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Chess notation

I have a couple of questions about Chess notation on Misplaced Pages. See Chess notation and Algebraic notation (chess). A good example of current usage on Misplaced Pages is at Deep Blue versus Garry Kasparov. The official rules are at http://www.fide.com/component/handbook/?view=article&id=125 (FIDE Chess Handbook, E.I.01B (Appendices), Appendix C (Algebraic notation). I believe the United States Chess Federation prefers the FIDE notation but allows descriptive as well.

My questions are:

Hyphen, en dash or em dash? Move 8 of Deep Blue versus Garry Kasparov, 1996, Game 1 (Which I will call DBvK for short) shows a 0-0 (Castle) with an ASCII 2D (hyphen).

Space after period; required, allowed, or forbidden? DBvK has no spaces.

Leading zeros; required, allowed, or forbidden? DBvK has no leading zeros, nor has any chess book I have ever seen. Some chess-playing programs use leading zeros, but that went out of style with MS-DOS.

Capture; small letter x or multiplication sign? Or some other character?

May I assume that Misplaced Pages's standard is the algebraic notation required by the FIDE with English piece names? Or are figurine piece names also allowed? --Guy Macon (talk) 00:23, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

[I have posted a message at WT:CHESS, with a link to this discussion.

—Wavelength (talk) 00:57, 22 May 2012 (UTC)]

[Editors are invited to see User talk:Tony1#chess notation (version of 01:08, 22 May 2012).

—Wavelength (talk) 01:17, 22 May 2012 (UTC)]

• Hyphen or dash - most rulebooks don't say, but Schiller Official Rules of Chess says dash. But I haven't seen an em-dash used for decades. But Schiller also says to use zeros for castling whereas most of the rulebooks use a letter O.
• Space after period - as far as I can tell, anything goes.
• Leading zeros - certainly not required and they are rarely seen.
• Algebraic notation is the world-wide standard. The USCF allows games to be recorded in descriptive notation, but nothing has been published in that for about 25 years. I don't think this has been discussed, but the English piece names are used instead of figurines. Bubba73 01:50, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

• I think this arises from threads on my talk page and that of Ihardlythinkso, where I've listed some sources:
• Pitman (in Modern Chess Openings): proper symbol (×) and en dash
• Bell: proper symbol (but uses a kind of em dash, it seems: certainly not a hyphen)
• Penguin: proper symbol and en dash
• Chess Digest: proper symbol and en dash
• Batsford: proper symbol (but uses hyphen, not en dash)
• Arco: proper symbol and en dash
• Imprint Capablanca (heavy-duty chess publishers): proper symbol and en dash
• Digest: proper symbol and en dash

Tony (talk) 03:00, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

I looked at two more books, Kasparov on Kasparov, Everyman Chess and The Mammoth Book of Chess. In both of them, I could see no difference between the symbol they use for capture and the letter x. As far as hyphen or dash in castling, definitely not m-dash, but I can't tell the difference between a hyphen and an n-dash in print. Bubba73 04:06, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Well, they are pretty short so they look like hyphens to me. Bubba73 04:09, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

If you want to use the same characters as used in the sources, I would argue that the characters used in the official FIDE laws of chess or USCF rules of chess trump some random chess book. FIDE (ref above) uses these characters:

# Octothorpe (ASCII 23)

+ Plus Sign (ASCII 2B)

- Hyphen (ASCII 2D)

0 Zero (ASCII 30)

= Equal Sign (ASCII 3D)

x Lower Case X (ASCII 78)

USCF (example http://main.uschess.org/content/view/11741/141/ ) uses the same characters except for one:

O Upper case O (ASCII 4F)

One notable primary source looks like this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/File:Fischer_Score_Card.jpg

Good luck with that one.

While they don't specifically mention chess, If you look at MOS:HYPHEN, MOS:DASH, MOS:EMDASH, and MOS:ENDASH, I think it could be argued that the correct character to use here is the hyphen. Hyphens indicate conjunction, and the use in chess notation (particularly long algebraic) is a lot more like a conjunction than it is like anything in the dash descriptions. --Guy Macon (talk) 08:09, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

I agree and think we should follow the FIDE algebraic notation, which USCF says they use too. Btw, here is another link for USCF Other symbols: Castling- 0-0 ; Queenside castling- 0-0-0 ; Capture- x (i.e. BxNf6 means bishop captures knight on f6) ; Check- + ; Checkmate- ++ OR # ; White wins- 1-0 ; Black wins- 0-1 ; d pawn promotes to a queen- d8=Q ; Good move- ! ; Bad move- ? ; Brilliant, soul searing move- !!  ; Blunder- ?? ; Interesting move !? ; Dubious move ?! . I have checked their official rule book (preview in amazon) and it is the same there, except the use of the letter O in castling. Voorlandt (talk) 09:13, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

That looks like the best solution. I think we can ignore the USCF O and use 0 - every other country except the US uses FIDE rules, including New Zealand, Australia, Canada and the UK. One other detail; FIDE uses capital letters for pieces (B for Bishop) and lower case letters for squares (square b4). --Guy Macon (talk) 09:51, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

The FIDE source is a web page, and web pages tend to stick to ASCII. That doesn't mean that a print source would stick to ASCII. Also, for castling they use a spaced hyphen, which is a conventional ASCII substitution for an en dash. Given all the print sources which use ⟨×⟩ and ⟨–⟩, that's probably what we should do here. — kwami (talk) 10:42, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

It is a good point that web pages tend to stick to ASCII, so here are links to the print versions of the rules of both FIDE Appendix C and USCF: USCF, page 214-..; regards, Voorlandt (talk) 10:49, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Any Misplaced Pages copyeditor familiar with WP:ENDASH would expect 1–0 (White wins), along with 0–1 and ½–½, using a dash because they resemble a sports score. Art LaPella (talk) 14:26, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

I agree, but reporting the result of a game or tournament is not actually part of chess notation, which serves to document the moves made in the game. FIDE-standard algebraic notation only uses a hyphen for castling (0-0 and 0-0-0), but long algebraic notation uses a hyphen for most moves (Nb1-c3) as does reversible algebraic notation.

Alas, baseball doesn't seem to use "1-2, 2-3" to indicate two runners on 1st and 2nd base advancing to 2nd and 3rd base, but if it did, I suspect that it would use a hyphen. The closest analogy on Misplaced Pages I could find was at Odds, where I find "a more common use is "odds against", of the form 6 to 1, 6-1, 6:1, or 6/1 (all read as 'six-to-one')". --Guy Macon (talk) 17:28, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

As far as hyphen versus dash (either one) and the "x" used in capture, I suggest that the ones that are available on a standard keyboard be used, i.e. a hyphen and a lower-case letter x. Bubba73 22:53, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

I would also note that while the FIDE Laws of Chess(Appendix C, pages 18-20) appears to specify 0 - 0 - 0, the sample game at the top of page 20 makes it clear that 0-0-0 is to be used. --Guy Macon (talk) 02:17, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

To me, specifying 0 - 0 - 0 and then using 0-0-0 in the sample, makes it clear that whoever wrote that doesn't consider spacing to be an important difference, and it seems unlikely he cares about hyphens vs. dashes either. Art LaPella (talk) 02:42, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Wholly agree w/ Art. There are so many absent notation standards needing attention, why waste this good opportunity seeing "ghosts" in minutae (Tony1's "scrutinizing sources" for diffs between "×" vs "x", castling hyphens vs endashes)? Are we gonna blow this opportunity now that the topic of notation convention finally has attention? Or set some standards for uniformity, of which there are precious few? Ihardlythinkso (talk) 03:32, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Take-aways

OMG! The discussion is seeming to center on what s/b uniform notation conventions, across all articles. (I hadn't presumed that from Tony; it wasn't clear to me he wasn't meaning article-specific styling to mirror what's in respective sources.) But the topic of an agreed consistent notation for WP chess articles is a great topic IMO (since I for one think uniformity across articles is a good thing for readability).

How about some "take-aways" from this discussion!? Updating either MOS for chess, or ProjChess conventions!? (There is a ProjChess convention "White/Black" refer to players; "white/black" refer to pieces, but little other strong conventions, beyond the obvious, like B = bishop, etc. And I'd assumed "x" for captures, and hyphens for castles, were in the obvious camp, until now, since they've never been questioned until now. I assume they won't change.) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 23:43, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Will we have any "take-aways" on any of these (consensus for ProjChess conventions, or MOS guides), or do we just let all this get archived and forgotten about? Tony1 made changes to Morphy versus the Duke of Brunswick and Count Isouard regarding item 'n' (changing captures, e.g. "dxe5" to "d×e5") and 'm' (changing castles, e.g. "0-0-0" to "0–0–0"), I questioned him on it at his User Talk, he was insistent, even though his notation styling is inconsistent w/ 99.99% chess articles. I opened the issue on the article Talk, but someone opened a thread here, and Tony1 asked if discussion could be moved from article Talk to here (although I don't see any participation by Tony1 here). That is why there is this discussion here (it wasn't my idea to open a thread at MOS, only at article Talk). So, what happens back at Morphy versus the Duke of Brunswick and Count Isouard as a result of this thread, which replaced the discussion at article Talk? Will we determine consensus on at least items 'n' and 'm' below so Morphy versus the Duke of Brunswick and Count Isouard can be resolved? Or will it be allowed, through lack of whatever, that yet another notation styling—am pretty sure not seen before in any WP chess article—to add to the convention inconsistencies WP already has, documented below? Ihardlythinkso (talk) 12:34, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

Without conclusion(s) drawn regarding consensus on the item(s), other than on some which seem to be governed already by MOS (like "1–0" versus "1-0"), there'll be no ProjChess convention or MOS guide to prefer any of the options listed over other option(s). In that case, one would like to think precedence should be honored (e.g., "exd5" occurring in 99.99% articles, not "e×d5"), rather than the chaos (inconsistencies) whereby any editor reverts any other based on personal preference (for whatever reason). But in some cases there isn't a clear precedent (e.g., there are plenty of "O-O-O"s in articles as well as "0-0-0"s), so there's nothing to stop the chaos (inconsistencies) brought on by repeated reversions. (Which *does* happen. Ditto for "1... e5" versus "1. ... e5", etc.). This MOS thread was supposedly opened to resolve one or more of these differences of preference. Has it? Will there be any take-away result(s) (consensus)? (If not, is there a WP Guide giving preference to existing precedent in articles, when there clearly is one? Or is it assumed editors should respect any overwhelming precedent already in-place?) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 11:27, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

a. 0-0-0 vs. O-O-O

(It'd be nice to get some policy on it, so editors stop reverting one another based on personal taste! My own "kinky" preference is that 0-0-0 is always used, but O-O-O for pre-1900 games, to make them look "antiquish". But I realize that sounds silly, and my own preference isn't important anyway. Ihardlythinkso (talk) 23:43, 22 May 2012 (UTC))

Portable Game Notation uses letter O, in contrast to most publications. Personally, I just write circles, but I prefer letter O to zero. Bubba73 03:23, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

The Laws of Chess and their Interpretation by Golombek uses O. Bubba73 03:39, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

I personally draw Os when recording a game, but when playing over games (reading), I prefer to see 0s. (It looks more "modern". Plus WP's own reference for this, article Algebraic notation, uses 0s not Os – see section Castling. Ihardlythinkso (talk) 13:19, 28 May 2012 (UTC)) But if the WP future is figurine notation and PGN (as ), then are we best off positioning for that now, with "O–O–O"?! Ihardlythinkso (talk) 04:13, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

0-0-0 per FIDE Laws of Chess Appendix C. (OTOH, note that USCF rules and Portable Game Notation use O-O-O) --Guy Macon (talk) 05:28, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

The appendix is ambiguous. They imply <0–0–0>. — kwami (talk) 18:07, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

That's not true. Look at the top of page 20. The PDF uses the binary code for ASCII 0, not ASCII O, and ASCII -, not Unicode –. --Guy Macon (talk) 20:11, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Is it fair to say there is no CONSENSUS, therefore editors should feel free in WP chess articles to continue reverting one another till the cows come home based on personal taste? Ihardlythinkso (talk) 20:11, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

The above conversation is funny. Any chess organisation gives notation rules for players to follow. Plays 'write moves down on paper as the moves are played. They are written, with a real pen/pencil etc, no one care if the players castle is written with a zero or a letter 'O' because as written on a piece of paper it does not matter. So don't read to much into it, that is why FIDE say use 0-0-0 but give example with O-O-O interchangably. Regards, SunCreator 22:55, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

We could write out our article by hand and scan them up. We have higher and different standards here. Tony (talk) 23:13, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

@Ihardlythinkso: “there is no CONSENSUS” wouldn't mean “editors should feel free in WP chess articles to continue reverting one another till the cows come home based on personal taste”, it would mean “leave stuff the hell alone”. ― A. di M.​  08:43, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

A. di M., please clarify. I was describing what actually happens (reverts, according to taste). What are you describing? Your link goes only to MOS in general. Have no idea what your idea is. Ihardlythinkso (talk) 11:00, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

b. (1.e4) vs. (1. e4) vs. (1 e4)

(It'd be nice to get some policy on it, because as can be seen here, some editors have personal taste that is different: Semi-Slav Defense. Ihardlythinkso (talk) 23:43, 22 May 2012 (UTC))

(I really think this difference s/ *not* be standardized, I think that's going too far. But I do think that in horizontal gamescores where moves are all in bold, "1. e4" s/b preferred, to give all that crowded blackness some breathing room, for easier-on-the-eyes reading. But an influential member at ProjChess disagrees with that. Anyway! I say not to touch this, the downside being, there may be back-and-forth reverts between users on personal preferences – in fact the reason I opened a discussion on ProjChess was due to a back-and-forth reversion! I think this issue is really complex, and is really confusing therefore. Ihardlythinkso (talk) 23:43, 22 May 2012 (UTC))

I don't like the period to be omitted, and I think it is rare. I prefer a space after the period. Bubba73 03:26, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

I think I agree. (Especially for bold.) Chess Life uses the space consistently. But User:MrsHudson prefers without the space (Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Chess/FAQ/Format#Notation.) I wonder how dropping the space came about, and why. I can see advantage in big blocks of horizontal gamescore for compactness/space savings, and you can get "more in" a given line in an Infobox, circumventing spillover to a new line. But in columnar presentations (e.g. intro moves in most openings articles), the space is always used. But in TOCs, the space in section titles makes things look more confusing ("2.1 1. e4" vs. "2.1 1.e4"). So I think blanket application is probably a mistake; too many situations. (Not sure what's best!) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 04:35, 23 May 2012 (UTC) p.s. I agree "1 e4" is bad of course. (But at least a couple ProjChess members, including User:Quale, thought it looks best: Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Chess/FAQ/Format#Notation.)

I agree that the space does make a TOC entry confusing, so don't use a space in a section title. Bubba73 04:45, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

The FIDE Laws of Chess Appendix C. (top of page 20) specifies 1. e4 (FIDE website mostly conforms to this, but occasionally does not) --Guy Macon (talk) 05:28, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

I'd use 1. e4, with a non-breaking space. Maybe a thin space would look better (1.e4), but the KISS principle applies. ― A. di M.​  13:41, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

di M., is the "thin space" supposed to be less wide than a non-breaking space? (Because on my computer, it is creating *more* separation than the non-breaking space, not less.) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 21:26, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Re "1 e4":
Is it fair to say there is CONSENSUS to never use that notation style (without dot) in WP chess articles?

Re "1.e4" vs "1. e4":
(I'm staying out of this topic, as noted above.) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 21:04, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

c. (1...Nf6 or 1 ...Nf6) vs. (1. ...Nf6 or 1. ... Nf6)

c. (1...Nf6 or 1... Nf6) vs. (1. ...Nf6 or 1. ... Nf6)

(There's plenty of discord regarding which s/b used, and I've seen reversions back-and-forth based on personal preference also. I'm sure the first will be chosen, but would be nice to have some policy on it, to resolve the matter. Ihardlythinkso (talk) 23:43, 22 May 2012 (UTC))

Also 1... Nf6 is used (like the second one, but the space is after the three periods). I've flip-flopped on this, but for the last couple of years I've preferred 1... Nf6. Bubba73 03:28, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

That's my fault (I meant 1... Nf6 but incorrectly typed 1 ...Nf6 in the subsection title). Sorry for confusion. Ihardlythinkso (talk) 04:10, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

1...Nf6 when a number is specified, ...Nf6 if no number per FIDE usage --Guy Macon (talk) 05:28, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Is it fair to say there is CONSENSUS to always use 1...Nf6 or 1... Nf6 for notating Black moves in WP chess articles, and not 1. ...Nf6 or 1. ... Nf6?

d. (1–0, 0–1, ½–½) vs. (1-0, 0-1, ½-½)

(Again I assume the first will be chosen; I agree w/ Art. But it would be nice to have a standard in policy, so there's no question. Ihardlythinkso (talk) 23:43, 22 May 2012 (UTC))

I prefer the one that we have on a standard keyboard. But I do strongly prefer ½-½ to 0.5-0.5, or he scored 6½ points over 6.5 points. Bubba73 03:30, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

I prefer fractions too, but just discovered this: "The use of the few Unicode symbols available for fractions (such as ½) is discouraged entirely, for accessibility reasons among others." (Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers#Fractions. Have I misinterpreted it!?) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 07:39, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Excellent find! Now we have a third answer. Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers#Fractions does not say we should use

½ ( Unicode VULGAR FRACTION ONE HALF )

or

1/2 ( ASCII 1, /, 2 ).

It says we should use

1⁄2 ( WikiMarkup {{frac|1|2}} ),

which gives us

⁄₂ ( Superscript ASCII 1, Unicode FRACTION SLASH ), Subscript ASCII 2 ).

--Guy Macon (talk) 12:53, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Not a part of chess notation, so MOS rules for reporting scores of sporting events apply. FIDE use is inconsistent, sometimes 1-0, 0-1 and 1/2-1/2, sometimes 1-0, 0-1, ½-½. --Guy Macon (talk) 05:28, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Is it fair to say there is CONSENSUS to use endashes (as according to MOS) when reporting these scores in WP chess articles, and not hyphens?

What part of MOS? --Guy Macon (talk) 12:53, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

MOS:ENDASH. "2. In compounds when the connection might otherwise be expressed with to, versus, and, or between. Here the relationship is thought of as parallel, symmetric, equal, oppositional, or at least involving separate or independent elements. The components may be nouns, adjectives, verbs, or any other independent part of speech."

In the list of examples given, this one: "a 51–30 win; a six–two majority decision" Ihardlythinkso (talk) 18:43, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

e. (+5 −1 =3) vs. (+5−1=3) vs. (+5 =3 −1) vs. (+5=3−1)

(For match and tournament scores. Again I assume the first will be chosen. That's why I've spent time on several articles on major players making them uniformly +W −L =D, following the lead of some of the more consistent major articles. But it was a lot of work! And there are different ways to report scores in RSs . Of course I personally prefer the former , but again my preference is not important; consistency is the desirable goal, and a policy now could help that end. Ihardlythinkso (talk) 23:43, 22 May 2012 (UTC))

I brought this up at the Chess project talk page. Some non-chessplayers don't understand what the = means. I prefer something like (W5,L1,D3) - much clearer. Bubba73 03:32, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Not a part of chess notation. Is there something in MOS that specifies win/draw/loss for sporting events? FIDE uses +W=D-l. All variations seem confusing to newcomers. --Guy Macon (talk) 05:28, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Probably should hold of on "spending time on several articles making them uniform" until a consensus is reached as to what we should standardize on. --Guy Macon (talk) 15:20, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

I've understood my time might so be wasted, but my expectation that an agreed-upon standard will be reached is that this will occur sometime in the year 2025 (or like the song, "in the year 2525, if Man is still alive"). Ihardlythinkso (talk) 21:25, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

f. (+/−, −/+, −+, +−) vs. (+/-, -/+, +-, -+) vs. (+/–, –/+, +–, –+)

(I assume the first will be chosen . But there is no policy now for evaluation expessions, as well as for Black . Ihardlythinkso (talk) 23:43, 22 May 2012 (UTC))

I prefer the one that a standard keyboard has. Bubba73 03:33, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

The problem with sticking to ASCII is that it looks amateurish. You can always write it in ASCII, of course, and s.o. will clean up after you. Also, when we mean 'minus', we already have the standard of writing it as minus rather than as a hyphen. — kwami (talk) 04:26, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Really? I think ASCII looks modern - as if a computer was used instead of 19th-century printing technology. Bubba73 05:01, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Well, I think Unicode looks even more modern – as if modern fonts were used instead of 20th-century character encodings. ;-) (And the hyphen looks mismatched to me.) ― A. di M.​  13:45, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

The minus is at the same level as, and the same length as, the horiztal bar in "+", so to me minus looks hands-down "cleaner" (neater, more organized). (WP provides the special char clickable, of course, below the edit summary box.) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 04:44, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

This is widely used in engineering and statistics. Is there already a MOS entry for it? --Guy Macon (talk) 05:28, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Previous discussions: Manual of Style and WikiProject Chess.

Text readers will say the correct words if the real minus sign is used instead of the hyphen. Everything in the manual of style points to using the correct symbol, not a shortcut. Binksternet (talk) 16:08, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

As far as I am concerned, what Binksternet wrote above settles the issue. We do not make decisions that make things harder on the visually impaired because we like the way they look. Not only is designing for screen readers the right thing to do, we are required by the Americans with Disabilities Act to make reasonable accommodations for users with screen readers. --Guy Macon (talk) 16:30, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Article Punctuation (chess) gives =/∞, +/=, +/−, and +−. I guess in this "take-away" I'm asking if we can make that policy, so when hyphens are found in articles they can be replaced (with minuses). In this ProjChess discussion, User:ZeroOne points out ± and ∓ are available, but no equivalents with "=" (except that User:Casaschi explains how to make them, giving an example/link). In the same discussion, Quale preferred English prose over evaluation symbols in WP articles, reserving symbol use for wikibooks:chess. Ihardlythinkso (talk) 22:29, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Good find! I strongly agree with you about standardizing. For example, we can standardize on hyphens. We can standardize on en dashes. We can standardize by saying "retain whatever is already there", like we do with US and UK spelling. Any of these will avoid having editors revert each other over this. --Guy Macon (talk) 06:10, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

Concur. (Anything is better than senseless reverts & re-reverts.) Maybe when done here we can bake some cookies (make some policy)? Ihardlythinkso (talk) 08:45, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

Is it fair to say there is CONSENSUS to use arithmetic minuses in symbols +/−, −/+, +−, and −+, in chess articles when they are used, and not hyphens or dashes? Ihardlythinkso (talk) 20:28, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

g. (Fischer vs. Petrosian) vs. (Fischer vs Petrosian) vs. (Fischer v. Petrosian) vs. (Fischer v Petrosian) vs. (Fischer versus Petrosian)

(Too "sticky" and complex! Because it occurs in diff places, each w/ diff effects: prefix to gamescores, inline references, in article text, ELs, diagram headings, section titles, etc. Have fun! Ihardlythinkso (talk) 23:43, 22 May 2012 (UTC))

Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style/Abbreviations#Miscellaneous shortenings (version of 06:41, 9 May 2012) says the following about "vs./v.”

Shortening	Expansion	Notes
vs./v.	versus (against / in contrast to)	They do not need to be linked. Prefer "vs." except in legal contexts, where the usage is "v." Not italicized, since it has long been assimilated into the language as an English word.

—Wavelength (talk) 23:48, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

In the body of text, I prefer to spell out "versus". In a caption I prefer "vs.". But I strongly prefer these to the common dash or hyphen, so that there won't be confusion with hyphenated names. Bubba73 03:35, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

"vs." per MOS Misc. shortenings --Guy Macon (talk) 05:28, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Doesn't British English use "vs" with no period? ― A. di M.​  13:30, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

I checked some British case law (here). Trawling through the text, I saw that the preferred abbreviation was "v" - no period, no "s". Of course, that might just be what this particlar judge prefers. Martinvl (talk) 13:37, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

h. d8Q vs. d8=Q vs. d8(Q) vs. d8/Q

(For WP, do we prefer one of these? If not, we'll get all of them! Ihardlythinkso (talk) 23:43, 22 May 2012 (UTC))

The first one is mainly used only where you are trying to save paper (Informat is an example), so I think it is the least preferred on WP. Then =Q is my first choice and (Q) is my second choice. (Note that you can't put an = in a caption unless you enclose it in two sets of braces.) Bubba73 03:42, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

I guess I'd agree, that d8=Q is best (with other conventions already assumed standard, like inclusion of "+" for check, and "x" for captures). (And I just noticed that Chess Life also uses "=Q".) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 04:47, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

d8Q per FIDE Laws of Chess Appendix C. --Guy Macon (talk) 05:28, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

OK. Bubba73 23:33, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

But we aren't obligated to follow suit w/ the FIDE handbook. For example Chess Life uses d8=Q, and I think that convention would be less confusing for new readers than d8Q. Ihardlythinkso (talk) 13:25, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

Here's another argument to consider: Minimal algegraic notation (MAN) uses ed5 or ed instead of exd5, and Qh7 instead of Qh7+. MAN also uses d8Q. Wouldn't it be advisable and/or consistent then, to continue the pattern of differentiation from MAN in WP chess articles, by using d8=Q (or d8(Q) or d8/Q) instead of d8Q? Ihardlythinkso (talk) 20:50, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

d8Q is, to me, just ugly. It appears more common to omit the sign when using figurine notation, e.g. The Mammoth Book of Chess uses d8♕. d8/Q is old and isn't used much. d8=Q is the clearest and probably the most used. d8(Q) is OK, but I find the one with the equals sign clearer. Double sharp (talk) 15:10, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

i. (gxh6 e.p.) vs. (gxh6e.p.) vs. (gxh6 e.p.) vs. (gxh6 (e.p.)) vs. (gxh6(e.p.)) vs. (gxh6)

(Do we or don't we want to notate e.p.? And if so, how? Ihardlythinkso (talk) 23:43, 22 May 2012 (UTC))

gxh6 e.p. per Rule C.9 of the FIDE Laws of Chess. --Guy Macon (talk) 05:28, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

I guess I would agree gxh6 e.p. is the best expression (in conjunction w/ already assumed standards of "+" for check, and "x" for captures). Out of curiosity I checked Chess Life, and they use: gxh6 e.p. (italicized!). (Feb 2012 Chess Life, p. 49.) WHICH WOULD REALLY MAKE SENSE for WP too, since term en passant is always italic. (I've added italic to the comparison choices above.) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 05:51, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Is it fair to say there is CONSENSUS to use the first option consistently, in WP chess articles? Ihardlythinkso (talk) 21:15, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

j. (White will maneuver Nb1–a3–c2) vs. (White will maneuver Nb1-a3-c2) ... or ... (Black will react in the center by pushing his pawn ...e7–e5) vs. (by pushing his pawn ...e7-e5)

(It's never been explicitly stated before, but in WP articles, I've assumed longhand algebraic is never implied by these kinds of expressions, rather, endash means "from square x to square y". . But I've never seen a case in any article, where the meaning needed or intended to be longhand. Ihardlythinkso (talk) 23:43, 22 May 2012 (UTC))

Again, I prefer the one I can type on my keyboard. Except for the ½ character, I'm not going to put things I can't time (dashes or the other form of x). Bubba73 03:44, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

"White will maneuver Na3, then Nc2." or "White will maneuver Na3, Nc2." Use standard algebraic notation. --Guy Macon (talk) 05:28, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Bubba, you can write it however you like. The MOS is for the style we expect for an FA. If you want to use hyphens where we expect dashes, that's fine: someone will come along later to convert them. It's no big deal, and you don't need to go out of your way to follow the minutiae of the MOS. — kwami (talk) 18:04, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

The Mammoth Book of Chess (App. B) says, "In long algebraic notation ... a dash placed between the departure and arrival squares". — kwami (talk) 18:20, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

But I don't think the sample descriptions intend to be actual longform notation. Rather, they are just a shorthand in lieu of more lengthy English text descriptions. (This type of technique is used in lotsa openings articles, lots! For example, here it's used four times in the first couple paragraphs: Sicilian Defence, Dragon Variation#The Yugoslav Attack.) I don't think WP needs to have even one occurrence of actual longform notation – just like there's never a need for occurence of another notation system, like descriptive, in any article. (Except of course in context where such system is described/explained.) I think MOS applies when using the shorthand, as it does in "the a1–h8 diagonal", " C55–C56", "page 38–39", etc. (The reason am making the distinction at all, is that it's not certain to me that longform algegraic shouldn't use hyphen!) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 20:07, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Right - there is a difference between a sequence of moves like this and the long form notation. Bubba73 23:36, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Not really on the topic of MOS Chess Notation, but is it even legal under either USCF or FIDE rules to record your game in long algebraic or reversible algebraic?

Is it fair to say there is CONSENSUS that when these type descriptions are used in chess articles, and according to existing MOS, dashes are to be used, not hyphens? Ihardlythinkso (talk) 20:21, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

k. + vs. ++

(I don't think I've actually seen ++ for "double-check" in any article, so this is really picky, but for completeness while we're on the topic, how about making + standard when there's a double-check, instead of ++? Ihardlythinkso (talk) 23:43, 22 May 2012 (UTC))

To me, ++ means checkmate, so double check would be confusing at best. Art LaPella (talk) 00:49, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

I agree. But see Double check. (It might cause reverts, w/o a policy.) Ok, Ihardlythinkso (talk) 01:25, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

I think ++ is used for double check in some other articles. I use # for checkmate, and I normally don't indicate double check, so I prefer just a single + for double check. Bubba73 03:48, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

I use "X" for checkmate (ala ECO oops! – I don't remember where I picked up use of "X"; ECO uses "#"), but for WP, "#". I agree, ignore notating double-check. Ihardlythinkso (talk) 04:51, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

There is no "+ vs. ++". "+" means check and "++" (or "#") means checkmate per FIDE Laws of Chess Appendix C --Guy Macon (talk) 05:28, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

I'd be unambiguous and use # for checkmate, and just + for double check (except in unusual circumstances such as the double check article itself). ― A. di M.​  13:47, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

I agree with that - generally don't indicate double check, except where it specifically needs to be noted, as in the double check article and conceivably a few others. Bubba73 23:39, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Is it fair to say there is CONSENSUS that only + be used for double-check in chess articles, save one (the Double check article)? Ihardlythinkso (talk) 20:16, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

Although I like the ++ (it's very intuitive), when a game has a double check, the double check is usually notable enough to mention in the annotation, and the double check article will probably be linked, so I don't mind standardising on the single +. The potential confusion between the two uses of ++ (double check and checkmate) is something I would prefer to avoid. Double sharp (talk) 15:15, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

l. (28. Qxh7# 1–0) vs. (28. Qxh7#)

(Really picky again, but it crops up on occasion. Is "# 1–0" redundant? Or should an endashed result follow *all* completed gamescores? Ihardlythinkso (talk) 00:24, 23 May 2012 (UTC))

It is redundant, but I don't mind it being there. Bubba73 03:50, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

I think looks more professional & "complete" having 1–0 there. (For sure gamescores are consistent too, whether mate or not.) I just noticed Chess Life uses ", Black resigned.", ", White resigned.", " mate.", ", Draw.", and ", Draw agreed." (But hey!) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 04:54, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

This needs more discussion. The two have different meanings. # means checkmate, wheras 1-0 means a win, which could be through resignation, a 1-point bye, time loss, etc. In theory, # 0-1 is possible (White checkmates and loses). This could happen if an abitrator observes White's flag falling, followed by White checkmating Black before the arbitrator could announce the time loss for White. It could also happen if cheating was discovered. The FIDE rules do not specify how to record an accepted draw, but 1/2-1/2 or ½-½ is usually used. --Guy Macon (talk) 05:28, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

The two options listed are meant to be mutually exclusive (picking one or the other, when "#" occurs in a WP gamescore). Since "#" is in both, resignation, 1-point bye, and time loss, don't apply. Regarding White checkmating and losing, assuming that's really a gamescore possibility, it would be so rare, that without clarifying text, "28. Qxh7# 0–1" would be interpreted by the reader, or an editor, as a typo. (So, there'd always *have* to be clarifying text. So again, that add'l text wouldn't relate to which of the two above choices should be selected.) Ditto "cheating" (assuming that is a possibility in a gamescore, too, another rarified event demanding accompanying explanatory text). How to express draws is a valid item, but would be its own different item, not this one. So I don't see anything needing discussion here, regarding the orig two choices listed in this item. Ok, Ihardlythinkso (talk) 10:38, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

m. (4. dxe5) vs. (4. d×e5)

(For completeness, what Tony brought up originally. I think most have already weighed in; I assume we won't be changing the standard "x" currently in use in articles. Ihardlythinkso (talk) 08:33, 24 May 2012 (UTC))

I can't remember ever seeing the times sign for this, and I also think it looks mismatched (it doesn't vertically align with the lowercase letters surrounding it). ― A. di M.​  13:35, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

dxe5 per FIDE Laws of Chess Appendix C. --Guy Macon (talk) 16:33, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

But FIDE doesn't distinguish <×> from <x>, so that doesn't mean anything. — kwami (talk) 18:00, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

What do you mean "FIDE doesn't distinguish <×> from <x>"? In every FIDE document that I have checked, FIDE only uses x (lower case letter x). --Guy Macon (talk) 20:02, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

They have <8 x 8>, which means they aren't distinguishing <×> from <x>. Their use of <x> is therefore not evidence that it should be <x> rather than <×> (which maybe it should be). — kwami (talk) 22:48, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

In the MENSA Guide, they do have the multiplication symbol in <8×8>, but still use the letter ex for capture. Though they don't bother much with typography, so that isn't as convincing as it might be. — kwami (talk) 18:12, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

The Mammoth Book of Chess says, "A capture is indicated by a multiplication sign (or simply a letter x) before the arrival square." (App. B, p 553) — kwami (talk) 18:20, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Totally agree with A. di M. Plus, if the eight books listed by Tony1 were intended to be basis indicating what's used by chess sources generally, um, the number of chess publs past & present make a sampling of eight stack up to less than 0.01 of one percent. (I'm sure I could list five times that number of books as counterexamples given a half-hour, just out of my own personal library.) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 21:49, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

WP's own reference for this, article Algebraic notation, doesn't even mention the multiplication symbol – see section Notation for captures. Ihardlythinkso (talk) 13:03, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

If 99.99% of WP chess articles use dxe5 (is anyone finding a single article using d×e5 beyond the article Tony1 changed?), then doesn't the burden to change notation in articles (from x to ×) fall on the proposer(s) for the change? Tony1 presumably attempted to meet the burden by listing eight chess books as sources, and User:Kwami has pointed out The Mammouth Book of Chess says × or x are acceptable. Do these arguments sufficiently meet the buden to warrant introduction of a new notation for captures (×) inconsistent with all existing WP chess articles? Ihardlythinkso (talk) 19:57, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

Actually, we are allowed to make decisions at MOS that require changing large numbers of articles, and we are not bound by what has been done before - although those are certainly considerations. I agree with your conclusion, but not with your reasons. We should standardize on the lower-case X instead of the multiplication sign because FIDE does. --Guy Macon (talk) 20:25, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

Not that we are *bound* by what is in 99.99% chess articles already – just that the burden of demonstrating that massive precedent should be changed, should fall on the proposers of the change. (Rather than reverse logic, of placing a burden on others to defend why a massive precedent already in place, should be kept.) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 19:02, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Even though The Mammoth Book of Chess says both are acceptable, it uses the lower-case X throughout. I find "x" the best, not just because most sources use it, but also because it just seems more logical to the beginner. If the beginner sees "Bxg7", it would be clearer that it's a capture because the "x" implies that something was "xed" on g7 – i.e. a capture took place there. "B×g7" would be more confusing, since the times sign has a completely different connotation. Double sharp (talk) 15:10, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

n. (12. 0-0-0) vs. (12. 0–0–0)

(For completeness, what Tony brought up originally. I think most have already weighed in; I assume we won't be changing the standard "0-0-0" currently in use in articles. Ihardlythinkso (talk) 08:33, 24 May 2012 (UTC))

I'd prefer dashes with Os (O–O–O), but I'd be OK with hyphens and zeros (0-0-0), whereas 0–0–0 and O-O-O would look mismatched to me. ― A. di M.​  13:38, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

0-0-0 per FIDE Laws of Chess Appendix C. --Guy Macon (talk) 16:34, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Actually, no. They have <0 - 0 - 0>, which is presumably intended to be <0–0–0>, just as their <8 x 8> in §2.1 would normally be formatted <8×8>.

Look at the top of page 20 and tell me what you see. Also, the characters you keep using to enclose examples is driving the Misplaced Pages editing screen nuts. I have to keep replacing them with < and > just to reply to you. --Guy Macon (talk) 22:00, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

They have <0-0-0> in the example, but <0 - 0 - 0> at the bottom of p19 where they define the symbols. — kwami (talk) 22:46, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

I don't know what would be mismatched about dashes and zeros: that's how a score would read. — kwami (talk) 17:58, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Barnes has <N–QB3> etc. for descriptive, and <0–0–0> for castling. — kwami (talk) 18:28, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

WP's own reference for this, article Algebraic notation, uses hyphens not dashes – see section Castling. No WP chess articles I'm aware of, save Morphy versus the Duke modified by Tony1, uses dashes. (That kind of consistency has got to mean something, and count for something! If 99.99% of WP chess articles use 0-0-0 , then doesn't the burden to change notation in articles from hyphens to dashes fall on the proposer for the change? Has the burden been met, warranting introduction of a new notation for castles inconsistent with all existing WP chess articles?) I think dashes look odd and are a distraction when playing over gamescores, waste horizontal space for no reason, and are inconsistent with 99.99 percent current chess articles. Ihardlythinkso (talk) 13:13, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

Wouldn't 0–0 (kingside castle with zeroes and an en dash) collide with what happens with a double forfeit (neither player comes to the board, and the game is lost by both)? Whatever is adopted, I'd prefer that the kingside and queenside castles (and the Pam–Krabbé joke vertical castling 0-0-0-0) be consistent. Double sharp (talk) 15:10, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

o. (e-pawn, f5-square, g-file) vs. (e pawn, f5 square, g file)

(Maybe just a MOS thing, most editors already hyphenate these expressions, but not all; w/ be nice to have explicit convention supporting "always hyphenate". Ihardlythinkso (talk) 08:33, 24 May 2012 (UTC))

I think so too, and the same with the next one. Bubba73 01:23, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

Is it fair to say there is CONSENSUS on the first option for convention for chess articles?

p. (White will place his rooks on the d- and e-files) vs. (on the d and e-files)

(More MOSSY stuff. I assume the first is correct. Ihardlythinkso (talk) 08:33, 24 May 2012 (UTC))

Is it fair to say there is CONSENSUS on the first option for convention for chess articles?

I hope so. Web sources are always consistent; either you use the hyphen or you don't, but you don't mix them up like in the second example you gave. Same in book search. Dicklyon (talk) 05:34, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

q. (The best White move in the position was QxQ.) vs. (The best white move) ...and... (After 9.d5 Kasparov concluded the White side was superior.) vs. (the white side was superior)

(ProjChess has convention "White/Black" refers to players; "white/black" to pieces. But what if reference is to moves? Or to "sides"? Answer: confusion & inconsistency! Ihardlythinkso (talk) 08:33, 24 May 2012 (UTC))

I think it would be the "white side", just as the "white pieces". I think it should be a "White move", just as "a move by White", or "a Karpov move". Bubba73 06:31, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

Ok ... For "white side", I assume these would all fall in the same bushel basket: (white) "position", "center", "king's wing/queen's wing", "setup/configuration/structure", "castle position", etc.? And for "White move", these are in the same basket: (White) "combination", "attack/defense", "fork/pin/trap/shot/sacrifice", "strategy/plan/idea", "advantage/edge/initiative", etc.? (Maybe this is starting to make so much sense, it's scary!) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 09:09, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

I think this is a tough area. I've had cases where I didn't know which to use. Bubba73 01:25, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

A discussion at the Go talk page has developed, with a seeming consensus to put all these iffy color references in lowercase. (What do you think?) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 20:54, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

That would seem to be more in the spirit of MOS:CAPS; where sources are not consistent, we prefer lower case. Dicklyon (talk) 05:30, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Using the sources

I haven't found a convincing reason that the multiplication sign and en dash shouldn't be used in WP's chess articles. The most authoritative sources almost all use both. As someone points out above, the MoS does discuss changes that involve a large number of articles, and it's particularly relevant when the notation has not been properly discussed before.

A script could easily be written to manage the changes. Tony (talk) 00:01, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

"Easily" is exaggerated. It would need to change "12. Bxc3 N(5)xc3", "15 ...fxg", "R(a)xe2", "Nxh6+", "55. Kxg5!" "Qxh7#", "Why not 23. fxg5?", "43. bxc e. p. fxe1=Q", and "Kasparov should have played exf, immediately", but not change "Qf7 X" (one editor said he used X for checkmate), "6. examine each entry", "setup.exe", "license plate BXC3", "stock symbol GXH", "|title=How New AXB Regulations Affect You|", or "call sign EXF32 on a DX-pedition". And anything else I wouldn't anticipate until I tried it. I think I'd rather fix problems like speling first. Art LaPella (talk) 02:07, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

"The most authoritative sources almost all use both." Wow. Please quantify that. (What do you consider "the most authoritative sources"?) If you found eight books using "×", would you like to see a list of 80, that don't? And a logic question: How does "sources almost all use both" justify using a script to change a massive number of chess articles over to a lesser-used symbol? Ihardlythinkso (talk) 03:31, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

Tony1, may I ask ... To what extent is chess in your life? (Because, it seems obvious to me, the reason "×" vs. "x" in notation "has not been properly discussed before", is because most players wouldn't find that worth discussing – knowing "x" to be normal and best.) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 03:55, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

I used to run a chess club, but was the worst player. Although I don't read chess notation much at all, I could see the clear discrepancies between those two aspects of formatting in WP articles and the predominant practice in the authoritative sources. I have a PhD in the psychology of reading, and to me, what most of the major publishers do (including Penguin, if you please) makes sense. WP should follow professional examples. Tony (talk) 06:10, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

Um, Penguin is not anywhere close to being a noted publisher of chess books. (You know that, right?) They may be a "major publisher", but of chess books, certainly not. "Predominant practice in the authoritative sources" sounds mightily impressive, but what does it really mean? (I've asked prev if you could quantify it. It's hard to believe you mean the eight books you listed. What do you mean exactly?) I've checked a few dozen books in my library, publishers Batsford, McKay, Macmillan, Dover, Oxford, Chess Digest, Thinkers' Press, R-H-M, and many others. Mostly it's "x". But other times, a "thin/fine cross" is used (sans detail). Mostly the cross is at least as large as a small-cap letter, sometimes as big as capital "X"! I found only *one* example that used a smallish cross, it wasn't as tiny as WP's "×". For me, I have no problem with the fine, sans detail crosses – they looked okay. But crosses and "x"s occurred unpredictably (both) in different books even within a major publisher (like Batsford; though most of my Batsfords use "x"). If WP did want to consider the thin, sans detail cross, it would have to add a symbol like that to its arsenal. (Reason? Because the current tiny "×" symbol, for gamescores, really sucks!) Cheers. Ihardlythinkso (talk) 10:06, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

I find "x" the best, not just because most sources use it, but also because it just seems more logical to the beginner. If the beginner sees "Bxg7", it would be clearer that it's a capture because the "x" implies that something was "xed" on g7 – i.e. a capture took place there. "B×g7" would be more confusing, since the times sign has a completely different connotation. Double sharp (talk) 15:10, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

ENGVAR templates

Do we really need the WP:ENGVAR talk page templates, and their associated categories? Given the provisions of ENGVAR, do we really have to spell this out? Or should we be encouraging greater use of them? One user of Template:Indian English whom I keep coming across has a well documented nationalist pov, for which they have been topic banned, and I cannot help but think that the purpose of its inclusion is sometimes related more to making the point of national ownership than to any genuine guidance. It is not widely used (335 articles), and there are equivalent templates for other English versions, eg: Canadian (1247), British (3042) and American (1141). I guess that given the scale of articles written in each English variant, these templates are seriously underused ... but the project seems generally to get on perfectly ok without them.

In fact, my gut feeling is that the templates might act as an obstacle to improvement of articles. For example, it is common knowledge that there are swathes of poorly written India-related articles but on those where the banner exists, it may well act as a deterrent to improvement of prose by those with a better command of written English (in any of its forms). - Sitush (talk) 10:11, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

NB: I hesitated before posting here. If WP:VP or somewhere else would be better then just let me know. Thanks. - Sitush (talk) 10:12, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

Their prime value seems to me to be where there have been edit wars over ENGVAR issues. E.g. Cactus was at one time plagued with editors changing from American to British spellings – so much so that the article had to be protected. I'm not sure that the template prevents such edit wars, but it makes it easier for other editors to revert improper changes. Perhaps the message could be slightly altered. What we want to say is something like "Don't hesitate to improve this article even if you are not familiar with this ENGVAR and are not able to write in it, but don't change the ENGVAR of existing text without broad consensus." Peter coxhead (talk) 10:50, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

There really is value in these templates, especially to identify to editors that the vocabulary and usage found in the article may not match what they are used to. If the template is misused, then by all means remove it, but for e.g. when someone visits R. K. Narayan, the fact that words used within the article or for that matter even some phrases may not match standard AE/BE. Many, many Indian articles would use words such as lakh or crore which without the template would just result in being changed to millions etc. If we wish to standardize on one (or two) variant(s) of English, that's a different matter, but as long as ENGVAR exists in its current form, these templates provide a value. But like Peter notes above, these templates shouldn't indimidate an editor, just provide context. —SpacemanSpiff 12:49, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

I've generally found that terms such as crore and lakh are linked when they occur. I have no particular opinion regarding whether or not we should be aiming for a greater standardisation. - Sitush (talk) 13:04, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

If one comes upon an article with mixed usage, the template provides a quick way to determine which version the article should be corrected to. The templates would be better if there a way to link to the edit that established the variety, or a link to the talk page thread that established the variety. Jc3s5h (talk) 15:56, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

I find the template useful, and apply it to India related articles. The template indicates that there would be words which are specific to India used in the article, a fresh example comes to mind: "judicial custody" - which is an Indian legal term, though I wouldn't be surprised if it is also used in UK. Another is "card carrying communist" which I assume to be more common in India as the editor who brought this discussion about was stumped by it. There are many words of Indian origin which are freely used in the Indian media and they are used in Misplaced Pages articles when such sources are used. The template acts as a "note" that a particular style of English may be encountered. I see no reason to imagine that the template would act as an obstruction in improving articles, I just present one recent example of the quality of editing, of the editor, who has brought this discussion about: "In 2011, Kulkarni was remanded to judicial custody for a period and In November of that year was released on bail." With his professed concern for quality it is he who has reverted attempts to correct the above statement. It should also be noted that Indian English isn't some obscure creole but the dialect in which the world's most widely circulated English language broadsheet newspaper is written in.Yogesh Khandke (talk) 11:40, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Jc3s5h the subject of the article ought to be a good guide to the variety of English used to write the article. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 11:42, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Yogesh Khandke, that's only true if the article is about an English-speaking country or a person or company associated with one English-speaking country. It does not help with an article such as Algebra. Jc3s5h (talk) 12:13, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

True. I have used the template for Indian (from India) subjects, you are right, the template may create controversies if used say for example at Segregation in concrete, an article I created for which I used no template. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 12:40, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

One of the templates would be ideal for Segregation in concrete. For this article, the choice of variety of English would be completely arbitrary, so it is helpful to notify future editors which variety was chosen. For an article like New York City there is no need for a template because it should be obvious which variety to use. Jc3s5h (talk) 13:15, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

I have written most of the article, I write in Indian English, yet it wouldn't be fair imo to mark the article Indian English, I hope that there had been an International English language. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 14:13, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

There is no international English; English readers just have to learn to read all varieties. Jc3s5h (talk) 14:43, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Right. With online search the most obscure terms can be understood. However aren't we discussing the predicament of how an article like Segregation ought to be templated by a variety of English? Yogesh Khandke (talk) 14:49, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

{{od|8}At the moment, Segregation, a disambiguation page, does not seem to have any words that differ among varieties of English. If any such words are added in the future the editor who adds them could apply the template for the variety of English that the editor chooses. Jc3s5h (talk) 15:02, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

“With online search the most obscure terms can be understood”, but it's still an inconvenience. If there's a term which is understood in some English dialects only and an equivalent term which is understood in all English dialects, then we should use the latter, per WP:COMMONALITY. ― A. di M.​  19:12, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

It's a little bit unfortunate that, frankly, that Indian English is considered parallel to other varieties. India is really kind of marginal as an English-speaking country; the community of first-language speakers is very small. On the other hand, they do tend to be disproportionately influential. --Trovatore (talk) 21:33, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

I'd rather not see these templates on articles. With British and American English, the situation is a lot clearer because most dictionaries clearly specify the British or American variant of meaning or spelling. The problem with something like Indian English is that there is no reasonable way of figuring out what is or is not correct in Indian English since there are no dictionaries or grammars available. Because this is difficult, the template has primarily been used to push a pov view and, other than the occasional use of lakh or crore (easily taken care of through links), I don't see much else that the template can provide in the form of guidance. My suggestion is that ENGVAR templates be limited only to those languages where the variant itself is well defined and easily accessible. --regentspark (comment) 15:52, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

I would like to see the ENGVAR requirement revised so that only variants of English that have a significant number of dictionaries and grammar guides devoted to that form of English may be used in articles (excluding direct quotes and articles about the variations). Jc3s5h (talk) 16:03, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Seconded. I see little point in going down the route of 'Jamaican English' and 'New Zealand English', to name but two. --Ohconfucius 17:08, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

MOS:TIES should be clearly mentioned in article talk or somewhere in article body, in some India related articles, British English and American English are badly mixed up. You'll see the problem specially in date formats (DDMMYYYY (BrEn) and MMDDYYYY (AmEn) and some commons words like honour/honor, colour/color etc!
(posted from Wikipedia_talk:Noticeboard_for_India-related_topics#Suggestion_MOS:TIES)
--Tito Dutta ✉ 18:00, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Agreed that we should retain {{Use American English}}, {{Use British English}}, {{Use mdy dates}}, {{Use dmy dates}}. GoingBatty (talk) 18:17, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

et al. - italics or not?

There is a discussion on Template talk:Citation#display-authors concerning whether "et al." should be italicized. While MOS:FOREIGN states "Loanwords and borrowed phrases that have common usage in English—Gestapo, samurai, vice versa—do not require italics.", Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style (abbreviations)#Miscellaneous shortenings contains an italicized "et al." Is there some clarification that can be made to these MOS documents to make them consistent? Thanks! GoingBatty (talk) 22:35, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

As you point out, the relevant MOS page is WP:ABBR. Take note of the section Latin_abbreviations. Its content (given in full here) is quite clear:

In normal usage, abbreviations of Latin words and phrases should be italicised, except AD, c., e.g., etc. and i.e., which have become ordinary parts of the English language. The expansions of Latin abbreviations should still be italicised, as with most foreign words and phrases.

Do not use &c. in the place of etc.

The initialisms "e.g." and "i.e." should not be followed by a comma.

But "et al.", given in the table at the section Miscellaneous shortenings, is explicitly not among the common exceptions presented in the Latin abbreviations section.

The mention of "most foreign words and phrases" in what I quote above does not contradict MOS:FOREIGN: the listed exceptions have, in the words you quote from that MOS page, "common usage in English". They "have become ordinary parts of the English language".

I hope that helps. ☺♪♫♪

Noetica 23:31, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, N (even if I wasn't the persons that asked the question originally). I'm a bit surprised et al. isn't considered one that has become an ordinary English term, considering its commonality. I also find it interesting that the list doesn't include "vs."; sure, it may very well be the most thoroughly adopted Latin term in English, but it's still originally a Latin term. oknazevad (talk) 00:52, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Well, unlike “e.g.”, “i.e.” and “etc.”, “et al.” is almost exclusively found in academic writing. ― A. di M.​  14:12, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

MOS:Ety says "If looking for a good rule of thumb, do not italicize words that appear in Merriam-Webster Online." There is an entry for et al., so by this test it should not be italicized. Peter coxhead (talk) 14:47, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

That's not entirely helpful, as many dictionaries include common foreign words that should, generally, be italicised. Et al. is rather a special case that is becoming more familiar, but has not entirely arrived, so it rather straddles the divide. I believe CMoS (I don't have it right at hand) allows italicisation, or not, but recommends consistency which ever way is used. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 20:57, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

CMS16 (7.53) states:

Commonly used Latin words and abbreviations should not be italicized.

ibid.

et al.

ca.

passim

Because of its peculiar use in quoted matter, sic is best italicized.

---— Gadget850 (Ed)  21:36, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

APA6 p105 states: "Do not use italics for foreign phrases and abbreviations common in English (i.e., phrases found as main entries in Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, 2005). a posteriori et al. a priori per se ad lib vis-a-vis ---— Gadget850 (Ed)  21:46, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

So there really is quite a bit of evidence that "et al." should not be italicized... Peter coxhead (talk) 02:15, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Commonness is on a continuum, and any style guide that separates expressions on the basis of commonness necessarily makes a decision, however arbitrary it may be, about what expressions are designated as being common. Please see Continuum fallacy.

—Wavelength (talk) 16:13, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Given that the majority of the English linguage vocabulary is adopted from other linguages, this ir-regular stylustic detail never made sense to me. :-() If we must continue it, can we at least restrict it to article bodies? Getting formatting noise out of citations helps improve our ability to connect users with sources, and hence improves verifiability via citation of reliable sources that can actually be read. LeadSongDog come howl! 15:48, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

It always made sense to me, since et alia has not been adopted into English. Neither has loc. cit. or op. cit. These are Latin expressions used only in citations. Mostly they're best avoided (they were most just to save space in print media). And there are widespread uses of italics on "et al.", like in the LaTeX bibliography style packages that many of us use for academic articles, to comply with the styles of the journals (not all, but many). For WP, I'm happy to use either style, but we need to decide, not just belittle the arguments of those on different sides. Dicklyon (talk) 16:37, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

I agree that we should decide. Since there are valid arguments either way, my view is that in Misplaced Pages we should adopt the simplest, least visually obtrusive of the two styles, i.e. no italics. (In other contexts, e.g. academic writing, I would make a different choice.) Peter coxhead (talk) 08:20, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

No. Since, as you say, "there are valid arguments either way", we should be permissive of either way. I don't see that there is a compelling case that we must have only one way to do things. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 20:01, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

It doesn't follow that we should be permissive of either way. We often pick a WP style for things that would be right either way. I hear support for doing so here. Dicklyon (talk) 20:12, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

{{Citation/core}} does not use italics, thus the 23 Citation Style 1 general templates and the hundreds of specific source templates based on them do not use italics. {{Harvard citation/core}} does not use italics, thus the nine author-date templates based on it do not use italics. The question then: is there a compelling case to change the current behavior?

Hand-crafted citation can use italics or not, as long as they are consistent. ---— Gadget850 (Ed)  22:43, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

Probably it would be better for the MOS to say to not use italics in hand crafted citations, as that would make it hard for other editors to add consistent citations using the templates. Dicklyon (talk) 23:14, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

WP:CITEVAR has consistently been interpreted to apply to both visual and technical styles: an article should use either templates or hand-crafted, but not both. ---— Gadget850 (Ed)  23:48, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

As Noetica has stated above, the guideline explicitly excludes "et al." from the common exceptions. Therefore, we can conclude that it was determined to be not common. It should be italicized. On this matter, there is no discrepancy between WP:ABBR and MOS:FOREIGN. If editors are seeking clarification, then there it is. On the other hand, if editors are seeking a change, then I ask what the purpose of the change would be.

—Wavelength (talk) 23:32, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

Linked terms defined

Template:Formerly

I think this is the best place to ask, but the case is that if we bluelink to a not-too-common term within the running prose of an article, is it appropriate to define that term to the reader of the current article?

Diff in question to demonstrate what is being asked:

I think this is potentially a problem, particularly when we already have disagreements in the idea of what are germane links, here the question becomes "what are terms that need to be defined?", and further defeats the purpose of the bluelink; there's of course the issue with interrupting prose with the definition text. I think we should strive to put unfamiliar terms into some type of context (which in my diff example above, the remainder of said paragraph attempts to do), but the reader is a blue link away from learning of the term and thus needs no exact definition right there in the prose.

My concern is that if this becomes common practice (it doesn't seem to be at all), then article prose is going to ruined by editors going "Dur, I don't know this term, it needs to be defined here" all over the place. --MASEM (t) 14:31, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

We should not expect readers to need to constantly interrupt their reading of an article by following wikilinks just to find out what a term means. So my answer is that yes, if a term is uncommon or particularly technical, then it should be briefly glossed in the article regardless of whether there is a wikilink. I think the dif you cite is an model of how to provide a brief explanation for an unfamiliar term. Peter coxhead (talk) 14:53, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

I concur with Peter, but the explanation could have gone a little further. What's an "originating cause"? Darkfrog24 (talk)

I am revising the heading of this section from Explaining the meaning of a linked term within the body of the article that links to it to Linked terms defined, in harmony with WP:TPOC, point 13 (Section headings). Please see Microcontent: Headlines and Subject Lines (Alertbox).

—Wavelength (talk) 16:02, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

A brief definition does not defeat the purpose of the blue link, because the linked article should be encyclopedic, whereas the definition performs a function of a dictionary. Even in speech, one might include a brief definition, and one might also refer to a source of more detailed information.

—Wavelength (talk) 16:06, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

It's fair to say we're not a dictionary, but if we have a proper article on a term (being the case here), we would expect it defined in the first sentence, in addition to the rest of the expected encyclopedic coverage. (I have seen cases where a wikt: link is used to bluelink a term that doesn't have an article but is obscure).

Is it perhaps the point that in this specific instance, that the term is integral to understanding the context of the paragraph? Cases that are counter-examples are often when certain medical conditions or phobias are mentioned in passing but not a significant impact on the knowledge of the paragraph, where such terms are linked but not defined further. --MASEM (t) 16:17, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

i.e. and e.g. followed by a comma

There's a brief discussion on MOS:ABBR re: A prohibition against following "e.g." or "i.e." with a comma was introduced without discussion, partially undone without discussion, and further undone and then reverted with the current discussion Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style/Abbreviations#Comma after i.e., e.g.. -- JHunterJ (talk) 15:24, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Suggestion For Footnotes

I wasn't quite sure where to put this, but does anyone else think it would be useful to be able to see footnotes by mousing over the the in-article number linking to where they are placed on the page? By this I mean, in "some text in the article . more text.", moving you mouse over the '' would give a tool tip like box -such as those you get by moving the mouse over an icon on your computer- that would contain the the footnote. That way you wouldn't have to go to the bottom of the page to read it. I think it would make the reading experience much smoother and convenient then having to jump all over the place within the article page. Thoughts? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Manipulated DNA (talk • contribs) 05:51, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

To me that sounds like a topic for the village pump. I like the idea well enough; but it may make life even more complex for some of us.
Let me just record my aversion to calling them "footnotes". They're notes, right? In conventional printed books and the like, footnotes and endnotes are distinguished by whether they come at the foot of the relevant page, or the end of the volume (or perhaps chapter, or article). I wish people would always head the section of an article with the notes simply "Notes". But alas, see Help:Footnotes. At least the examples there, and the relevant section of that page itself, are headed "Notes". At MOS:LAYOUT the section gets called "Notes", "Footnotes", or "Endnotes" with confusing and seemingly arbitrary distinctions. Urk.
Carry on. ☺ Noetica 06:13, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing me to that area, I had no clue it existed. As to your frustration over the naming, I completely agree. I had to try and do what all I could to be sure people knew for sure what I meant, of course. --Manipulated DNA (talk) 06:22, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

Preferences → Gadgets → Reference Tooltips: Roll over any inline citation to see reference information, instead of having to jump away from the article text. And yes, our use of the name Footnotes for a particular system is horribly confusing, but it will never get changed at this point. ---— Gadget850 (Ed)  11:18, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

Sweet, already a option. Guess I didn't look around quite hard enough. Thank you. --Manipulated DNA (talk) 20:15, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

WP:ENGVAR and templates

Is there a guidance for templates and WP:ENGVAR? A template might be in UK English, and be used on an US English page. This is not mentioned as an exception. -DePiep (talk) 19:24, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

Seems like a mostly theoretical issue. Most templates are not supposed to stay long-term on articles (as opposed to, say, talk pages). The exceptions are things like hatnote templates, and I don't recall seeing any variety-specific wording in those. If something shows up on a talk page in the "wrong" English variety, that seems to me like an opportunity to practice equanimity. --Trovatore (talk) 19:37, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

There are templates which are intended to be permanent, e.g. those which define portals or ones like {{Biological systems}}. I haven't seen any of these which have enough text to show up English variants, but maybe there are some. Peter coxhead (talk) 19:51, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

What do you both mean with "not supposed to stay long-term on articles"/" intended to be permanent"? And that you cannot imagine the question does not imply that you can ignore it. Or, on second thought, maybe better do. -DePiep (talk) 19:58, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

I meant just what I said. You can leave the attitude somewhere else, please. --Trovatore (talk) 20:16, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

You did not answer the question. You assume theoreticalness. You tried to talk away my point. You did not ask anything or invoke any other conversation. And since you did not explain after my request, "templates are not supposed to stay long-term on articles" I declare is nonsense. Your 1st post was not helpful, and now you repeat that. -DePiep (talk) 20:25, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

Let me be explicit. I oppose any change in response to the point you bring up, because you have not demonstrated that there is any need for such. I do not have to demonstrate that there is not a need; rather, you have to demonstrate that there is. --Trovatore (talk) 20:45, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

Templates are independent of the article text. Perhaps this is too common-sense to bother mentioning. We're certainly not going to create duplicate templates to accommodate ENVAR. — kwami (talk) 20:47, 20 June 2012 (UTC)