Talk:Dominik Halmoši - Misplaced Pages

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Requested move

The request to rename this article to Dominik Halmoši has been carried out.

If the page title has consensus, be sure to close this discussion using {{subst:RM top|'''page moved'''.}} and {{subst:RM bottom}} and remove the {{Requested move/dated|…}} tag, or replace it with the {{subst:Requested move/end|…}} tag.

– Per WP:HOCKEY standard, WP consistency and common sense. HandsomeFella (talk) 20:30, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Support all as nominator. HandsomeFella (talk) 17:08, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
Oppose all: The proposed page moves fly in the face of the established Wiki-policies of WP:UE, WP:COMMONNAME, and WP:RS. Based on the comments made by the nom at the Ľubomír Višňovský RM, this RM appears to be POINTY. Dolovis (talk) 21:36, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
Rubbish. This RM goes along the WP:HOCKEY guidelines (as stated above), while it contradicts nothing at the guidelines indicated by Dolovis. He's just back in his old crusade to eradicate diacritics from wikipedia, a habit that has brought him to WP/ANI twice (at least), and where a page move ban was ultimately imposed on him for gaming the system. And this move was coming up regardless of Dolovis's RMs. Check my talkpage, where I have been preparing them for some time. HandsomeFella (talk) 22:04, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
Oppose all, as this is the English language Misplaced Pages & thus we should go with english sources. GoodDay (talk) 22:21, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
Oppose. Petr Prikryl, Jan Stransky and Jan Herman get some coverage on Google News. But most of these players have never appeared in English-language RS and should be WP:AFD'd. As long as we are keeping them, we must follow the sources that we have, namely the box score sites. These sites give their names in the current form. Kauffner (talk) 02:04, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
Oppose WP:UE, WP:UCN, WP:COMMONSENSE, "Jan Stransky" is most definitely not "Jan Stránský" in English. This person has played in Canada, and therefore appears in Canadian English language press. ; and we have the league page ; even in French language press there are no accents in Canada -- 65.94.77.11 (talk) 14:01, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
Comment treating Jan Stransky the same as the rest of the players is wrong. Jan Stransky played in North America, so is clearly different from the other players listed. (assuming the bios of the other players are complete enough to not be missing any North American play experience) 65.94.77.11 (talk) 14:03, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
It doesn't matter if Stránský (or any one else for that matter) played in North America. That doesn't change his name. It would introduce massive inconsistency in[REDACTED] if Czech ice hockey players' names were spelled differently depending on whether they played in North America or not, not to mention that that would be a totally rediculous rule. The only sustainable position is that we spell people's names correctly, to the best of our knowledge. HandsomeFella (talk) 17:06, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
WP:OFFICIALNAME , it doesn't matter what their original name is, it only matters what their WP:COMMONNAME in WP:USEENGLISH is. 65.94.77.11 (talk) 07:21, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
Support all. It doesn't matter if any of these players played in North America, their names and surnames contain diacritics and that's it. We do not and will not change hundreds of article names just because some players worked abroad. All mentioned articles don't use diacritics only because Dolovis created them as such in order to pursue his POINTy agenda. - Darwinek (talk) 19:44, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
- No it's not, it has to comply with WP:UE and WP:UCN, or you have to apply a WP:IAR on it. If they played in North America, it's likely they have press coverage from North America, press coverage in North America is usually English. Per WP:RS, WP:UE, WP:UCN, we can therefore find the commonly used form in English reliable sources, and that is the name that is supposed to be used by WP:POLICY. If you want a different name from that you, you need to get a WP:IAR consensus. 65.94.77.11 (talk) 04:42, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
Support all the names are not English and you can't make them English when you remove the accent marks. Tell me what is Hanzlik, Herman, Kovar, Petruska, Pitule, Prikryl, Ruzicka, Stransky in English?? Just a nonsensical sequence of letters. --Vejvančický (talk | contribs) 09:47, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
Support all Removing the diacritics looks ridiculous. So what if any English-language newspaper has bad keyboards lacking keys for inputting diacritics? Using a bad keyboard doesn't make anything more English than using a good keyboard. These people do not have any English names. --Stefan2 (talk) 01:07, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
Comment/reply: These people do not have any English names. Really? The sources used in the articles use their English names. Specifically on point is the policy of WP:UCN which says that we are to use, for the article title, the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources. That is how the articles are currently named, and per established policy, that is how they should remain. Dolovis (talk) 03:54, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
Support all Their names include diacritics and the above policies that are mentioned do not say remove all diacritics. -DJSasso (talk) 13:02, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
Comment: This is an RM to add diacritics, not remove them. Dolovis (talk) 14:06, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

Fully aware of that. But opposing the move is the same thing as trying to remove them. So the statement is still accurate. -DJSasso (talk) 16:52, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

Support all per supporters above and per my comments for other RMs (example, example). User:Vejvančický will agree with me that those are nonsensical sequences of letters in Czech too. For example "Kovář" is a (popular?) surname deriving from the word for "smith", but "Kovar" doesn't mean anything. --Theurgist (talk) 00:46, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
- Comment: And yet interestingly, both of your examples were part of a 12 article multi-move which moved the article titles away from diacritics over to their English form; or were you intending to make sure the closer recognized that the consistent action to take here would be to turn down this request? — Who R you? Talk 14:39, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

Oppose all – The relevant WP policy sections are transcluded below. The basis for this RM is "Per WP:HOCKEY standard…"; comparing WP's consensus approved policies, with WP:Hockey's private policies, it is clear that the two do not match; as part of the citation from WP:CONSENSUS (in the section below) states: “…unless they can convince the broader community that such action is right, participants in a WikiProject cannot decide that some generally accepted policy or guideline does not apply to articles within its scope.” In other words, WP:Hockey's policies are, as a matter of WP policy, invalid here, since, as we all know, diacritics are a contentious topic which there certainly has never been broad community support for WP:Hockey to establish its own policies on. Therefore, simply on that basis and from the reasons given in the RM itself, there's nothing to support any of these moves. The RM also mentions WP:Consistency (checking that link will lead you to a historical reference WikiProject page that says articles should be consistent in style and fact), meanwhile, WP:CONSISTENCY will direct you to the beginning of the Manual of Style (strange how inconsistent those two links are ); but if the argument is strictly for consistency, I know for a fact that Marek Zidlicky and Milan Jurcina were both recently moved to non-diacritic forms; so, in the interests of consistency, I'll argue that the 10 articles above should equally remain without diacritics.

Then lastly the move request gives a reason of WP:COMMONSENSE; and while I'm not quite sure what their common sense is, I trust most (and with a little luck all) of my statements will adhere to the concept. Realistically, taking a look both at the request itself, and the support of the group of WP:Hockey group members (whom I assume are the ones that collectively nominated these moves), there's nothing to actually backup making the moves; and by nothing, I mean that they don't even offer a single page, or web site, let alone a reliable source (which is, I believe, what policy requires for a successful RM move), to demonstrate that they haven't made a bunch of horrible typos here. I certainly acknowledge that (at least most of) the 6 supporters of this move generally present themselves as infallible possessors of the total sum of all knowledge on all things Czech; and I don't doubt for a moment that they know far more about that region of the world than I likely ever will; but even assuming that I grant that they are whole incapable of error, anything that is strictly their knowledge is, by definition, OR; and therefore, not an acceptable basis for a move like this (or really for anything in the Misplaced Pages world). Where is their, at least basic, proof that their proposed spellings are any less inaccurate than they claim the current spellings to be? Where is their WP:V evidence that allows us to even know that the destinations they suggest are the right ones? Alright, enough WikiLawyering (because I truly hate non-wiki ones) but the fact is that this request amounts to a statement equivalent to "Just trust me, I know what I'm telling you to do is right."; and to my mind that pretty much defines what Misplaced Pages isn't, and goes against the very core of WP's methods, RS, consensus, V.

But then to the matter of spelling of the names themselves; (as listed below) WP:EN, WP:UCN, WP:DIACRITICS, and WP:UE all boil down to one thing, in determining article titles, en.WP follows English sources to use the most common English name for an article. Clear, straight forward, unequivocal really, and definitely not what the policies of WP:Hockey say (and so WP:Hockey's statement of policy simply doesn't count for anything). The Czech and other foreign editors supporting this request all seem to be under the impression that they can dictate to the English speaking world how to spell things in English; but the fact is, in North American, when someone moves to North America, we drop the diacritics in their names; and my proof of that is the English RS, which is what we follow to determine the names of articles on en.WP, and, to the best of my knowledge, all of these articles currently have the most common English names as determined by the best available English RS. And if the group of 6 here want to dispute that, they do so by providing English RS to prove that I'm wrong and that the most common English spelling is what they are claiming.

Their statements that they look silly or that they're just a string a nonsensical letters simply demonstrates that these non-English editors have forgotten (or never understood) for whom en.WP is written; this is not esl.WP for foreigners to practice up on their English (the closest thing we have for that is simple.WP); this is not enBITCH.WP where the English peoples of the world get bitch-slapped around by those who want to tell us what to do; this is not earth.WP or esperanto.WP where the planetary consensus of what an English-like language should resemble has meaning; this is en.WP, where we write in English, using the English alphabet, to provide a (hopefully) accurate encyclopdia, for free, to the English speaking people of the world; and, in the interests of global harmony, where we permit non-English peoples to participate in (not only their own language's WP), but in ours as well; but make no mistake about it, don't forget even for a moment, this is our English Misplaced Pages written for the English speaking world, and the English speaking world are the ones who will determine what the policies are, just like the English media will determine what English spelling is.

These foreign editors apparently fail to understand that, if these words look funny to them without diacritcs, they look a hundred times more asinine to English speakers; a line over a "y" or an apostrophe over an "r", or changing the dot on the "i" to an ever so slightly different mark is as meaningless to us as Sanskrit is to them; a page full of diacritics is, to an English reader, the equivalent of spilling something on the paper so that there are dots all over and it is more difficult to read; nothing more. And if they believe otherwise then they really have no sense of reality on this topic. The fact is, they aren't claiming that they want to move these articles to the correct English names, their argument is that English countries don't have the right to drop the diacritics from peoples names, and therefore it doesn't matter how we spell their names, the important thing, from the 6's POV, is that these 10 are Czech and therefore English must expand its alphabet beyond the 26 letters it uses; these WP editors have decided that English is now comprised of, no less than 33 characters (and I assume they'll be letting us know in short order how much bigger they'll be making it next time around). Non-English WP editors don't get to dictate to English WP editors what our policies are; non-English citizens that live in foreign countries certainly don't get to dictate to English countries how they spell things; and neither English nor non-English WP editors decided anything even remotely like this, we have absolute policy in place to cover these situations, and that is that we don't decide these things, we follow the RS; and on English Misplaced Pages, that means we follow the English RS, even on the spelling of Czech names. And my standard apology; sorry I'm so long winded. — Who R you? Talk 13:22, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

Oppose The closing admin should be advised to delete for lack of notability rather than move. After looking at most of the articles that are the subject of this RM, it appears to me that the thing they have in common is to fail Misplaced Pages:Notability and must be removed. These articles belong in one or more of the wikipedias written in the many Eastern European languages. As best as I can determine (which is tough because this RM page is absent germane evidence of any sort upon which to make proper judgements about anything) all these players are Czech professional ice hockey players and have not played on a North American team nor played against a North American league. The external links of most “value” take readers to foreign-language articles like this. So…
To User:Who R you?, I suggest you contact a bureaucrat and ask him or her to assign a good admin to speedy-close this RM since it is predicated on a nuance that is beside the point. Then I suggest you begin an RfC on this page to delete this and the other articles for lack of notability. I also suggest you delete or strike the below rules since they are inapplicable to the root issue here. It appears there is an avid crowd currently active the last few months who have been responsible for unwise things over on WP:HOCKEY and it is just getting them into hot water. Per WP:LOCALCONSENSUS, Consensus among a limited group of editors, at one place and time, cannot override community consensus on a wider scale. That phenomenon has clearly taken root on our hockey-related articles if they think these players meet Misplaced Pages’s requirements for WP:NOTABILITY. Greg L (talk) 17:04, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

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