get headaches with too much boldfacing and tend to avoid reading boldfaced content. Regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk»17:15, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
That's funny because whenever I try to revert User:Saravasks's undiscussed changes, you revert them back with no explanation. Obviously, the boldfacing is necessary. Nikkul (talk) 03:39, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
I'm afraid that we're getting ahead of ourselves and we need to slow down. Let us consider one section at a time, and start with "Demographics." Let us go back to considering the images upstairs (as representatives of Demographics only) and hearing all opinions on them. Let us put off even suggestions of changes to the other sections until we've sorted out demography. I don't know if Saravask has actually changed any images yet, but if he has, I'd request him to change them back to the originals until we've sorted out the demography image(s). (This of course doesn't apply to the Himalayas image submitted by AshLin which already has consensus.) Fowler&fowler«Talk»
Makes sense to me. The many images posted above and lengthy threads has been too much for me to get through and offer help or ideas. If it was done in smaller bits I might be able to keep up. This page is by far the busiest I routinely watch. Average of about 20,000-30,000 views a day. Over 2,400 editors watching. Wow. Pfly (talk) 17:19, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
I'm all for 'slow' (my spouse will say that the word defines me!). I think Saravask has brought some important points about photographic quality into the discussion and this is a good time to pick images. But it is probably better to do it in a manageable way, one section at a time. Fowler, do you want to take the lead in laying out the choices? Something along the lines of "current image" "alternative image(s)" for demographics would seem to the the way to go. --regentspark (comment) 17:45, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
Is it possible to have a slide show (of the kind found in most newspaper web sites today) instead of a rotation? This would give a reader more control, and also immediate access to all images. I would much rather have a slide show in each section than a rotation template. Fowler&fowler«Talk»17:09, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
I did read the two threads. The first discussion seemed inconclusive. The other, 2009, discussion was about random images appearing on a Misplaced Pages page from a collection of College Alumni photos and there were concerns both about the instability of the page and the unworthiness of the exercise. Here, all the images are present on the page at all times; nothing changes from day to day. It is just a different version of "Gallery," which doesn't take as much room and allows the reader to view the images one by one in the same (one picture) image space. In the Einsteinian view of things, space has been converted into time. Fowler&fowler«Talk»17:55, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
We currently don't have any pictures in demographics.
We need to decide two questions here.
1. Do we want one fixed image or a set of rotating images and, if the latter, how many?
2. Which images do we want?
Sorry, but we have renumber them (starting with K). I have also taken the liberty of including many Misplaced Pages Featured images, which I hadn't before. The candidates are:
K12. Sikh pilgrim after ritual bath at the Harmandir Sahib (Golden Temple) in Amritsar, India. (FP and Misplaced Pages picture of the year 2009.)
In light of remarks by Redtigerxyz and AshLin, I'm adding 24 more images here. Ever state and religion in India is now represented with the exception of Andaman Islanders and Indian Jews, both, sadly, dying communities. Here are the rest:
Wow! So hard to choose, these are all amazing pictures. My choices (in order): K12, K3, K5, K7, K8, K9, K10. For this section, I prefer the pictures that show a specific demographic/ethnic group rather than generic people. --regentspark (comment) 20:32, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
Rotation, 8 7 (preferably with slide-show capability).
Random order but with improved captions (preferable with hyperlinks which lead onto interesting stuff). Too few images to choose eight images from. Will go alongwith community. AshLin (talk) 03:08, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
I have no opinion about rotation vs fixed, and am about to go to bed, so will keep this simple for now. It occurs to me that images on Misplaced Pages are first seen as thumbnails and then, if one wants to see more, larger. With that in mind, as well as the idea that these pictures are supposed to show people, I like File:Young muslim woman in the Thar desert near Jaisalmer, India.jpg and File:Meghalaya Khasi Woman.jpg. Also I should say I am nearly totally ignorant of the various ethnicities of India. I am liking these pictures for their photography and showing of people, especially at thumbnail size, not for anything to do with India's ethnicities. Also, these comments are done quickly at with me tired and about to sleep. Perhaps tomorrow I will take a closer look. Pfly (talk) 09:08, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
Sorry to jump in here directly but there are 4635 communities (castes) in India (258900 persons per community if you do an average) according to the Anthropological Survey of India. These are divided in to rural, urban, rich, poor, Hindu, Muslim, Christian and may look completely different in images due to different fashions and attires. For example, the Roman Catholic Brahmins look completely different from other Brahmins (say Chitpavan Brahmins) of the Konkan region and there is no uniformity even within the Konkani people of the same region. This is just a stretch of land that is 30 kilometers in width in the state of Maharashtra.
We need to determine what is due and what is not and then include images that win the weight race.
The proposal above is heavily biased against south Indians, not representing Tamil Nadu, Karnataka, Kerala at all and gives undue weight to non-elite communities of north India.
In summary, no one picture nor a rotation of 100 images will ever be able to represent even 10% of the 4,635 communities in India. Zuggernaut (talk) 03:10, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
Zuggernaut raises good points but these are not easily addressable in quick time frame. I suggest, we start of the rotation with images chosen above with consensus, and at the same time explore a list of attributes to be found in the many images to be displayed in the rotation. We may improve the rotation as he suggests by chnging images one by one later. AshLin (talk) 03:27, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
The selection currently proposed for demographics does lack pictures from the South, but the original selection upstairs did not: it had some dozen pictures. Those will now appear in image proposals for the Economy and Culture section. Overall, we will have reasonable geographical balance. Fowler&fowler«Talk»04:19, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
Though Zuggernaut makes a good point, I think it better to select pictures that are visually appealing for this article than it is to focus on WP:DUE with a rough attempt to ensure geographic balance across the page. As Zuggernaut also points out, the page is never going to be able to achieve balance anyway, so characteristics like photographic quality, interestingness of the subject, and visual appeal should be the focus here. And, as the pictures themselves testify, India's diversity is easily represented. --regentspark (comment) 09:23, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
Agree with RegentsPark, it's impossible to balance the article considering highly diverse demographics of India; so, I don't think we even need to try. Focus should be on to have a good collection of images, without exaggerating on any specific geography. — Bill william compton11:24, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
Current selection is highly biased one: Too much representation of tribals, Arunchal, Rajasthan, MP. No Gujarat, Maharashtra, Karnataka, Kerala, TN, Andhra, Kashmir, Sikkim, Bengal. No sign of Buddhism, Jainism. If a suitable set of neutral images is not found, it is best to retain the map and not add any images till there is a clear consensus to add images.--Redtigerxyz17:20, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
Reply to Redtigerxyz: From the old selection above, I have included here only the pictures which satisfied two criteria: (a) people had already voted for them in the previous discussion, and (b) they were not fit for inclusion in other article sections such as Economy or Culture. In other words, they are mostly portraits. To these pictures I added Misplaced Pages Featured Pictures. It is true that the selection is geographically biased, but that is mainly because the Indian FPs are geographically biased. The lack of geographical coverage will be made up in the other sections by complementary biased selections, and together these will add up to a approximately unbiased whole. I believe this is a good place to start, otherwise there will never by any pictures anywhere on the India page, or for that matter anywhere on Misplaced Pages. Your argument applies as much to the Ajanta Image or the Gandhi-Nehru image in the History section as it does to the "demographic" images. Fowler&fowler«Talk»17:34, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
To Redtigerxyz, AshLin and others who would like to have more choices: I went through some 10,000 image files on WikiCommons. With whatever I found there, in in some cases on Flikr, I've created a subpage, User:Fowler&fowler/Additional Images for India Demography, of my user page, which has 24 more images from all the remaining regions and religions of India. The only two left our are: the native Andaman Islanders and the Indian Jews, both, sadly, dying communities. Would you like me to add the images here? You'll certainly have more choices (a total of 36), but it will also be more work. Let me know. Regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk»00:53, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
Honestly, I am a bit uncomfortable that these images have been handpicked just by User:Fowler&fowler and we have only these options. I think it would be much better if we waited for one more week for more editors to add their proposals for demographics images before we voted.
Also, most of these images are of tribals and Eastern India, with no representation of Buddhists, Muslims, etc. Also, there are no pics from several large states like Gujrat, Maharashtra, Karnataka, Tamil Nadu, Kerala, Andra Pradesh, J&K, Punjab etc. This is clearly WP:Undue. I feel it is best to wait and ask other users to also add their pics before voting. Does anyone else feel the same way? Nikkul (talk) 02:07, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
Apparently, you didn't read my post above. I've now moved the remaining 24 images to the collection above, making it a reasonably unbiased collection of 36 images. Please view them. Fowler&fowler«Talk»03:25, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
Nikkul, the best way to get over the discomfort is to find and suggest more images especially regarding those peoples, aspects you feel are left out. AshLin (talk) 04:05, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
MangoWong: Zuggernaut is not respecting the time order of the posts here, and thereby changing the meaning of the threads. He has done this before. He, moreover, has an interaction ban with me. I have been relaxed with him, but it doesn't mean there is endless rope. Fowler&fowler«Talk»04:36, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
Instead of being relaxed on Zuggernaut, you have been taking undue advantage of Zuggernaut's interaction ban with you. And since Zuggernaut has an interaction ban with you, that is precisely the reason why Zuggernaut has to avoid giving the impression that Zuggernaut may be responding to you. That is probably the reason for Zuggernaut's post being out of time order. What's so hard to understand about that?MW04:51, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
Zuggernaut made his post after I made mine. Moreover, he says, "The recently expanded gallery ..." Who is he responding to? I expanded the gallery, not Nikkul. So, why the pretence that he somehow was responding to Nikkul? Anyway here is his post. Fowler&fowler«Talk»05:05, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
Zuggernaut was saying something to Nikkul. Now you have made it appear that Zuggernaut may have been saying something to you. I think there is something misleading to the present arrangement and the original arrangement was more representative of what was intended by ZMW05:21, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
The recently expanded gallery is an improvement and a step in the right direction. However, I am still with Redtigerxyz and Nikkul for some additional reasons listed below:
The urban population of India is close to 30% and all we see in the proposed image gallery is everything but that. We should include an image that represents the urban Indian.
Our focus should be on including images that do justice to the subject as well as to the quality of the picture (but this is a secondary criterion).
Selecting and captioning images on the basis of castes or tribes is not fair or even offensive.
There is a sizeable Indian diaspora outside of India so a image should be reserved for them
Lastly, I am fully with Redtigerxyz - if we cannot find images, leave the map there. We can separately setup an initiative and a team that works on getting the images we are looking for. We can ask volunteers who have worked considerably in the areas of images to work on this. Zuggernaut (talk) 03:36, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
A full 13 out of 36 images are of urban India. What is a street cobbler in Delhi if not urban? What are school girls in Calcutta if not urban? What is the woman in Mahabalipuram if not urban? Or schoolgirls in Mumbai, or street vendor in Hyderabad, ... Fowler&fowler«Talk»05:09, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
As for the diaspora, they are citizens of whichever country they live in. They contribute to the ethnic diversity of that country, not of India. By that standard, the demographics page of the United Kingdom should have pictures of Australians, New Zealanders, South Africans, Canadians, and Americans ... Maltese, Falklanders, and Gibraltar-ians. Fowler&fowler«Talk»05:27, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
I think that if anyone thinks the photos posted for debate so far are not enough, they should find and post others--while at the same time trying to keep things relatively manageable and not overwhelming. Obviously, India is extremely diverse, ethnically, and it is clearly impossible to show decent quality photos of all Indians (unless perhaps Indian editors here go out and start taking good photos of people and uploading them to the Commons! hint hint). Also, while the differencies between Indian ethnicities may be obvious to Indians, for many in the rest of the world they are not. Myself as an example, being largely ignorant of this topic, I can see some obvious differencies in the various photos above in terms of skin color and dress, pretty much everyone looks like an "Indian" of one kind or another. Sure I can see differences between southern and northern Indians, and perhaps especially eastern Indians (if that is the right term for Assam and neighboring states), but still, to me they all look Indian. Even in America, which is nowhere near as diverse as India, people look and dress differently in many ways, but we are all Americans. Are Indians not all Indian? From some of the comments here, I get the sense that not all Indians consider other Indians truly Indian. Pfly (talk) 09:21, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
Nikkul, Saravask has made some excellent points about photographic quality above and I think we should, as simply as possible, decide on a reasonable set of images that are visually appealing and of good quality. Once we have these images in place, replacing images with others on a case by case basis will be a straightforward process. I think fowler has gone out of his way to choose appealing images and that we are at a good starting point. If we wait for more editors to add images, and if the set of images becomes too large, the process will get unnecessarily complicated and will bog down quickly. I'm sure that there are many better images out there (and know from experience that you have an excellent 'image' eye) but let's just move forward with what we have and deal with replacements once this process is completed. --regentspark (comment) 10:22, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
Agree with RegentsPark. Nikkul, Zuggernaut. We will appreciate Fowler's efforts and choose from his images. Later, you can propose changes. As AshLin said, all can judge them one by one. Saravask14:18, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
I think we should take a couple days to find relevant images of India's demographics from ALL OVER india. Once everyone is satisfied with the image pool, we can begin voting. I do not like the fact that we only have to select from images that one user has handpicked. There is no rush. It's better to wait a couple days and have others (like me) submit more images before voting. Nikkul (talk) 20:05, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
Since we seem deadlocked, I'm wondering if other people think Nikkul and others should be given until the 23rd to add more images to Fowler's choices. Saravask05:29, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
I propose that, after the GMT start of the 24th, we let Fowler—at his leisure—draw up a list of images to rotate in "Demographics". He can go through the votes and collate them as he sees fit. He can also take into consideration geographical balance if he sees a compelling need to do so. So he would be like the "Featured Article Director" of images displaying on the page. IMO that's the quickest and fairest way to finally end this interminable voting business and move on to other sections—"Economy", "Culture", etc. Saravask14:19, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
First one is better quality, but the second seems to have more historical significance. Is the first at any particularly important event? Chipmunkdavis (talk) 10:46, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
Yeah, the first has better quality, but, sadly, has been overused in the media over the years. Well, the only big thing that happened in 1937 was the Congress's victory in the first provincial elections in India, ... but with those two blokes, in those heady days, every year, and every event therein, was historic. There is a picture of the two taken just before the launching of the Quit India Movement; that truly is iconic, ... but Time magazine or Life has a copyright on it. Fowler&fowler«Talk»11:49, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
The first image was a "print of Nehru with Gandhi at the AICC meeting in Bombay, July 1946". The INC was founded in 1885, not 1937. So (in my non-specialist opinion) neither ranks above the other in terms of significance. That seems to agree with what Fowler says. As for overuse, we need to focus on the image adding maximal EV to the caption and accompanying text, not on what other media have/are done/doing. That's best done through a clear, evocative shot—regardless of how frequently others use it. That's my take. Sad about the Time/Life shot. Saravask13:31, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
:) Having uploaded the picture File:1st INC1885.jpg, I know about 1885. I meant the Congress participated in elections (to provincial assemblies) for the first time in its history (and won handily) in 1937. Many historians regard it as pivotal in turning the tide of British public opinion against continuing British presence in India, and ultimately in India achieving its independent. The other, more iconic, image taken on the eve of the Quit India resolution in 1942, it turns out, is on Misplaced Pages: File:Nehruwithgandhi1942.jpg, but not very high res. Fowler&fowler«Talk»15:32, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
Fowler, the 1885/1937 comment was directed at Chipmunkdavis, who asked about the notability of the replacement in "proposal 1". I've added your 1942 image as "proposal 2". If it indeed was shot on the literal eve of the 1942 resolution, then its caption could be made far more compelling than the current one, as in "JN, who became ..., and MG, who led ..., on the eve of their 1942 Quit India resolution." Still, I'd say the beautiful smiles in "proposal 1" are distinctive, even if overused. I'm not certain which one is better, and whether they ought to even be rotated. I'd support either and will go with consensus. Saravask14:18, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
No, no, I wasn't suggesting using this Quit India copy. It is obviously too low-res. Its sourcing/permission, moreover, is circular, a possible feint around a copyright (Time/Life?). If someone had a hi-res public domain copy, it would be different. Yeah, I vote for the smiling duo. Fowler&fowler«Talk»16:35, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
Disagree: The image displayed on this page would be thumb size. & then having clouds & hedges in that will leave a short view of the actual subject. -Animeshkulkarni (talk) 07:37, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
Do Redtigerxyz and others want Template:Image to be cropped at WP:GL/PHOTO? Or should the landscaping context kept? IMO landscaping enhances its EV, and users are always free to click the image to see all details, including the gardens. Saravask14:18, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
"The way it is" is just fine. It looks nice in the Taj Mahal lead. But if the proposal to have smaller px image (when cropping may be needed), the current one is fine then. --Redtigerxyz16:33, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
I propose that we not spend too much time on the Taj at this stage. They are both conventional images, but in Mughal aesthetics, the reflecting pool is an integral part of the image, and the lopped-off pool of the second image, likely, discordant. Let's stick with the original image for now. I'm ready to see other historical buildings there, a rotation, perhaps, with other World Heritage sites: Hampi, Qutub Minar, Bodh Gaya, and so forth. We could spend more time on this when we get to culture section images. Fowler&fowler«Talk»17:16, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
Fowler, can we not walk and chew gum at the same time? :-D This was meant to be an incremental, interim replacement of a blown image. A compromise meant to pass or fail through a quick up-or-down vote. I'd support a future (and likely far more controversial and acrimonious) sweepingly voluminous and time-consuming proposal (like the "Demographics" debate above) to replace this Taj with a rotation. And I'd prefer using I4 instead of "proposal 1"—again, I love the unconventionally beautiful human element and soft lighting. But, having read comments by Nikkul and others (and having seen his Taj-related edits, where he firmly opposes replacing it with anything else, even a rotation), I understand that my first choice (I4 alone or your rotation) is not likely to happen in a reasonable time frame. Hence this proposed short-term compromise: let's keep the Taj, but lose the glare and blown highlights and gain resolution and pistaq detail. The slightly clipped pool is a matter of weighing a trade-off: are a few more stone slabs (of which there are plenty more remaining in the image) worth losing much of the pistaq and dome detail to glare and over-exposure? IMO, no. The EV is contributed mostly by details involving the Taj proper, not so much having a full pool or a comprehensive view of the gardens. It's a matter of pragmatics. Saravask05:29, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
LOL. BTW, the pool in the current Taj is also clipped, making it just as sinful by your standards. And I4 is exuberantly idolatrous—you can hardly even see the pool; it's hidden by all those unveiled women! Here on WP, blasphemous images apparently come in threes ... Saravask14:18, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
I was in a hurry yesterday, but something was bothering me about your Taj picture (the blasphemy aside). The vanishing point (where the lines of perspective meet) is too low in the picture. That creates the lopped off effect more that actual length of pool. The other two don't have that problem. The same problem can occur when the entire reflecting pool is visible, as in this Flickr picture whose vanishing point is too high. My female tourist picture, File:GroupFromNorthEastIndiaAtTaj.jpg, has vanishing point offset to the left, but then it is not a classically symmetric picture; even so, I had considered cropping it on the right, and still could. I suspect that picture works in part because the tourists appear to be walking towards that vanishing point, an effect not evident in this Flickr picture, whose vanishing point is centered but whose humans are dispersed. I do understand that famous photographers can throw such Renaissance caution to the wind, but ... Fowler&fowler«Talk»09:32, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
Rule of thirds? A top crop could raise the VP. We can ask for a cropped version—with the VP raised to lie a third of the way up—at WP:GL/PHOTO if you want. Again, if we go by instant-runoff voting here, my first choice is for "proposal 2", second for "1". But I will go with consensus either way. When we get to the "Culture" rotation discussion, I'll be supporting your "proposal 2" Taj to go into it. I didn't propose it in the first place because, given Nikkul's comments, I didn't think such an unconventional and heavily peopled image would consensually prevail. Saravask14:19, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
Farmer image replacement
Proposal 1: Template:Image replaces Template:Image. The current image (uploaded by me) is 862 × 1,296, dingy, and non-crisp. The replacement has a partly blown sky, but was supported by several editors above. Hence I am willing to support it. Saravask14:18, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
Suport. Since when has wind power been used in Indian farming? Had the power from those turbines been going to the farmer, he'd be using an electric tractor. Fowler&fowler«Talk»17:25, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
Oppose Proposed image shows the ass of the cows and people... current image shows the front angle (looks a lot better) and the windmill shows the power generation (also important in economy) Nikkul (talk) 19:59, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
I still dont think the image showing the angle of the cow's ass is better than the current image in which you can actually see the animals and field. Nikkul (talk) 20:15, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
Nikkul's comment is pretty funny, LOL. I couldn't find anything as high-res and good-looking as Fowler's image that also had solar/wind power. This blurry image was the best I saw. If Nikkul could search Flickr and find a suitably licensed dual-use farming/energy image at least as detailed, beautiful, and high-EV as Fowler's, I don't think anyone would complain. Saravask05:29, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
I just noticed Nikkul's comment. Don't like the cow's (it's a bull, btw) ass? Well now you know what the farmer has to see 24/7. The almost blown hamstring, besides, shows what work it takes. Quite different from the Symphony of the Bulls that the other farmer is merrily conducting below the wind mills. Fowler&fowler«Talk»12:56, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
"Symphony of the Bulls?" Both pics show the same thing (a farmer plowing a field. The original pic shows a much better angle! No need to change. Nikkul (talk) 21:37, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
That's not really a farmer, you know. He's actually a disguised researcher who is studying the contribution of bovine methane to global climate change. That and testing DARPA's new-fangled invisible flatus-collection sacks. And the "maestro" in the current image, likewise disguised to facilitate his work, is investigating whether South Asian cow-song really is—as is routinely held among members of the 21st-century equivalent of the Republic of Letters—melodically more complex that modern pop music ... Saravask14:19, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
I agree with Fowler that the BSE ought to be replaced by a rotation. This proposal was merely meant as an interim stop-gap meant to last until the stalled "Demographics" mess above finally concludes and we can at last move on to "Culture" discussions. It wasn't meant to be seen as the final and irrevocable solution. But at least three users seem to want the BSE to stay, making prospects of a rotation supplanting the BSE iffy perhaps. Again, this was intended as a short-term compromise meant to effect an incremental improvement, rather than forever pre-empting a future effort at gunning for the whole hog and replacing BSE with a representative rotation. We may get to such a controversial discussion later—whether next week or next year. Saravask05:29, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
I've read some of the archives pertaining to the lead. I am wondering if we can keep the lead as historically accurate and neutral as the present one, and yet make it tighter, more interesting, better organised in a thematic and sentence-wise sense, and more redolent of "refreshing, brilliant prose".
Malapropism: "Gradually annexed and administered" implies it was "gradually administered". Either the EIC administers some particular piece of land, or it doesn't—it's binary. The "gradual" bit seems intended to convey the geographical spread of EIC administration.
Phrasing: "in the world" is redundant and connotatively carries a boosterish sense, as in "Daddy! This is the bestest iscream in the world!" It is something you see in grade-school essays, perhaps accompanied by backward-facing "k"s and loony doodles.
Sentence order. It jumps around, and is not as thematically consolidated as it could be IMO.
Transitional fillers: "in addition", "also". Not as big a deal as the above, but recasting could squeeze these out.
Enough for now. I'd rather not compose or edit proposed replacement wording myself; better to leave that to people more knowledgeable about Indian history. I'd rather merely comment. Saravask14:18, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
Just an FYI, Misplaced Pages is not a novel or epic saga. It is an encyclopedia- meaning that the page should be written in a easy-to-understand, strightforward fashion. Descriptions like "in the world" give more detail about the statistics they are talking about. If you don't have that, then the information will not be complete. Nikkul (talk) 20:14, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
How about replacing the sentence "It is the seventh-largest country by geographical area, the second-most populous country with over 1.2 billion people, and the most populous democracy in the world" with "It is the seventh-largest country by geographical area, and with over 1.2billion people is the (world's) second-most populous country and most populous democracy." I included worlds in brackets because I don't think it's necessary, but it does add to flow slightly. Thoughts? Chipmunkdavis (talk) 20:20, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
You do need "world" somewhere to provide extra context for the reader, to make him comfortable. Redundancy of that sort is a commonly used rhetorical device similar to repetition. Either "It is the world's seventh-largest country by geographical area, the second most populous country, and the most populous democracy," or "It is the seventh largest country by geographical area, the second most populous country and the most populous democracy in the world." I prefer the second. It goes better with the cadences of the language. The 1.2 billion we can do without. Fowler&fowler«Talk»23:16, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
PS If we are going to work on the lead, then do we need to pick up the version (of April? May?) that we had almost agreed on? Or, should we hold off on the lead until the pictures have been sorted out. Fowler&fowler«Talk»23:42, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
Fowler's second paragraph reads much better than its live homologue IMO. But "eginning with the Indus Valley Civilization and for much of its long history" sounds awkward (faulty parallelism perhaps)—it could use a recast, because "eginning with the Indus Valley Civilization, the Indian subcontinent was known ..." strikes me as semantically weird. The polyptotonic "independent ... independence" remains. "Here" remains. It's something that I seemed to find in every other tourist brochure in Darwin: "Here in Kakadu, outdoor enthusiasts will find breath-taking unspoiled vistas awaiting them ..."
I likewise prefer Chipmunkdavis's sentence to the live version and its periphrastic bloat. I somewhat disagree that "world" (in any form) is required (except for, as CD stated, flow); the reader is sufficiently cued by the term "country", which provides an unmistakable context—that of the 180+ UN-recognised countries. If we must have it, however, I'd prefer "world's" to "in the world" for the reason listed above. Saravask05:29, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
It would have helped had I read Saravask's first post. Agree with two points in second post. Thanks for noticing repetitions. ("Culture" too is repeated.) I have changed the paragraph in a number of places. "struggle," for example, is POV. "Noted for" probably goes better than "marked by" in the recast version. I disagree about "here." I feel it is better than "there," and invites the reader in. Other points, I remain unconvinced. Fowler&fowler«Talk»09:59, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
Not bad. A few points: (1) you've lost zorastrianism - suggest adding that back. (2) 'new nation' is not correct. If independent and independence are too much for you guys, I'd grab a thesaurus. (3) You've lost the 'names of India' parenthetical note (a sure way to increase strife) (4) the original first sentence of the second para was striking, the new version is (apologies fowler) pedestrian. (Also, was India 'known' for its culture and commerce? By whom?) --regentspark (comment) 13:27, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
I'll withhold detailed comments until RegentsPark's concerns, which I mostly share, are addressed in a new draft. I don't have an opinion about the historicity of the term "new nation"—not my ken. But I'll say this: the original start of the second paragraph indeed *was* "striking"—strikingly bizarre. It would be best to try again and craft a new sentence that all four of us can agree on, rather than merely revert to that heteroclitic hack of an eyesore. Saravask13:55, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
You're confusing Gandhi with Robespierre. Though Robespierre only got up to "created" before he was, um, cut short. (Gandhi meant 'new' in a different sense.) I guess new is fine, though reborn is more accurate. --regentspark (comment) 14:08, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
Was just kidding. Hmm, I'm just noticing Saravask's post (where did that come from?) Heteroclitic? Where is the abnormal declension? If you mean the presence of the article, "Home to the IVC and region of historic trade routes and ...," my preferred version, was tried but got replaced along the way. We can try it again. "Home to the IVC" has been around for a long time, Nichalp's time. I've been uncomfortable with "home" because the Republic of India was not exactly its home. That's why the subcontinent is there. 1) slip, (3) was left out to highlight the prose and will go back in after consensus. Yeah, "known by whom," is a tricky one, but I think there is ample evidence throughout written history that India was cultural and commercial heavyweight. Could find cites. "Commerce" is probably not right. I was trying not saddle the lead with jargon terms like "cultural and commercial wealth," which are more accurate. Suggestions are welcome. Fowler&fowler«Talk»14:32, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
Here are a less plebian version. Gotten rid of "here". Swallowing bitter bill of "India = Indian subcontinent." :) "Nationalist movement" is the term used in history books. I've brought back "struggle." ("after a movement" sounds off.) I might not have the correct "Zoroastiranism" link. :
Hmm. I'm ok with the 'fabled', 'arrived' was better than 'reached its shores', 'shaped the region's diverse culture' was better than 'helped shape its diversity', the departure of administered is good as is the rest of the last sentence. My suggestion is to stick with the original for the first two sentences and replace the last sentence with the version above. --regentspark (comment) 18:37, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
:) I take it you don't like "sweep?" :( OK, here's another:
I see all my original gripes have been resolved in this version. Thank you for the attentive wordsmithing. Comments:
I quailed when I read "land of"—"Land of Hope and Glory"? Perhaps "host to" or something else of your choosing would be better. Word-wise, everything else reads much better now. Eyesores are gone.
The all-important Gandhi is gone. I didn't mean to make you do that (if indeed you did it intentionally). Soon someone will ask for S. C. Bose to replace him. Ugh.
Dabbing between the "RoI" and "India". You've dealt with this more than I, I'm sure. Chandni Chowk to China is an example of how "arose in India" could offend. I understand why you referred to it as a "bitter ill". Perhaps it's actually needlessly divisive poison. I don't want to be the one who forces readers into swallowing it en bloc.
I know "fabled" irked rgpk (with good reason), though it didn't bother me that much—as long as it is documented, which I would guess it is, given the fable-driven Columbus and the rest. Maybe "freedom" used alone is the same? Subjective? Or not? I don't know—not conversant with the historical literature. Perhaps "political freedom" or something else would be more neutral.
I don't mean to push for the sacrificing of the staid balance/accuracy in the current lead. I asked that the revoltingly weird wording be massaged into top form and its appeal perked up a bit. There *has* to be a way to make it more compelling, and yet not throw it off-balance (perhaps due to my needling) in terms of POV. I've seen level-headed verve brilliantly pulled-off before in other serious ledes. Saravask14:19, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
Looks good to me too. Though I too am disappointed by the disappearance of MKG and would prefer to see him worded back (if I may coin a phrase). One nit, which applies to the original as well, is the arrival of the other religions. Shouldn't that be a 'from' rather than an 'in'? Not a crucial point because it will mean rewriting the entire sentence, but 'in' is factually incorrect. --regentspark (comment) 14:52, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
(@Saravask)Well, "land" is not my first choice. Probably "sweep" or "compass" is. You guys really don't like:
"Home of the Indus Valley Civilization and sweep of historic trade routes and vast empires, the Indian subcontinent was fabled for its riches for much of its long history." or
"Home of the Indus Valley Civilization and compass of historic trade routes and vast empires, the Indian subcontinent was fabled for its riches for much of its long history?" "Host" for me, in spite of the nice alliteration, has the same issues as "birthed." They are used all the time to be sure, but the imbue the subject with purposefulness. Fowler&fowler«Talk»15:29, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
PS Or even, "Home of the Indus Valley Civilization, sweep of historic trade routes, and compass of vast empires, the Indian subcontinent was fabled for its riches for much of its long history" It is the most accurate in my view. True, some might confuse the second with Dick van Dyke in Mary Poppins and the third with something you can buy in Eddie Bauer, but they can get a dictionary. Fowler&fowler«Talk»15:50, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
I don't know ... I think I read/heard stuff worded something like this in Michael Wood's pop-history India book/series. It's just ... a bit over the top (as with rgpk, my apologies). It'll take time. It'll take several tries here. I'm looking for more sublime wording, a mystique that subconsciously gets the reader more enthralled with the subject. I'm not talking about the blatant POV of revisionists, whose prose tends to be brash, brutal, and coercive—like a verbal rape. Instead, it is the poised magic of balanced, yet finely crafted, copy that is the goal. Neutral, dispassionate, yet vivid. Maybe like something you would hear from the most eloquent and vibrant professors in the "The Great Courses", which is aimed at laymen for sure, but still narrated by tenured subject experts. Or you could look at Bishonen's more recent FA ledes, though lit stuff tends to be cut much more slack in terms of encyclopedic wording—that is, it gets to be more informal and even jocose—than what is allowed here. Saravask16:42, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
Oh, no, not MW! :) I've stayed with "Home of ..." because it harkens to Nichalp and to the page's past. "Cradle of the IVC ..." would probably be my choice, when it comes to using common words. If you are looking for subtle, however, then the content itself will need to be rethought. For example, India wasn't really the land of historic trade routes, which for the most part lay just above it or just below. We might to rethink the salient points. Fowler&fowler«Talk»17:47, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
Did look at Bishonen. Beyond the obvious difference in what constitutes the encyclopedic register in the two fields, the main difference for me is that his/her articles are nowhere near as high-level as India. When you are writing a relatively low-level history, the lead can more easily express broad qualitative themes (as, for example, in my FA Political history of Mysore and Coorg (1565–1760)), but here we have four sentences for a history that has 20, 50, or 100 times the content of early-modern Mysore! (We are shackled with three formulaic paragraphs (1, 3, and 4), leaving only paragraph 2.) Subtlety here will require more than just pretty sentences; it will require an even higher-level rethink of the content. Fowler&fowler«Talk»18:17, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
PS Funny but we have boxes full of the Great Professors, some in VCR format that we can't view, including a bunch of the Dartmouth/Brown dude on Shakespeare. I could find them, but ... I don't know ... I don't think that is the issue here. I guess I'm thinking of Boileau in L'Art Poetique, "What one truly understands clearly articulates itself. The words to say it come easily." Fowler&fowler«Talk»18:29, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
Topography of India
India is a land of hills, rivers, plateaus, plains, beaches, deltas and deserts. It has much to offer to travelers and tourists. India's northern states are situated in the Himalayan Mountain Range.
India the seventh largest country in the world , is well marked with off from the rest of Asia by mountains and the sea, which gives the country a distinct geographical entity. It covers an area of 32,87,2631 sq. km. Bounded by the great Himalayas to the north , it stretches southwards and at the Tropic of Cancer, tapers off in the Indian ocean between the Bay of Bengal on the east and the Arabian sea to the west.
Lying entirely in the northern hemisphere the mainland extends measures 3214 km from north south between extreme latitudes and about 2933 km from east to west between extreme longitudes. It has a land frontier of about 15200 km. The total length of the coastline of the mainland, Lakshwadeep group of islands and Andaman and Nicobar group of islands is 7,516.5 km.
The Indian sub-continent is characterized by great diversity in its physical features .It may be divided into three broadly defined physical units:
The Himalayas and the associated mountain ranges.
The Indus Ganga-Bramha-putra plain.
The Peninsular Plateau.
India has the highest snowbound mountain range of the world, the Himalayas to its north, the humid tropical forests on the south-west coast, the fertile Brahamaputra valley, the low mangrove swamps of the Sunderbans, the Garo Hills of Meghalaya which is the wettest spot on the universe all lying on its east, the barren marshes of the Rann of Kutch, and the Thar desert with its shifting sand dunes lies towards the west.
To the north, the Himalayas stretches approximately 2400 kilometers and has the world's highest mountain peaks including Mt. Everest, Mt. K2 and Mt. Kanchenjunga. These mountains form the source of mighty rivers like Indus and Brahmaputra which flow into the Gangetic plains. These rivers cause constant erosion of the lofty mountains to build the vast alluvial plains of the Indus, Ganga and Brahamaputra. The latter two rivers form the world's largest and most fertile delta called the Brahmaputra valley before it flows out into the Bay of Bengal.
The Deccan Plateau is formed by prehistoric crystalline and lava rocks. Between the Deccan Plateau and the Gangetic plain lies a series of low mountain ranges like the Aravallis and Vindhyas. The plateau has the Eastern and Western Ghats flanking its sides. The western coastal plain is uneven and swift rivers flow through it which forms beautiful lagoons and backwaters, examples of which can be found in the state of Kerala. The east coast is wide with deltas formed by the rivers Godavari, Mahanadi and Kavery. Flanking the Indian peninsula on the western side are the Lakshadweep Islands in the Arabian Sea and on the eastern side lies the Andaman and Nicobar Islands in the Bay of Bengal.
Trasport In India
Since the early 1990s, India's growing economy has witnessed a rise in demand for transport infrastructure and services.
However, the sector has not been able to keep pace with rising demand and is proving to be a drag on the economy. Major improvements in the sector are required to support the country's continued economic growth and to reduce poverty.
Railways.
Indian Railways is one of the largest railways under single management. It carries some 17 million passengers and 2 million tonnes of freight a day in year 2007 and is one of the world’s largest employers. The railways play a leading role in carrying passengers and cargo across India's vast territory. However, most of its major corridors have capacity constraint requiring capacity enhancement plans.
Roads.
Roads are the dominant mode of transportation in India today. They carry almost 90 percent of the country’s passenger traffic and 65 percent of its freight. The density of India’s highway network -- at 0.66 km of highway per square kilometer of land – is similar to that of the United States (0.65) and much greater than China's (0.16) or Brazil's (0.20). However, most highways in India are narrow and congested with poor surface quality, and 40 percent of India’s villages do not have access to all-weather roads.
Rural Roads-
A Lifeline for Villages in India: Connecting Hinterland to Social Services and markets
Ports.
India has 12 major and 187 minor and intermediate ports along its more than 7500 km long coastline. These ports serve the country’s growing foreign trade in petroleum products, iron ore, and coal, as well as the increasing movement of containers. Inland water transportation remains largely undeveloped despite India's 14,000 kilometers of navigable rivers and canals.
Aviation.
India has 125 airports, including 11 international airports. TIndian airports handled 96 million passengers and 1.5 million tonnes of cargo in year 2006-2007, an increase of 31.4% for passenger and 10.6% for cargo traffic over previous year. The dramatic increase in air traffic for both passengers and cargo in recent years has placed a heavy strain on the country's major airports.
Passenger traffic is projected to cross 100 million and cargo to cross 3.3 million tonnes by year 2010.
Transport infrastructure in India is better developed in the southern and southwestern parts of the country
Agriculture
Agriculture in India has a long history, dating back to ten thousand years.
Today, India ranks second worldwide in farm output. Agriculture and allied sectors like forestry and logging accounted for 16.6% of the GDP in 2007, employed 52% of the total workforce and despite a steady decline of its share in the GDP, is still the largest economic sector and plays a significant role in the overall social-economic development of India.
India is the largest producer in the world of fresh fruit, anise, fennel, badian, coriander, tropical fresh fruit, jute, pigeon peas, pulses, spices, millets, castor oil seed, sesame seeds, safflower seeds, lemons, limes, cow's milk, dry chillies and peppers, chick peas, cashew nuts, okra, ginger, turmeric guavas, mangoes, goat milk and buffalo milk and meat. India is also the largest producer of millets like Jowar Bajra and Ragi. It is second only to China in the production of rice. India is the 6th largest coffee producer in the world It also has the world's largest cattle population (281 million). It is the second largest producer of cashews, cabbages, cotton seed and lint, fresh vegetables, garlic, egg plant, goat meat, silk, nutmeg. mace, cardamom, onions, wheat, rice, sugarcane, lentil, dry beans, groundnut, tea, green peas, cauliflowers, potatoes, pumpkins, squashes, gourds and inland fish. It is the third largest producer of tobacco, sorghum, rapeseed, coconuts, hen's eggs and tomatoes. India accounts for 10% of the world fruit production with first rank in the production of mangoes, papaya, banana and sapota
Science And Technology
The history of science and technology in the Indian Subcontinent begins with prehistoric human activity at Mehrgarh, in present-day Pakistan, and continues through the Indus Valley Civilization to early states and empires. The British colonial rule introduced some elements of western education in India. Following independence science and technology in the Republic of India has included automobile engineering, information technology, communications as well as space, polar, and nuclear sciences.
India is one of the top-ranking countries in the field of basic research. Indian Science has come to be regarded as one of the most powerful instruments of growth and development, especially in the emerging scenario and competitive economy.
Great Indian Scientist
Aryabhata was the first in the line of great mathematician-astronomers from the classical age of Indian mathematics and Indian astronomy. His most famous works are the Āryabhaṭīya (499 CE, when he was 23 years old) and the Arya-siddhanta.
A. P. J. Abdul Kalam, is an Aerospace engineer, professor, and chancellor of the Indian Institute of Space Science and Technology (IIST), who served as the 11th President of India from 2002 to 2007. During his term as President, he was popularly known as the People's President. He was awarded the Bharat Ratna, India's highest civilian honor in 1997.
Before his term as India's president, he worked as an aeronautical engineer with DRDO and ISRO. He is popularly known as the Missile Man of India for his work on development of ballistic missile and space rocket technology. Kalam played a pivotal organizational, technical and political role in India's Pokhran-II nuclear test in 1998, the first since the original nuclear test by India in 1974.
Armed forces
India has one of the longest military histories, dating back several millennia. The first reference of armies is found in the Vedas as well as the epics Ramayana and Mahabaratha.
India has a maritime history dating back 5,000 years. The first tidal dock is believed to have been built at Lothal around 2300 BCE during the Indus Valley Civilization, near the present day Mangrol harbour on the Gujarat coast. The Rig Veda written around 1500 BCE, credits Varuna with knowledge of the ocean routes and describes naval expeditions. There is reference to the side wings of a vessel called Plava, which give stability to the ship under storm conditions. A compass, Matsya yantra was used for navigation in the fourth and fifth century AD.
The President of India is the Supreme Commander of the Indian Armed Forces. The Indian Armed Forces is managed by Ministry of Defence (MoD) which is led by Union Cabinet Minister of Defense.
The IAF is the world's largest military forces, with roughly 1.32 million active standing army and 2.14 million reserve forces thus giving India the Third-largest active troops in the world as of 2006 after the People's Liberation Army and US Armed Forces. India's official defense budget stands at US$36.03 billion for FY2011 (or 1.83% of GDP) but the actual spending on the armed forces is estimated to be much higher than that. Undergoing rapid expansion and modernization, the Indian Armed Forces plans to have an active military space program and is currently developing a missile defense shield and nuclear triad capability. The Armed Forces of India possess nuclear weapons and operate short and intermediate-range ballistic missiles as well as nuclear-capable aircraft, and naval vessels. India is the world's largest arms importer accounting for 9% of all global imports and ranks among the top thirty in arms export. Currently, India imports close to 70% of its weapons requirements, with Israel, Russia and the United States as its top military suppliers. The country’s defence expenditure will be around US$112 billion by 2016.
Nuclear warheads
India possesses an arsenal of nuclear weapons and maintains a no-first use, non-use against non-nuclear nations and a credible nuclear deterrence policy against nuclear adversaries. India's nuclear missiles include the Prithvi, the Agni, the Shaurya, Sagarika, Dhanush, and others. India has long range strategic bombers like the Tupolev Tu-22 M3 and Tupolev Tu-142 as well as fighter jets like Sukhoi Su-30MKI, Dassault Mirage 2000, MiG-29 and HAL Tejas capable of being armed with nuclear tipped bombs and missiles. Since India doesn't have a nuclear first use against an adversary, it becomes important to protect from a first strike. Presently, this protection is provided by the two layered Anti-ballistic missile defense system.
I'm sorry, but these requests are very vague, they're massive changes, and they don't have appropriate inline references. Please could you make specific clear requests - maybe just small ones - like "Change THIS to THAT" with a specific reference? Otherwise, it is very difficult to integrate your suggestions. In addition, please see WP:NPOV and WP:TONE - some of the language is not appropriate for an Encyclopaedia. So...I'm sorry, I cannot make the wholesale changes you've asked for at this time. Could you please re-request with a shorter, clearer, more direct/referenced change? Thank you. Chzz ► 07:33, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
Infrastructure Section
I have seen many countries pages and they have this section, but Indian don't have it! United States Germany
I don't remember more, but it would be better to include this sections with subsections like: Transportation Science and Tech Education Health Energy
etc.
Here I have a little Coding, Please someone add more information to it and Place it in the article or Advise me if I am wrong.
Infrastructure
India's infrastructure is carefully planned and developed mainly by Planning Commission (India).Today, India is one of the most exciting emerging markets in the world. Skilled managerial and technical manpower that match the best available in the world and a middle class whose size exceeds the population of the USA or the European Union, provide India with a distinct cutting edge in global competition.
The road transport sector has been declared a priority and will have access to loans at favorable conditions. The Monopoly and Restrictive Trade Practices Act (MRTP Act) was passed in order to encourage large industry to enter the road sector.
The National Highways Act has been modified to help the reduction of tolls on national motorways, bridges and tunnels. Calcutta's Howrah Bridge is the world's busiest with a daily flow of 57,000 vehicles and innumerable pedestrians. Private participation in the energy sector has been encouraged with the reduction of import duties, a five-year tax exemption for new energy projects and a 16% return on equity.
The government is also following a new telecommunications policy that aims for the improvement of quality to a worldwide standard and, as a result, India could emerge as a major producer and exporter of telecommunication systems. Advantageous policies in this sector are encouraging private and foreign participation.
Over the years, ISRO has conducted a variety of operations for both Indian and foreign clients. ISRO's satellite launch capability is mostly provided by indigenous launch vehicles and launch sites. In 2008, ISRO successfully launched its first lunar probe, Chandrayaan-1, while future plans include indigenous development of GSLV, manned space missions, further lunar exploration, and interplanetary probes. ISRO has several field installations as assets, and cooperates with the international community as a part of several bilateral and multilateral agreements.
view · edit Frequently asked questions
1. Garhwal, beautiful picture, showing children in woollen handmedowns with their grandmother. What pride and dignity.
2. A woman in Uttarakhand sharpening her harvesting sickles, holding the whetting metal between her toes, showing effortless skill, the vacuum flask, which might be the photographer's, a reminder of the timelessness of her technology.
3. A Yoga instructor in Rishikesh sitting on a bench with a bag of groceries. Love his hands.
4. Kumaon, a boatman on the Nainital Lake, with a superbly bronzed face, and faraway look.
1. The stoicism of the afflicted in the Kosi flood of 2008.
2. A little wearily, a man watches the on-going construction of his house in Chandesh, Bihar.
3. Unselfconsciously showing what it takes to make the ubiquitous fuel of rural India.
4. How many hands does it take to pull off a man's first hair cut.
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1. A school in Katni, MP.
2. A Bhil mother with child and uninhibited smile.
3. Dual career couples have been around for a long time. At least ever since pottery was invented.
4. Children in Chambal eating puri and kheer, and displaying poise unseen at the tables of the well-heeled.
1. When hair shines like silk, flowers are optional.
2. Tree climber with equipment.
3. A newly married couple.
4. Man driving bullocks, superb examples of the Zebu.
1. Block printer serenely creating symmetry, Halasur Village, Karnataka.
2. Riding their proud camels past anonymous shop window, Bangalore.
3. Traditional hard hat on traditional scaffolding, Bangalore.
4. Woman draped in silk sari with brocade work, Mysore city.
1. The tattoos, the jewellery, the unworked confidence. A Misplaced Pages Featured Picture.
2. Radiant school-children, every last one smiling.
3. Women waiting for something (what?) one chilly morning in Deogarh.
4. Women's work is never done: carrying hay (jute?) in Puri.
1. The SelaQui International School in Uttar Pradesh.
2. A shopkeeper in Lucknow models a sari for a customer.
3. Women riding a motorcycle through a village in Western UP as the winter evening fog rolls in.
4. Just another day in Agra.
1. The mammals of New Digha, great and small, waiting for tea and snacks.
2. A day at the races.
3. The beachcombers of Udaipur Sea Beach, West Bengal
4. Ploughing on the other hand is work.
1. Sharing in the maternal bounty, Rajasthan.
2. Parcheesi, the national game of India, being played at the crossroads, Pushkar, Rajasthan.
3. Fishmonger in Pondicherry, Tamil Nadu.
4. Female tourists from North-East India, in sarongs and shawls, at the Taj Mahal. One of my own pictures.
5. The dabbawala in Mumbai. Pondering the placement of the 1:25 PM delivery.
6. Granite sculptor in Goa.
7. Mir Alam Mandi, a vegetable market in Hyderabad. (Two blokes are posing, but the rest couldn't care less.)
8. Bananas for sale, Trivandrum, Kerala.
A Sikh farmer from the Punjab
1. Apatani tribal women (a featured picture and my favorite)
3. Dancers from Tutsa sub tribe of Tangsa of Changlang district
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old
BSE article
K1. A boatman from Kumaon, Uttarakhand, on the Nainital Lake.
K2 A lady in Bundi, Rajasthan (WP:Featured Picture(FP))
K3. A sadhu in Varanasi, Uttar Pradesh. (FP)
K7. Women in a Gond adivasi village in Madhya Pradesh (FP).
K9. A young Bondo woman from Chattisgarh on her way to the weekly local market. (FP)
K10. A Nishi tribesman from Arunachal Pradesh wearing traditional headdress with hornbill beak. (FP)
K11. A young Muslim woman from the Thar desert, near Jaisalmer, Rajasthan. (FP)
K12. Sikh pilgrim after ritual bath at the Harmandir Sahib (Golden Temple) in Amritsar, India. (FP and Misplaced Pages picture of the year 2009.)
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K13. A Jain family praying at Shravanabelagola, Karnataka.
K14. A man in Old Cochin, Kochi, Kerala.
K15.. Two farm workers sorting egg plants in Sejwat village, Gujarat.
K16. School students in Science City Kolkata.
K17. A young woman in Mahabalipuram, Tamil Nadu.
K18. Girl students in Mumbai, Maharashtra.
K19. A man selling handicrafts in Hyderabad, Andhra Pradesh.
K20. A girl from Darp Village near Pelling, Sikkim.
K21. Buddhist monks at Hemis Gompa, Ladakh.
K22. Muslim girls in hijab in Kargil, Jammu and Kashmir
K25. Yimchunger Naga woman at the morung of Kutur village, Nagaland
K26. A Biate family of Mizoram in traditional dress.
K27. A coal miner from Bachra, Jharkhand
K28. A tea shop owner in Dharamsala, Himachal Pradesh.
K29. A girl playing a drum at the Gurgaon railway station, Haryana
K31. School children of Longa Koireng, Manipur.
K32. Children in Tripura prepare for a traditional dance.
K33. A Goan mother watching a soccer game at Agonda beach, Goa.
K34. An Indian Catholic girl's first communion.
K35. A Parsi gentleman in Calcutta, West Bengal.
K36. A street cobbler in Delhi.
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