Misplaced Pages

talk:Reliable sources - Misplaced Pages

Article snapshot taken from[REDACTED] with creative commons attribution-sharealike license. Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat. We can research this topic together.

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by SlimVirgin (talk | contribs) at 06:54, 29 April 2006 (archiving again: the page is too long). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Revision as of 06:54, 29 April 2006 by SlimVirgin (talk | contribs) (archiving again: the page is too long)(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff) Shortcut
  • ]

My view of this debate

I just noticed a mention of this on the Village pump. It appears to me that Fahrenheit451 does not understand the Verifiability policy (Misplaced Pages:Verifiability), and that Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources is really a corollary guideline in support of the Verifiability policy. I applaud SlimVirgin's efforts to keep this guideline consistent with the policy.

You presumption is incorrect. I suggest you stop guessing and speculating. The issues here involve many editors and the WP:NOR as well.

The real dispute here is over the Verifiability policy. Basically, Fahrenheit451 is unable to accept that assertions made on personal Web pages are inherently unreliable and unverifiable. It sounds like he or she has never done actual historical research. Furthermore, it's not too hard to find articles stored within databases run by reputable information providers; see Misplaced Pages:How to write a great article, which I have made extensive contributions to. For an example of what a properly researched article looks like, see the heavily footnoted Lawyer article, which I completely revised a month ago.

Wrong again. Stop guessing and speculating. Start asking. I see from you user page that you are an attorney. Perhaps you should employ your questioning skills, if extant, to ascertain the facts. --Fahrenheit451 00:07, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Of course, I have the advantage of living in a U.S. state that prides itself on open access to information (there are over 40 libraries with public access within 10 miles of where I sit right now). If Fahrenheit451 is too lazy, busy, old, infirm, disabled, etc. to go out there and dig up some reliable resources (they're called books), he or she may wish to limit their participation in Misplaced Pages to activities that do not require research, like editing or uploading self-taken photographs. --Coolcaesar 20:05, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

I am glad that you like California. It so happens that Florida has a stronger public records law in our constitution, and plenty of municipal libraries in the urbanized counties. I responded to your trolling personal attack below. --Fahrenheit451 00:07, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Please cool-off. Take a break if you need to. Thank you. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 00:19, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

In response to Fahrenheit451: Well, all your responses were conclusory statements rather than persuasive ones! That is, you merely stated my analysis is wrong, but you didn't say why. Turning back to the point, can you actually adduce any facts in support of your apparent belief that at least some personal websites are reliable sources? I have already noted here and elsewhere on Misplaced Pages the widespread availability of many reputable sources other than personal websites. --Coolcaesar 19:31, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

O.K. A personal website that displays affidavits and depositions would be as reliable as a corporate website that did same. --Fahrenheit451 23:54, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

A corperation has a governing body and is owned by its public. Its governing body owes their jobs to the stockholders of the corperation in one way or another, thence, a number of people, in one manner or another, have an interest in the quality the corperation posts and maintains. It is the element of responsibility that makes a personal website both powerful (can publish literally anything at all) and unreliable (one person can change their published views at any moment. Generally, a personal website will tend to be less stable, less conservative, more flambouant, more colorful and more responsive. While a personal website, funded by one person's own resources might contain the purest fantesy, a corperation website is in place to uphold an income and an image. By nature a corperation tends to be more stable and reliable than one person's fleeting opinion. Terryeo 02:16, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Personal attacks are a violation of[REDACTED] policy

Coolcaesar, you do not know me and I do not appreciate your personal attacks at Wikipedia_talk:Reliable_sources#My_view_of_this_debate. In fact, I have done much library research both in school and in college. I have an extensive personal library at home. I encourage you to constructively participate in our discussion. If you cannot do that, perhaps you should take your own hostile advice and limit your "participation in Misplaced Pages to activities that do not require research, like editing or uploading self-taken photographs". --Fahrenheit451 23:25, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

FAQ's

This article really needs to mention something about FAQ's. We need some guidance on this. For example, there is the "An Anarchist FAQ." If an editor on Misplaced Pages is one of the writers of that FAQ, and a sources is requested of him, all he has to do is add his original research to the FAQ and then come back and attempt to cite it. This has actually happened when I requested a source of someone. The FAQ is initially issued from a geocities.com website then it's circulated around, so how can it be claimed that it is a "partisan website"? What is the exact policy on this? RJII 20:34, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

This has actually happened when I requested a source of someone. Unsupportable accusation. RJII has personal problems with the FAQ. Read the above section "Citation fraud?" for his attempts to accuse one user of doing this. Now he's asserting his accusation as truth. -- infinity0 20:37, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
That website is what the policy refers to a "Personal website". As such, it cannot be used as a reference for anything other than the article An Anarchist FAQ itself. That is, if that website is notable enough to warrant an article in WP. I am not familiar with the subject, but if there are concerns of notability, you could try and ask for comments from other editors, via an WP:RFC. Now, in regard to your concern about the author of that FAQ editing the article in WP about that FAQ, please note that this is strongly discouraged by the community. See WP:AUTO ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 20:57, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
That website is not a personal website, just because it is hosted by geocities. "An Anarchist FAQ" is a widely distributed and well-received document in the anarchist community and it would be a crime not to allow it to be used as a source. It's mirrored on many websites, such as http://www.infoshop.org/faq/ which is the most popular anarchist website on the net. -- infinity0 21:03, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
But you've said elsewhere that people are allowed to add material to it, is that right? SlimVirgin 21:10, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Everything is checked by the editors. See http://www.infoshop.org/faq/intro.html for details. -- infinity0 21:14, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Are they published writers or researchers, or otherwise known? If not, I don't see how that helps. Example of the problem with personal and unsupervised websites: You added something to a Misplaced Pages article and it's challenged. The other editor asks you for a source. You look around and can't find one. So you go to this website and you add the material there. So long as it looks vaguely acceptable to the others, they won't remove it. Then you use the website as a source for your original edit on Misplaced Pages. That's exactly the kind of scenario this policy seeks to avoid. SlimVirgin 02:48, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Is there any way to get some kind of a ruling on the "An Anarchist FAQ." People are going to try to cite as a secondary source over and over. It would be good if there could be some kind of decision that could be referenced. Is an RFC, like Jossi suggested, the best way to go about this? RJII 03:04, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Can someone explain exactly how it works i.e. what the procedure is when people want to add something to it? SlimVirgin 03:37, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
SlimVirgin, it seems to be an "organic document" that keeps being edited (I found at least ten different versions in multiple mirrors). Theres is some copyright info and the names of the main contributors here: . ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 03:42, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Given the fluid nature of this document, and given that it is released under the GNU, one possibility would be to simply add it to Wikisource, and having an short article here. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 03:47, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
I've been told that anyone can add to it. Is that right? If so, what's the procedure? SlimVirgin 03:51, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
I do not think that there is a formal process as such. Seems that Ian McKay is the main writer. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 03:55, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
It says this in the intro page of the FAQ: "We are sure that there are many issues that the FAQ does not address. If you think of anything we could add or feel you have a question and answer which should be included, get in contact with us. The FAQ is not our "property" but belongs to the whole anarchist movement and so aims to be an organic, living creation. We desire to see it grow and expand with new ideas and inputs from as many people as possible. If you want to get involved with the FAQ then contact us. Similarly, if others (particularly anarchists) want to distribute all or part of it then feel free. It is a resource for the movement. For this reason we have "copylefted" the FAQ (see http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/copyleft.html for details)." And it says at the bottom of the page: "Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this document under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.1 or any later version published by the Free Software Foundation, and/or the terms of the GNU General Public License, Version 2.0 or any later version published by the Free Software Foundation." From mirror version at Infoshop.org I don't know how this kind of GNU thing works. Does this mean anyone can modify it and put it on their own website? Or do you have to email them or what? I don't know. But, it appears that the geocities site is where it originates. Whoever is running that site can add what they want and it eventually gets distributed around. But, it says permission is granted to modify, so does that mean I can edit it and post it? I don't know. RJII 04:03, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Here is the FAQ page on the Geocities cite: . It has a link to contact the "small collective" that works on the FAQ: From that, it looks like, you can email them and if they like what you want to put in the FAQ they'll add it to the version on that website. RJII 04:12, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

So, can anyone add information to this article specifically about FAQs, such as this? RJII 15:04, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

I removed all the statements sourced by the An Anarchist FAQ in the Anarchism and anarcho-capitalism article, and user:infinity0 comes along and puts them back in. What can be done about this violation of policy? Misplaced Pages information should not be corrupted by a non-credible source. RJII 18:10, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

RJII, you are demanding the source be excluded from wikipedia. An Anarchist FAQ is as viable a source as a published book on anarchism. It is published, just on the net. It is constantly being updated. Please give up this charade of "unreliability"; the bottom line is, you don't like what it says. -- infinity0 18:17, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
SlimVirgin, this source is very widely distributed and well-received - see An Anarchist FAQ#Influences. The editors are the guardians of the FAQ - they check all submissions carefully and they make sure that it is of sufficient quality to add. It is no more unreliable than a published book or whatever; although the content has originated from many different people, it has been checked by people who are well-educated in the subject, and know a lot about it. -- infinity0 18:20, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
"Published" on the net doesn't count. It's self-published on a Geocities.com website by people who apparently have no academic qualifications to comment. Just like the editorial comment on Misplaced Pages wouldn't be a credible source, neither is the FAQ. We can't have a situation where some Joe Blow can put original research into Misplaced Pages, then when someone requests a source, he goes and adds his original research to the FAQ and come back and cites it. RJII 18:25, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
RJII, you are needlessly attacking the authors. The document is very widely-received. You don't know their qualifications, yet you choose to imply instead that they have none. -- infinity0 18:28, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Infinity, the authors would have to be published authors in that field; otherwise, we can't use them. Do you know whether the authors are published, or in any way qualified in the field? SlimVirgin 18:47, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
The FAQ cannot be used as a primary source to describe what anarchists think, just because the qualifications of its authors are unknown? They are anarchists, which qualifies their opinion to be anarchist opinion. With all due respect I don't think you realise the scope of this document. People have written about it in academic journals. -- infinity0 19:54, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
So what if they're anarchists? That in itself doesn't qualify them as an authority on the philosophies on anarchist philosophy. For argument's sake, let's assume you're an anarchist. You go and type up an article about anarchism and post it on a website you set up. Do you really think that should be citable on Misplaced Pages? If you post it on 100 websites, does it give it any more credibility? No. Because you have no academic credentials, you haven't written in any journals, and are not a published author. You're just Joe Blow Internet Anarchist, a self-proclaimed authority on anarchist philosophy. It means nothing here. Misplaced Pages has sourcing standards. RJII 02:12, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
And, even if one person was found to be academically qualified, since the FAQ says there are a variety of contributors (and apparently you can email them to get your stuff in the FAQ if the guy who runs the Geocities cite likes it) how is one to know who said what in the FAQ? RJII 18:57, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Dude, obey the Misplaced Pages policy. RJII 18:47, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

I have email confirmation from AK Press.

zach blue <zach@akpress.org> to me More options Apr 27 (1 day ago)

Ximin,

We do not have a release date for it but the administrators of the FAQ are hard at work editing it down into a few volumes. Hopefully we'll see it in the next couple years but until then you'll have to read it online.

take care,

Zach (for AK Press)

The FAQ is going to be published by AK Press, no doubt about it. Thank you, RJII, and good night. -- infinity0 17:52, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

"Going to be published" is not good enough. And, "in the next couple of years"? LOL. Yeah right. RJII 02:16, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Edit by Simetrical

Please seek consensus before making sweeping changes to an established guideline. I am copying your edit below, so that it can be discussed. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 05:25, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

  • Sorry about that. I didn't expect it would be controversial, or I wouldn't have made it without discussion. I'm rather perplexed, but I'll try to explain why I think it should be there. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 00:25, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Current version

At the other end of the reliability scale lie personal websites, weblogs (blogs), bulletin boards, and Usenet posts, which are not acceptable as sources. Rare exceptions may be when a well-known professional person or acknowledged expert in a relevant field has set up a personal website using his or her real name. Even then, we should proceed with caution, because the information has been self-published, which means it has not been subject to any independent form of fact-checking.

Edit by Simetrical (talk · contribs)

At the other end of the reliability scale lie personal websites, weblogs (blogs), bulletin boards, and Usenet posts, which are mostly not acceptable as sources. Exceptions would include citing an eyewitness account to support a description of an event, citing a post made by a person to support a relevant quote from that person (for instance, an edit to a Misplaced Pages talk page by Jimbo Wales in the Misplaced Pages article to quote an opinion of his), or citing a website to provide primary-source documentation of an Internet phenomenon (e.g., a link in the O RLY article to the original owl image's posting or to a message-board post using the modified version). What is key is that all of these sources are primary evidence, and therefore inherently trustworthy; be much more cautious about citing secondary evidence from the Internet.

Comments
  • I wouldn't support that, and it would contradict parts of V and NOR. We're not supposed to use primary sources unless they've been published by a reliable source e.g. court transcripts published by a court stenographer. SlimVirgin 05:28, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
    • I don't see what parts of WP:V or WP:NOR it would contradict (not counting the places where they refer to WP:RS). Obviously, the primary source would have to be verifiable, but where such a primary source exists, there's no reason to exclude it. Take, say, Jimmy Wales#_note-5. That cites a primary source, Wikimedia's budget. Is that not verifiable? It's quite verifiable; a link is provided, and any number of reliable sources will tell you that wikimedia.org is the official website of the Foundation.

      As for original research, that page states that "research that consists of collecting and organizing information from existing primary and/or secondary sources is . . . strongly encouraged." Or, in my words, documenting existing and verifiable primary sources is within Misplaced Pages's scope, is what I was getting at. What exactly do you disagree with here? —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 00:25, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

  • Posts in USENET, forums, message boards, etc. are not reliable sources and should not be given exceptions as proposed. "Primary evidence" implies a value judgement on the part of editors about what consists "evidence" (as it compares with an "opinion"), and if that "evidence" should be trustworthy or not. That is outside of the realm of what this project is about. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 05:34, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
    • I don't understand this. In certain limited cases, the identity of a website's author, message board user, etc. can be verified. (For instance, many Internet forums that serve as "official" forums of a certain company will add a special graphic, such as the company logo, next to employees' names to verify their identity.) If this is true in a given case, how is a statement by such an individual not every bit as reliably attributable to that individual as if they said it in a news interview? What, in fact, is "unreliable" about such a communication? And how can you say that editors' evaluating the trustworthiness of evidence is outside the realm of this project, on the talk page of an editor-written guideline about the trustworthiness of evidence? —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 00:25, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Not acceptable edit. I would even vote for removing the rare exception for "experts". Experts publish their work in peer reviewed journals and we don't need their Blog entries as sources. Blogs should only be used as quote material for the editor that made the entry. i.e. Joe Blow said "blah blah blah --Tbeatty 06:37, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
    • Yes, that's all I was saying. If you can verify that X runs a blog/has a user account/whatever at a certain place, then if "Y" is written in that blog/by that user account/whatever, that should be citeable as a source to substantiate the fact that X did, in fact, say "Y". As I said: primary source, fine, secondary, bad. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 00:25, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
  • We're not supposed to use primary sources unless they've been published by a reliable source e.g. court transcripts published by a court stenographer --SV. My response: You are going overboard with this idea. If you read WP:V it says even regarding sources of dubias reliability: "Self-published sources, and published sources of dubious reliability, may be used only as sources of information on themselves, and only in articles about them". And in general it says for self-published sources: "Exceptions may be when a well-known, professional researcher in a relevant field, or a well-known professional journalist, has produced self-published material". I understand that court records are good sources of primary information, but I would also put forward that nearly anyone that has an article about them can have their website cited as a source in an article about them according to WP:V (even Stormfront.org). And for experts in the field, we can make exceptions to allow their information in. Nowhere does WP:V suggest that we are required to use only court transcripts as a reliable source. For just one example, David Touretzky has a personal web page at Carnegie-Mellon University. This has been his site for many years and a search of Carnie-Mellon's own systems show that this personal web page belongs to David Touretzky. So in the article about DST, I believe it is acceptable to use this page as a source for claims about what David has written or published or stated. And furthermore, I think that his personal website can be used in more than just his own article, but also for any article about one of his fields of expertise. (meaning he has been declared a published expert in the field by other reliable sources). I realize that we should prefer to use materials that is published in peer-reviewed journals and efforts should be made to do so, but I see nothing in the policies that indicate that personal websites cannot ever be used. It looks like exceptions can be made to me. Vivaldi (talk) 09:13, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
    A "rare exceptions" caveat is already included in the wording. Those rare exceptions should be obvious to editors as well as to readers. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 12:00, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Those rare exceptions should be obvious to editors as well as to readers. -- Jossi. My response: I don't believe the "rare exceptions" reasons need to be "obvious" to editors as well as readers. The rare exceptions just need to be accepted by the consensus of editors as necessary for making a good article. I would expect that these "rare exceptions" would certainly be talked about on the talk page, but stipulating that the reasons need to be "obvious" seems like your own idea. I would suggest that non-obvious reasons could also possibly be explained and fleshed out on the talk page and those non-obvious reasons could develop a consensus after being discussed. Vivaldi (talk) 16:36, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Silly line

"Personal websites and blogs should not be used as secondary sources. (para) That is, they should not be used as sources of information about a person or topic other than the owner of the website." How exactly would one use a personal site as a secondary source about the same person? The italicized clause is silly because it's impossible. --Davidstrauss 06:32, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

How is it impossible? The sentence says: Personal websites should not be used as sources on anything or anyone apart from the owner of the website. That is, should not be used as secondary sources or third-party sources. I'm not seeing the silliness or impossibility. SlimVirgin 07:07, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Some clarification on "personal website" would still be good - I see no particular reason that, say, the Lurker's Guide to Babylon 5 or Operation Clambake do not count as personal websites. Which just points further towards my main point, which is that these are not claims and issues that can be dealt with via cudgels, and the handing out of cudgels is only causing problems. Phil Sandifer 08:31, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
One of the things that distinguishes a personal website, or unreliable source, is that it lacks editorial oversight. Jayjg 19:40, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Then this section needs heavy revision, as there is no way that's a useful guideline. Phil Sandifer 02:52, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Clearly you are assuming that an individual is not responsible enough to oversee their own writings. Perhaps you should lecture Shakespeare, Newton, Riemann, and Durant on your theories of editorial oversight. --Fahrenheit451 23:46, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
No, I'm simply pointing out fact and good practice. Why is it that newspapers and book publishers actually have editors? Why are respectable journals edited and peer-reviewed? So that a second (and often third and fourth) set of eyes can have a look at the contents and, among other things, ensure that they are accurate and non-defamatory. As for your strange statement about Shakespeare etc., Shakespeare wrote fiction. Newton lived in the 17th century and Reimann in the early 19th century, long before the value of editorial overview was recognized. As for Durant, of course he had editors. Jayjg 01:39, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
I am trying mightily not to assume bad faith here, but it's getting difficult. Phil Sandifer 02:52, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
There is nothing wrong with claiming bad faith when bad faith is present. --Nikitchenko 01:09, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Query about a sentence

Hi Rjensen, I moved this because I'm not sure what it's saying: "Every research discipline evaluates the quality of its publications through its academic journals and the editors whould rely on those evaluations when evaluating the quality and reliability of the secondary sources." SlimVirgin 12:34, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

I find that the most comprehensible part of the whole paragraph. Maybe if you explained what you have difficulty understanding, it would help.
It appears to be an attempt to clarify and explain the rest of the paragraph, which is otherwise self-contradictory, and which, as many people have have suggested on this talk page, uses words and phrases with something other than their ordinary meanings in the English language. Gene Nygaard 13:54, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
I still do not understand what you are saying. Can you please clarify your points? ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 16:35, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Yes, that would be helpful. Jayjg 20:55, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm glad to see you agree with me for once. Gene Nygaard 06:34, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Unreliable sources

Just as someone boldly removed vandalism, I removed an unreliable source from the Scientology article and another editor reverted my changes with personal attacks and argument that WP:RS is not a policy. Exactly how does her actions improve article quality or[REDACTED] community quality? --Nikitchenko 01:51, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

WP:V is policy, Nikitchenko. You might want to look at that and see whether it covers your situation. SlimVirgin 02:18, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

The main question here concerns the Operation Clambake site at xenu.net and Tilman Hausherr's site at snafu.de. As it happens, the question of whether xenu.net is or is not a personal website is being considered by the Arbitration Committee at this moment.



--Tony Sidaway 02:30, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Deleted->challengedchallenged-2006-04-29T02:20:00.000Z">

I have changed the bolded section in the intro to:

If you can provide useful information to Misplaced Pages, please do so, but bear in mind that edits for which no reliable references are provided may be challenged by any editor.

While it is of course true that unsourced edits can be removed, this isn't a license to remove statements from articles willy nilly. Best practice depends on the context--for instance a potentially defamatory statement must always be removed first prior to discussion, but a statement that seems plausible but simply isn't adequately sourced may be commented out, removed or left in, depending on the judgement of the editor. The point being that discussion should normally be initiated. --Tony Sidaway 02:20, 29 April 2006 (UTC)challenged"> challenged">

Tony, this page must be consistent with poliy, which says they may be removed, and then makes some suggestions. We can copy that section in here for clarification, but we can't make anything here inconsistent with the policy. SlimVirgin 02:25, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
I'd object in the strongest possible way to this change. References are the foundation of the encyclopedia, and we don't need to be scratching away at them. And there seems to be some dichotomy here: That they can be removed is "of course true" but this has been removed from the page? Err, what? - brenneman 02:35, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Baloney. Nobody is going through and removing every unsourced claim from every article, and anybody who tried to do so would be blocked for vandalism. Phil Sandifer 02:56, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Well, Phil, I'd have shyed away from calling Tony's statement "Baloney" but you're essentially correct: The instances where unsourced material is removed are, in almost every case, uncontroversial. There's no need to weaken the argument for removing those claims that are extra-ordinary, and "willy-nilly" deletions aren't happening. - brenneman 03:04, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
If you sincerely believe that all unsourced material should be removed from articles, I invite you to replace the featured article Tea with User:Phil Sandifer/Tea, a version in which only sourced claims remain. Phil Sandifer 03:07, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
The policy (V) doesn't say all unsourced material should be removed; only that it may be, and then it expands a little on the appropriateness of various responses. SlimVirgin 03:12, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
All right, User:Phil Sandifer/Tea2 then. (Not finished yet, but you get the idea.) Phil Sandifer 03:34, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
(edit conflict)Phil, tea would only be a problem if we demanded footnote citations for every fact. But requiring sources for all facts, just means the fact should be mentioned somewhere in some source somewhere in the article (e.g. general references). If there are facts in Tea, which are mentioned in none of the sources listed (I haven't read them all), then a simple fix is to provide some good general references, which I would presume are easy to find, for people familiar. Since there are many full length books on the general topic (I assume, not being a tea person), it seems likely there's probably at least one book somewhere that pretty much backs up the whole article. BTW, I noticed in this removal, labelled "Slashed all unsourced material", you axed a claim the British love of tea, led them to sell Opium to balance the trade deficit. Some may think the Brits would have sold as much Opium, as aggresively, regardless of their thirst for tea. Such an item, would be a great place for a cite. --Rob 03:48, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Actually, WP:V, brilliant policy that it is, refers to the sourcing of individual statements. Phil Sandifer 03:51, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Each and every individual statement must be sourced, that is true. But the source does not have to be cited adjacent to the indivudal statement. It can be sourced in the general references alone, if it's uncontested. Also, WP:V doesn't really address the form of sourcing. That's left to WP:CITE. Policy has to do with the requirement to verify, not the minor details of how. --Rob 03:54, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

V says at the top in the summary box: "Editors adding new material to an article should cite a reputable source, or it may be removed by any editor." And later: "The burden of evidence lies with the editors who have made an edit or wish an edit to remain. Editors should therefore provide references ... Any edit lacking a source may be removed, but some editors may object if you remove material without giving people a chance to provide references. If you want to request a source for an unsourced statement, a good idea is to move it to the talk page. Alternatively, you may tag the sentence by adding the {{fact}} template ... If the article or information is about a living person, remove the unsourced information immediately ..." SlimVirgin 03:55, 29 April 2006 (UTC)challenged"> challenged">

In that case, we ought, at the very least, note that challenges on sentences ought not be done unless there is sincere doubt that the statement is in error. Otherwise the verifiability policy becomes an easy way to disrupt articles you just don't like very much - a skill Aaron has been particularly adept at. Phil Sandifer 03:59, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
The problem with your suggestion, is you're saying its ok to leave true material, that's not verifiable by others. I don't think that's right. Somebody could write a person is gay. You're suggesting, that can't be challenged unless I think its false. I may think somebody is gay (for many, it might look obvious tome), but I don't think it should be published by us, if not published elsewhere. I removed some allegations that certain people were prostitutes. I didn't know they weren't. But, I got a huge problem with people risking defamation, without proper backup. There's a lot of true stuff that hasn't been published anywhere, and we shouldn't be the first ones to do so. We shouldn't publish things that can be confirmed only by a phone call, or by e-mail. Even if defamation isn't an issue, verification is still needed, even for true items. --Rob 04:05, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
I've expanded the section here using material from V to say that editors are encouraged not to remove things immediately if they're not obviously wrong, absurd, or harmful, except in the case of living persons, when unsourced material should be removed immediately if it could be regarded as constituting criticism. SlimVirgin 04:19, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Excellent. This goes a long way towards including the sorts of escape hatches for common sense that these policies so depserately need. Phil Sandifer 04:20, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Thanks, Phil. Glad it helped. SlimVirgin 05:02, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Excellent addition! ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 05:04, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Misplaced Pages talk:Reliable sources Add topic