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Proposal:Create a capability and process to expunge a block from someone's record when all agree that it was an error

Proposal:Create a capability and process to expunge a block from someone's record when all agree that it was an error.

I always wondered about this in general and now know of a case. Such a block can have an immense impact on someone who cares and has a clean record. I learned that neither exists. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 04:39, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

There is a discussion about the technical and policy implications of this proposal at Misplaced Pages talk:Blocking policy#Urgently required. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 14:49, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

• Support - If technically possible - we all make errors (even admins when blocking) and these errors should not have a negative impact on the end user. Moxy (talk) 04:45, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
• Note: The purely technical capability exists, in the form of WP:Revision deletion#Log redaction, however the current policy states that:

Log redaction (outside of the limited scope of RD#2 for the move and delete logs) is intended solely for grossly improper content, and is not permitted for ordinary matters; the community needs to be able to review users' block logs and other logs whether or not proper

Would you be willing to share the details of the case? A block record alone, if clearly mistaken, should not have "an immense impact on someone" as blocks are not brands or scarlet letters; the context should be evident, and if not, a note can be added to the log stating that the block was in error. Intelligentsium 04:51, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Note Redaction using revision deletion will not expunge the log entry, it will gray out and strike through the log entry so that non-admins cannot see who did the action, how long it was for, or what reason was given. A line will still appear in the user's log, it just won't say what happened. MBisanz 05:01, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Block log entries can also be oversighted. Of course, this would mean changing the OS policy. --Rschen7754 06:22, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Answering Intelligentsium, I'd rather keep it general. Hopefully that the proposal is just to have a general result (that the capability exist, and that there be a process for deciding to apply it) and that my question included the premise that all parties (including the blocking admin) agree is reassurance that I'm not looking for an out-of-context answer to take into a particular situation.

Answering Rschen7754 & Intelligentsium, as step 1 at Village Pump technical I asked if the ability technically exists and someone answered "no". So now I'd like to know who is right. (????)North8000 (talk) 13:27, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Removing the log entry partially (revision deletion) and completely (oversight) are both possible, but their implementation would go very much against the grain of what those tools are for. Personally, I'd rather not start down the (possibly) slippery slope of adding exceptions to those policies. Instead, when you unblock, just add a note in the unblock saying that the block was unnecessary/improper/whatever. If its expired already, do a quick block-and-unblock with a note that the original block was unnecessary/improper/whatever. – Philosopher  14:22, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Any editor genuinely disturbed enough by the presence of a block log entry agreed to have been invalid, and determined enough to make a case for a change in policy, is not likely to be satisfied by a solution that creates another "corrective" entry in their block log. Leaky Caldron 14:29, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) "What the tools are for" is doing what's right. What's right is that someone who's done nothing wrong should have an empty block log. — Hex (❝?!❞) 14:30, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

• Strongly support the modification of oversight policy to allow the eradication of block log entries created in error. It's not fair that a bad decision made by an admin should irreversibly stain a user's record, even if the blocking admin is subsequently subject to censure. I would add that it should be possible for an admin to request such eradication of a log entry they caused themselves. — Hex (❝?!❞) 14:25, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support: If it is discovered and agreed that a block was made per incurium then it seems only fair that the person should be entitled to have that wiped from their record. The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 14:40, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose. This capability is would be too easily misused. I would rather see people explain their block log as having an erroneous entry than have it wiped. Binksternet (talk) 15:17, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Support if only oversighter can perform this action. Binksternet (talk) 22:48, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

The problem is that the past block may be used to justify another block without giving the editor a chance to explain that the previous block was in error. Monty₈₄₅ 15:21, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

• The current proposal is too generic. Even if it reached a consensus, we would then need to conduct a second RFC to actually implement a specific policy for dealing with it. There are two main questions, and both can be addressed in one initial RFC. Question 1: should 1a) RevDel policy allow for the redaction of block log entries; 1b) Oversight policy allow for the redaction of block log entries; 1c) no redaction. Question 2: If there is consensus in favor of 1a or 1b, what standard should be used for redaction/what process is necessary? Monty₈₄₅ 15:20, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support - see the discussion on my talkpage before Christmas. If someone wants an example case, I accidentally blocked an innocent user who provided some information at an SPI using SPI helper script. It's also possible to do similar with the checkuser tools - you tick a box for all the accounts you want blocked, and it is possible to tick the wrong box). In case folks think it doesn't happen often, User:Courcelles has two blocks from admins with bad aim, and User:Dougweller has one, and that's just from a couple of conversations. It happens more than you think.

The proposal I would support has four elements -

1. Full suppression is carried out by an Oversighter. Revdel is not used
2. The block resulted from a factual error(admin has blocked the wrong user or did not intend to block any user) not from an error of judgement on the part of the admin (admin intended to block the user, but block is not supported by policy/consensus).
3. The admin who made the block is the one requesting suppression

The user in such a case should be unblocked immediately upon the error being discovered and advised that suppression will be requested.

I think if the community also desires a process whereby it can declare a block to be invalid and request it to be removed from the record, it needs to be thought through and set out in more detail. I also think that there should never be a circumstance in which a blocked editor can request an Oversighter to suppress their block record. Elen of the Roads (talk) 16:26, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Hi Elen....why would you exclude cases where the blocking Admin says that it was an intended block, but later decided that it was an erroneous decision?

I was thinking that the mechanism in your last post should be included eventually, but didn't want to complicate my proposal with it at this time.North8000 (talk) 16:55, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose: This seems to be a solution looking for a problem. I have never observed that a user has been unfairly judged simply because of a mistaken block, though I recognize of course that they occur. A block log is not a mark that condemns a user to ostracism for his/her wikilife, and I am sure there are cases where a block may be overturned, but later the original reasons for the block are later substantiated; in this case having the original block record would be helpful.

Moreover, I am somewhat disturbed by the sentiment expressed above basically to the effect that a block is some sort of conviction or prison sentence, and the log thereof a yellow passport that will cause a user to be spurned from every mairie in the countryside. Intelligentsium 17:26, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

• Agree with Intellegentsium's point. Also, we don't need to revisit such issues with more arguments and more "ivotes": ('it was mistaken -- no, it was not -- you're an idiot -- no you're a fool, etc.') . Moreover, a history of mistaken blocks by an adminsitrator should not be expunged. Perhaps annotations for incidental mistakes would be fine (I can't imagine a long or contentious discussion about whether to do that, but can't that already be done?)Alanscottwalker (talk) 17:35, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
• Comment/question I think that an erroneous block on ones block log does have an impact, even if it not the the extent of the over-the-top straw man descriptions of the impact (mentioned above.) For example, a "clean block log" is a widely-used term. Can an editor who has had only an admitted-eroneous block be said to simply have a "clean block log"? The answer is no. Some contortions would be needed like "technically not, but the one block was an error" which people are going to doubt, or if it is said that they do, people will look and say "well no" North8000 (talk) 17:48, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support both for blocks that were clearly errors (slips of the finger, wrong editor, wrong button, etc.) and also for blocks that a consensus of a hypothetical block-evaluating jury would consider to be bad blocks (violations of WP:INVOLVED; blocks from an admin desysopped for misuse of tools; blocks which normal, sane people would have thought were bad blocks if it had happened to them ... etc. etc.) Injustice damages people, and when it comes to block logs, injustice creates further injustices right down the line. Block #1 is a lousy block, block #2 was only done because there had already been a block allegedly for something similar, block #3 would have been kinda OK, possibly, but not really without warning and if blocks #1 and #2 had been properly recognised as wrongful; appearance at AN/I has a pile-on of drama-whores yelling "But see how many times he's been blocked already!" ... so EnthusiAdmin applies an indef on the basis of the "consensus" of the pile-on of people who haven't had the wit to analyse the previous blocks, and so on, and so son, and so on ... Pesky (talk) 17:57, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support As proposer. Comments elsewhere. North8000 (talk) 18:09, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
• Comment - the capability for suppression of blocks from the blocklog already exists; what's needed is agreement on when and how to use it. This could be used for completely mistaken blocks (oops! wrong user! type thing) at least. In addition, it's possible to annotate blocklogs where a disputed block remains - see Misplaced Pages:Blocks#Recording_in_the_block_log. Rd232 18:18, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support. It is a relatively complicated work around to add a note that the block was unnecessary, and is much simpler handled by using an undo. As to the wording, all is undefined, imprecise, and superfluous. If we decide to allow it we can work out the details. There are basically two scenarios that I see someone tries to block Foobar, and accidentally blocks Footar. That can be reversed uncontroversially. The second is by editor error, this does not get reversed. For example, if someone loses count of their 3RRs (ignoring that 2 is prohibited, just not as strongly as 3 or 4), and gets blocked. That never gets expunged, even if they go on to become a Steward. What other types of mistakes are there? Apteva (talk) 20:47, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) But if an incorrect block is applied, it is actually less work to note that the block was unnecessary in the unblock log entry than to unblock, then suppress the block log; obviously the mistakenly-blocked user will not be expected to wait out the block! This also addresses your point that there be an undo - this is already handled by the unblock function.

As I see it there are two issues here: The first is, should a mistaken log entry be removable? If you edit the wrong page or perform an accidental revert, you can reverse it, but the edit remains in the history. Same goes for all other logs (move, delete, etc., with the exceptions set out in the suppression and oversight policy), whether the action was justified or not. The same arguments can be made about practically any mistaken action that happens to create a log entry, but I find it extremely unlikely that consensus will emerge to enable the editing of all logs. Logs are logs because they by definition record everything save egregious abuse.

The second and bigger issue is the perception that having a block on record, even if mistaken, in some way ipso facto "tarnishes" a user's reputation. This is why users are willing to have this discussion about block log but not delete/move/revert. My opposition stems not so much from the proposal itself as from this second issue. I firmly believe that this issue should be addressed, but this is completely the wrong way to address it, because it validates the claim that blocks are punitive and represent a stain upon a user's reputation which must be expunged to preserve his or her "good name". Blocks are not convictions.

The example cited by That Pesky Commoner above is unfortunate; not only does it not refer to any specific example of where such a thing has occurred or whether or not such a thing is a common occurrence among accidentally blocked users, but more concerning, it also assumes incompetence on the parts of the users involved. It assumes that users (and administrators) will not be circumspect or thoughtful enough to investigate the context behind the block. I am reminded of the old saying, Let people rise to your expectations (or something wittier, I forget); if you prepare for incompetence, then most likely you will encounter it. And even if that case occurs, where a user has a history of blocks, including one accidental or invalid block, that one fewer block is unlikely to change the circumstances.

The potential for abuse and the decrease in transparency in case an admin has a history of making bad blocks are also valid issues that other users have addressed better than I could. Intelligentsium 01:13, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose. Incorrect blocks in block logs are valuable - not because of what they say about the blocked user, but because they may in some cases help expose a pattern of carelessness or ineptitude by the blocking admin. I believe the correct solution is the ability to edit or append clarifications to block log summaries when they contain false information, not to pretend it never happened. Dcoetzee 00:59, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Create a sortable "List of expunged blocks". We need to preserve the record, but it doesn't have to be atomised across individual block logs. Such a list would be much more likely to expose a pattern of admin incompetence than the current situation. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 05:25, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

• Support based on Dougweller's reasoning. By the way, I have no personal stake in the matter, given no blocks, but overall it certainly creates bad feelings for users. The process of agreeing on what is to be expunged needs to be based on WP:CON I think. History2007 (talk) 01:48, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose If people are being stupid and misinterpreting a log file, that is the people's fault, not the log's fault. If you hide the log file, the people will still be stupid and draw their unwarranted conclusions from other sources. Kilopi (talk) 03:18, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

• Per Elen. The "oopsy" block, where you didn't mean to block or accidentally blocked the wrong user, is uncontroversial. I think, if there is strong enough consensus here for Elen's formulation, we can go straight to the relevant policy pages and make the changes. As for blocks that were intended but later repudiated by the community or the blocking admin, we need to assess the extent of the problem and define precisely what kind of block can and can't be expunged, and what kind of record to keep. So, for now, I support immediately changing policy to allow suppression (oversight) of unambiguous oopsy blocks when that is requested by the blocking admin, and the creation of a sortable "List of expunged blocks." --Anthonyhcole (talk) 05:25, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose per Dcoetzee. Expunging blocks might provide some relief to the blocked user, but it would also shield admins from scrutiny (this is regards to blocks rescinded by the community; oversight of unintentional blocks per Elen seems fair). Hot Stop (Talk) 05:38, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

If bad blocks are removed from the victim's block log but added to a publicly-viewable "List of expunged blocks" (either attached to the blocking admin's account or a sortable - by admin, date and victim - list of all expunged blocks) this will improve our scrutiny of admins. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 06:07, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

An alternative would be to establish a practice where any admin that makes a block which is subsequently overturned by consensus (or deemed a bad block by consensus after it has expired) is blocked for one second with a summary linking the discussion in question. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 15:47, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Excellent suggestion that addresses the problem! Kiefer.Wolfowitz 15:34, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

I also like this one. There would be greater scrutiny before using the block button, which is good, and bad actors could be readily identified if the oopsie log becomes lengthy, which is good. Carrite (talk) 18:06, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

• Support expunging blocks: An undo could reverse several forms of unneeded block. Even a genius can make a mistake (Albert Einstein once mistakenly wrote "x' " where ex-double-prime "x' ' " was needed, or I could be mistaken), and there is no intelligence requirement for admins, so the community needs all the undo-admin help it can get. Other nitpick shades of undo can be discussed in other venues, such as line-hiding of borderline blocks, but a simple undo, or "erased block" rewrite of a block entry should be allowed as soon as possible. As a long-term editor with several improperly placed blocks, I can confirm that they are shouted, by many people, as evidence that "your next block will be indef" or the ever-snarky, "it can only end badly for you". I support the unblock, and any similar functions, to reduce the shoot-from-the-hip, knee-jerk, short-sighted actions of ]bunny admins. Also see: wp:MELT about the need to wait and re-think some decisions. -Wikid77 (talk) 15:01, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose. We all make mistakes on Misplaced Pages. Most of the time, this is on an article or a project page. In such cases, either we fix our own mistakes, or someone else does so. Except for extremely serious cases (such as a major privacy violation or massive copyright infringement), we do not mess with the history. The same should apply for admin actions. We need to be very careful to try to avoid admin mistakes. But when it happens, we should just correct it, and move on. In the case of an incorrect block, it is definitely good form for the admin to state unambiguously (e.g. on the blocked users' talk page) that it was an error. But I don't support messing with the logs. If it comes up (XYZ was blocked before), simply explain what happened, and point them to the blocking admin or someone who knows about the error. Another serious problem with this is who has to agree to the expungement. If it's just the admin, then it is a way for them to (at least partly) cover their tracks. If it's more people, then consensus becomes a problem. Superm401 - Talk 21:16, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

• Comment: WP:Perennial proposals#Prohibit removal of warnings is, I feel, relevant to this discussion. Toccata quarta (talk) 22:57, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

• Support I agree that the official block log should have mistaken blocks removed. Not blocks that are simply overturned because someone else think enough time has elapsed, or the blocked editor is valuable, only blocks where a consensus of admins would agree that the block should not have been issued. I agree with Dcoetzee that I do not want the complete history to disappear, as it could help identify problematic admins, but I believe this is easily resolved, with either a complete history available in another place, or perhaps the incorrect block would be noted on the admins record, which preserves Dcoetzee's goal. yes, I fully understand that one ought to review a block log with care, but in the heat of a contentious situation, it would be unfortunate if an admin glanced at a block log, saw six entries, and didn't read closely enough to see that it was three blocks followed by three unblocks, each noting that the block was a misunderstanding. Why not make the block log informative, rather than a mystery to be analyzed?--SPhilbrick(Talk) 15:37, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
• Very strong support. I think if a block was given in error then there should be a way (without extra permissions) to remove a block entry. Allow the user to hide the block if say, it is over 6 months old. Though hidden blocks would only be seen by sysop users and the user himself, the block would remain in effect. –BuickCenturyDriver 08:41, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose. I am afraid this will lead to more indiscriminate blocking; if the block was an error, the admin could just simply remove it from the log and nobody will ever get to know about it. Zaminamina (talk) 20:32, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

• Comment - I support the idea of an "expunged blocks log." I see danger of legitimate blocks being gamed away by those seeking power buttons if some sort of capability to expunge blocks without a trace is created. I strongly support the capability to expunge bad blocks with traces, however. Carrite (talk) 18:09, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

Define all

The Proposal states "when all agree that it was an error", who is All?

• If All is everyone on Misplaced Pages, then the proposal fails with the first Oppose vote above.
• If All is just the Admin who made the block, then the proposal needs a huge rework for clarity.
• If All is everyone involved, then you need to define how to identify All and where to track their agreement.

JeepdaySock (AKA, Jeepday) 19:24, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

This is where I, personally, like the idea of a kinda jury of longish-term editors with a fair number of contributions (including at least 30% in article space) to review blocks. A consensus of a jury of "reasonable editors" (avoiding the possible sexism of "reasonable men" ;P) with perhaps 20 members should be sufficient. We do have to face the probability that the blocking admin themselves may never agree with that. Admins are human, and therefore like the rest of us not perfect. Pesky (talk) 20:29, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

I feel like the jury idea is one doomed to fail, amidst various cries of cronyism, cabalism, policy creep, and needless additional bureaucracy... not to mention the people that don't get picked to be on the jury and subsequently get pissy about it. EVula // talk // ☯ // 20:42, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

A jury is exactly what we don't want - it opens Pandora's box of other problems, as stated by EVula above, in addition to reinforcing the "court" mentality that pervades this thread. Sinking twenty users' time into this would be a terrible idea (time which could be used to edit articles). I thought the point of this was to be non-contentious; if you invite twenty users to have a discussion then naturally the discussion will drag on ad infinitum.

And just consider the negative impact that even one contentious expurgation would have; I daresay it would far outweigh the questionable positive impact that every noncontentious expurgation could have. Intelligentsium 01:30, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

In my proposal I used "all" as a simplification. It really translates to "If the admin who made the block agrees". And I deliberately avoided discussing (kicked the can down the road on) the possibility of a process to do this when the initial blocking admin does not agree. North8000 (talk) 22:08, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Why not just use WP:CON anyway. History2007 (talk) 01:52, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Yep. Community consensus is sufficient, and I don't agree with the blocking admin being able to veto expunging. How does that make sense? Consensus rules. For Elen's minimalist proposal, in the case of truly uncontroversial oopsies, it makes sense, but for cases where the community agrees the blocking admin exercised poor judgment, we shouldn't have to wait on that admin's approval for expunging. Too many cowboy admins here never admit they were wrong. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 05:37, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

More full views over at Misplaced Pages talk:Blocking policy#Summary, but the cabalism / picking thingie could be addressed in some way like this:

(copied across) to avoid the cabalism thingie, how about having "block-log-cleaning-juries" drawn from a pool of suitable editors? Editors could opt-in or opt-out of the pool, and a panel of 20 (or whatever number) could be drawn from a list of editors who have chosen to be available to look at whichever particular block log is under discussion. It could work something a bit like opting-in for RfC's, to get a long-list for each case, and picking the working party from the long-list could be randomised.

Sometimes the solutions to perceived (and / or actual) challenges aren't hard to think up. I think, on the whole, it's better to be solution-focussed than problem-focussed.

I think that this situation is one which a panel of fair-right-minded editors would be likely to agree is the kind of block (Rodhullandemu's block of Malleus) which should be removed from the block log.

We need to learn lessons from Real Life, and one of those most needed (particularly in today's increasingly litigious societies) is the very human tendency for some people to indulge themselves with barratry. We do need to be very aware of the injustices caused by pile-on responses from those who may have an axe to grind, when we're looking at consensus, for example. Pesky (talk) 11:33, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose - a block made in error is an important part of the blocking admin's record some of the time; we need to allow each user to make decisions about how much of a stain it is on the admin's record - for example, if we ever have a community desysop process, if the admin runs for ArbCom, etc. We should definitely make sure that the blocked user's log make it clear that the block was in error - but not hide it. Additionally, some times even a wrong block is important to show that the user should be aware of some thing - for example, there was a case where a new user did a fourth revert of a 3RR violation while logged out. While I (and several other users who commented there) had no doubt that the user logged out by accident, and the indef block for sockpuppetry was wrong, the user knows that if (s)he does this again, an indef block may be the result. And should it happen, admins need to be able to see the previous block to make the decision. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 20:48, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

• This is where having a separate record for bad blocks would solve that problem. The full record of the block is still there for any purpose for which it is needed, but it doesn't get used by the inadequate in a "But he's been blocked X-number of times already! He must be really bad ... he should have learned his lesson by now!" argument. Again, being solution-focussed rather than problem-focussed is necessary, and fairly simple. Pesky (talk) 10:56, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

Where would you put the record of people blocking lay preachers? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 101.118.46.205 (talk) 14:04, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

I would support some sort of "badf block" marker - provided that it doesn't prevent anyone from seeing the block details (blocking admin, blocked account, and block reason). Unfortunately, that's currently not possible. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 14:13, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

I can't see any major technical issues with having something like that made possible. (and the comment about lay preachers ...(Theo-retically possible es.) ..d'uh? What was that about, and to whom was it addressed? And why is it relevant?) Pesky (talk) 19:23, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

My premature summary, overreaching interpretation and suggested next step / revised proposal

One person pointed out an ambiguity in my proposal (the undefined "all") which I then clarified, but that's now messy. I did a very fast count and it looks like a lot more support than oppose....not that means anything beyond maybe thinking about a refined proposal. More importantly, the reason cited by almost all of the "opposes" was that a record should be kept and visible, even of bad blocks. Finally, one or more editors pointed out the narrowness of my proposal as it only includes cases where the blocking admin admitted that it was an error. This "narrowness" was deliberate (to keep this from dying from complexity) but we should note that leaving it out does not weigh in against it. So I have a revised proposal which the above would indicate probable 90% or 100% support for. Lets let it sit a few hours without any "supports/opposes" in case anybody sees any error or ambiguities which we can fix. OK, it's been about about 9 hours. North8000 (talk) 00:13, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Proposal When the the administrator who made a block subsequently determines that the block was in error, let's create the ability and expectation that that administrator can and will mark the block as being in error in a way that makes it very clear. This can be via a mark on that block itself, or the ability to create an additional log entry (without creating an additional block) This ability to mark the log shall only be used by an admin to mark their own block as being in error. The "expectation" will be created by some new wording in Misplaced Pages:Blocking policy. The idea of a system for the community to do this without agreement by the blocker is acknowledged and can be discussed later but (for simplicity) is not included in this proposal.

Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 15:02, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

• Support As proposer. North8000 (talk) 00:13, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

• Support - When acting as admin on other projects (not Misplaced Pages) I've even made mistakes of blocking the wrong person simply by pressing the wrong user information and imposing the block. I've always undone such blocks immediately and usually even apologized on the user's talk page with usually a note of praise of what that user has accomplished as well to try and smooth things over. Still, having the ability to mark in the logs itself that the block was in error would be useful. I've also stepped into wheel warring disputes as well where it was later determined by the community at large that the blocks were done in error and bad faith. While the ability to note a small text explanation is already in the MediaWiki software, what seems to be missing is the ability to retroactively mark a specific block as being done in error. Perhaps simply allowing an admin to make an "administrative" entry on behalf of that user in the block log that could be a standard summary field of any kind for any reason but would otherwise not have any impact upon the user? I could see this being used in other log entries too as a more generic tool. --Robert Horning (talk) 06:37, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support: this is obviously a good starting point for further work on less unambiguous areas. Pesky (talk) 12:14, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

• Support I like the idea of creating an "whoops!" entry in the block log without having to re-block. An elegant solution. – Philosopher  13:01, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

• Support I can support the blocking admin marking a block as erroneous in the log. This is purely a case of adding information; I do not support removing information from any block logs. However, a block "being in error" should mean, "At the time of the block, there was not justification for blocking." It does not mean "Since block expiration, or since unblocking, the editor has edited productively." It is the goal that editors will return to productivity after the block is done. That does not mean it was mistaken. In other words, 'user forgiven' is not the same as 'mistaken block'. Superm401 - Talk 18:58, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

• Support Per Superm401. Intelligentsium 02:38, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support as reasonable in the case of a bad block. -- Ohconfucius  03:41, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support new version. Having worked in a medical-related field, I've grown to appreciate the need for clear documentation, especially when errors are made. Even if you document it elsewhere, the record itself should be amended to indicate the error and what steps were taken to correct it. That way, there is no impression you are "hiding" the error. — The Hand That Feeds You: 20:43, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support I'd like to go a little broader, but have nothing against starting with clean situations, and if it works well, consider expanding later, as noted by the proposal. I'd also rpefer that the block log look clean as opposed to being dirtied with an explanation, but that too can come later.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 22:59, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support. I'd go further and support bad blocks being expunged from the log as proposed above, but this is a good first step in that direction, with no obvious problems. Robofish (talk) 23:36, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support, good corrections, feasible solution, reasonable option. JeepdaySock (AKA, Jeepday) 11:42, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support - Fair is fair. Blocks can have lasting consequences, needless to say, and this would fix simple human error. Jusdafax 23:46, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
• Support proposal from Elen of the Roads, otherwise oppose. Elen came up with a well-thought-out set of criteria which will avoid abuse and politics. --Guy Macon (talk) 02:45, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
• Very strong support. –BuickCenturyDriver 08:41, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
• Support I think such blocks should look something like revdeleted edits look for normal editor, with strikethrough and different color.--Staberinde (talk) 12:06, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
• Support - This is good, leaves a trace but makes clear that a bad block was a bad block. Carrite (talk) 18:13, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

Theoretical situation: Admin A makes a questionable block of User. Discussion, and then uproar on ANI, and eventually creation of a case at Arbcom where the Arbcom makes a finding that Admin A's block was wrong. Admin A refuses to make note in Users block record as described above indicating that the block was wrong . Is Admin then in violation of Arbcom's findings? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 23:13, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

Well no one can be in "violation" of findings. They could only be in violation of sanctions. And that's a different issue, likely handled by ArbCom itself. It's not a requirement for the blocking admin to be the one who amends the block log, so it's not relevant to this. — The Hand That Feeds You: 15:33, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

This proposal only covers cases where the blocking admin has determined that their block was in error. So, your question is not actually germane to this proposal. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 20:30, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

Once again i believe there are procedural problems here:

• If a radical change to the way supposedly erroneous blocks are handled is seriously being proposed there needs to be a much more public process, as in a formal RFC, a listing at WP:CENT, possibly watchlist notices, etc

• Are we sure this is even possible with the current software? Big changes in the interface take months or even years to implement and can be quite expensive for the WMF to implement, has anyone even asked about this?
• Will this "notational ability" be given to all admins, enabling any admin to add notes to any users block log at any time?

Until these questions are answered I don't see much point in proceeding with actually discussing the proposal. Beeblebrox (talk) 23:57, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

Answering you points and question in order:

• I don't believe that adding the ability and expectation that when an admin determines that their own block is in error that there is an ability and expectation to make a log entry to that effect is a "radical change". But review of this in a wider venue would be great, given that such a venue would be more likely to lead to implementation once decided. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 20:42, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
• If adding the ability to add a notation were a huge process (which IMHO is doubtful), then something needs fixing with the system. On the second note, it would kill every new idea and proposal to have to assume the worst and confirm the opposite prior to discussing. North8000 (talk) 20:55, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
• Regarding your "ability" question, Per the proposal, "This ability to mark the log shall only be used by an admin to mark their own block as being in error.". If you are asking whether admins would have the technical ability to do things that are in violation of policy (e.g. use that ability ability to add a notation for a non-allowed purpose), the technical ability to do things in violation of policy already exists for all admins and all editors including IP's, but immensely so for admins. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 20:35, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

Assumption of guilt

We cant fairly make the assumption the previous block was valid. We can make a guideline that specifically forbids using previous blocks as a motivation to block a person. One time I was blocked for a few hours. Reason given: "dubious IP edits". It took a bit to long to get unblocked for my taste but no real harm was done. Pointing at such entry as if it demonstrates previous problematic behavior should be frowned upon. It smells WAAAAAAAAAAY to much like "making it up as we go along". We should simply close the old case and open a new one. The new one shouldn't be mistaken for reopening the closed one.

I've even seen a group of users report the same guy over and over again, each time assuming the previous reports had already demonstrated his wrongdoings. The uninvolved editor reviewing a report should never be expected to go figure out if the previous report contains evidence.

How many times you've seen the inside of a court room wont tell us if you are guilty or not. 84.106.26.81 (talk) 03:40, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Agree with you 100%, and your thought should be promulgated, but you'll have to rewire how the human brain works to fully make that happen. In the meantime my proposal is a partial step towards that end. North8000 (talk) 13:15, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Close?

The proposal went through 2 variations. The first was a bit vaguely written and call for the ability to completely expunge the record. There were approx. 11 in favor and 6 against. Very importantly, the reason cited by all of the "opposes" essentially said that the record of the block should be retained. I then prepared a revised proposal which was more specific, and called for the ability and expectation to mark (rather than delete) the log. Of the 10 respondents, support was unanimous. Moreover, the change clearly resolved the issue cited by all of the "opposes" in the first round. North8000 (talk) 01:27, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

What is needed now is to simply present this to the developers, most likely as a Bugzilla request with a link to this discussion noting this is now a formal feature request from the Misplaced Pages community and that consensus has been formed on the concept with unanimous support. While anybody can make that request, I would suggest that the original proposer make the formal request if possible with support on Bugzilla by as many people who want to follow/support on the Bugzilla request as well. "Advertising" this request on some of the various mailing lists would be useful as well for further discussion or support of this concept. I agree, this proposal should be marked as closed, although further action is needed. --Robert Horning (talk) 21:26, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Cool. I'll have to learn how to use that Bugzilla channel; I know nothing about it. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 23:38, 28 January 2013 (UTC) North8000 North8000 (talk) 16:04, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

Next steps

I learned and put in a request at Bugzilla. North8000 (talk) 18:51, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

They asked how it was different than the ability to create an additional block and immediately undo it. I provided various answers to this, most notably that this possibility was already acknowledged early in the RFC, and responses were made with that knowledge / take that into account. North8000 (talk) 13:59, 10 February 2013 (UTC) North8000 (talk) 12:47, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Link to bug please? Thanks. — Hex (❝?!❞) 12:20, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for asking. I just learned how to file a wp bugzilla and that's basically all that I know. I'll need to and will figure out how to look at it and get a link. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 12:41, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

I think that this is a link. North8000 (talk) 14:20, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

• Great, thank you. — Hex (❝?!❞) 16:09, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

Note that if you consider this "bug" to be important, you can "vote" for the bug if only to demonstrate your opinion that it is something that should be seriously considered by the MediaWiki developers. --Robert Horning (talk) 02:52, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

Seems weird, after it gets decided here it needs to go thought another more mysterious decision-making process. Where it needs votes but is not an active discussion in Misplaced Pages. North8000 (talk) 03:10, 20 February 2013 (UTC)North8000 (talk) 22:34, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

While English Misplaced Pages is obviously the largest project for the Wikimedia Foundation, the guys you are talking to on Bugzilla are the developers for the MediaWiki software.... a whole other bunch of guys that have their own opinions and prejudices. They generally do listen closely to the Misplaced Pages community very closely (especially en.wikipedia), but they are not bound to straw poll decisions... especially when it requires them to write some code. In theory somebody who wants to get busy and write some some extension to the MediaWiki software could submit a patch right now and push that through and simply make the request that the server gurus at the WMF simply put this feature into en.wikipedia when they get a chance. It is how things operate around here. They do get the final say about changes to the software running this server though. --Robert Horning (talk) 00:30, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for that explanation. North8000 (talk) 02:05, 1 March 2013 (UTC) North8000 (talk) North8000 (talk) 19:38, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

• See also a related discussion at Misplaced Pages talk:Arbitration Committee#Block log revdel suggestion. (By the way, I would have strongly supported the proposal here if I had gotten to it.) --Tryptofish (talk) 22:03, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

List of... writers/directors/etc.

We gotta do something about the list of these things, like List of Cheers writers and List of Frasier directors. They have no redeeming qualities, and they consist of mere information, violating WP:NOT. Any suggestions? --George Ho (talk) 03:13, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

I would prefer if[REDACTED] didn't have any articles about movies and series. This is not the case however. I don't see aditional damage from a bit of elaboration. You could ignore it and go do something constructive? 84.106.26.81 (talk) 11:02, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

If there is a list of Cheers or Frasier episodes, the two lists you mention might be merged into those instead. Bjelleklang - talk 11:22, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

I have always thought that an Encyclopedia should not have any stand-alone list articles... the format is simply wrong for an encyclopedia. Listings of things are what Almanacs are for.

However, it is also clear that many of our editors absolutely love to make lists of things. So here is my solution... The foundation should create a sister project (along the lines of Wiktionary and WikiNews) that would give those who want to work on lists a more appropriate venue in which to do so... a WikiAlmanac. Blueboar (talk) 14:56, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Read the Five Pillars again. There's more to Misplaced Pages than just an encyclopedia. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 15:14, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Yes, there is currently more to Misplaced Pages than "just" a traditional encyclopedia... I am saying that I think this should be changed... by creating a sister project. Blueboar (talk) 15:35, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Well you're wrong, because much of the time the lists are quite encyclopedic. Trying to get rid of things such as List of compositions by Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky or even List of LucasArts games is extremely laughable. This is core info, they just have their own articles because of size. In a 'traditional' encyclopedia this info would be there, just it wouldn't look like it was separate given the medium. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 16:57, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Hear hear, Melodia. There's a reason we have featured lists; these subjects, which may not lend themselves to full prose articles, can be entirely encyclopedic. List of films of the Dutch East Indies, for example, contains several entries for which an article is unlikely to ever be created, as much of the documentation has been lost. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:14, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

What is so laughable about suggesting that a list of Tchaikovsky compositions would be more appropriately presented in an almanac? I was not proposing that we "get rid of" anything... I am just suggesting that we house it in the appropriate venue. If the foundation created a WikiAlmanac project, I would expect the two projects would be intimately connected. Misplaced Pages articles would contain links any relevant almanac list pages, and vise-versa. Featured lists could remain featured lists. No information is lost. It's really just a case of where the information would be hosted. I simply think an almanac is a more appropriate venue for information that is best presented in listified format. No point in telling me: "your wrong" ... because nothing you can say will convince me that I am wrong. Lists are what almanacs are for.Blueboar (talk) 13:40, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

And if you want to enforce your opinion that Misplaced Pages should not be an almanac or gazetteer, open an RFC and prepare yourself for heavy opposition. Until policy is changed, you'll find yourself without a leg to stand on. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 13:47, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Whoa... what's with all this talk about "enforcement"? (I couldn't "enforce" creating a sister project even if I wanted to). I am merely suggesting that a WikiAlmanac sister project would be a more appropriate venue for lists. Obviously, an endeavor like that would be a major change in how we currently do things here in Misplaced Pages... and just as obviously any change of this magnitude would require a lot of discussion and consensus building before it could be implemented. It would also require getting the Wikimedia Foundation on board (and since setting up a new sister project is not that easy, they may not agree that doing so is worth it).

Now... IF such a sister project were to be created, then we might look at changing our policies and guidelines to reflect the existence of the new sister project (and then it might be appropriate to talk about "enforcement")... but right now, it's all at the initial idea stage. Blueboar (talk) 15:20, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

A proper list on these subjects is possible, by providing context specific to these directors. An episode list is for the episodes, not the directors, and shouldn't be counted as one. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 15:05, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

It should be a basic criteria for list articles that the entities listed should be notable as demonstrated through non-trivial coverage in reliable source.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 15:10, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

We have WP:NLIST, which also includes provisions for splits if the main article gets too long. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 15:12, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

There's also WP:SAL. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 15:15, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Take them to WP:AfD, if you get consensus to delete, then you can come back here with a suggested policy to prohibit their creation in the future. JeepdaySock (AKA, Jeepday) 18:22, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

I'd love to, but I need a logical rationale to have them deleted. I could nominate just one, right? Or more? --George Ho (talk) 01:58, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Actually that was sarcasm. But yes if you really feel they are inappropriate for Misplaced Pages, take the one that you feel most strongly about to AfD. Logic often has little or no bearing there, so just make your best argument. If there is a policy that supports your position mention it. If there are policies that are counter to position have a rebuttal planned to use if needed. Try not to get overly involved in the discussion. Make your argument and let it stand, not everyone is going to agree with you, that is fine. If someone votes keep with a rationale that you don't have a strong rebuttal for leave it alone. Most importantly keep this in mind, don't let yourself get dragged in to defending your suggestion or your ideas. put it out there, give brief, strong and infrequent rebuttals. JeepdaySock (AKA, Jeepday) 11:35, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Right now, I guess proposing a merger is the best way to go. --George Ho (talk) 11:44, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Boy, look at List of EastEnders crew members. It has directors, writers, and staff. --George Ho (talk) 06:11, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

These lists are pointless -- especially that last one -- but again, that doesn't make ALL lists wrong for WP. For the writers lists, the info should be on the episode list, and if someone really wanted to be able to see who wrote what at a glace they could turn said list into a sortable table. For the crew members....that's just ridiculous, as WP isn't IMSLP. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 14:29, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Take them all (writers+directors) to AFD, but be aware of WP:TRAINWRECK. The most frequent directors/writers can be summarized in prose in the TV show's main article à la Stargate SG-1#Crew, so there is simply no need for a data dump -- IMDB deals with data dumps much better. The episode lists, which see-also-link to IMDB, do already list episode-specific information on writers+directors. – sgeureka 11:54, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

List of Frasier writers is proposed to be merged into List of Frasier episodes. --George Ho (talk) 18:59, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

Lists are better than categories, because they allow to add more information, and help clean the category list of articles. --NaBUru38 (talk) 14:57, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

Templates should not appear in mainspace category

We need an explicit policy stating that templates don't belong in mainspace categories. When readers are searching through a category, they are looking for articles not templates. When templates are categorized, they should only be categorized into categories within Category:Navigational boxes if they're a navbox, or other categories that are template specific if they're not (or both of course). Ryan Vesey 15:16, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

I disagree. I find it profoundly inconvenient and user-unfriendly to unnecessarily hide content-related templates away in specialized categories. FWIW, this seems to be something of a perennial topic on categorization-related pages and to my knowledge there has never been strong consensus for barring categorization of templates in mainspace categories. older ≠ wiser 15:51, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

These templates are not useful to readers and are meant to be used in articles not as articles. We provide list articles for non-template navigation and those articles can and do exist in mainspace categories. Ryan Vesey 16:19, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

How are they not useful to readers? Why presume that a reader might not want to find the template used in the articles by looking in the category? older ≠ wiser 18:42, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

Readers would have no idea what a template is (particularly since the word's meaning in wikijargon is rather different from its real meaning). If we want to show them a navbox or something, it might be better to display it on the category page itself. Victor Yus (talk) 11:04, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

I'm a reader and an editor. On occasion, while looking at a category, I may notice an article that should be included in a navbox. It often takes an inordinate amount of hunting to try to find the template whereas if it were in the category it would be trivial. Similarly, I may come across a new article and know how to categorize the article, and if I know there is a navbox that would apply but not recall the name of the navbox. What exactly is the harm in providing access to these in the same category(s) as the articles they contain? older ≠ wiser 11:46, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Most navboxes seem to include a link to edit them, so if they appeared on the category page as navboxes, you'd be able to go stright to them. The "harm" in having them listed, I suppose, is that readers vaguely looking for something don't want to be distracted by technical junk they won't understand or need. Victor Yus (talk) 12:23, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

The question that underlies this discussion is a basic one: What is the purpose of categorization? Answer that question and the decision on whether to limit categories purely to articles, or to include templates and navboxes becomes clearer. Given some of our recent discussions, I get the impression that there is some disagreement on what the purpose of categorization actually is. Blueboar (talk) 14:07, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Is there any data on usage of categories by ordinary readers vs. editors? We might tailor them towards the groups that turn out to actually use them. Victor Yus (talk) 14:50, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

See Misplaced Pages:Categorization#Misplaced Pages administrative categories. Basically, there are categories for articles and categories for everything else, and both groups should be kept apart as much as possible. Note that we do not do this for other non-article pages (for example, we do not categorize Misplaced Pages:Verifiability in Category:Research methods). The way to organize all the article and non-article content (templates, portals, wikiprojects, task forces, disambiguations, etc.) that is related to a given core topic is with wikiproject categories, with their "quality" parameter (see Misplaced Pages:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Assessment) Cambalachero (talk) 15:12, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Your argument breaks down because projectspace is not meant to be visible to people who aren't trying to find it. Templates, like categories and articles, are content that is meant to be displayed to non-editor readers. {{Hamilton County, Ohio}} is related to Hamilton County, Ohio, for example. Moreover, the original statement breaks down because it fails to distinguish between readers who are editors and readers who aren't; I'm very often a reader as well and look for templates in categories. Finally, nobody's going to be even one bit harmed by seeing a template appear in a category; if they wonder enough to go to it while looking for an article, they'll quickly see that it wasn't what they wanted and be able to go back. Nyttend (talk) 16:40, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Depending on the template, having it in the category could be incredibly useful. If I'm trying to find out information on say Category:World War II tanks of the United States, and it contained Template:WWIIAmericanAFVs, it could be more helpful then any other single item contained in the category. Monty₈₄₅ 19:33, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Do not confuse templates with lists. Lists are allowed in categories meant for articles. But unlike lists, a template is just a tool, used to build the product that the reader will read, but not a worthy standalone product for the reader (nobody would create a template that's not going to be used). Note that only a few templates have a "topic", most templates (for example, {{Main}}) do not have any. To organize and locate templates we have the secondary categorization, that runs independent from the one of articles; and failing that, you may locate such templates at the articles that would use them. They may be used and not properly categorized, but I doubt that a good and useful template is lost in the limbo, unused and uncategorized. Cambalachero (talk) 02:29, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

Yes, this section should specify that it is about various Navbox templates rather than maintenance and admin templates. I don't find it a very helpful distinction to call these a tool and hide them away in relatively difficult to find categories. I'm speaking from experience. But, you know, whatever, go ahead and make Misplaced Pages even more difficult for ordinary people to edit or find their way around the components. older ≠ wiser 12:27, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

That goal has already been achieved by calling them "templates" (and often giving them equally opaque names after the colon as well). For ordinary readers, the way to make these things accessible and available from the category page is simply to display them on that page. Or list them directly on the page, with an explanation of WTF they are. My sense of logical order would make me oppose their inclusion as members of the category, were it not for the fact that categories are such a logical mess anyway that it's hard to care much either way. Victor Yus (talk) 14:09, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

Can someone give an example of this template-in-the-mainspace? I can't recall having ever seen one. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:48, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

I chanced on this one: Template:Subdivisions of Finland is in the category Category:Subdivisions of Finland. Victor Yus (talk) 17:09, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

A general manual of practice for Misplaced Pages guidelines

The Manual of Style provides editors with concise, uniform, easy to navigate guidance on punctuation, use of language, layout, formatting, and the like. However, there is no similar well organized, comprehensive guide for general contribution. That is scattered among several loosely organized pages (WP:NPOV, WP:OR, WP:V, WP:IRS, WP:N, WP:BRD, WP:CIVIL, WP:AFG, WP:NOT, etcetera).

I think they should be wrapped into a single manual. WP:FIVE, WP:PG, {{Guideline list}}, and {{Content policy list}} are good attempts at basic organization of Misplaced Pages's many guidelines, but several overlapping categories that can lead readers to alternate listings is not exactly the best navigation aid. I feel a single manual of practice would ease new users' introduction to what is acceptable on Misplaced Pages and aid existing users' in finding policies they did not already know.

Comments, suggestions, opinions?
—Sowlos 11:19, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Have you seen Misplaced Pages:Help index#Community standards and advice, a descriptive directory of community norms and advice for editors?Moxy (talk) 19:36, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

My two cents: It would be nice to see some of it condensed, like a summary-style version of the guidelines. By merging some of the guidelines, overlap could be addressed. For example, WP:CIVIL, Don't bite the newbies and Don't disrupt Misplaced Pages to make a point, all really overlap. Maybe something like an editors' best practises guide would be helpful. Inflicting WP:INITIALISMALPHABETSOUP on newbies to correct misguided behaviour is not going to work for everyone, at least I don't find it clear at times. Maybe structure it like a manual of style, keeping it concise, and linking entries to the main guideline article for further reading? Although I'm not sure how that would be more helpful to existing editors. Maybe the original poster can give a bit more detail about what they think is needed? I think it's a suggestion with potential, anyway.OttawaAC (talk) 02:02, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

I think it's a good idea. Richard asr (talk) 12:25, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

OttawaAC, yes, condensing the guidelines where possible is one of the things I am hoping for, but doing so requires a goal, a form we want the final product to take. Asynchronously attacking the issue close-up, on a case by case basis is where the overlap comes from. This is why I propose working the guidelines into a manual style structure like the MoS. All the very valuable information of the guidelines should be presented in the most concise and accessible manner possible.

I'm not sure how that would be more helpful to existing editors

Sorry, allow me to clarify:

1. Not all editors are of equal experience. Editors who've been here for years may still need to consult the guides.
2. When things are organized in a hectic manner, it may be difficult for even the experienced to find what they need. Editors often have to cite and/or quote guidelines and policy to others.
3. If new editors have difficulty navigating the guidelines, it becomes a burden on experienced editors. The most knowledgeable editors on Misplaced Pages may have little need to read guidelines and essays anymore, but watching over and correcting other editors who may be less enlightened still consumes time and energy.

—Sowlos 12:59, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

Just thinking of some of the challenges: One problem with condensing the guidelines would be excluding all the exhaustive examples the guidelines provide, trying to cover all the exceptions and exclusions to the guidelines. That accounts for a lot of the content of certain guidelines, like Notability, or No original research. So, what I would suggest would be a summary of the guidelines that excludes all the examples, but linking readers to the main guideline articles to read details. That would differ from a true Manual of Style where examples are typical—an MOS can include them since they usually only include a handful of words for each example.OttawaAC (talk) 21:43, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

Good point. How about collapsible containers for more redundant examples in pages with 'exhaustive' listings?

Also::

• While lists of examples may consume space not easily reduced, I am not convinced that the rest of their surrounding content can not be worded more concisely.
• There are also cases of guides covering topics of multiple policies. WP:OR#Related policies and WP:NPOV#Other resources are good examples of that.
• Some pages are overly verbose with content that could be split into sub-pages. For example, WP:NPOV#Common objections and clarifications and WP:NPOV#History of NPOV provide valuable information, but they are not essential to instructing people on current Misplaced Pages policies. They are more about Misplaced Pages politics.
• I am not too concerned about reducing the guideline word-count. Some pages in the MoS are anything but short. The MoS's strength is less in its brevity than in its clear organization.

—Sowlos 09:13, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

After writting the above, I realized WP:N is already broken into several pages, tied together with {{Notability guide}}. This is a good example of the ability to split up a large subject as long as it is tied together by a proper navigation aid.
—Sowlos 09:19, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

I could take a whack at it in my sandbox. It's something that will take a while to condense. (I'm normally an inclusionist!) I'll see about using navigation bars like the one used for Notability, as you indicated. The "guideline to guidelines" would just follow the same outline as the main guidelines do at the moment, just chopping out extensive examples and trying to summarize things in a couple of paragraphs. I think this'll be easier said than done, but I'll give it a try. OttawaAC (talk) 20:51, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Before I launch into this little project... the outline I'll start with is here: Misplaced Pages:List of guidelines. As it points out, there are some 200 plus guidelines. With luck, I'll manage to identify them all in the first draft. OttawaAC (talk) 21:07, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

2nd order disambiguation by birth date - RFC

Please comment at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Disambiguation#2nd order disambiguation by birth date - RFC.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 16:18, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

This discussion has been closed and replaced by Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions_(people)#RFC-birth_date_format_conformity_when_used_to_disambiguate.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 07:40, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

Wikidata Phase II coming

I guess many of you noticed that Wikidata Phase I came here a month ago, with interwikis relocated to Wikidata. (If someone missed that, here are the details). Now, Phase II will be about infoboxes, ready to be implemented sometime in April. Many trivial or less trivial relationships between articles have been coded at Wikidata (and this activity continues), with the idea that eventually the info from infoboxes can be relocated over there. This has an obvious advantage that the info in this case will be centralized: For instance, if Lyon gets a new major, and a French Wikipedian changes the info on Wikidata, the info becomes automatically available on our project. There are also disadvantages. First, the infoboxes would need to be coded for this. Second, the data structure on Wikidata is determined by consensus on Wikidata and does not necessarily correspond to the infobox structure we use here, thus, it has to be optimize by the collaboration between the two communities: English Misplaced Pages and Wikidata. Unlike Phase I, this Phase II will not be implemented here unless we have consensus to implement it, and decide how it should be done.

Normally, I expect that an RFC is running, with roughly the following options:

• We opt out and do not change anything;
• We do nothing and wait until other projects get experience, then decide;
• We opt in and start discussing what, how and in what sequence should be done, and what is the general mechanism for new infoboxes in the future.

Before starting such an RFC I believe it would be useful to hear opinions here. I will now advertize this thread on Wikidata as well. --Ymblanter (talk) 08:30, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

Personally I think this "all or nothing" approach isn't a good idea; if subject areas want to recode their infoboxes, but others don't, I see no reason why Wikidata should be prohibited from the ones that want it. --Rschen7754 08:48, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

It is not "all of nothing", but I think it would be good to understand who is "responsible" for the infoboxes. Since every infobox is used in many articles, we need consensus for everyone of them, but how do we determine this consensus? Is this a Wikiproject business, or do we open a central discussion for each of them, or do we use the talk pages of the infoboxes? And what if we want to deprecate an infobox, or to install a new one?--Ymblanter (talk) 08:59, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

Again, I think that a one-size-fits-all isn't the best approach here; sometimes the template talk page is more watched, sometimes it's the WikiProject. I don't see why this is such a big deal, it's not like someone will march through and reprogram all the infoboxes overnight. --Rschen7754 09:03, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

I don't see why this needs any central discussion. If someone wants to use a parameter in a specific infobox then it will be decided on the template's talkpage as usual. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 09:05, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

What is needed is a lot more information about how this is going to work. For instance, does each attribute get fetched separately from WikiData through some reference like :d:entity_qxxxx-property_pyyyy-language_en ? (Which would seem to potentially put an enormous computational load on WD). Or would whole templates get served by WikiData ? (In which case, where is the design of these negotiated, and how easily can they be adapted to fit existing local styles and edge cases?)

I wonder if it wouldn't make sense to roll out something more specific, like {{coord}} and {{authority control}}, first. Jheald (talk) 10:39, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

Exactly. Where's a description of how this would work? Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 10:42, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

If a page has sitelinks from Wikidata then some parameter in a template can default to using a property from the item at Wikidata. The important thing here is the sitelinks that triggers this magic. This would look something like (this would be inside the template page)

…
<tr><th>City:</th><td>{{{city|{{#property:city}}}}}</td><tr>
…

A set local value will then override any value from Wikidata. There are several options that can be set for the property parser function to extract specific parts or format it in some way. The parser function is what we call "the simple inclusion syntax" and can be used in ordinary templates. Later there will also be bindings for the Lua scripting language and with that more fancy stuff is possible. Jeblad (talk) 12:10, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

I think the option to allow users to toggle between the local data and that stored at Wikidata. For example the following wikitext (replacing n with a number) could be added to {{Infobox person}}.

|labeln = Sex:

|datan = <span class="wb-local_data">{{{gender|{{{sex}}}}}}</span><span class="wb-Wikidata_value">

Failed to render property sex: sex property not found.

</span>

By default only the local data would be displayed. This would require edits to MediaWiki:common.css and MediaWiki:common.js to implement this. – Allen4names (IPv6 contributions) 07:43, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

Clarification from the development team

Hey :)

I feel this needs a lot of clarification. So let me start this:

• The plan is to enable the second phase on all Wikipedias
• Existing infoboxes will continue to work
• You will decide if and when to recode individual infobox templates
• You will not have to agree with the other Wikipedias what properties you use for your infoboxes. So if oyu decide not to show the currency in a infobox for a country but another Misplaced Pages wants it that is no problem
• Infobox templates will continue to stay on the Wikipedias - only the data in them can come from Wikidata
• The syntax that will be available for getting values is at meta:Wikidata/Notes/Inclusion syntax

Please let me know if you have more questions. --Lydia Pintscher (WMDE) (talk) 11:55, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

Hi Lydia, could you confirm that if we want to enter the information manually in an infobox here rather than pull it from Wikidata this will still be possible? I and others have concerns that errors entered into the infoboxes in other Wikipedias (many of which do not use adequate sourcing), not to mention possible vandalism of the Wikidata itself, will be replicated automatically on English Misplaced Pages, and the only way to change that would be to try and edit Wikidata itself—yet another complication for editors to deal with—and a particularly worrying problem when applied to biographies. The amount of vandalism and ill-informed drive-by edits to infoboxes in individual articles here is not inconsiderable. Voceditenore (talk) 12:12, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

Infoboxes can certainly be set up to allow manual entries as well as defaulting to Wikidata values - see Jeblad's example above. On the other hand, they could be written to forbid manual entries. But the infobox template code will remain here on Misplaced Pages, so Misplaced Pages editors can decide how they should be set up. --Avenue (talk) 12:57, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

Yes. What Avenue said. --Lydia Pintscher (WMDE) (talk) 13:02, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

Building on the above, Wikidata essentially works like transcluding templates - you'll include a field in templates saying something like "|population={WIKIDATA}" rather than "|population=3,498,872". Choosing to switch to Wikidata is a per-template or per-page decision. It won't be like the interlanguage links, which are displayed "on top" of existing content - we won't have Wikidata-generated infoboxes being applied to articles regardless of what's on the page. Andrew Gray (talk) 13:11, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

You mention 'You will not have to agree with the other Wikipedias what properties you use for your infoboxes. So if you decide not to show the currency in a infobox for a country but another Misplaced Pages wants it that is no problem.' But let us suppose that an entry in a Wikidata infobox/template is filled in by another editor somewhere in the universe with information with which one might disagree; let us assume that the recommendations in Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Composers and elsewhere against the use of infoboxes in certain WP articles are ongoing - then imagine, for example, that someone includes in the WikiData information for Sergei Rachmaninoff that he is associated with Romanticism (an edit which is frequently performed by doubtless well-meaning editors in Template:Romanticism) - how does that become evident and how does it get resolved? Does this mean that editors would have to regularly scrutinize Wikidata infoboxes/templates to check them?--Smerus (talk) 13:42, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

There are several points to your question. First of all in this case Wikidata is able to hold all the information and you will for example be able to add Romanticism and mark it as deprecated there for example. (The last part is not possible right now but will be). So you can have several statements (with sources) saying different things and you can pick what you want to show in the infobox. So when they want to add this information on Wikidata people will see it there and stop hopefully. The other part is about how the editors on a Misplaced Pages will notice changes on Wikidata. It'll show up in recent changes and their watchlist. This already happens now for language link changes. --Lydia Pintscher (WMDE) (talk) 13:49, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

And on top of this, Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Composers does not use infoboxes at all and thus will not be affected any Phase II changes on Wikidata at all.--Ymblanter (talk) 14:12, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

Could you talk about the implications of projects (like Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Composers) that choose not to have an infobox? I understand the immediate implications. What about the future? -- kosboot (talk) 14:18, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

This is really something for those projects (or the whole community) to discuss and decide on; I don't think Wikidata itself is in a position to say anything specific. Andrew Gray (talk) 14:31, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

Exactly, this is why I opened this thread.--Ymblanter (talk) 14:35, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

I still don't understand why this is a "policy"-question. Is there currently a policy for inforboxes? Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 00:55, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

No idea. I would obviously not object of moving the whole thing somewhere, but I guess the discussion shows it was somehow needed.--Ymblanter (talk) 07:47, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

A couple more questions:

• Out of interest, has anybody run any back-of-an-envelope estimates on the load that a serious uptake of Phase 2 will mean for WikiData's servers? -- e.g. how many page hits per minute, how many associated data items to be served, how much latency this may add to page response times, how much hardware is needed to deliver this, etc. ? Jheald (talk) 21:40, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Yes we've looked into this and hope it will all be ok obviously. However we're rolling it out on a small number of Wikipedias first like we've done for phase 1 as well. If there are any huge issues we expect them to show up there already so we can take measures if needed before they cause even bigger problems here. --Lydia Pintscher (WMDE) (talk) 11:39, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
• The other thing we need to recognise is that the switchover to data sourced from WikiData will primarily be driven by bots, and could ramp up very quickly once an unrestricted green light is given. Have any particular templates been selected as the initial test set for this procedure, to see e.g. whether the server load is indeed manageable and scales as predicted (and to expose and shake-out problems nearest the surface)? How far are we from WikiData having all the data loaded to fully serve those templates? (As I understand it at the moment, the bots are still going full tilt just to get to each WP page having the simplest most basic WD outline page, never mind whether those pages are fully loaded). So what's the timetable for testing in a controlled way a serious migration of some properties data to WD, and serving a serious amount of it back to live WP pages? Jheald (talk) 21:48, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
  • It'd be up to the local community to decide which templates they want to migrate and then to also do this. The development team does not interfere with that part. As you said bots are already running to fill Wikidata with data. If you come up with a specific infobox template that you'd want to migrate first I am sure some of the bot authors would be happy to help add the necessary data for them to Wikidata. --Lydia Pintscher (WMDE) (talk) 11:39, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

Image formatting

If someone is going to do any work with infoboxes, it would be nice to address a very frustrating inconsistency. Many infoboxes have an image parameter, but there are at ;east three different ways of making the entry:

1. Full: e.g. ]
2. No bracket: e.g. File:foofoo.jpg
3. Bare: e.g. foofoo.jpg

Can we harmonize this as part of this initiative?--SPhilbrick(Talk) 14:19, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

There is a specific Commons file type, so at least from the Wikidata end you won't need to worry about inconsistent syntax. --Rschen7754 21:07, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

This is nothing to do with Wikidata. Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Infoboxes is already addressing such inconsistencies. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 22:09, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

I think I understand that it is not directly related to Wikidata, as it doesn't have anything to do with data stored at Wikidata. However, I think

1. the infobox conventions should be harmonized
2. addressing Wikidata issues means someone will be editing and changing infoboxes
3. while one is making a change to an infobox is a good time to harmonize the convention for file names

Is my syllogism correct? --SPhilbrick(Talk) 19:16, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

Citations on Wikidata?

Has any thought been given to putting citations and references on Wikidata? This would seem to be a great use of the resource. I'm sure this would be phase 3 or 4, but I'm wondering if this has been discussed yet. Thanks. 64.40.54.79 (talk) 08:52, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

Yes it's being worked on. --Lydia Pintscher (WMDE) (talk) 11:41, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

Thank you 64.40.57.72 (talk) 06:45, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Problems

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

, , . First of all, this is English Misplaced Pages. Please write your comments in English. I don't speak Russian. I would like to ask you to read the WP:NFCC|non-free content criteria and in particular WP:NFCC#1|criterion 1. Files like :File:Doc balt flot1.jpg are not permitted because someone else can draw a freely licensed map of the same area. There are already freely licensed maps of all parts of the world. For example,Openstreetmap can be used for this purpose. Photos like :File:SMX-25 - Diving frigate.JPG are not permitted because it seems that vehicles of the same model still exist. It is possible to take other photos of the same vehicle model and publish those photos under a free licence. For example, see WP:NFC#UUI §1 which says that you can't upload unfree photos of buildings which still exist. Stefan2 16:05, 5 March 2013 (UTC) File:Подземоход Требелева.jpg ? Podzemohod Trebeleva was tested in the Urals, Mount Grace, in 1946. Trebelev intended to use his podzemohod in various fields: digging tunnels for urban communication, exploration, mining, etc. However, the design proved to be unreliable, and the project was abandoned. - Now it does not exist. File:SMX-25 - Diving frigate.JPG - it does not exist at all. It is only on paper. SMX-25 a gunship project of the 21st century, a hybrid of surface ship and submarine. it seems that vehicles of the same model still exist. - there is no such ships. How can redraw what does not exist outside the project on paper? File:Doc balt flot1.jpg - It is not a geographical map, it is map of the military facilities. This is the result of several experts to repeat that an outsider can not. Vyacheslav84 (talk) 04:31, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

why is this here? Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 04:56, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

but where? --Vyacheslav84 (talk) 05:27, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

Vyacheslav84, you can't expect people to want to help you if you start conversations by called them "мудак", as you did on Stefan2's talk page. We have strict criteria for the use of non-free content, which Stefan has tried to explain to you despite the insults directed at him and at Misplaced Pages in general. I would suggest that you apologise on Stefan's talk page and then maybe he will explain things further. Phil Bridger (talk) 17:11, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

Vyacheslav84 (talk) 09:01, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Vyacheslav84 (talk · contribs) claimed that some of the images show items which no longer exist or which do not yet exist. In that case, I agree that it would be hard to replace the images (at least for the moment), so I removed the "replaceable fair use" template from those images. When I tagged the files, I didn't see any immediate indication that there were no copies of the items of which you would be able to take a photo. I meant to reply to the discussion on my talk page when I removed the tags, but there was something in between, so I forgot to comment about it.

There is a map (File:Doc balt flot1.jpg) which Vyacheslav84 claims isn't replaceable. I do not agree here. There are plenty of free maps of Kaliningrad which can be used. For example, Openstreetmap has a useful map of Kaliningrad. The locations of military bases isn't copyrightable, so someone could take the map from Openstreetmap and indicate the locations of the places on that map. Finally, File:Doc balt flot1.jpg is in Russian, which is unsuitable for English Misplaced Pages. If there are further disputes about this file, I suggest that we take this file to WP:FFD where it is more visible for people who often discuss file issues.

Finally, I would appreciate if I am informed about any discussions concerning me. I see that this discussion started about 15 hours ago, but I didn't notice the discussion until Phil Bridger (talk · contribs) notified me about 13 hours later. I usually do not read the village pump discussions on this project. --Stefan2 (talk) 19:47, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

File:Doc balt flot1.jpg - new map is a complete copy of the old map in part actual material. WP:FFD- well can move the discussion there. It is not a geographical map (there is not no mountains or rivers or forests or other geographical elements), it is map of the military facilities. This is the result work of several experts, that an outsider can not to repeat. it Contour Kaliningrad region with scheme location military facilities. Besides military facilities represent special characters, so can no redraw. Replaceability No. Openstreetmap such maps does no. Vyacheslav84 (talk) 08:54, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

The map is obviously replaceable, I think it is pretty much obvious.--Ymblanter (talk) 20:39, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

Да? Ну тогда Вам ведь не проблема найти свободную замену данной карты? Если вы не заметили, то это не географическая карта, а схема расположения военных объектов (еще и выполненная с помощью специфических военных обозначений). Мне очень интересно, как вы найдете аналогичную карту на гугл-maps (на которой чисто географические карты). А вот географических элементов здесь нет вообще - есть только контур области (причем он нужен чисто для указания местонахождения военных объектов). Vyacheslav84 (talk) 04:46, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Doo Biʼééʼ Łichííʼí bizaad bee yáníłtiʼ da; doo nihił bééhózin da. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 05:26, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

File:Doc balt flot1.jpg - It is not a geographical map (there is not no mountains or rivers or forests or other geographical elements), it is map of the military facilities. This is the result work of several experts, that an outsider can not to repeat. it Contour Kaliningrad region with scheme location military facilities. Besides military facilities represent special characters, so can no redraw. Replaceability No. Openstreetmap such maps does no. Vyacheslav84 (talk) 04:40, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

All maps are replacable. That information contained at that map can be put onto a free-use map, it contains no information which could not be recreated. --Jayron32 05:21, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

WTF? This is impossible to re-do and takes 15 doctor-titles and 76 years of study? Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 05:29, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

It will not make a free card, because the main author information (the rest is not important.) Vyacheslav84 (talk) 05:47, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

card, because what? Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 05:49, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Redraw the maximum will be replaced color Contour (Contour itself can not be changed). The rest will remain unchanged - the location of military facilities. Vyacheslav84 (talk) 05:56, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Free maps of Kaliningrad exist. You can take those maps and put dots, colors, and explanatory text on it anywhere you want. There's simply no need to have a copyrighted map when anyone with the proper skill can create a free map to display the same information. --Jayron32 05:59, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

(ec) Your communication-skills in English are insufficient. I think I understood you don't want to re-do the map. That's not an excuse. Then you won't get to use any. This thing is clearly replaceable by anyone with some basic Inkscape or Gimp skills. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 05:59, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

For example, if a tank regiment located in Kaliningrad, the redraw, we can not move it to another location. Vyacheslav84 (talk) 08:45, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Why would you move it? You can't do that with the picture you have... It's a jpg. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 06:17, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

New map is a complete copy of the old map in part actual material. Vyacheslav84 (talk) 08:42, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

And your point is...? Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 09:06, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

These signs are the author's work, their redrawing the image does not do free. Vyacheslav84 (talk) 12:08, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

There are some severe language issues happening here. Can we please find someone fluent in Russian to interpret for Vyacheslav84 in this conversation. — Hex (❝?!❞) 17:03, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

I am fluent in Russian and I already explained him on my talk page why and how a free map can be perfectly made in half an hour, but he continues to insist. It might be important to notice that Vyacheslav84 was at some point was banned from Russian Misplaced Pages, was active on WO-like Russian resources explaining what a shithole Misplaced Pages is and why nobody ever would want to work there, and then got unblocked and placed under mentorship and severe restrictions. I am afraid if he fails to understand what is going on he would be banned from here as well.--Ymblanter (talk) 17:10, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Во-первых я был забанен не из-за качества статей (можете посмотреть например это ru:Опытный малый погружающийся ракетный корабль проекта 1231 - настолько плохая статья, что я даже на КХС ее выдвинул), а из-за никак не связанной с экзопедизмом метапедической репутацией. Во вторых процитирую слова Vladimir Solovjev из скайпа: Vladimir Solovjev: Тут сложный вопрос. Если знаки - это авторская работа, то простая их перерисовка не факт, что сделает изображение свободным. Но там в АП очень много нюансов. Vladimir Solovjev: Контур под охрану АП точно не попадает. А вот знаки вполне могут. Просьба перевести этот мой пост на английский язык здесь для коллег. Заранее благодарю. Vyacheslav84 (talk) 17:42, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

My lousy translation: First, I was not banned because of the quality of my articles, and one of them I even nominated for FA, but because of my bad reputation in the project which was not related with my articles. Concerning the map, I would like to cite Vladimir Solovjev (a ru.wp admin): If the signs are copyrighted, copying them will not make the map a free imahe. Whereas the contour is certainly free, the signs can very well be copyrighted.--Ymblanter (talk) 17:49, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

My response: Use blue and yellow squares instead of the signs, and you immediately get PD-trivial. I am not sure way I should repeat it for the third time.--Ymblanter (talk) 17:49, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Proposal instead of special symbols used triangles squares and circles equivalent ideas in mathematics instead of an infinity sign to use the - cross, instead of a plus - circle, instead of the integral - triangle. Vyacheslav84 (talk) 19:23, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

• Vladimir Solovjev: If the signs - is the author's work, the simple fact of not copying them, making the image free. But there are many nuances AP. Vladimir Solovjev: Circuit protected AP just does not fit. But the signs are quite. If the circuit is free, but there is no sign, then that will give repainting? Vyacheslav84 (talk) 19:46, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Maps consist of two parts: the location of military installations signs and topographic contour. 1. From topographic contours of a solution Wikimedia - As a result of the court decisions, following parts of a map are in the public domain, and may be used freely: ... Geographic or topographic features. Those are facts, and facts aren't copyrightable 2. Location of military facilities we must to redraw the hair in exactly with the original maps, so this is pure kopivio. Vyacheslav84 (talk) 04:40, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

Hidden infoboxes

Are collapsed/ hidden infoboxes acceptable? Please comment at Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style/Infoboxes#Hidden infoboxes. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 18:17, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

See Cathedral of Blessed Mother Teresa in Pristina for a current example. The image is removed from the infobox and the small infobox (coordinates, city, country, denomination for this church) is {{hidden}} so that you have to click the link to see them. MOS:COLLAPSE generally prohibits hidden text in articles for reasons of WP:ACCESSIBILITY, but collapsing infoboxes is not addressed explicitly. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:05, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

Regarding Wikipediocracy

I did think the Village Pump was probably a better place for this discussion than the Administrators' Noticeboard, but I thought I would get more involvement in the discussion over there. But Wehwalt is right, that's not the right forum for the discussion, this is. So, here we are. Here, i'll copy my comment from the section over there.

"This is really the last straw. We've enabled Misplaced Pages Review and lately Wikipediocracy for years and all the chilling effects they've tried to have on Misplaced Pages and its editors, even though the site is largely made up of banned editors. But the recent incident involving Cla68 and Kevin (which i'm not discussing here, go to the Arbcom discussion page if you want to argue that one out) went too far. Actively, during the discussion, there was a long discussion thread going on at Wikipediocracy, wherein banned editor Vigilant began outing/doxing any editors whose comments he disliked from the discussion, including doing so to a minor. This was in an attempt to get those editors to stop participating in the Misplaced Pages discussion. Something really needs to be done or steps need to be taken, because this sort of thing can't just be allowed. Make all the jokes you want about the old WP:BADSITES policy, but the strong-arm tactics on Wikipediocracy's part remains."

Now, as for specific policy changes, i'm not quite sure. It really comes down to two options. Is Wikipediocracy to be considered a wholly separate outside site unrelated to Misplaced Pages, which would make it fall under the rules of Off-wiki Harassment, or is it more connected to Misplaced Pages because of the heavy involvement of Misplaced Pages editors, formerly banned or current as it may be, which means it would fall under the normal on-wiki rules for such things, including outing/doxing. Silverseren 18:48, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Hypothetically, what would that even change? My read of the Off-wiki harassment section says that we can already punish editors on wiki who conduct off wiki outing. I hope your not proposing either a guilt by association policy, or trying to coerce those with authority there to exercise it to enforce[REDACTED] policy, under threat of on wiki punishment. Monty₈₄₅ 18:58, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Clarifying it as falling under Off-wiki Harassment would be good as well though, since that's been haphazardly enforced as it is. And, no, i'm not. The majority of times when doxing or other such things occur, it's by one of the banned editors and there's nothing we can do about that. However, sometimes, it has been conducted or heavily involved by someone who is still an editor here.

As for the authority thing, i'm not sure. I can definitely see though how being the moderator of a forum that is used to dox and otherwise negatively impact things on-wiki and then also being an administrator here is a problem. I think something does need to be brought up regarding that.

I might also add that considering the recent incidents regarding linking to the Wikipediocracy site and outing and such, we might want to get the site added to the blacklist, so that it's not possible to link to it here. That would fix that issue so it doesn't happen again. Silverseren 19:06, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Again, I would read the current off-wiki harrasment policy to apply, and it looks like it has existed in substantially the same form for over a year. Certainly no objection if you think it needs to be clarified. I wouldn't go further and try to punish people who don't personally violate that policy, even if they are seen as facilitating or encouraging it by participating someplace off-wiki. I could also see it torpedoing an RFA, but for someone who is already an admin, given the lack of consensus for any sort of admin removal process short of really serious misconduct, I think we should leave it alone. Maybe, some day, if there is an admin recall process, or other community process for removal it could be reconsidered. Monty₈₄₅ 19:25, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Then I guess going ahead with the blacklisting of the website URL and perhaps reinforcing the Off-wiki Harassment section is the best way to go for now. Silverseren 19:31, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

"Is Wikipediocracy to be considered a wholly separate outside site unrelated to Misplaced Pages"? Yes, I think it should be considered that, if only because it is a wholly separate site unrelated to Misplaced Pages. Of all the nonsense you've peddled here about WR and Wikipediocracy, Silver, this has to be the dumbest. I think you should have taken the hint when this discussion got closed down on WP:AN. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 19:43, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Except it has tied itself so closely to Misplaced Pages, I don't really think it falls under what the Off-wiki harassment section is meant to cover. Silverseren 19:46, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Wikipediocracy is a completely separate entity from Misplaced Pages. Misplaced Pages rules have zero control over them and their rules have zero control here. Misplaced Pages's rules only control members of Misplaced Pages. Misplaced Pages's rules do cover actions that current Wikipedians take off-Wiki, but doxing/outing clearly falls within the "Off-wiki Harassment" policy. I can see some kind of an argument that a COI arises for Misplaced Pages admins who serve as mods on a site like Wikipediocracy, and there is no current policy really covering this kind of COI (which is really most comparable to COI within the realm of professional responsibility), but is that what you are talking about here? Because there's no need to declare foreign websites as part of Misplaced Pages for such a rule to be implemented. -Thibbs (talk) 20:35, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Whatever works. I just feel something needs to be done to deal with or at least somewhat mitigate the issue of them doxing/outing editors and then threatening those editors with the information in order to make them stop contributing to on-wiki discussions. Because that is direct on-wiki disruption. And really, being a moderator of such a forum, does seem like being a facilitator of it to me. Just being a normal member wouldn't be, but being in charge would be. Silverseren 21:05, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Just out of abject curiosity, but why are you intersecting with them? I remember dealing with issues surrounding you, Selina Kyle, and Misplaced Pages Review years ago. It is possible to edit Misplaced Pages without intersecting with WR etc., even if you are a former member there. Accent on the former. I used to be a member on WR; I left and never looked back and unsurprisingly things have gone swimmingly. If they're such a problem then why interact with them? Why let them interact with you? And what is going on that causes them to care about you and you to care about them? Find that out, fix it, and be happy. --Golbez (talk) 21:14, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

You're saying I should just ignore all of the things they do, all of the attacks on other editors, all of the harassment? Even if it's not directed at me, ignoring it would be irresponsible. Silverseren 21:17, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

• Seren, basically what you are agitating for here is for an external website, because of the overlap of membership with the Misplaced Pages, to be considered of the body. If that were to happen, then anything said or done "over there" would be subject to WP:CIVIL, WP:NPA, WP:AGF, and a myriad other wiki-acronyms. What you're proposing is no so dissimilar to public schools that try to regulate the behavior of students when they are off-campus and outside of school hours. This is a very swampy morass you're venturing into here. Tarc (talk) 21:28, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

• That's true. Though I do think Off-wiki Harassment should be properly enforced then. Also, blacklisting of the URL seems to be in order considering recent events. Those are simple, easy steps to be taken. Silverseren 21:41, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

• Oh, Br'er Fox, please don't throw Br'er Wikipediocracy into the blacklist-patch. It would just be an awful, terrible, horrible thing to do to them. Their throats would get so powerful sore from screaming I'M-BEING-CENSORED. Lord almighty, the wikidrama would just shame them into next week. Land sakes, don't you know how they all feel about being the center of attention? You wouldn't want to see them suffer so. -- Seth Finkelstein (talk) 00:58, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Seren, this is like, what, third? Fourth? forum that you've tried raising this in? And... gee, not even people with impeccable Wiki credentials are agreeing with you. Though they're diplomatic about it (their skill at diplomacy is why they have these impeccable credentials) so rather than telling you off, they close your threads or tell you "maybe you should waste your time on something else" (more or less). I don't have impeccable Wiki credentials nor am I very diplomatic. So I'll tell you straight up - these attempts at WP:FORUMSHOPPING have already crossed well over into the territory of TROLLING. Yes, you're basically trolling all the Misplaced Pages editors who happen to comment on Wikipediocracy sometimes. Stop it. At the very least stop making stuff up while you do it.Volunteer Marek 22:52, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Second? I posted it to AN and Wehwalt closed it saying AN isn't the right forum for this (and he's right, as it's a policy issue), so I moved it here. Oh, and please do tell me what i'm making up. Silverseren 22:58, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Note that there was a long discussion about blacklisting the websites on Commons last year. The discussion at Commons:Commons:Requests for comment/offsite discussions#Spam blacklist may contain something useful for Misplaced Pages. There were also a few comments at Commons:MediaWiki talk:Spam-blacklist. I am not convinced that blacklisting is the option. The problem, as I see it, is that the discussions are taking place somewhere in the first place, and I don't think that blacklisting certain websites would prevent people from harassing other people at external websites. The person who is attacked in the discussions is probably equally hurt regardless of whether it is possible to link to the discussions or not.

About off-wiki harassment, I would make it easy and say that anything which can't be deleted by any Misplaced Pages administrator is off-wiki activity. The discussions at Misplaced Pages Review can only be deleted by a selected few Misplaced Pages administrators who also happen to be administrators of Misplaced Pages Review. That said, if the activity is directly related to Misplaced Pages, and the only reason for having the activity off-wiki is that it would immediately be deleted as G10, then I don't think that it would be a big issue to restrict the person's access to Misplaced Pages. For example, I recall that a user was banned by the arbitration committee last year for posting three photos to an external web site.

That said, I would like to point out that I haven't followed the discussions about the websites on Misplaced Pages and I have not read the threads on the websites which started this discussion, so I don't know if I have missed something important. Generally speaking, I have only looked at the websites if there have been references to the websites in discussions on Commons. --Stefan2 (talk) 23:44, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

One would have thought and hoped that if there was harassment of Misplaced Pages editors going on anywhere, then anyone involved in or helping to facilitate such harassment would be treated as persona non grata (i.e. banned) from Misplaced Pages. Is this controversial? I don't understand what the disagreement is about. Victor Yus (talk) 07:13, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

The people who are actively harassing other editors offsite were already banned. The disagreement is about whether the website that hosts the harassment (amongst another content) should be blacklisted. Someguy1221 (talk) 07:23, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. Does "blacklisting" here mean a technical operation (preventing linking to the site), or does it mean that people involved with that site would not be allowed to be active on Misplaced Pages? Victor Yus (talk) 07:59, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

It means to prevent linking to the site, a la MediaWiki:Spam-blacklist. Someguy1221 (talk) 08:09, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Do tell what helping to facilitate means, Victor. — Hex (❝?!❞)  FREE KEVIN  13:14, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

I guess, for example, allowing it to take place on an outside website that the person has some kind of control over. (By harassment I don't mean mere criticism, I mean stuff like threats, publication of private information, etc.) Victor Yus (talk) 14:32, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

See also WP:Battle, which prohibits off-site/on-site--political/personal grudge pursuits. Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:05, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Would that it did (inasmuch as these "policies" have any real significance), but it seems to be all about on-site activity. Victor Yus (talk) 15:27, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

(Wise parenthetical note) However, while mostly so, as one would expect, it's not entirely so re offsite grudges/politics (although some nexus is needed), generally because of effect re 5 pillars, particularly NPOV and CIV (see also off-site canvass). Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:45, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Victor Yus that there's no current policy barring a Wikipedian from presiding over abuses like this on a third party website. But I think it's questionable whether such a thing would be desirable. Advocates for such measures would probably proceed best under a "professional conflict of interest" argument (which would entail greatly expanding our current WP:COI) but I think this proposal is quite a controversial one. Many feel that belonging to Misplaced Pages shouldn't impose affirmative requirements on your life. It's one thing to impose a restriction by saying that if caught actively harming Misplaced Pages off-site then you face penalties, but it's considerably more of an imposition to say that if found to be sitting back while others (especially non-Wikipedians) violate Misplaced Pages's rules then you will be penalized. This would force editors who are simultaneous members of both communities and who have done no wrong to chose allegiance with one community or the other. In a way it's just as pathetic as their attempt to gag editors here by doxing/outing them. Unless there's actual evidence of professional misconduct (e.g. that a Misplaced Pages admin and mod there is secretly funneling them editors' private information, etc.), the situation may not demand those kinds of harsh measures. Some elements of these groups thrive on feeling like victims and blacklisting them and taking reactionary measures against them only affirms and validates them. -Thibbs (talk) 15:31, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

I was thinking of a situation (I've no idea if it's extant or hypothetical, though it seems to have been alluded to here) where a Wikipedian has the power (as a moderator or administrator, say) to take action against harassment that's occurring on another site, but purposely declines to do so. It's not that I would want to impose "Misplaced Pages's rules" on another site, but I would have thought we would require ordinary standards of social decency. If editor A leaves Misplaced Pages due to inability to accept the community's tolerating the presence of editor B, who is facilitating harassment of editor A somewhere off-Misplaced Pages, then the wrong result has been achieved. There's little we can do to stop the harassment, but we can at least show some solidarity with the harassee. Victor Yus (talk) 17:16, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

I'd say it depends on the degree of facilitation going on. If there is an admin who is actively giving information to third parties to materially facilitate outing then this is definitely sanctionable. But "purposefully declining to take action against those who are outing a WP editor" sounds more like just a rhetorical conversion of a passive non-action into an active one. A very hardline approach would be to say that admins at Misplaced Pages can't have anything to do with anti-Misplaced Pages sites because it would give the appearance of COI-related impropriety. Currently that's not policy here though, and I think it would be a hard sell since it's so draconian. But from your example with editor A and B, I don't really see how we get the wrong result. If "A" is unable to accept the community's tolerance of "B" then the conflict would seem to lie between "A" and the community. Misplaced Pages is a collaborative endeavor so if WP:DR has been attempted and the community determines "B" not to be a problem then "A" has to learn to work with "B" or avoid him. If that means leaving Misplaced Pages then that's "A"'s decision. -Thibbs (talk) 18:15, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Sure, but I'm suggesting (not having any particular case in mind, and now even knowing whether there are any particular cases that I might have had in mind) that in the case of editors such as my hypothetical B, the community ought to regard them as a problem. Not because they're "involved" with another site, or because that site is "anti-Misplaced Pages", but because they're specifically doing something that isn't decent towards another member of our community who (let's say) has done nothing to deserve it. (Some sorts of inaction can obviously be felt, in a social context, to be a form of action.) Victor Yus (talk) 11:24, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

I see where you're coming from. Personally, though, I think it entirely depends on the degree to which B has facilitated the situation against A. For us to construct a rule requiring B to take affirmative off-wiki action including banning or redacting others on a third-party website that is intended to critique Misplaced Pages,... that goes too far. It's tantamount to censorship (though I realize it's intended here with a good cause) and would most likely lead to B being stripped of his mod duties at the third party site at which he's enforcing foreign rules. Imagine if an online hunting forum were moderated by someone enforcing the PETA forum rules. I think it's entirely fair for Misplaced Pages to punish those that take positive steps to harm Misplaced Pages off-site (such as outing "enemies" on another forum and thereby reducing collaboration and participation here). Personally, though, I wouldn't extend that to punishing those who have merely sat idle while others harmed Misplaced Pages. -Thibbs (talk) 14:26, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

Indeed, Stefan raised the point I also wanted to raise. They were blacklisted on Commons for a couple of days, and that caused so much drama with Greg Kohs (oh, sorry, Gregory Kohs) appearing there in person, and the whole bunch of people suddenly popping up to explain how bad the censure is, so that I would rather not have it for the second time here.--Ymblanter (talk) 08:15, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Besides, I'm not sure if blacklisting would be effective. It would still be possible to link to the discussions, for example by archiving them using WebCite and linking to the archived copy. --Stefan2 (talk) 12:58, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

And if the WMF tookover WebCite (as has been seriously suggested) what would happen to such archives? Do you think someone like Silver seren would delete such a document under the banner of protecting the privacy of Wikipedians? Would they also delete archived pages that contain WP:BLP violations? Or WP:NPOV violations? And would the keepers of such an archive behave as ethically and consistently as the admins on WP? Just wondering out loud. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 17:53, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

The BADSITES concept never does go away, does it? I think blacklisting a critic site would be a "Scientology-ish" action that would be an abuse of the blacklist as an attempt to keep the Wiki-walled-garden free of criticism that hurts its residents' tender feelings. *Dan T.* (talk) 13:15, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

I have only recently become familiar with the Wikipediocracy site and I whole heartedly agree that it has a lot of useless comments and banter from people who got thrown out of Misplaced Pages for various reasons. However, it should be noted that there are a lot of good points raised there about some of the extremely stupid things that occur hereor with the processes that WP has, doesn't have, doesn't enforce or only enforces when it suits them. If Misplaced Pages truly wants to be rid of Wikipediocracy and the majority of the comments there then they should take some time for self reflection and seriously look at the issues raised. Many are just sniped comments true, but there are some good points and those should be addressed.

If, however you want to add coal to the fires and generate more bantor for the Wikipediocracy folks then feel free to blacklist the site and I would recommend banning any Misplaced Pages editor who has participated in the comments there. This would include a number of administrators, some Arbcom members and some folks at the WMF. Yes this is Kumioko. 138.162.0.41 (talk) 16:10, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Hey, Kumioko. Thanks for actually saying who you are, it's more of a backbone than any of the others have. I just wanted to state that if Wikipediocracy focused on actual, proper criticism of Misplaced Pages, individual incidents, and whatever, then it would be fine. But it doesn't. Most of the time, it devolves into insults and intimidation, and attacks via outing/doxing that leads to threatening editors. It's because of these sorts of things that i'm making the proposal. If Wikipediocracy actually held itself to being a proper critic site and kicked out those who go too far and make it personal, then I think Wikipediocracy would actually be more well-regarded. As was noted by Risker in the Signpost, Misplaced Pages Review back in the early days was like this and much better because of it. But it seems to me that you then started letting in elements that were all about making it personal, like Vigilant, and it lowered the level of the criticism to just being an attack and no longer a critique. Silverseren 21:15, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

For the record, I did not say that in the Signpost, that was a link to a different discussion, and I also stated my opposition to blacklisting Wikipediocracy. I do see this as a BADSITES reaction. Risker (talk) 00:11, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

Seren, that comment of Risker's was baloney. WR in the old days was absolutely lambasted by the Old Guard here, what Risker is doing now is a simple and common move seen in politics; demonize your current opponent by comparing him to one of your old opponents, to try to portray them as getting worse over time. You see it now in US politics, where Democrats say the current Tea Party-style conservatives "aren't nearly as bad as Ron Reagan, Reagan was a conservative we could work with." People who make these sort of BS comments bank on the listener having a non-existent memory, because those who were actually around in the 80's recall liberals slamming Reagan as the worst of the worst in conservatism, who was nothing like the old agreeable conservatives they used to work with, and so on. It is a parlor game. Tarc (talk) 21:31, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Obviously, I disagree with you, Tarc; I was not being revisionist at all. The percentage of useful criticism (i.e., pointing out things that were fixable, rather than continuing old battles) on Misplaced Pages Review during the 2008-2011 era was considerably higher than Wikipediocracy has managed to come up with. Risker (talk) 00:11, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

So you're saying the old WR had just as many incidents of outing/doxing, harassment, and threats? Maybe I just didn't notice it as much. Silverseren 21:36, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Except this isn't being proposed because they are a critic site, that's irrelevant and not even what BADSITES was about. This is proposed because of the repeated doxing, threats, and attacks on editors here from that site. And the fact that linking to off-site harassment is not allowed, it seems helpful as well to blacklist linking to the site, so we don't get incidences of having to block people for linking there, like what happened recently with Cla and others. Silverseren 20:55, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

• Analogy time; Wikipediocracy/WR is to the Misplaced Pages as the Daily Show is to the media. Sometimes crassness (Jon Stewart's "Go Fuck Yourself" gospel choir to Fox News is by far the funniest thing in the history of funny) is the only way to break through the walled garden and actually get one's message through to people who exist 24/7 with their fingers in their ears and thumbs up their asses. And if you're wondering how that could be anatomically possible, when speaking about a Misplaced Pages culture that sometimes appears to have its head up its own ass on matters from smut-on-Commons to Polandball to BLP abuse, they have no trouble reaching. Tarc (talk) 17:27, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

• This discussion started with the key concern ... there was a long discussion thread going on at Wikipediocracy, wherein banned editor Vigilant began outing/doxing any editors whose comments he disliked from the discussion, including doing so to a minor. This was in an attempt to get those editors to stop participating in the Misplaced Pages discussion. Is that bad? Yes. Is there anything that can be done about it? I don't think so, and if there is, let's hear it, instead of handwaving. The insurmountable problem would appear to be that Bad Things done outside of Misplaced Pages cannot be subject to any form of on-wiki sanction if the actor in question isn't active on Misplaced Pages. So unless there's some form of off-wiki sanction (legal action? police?? DDOS???) that can be applied, it's best to remember the Streisand Effect and ignore. Rd232 18:26, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

• The simplest method we can do right now is blacklist the URL, so no linking to such outing and doxing can be done. It'll save people from doing it without knowing the rules on such things and ending up blocked because of it. No reason to even let links to outing and doxing be accidentally done anyways when we can just simply stop the posting of such a link. Silverseren 20:57, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Break 1

Here's my comments, because I don't care to read every comment and reply individually:

• Wikipediocracy has been doing the things that I will mention next for more instances than this one.
• Wikipediocracy has editors, both banned and even experienced, that use it to coordinate both off-wiki and on-wiki harassment and outing/doxing of editors who disagree with even one person on this issue.
• A majority of the users on Wikipediocracy seem to have a view that is on one side of the Eastern Europe issue, and one side of the Arbitration decision there. This commonality allows them to effectively coordinate and perform harassment and outing.
• The site moderators, some of which hold advanced permissions with access to private information here on Misplaced Pages, fail to do anything to stop this outing/doxing and harassment, when it is obviously in their power to remove the posts and reprimand the users posting the material.
• Multiple editors have fallen prey to the site and its doxing/outing, and it is effectively censoring their opinions on Misplaced Pages for fear of publicizing of data.
• Editors at Wikipediocracy have the idea that doxing is nothing bad at all, even though most users will not want their online and public identities connected. Users on wiki have expressed a similar opinion on that site.
• This issue needs to be dealt with by the Misplaced Pages community, as the Arbitration Committee has expressed that they do not wish/want/feel they need to deal with this.

Misplaced Pages cannot exist with this group of both experienced and banned users effectively controlling the opinions of other editors, and editors participating still be able to edit and hold advanced privacy-related permissions on Misplaced Pages. gwickwire_editing 18:53, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

• • Everything stated by this "gwickwire" fellow above is quite frankly a load of horseshit, the only point of contention being whether this person actually believes what he claims (i.e. ignorance) or is practicing a deliberate deception (i.e. lying). The "Wikipediocracy" is a web forum and blog with a very wide variety of users with varying reasons why they are there. You cannot paint with one broad brush the entire userbase of that site, nor accuse them of broad, cabal-like conspiracies to out and harass. Some users there are rather crass, some are indifferent, some just go there to read what's being talked about, and so on. Just like the Misplaced Pages itself has its share good editors, bad editors, and downright vermin. Any grouping of people who do not self-select their membership but rather is open to all is going to see a wide spectrum of types of people. There have bene several people banned from the WIkipediocracy in the last year; to their credit, they do not cater to the true lunatic fringe, much as the Misplaced Pages does when it decides it is tired of tre troublemakers like Fae, Benjiboy, ChildofMidnight, and a host of other luminary troublemakers.
  • So in short, "gwickwire", take this piece of advice; zip it. Tarc (talk) 19:08, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
    • How about you listen to me? I will not be censored or forced to "zip it" by the opinions and actions of the users on Wikipediocracy, nor those who support their actions as you do. This is an issue that has spanned more than me, and needs to be dealt with promptly before Misplaced Pages editors get censored more by the threats and harassment on WO. The users on WO openly ask others for info when outing/doxing editors, and some users on WO that are asking for/condoning this information/praising it when it happens are experienced editors here. This needs to stop. Now. Maybe Wikipediocracy doesn't self select their membership, but their members select to participate, when they know that the site outs/doxes/harasses editors. That's inappropriate, and in the real world would be considered very unethical. gwickwire_editing 19:17, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
      • And that discussion was shutdown and the user in question likely admonished as they usually do when things get out of hand, same as what happens here. I have no love for several of the members there at all, and the feeling is mutual. I am a sort of Ron Paul-ish figure in that I detest certain parts of the Misplaced Pages and the Wikipediocracy equally. So your attempts to tar the site and the users as a whole with one broad brush is, again, bullshit. Perhaps in the future, you will be more cautious with what personal information you choose to share on a website publicly viewable by millions. Call it a "teachable moment", and move on. Tarc (talk) 19:30, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
        • The discussion was shut down only because of the possibility of a minor being involved. Not because of the other outing on the thread (which is incidentally still there). I'm not taring the whole site. I'm taring the actions of some on the site, and the fact that the others on that site still post there, even just a few posts after said outing, with happy cheerful messages praising the outing. Perhaps in the future you will actually think about why it'd be bad to allow editors to be censored and threatened by others in order to stop their opinions. gwickwire_editing 20:58, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
          • Really! Then it appears the scallywags take more care of kids over there then the saints do over here, where it can take weeks or months to get a photo of an adolescent's torso removed. Plus I believe that the denizens here are quite OK with kids being treated as adults, such as 13yo becoming part of the Pornography Project, so could you explain why the badsite should treat kids any differently then they are treated here. For example there have been some gross examples of piling on and bullying of kids over at ANI, RFA, and countless other places. John lilburne (talk) 21:22, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
            • However, this site coordinates on-wiki harassment and impersonation of editors. Also, this off-wiki site coordinates and posts doxing and outing of editors here. If anything on Wikipediocracy were to happen on Misplaced Pages, it would earn the users involved a very swift indefinite block. The issue here is people thinking that it's okay for very experienced users to participate on this just because it's off wiki. Onwiki/offwiki makes no difference, this site has users here who are not blocked participating in and condoning outing and harassment. That's against policy, and we can stop it, or at least prevent it from moving on wiki more. gwickwire_editing 21:27, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
              • The members on this site engage in coordinated harassment and bullying. They do it on IRC, mailing lists, twitter, facebook, and skype. Outing/doxing call it what you will is rife across the internet, people post streetview screencaps of people's houses. Sheesh if you don't want that to happen then don't post stuff on the web that can lead back to your real life, or get off the internet, because sure as night follows day if you engage in controversy on the intertubes someone will post your details. In 99.999% of cases that is all it is. A pretty lame sort of "I know who you are" thing. Its not as if they are going to travel from London to New York, or from LA to Ulan Bator to seek out the person they are posting details about. John lilburne (talk) 21:45, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
                • Yeah, outing/doxing is rife. But it can be at least prevented from impacting Misplaced Pages by censoring editors. Hell, if you think it's okay for these users to censor me for two days until I can get them to stop, that's bad. Misplaced Pages works on consensus, not consensus with the caveat that users who disagree with someone on Wikipediocracy are threatened with outing, and since they don't want to be outed are forced to not comment. This push on Wikipediocracy to silence users on-wiki is the issue, not the fact the site exists. gwickwire_editing 01:19, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
                  • Except it doesn't impact[REDACTED] at all. Now if someone was phoning your home, or your school, or your workplace that would be different. But even though all your information is still available in caches, and on archive sites, they aren't are they. Y'all raise the spectre of outing/doxing to a level of abuse akin to someone posting dogshit through your letter box. It is a particular spectre that has been raised by people that generally behave like arseholes on the internet. For most people it doesn't matter a damn and has no importance. If you think it does well I've got news for you: If any of your friends have facebook, twitter, flickr, LinkedIn, or Google+ accounts then your dox are all over the internet, because YOU can be traced via THEIR social network, and the information that you and they have have posted on any of those sites. John lilburne (talk) 08:52, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

• I have some unfortunate news for you gwick, harassment happens all the time on Misplaced Pages and it is rarely dealt with appropriately even when reported. Some of us on here know this from experience and/or from observing others facing it. Harassment certainly comes from WO as well at times. People posting on WO, however, mostly engage in discussion of certain developments on Misplaced Pages in a way that is legitimately critical just as most here try to deal with individuals in a respectful manner. There are disagreements with certain approaches on WO, but it is fundamentally about criticism. A number do believe anonymity is part of the problem, I am personally not one of them, and act accordingly. Most of the criticism on WO concerns cultural or structural problems with Misplaced Pages, occasionally highlighting certain editors as being particularly striking examples of such problems. Editors who face the most severe criticism, such as outing, tend to be editors who engage in some of the worst abuses on Misplaced Pages.

Understandably you are frustrated because you got attacked by one poster there upset about this situation with Cla68, but also understand that Cla68 contributes to this project more than most, if not all, of the people doggedly supporting his removal and does so largely without any gratitude. He has also stood against some of the worst abuses of this project that have occurred and so he gets a lot of sympathy. People were and are rightly displeased at the flippant way he has been treated, especially when compared to how others are being and have been treated. That means, unfortunately, that some are very hot about defending him and one of those people was very vicious as a result. Still, you and the other editor you are talking about are mostly just seeing why one should be careful about sharing personal information because what was noted on WO was gleaned from info on your userpages. If you truly are concerned about your privacy than revealing personal details on one's userpage is not the way to protect it.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 21:10, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

First of all, I've seen maybe 10% of posts have legitimate criticism, the others on WO being only attack posts or harassment posts. It may have started as criticism, and still have some criticism, but it also hosts harassment and outing. I'm fine with criticism there, and we should encourage that. But we should not allow it if it continues to host and have users who out. You say that editors who face outing engage in worst abuse on Misplaced Pages. I can guarantee you that the three editors (including myself) who were doxed in this incident aren't abusers. We just made comments on an Arb decision/case. I don't care about Cla's contributions, they posted a link to outing. That is bad. Very bad. If Jimbo posted a link outing someone, I'd support his block too. Outing will ruin Misplaced Pages. And blocking to stop it and try to prevent users from wanting to do it is the way to go. Cla got blocked, with a simple instruction: e-mail BASC saying you'll not put the link up again. They failed to do that. Kevin stepped in and unblocked, against the OS team, and by effect of that against the functionaries. Regardless, this isn't about them, it's about the off-wiki site Wikipediocracy hosting outing and other content that leads to on-wiki harassment. I've had two harassment accounts created about me already in this incident. Because of Wikipediocracy. Just because I put on my userpage something does not mean I wish to be completely doxed, including address, phone numbers, etc. The fact that you think that makes it okay is appalling. If you see nothing wrong with Wikipediocracy and the harassment and outing that results from it, and the fact that experienced editors are participating in/condoning/asking for/praising this harassment and doxing, there's an issue. gwickwire_editing 21:24, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Gwickwire, you made the mistake earlier of saying "in the real world". I don't think you see quite how silly this discussion would seem to anyone who works collaboratively "in the real world". In the real world, you usually know who people are, what their credentials are, and have a good sense of whether or not you are working toward the same goal. They don't hide behind silly names. They don't try to have you removed from the room if you ask questions about their background in a subject. They don't switch nametags and pretend to be a different person. They don't pretend to have credentials, expertise, or skills that they haven't earned. Ok, I take that one back - they do that, but not nearly as often as they do online. And, in the real world, people sometimes say some very blunt things about the people with whom they collaborate (although not always to their face). Perhaps one day you will have a chance to see what "the real world" is like. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 23:45, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

The reason why people like to keep their anonymity online is two-fold. Yes, part of the reason is that people like to be more of a jerk online or otherwise act differently than they would in the real world and don't want those two to be connected. However, the second half of the reason deals with the fact that there are number of groups and individuals online that take pleasure in harassing and otherwise harming people, whether that means literally or harming some aspect of their life. Some sub-groups of Anonymous are examples of this, as are others, so it is to the benefit of people to not have their personal information revealed, especially if its being used in a threatening manner. Silverseren 23:50, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

The internet is full of search portals which xref your details. Anonymity online is not possible unless you are very careful, and even then you are bound to make slips. John lilburne (talk) 00:15, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

I understand why people remain anonymous online, but that wasn't my point. Gwickwire invoked "the real world" in a discussion about something that would only make sense within Misplaced Pages (and even here there are many people who find the extent of it a bit silly). I could put my real name, address, and phone number on my user page on Wikimedia Commons and you would be violating WP:OUTING by repeating that information here. Try explaining that to one of your friends who isn't a WP editor. Try explaining to them that WP editors are threatened by the idea that someone might know what their Twitter account is because they plugged the WP username into Google. Not that they posted this information, but just that they claimed to know it. Do you think they will find this situation reasonable? I'm not arguing that our policy on outing should be ignored, but I think it is used more often to protect a flase sense of security rather than to prevent anything approaching harassment. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 00:17, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

I can agree with that, but how does it relate to the current situation and the subject of this thread? This isn't an incidence of mere referencing someone's name, but a full blown doxing that is meant to be malicious and was used as a threat. Furthermore, just by putting your name somewhere doesn't mean that it is appropriate for someone else to use your name and then look up everything they can about you (phone number and address, ect.) to use against you. And what was linked to in the recent situation was not meant as a mere referencing, but a link that was meant to further publicize and get more people to know about the personal information of someone's life in a negative sense. Silverseren 00:29, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

I'm no longer sure what incident you are talking about, but that's fine because I was just trying to inject some reality into an otherwise reality-free discussion. This thread isn't going to bring about any change in policy or blacklisting of any sites but I thought perhaps you or Gwickwire might be able to take a step back and look at how silly this would seem to someone not immersed in WP. I guess not. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 00:41, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict × with below)No, I'm going to say that violating a user's right to privacy based on some things they can't control (I can't control if the White Pages has my address, nor others my telephone number), regardless of what they may have chosen to place on Wiki, is wrong. It's not silly, I'm pretty sure anyone else would agree that it's wrong to take away the privacy over a stupid argument over a technical flag someone lost on a website (Kevin's desysopping). It's not just that. It's the massive coordination thereof between the users of Wikipediocracy in creating now two harassment accounts against me, and more against others. This site would be great, hell I'd support it as a criticism only site, however it's become the method for users to get outings/doxings/harassment of onwiki editors who they disagree with. If the moderators on that site would stop this shit before it happens, then there'd be no problem. But the moderators see no problem with it (some of the moderators are indef banned here for the same reason). If the site continues to host this type of material, and users on it condone, actively ask for, and praise it, it cannot be allowed to coincide with Misplaced Pages, meaning editors/users of one must not be allowed on the other. gwickwire_editing 01:19, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

Hey, American Idol runner-up Lauren Alaina is one of those dirty outers / doxxers! Today in her Twitter feed, she tweeted "That awkward moment when you're sitting beside a tennis team at the airport and you're nosey so you google them lol." This was followed by a Twitter handle presumably belonging to the team in question. Ban her! Burn her! *Dan T.* (talk) 01:15, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

Break 2

Please note that Silver seren once participated on Wikipediocracy (see the January 2, 2013 blog post entitled "Jimmy Wales, Kazakhstan, Tony Blair and Misplaced Pages: A Timeline"), publishing a signed comment on the Wikipediocracy website, where he wrote, "I thought this was a really interesting timeline. I’m fully behind Andreas on this one." His statement of support shows that he is an integral believer in the Wikipediocracy initiative, and so perhaps it is time for Silver seren to sip some of his own medicine through that "last straw" of his? -- 2001:558:1400:10:F522:6371:95F9:AAC3 (talk) 17:35, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Hi, User:Thekohser! Yeah, I made a comment on that blog post, saying I was in support of Andreas' opinion on Kazakhstan, as I dislike the WMF's involvement with the country. That doesn't mean I at all support anything else or anyone else on Wikipediocracy and I only supported Andreas for that one thing, there's plenty of other things that Andreas has done or spoken about that I very much opposed. I don't think supporting one editor's opinion in one instance has anything to do with supporting Wikipediocracy. Silverseren 18:21, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

I guess your mind will be blown when you learn that User:Thekohser actually first implemented that timeline in wiki format and was one of the key contributors to the timeline along with Andreas. So, you are "fully behind" Thekohser, but you didn't even know it. You must want to cry, there's so much cognitive dissonance going on in your head right now, I'm sure. -- 2001:558:1400:10:F522:6371:95F9:AAC3 (talk) 21:33, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

...okaaaay. When I said fully behind Andreas, I meant the whole thing with Andreas confronting Jimbo about it and all that stuff. Seriously though, you have to be Thekohser, I can't see Eric or Peter fawning this much over him. Or it would be really sad if they were. Silverseren 21:44, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages supports IPV6 addresses now? Neat! *Dan T.* (talk) 22:23, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Indeed. It's actually supported it for quite a while. Though I do think it makes it slightly harder to tell the difference between two IPs or more if you're in a discussion. Silverseren 22:36, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

• So say this proposal did gain some traction; would there be support for enforcement of Wikpedia policy in the opposite direction? That external forum editors, regardless of their on-wikipedia status, would be able to seek redress for Demiurge's allusions to knife-wielding violence, or Seren's "there's a Kohs behind every corner" fishing expeditions, and so on? Tarc (talk) 01:47, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
  • You're asking if we'd start enforcing Misplaced Pages policy on Misplaced Pages? WP:ANI and WP:RFC/U are <-- thataway if you're wondering. If you're asking if we'll start enforcing forum policy here, no, that's not what this proposal is about. This isn't saying that we're enforcing Misplaced Pages policy on the forum. We're saying we will enforce Misplaced Pages policy on the editors of Misplaced Pages, just now we'd be saying they can't do the worst policy violations (outing, harassment, etc.) offwiki, or they'll not be allowed to edit onwiki anymore. gwickwire_editing 01:50, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
    • I think your understanding of what we're actually discussing here is a bit...lacking. Seren's premise is that the Wikipediocracy/Wikipedia userbase is so intertwined that Misplaced Pages editors who go there to do/say things should be held accountable of the things they do/say run afoul of Misplaced Pages policy. I am positing that if that is to be considered, then the application of Misplaced Pages policy should go both ways. For a very, very long time, Misplaced Pages editors have been allowed to slur, denigrate, and harass Wikipediocracy members, many of whom are not even able to be here to present a defense. So, my suggestion is that that slurring, denigration, and harassment would also be subject to sanction . If Demiurge1000 went around the Misplaced Pages accusing other editors of being knife-wielding degenerates (as noted in link above), then he would be sanctioned according to this project's policies. If we went forward with this proposal of Seren's, IMO it'd be only fair to be able to sanction the likes of Demiurge1000 for aiming those statements at non-Misplaced Pages people, no? I hope this clears up your confusion. Tarc (talk) 03:16, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
      • First, a majority of editors involved here don't have the power to block people at WO for comments made here. However, I'm all in favor of WO enforcing it's (seemingly nonexistant) conduct rules on things people do here. If they wish to ban Demiurge from their site, go for it. However, you also have to realize that some of your buddies on WO, namely Kevin and Marek have engaged in some pretty uncivil comments onwiki as well. Basically, what we want, is that editors here can't go to WO and break our rules here when it comes to other editors. We aren't saying that all personal attacks on WO would warrant a block here, only when a editor on WP attacks another editor on WP and neither of them are blocked indefinitely, they would receive the same penalties as they would if it were on wiki. gwickwire_editing 03:28, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
        • Y'know, sometimes people deploy the "none of what you said is relevant to what we're talking about" rhetorical device in a debate as a simplistic means of deflection. But I am saying right now, with all literalness and seriousness, you really' have no idea what you're talking about. No one has, at any time, discussed on-Wikipediocracy bans or sanctions of Misplaced Pages users. Yes, you want for "editors here can't go to WO and break our rules here when it comes to other editors". I get that. What I said above is that if that were enforced, then Misplaced Pages editors here who are uncivil here towards Wikipediocracy people who are not here be subject to the rules as well. IMO, you are becoming a bit unglued at the seams over all this, and lashing out in this manner comes across as a bit...overly-emotional. Perhaps a proverbial cup of tea is in order. Tarc (talk) 04:01, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
          • Here's the thing. You asked something about blah blah policy enforcing the other way. This is about enforcing Misplaced Pages policy on Misplaced Pages editors, nothing new. Except, now we'd enforce that policy on editors regardless of where on the internets it is. It is not good that users can just go to Wikipediocracy or "randomblog" or somewhere else, out people, make completely unfounded claims and personal attacks against other editors and get away with it as if nothing happened. We do not live in a bubble here at Misplaced Pages, and those who come in and out of Misplaced Pages need to have the same code of conduct regarding their fellow editors as they do here everywhere. We aren't saying if User A on WP is user A on WO and they make a personal attack against user B on WO who doesn't edit here, they get blocked. Only if both of the people involved are editors on Misplaced Pages, then it's blockable. This makes sense, because people are going to Wikipediocracy in order to violate WP:NPA, WP:OUT, and WP:CIVIL against other editors, and that's wrong. gwickwire_editing 20:39, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
            • A fresh day and you still don't really get it. Pity. You don't get to erect civility restrictions and expect them to only be enforced in one direction. Your buddy Demiurge didn't get that either, as he currently sits out a 30-day timeout for repetitive "boxcutter" remarks, among other gems. Tarc (talk) 20:53, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

• • I never told you this Tarc but I have a couple of websites that are of interest to wikipedians like Seren and his mates. They have memorable IP addresses and from time to time they come to one or other of the sites on a Google search for some wikipedian's name. Yours is a favourite for them. How do I know? Well because after one has been there shortly afterwards another arrives, and Seren will post information on talk pages of one of the ARS members. All pretty silly, and funny as fuck. John lilburne (talk) 09:03, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

• Isn't dramah fun? Get back to work, you lazy fucks!!! Carrite (talk) 03:06, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

• Hey, Carrite. How many people is that now? 6? 7? Really come out in force when the site is "threatened", huh? Anyways, I was thinking about making an article on Hastatic order tomorrow, wanna help out? Not really my usual type of article, being a physics topic and i'm a biology major, but I was thinking on just putting the basic framework down with all the references being available and then getting someone from Wikiproject Physics to make any necessary corrections. Interested? Silverseren 08:20, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

• SS, do you honestly think there is traction for WP:BADSITES? That would be incorrect. What possible benefit is there from this thread, other than entertainment for pro and con factions squabbling over nothing? Outing is already banned, for better or worse (when you have an idea how to square the circle of taking action against COI editing without identifying real life identities, please do let us know!). Linking to outing is already banned. What more is there to be gained other than some sanctimonious squawking by one side and some insolent scoffing by the other? I guess that's fun, as this massive thread indicates, but how does that advance WP? As for your kind offer to work on Hastatic order, gotta give that a miss, I've gotta do some real life work selling shoes tomorrow. Which reminds me, I need to hit the shower to get ready now! Carrite (talk) 18:22, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

Proposal

I think going forward with the most basic proposition in the discussion above is the best method for now. Considering recent events with Wikipediocracy and its repeated incidences of outing/doxing editors of Misplaced Pages and the fact that linking to off-site doxing and harassment is forbidden by policy, it seems straightforward to propose that links to the Wikipediocracy site be blacklisted as to prevent both purposeful and accidental links to outing material and the blocks and drama that result from this. If no one can link to it, then it reduces the possibility of incidents by a significant amount. In short, I propose that links to Wikipediocracy be added to the URL blacklist. Silverseren 20:37, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

I would also request that Wikipediocracy members not vote in this section because I would like to get the opinion of editors unrelated to the site. Or, if you feel you must vote/comment/whatever in this section, please express up front the fact that you are a member of the site, as would be expected for anyone with a COI who is involved in such a discussion. Thank you. Silverseren 20:37, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

• In light of recent events, I would like everyone to know that I have never posted on Wikipediocracy, nor am involved in the site in any way. Do with this information what you will. I feel that we need to go further, that users who make personal attacks on WO are blocked here, as if they had made them onwiki. See below. gwickwire_editing 21:05, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose - Blacklisting URLs is a mechanism meant to curtail linking to inappropriate websites in article-space, not as a backdoor to the failed/rejected WP:BADSITES schlock. There is no actual reason given for this suggestion that doesn't rest, either covertly or overtly, in "I don't like it" grounds. Tarc (talk) 22:03, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Before you talk about failed, please see WP:CCC. Consensus can change, and that's all that we're trying to do, is determine the consensus as of now. If you're not going to cite policy for opposing, please don't oppose, or at least know that anyone who closes this should discount anyone who says "it's been failed before" responses without any current policy basis for opposition. gwickwire_editing 22:10, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
    • I'm well-aware of how consensus works around here, Mr. Joined-in-2011, thanks. There are certain policies, rules, and accepted practices and such from Misplaced Pages past that we are simply better off without, i.e. once upon a time "keep, this article is awesome!" was a perfectly valid argument to make at WP:AFD. Similarly, the Badsite junk stems from the dark days when the cabal saw boogeymen around every corner, and sought to shield themselves from criticism from the Misplaced Pages Review. This is a fear mentality that we do not need to revive. Tarc (talk) 22:26, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
      • Since you're well-aware of how consensus works, how about you start citing policy instead of saying "It failed before, and I still don't like it"? gwickwire_editing 22:37, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
        • Strawman, much? I do not oppose this farce of a proposal simply because it reflects an old, failed policy; I oppose it because I feel it is a bad idea proposed in extreme bad faith. Editors like Silver Seren, like Russavia...and increasingly, like you...don't like a spotlight shined on their misdeeds. It is only natural that you wish to silence the criticism. I get that. But you really don't have much of a prayer of success here I'm afraid. That's just reality. Tarc (talk) 00:29, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

• First off, COI thing. Second off, I gave a pretty clear reason, that linking to off-site harassment and especially outing/doxing is prohibited by policy. And since that is primarily what Wikipediocracy is composed of and recent incidents have resulted in blocks because of the linking, blacklisting the URL is the best method to follow the policy and prevent purposeful and accidental linking to such material. Silverseren 22:12, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

• I purposefully ignored your "COI" nonsense, but then I think you knew that already. Second, that is not what the site is primarily composed of. If a topic over there did truly contain harassing material, then the removal of a link to that specific topic is already allowed via Misplaced Pages:Linking to external harassment. There is no need to block the entire site; you're grasping about for a missile in order to swat a fly. Tarc (talk) 22:26, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

• When the main purpose of the site is to create change via harassment, I think you can easily say that blocking the URL is the best option. Silverseren 22:34, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

• Your opinion of the "main purpose" is quite divorced from reality, unfortunately. Tarc (talk) 00:29, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

• Not when several of the banned editors on Wikipediocracy have stated that the only way they think they can change Misplaced Pages is to harass people and force things to change. That's the point of the private wiki they have with all the private information they could possibly find on Wikipedians, right? I wonder if there will be a page added on me now, since i'm trying to "attack" the site and all. Silverseren 00:42, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

• That a few members allegedly (bit of an exaggeration IMO) feel that way does not impugn everyone else that may be a member, though. Any more than the acts of Beta M impugn the reputation of Commons as a whole. Right? As for private wikis, I have always thought that vaunted treasure trove is a bit overhyped. I doubt they have anything on you that isn't already known elsewhere. Tarc (talk) 01:32, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

• True, you can blame ED for that one. But that's not the point. The collection of such info is meant to then be used in the future as an attack or threat, as a fair amount of it has already been used a such. And I don't think the excuse of "we're just normal members going along with it" is much of an excuse when the mods of the site are doing these sorts of things openly in the threads that the members are posting in. Silverseren 01:44, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

• Support after more info Moxy (talk) 22:34, 9 March 2013 (UTC) - Neutral need more info - Very interesting this Wikipediocracy site. Questions - How old is the site and do the 293 registered users really posse a threat to the project as a whole? How mant times do we link to the site and in what context. To be honest... I am actually glad to see that disgruntled ex contributors have a place to vent over doing it here. Moxy (talk) 22:15, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Well, they've outed many an editor through their time, and users here go there and make blatant personal attacks against other editors, without reprimand because they are "offwiki". They pose a threat in that they coordinate harassment in order to try to silence editors here who they disagree with.. There's a problem :) I'm fine with a venting/criticism site, but when it goes to the WP:NPA level on editors here, and outs and attempts to silence editors, that's an issue. gwickwire_editing 22:20, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

Very interesting points - Wikipediocracy is not affiliated with Misplaced Pages right? So why is what they do any different then say a site like the http://thedirty.com/. Simply don't see how blacklisting it would help - unless the outing is being liked to by way of Misplaced Pages itself. I see this has happened a few times-but is it a big problem? or wold there be more backlash then there would be a benefit for doing this.Moxy (talk) 22:27, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

The only backlash would be from members of the site itself. But when that includes in addition to current editors also long standing banned sockpuppetteers who continue to sockpuppet, I don't think that opinion is all that important. And the site is only a year old, with a comparably high amount of incidents like this occurring. One could say, in Misplaced Pages terms, the heat-to-light ratio of the site is very skewed to the former, with only small amount of good criticism coming out in comparison to the harassment and othe rissues. Silverseren 22:32, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

I've been keeping a list of outings and threats and such. It is woefully uncomplete though, but still quite prolific. Most of the site is involved in harassing people that do positive things for Misplaced Pages or make statements that they dislike, whether this be Misplaced Pages editors or journalists. For Misplaced Pages editors, this also includes outing/doxing people and then threatening them with the information to get them to stop being involved in Misplaced Pages discussions. Also, you could say that there is a lot of group canvassing that occurs because of this. The recent incident that has gone all the way to Arbcom involved them outing a Misplaced Pages editor as a main part of their blog (including a huge amount of information on the person's personal life and their past) and then some of their members linked to it here on-wiki and it's caused a lot of controversy. Blacklisting their url would make it so linking to such outing isn't possible, so the policy regarding that won't be able to be violated. Silverseren 22:25, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

Did not see this before I posted above - ok that sounds like a problem. Better safe then sorry with our editors private lives. Protecting our editors should be a no brainier.Moxy (talk)

• Oppose as more BADSITES nonsense (see my essay). It's a gross abuse of the spam filter to use it to squelch criticism and maintain a walled garden where people here have their tender feelings protected from outside people who might not like them. As for the "COI stuff", I'm not currently a registered user on Wikipediocracy, but that doesn't mean I won't register in the future as I did on Misplaced Pages Review back in the day; I like to keep up on all sides of all disputes. *Dan T.* (talk) 22:39, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

• Except this has nothing to do with criticism. If the site was only about criticism on Misplaced Pages's practices and actions, then there wouldn't be a problem. The issue is that practically all of the time, the "criticism" devolves into insults against a certain person or multiple people, then they start doxing people, then the threats come out. Or perhaps its just general canvassing between each other that leads to harassment of the person on-wiki. None of this has to do with criticism. Silverseren 22:42, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

Everybody thinks the current moral panic they're heated up about is an exception to general principles of free speech, individual liberty, etc., because This Time It's Different... This Is Really Evil, Unlike the Other Dozens of Times Things have Been Called Evil and Turned Out To Be Just Fine. It's interesting to see comments here about how WO doesn't have the kind of legitimate criticism WR had in its heyday, given that in that time WR was presented by BADSITES advocates as evil incarnate. *Dan T.* (talk) 22:50, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

WR still had just as many issues with outing/doxing and the like. I've got a lot of that all recorded as well in my list. That doesn't change the fact that there was still a lot more of a focus on legitimate criticism. If WR hadn't died, this proposal would likely apply just as much to it. Though, this has nothing to do with my comment and you're just trying to divert the topic to WR comparisons. Silverseren 22:55, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

WR isn't technically "dead", though it's on life support and probably ought to be put to sleep at this point. And the whole panic about outing/doxing and how not being really draconian about stopping links to it will promote harassment of Wikipedians seems to rest on the dubious idea that whatever people out there might be inclined to harass people in real life once they find out their personal info online are active on Misplaced Pages but not on any of the external criticism sites, and don't know how to use Google either, so they'd only find out the dangerous info if somebody links to it here. *Dan T.* (talk) 23:18, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

So your argument is that we shouldn't block links to the harassment and doxing because other people on the internet can just find the information themselves? That's a horrible argument. Silverseren 00:44, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose this silly, thinly veiled attempt at sneaking in WP:BADSITES back. Similar proposal was rejected even at Commons IIRC.Volunteer Marek 01:15, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

• Please mention COI, as I asked. And, as was noted above by gwickwire, WP:CCC certainly applies. Though I do have to ask, how many Wikipediocracy members were involved in the other proposals? Silverseren 01:31, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

• What COI? I have none. Why don't you mention your COI - you tried hanging out at WR/WO, got into some silly spat with someone there, most people there took the other person's side, you left in a huff and you've been on this anti-WO crusade ever since. That's pretty clear COI, as in "beating a dead horse and pursuing a petty grudge".Volunteer Marek 03:00, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

• Sorry, you edit Wikipediocracy, and admitted below to making rude and uncivil comments there. That's a COI. gwickwire_editing 03:02, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

• Wait, so you're seriously saying that you have no COI, but I do? That's pretty hilarious. I assume you're talking about Selina? If you'd been paying attention, you would have noticed that I pretty much stopped being involved in WR long before that, because I realized there was no point in arguing with you guys, because it wasn't about trying to make Misplaced Pages better through criticism, it was just about denigrating it. Silverseren 04:04, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose Very few links from Wikipediocracy would actually contain outing or any other harassment. Consider this thread as an example of the kind of recent policy-compliant criticism that would be blocked from view by this proposal.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 01:17, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

• Please mention COI, like I asked. Sadly, picking and choosing links isn't much of an option. Furthermore, there isn't a relevant need to allow links to the policy-complient criticism. It can be discussed on-wiki without the need of a link. The benefit of blacklisting the URL to prevent linking to harassment and outing/doxing far outweighs any negatives that will result from any policy-compliant threads on Wikipediocracy. Silverseren 01:31, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

• There is no relevant need to block links to policy-compliant criticism either. It would be far more cumbersome to force editors to summarize some ongoing discussion elsewhere than to simply allow them to link to it.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 01:37, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

• But, again, the benefit of blocking the ability to link to outing/doxing and other such material far outweighs that, considering that such material is even being posted on the general blog now. Silverseren 01:40, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

• Comment. <no-wiki>*chortle*</no-wiki> There are all the tinyurl, twiturl, and other redirects are you going to ban all of those? Even if you did, a wordpress blog page takes but a moment to setup and from there one can simply redirect to the BADSITE page, going to ban all wordpress pages? Twitter accounts are also moments away from creation, link goes in tweet, going to ban links to twitter. And the list goes on, and on. John lilburne (talk) 13:46, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

  This. If an editor here posts a link to something objectionable, we have mechanisms in place already to address it; remove or oversight the link, sanction the editor. This is like the gun rights debate; the gun-grabbers think that heaping new laws on top of existing ones will somehow make the situation better, when there are already laws on the books are that insufficiently enforced. Cla68 posted a link to the site, the link was suppressed and Cla blocked. Obviously there is quite a row over whether that was the correct call to make, but the point is is that the system works. Tarc (talk) 14:34, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

The Council of Constance declared Wycliffe (on 4 May 1415) a heretic and under the ban of the Church. It was decreed that his books be burned and his remains be exhumed. The exhumation was carried out in 1428 when, at the command of Pope Martin V, his remains were dug up, burned, and the ashes cast into the River Swift, which flows through Lutterworth.

ça change, plus c'est la même chose John lilburne (talk) 15:55, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

• Strong Support - As someone who was personally harassed by some members of WO, I would strongly support adding the site to the spam blacklist. For those unaware of the situation, some members of WO discovered who my employer was at the time and threatened to contact them in an attempt to get me fired. Had the situation not resolved itself the way it did, I was fully prepared to quit editing Misplaced Pages indefinitely. This type of treatment is not what I signed up for, nor do I believe that I (or anyone else, regardless of their actions) deserved it. Since it seems that some (not all) of their members are interested in regularly outing/harassing WP editors, preventing links to that harassment is the least we can do, and is a no-brainer solution.

There is a policy basis for this action. WP:LINKLOVE is a guideline that prohibits linking to harassment on external sites. And, WP:BLACK describes how the spam blacklist is to be used, and it clearly shows it is not just for spam links (with "Violation of Privacy" being one category of reasons to block an external site). Adding WO to the blacklist is not censorship. It doesn't prevent them from continuing their discussions on their forum. It doesn't threaten them with on-wiki punishment for what they write on their forum. It simply prevents them from publicizing their forum on this site. While the majority of content on WO is probably not problematic, if it can be shown that some of their users regularly violate the privacy of WP editors, then blacklisting is an entirely appropriate action. The site was blacklisted on Commons for awhile. And frankly, I don't think the WP community would be losing much if we were somewhat less aware of their site. Misplaced Pages is not advertising, so there is no reason that we need to continue being a vehicle to promote and draw attention to their site. ‑Scottywong| chatter _ 16:01, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

I would say "citation-needed" for claims like that they tried to get you fired, but you run into the problem that providing same would require violating the neo-BADSITES principle against linking there... a big catch-22. *Dan T.* (talk) 16:38, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

It's not difficult to find if you search through their forum, and I assure you it's real. One of them emailed me at my work address. Not cool. ‑Scottywong| yak _ 01:18, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

I believe I still have screenshots of the threat. I'll have to go check. Silverseren 19:09, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

• So that means when China blocks Misplaced Pages it isn't really censorship. It's also nice to know that it is impossible for someone to advertise Wikipediocracy without being able to link to it.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 17:10, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

• I do like the surreptitious avoidance of discussing the issue of the threat and everything, but then focusing on the unimportant part of his comment. That was very subtle of you. Silverseren 19:12, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

• Actually, I have no problem addressing his comment about a threat. The context, is that another poster presented evidence that Scotty created an article on his employer (an article Scotty apparently had deleted in response) and advertised services as a paid editor on another site, with others noting a then-ongoing situation where Scotty was trying to have another editor's userpage deleted for offering services as a paid editor. Vigilant did then make a comment suggesting that "someone" might contact Scotty's employer about him apparently editing during work hours. I doubt that would get him fired if Vigilant had been seriously suggesting it and it was true (presuming Scotty still does his work), but even then several people criticized Vigilant in that thread for making such a comment.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 20:02, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
• It also seems that Vigilant backed off of his oppositional stance because of some cordial conversation Scotty had with Gregory Kohs.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 20:12, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

• You say it so casually. I'm sure that if it happened to you, you'd have a different perspective on it. No site should allow such harassment, and Misplaced Pages should not allow people to link to it (which Cla68 tried to do numerous times on my talk page, even after I told him to stop... I'm not surprised about his recent block for essentially the same behavior). ‑Scottywong| gossip _ 01:21, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

• I have dealt with my fair share of threats and have had to deal with people speculating about my identity when I prefer to keep it a secret. No one has figured it out without me telling them so I haven't dealt with something quite like what you experienced, but some people who have threatened me knew me and thus would have been able to act on their threats.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 03:37, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

• Weak-ish oppose. Oppose because I don't really think Wikipediocracy is the irredeemably evil thing that a lot of people claim. I mean, yes, there's a lot of garbage there, just like every other site on the Internet (naturally, Misplaced Pages itself is no exception). But some of the things that are talked about there are actually pretty legitimate, interesting things to consider, if you take the time to think about it. Yes, outing is A Bad Thing (though the extent to which the Russavia thing was outing is a debate I'll not enter), but I don't think it's worth banning any mention of the site forever. "Weak-ish" because, as proposed, this is not in fact banning any mention of the site forever. If it's just direct links to Wikipediocracy that we're talking about (which is what the spam blacklist would do), then I don't really see what difference it makes. As long as that isn't extended to "any mention of Wikipediocracy is not allowed", I guess I can live with that. Writ Keeper (t + c) 17:25, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

• This is only about preventing links to the site, not about banning mentioning the site. The whole point is to follow the Linking to off-site harassment and outing policies. Especially since practically any link made on-wiki to the site is either to point at something like that or to point at something on the site that is meant to cause drama. Silverseren 19:21, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose - Badsites is a dumb idea. Protections against outing already exist. Misplaced Pages is not censored. Carrite (talk) 18:23, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

• C'mon, Carrite, COI thing. Is Dan really going to be the only one to announce his COI, when he has quite a bit less since he was only involved in WR in the past? Silverseren 19:14, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

Given the thread on WO that announces this proposal (a.k.a. off-wiki canvassing), it's not surprising to see numerous opposes from regular WO members. I won't link to thread for a number of reasons, one of which being that it includes one regular[REDACTED] editor referring to another editor as a "douche". ‑Scottywong| verbalize _ 01:16, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

all off-wiki canvassing should be done on irc, so that no record or log of the canvassing may be posted. and i wouldn't call Snotty a "douche". "hypocrite" is more accurate. 174.141.213.47 (talk) 11:00, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

+1. It is natural that there is a thread about this petulant proposal at Wikipediocracy, since threads on stupid content and questionable actions at Misplaced Pages is what they do. One can't call the existence of a Wikipediocracy thread "canvassing" with a straight face, since more Wikipedians stalk that site than Misplaced Pages Critics post at it. That's a true fact, isn't it SS? Isn't it, Scotty? Carrite (talk) 15:52, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

It might be true, although I certainly don't waste very much of my time reading anything there, if that's what you're implying. Also, referring to this thread as "stupid content" is not terribly polite nor is it necessary. I don't think it's stupid or questionable. ‑Scottywong| squeal _ 01:05, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose unworkable and foolish idea (as anyone familiar with my involvement in overturning the blacklisting on Commons last year might guess; see commons:Commons:Requests_for_comment/offsite_discussions). It's a blunt technical measure which is easily circumvented, and it's also wrong in principle (see Commons discussion). NB I've posted on Wikipediocracy, though I don't consider it a COI in my case as it's merely reactive to others' comments, but YMMV. Rd232 21:39, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Proposal 2

The blocking policy is modified to include the following points:

• This policy applies both between two editors onwiki, and two editors offwiki, when the offwiki conduct is made available to ArbCom in an e-mail or case.
• Users who perform a blockable offense offwiki will be blocked the same as if it was onwiki.
• The time for blocks as a result of offwiki conduct which is deemed inappropriate will be the same as if the block was based on onwiki conduct.
• These offwiki statements will be considered, in deciding a block, as if they were made with the same users onwiki.

--

• Support as proposer, I'll make changes if you feel necessary. gwickwire_editing 21:05, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

• Is this meant to be an extension or I guess, a more complete explanation of the Off-wiki Harassment policy section? Silverseren 21:11, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
• Nope, this is meant to go into WP:BLOCK. But we should probably, if this passes, find some way to revise that page as well, to include what would be the new blocking policy re: offwiki harassment, etc. gwickwire_editing 21:13, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose. Misplaced Pages shouldn't be extending the "long arm" of its policies to cover things that are outside its jurisdiction. Also, the "banned user" exception is contrary to the principles of Misplaced Pages policy, where such things as "no personal attacks", etc., are supposed to apply to attacks against banned users as well as normal ones. You seem to want a special exception to have free rein to beat banned users while they're down, while being able to take action such as extending and reinstating bans if any of them fight back. *Dan T.* (talk) 22:45, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
  • No, the whole point of this is that we are enforcing[REDACTED] policy where both involved are editors, regardless of where it happens. I shouldn't be able to just go to Wikipediocracy and put "Dtobias is a mother fucking cuntbag idiot with bitch ass parents who edits from his basement on an old couch because he doesn't have a job" or anything like that (disclaimer, was only an example, I don't think any of those things about you), and it be okay because it was offwiki. The banned user exemption is for users like certain banned users who are on other sites who deserve some criticism. But I'll remove that, since you make a good point. gwickwire_editing 22:51, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
    • There's plenty of non-banned users who deserve criticism too, and given how strenuously you claim that your proposals aren't designed to muzzle criticism, it's interesting that you don't seem to believe this when it comes to criticisms you yourself wish to make against the disfavored. *Dan T.* (talk) 23:14, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
      • We aren't muzzling criticism, if you'd notice I edited the proposal accordingly. Here's the thing. Criticism is different in many ways than the personal attacks, harassment, and outing going on at Wikipediocracy. gwickwire_editing 00:35, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose simple overstepping of authority. Tarc (talk) 00:30, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
  • We have authority over Misplaced Pages editors being able to edit this site. Nuff said. gwickwire_editing 00:35, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose Aside from the obvious concern about joe jobs where someone impersonates another editor off-wiki to get them in trouble, someone's conduct off of this site is only relevant when it is having an impact on-wiki. Policy and sanctions are about preventing disruption here and that is not what this proposal would achieve.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 01:10, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Sorry, but it's not disruptive when users are threatened enough offwiki by other editors they feel silenced? Wow, you seriously need to rethink your strategy (by the way, TDA and Tarc both have a presence on the site in question, so it's obvious they'd oppose this). gwickwire_editing 01:12, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

• Did I say that? Pretty sure I didn't say that. If someone is harassing or threatening an editor to try and have on effect on-wiki and that person is still editing here, they should be subject to sanctions so as to minimize disruption and just to generally be decent. Saying that Misplaced Pages should force people to obey all of Misplaced Pages's policies wherever they interact with other editors is another thing entirely. Down that path lies madness.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 01:33, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

• You completely contradicted yourself. "they should be subject to sanctions", but "madness"? We're only asking the first thing! gwickwire_editing 02:56, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

• That is not a contradiction. There is a world of difference between saying that blatant harassment or say death threats directed at editors from off-wiki should be cause for sanctions, it already is cause for them, and suggesting that any instance of incivility directed at another editor should be treated as though it were said here. If two people who edit here are arguing on WO about something and one of them gets all in a tizzy and posts, "Yeah! Well, fuuuck you!" they shouldn't get blocked here for that.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 03:08, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose. Plain silly.Volunteer Marek 01:16, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
• No. There is enough of a risk in admins playing "Misplaced Pages cop". We don't need to crown ourselves "entire Internet cop", too. Gwickwire: you're concerned about outing. I get that. I understand it. Don't you see how this incentivizes outing? If we can sanction people onwiki for actions they do offwiki, then all of a sudden people have a(nother?) reason to make that connection. Another reason for people to go digging. Not to mention the ease with which a person can be joe jobbed, and the virtual impossibility of defending oneself against a reasonably-executed joe job. Not to mention the fact that it's just plain not our business. This is really just a bad idea. and hey, I'm an admin and a non-Wikipediocracy poster! Writ Keeper (t + c) 04:50, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

• I think blacklisting the URL will be good enough to fix the issues of outing for now. If more incidents occur, then we can see what other steps should be taken, but removing their ability to post links to the site will help stop the spread of such outing and also remove a lot of the attention that they crave and express by always posting links to the site on noticeboards here and on Jimbo's talk page to start up drama. Silverseren 05:34, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

• I cannot see that blacklisting is helpful. In 2012 a site-banned user posted on wikipediocracy offering to provide private info to a specific wikipediocracy member to use on-wiki. That offer was taken up. The sourcing of that info was later indicated on-wiki through an external link. (It could equally well have been passed on in private.) Mathsci (talk) 05:54, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

• The sourcing of it doesn't need to be posted publicly on-wiki. It can just as easily be emailed to Arbcom or whomever is in charge of the case in question. In almost all situations related to outing on the site, it would be better not to post a link publicly on the wiki, since you don't want to actually link to the outing. So I don't see blacklisting the URL interfering with a situation as you've described. Silverseren 06:07, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

• It did not involve outing. Mathsci (talk) 06:13, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

• Okay? That doesn't change the fact that there is no need to post it on-wiki. And, as i've said to TDA, the benefits of blacklisting the URL and the rampant outing/doxing and harassment far outweighs any negatives from isolated incidents of usefulness. Especially since linking is not required in those incidents. Silverseren 06:27, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose - Ridiculous idea. Real life is not censored. Go ahead and badger some more, SS... Carrite (talk) 15:47, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose - we could have long philosophical debates about the validity of the idea, but since it's pretty well unworkable (links between Misplaced Pages and Wikipediocracy accounts are neither required nor verifiable; and the minute this became policy, nobody would post Bad Things on Wikipediocracy under their WP-linked name), let's just put this in the bin and move on. Rd232 21:43, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Proposal 3

Do nothing. There is nothing that can be done, and we should do it. Rd232 21:55, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

• But they should Do Something about it... and the other proposals are Something, so they have to Do Them!!!! Oh, well... if nothing is better than those other proposals, then they should do nothing. Support. *Dan T.* (talk) 00:17, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
  • (But if it's also true that those other proposals are better than nothing, then you've got an infinite loop and the whole system will self-destruct as if Captain Kirk gave it a logical paradox.) *Dan T.* (talk) 00:18, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

Evidence

I've been told by a steward, as well as multiple other users that this is okay to post. Note the name of the blog and username are completely random. This doesn't include outing, and is only the tip of the iceberg. As I said in the post, it is all by Misplaced Pages editors, against Misplaced Pages editors, but just not "onwiki". Still think we need to do nothing? gwickwire_editing 02:54, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

Heh, some of those are mine.Volunteer Marek 02:56, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

Wow, thanks for admitting it! gwickwire_editing 02:58, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

Why wouldn't I? There's nothing wrong with it except in your own imagination. Most (not all) of that stuff could even be said on Wiki (like the opinion that currently we have the "dumbest ArbCom yet") and the parts that couldn't aren't bad either, just strongly worded. Volunteer Marek 03:06, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

The fact that you can't see the pattern of rudeness and incivility there is appalling. I put it here for others to judge however, and let's let them do so without fear of being harassed. gwickwire_editing 03:07, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

And oh yea, you realize that "Worm Turned" is a part of a user's username not an insult? Volunteer Marek 03:08, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

I didn't realize that he got his name changed to "Turned Worm", which sounds to me like a derogatory and insulting version of his current username, no. If you could link to his new username or CHU request, I'd appreciate it. gwickwire_editing 03:09, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

It's not important. The point is that most of the stuff you listed wouldn't be considered incivil even on Wiki. You're scare-mongering. There, is that "rude and impolite"? Volunteer Marek 03:18, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

Oh, so people are being rude and uncivil on some other site... Call in the cavalry! This must not be allowed to stand! Free speech is only for speech that doesn't hurt anybody's feelings! *Dan T.* (talk) 03:20, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

Worm That Turned and Turned Worm have the same potential to be derogatory and both are names that I have no issue with. I did not find the phrase insulting in the lease. Indeed, I think harshest thing said on WO about me was "aptly named worm", but the fact is, I've chosen this username for myself and I believe it has served me well. I prefer to have a diminutive as a username, to allow me to catch people off guard when I need to show that this worm has teeth Worm(talk) 11:44, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

I have a t-shirt that sums this up "You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted and then used against you." The comment "You could just call them abusers" is from me, but that's not the whole quote. My statement was "You could just call them abusers of the process." This was during a discussion over another poster using the Misplaced Pages term POV-pushers, and was specifically responding to a statement saying: "Until someone invents a new name for Misplaced Pages editors who abuse process in specific ways, we're stuck with terms like 'POV pusher'. Feel free to coin a phrase, please."--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 03:39, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

I didn't realize I didn't have that all copied. I'll strike through that one. Regardless, don't try to (unless I missed part of a quote because of Google's damn editing of blogger stuff) defend yourselves here, let the community decide. gwickwire_editing 03:42, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

You know, you're only proving the point that this whole thing is an attempt to muzzle criticism. *Dan T.* (talk) 04:04, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

Not criticism, muzzling personal attacks and other crap being flung around at Wikipediocracy which users think is okay just because it's offwiki, even though both persons involved (attacker and attacked) are editors here. gwickwire_editing 04:08, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

You are taking people's comments out of context and then tell them they shouldn't be defending themselves from your accusations, that is an obvious attempt to stifle criticism. In your latest examples you present two quotes separately ("Beyond pathetic." and "performance during all this has been utter crap"), taken from a comment Hex made about ArbCom's slow response time with the whole quote being: "Beyond pathetic. How can it be possible to become an arbitrator without realizing that not responding to emails about live situations will only make things worse? ArbCom's performance during all this has been utter crap."--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 05:24, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, but even with the context, calling the Arbitration Committee pathetic and utter crap is still rude, uncivil, and inappropriate. Just because they're in context doesn't change that. gwickwire_editing 06:24, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

You're trying to be the speech cop for the entire Internet, deciding what sorts of expression of opinion are valid and what should be suppressed. That's pathetic utter crap, up with which I will not put. *Dan T.* (talk) 06:28, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

It's also slow, clumsy, short-sighted, self-important and incompetent. Oops, have I gone off-message? — Hex (❝?!❞) 16:04, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

Anyone that cares: http://lovemuffinsisgret.blogspot.com/ more evidence, and I'm nowhere near done posting it all. gwickwire_editing 04:53, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

One can revel in the irony that you're the one in this thread who's putting up nasty stuff on an external site and linking to it here for the purpose of trying to get bad things done to people. *Dan T.* (talk) 05:17, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

Seems one of the comments is from Ched, who, as far as I know, doesn't post on Wikipediocracy. He may read it, but a lot of editors read it.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 05:35, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

I never said the most recent (third) post was WO editors only, just general incivility onwiki regarding this. The second post however, is completely one editor who I know for a fact edits WO. And I'm not putting up nasty stuff, I'm quoting it. There's a difference. gwickwire_editing 05:40, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

Love it, most of that last post is me. Unfortunately, by taking copies of words I wrote and republishing them without attribution, you are violating the terms of the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported License under which I submitted them to this site when clicking the "Save page" button. Therefore, I request that you either provide full attribution to all quotes of me by linking to the diffs of when I posted them (you must attribute the work in the manner specified by the author or licensor), or remove them immediately. I look forward to your prompt compliance. — Hex (❝?!❞) 16:11, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

Does that even apply to things not in an article? You can't exactly copyright things said in a discussion, that seems really silly. Silverseren 19:16, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

Well, items in discussions are not any more exempt from copyright law than items in articles, though in both places there is a concept of fair use that would probably permit brief excerpts for the purpose of commentary, but can be very fuzzy about exactly how brief they must be. Complying with copyright-license terms mandating links to the source of a quote, of course, is hampered by any blacklisting or BADSITES-ing of the source site. *Dan T.* (talk) 20:09, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

Gwickwire, I am going to assume that you are unable to see the irony of what you are doing with this blog. It is also possible that you do see the irony and you doing this as a joke, although that would seem out of character for you. Either way, it is pretty funny and I thank you for it. Let me quote something from the post that you linked: "I thought this (Redacted) guy was an adult". Since you were "told by a steward, as well as multiple other users" that it was ok to link to that, I am assuming that it is ok for me to post that here. By the way, would you mind identifying the steward and other users who told you this would be ok? I think if we applied the logic you and Silver seren are using, they might be facing some on-wiki sanctions for their participation in this. Yes, they didn't write that post -- you did -- but that's the logic you are applying to people who participate on Wikipediocracy, so fair is fair, right? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 18:41, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

Delicious carbuncle, I've redacted the name from your comment and deleted it from this page's history. I haven't heard anything official to confirm that that information is now public, so you're putting yourself at risk of being blocked or worse for outing. I hadn't noticed it on the page you linked to, but I would seriously suggest to Gwickwire that he remove it from there also. — Hex (❝?!❞) 19:02, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

Once again, the draconian policies about "outing" prove to be a tripwire that can catch anybody involving themselves in the murky waters of debating such policies and giving examples of their application. *Dan T.* (talk) 20:12, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

Hex, I am sure that "a steward, as well as multiple other users" would not counsel Gwickwire to create and link to material which violates our WP:OUTING policy, so I saw no reason to be concerned. All of the statements there are removed from their context and not linked to their sources, so there was no connection between the Misplaced Pages user name and the surname I quoted, but I thank you for your cautious approach. I fear Gwickwire is about to be hoisted from his own petard. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 21:20, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

See, there you've hit upon what the problem is with this whole blacklist ridiculousness. Say a steward actually did wave his/her magic wand and bless Mr. Gwickwire's blog on the 9th; the basis of such a decision would have been made on what information was in the blog at the time. So if on today's 11/3/13 entry he decided to post something nasty, would said "blessing" still be valid? No. This is why it is beyond retarded to suggest that an entire URL be blacklisted because one link to one part of it was allegedly violating outing rules. Tarc (talk) 12:58, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

WO and WR, good bad and ugly

OK, I hadn't really taken too many looks at the WO site since it started a year or so ago, being relatively inactive in anything Misplaced Pages-related these days. But once this current bit of drama got going, I looked its forums over, and found them fairly familiar in terms of being similar in tone and content to WR in its heyday, though perhaps with not quite as many totally off-the-wall loonies as that latter site sometimes had (which means that WO actually has a slightly higher "respectability level" than that other site, though they remain very similar in overall tone). WR is now pretty much dead; it still exists, but has little activity other than auto-posted news articles. From time to time it dies entirely when the domain or hosting account isn't renewed (some of those problems would be partially mitigated if wikipediareview.org didn't just forward to wikipediareview.com, making it inoperable if the latter domain is dead; a well-implemented hosting system with neither domain redirecting but both pointing at the same hosting account would allow it to work on either even if the other was inactivated), but it always eventually comes back, but with so little activity one wonders why anybody even bothers.

Still, even without the worst loonies, WO (and WR in the day) often infuriates me because of a dominant tone highly antithetical to my own values and philosophies; while the individual participants there vary enormously on many sociopolitical spectra, there is a strong undercurrent of anti-geek, anti-"Free Culture", anti-libertarianism. Ironically, it is my own geek, free-culture, libertarian values that cause me to fervently defend the right to freely discuss and link to that site. *Dan T.* (talk) 15:01, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

Oddly many there are Computeratii from the mid 1970s, many are also "Free Culture" but not as given expression by Freetardery, and many are also Libertarian though more from the Kropotkin school than Ron Paul. IOW Geek, Free Culturist, and Libertarian with a deep knowledge of how such can be manipulated by corporate interests. See if you are truly Libertarian in thought, you'll be on the side of the individual not that of the collective. Now look at how individuals are routinely shafted in BLPs and on the drama boards here, all in service of the 'collective' (community). Witness how a small elite manipulates community norms. John lilburne (talk) 15:48, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) What you're detecting is just the strong opinions of some of the frequent posters; there really aren't very many people on WO. There's nothing to stop you or anyone else turning up and adding your own voice to the mix. I arrived there only very recently, and have had major differences of opinion with a number of people (John lilburne included! Hi John); but I enjoy the robust and vigorous discussion that frequently results. The board moderators are also good at keeping the place in order while maintaining the expectation that you can post pretty much whatever's on your mind, and I've seen them remove inappropriate posts in short order. It's also one of those places where you need to expect that someone may loudly disagree with you and you have to speak up for yourself. That's not a bad thing. — Hex (❝?!❞) 16:01, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

I see a lot of the dominant personalities on WO/WR to be kind of the "flip side of the coin" of the more fervent BADSITES warriors on this site, and it thus doesn't surprise me that there are cases of people flipping their positions from one of these extremes to the other. They're both opposed to the moderate, "live-and-let live" position, being instead prone to exaggeration and whipping up moral panics. On the WO/WR side, it's usually of the "Just Think Of The Children!" variety, going on about the evils of Misplaced Pages/Wikimedia porn and the presence of editors who are minors, as well as hysteria about how what Misplaced Pages does to BLPs ruins people's lives; on the WP BADSITES Warrior side, it's about how those evil WO/WR harrassers are ruining Wikipedians' lives. In both cases, it's trumped up to the nth degree, where it takes what had the germ of a reasonable idea and turns it into an attempt to foment an angry mob into taking foolish action. *Dan T.* (talk) 16:48, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

(John lilburne included! Hi John) I was probably in a grumpy mood, but Hi there back. Much of it was probably intended for observers to go chew on, and like a dog with a bone worry on, then bury and later dig back up (Hi Seren, Hi Wnt, Hi Demiurge). John lilburne (talk) 20:02, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

I'm going to repeat what I said in the WP:BADSITES discussion, because nothing has changed. What's going to happen, if W-ocracy doesn't self-destruct, is that they will eventually catch someone else in a major COI or ESSJAY-style embarassment, and there will be a big fight over linking to them because the offenders will use the anonymity policy as a shield. I wrote Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages is in the real world in response to the BADSITES effort as an argument against the notion that we can wall ourselves off from external criticism, and it is well-regarded enough to be referred to in the lead of Misplaced Pages:Conflict of interest. Making a big deal of this site carries the message that this site is a big deal, and that therefore people should look at it to see what a site critical of Misplaced Pages is saying that is so inflammatory that we cannot speak of it. Mangoe (talk) 14:11, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Request for help with/clarification of BAN policy

2 quotes from WP:BAN policy:

"The Misplaced Pages community can decide, by consensus, to impose a ban. Community banning discussions generally take place at the administrators' noticeboard or a subpage thereof." and

"If an editor has proven to be repeatedly disruptive in one or more areas of Misplaced Pages, the community may engage in a discussion to site ban, topic ban, or place an interaction ban or editing restriction via a consensus of editors who are not involved in the underlying dispute. When determining consensus, the closing administrator will assess the strength and quality of the arguments."

So, if this is right, I could use some input from uninvolved editors (you?) at W:AN#User:J._Johnson_-_hostile_environment to review some diffs and such and help achieve consensus on action against a disruptive editor. If not, this policy needs editing; I'm being told doing this is not allowed! Thanks.--Elvey (talk) 9:10 am, Today (UTC−8)

Elvey is forum-shopping. (Check Special:Contributions/Elvey to keep up.) But I concur that he could use some input, though I recommend checking on the AN to get the background before jumping in. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:48, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Dear reader, please review what forum shopping is. If you feel seeking more input at the original forum (AN) (that is, what I am doing with my post above) is forum shopping, or you don't, please come to AN and share your view. That kind of misrepresentation of policy is part of why I opened the case about JJ at AN in the first place.--Elvey (talk) 00:01, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style/Spelling theater/theatre

Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style/Spelling - We could use more editor's eyes on this and input for direction, references, prose, tables etc.. Two editors with differring opinions can't really make a true consensus. Lets create a true community consensus on how to handle this guidline. (also think it might be worth its own subpage) Thanks.--Amadscientist (talk) 00:52, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Navigational box category names

Is the proper name for the category, Category:Wine navbox templates or Category:Wine navigational boxes? I thought we were using "XXXX navigational boxes", but an editor has been renaming all of them to "XXXX navbox templates". Which is correct? Or, where should I ask? Thank you. 174.56.57.138 (talk) 04:04, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

Outing and obvious COI

Although I'm generally a supporter of our policy on outing, there are times when I believe it may prevent us from tagging articles as COI even though the COI is blatantly obvious. Last month I ran into a BLP obviously being edited by the subject, as the editor's username was used by the subject on the subject's own webpages - it's their twitter tag, etc. There's actually no attempt to hide that other than the fact they don't mention it on Misplaced Pages (and so far haven't responded to my question as to whether the editor has a COI).

More recently it's become obvious that an editor has created articles with a clear coi, one a deleted biography and another about an organisation they run. Again, searching for the username on the web makes this explicit.

Does policy, and if it does should policy, prevent us from recognising this COI? Dougweller (talk) 09:12, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

Why is it so important to draw attention to a conflict of interest? The relevant issue, insofar as Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia rather than a social networking site, is whether article content conforms to our policies, such as WP:NPOV, rather than who is writing the content. My strong preference would be to stop using ad hominem tags such as {{coi}}, and use content-focussed tags such as {{npov}} instead. Phil Bridger (talk) 11:14, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

For better or worse, COI article editing is NOT forbidden, and is a regular occurrence because of that (and COI is 'just' a guideline.) I don't think we should be relaxing the rules policy on outing, which as I read it, may allow the outing you are considering on COIN, only ("... information can be used for discussions of conflict of interest in appropriate forums" (but, no 'oppo' or threats!). The cost-benefit ratio of strengthening COI beats that for weakening OUTING, IMO. But Phil's suggestion is probably better than either.--Elvey (talk) 16:17, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

Said differently: Such outing results in more unhelpful drama, as it consists essentially of inflammatory accusations of activity for which there is no sanction. And that drama is Misplaced Pages's #1 problem, IMNSHO. I hope you consider and find what I've written helpful, rather than dismissing it because it's coming from 'boring' me, Doug. --Elvey (talk) 16:30, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

I'm very aware that COI editing is not forbidden and have worked with editors with major COI issues in the past successfully (in that the editor and I have been able to agree on article and avoid promotionalism). I still think our readers deserve to know when there is such a conflict of interest, and this has been a major issue in the past which I don't think is going to go away. I don't think avoiding COI tags is a good idea. Among other things they can draw the attention of readers and editors to possible NPOV issues. Dougweller (talk) 17:02, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

But surely an NPOV tag is at least as good for drawing attention to NPOV issues? The problem with a COI tag is that there is no way to address the issue so as to remove the tag, because it is about who has edited the article in the past rather than the current state of the article. Phil Bridger (talk) 17:06, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

If the article is neutral, then why do our readers need to be warned about who wrote it? WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:55, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

If this is turning into an argument against COI tags I'll mention it as WP:COI. Dougweller (talk) 19:51, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

I also don't think COI tags are useful. How exactly are you ever supposed to get rid of them, since the person having a COI will always be true? That's why our article tags should focus on being about the state of the article. And if a COI person is writing perfectly neutral and good articles (which I think WP:PAIDHELP has shown is done a lot), then them having a COI is completely irrelevant. I think POV-pushers are way worse than people with COIs anyways. Silverseren 20:21, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

It's difficult on long or complex articles to know whether they're neutral unless you make yourself familiar with the source material, which could take days or weeks of work. If the article about multinational X has been written by that company's corporate communications officer, it might be important to alert the reader with the COI tag. Doug, you're right that this gets tricky when it's a BLP written by one editor; the COI tag basically outs them in cases like that. But with such articles, it would matter less to the reader; that is, there is unlikely to be a strong public-interest argument in favour of making clear that John Smith, butterfly collector, has written an article about himself. So in cases where it's more of an irritant than anything else, I wouldn't use the COI tag. SlimVirgin 20:21, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

The {{POV-check}} template covers such a situation where an article needs to be checked for neutrality without us having to out anyone or accuse anyone of having a conflict of interest. Surely templates in article space should be about articles, not editors? Phil Bridger (talk) 19:15, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

Except, that it would be relevant information for any reader if Company Y's article is or maybe written by Company Y. Alanscottwalker (talk) 23:14, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:BLP and contradictory age data

Hi, that is from the ongoing Arbitration Committee case in Russian Misplaced Pages. I am wondering about situations when reliable data sources indicate different year of birth (and age respectively) yet one of versions is sustained by the subject of the article and others are denied. What would be the best by Misplaced Pages:BLP: just to accept the current version of the given living person, accept it but to comment about other versions, follow the common procedure of identifying the most reliable source(s)? Could anyone quickly point to similar previous issues in English Misplaced Pages (if any) to get know the discussion logic and decisions? (and yes, it is about one of what is called celebrities in English) --NeoLexx (talk) 16:21, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

From my point of view, there are two possible solutions when reliable sources disagree: either cite them both and attribute them explicitly in the text ("Source A says that he was born in 1963, but source B says that he was born in 1959) or leave it out entirely. The former is better because it does what we're supposed to do, represent reliable viewpoints in proportion and allow the sources to speak for themselves. If the sources disagree, allow the sources to disagree in our text. It's not our business at Misplaced Pages to resolve such conflicts, merely to dispassionately report that the conflict itself exists. Insofar as truly reliable sources don't agree on the person's birthdate, we represent that disagreement itself in the Misplaced Pages article, clearly attributing to the sources themselves so readers can make their own decisions regarding whom to believe. --Jayron32 16:45, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

I don't think it will surprise anyone to hear that this involves an actress/fashion model. What surprised me is that at least four different dates have been documented. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:00, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

Five to be exact (time-line arranged: 1971, 1976, 1977, 1979, 1981), all once published at some RS. The latest one is now called by the person to be an unfriendly act of unspecified competitors. The 1st, 2nd and 3rd sequentially removed from the person's personal site and any other sites agreed to cooperate with the person. Any printed resources with 1971, 1976, 1977 called to be historical mistakes or a libel. The only acceptable options for the other side are either 1979 or the complete page removal. Telephone calls to some ru-wiki editors, screaming, crying, court call menacing. So far the article is blocked in a limbo state from anyone except admins and higher, effectively locked from admins as well by the ongoing Arbitration Committee call pending. A madhouse... At the AC talk page I proposed as an option to remove such celebrities to Wikia all together as persons whom existence in this world is not fully proven or questionable. Emotions, maybe, but did you guys have some stand up like that around a celebrity bio to look at for an inspiration? --NeoLexx (talk) 22:20, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

It seems to me that we have had various people throw temper tantrums about their biographies, although I can't think of any specific examples. An actress sued over her age in IMDb a while ago. Here in the USA, truth is an absolute defense against libel, so it'd be pretty hard to win anything other that laughter all around the courthouse.

If I were that actress and really concerned about it, I'd release other proofs to the media, like information about when she started and finished school and who her classmates and teachers were. University could be done at any age (and worldwide, most people don't go to university), but most people begin school at the age of five, six, or seven, and almost everyone at the same age in any given country, so that would be a fairly convincing proof. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:36, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

Sourcing issues relating to Venezuela, Iran, Cuba, and their governments

I've been looking into the politics of countries that are anti-US, such as Venezuela, and Iran, and how these countries are portrayed in the American media. I've noticed that many non-US publications are saying that the US government and media are portraying these countries very unfavourably at home. Some of the reports are also inconsistent with the point of views of mainstream US media.

Venezuela:

• The War on Democracy
• US Attempts to Demonize and Destabilize Venezuela Will Not Work
• Why the US demonises Venezuela's democracy
• Hugo Chavez was a democrat, not a dictator, and showed a progressive alternative to neo-liberalism is both possible and popular
• Sean Penn: Journalists who call Hugo Chávez a dictator should be jailed

Iran:

• U.N. official says U.S. "demonizes" Iranian leader
• Major US media 'constantly demonizing' Iran, Syria, admits CNN
• ‘Demonization of Iran and Syria cannot convince Europeans they need US army protection from “energy blackmailers” such as Russia’ – expert
• What ‘Argo’ Gets Wrong About Iran
• US media demonizes Iran

As an English sector of Misplaced Pages, I would have imagined that we rely on major American media outlets such as CNN, ABC, Reuters, New York Times, and Huffington Post for a lot of our referencing work on articles about international relations because they are prominent and are easy to source. However, we need to be aware that, when authoring articles countries that are unfriendly to the US government, such as Venezuela, Iran, North Korea, Cuba, and to a lesser extent, Syria, we MUST make sure that other non-US media outlets like Al Jazeera, DW, the BBC, AFP, Xinhua News Agency, The Guardian, and France 24, be used more often than those of the US.

For example, if a claim is referenced from an American outlet, *at least* one non-US source must complement that reference; or the author could go ahead and replace the US source with a non-US one.

Again, we must include more non-US sources in our references. --Sp33dyphil ©_ontributions 08:51, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

Your argument would already appear to be supported by WP:NPOV. The issue is with whether people are following existing policy rather than anything that needs changing within our policies. Phil Bridger (talk) 09:08, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

Yes I'm aware of that. My point is, there may be some people, especially those from the US, who might not realise that the US government and media are demonizing the government of these countries. It is imperitive that this observation is known by editors who cover Middle Eastern and Latin American political affairs. I'd like such a message to be written down somewhere to warn other editors. --Sp33dyphil ©_ontributions 10:37, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

This could serve as a good starting point.--Ymblanter (talk) 10:55, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

Sorry for not being clear -- there are people who don't realize that the US media is demonizing these countries in the first place. How can I let everyone know this? --Sp33dyphil ©_ontributions 23:15, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

• Country of origin of news coverage is entirely irrelevant. The question is whether NPOV is being maintained. There are a whole spectrum of views in the "American press," for the record, it is completely inaccurate to say that "the US media is demonizing these countries." SOME of the American media is doing this, just as is some of the British media, some of the French media, some of the German media, and so on... Carrite (talk) 04:43, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

Speedy Rescue

At this discussion Peridon mentioned a process called "Speedy Rescue" so my proposal is adding a new section to the draft guideline involving Speedy Rescue ie. Speedy Rescue allows abandoned drafts with potential but not ready to be moved into the article space to be Rescued from MfD or the proposed abandoned drafts PROD/CSD. Cobalion. Setting Justice everywhere.active 11:53, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

Acceptable use of double accounts?

I would like to create a second account for use when contributing in the subjects that are at the center of my professional work. Up until now I've done antivandalism work, modest contributions in my own field of work, fixing obvious errors in other areas, and contributed, sometimes frivolously, at the reference desk. I would not like to advertise on my user pages that there is any connection between the two accounts, for privacy reasons. If I did, even with a random username, many of those who know me professionally would make the connection, and be able to retrieve more information about me than I would like them to. Is this acceptable under current policy, or would I have to make a "fresh start"? --NorwegianBlue 11:57, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

See WP:SOCK#LEGIT. Seems the reasons you've given would be legitimate under that policy. I might add, that there is no need to explicitly identify the alternate account, although you need to be very careful to not edit using both accounts in a way that runs afoul of sockpuppetry. older ≠ wiser 12:14, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

Allow anons to create redirects

Anonymous users should be allowed to create redirects to existing articles. This can enable the silly vandalism of creating a redirect from currently non-existent derogatory article names such as poopfart to articles about persons. But this type of vandalism does not harm the quality of any Misplaced Pages articles and is strictly less harmful than the currently allowed vandalism of changing an existing article with a derogatory title such as idiot into a redirect.213.190.104.143 (talk) 13:18, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

It's hard to implement though. The only way I can see this implemented is making something like Redirects for Creation. And why not make a account? Cobalion. Setting Justice everywhere.active 14:09, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

And once they've created the redirect, they can then edit the redirect to form an article. Nope.—Kww(talk) 02:30, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Never gonna happen. Would provide a vector for vandalism and libel without providing any measurable benefit to the encyclopedia. In the rare case that an anon absolutely, positively, must must must make a redirect but for whatever reason can't make an account, they can always post on a noticeboard to leave a talk message for one of the active admins. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 02:47, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

See Misplaced Pages:Articles for creation/Redirects for a current method available to IP editors. Monty₈₄₅ 03:45, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Remove "Fewer than 30 watchers" limit

Moved from Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard#Remove "Fewer than 30 watchers" limit

I've created tools for unwatched pages. I would like to remove the 500+ edit minimum from these tools, including one that gives out lists of inactivitly-unwatched articles by WikiProjects sortable by link count. I've already setup a recent unwatched changes tool and would consider adding features to my WikiProject tools. The facts are: 492,381 of 4,182,163 articles (12%) have no watchers and more if remove inactive users (911,062, 21%). A vandal has a 1 in 5 shot of hitting an unwatched page and as users burden themselves with large watchlists small edits will be missed. — Dispenser 01:31, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Sounds like a good idea, except that us non-admins can't see the linked tools page mentioned. Is there a description available? Just curious. El duderino 02:51, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Fixed, meant to link to the talk page. — Dispenser 02:54, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

How would this help? Wikipedians with accounts can already use the tools. In this case, I think the potential for abuse by vandals outweighs the benefits of open access. wctaiwan (talk) 03:34, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

In response to the comment at AN: Anti-vandalism tools based on tracking recent changes are best at dealing with obvious vandalism. The more damaging subtle vandalism (e.g. adding seemingly coherent information--which may be incorrect or correct but simply without a source) is much harder to combat. I think removing the limit has the danger of giving vandals a list of pages where they're more likely to get away with engaging in subtle vandalism. wctaiwan (talk) 03:57, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

The watchlist becomes rubbish without a "Hide reverted vandalism" option or a link "Mark as non-vandalism". It becomes a mental waste filtering out which edits were reverted vandalism. Best to drag this issue out in the open and deal with it. Also, opening the data we could highlight "minimal watched" pages on watchlists. — Dispenser 05:39, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

• To respond to comment you made at AN, regarding RC tools, RC tools, along with automated defenses are the core of our defenses against vandalism, but they are far from infallible. They are best at catching really obvious vandalism, and even then, vandalism does slip through the holes in the automated and semi-automated defenses. Once the vandalism does, the only hope for prompt removal is that someone notices the watchlist entry, and so articles on few or no watchlists are very likely to see vandalism that slips through the tools stick around, potentially for years. So it is a real issue. That said, I'm on the fence on the issue. Security through obscurity works, even if it isn't an ideal solution. But to object to a tool on the grounds it would undermine the obscurity may be taking it too far. Monty₈₄₅ 03:41, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

  20% of articles are unwatched, this obviously does not include those affected by watchlist bankruptcy, quirky preference settings, or just unwilling to deal with vandalism and vandals. I guesstimate 40% of articles where if the first lines of defense fails the vandalism will continue to exist for weeks or months. — Dispenser 05:39, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

• Will make a bad situation worse. Most people are totally unaware of the fact that the ratio of "regular users" to articles has been plummeting (5100/1560k vs 3560/3835k) and in 2012 there were three times fewer (3.4 in fact) regular users to watch pages per page than 2007. By and large the Wiki-doors are wide open to COI and vandal edits now. All that is needed is a flashlight to help the vandals find their way around? This just reinforces my feeling that people are unaware of how wide open the doors are now, and how soundly the community is sleeping... Can anything be done about it? I don't think so, for differing opinions now make major decisions impossible, as the pending changes quagmires have shown. History2007 (talk) 03:55, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

• What number of the "20%" saw any non-bot/non-automated edits? Also, how many page views?Alanscottwalker (talk) 11:31, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

If it's any consolation, my observation (from watching about 600 pages /250 articles 2/3 of them obscure) is that I think that I've seen subtle vandalism to almost always be on the more prominent articles. Maybe it's a bigger "accomplishment" to sneak something in on a more prominent article. North8000 (talk) 11:49, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

• I am opposed to removing the limit, as it seems obvious it will create more problems that it solves. We might debate the 500 edit threshold - perhaps it could be lowered a bit, but not much, perhaps to 250. I would think a new editor interested in anti-vandalism could get to 250 edits in a day or two. Why is that an unreasonable burden? Alternatively, create a right, so if for example, someone with a complete hundred edits is interested in anti-vandalism, they could be granted the right to see the tools. Then we could have someone watching the watcher, to make sure they weren't gaming the system.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 13:35, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

I was cringing at the thought of creating a new user right for such a narrow need, but now that I've read Ryan Vesey's comment, I agree, it would make sense to include this with Rollback.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 13:43, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

• I think it's the wrong answer. There's no security hole in creating a list of recent changes to pages that no one was watching, and letting Recent Change patrollers look at it. The change has already been made (so it won't tip anyone off), and all the Recent Change patrollers will see it (so the change won't go unchecked). Give the tool that creates the list an admin bit, and the problem is solved.—Kww(talk) 17:03, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Index of child editors

More or less.

If we're going to allow minors to identify as such, it seems a bit unwise to provide a handy tool for locating them as well. Or maybe I just worry too much. — Hex (❝?!❞) 21:29, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

It could be worse; at least someone didn't start a thread about it on a widely-read noticeboard. Oh, wait... --Floquenbeam (talk) 21:39, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

I think any villains would probably discover these things themselves, not from a noticeboard. — Hex (❝?!❞) 23:53, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Hum!!! We should send these users a message like the one below since there so exposed.

Your safety and security

1. Passwords: Don't tell anyone your password, even your best friend.
2. Account sharing: Don't let your family or friends use your account. Ever. If they do something wrong, you'll get blamed for it.
3. Log out every time you leave the computer, especially if it is a public computer.
4. Multiple accounts: Don't use more than one account.
5. When you have an account, always log in and use it when you edit.
6. Be careful what you write. Never post your address or telephone/mobile telephone number, and don't use your real name for your username. Don't post photos of yourself, your friends, or family on your user page. People can put this info together to find out who you really are, especially if you have used the same information on other web sites.
7. Don't write articles about yourself - if you are a really important person, someone else will probably write an article about you.
8. If you posted private information by accident, ask an administrator (see below) to delete it for you. Or you can request it to be oversighted. Even if you don't ask, an administrator or other editor may remove it if we know that you are very young. Please don't be upset, as this will be done to protect you.

See Misplaced Pages:Guidance for younger editors for more information.

--Moxy (talk) 21:45, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

From just one brief glance at one user page, the template might not necessarily be construed as outing editors below the age of minority, even if that were a concern of ours. (I think you're just worrrying too much, Hex.) See for exmaple User:DeathHamster. There is nothing present on that user page to indicate that the user is a "minor". --Izno (talk) 21:58, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

The template has a setting for "this user is in primary school" (which was the state I first encountered the template displayed in). I have no idea how somebody thought that was a good idea. — Hex (❝?!❞) 23:51, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

I've removed the offending parameters. I agree, such users should not be positively identifying themselves in this fashion. --Izno (talk) 01:38, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

• Actually, of the ones I spot checked, almost everyone appears to be a university student. I'm sure not all of them are, but most seem to be. --Floquenbeam (talk) 21:56, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

  Yes, it's the minority that I worry about. — Hex (❝?!❞) 23:51, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Why were the pages for all the Friends Episodes removed?

Hey,

I'm a pretty old fan of Misplaced Pages and just wanted to get some help on a question that's been plaguing me for quite some time:

Why were all the individual pages for FREINDS episodes removed? I remember there wee pages for every single episode, whereas now there are only for a few. I notice that the Seinfeld Episodes still have pages and so do the South Park ones... Was there any particular policy decision or so made for the same? Could you please direct me to the same.

I'm a fan of all the above shows and am not trying to find out any particular user preference or so, just wanted to get a background about this.

Thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by DesdemonaOfaMan (talk • contribs) 01:33, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

Well, there are articles for some episodes as listed here. Each season article includes synopses for each episode, and some episodes were probably not sufficiently notable on their own. There is some discussion here as to why this was done (for season 1 in particular).

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