Talk:2012 United States Senate election in Massachusetts

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Vaulter (talk | contribs) at 05:11, 9 September 2012 (→Coatrack problem). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Revision as of 05:11, 9 September 2012 by Vaulter (talk | contribs) (→Coatrack problem)(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff)

This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.

United States: Massachusetts / Government Mid‑importance

	United States portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject United States, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of topics relating to the United States of America on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions. Template Usage Articles Requested! Become a Member Project Talk Alerts United StatesWikipedia:WikiProject United StatesTemplate:WikiProject United StatesUnited States
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
	Massachusetts portal This article is supported by WikiProject Massachusetts (assessed as Mid-importance).
	This article is supported by WikiProject U.S. Government (assessed as Mid-importance).

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.

U.S. Congress Mid‑importance

	United States portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject U.S. Congress, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the United States Congress on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.U.S. CongressWikipedia:WikiProject U.S. CongressTemplate:WikiProject U.S. CongressU.S. Congress
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
	This article has not yet been assigned a subject. The options are: "Person", "People", "Place", "Thing", or "Events".

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.

Elections and Referendums

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Elections and Referendums, an ongoing effort to improve the quality of, expand upon and create new articles relating to elections, electoral reform and other aspects of democratic decision-making. For more information, visit our project page.Elections and ReferendumsWikipedia:WikiProject Elections and ReferendumsTemplate:WikiProject Elections and ReferendumsElections and Referendums

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.

Politics Mid‑importance

	Politics portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of politics on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PoliticsWikipedia:WikiProject PoliticsTemplate:WikiProject Politicspolitics
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Polling order

Question: Should the polling list in chronological order? Please add your opinion to reach consensus. —GoldRingChip 18:40, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Yes. Reverse order makes no sense. There's no purpose in seeing it in reverse order when other information on this page is in forward order. Just because it's wrong on other pages doesn't mean it should be wrong here.—GoldRingChip 18:40, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

"Wrong" is your personal opinion, let's keep that clear first off. Secondly, the consensus on other pages is for reverse chronological order, so let's not automatically assume that whatever consensus is decided on here automatically applies to the other pages. I prefer reverse chronological order. I know that different people have different views, but to me the current political situation is the most important and deserves a more prominent position in the ordering. Maybe polls from a year ago can be useful if you want to track how you the race is progressing, but that can be seen just as easily using reverse chronological order. Rxguy (talk) 20:42, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

It absolutely makes sense to have the most recent poll at the top of the list. It's how every polling website on the internet does it. Doing it differently here is stubborn to the point of being obtuse. Examples: 1, 2, 3, 4. Moreover, this isn't just how every list of polls on every website (including wikipedia) does things. This is generally how all lists of time-sensitive stories/reports/polls/news items are presented everywhere. johnpseudo 21:16, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Will this remain "time sensitive" next year, after the election is over?—GoldRingChip 11:30, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

By "time-sensitive", I mean that old polls quickly lose their relevance once a new poll is published. So yes, a year from now the polls immediately before the election will be more relevant than the polls several months before. In either case, the ability to look at this historic record remains, and like I said- readers expect polls to be arranged in this order. Flipping things around has no utility. johnpseudo 14:06, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

In some articles, I've noticed other things in reverse chronological order, too. E.g.: California's 15th congressional district#Voting. Can we devise a standard?—GoldRingChip 14:13, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

This has been discussed extensively. No consensus is attainable. Professional pollsters list in reverse because the try to gain media attention, with the newest at the top. This is an encyclopedia, not newsmedia, so the standard is chronological. See quasi-edit-war at Talk:New York's 26th congressional district special election, 2011, sections "Polling in reverse order - misleading" and "Polling again". Nevertheless, the pollsters don't budge, and neither should the encyclopedians... Kraxler (talk) 21:03, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Again, I don't think it's appropriate to change the order of the polls here from how every other article (20+ articles in the 2012 Senate category alone) does polling order. If you want to change the way we do things, you should try to get some broader consensus. Perhaps take it to the Politics WikiProject page or leave notes linking back here on some of the other more heavily-trafficked articles. johnpseudo 14:38, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

I agree that we should seek a broader consensus at a better-trafficked page, such as a Wikiproject page. Until then, however, this page remains in correct chronological order.—GoldRingChip 15:23, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

Johnpseudo, you do your reverse order at your polling sites or your campaign headquarters, not at Misplaced Pages. Chronological order for all historic events is total consensus here, and written into a guideline. Why should pollsters get an exception? Misplaced Pages does not just copy from other sources, encyclopedians re-write text and re-arrange tables to present a matter in an understandable way. Kraxler (talk) 15:42, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

Okay, so I suppose you're going to change every other election article on wikipedia? (BTW, you need to look up what consensus means if you think 2 vs 1 = consensus) johnpseudo 16:14, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

Johnpseudo, First: it's not a question of 2 to 1 here, it's a question of Misplaced Pages vs. outside usage, see above. Outside Misplaced Pages you can write up the polls in Chinese characters if you like. And second, please do not believe that I've never heard a fallacious argument before. I (or GoldRingChip or whoever) will change other articles as they get aware of them, or as they find the time to do so. Imagine, you get a speeding ticket, and you ask the policemen if he will fine every speeder at all times, or if some might get away with it. So, if not (obviously he can't, not being ubiquitous), why shouldn't he let you go too? Think about it. (Note: This was a metaphor). Kraxler (talk) 17:50, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

My point is that this arguments obviously needs more input from other editors. Based on the fact that nearly every election article outside of this one uses reverse chronological order, I feel pretty comfortable that the overall consensus is on my side. This isn't a list of historic events like the articles you seem to be familiar with. This is a situation where a poll closer to the date of an election is just more important than a poll taken months prior. A poll taken a year before is basically just speculation. Often the main candidates haven't even entered the race, or some major event has yet to occur that will make the poll irrelevant. If an article is about the election itself, the article should prioritize information that is still relevant to that election rather than telling the story of how the race has developed over time. For example, if you opened an article about the assassination of Abraham Lincoln, you wouldn't expect to find 3 pages of biographical information about all the people in Lincoln's political career who unsuccessfully plotted to kill him before hearing about how the Booth actually did the deed. The most relevant information about an election is who wins or is predicted to win, not who was first expected to win when someone first decided to poll the race. johnpseudo 18:51, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

Actually, this is a list of historic events like the articles I seem to be familiar with. I'd be happy to engage in a further discussion seeking consensus on a website with a broader readership, just as you suggest. —GoldRingChip 19:35, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

I agree with johnpseudo. I can't even find one example of people listing polls in chronological order. It doesn't happen. This has broad consensus across all of Misplaced Pages and the rest of the web. It seems as though you are left totally without a valid argument. Respectfully, Light-jet pilot (talk) 21:54, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

I was asked on my talk page for my opinion on this matter, and I would agree with those supporting listing polling data in reverse chronological order. While an election's final outcome is the only poll that truly matters in the end, the most recent polling data have more importance during the course of a campaign than figures from weeks and months prior. While what Kraxler mentioned about professional pollsters listing polls in reverse chronological order to get media attention is true, I would think that a lot of people come to Misplaced Pages for the latest, most up-to-date information as well. In my work on the 2010 and 2012 Connecticut U.S. Senate articles, reverse chronological order has been the standard used.

While my support today goes to using reverse chronological order, I do wonder if perhaps sortable tables might be something worth exploring in the future. —Sgt. R.K. Blue (talk) 11:13, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

GoldRingChip, do you have any more thoughts? It'll be hard to make much more progress if you don't add to the conversation. If you have the time to revert changes, you have the time to talk. So far I've seen very little substantive discussion from you or Kraxler- you both seem focused more on the "we're different from pollsters" angle, rather than talking about why exactly chronological order is appropriate in this case. johnpseudo 12:31, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Let's build a consensus on a website with a broader readership, just as you suggest.—GoldRingChip 15:00, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

I already left notices on the 2012 US Senate elections article talk page and the Elections wikiproject. That's where Light-jet pilot and Sgt. R.K. Blue came from. I thought we could just bring more editors here rather than actually restarting the conversation elsewhere. johnpseudo 15:55, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

I suggest you restart the conversation there freshly. Just propose it without all the huff-and-puff dialog we've had here. Ask people to support or oppose your proposal. Cross post it with Project Congress, Project U.S., Misplaced Pages:WikiProject United States Public Policy, Misplaced Pages:WikiProject United States Government, Misplaced Pages:WikiProject U.S. Presidents, and Misplaced Pages:WikiProject United States presidential elections. Direct them all to the elections wikiproject. In fact, make a new subpage dedicated just to polling and ask for a consensus.—GoldRingChip 18:21, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Actually, since the rest of wikipolling is already in reverse-chronological order, and this is the only example of chronological order, the "proposal" would be yours to make. Light-jet pilot (talk) 22:48, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Ah, this old chestnut again. The fact is, almost every single page that features polling, whether it's in the US or the UK or Canada etc has the most recent poll at the top. It's only in the odd page, like this one, that some editors go against the consensus and put the most recent polls at the bottom. To be honest, it's not really something worth arguing and debating over. 99% of pages do it one way, which is easier to read and also to update and there's the 1% of pages that don't. If editors want to make a proposal, they are welcome to but I just don't see the point. Tiller54 (talk) 23:21, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Importance is irrelevant, historic events are told in chronological order. We (encyclopedians) don't start a bio with the most important things in a person's life, and then jump around according to decreasing importance, and possibly causing edit-wars because editors haggle about what is more or less important, we use a chronological sequence, beginning with the subject's birth, and ending with the subject's death. It sounds reasonable to me.

The problem here is that no ordinary editor here adds polls, it's done only by real-life pollsters who do not care for encyclopedic content, but abuse Misplaced Pages as a campaign platform. About the alleged quasi-"consensus", there is the fallacious argument agian. <Metaphor>We don't allow rapists to use guns to threaten their victims because most rapists threaten their victims with guns, or do we?</Metaphor> Polls are non-events, they are fabricated misinformation, as the totally different actual election results show many times. Nevertheless, the polls were made and published, so they might as well be added here, if the chronological sequence of events could be maintained. Kraxler (talk) 13:59, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

"The problem here is that no ordinary editor here adds polls, it's done only by real-life pollsters who do not care for encyclopedic content, but abuse Misplaced Pages as a campaign platform". 1. I'm not a "real-life pollster". 2. I'm not here to abuse Misplaced Pages, I'm here to contribute just like most editors are. Thanks for assuming good faith, btw. 3. I don't work for any campaign or have a platform to promote. You clearly have no interest in sensible discussion of this issue, you're just pursuing some ridiculous vendetta against me and other editors who add polling data. Tiller54 (talk) 20:30, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Well said, Tiller54! Nothing but the truth! >>Light-jet pilot (talk) 03:15, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

"Everybody else does it" is not consensus. "Everybody, once informed and discussed, agrees" is. For the third time, I ask you to post a discussion at a more broadly-read place. I've allowed you to phrase it yourself, thereby letting you phrase the question in your own way. I've advised you on where to cross-post it. I think this is a very emotional issue for you (out-of-chronological-order) editors, so I've let you control the debate. But until you give me either a logical reason or a consensus reason, I can't learn why we should post a chronological list in reverse chronological order.—GoldRingChip 10:44, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Simply demanding that other editors follow your orders (creating a new venue for discussion when this one is perfectly suitable) is not a productive way to add to the discussion. I've put notices on the relevant article talk pages to direct whoever is interested to add to this discussion. Three editors have obviously taken me up on that. They've all supported my position. It's up to you to move this argument forward in any method you feel to be appropriate. If you refuse to add any substantive to the discussion, and Kraxler continues to repeat his screed against "pollsters abusing Misplaced Pages", I will suggest that we start the path down Misplaced Pages's official dispute resolution process. johnpseudo 19:46, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

I give up. I let you make the argument any way, any where, any how. And you're still not satisfied?—GoldRingChip 23:35, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

All I want is for us to have a discussion. You seem to be refusing to have one here. And you seem unwilling to start a new discussion elsewhere. johnpseudo 16:09, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

At New York's 26th congressional district special election, 2011, 6 editors added polls in chronological order, and were reversed every time by self-ordained patrolman Tiller54, causing an edit-war. So much for "everybody else does". Apparently everybody else does not, but gets tired of being reversed by a small abusing minority. Be my guest, johnpseudo, hope to see you soon before the arbitration committee. Kraxler (talk) 01:12, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Where are these editors? I'd love to have them (or anyone else) come here to join in the discussion. Maybe I wasn't broad enough in my invitation to have other editors come here to give their input. I'll go ahead and spread the word, since we have a general dearth of substantive conversation coming from you or GoldRingChip. I really don't want to waste the time of the mediators/arbitrators, but nobody seems to be adding anything new. johnpseudo 16:09, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

I'm just responding from the post left @ WPUS. Without reading the long string above, why can't we just make the table sortable? Then the reader could sort it how they want rather than how we think it should be built? Kumioko (talk) 16:49, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Ideally, the polling results should be discussed in prose text. In an encyclopedia, data tables supplement and support prose; they don't substitute for prose. The prose discussion would normally be in forward chronological order, which means that the supporting table(s) should also use forward chronological order. --Orlady (talk) 17:18, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

True thats a good point. In fact if an article goes to FA or FL they require that the information be presented in chronological order. Kumioko (talk) 19:04, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

I'm primarily just hoping that whatever we decide here can help guide a standard that can be applied to all of the hundreds of election articles with poll lists. This is the only one I'm aware of that uses chronological order. johnpseudo 19:07, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

They should all use Chron order IMO, since that is what would be required if they got to featured. Kumioko (talk) 19:29, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Being a featured article requires chronological order? That surprises me. Can you confirm (cite) that?—GoldRingChip 21:46, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

@johnpseudo; This is the only one I'm aware of that uses chronological order. - Quite surprising, since I mentioned the NY26 special election twice already. FYI, that uses chronological order too. I guess you ignored it on purpose. See you at arbitration... Kraxler (talk) 00:34, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

@Kraxler, if you're going to take it to arbitration, than actually take it to arbitration. If you're NOT going to...don't say it. >>Light-jet pilot (talk) 04:24, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

Quit being a drama queen, Kraxler. It slipped my mind. And there's not much difference between one or two articles in the context of the hundreds in reverse-chronological order. johnpseudo 11:41, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

@johnpseudo Please observe WP:CIVIL. We are debating issues here, not other editors. There is a difference of exactly 100 % between one and two, and there may be more. Besides, it shows that you do not read other editors arguments, and that you do not check out data/links which are contributed to the debate by opposing editors. That's why I quit debating the issue (waste of time, under the circumstances), and am very anxious to see you at arbitration. I doubt that the arbitration committee makes a decision without reading the full discussion. I won't take it there (I hope somebody does) as long as you don't mess up this article (or any other article I come across) with reverse order. I know the guidelines, I suggest you read WP:POINT. (I quote: "Do not disrupt Misplaced Pages, just to make a point!") Kraxler (talk) 16:14, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

You know, we actually benefit from dropping this argument. You will "win" your little vendetta, and 98% of Wikipolling will still be as we like it. And as for WP:CIVIL, you are breaking it more than he is. >>Light-jet pilot (talk) 16:26, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

As little as chronological order makes sense to me in this context, leaving this article in a different order than (nearly) every other article makes even less sense. I want to resolve this, preferably without needing to involve anyone who hasn't volunteered their opinion. Going through the official conflict resolution process would show a failure on our part to work this out. I want to work this out, and I want all of the articles to be consistent. I'm in the process of trying to convert the tables into sortable tables (although that's going to be extremely time-consuming), and I've found one[REDACTED] guideline that may be relevant here:

Special cases which specifically require frequent daily additions, such as Deaths in 2012, may use reverse chronological order for temporary convenience, although these articles should revert to non-reverse order when the article has stabilized, such as Deaths in 2003.
— Misplaced Pages:Manual_of_Style/Stand-alone_lists#Chronological_ordering

This isn't precisely relevant, given that this is not a stand-alone list and is not being updated daily. It also isn't taking into account the special circumstances I believe exist in this case, where earlier events are less important than later events. Still, I could see some logic in using reverse-chronological order up until the election and then chronological order afterwards. johnpseudo 17:13, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

I'd be fine with that. >>Light-jet pilot (talk) 03:05, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

Yes. The narrative of most WP election articles and politicians' blps follows a chronological order in general. Most non-specialist readers and new editors would reasonably expect the polling section to follow the same pattern as the rest of the article of which it is a part. The claims that "almost every single page that features polling, whether it's in the US or the UK or Canada etc has the most recent poll at the top" and "the problem here is that no ordinary editor here adds polls, it's done only by real-life pollsters" are simply wrong — depending on how "features" is defined (does it mean any articles that include several polls conducted at different time points?). It may be that the majority of elections articles that include poll data do follow reverse chronological order (I do not know), but if so, there are still a significant minority of articles describing high-profile candidates and races that do not. In fact, had I not seen the notice of this debate on one of the elections & referenda projects pages, I would not have realized that this is even an issue of concern for some editors. A few pages I have recently read or edited that have not been following a strict reverse chronological order in the polls section include Barack Obama presidential campaign, 2012; Florida gubernatorial election, 2010; Ron Paul presidential campaign, 2012; Governorship of Mitt Romney (not an election article, but still a list of several polls is included in a chart). In these cases, each article's edits seem to have been made by a variety wikipedians, editors who apparently are not professional pollsters (although I have no way of knowing that). The polls sections in these cases also contain relatively few data points and seem to lack the gloss and polish that you will find in the more comprehensive charts, such as at Nationwide opinion polling for the United States presidential election, 2008. My sense is that when an article's polls sections is tended by experienced editors who are familiar with and prefer the reverse-chronological pattern, the polls section will be kept in reverse-chronological order; but when the editors who are contributing are not familiar with that convention, such as is usually the case with newer or infrequent editors, the result is more likely to be a natural outgrowth of the narrative chronological order that already characterizes the rest of the article (assuming it's not a polls-only article). The exception to the latter situation would be when a large number of polls is being added at some time removed from when most of the polls were conducted, in which case the editors are more likely to have the convenience of relying on a ready-made collection of polls in a single or handful of sources (eg, in the US, realclearpolitics.com), in which the polls are already listed in reverse-chronological order; in that case, it's less work to simply copy the polls from the source(s) to the WP article than to reverse the order to the (forward) chronological.

I think the sortable-table idea is definitely worth considering, but (in the software's current configuration) it would make edits harder for new or infrequent editors. Rules that make editing harder are a barrier to the growth of wikipedia. The threshold for adoption of such rules should be that the clarity that results from the rules outweighs the loss of contributions by editors who are intimidated by the rule requirements. I'm not sure that that threshold would be met for cases in which there are only a few polls to deal with. (Although the goal of a sortable table would be great as a guideline for high-profile elections with many data points.)

As for the suggestion that polls be listed chronologically until the conclusion of the election, then switched to reverse-chronological thereafter, this could work out, but would require a bit of extra work. It would also be likely to result in a number of lower-profile articles tending to be indefinitely left out of compliance with the formal standard. (Could a script that would switch the data be written to help out?) A related but broader question is Should the polls sections of all WP articles on politicians (not just elections articles) be written in reverse-chronological order? It would be somewhat confusing to adopt a standard that applied only to elections articles, since polls sections are not limited to elections articles. Dezastru (talk) 15:19, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

I suppose I should clarify, for anyone to whom it isn't abundantly obvious, that my thoughts above are on what a general policy should be across[REDACTED] rather than for this article per se. Dezastru (talk) 16:19, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

It's reasonable for such current events ("live") articles to list the latest poll first, and to list all in reverse order if you wish. 'Afterward, such as coverage of 2008 polls today or December 2008, any such list should be forward chronological. -P64

Five cents on chronological list order

Here are my five cents. The latter three provide for illustration three articles where I have worked heavily.

Where ordering by chronology is reasonable, rather than by name or another alternative, lists should use forward chronological order. Some WP guideline or policy prescribes this. Some suggests or permits reverse order for lists that grow frequently because they follow frequent current events. Consider your WP:WATCHLIST, but this is permitted or suggested for some list articles. (This month I have read it but now don't find it quickly. I might later provide links and delete this note.)
So the 2012 Boston Red Sox season#Game log ("show" template) might display reverse order, iiuc. To me that would make sense if the log were a WP:standalone list, where there would be a case for showing the recent listings on the first screen for many visitors.
I support the organization of Bermuda Bowl which covers a now-biennial competition. The historical record is chronological but section "Latest rendition" precedes all of the history. Internally, that section too is mainly chronological but coverage of the outcome and "Final" match is first. For most other competitions in the same family, there is no full "Latest rendition". Brief coverage of the latest and next renditions still precedes the generally chronological narrative because it appears in the last lines of the lead (as here where there is a full Latest rendition).
Many articles on annual literary awards list winners (Kate Greenaway Medal) or winners and finalists (Caldecott Medal) in reverse chronological award (violating policy or guideline, iiuc). I converted the former plain list to a wikitable last month, improving the display in some ways but retaining reverse order. I made the table sortable, and its first column gives the dates in sortable fashion (despite some markup), so that many readers can readily undo the reverse order. The subsequent list of finalists is backward and fixed, however. (I added 2012 to the top of that list. If I were British, maybe I would have made that "Current rendition" following the lead. I did put brief coverage of the current rendition at the end of the lead.)
1. The equivalent U.S. Caldecott Medal presents winners and runners up in chronological order, intermingled in one sortable table. The chronological order can be reversed, but that complicates the intermingling. Editors have used a distinct color background for the annual winner in order to help interpret the table when sorted or re-sorted by any of its first three columns.

For U.S. National Book Award award categories, one of our four lists of winners and finalists displays 2011 to 1984 backward, 1964 to 1983 forward, and 1963 to 1950 backward. I wrote the very long middle section in forward order because I expect the other parts to be re-ordered someday. And because National Book Award for Nonfiction, the case in point, thereby reflects our technically simple coverage of the other three award categories: two backward and one forward!

The last doesn't add anything new, so please consider 4.1 one of my five cents. --P64 (talk) 16:11, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Came here from WikiProject U.S. Congress; perhaps a compromise? 'Most recent polls' at top and 'Other polls' chronological thereafter? Barring a compromise I'll note Misplaced Pages has made exceptions for other 'industry-wide standards' (see WikiProject Birds, naming), and note we a) provide introduction summaries, normally listing current position without (German language waiting 100 words for the verb). b) Most recent polls could easily be a separate section, available from the Contents table, whether it's above or below. Dru of Id (talk) 12:55, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Either compromise sounds good. >>Light-jet pilot (talk) 13:52, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Endorsements

What's the point of listing the endorsements? The Republicans are going to endorse the Republican and likewise the Democrats. Hardly worthy of noting in an encyclopedia.—GoldRingChip 12:05, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

Except when Democrats endorse Brown. Hot Stop 02:50, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

How dare you take out the endorsement page it adds a lot to the article it is legitimate info well cited and the brown page included a lot of democratic endorsements as well as senator snowe who generally doesn't endorse in out state races anyway I worked hard on that page and am reinstating it immediatelyCotton Rogers (talk) 22:52, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

Also included celebrity endorsement of Dave Cowens and we have an endorsement page for the general presidential election why not delete that too. also democrats endorsed brown and that is worth noting anyway do not re-delete or I will report it as vandalism Cotton Rogers (talk) 22:58, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

"How dare you" is not a good way to open a discussion. I'm sorry I took something out that offended you. I've restored it. That you put a lot of work into it shouldn't be relevant, nor that it's done elsewhere (such as in the presidential election), because the material should stand on its own merit. Perhaps we should maintain the section with limits for unusual endorsements such as the ones you mention. Just a long list of obvious endorsements, however, seems irrelevant and doesn't meet the standards of an encyclopedia. So what do you say?—GoldRingChip 17:07, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the apology and I concede I was out of line in my opening, but you where out of line when you deleted that information for reasons of opinion that were not at all factually correct since there were many cross party endorsements not to mention that endorsements are usually a section of other articles pertaining towards elections is absolutely relevant since that is a clear sign of common consensus of what the encyclopedia and wiki community has deemed relevant and necessary to include in an article also to claim that all members of the same political party always give an official endorsement to another in their party is erroneous Brown was mostly endorse by moderate GOP mostly not by those usually associated with the tea party unlike the last election which is important to note for historical posterity same goes for Warren who is mostly endorsed by Liberal democrats and not by those typically associated with the moderate wing such as Joe Lieberman it is important to see where each candidate fits in the complicated prisms of their respective political parties another point is that Obama does it always endorse the democratic candidate some do not want it such as southern and Midwestern dems while others who want it are refused it see Frank Caprio or Rhode Island gubernatorial election, 2010. I think you view of the mechanics, customs and usual workings of a political party are oversimplified it is much more complicated then all of that therefore I'm for letting the section stand and continue as it is now, it might be imperfect but the best course of action is not to set any limits to itCotton Rogers (talk) 21:55, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
Forgot to say in my previous rant that you did not restore it, I did by undoing your edit Cotton Rogers (talk) 21:59, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

We can let it stand, as you suggest.—GoldRingChip 14:45, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Warren as the presumptive nominee

The Democratic primary is contested in name - but by that argument so is the current presidential republican nomination. Can someone explain why we can't put the presumptive nominee up? Hipocrite (talk) 16:20, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Sources for presumptive - , , , and I could honestly do this all day. Hipocrite (talk) 16:24, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

She's presumptive, I agree. She's very likely, I'll add. I think we could put that discussion in the body of the article with citations. But I don't see a reason to declare it a done deal in the info box. Perhaps in the body of the article you could say something like, "] is greatly leading the race to be the Democratic nominee."<ref>citation, blah, blah</ref>—GoldRingChip 16:38, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Do you think that other, more widely watched articles like United States presidential election, 2012 should guide our decision making here? I mean, Ron Paul could still win all the remaining primaries and sew up the nomination, right? Hipocrite (talk) 16:48, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

I suppose, but I'm reluctant to expand it to a larger precedent. Once difference, for example, is that Mitt Romney has actually been though a slough of primary elections, whereas Elizabeth Warren has just polled well. Polling is a lot less reliable than elections, even incomplete primaries. I'm suggesting therefore, that we leave the info box blank (or TBD) and put more discussion in the body.—GoldRingChip 17:07, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Individual state elections reflect much less than polls over the entirety of the area that will be elected in the future. Again - Ron Paul could sweep the remaining primaries - not that this is very likley, but it's about as likley as Warren not being the nominee, and if we just looked at the most recent primary, we'd argue that's what is the most likley case. We should not be forced by technicalities to reflect the race wrongly, and the word "presumptive," works both here and there, and is sourced. Hipocrite (talk) 17:31, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

I just don't think it belongs in the info box. That box is more black-letter. Just leave the info box without a stated nominee and write elsewhere that Warren is presumptive.—GoldRingChip 17:45, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Quite right, GoldRingChip. Hipocrite, please check at WP:What Misplaced Pages is not. It's not newsmedia, and it's not a campaign platform, and it's not a forecast of future events. Nominations are called nominations after they were made. Leading the polls should be called here "leading the polls", is that too difficult to understand? This is an encyclopedia, it states facts. Kraxler (talk) 09:45, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

She is not merely "leading in the polls," she is reliably sourced as the presumptive nominee. Further, remain civil. Hipocrite (talk) 13:34, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

Newsmedia can write what they like, but Misplaced Pages does not presume. Check it out at the link I gave you above, Hipocrite. The infobox can only be filled after the primary, and that's absolute. Describe the current state of things in the text of the article. Kraxler (talk) 15:33, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

We all agree she is "presumed" to be the nominee. Can't we just write that in the body but leave the infobox 'tbd'?—GoldRingChip 15:35, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

Campaign content

Quite empty, please help around ! Positive proposals, attacks on the other side, budget. Yug (talk) 14:55, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Coatrack problem

Someone keeps pasting an old version of Elizabeth_Warren#Cherokee_self-identification into the 'General_election_campaign' section of this article. This violates WP:COATRACK. If it doesn't belong in the section about her senate run in the article on Elizabeth Warren, it certainly doesn't belong here. Will the person doing this please stop. FurrySings (talk) 05:32, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

WP:COATRACK does not apply to the section on Warren's Native American heritage controversy because it is not irrelevant. This story has been one of the most publicized of this campaign and belongs in a section about the general election. --Hirolovesswords (talk) 05:56, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

WP:COATRACK applies directly to this issue, and what you wrote shows that you are determined to ignore policy. Looking at your other edits, it appears that you are editing with a consistent bias. Please respect Misplaced Pages policy and guidelines and stop introducing POV into articles, especially about living persons. Respect WP:BLP. FurrySings (talk) 12:19, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

First, Coatrack is an essay, not a policy. Second, these edits do not violate WP:BLP which states "If an allegation or incident is noteworthy, relevant, and well-documented, it belongs in the article — even if it is negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it." --Hirolovesswords (talk) 14:52, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

Coatrack or not, it was an excessive amount of discussion about a trivial subject. It's a politicized issue: Republicans are running hard on it, and Democrats are trying to brush it away. At most, it deserves a single sentence, no more.—GoldRingChip 22:31, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

This story has received significant coverage beyond a relatively short news cycle by a variety of sources including The Boston Globe, The New York Times, The Boston Herald, The Washington Post, MassLive.com, ABC News, CBS News, and WFXT. Reducing it to one sentence gives it less WP:WEIGHT than it deserves. --Hirolovesswords (talk) 02:47, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. This has been the major story of the campaign so far, and deserves at least a paragraph. Hot Stop (Edits) 03:50, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Put it in the Elizabeth Warren article if you can. If you can't it certainly doesn't belong here. This is a BLP violation, and I will continue to treat it as such. Stop your politically biased editing. FurrySings (talk) 05:00, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

It's not. It's well sourced from a variety of news sources. And there's no consensus to keep removing it. Hot Stop (Edits) 05:11, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Independent Bill Cimbrelo on ballot but no mention ?

As he is at last check on the ballot for the November election for said senate seat in the 2012 Massachusetts Senate election (running as an independent Campaign Page) should he not at least be mentioned and or noted and at least put in the 'Results' section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.147.30.7 (talk) 22:39, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

Categories: