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• Refining the administrator elections process
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The harmful speech of Norden1990

I want to inform the admins about the uncivil speech and dubious agressive POVs of User:Norden1990 according to WP Conduct policy WP:NPA. What is considered to be a personal attack? 1) Racial, sexist, homophobic, ageist, religious, political, ethnic, national, sexual, or other epithets 2) Using someone's affiliations as an ad hominem means of dismissing or discrediting their views. He recently called me in edit summary a "chauvinist user" , called my behaviour as "hysteria" and named my edits as being frustrated or chauvinist . When I complained about this behavior on another thread , Norden1900 was not sorry at all, but on the contrary: he replied that "I reserve the indicatives about you" + he wrote "I'm sorry, but your activity is very similar to Iaaasi's." which is in fact similar to banned User:Stubes99 edits. He also called the insertion of referenced text "vandalism". User:Norden1990 also used again pejorative provocative term "Felvidek" in English discussion with Slovak editor on my Talk page . This looks like a some form of ongoing harassment. Slovaks associate the term Felvidek with the period of Magyarization and consider it pejorative used anti-Slovak, nationalist and revisionist chauvinists. "Felvidék nem Szlovákia" (Felvidek no Slovakia) from web site associated with Jobbik and Hungarism(Hungarian fascist ideologue) . User:Norden1990 does not see a difference between Kingdom of Hungary and Hungary. Some unconstructive discussion with this user. User:Norden1990 also claimed: "nationality was not relevant in the 15th century", unfortunately his demasked POV edits: Jan Jesenius - Slovak person he wrote: "Slovaks had not yet existed." which is obviously an attack + also deleted info, Slovak nobleman A. F. Kollár (Note: see edit summary manipulated with latin term Natio Hungarica..., it was a geographic, institutional and juridico-political category, regardless of language or ethnicity) or another nationality was not relevant... edits: ... And typical behavior, User:Norden1990 wrote "The mention of Hungarian name only raises the quality of article. No need for paranoid." and here deleted name Oradea or . Indeed quality of the article first. Or his contradictory edits >. In the past he also had this kind of unfriendly speech:

• "then read history books, please. And not only in Slovak." .
• "No one can argue with a nationalist editor, just like you, Omen1229. You have strong Slovak POV, a typical example of the historical frustration"
• "It is not possible to discuss with an anti-Hungarian chauvinist, you proved this yourself"
• "typical product of Romanian chauvinism"
• "So you can go to hell together with your threatening."

.--Omen1229 (talk) 11:04, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

Its definitely not civil behavior, but I don't think there is much that can be done at this time other then DRN. The edit of Rightful ruler which placed a false banner on the page and was possibly the worst offense here. It would have to go to WP:SPI, but Norden's edit warring has resulted in locking of a page before and this problem has existed for months. While not terribly disruptive, these are minor personal attacks and a warning about personal attacks should have been issued first. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 13:03, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

• At the very least, Norden1990 needs a NPA warning, and probably a block. There are some absolutely inappropriate statements there, regardless of whatever the OP has said in the discussions. I'm not inclined to look deeper into it, and would leave that to an admin. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 13:28, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

We can see the most recent act of Omen's crusade against me. Dear Omen, do you think, the article of Upper Hungary is also a racist and pejorative anti-Slovak article, because it contains the word "Felvidék"? Felvidék is a Hungarian word, which means "Upper Hungary". This phrase marks the area, hich is today's Slovakia and which was part of the Kingdom of Hungary from the 9th century to 1920. "nationality was not relevant in the 15th century" - historical fact, They were nobles (natio Hungarica) and serfs, the modern national consciousness evolved in the early 19th century.

The other issues that you brought up again has already been discussed. I would like to ask the honorable court-martial that compare the edits of Omen and me. I hope you will see the difference. Since Omen is editing, there is only problem with him. Edit wars, POV edits, unsourced and malicious edits, there is need only look at his discussion page. I can only repeat myself about Omen's attitude and behaviour. Bye --Norden1990 (talk) 13:47, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

Omen's conduct doesn't excuse your own. Nationalist debates require cool heads to resolve, and calling other editors names is not conducive to that. If you keep a lid on your own behaviour it makes it that much easier to report the misdeeds of others. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 14:13, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

You used again provocative term "Felvidek" in English discussion with Slovak editor (me) on my Talk page or in this discussion . It was not in the article Talk page about "Upper Hungary". Nevertheless, also in the main article is: Any use of the word Felvidék to denote all of modern Slovakia is considered offensive by Slovaks.

I also dont understand your dubious POVs, you wrote : "Felvidék (Upper Hungary) was an integral part of Hungary and has never had a separate territorial unit" and then here you edited article with this term + deleted Austrian Empire. It looks like some form of poor provocation.--Omen1229 (talk) 10:57, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

My conscience is clear. I always strived for NPOV in my edits, and it is not my fault that Misplaced Pages is unable to filtering out nationalist editors, who call into question academic publications and historiographical works. I already created almost 900 articles (true, some of them are stubs), contributed in development of much, I do not think that I'd be in such a troubled editor. In contrast Omen always push his Slovak POV, ignores academic resources, get involved in edit wars, and probably is not a coincidence that he was banned already at few times. I do not see a fault with my behavior. I think (and obviously I only proclaim my own opinion) Omen is really a chavinist editor, and according to my knowledge this word does not mean insult. It looks like that is enough to accuse someone and the person in question is banned forever. --Norden1990 (talk) 14:41, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

I've searched the archives and I noticed that is not the first time when Norden1990's name appears on this noticeboard. Four months ago the administrator User:Sandstein raised the possibility of a topic ban / other sanction for Norden1990: 181.48.15.98 (talk) 14:29, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

Dear Iaaasi (note: a sockpuppet), first login and after that we can discuss, and if you see this incident, I was found not guilty. Omen reported me several times, but that does not mean that they should be taken as a precedent for continue this witch-hunt. --Norden1990 (talk) 14:46, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

I always strived for NPOV in my edits... > this is only based on your personal thoughts, but your edits say something quite different.

I already created almost 900 articles... > And what is point? Some users created 10.000 articles..., but absolutely this does not excuse your behavior.

User:Norden1990 post is another absurd false dubious personal views/attacks with no evidence (Omen always push his Slovak POV, ignores academic resources...).

I do not see a fault with my behavior. > Norden1990 continue with personal attacks even on this noticeboard, in the front of the admins: "Omen is really a chavinist editor, and according to my knowledge this word does not mean insult". Accusing the proxy ip 181.48.15.98 of being Iasi is also a personal attack, because your allegation was not officially confirmed, it is only your supposition which must be kept for yourself in the lack of a SPI investigation.

He also bringing here false information (that I was "banned already at few times").

He also involved in edit wars, and not only with me (so in fact Norden1990's another false information...) - here his opponnent was the user Inhakito. The result is that the User:Norden1990 is highly unreliable and only his dubious POVs are acceptable (for him naturally)...--Omen1229 (talk) 10:03, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Do not instruct me on right behaviour. --Norden1990 (talk) 11:13, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Omen, you were "topic-banned from all edits relating to Slovak-Hungarian history for a period of 6 months, due to a persistent history of ethnic battleground editing" . You were also sanctioned for "nationalist editing" . It seems that the six months was not enough for you. For the case of Cabello: there were conflicting news after the death of Hugo Chávez. You can see the talk page, a cooperation evolved between the editors and I also took part in the discussion.--Norden1990 (talk) 18:36, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

You wrote here at first false information that I was "banned already at few times". In fact Fut.Perf. banned Samofi and me after few minutes of investigation but in last 17 months he had not find a time to look on "opponents" as he promised. And here is topic-banned the reporting editor'. --Omen1229 (talk) 16:12, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

I note that misconduct related to Eastern Europe is subject to discretionary sanctions per the arbitration decision WP:ARBEE. Without examining this in detail, it appears there is sufficient evidence for recent problematic editing by Norden1990 (notably, personal attacks by commenting about contributors rather than content, and mislabeling content disagreements as vandalism) to warrant a warning about discretionary sanctions, which I am now issuing. If this problematic editing continues, it can be reported to WP:AE for sanctions.  Sandstein  09:23, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

You can do whatever you want. I suggest you first should look at Omen's activity here. If the style that he uses is permitted, then there's nothing more to talk about. --Norden1990 (talk) 11:13, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

I fully agree with Norden1990's comment. Fakirbakir (talk) 16:16, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Said User:Fakirbakir who for example declared this statement: "the modern Slovakia is a neo-fascist state"--Omen1229 (talk) 16:27, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

When he wrote that the neo-fascist anti-Hungarian and anti-Roma Slovak National Party (SNS) was member party of the Slovak coalition government. --Norden1990 (talk) 23:10, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

• OK, I'm taking a quick look. Now, Norden1990 has clearly acted in an inappropriate manner all too often, but Omen1229 seems to quite frequently revert Norden1990, sometimes incorrectly, sometimes not. Both users edit-war across a whole range of articles, over some of the most ridiculous things (categories seem to crop up fairly often) - Omen removing a category with a frankly inexplicable reason, based on the article here: , and is part of a particularly pointless edit war from both sides being examples of both users reverting each other, pretty much based on the fact that their opponent (so to speak) made the edit. This can either be fixed by an indefinite interaction ban (which is almost certain to fail as both edit in the same area), or a 6 month/year long topic ban on editing any WP:ARBEE-applicable articles, broadly construed for both parties, for frequent, careless and pointless edit warring in those areas, based on nationalistic motives. The latter is by far the more likely to work, and I suggest that's what is applied. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 17:21, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Omen1229 seems to quite frequently revert Norden1990 > here are some my last edits and please look at who started: and here is additional Norden1990's provocation > he declared: "Felvidék (Upper Hungary) was an integral part of Hungary and has never had a separate territorial unit".

edit 105 > the article is about Slovak nobleman A. F. Kollár, also User:FactStraight reverted Norden1990's similar edits. As I wrote above about this Slovak nobleman: > see edit summary manipulated with latin term Natio Hungarica..., it was a geographic, institutional and juridico-political category, regardless of language or ethnicity. Natio Hungarica does not mean Hungarian nobility, but it is Nobility in the multiethnic Kingdom of Hungary. Category:French nobility has a category under the name of the article French nobility and there is not article "Hungarian nobility", only Nobility in the Kingdom of Hungary. And this edit? It needed new category: Jews in Kingdom of Hungary or something similar, also scientists in the Kingdom of Hungary etc... Being a citizen of the multilingual, multiethnic Kingdom of Hungary is not the same with being an ethnic Hungarian.

edit 106 > I don't understand what is "inexplicable" about my reason ("no source for this info"). The edit summary is clear and it reflects the reality: the information is unreferenced. The same idea is supported by another user (Koertefa) on the article talk page: "I do not see the relevance whether "Mercurius"/"Merkúr" is an original Hungarian name. Even if it was, it would not prove for sure that he was ethnic Hungarian --Omen1229 (talk) 08:41, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

• I'm not evaluating whether the reversions are valid or not, but I can see multiple instances of you turning up at articles that you've never edited before, just to undo his changes. And Norden1990 has done the same, but less frequently. You're both edit warring in ARBEE areas, which is justification for a topic ban and/or a block, regardless of if your edit is right or not. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 09:03, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

I assure you that his edit is not right. Omen. Felvidék (Upper Hungary) was an integral part of Hungary and has never had a separate territorial unit. That's right, what is your problem? There were separate administrative units, like Transyvania, Croatia or Fiume, but not Upper Hungary (or Felvidék, which lit. means "Upland"). Slovak nobility never existed, as was only one nobility in the Kingdom of Hungary (Natio Hungarica, as you wrote correctly). You are trying to force modern national consciousness into old situation. Cat:Nobility in the Kingdom of Hungary is might be misleading, as there are also Hungarian nobles today. But they were born when the kingdom was already abolished. By the way, there is standardization: I couldn't find Cat:Nobility in the Kingdom of France, Kingdom of Poland or Kingdom of Portugal etc. etc. . Aaron Samuel ben Moses Shalom of Kremnitz was a Jew and lived in today's Slovakia (then Hungary) in the 17th century. Mere speculation and anachronism to inserted him into the category of "Slovak Jews". Slovakia established in 1993, centuries later. You usually use POV edits and personal attacks () where you claimed Hungarian names as "fabricated", however article already contained Hungarian names (correctly, as apperanace only today's name version is illogical and misleading, according to my knowledge, Slovak language was never used in public administration). "however this is only a biography article of Štúr" - illogical and poor argument, according to your perception, we should write that "Ho Chi Minh City was capital of South Vietnam in 1945". Absurd. These towns (Modor) were clearly part of Hungary, these undeniable facts. The term of "Uhorsko" is a fabricated phrase of Slovak historiography, which denies all connection and contiunity between the historical and modern Hungary. Then, Omen, now you just have to tell, who were the "Uhors"? Maybe Hungarians? I am also Hungarian, so please do not interpreted this Slovak POV to the English Misplaced Pages, as Western publicationd also do not use the term of "Uhorsko" or Uhor Country. 100,000 results? Yeah... Jesenský is a common Slav name, but this family was a Hungarian noble house of Slav origin, as you can see the sources that I proved. "poor nationalistic dubious POV", typical behaviour of Omen. Like this POV pushing . You continously add false information, despite of that User:Koertefa provided several Western sources . when you run out of nationalist arguments, you always try to bring the matter to personal attack, as you did here , , , , . --Norden1990 (talk) 11:21, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

You usually use POV edits and personal attacks (131) where you claimed Hungarian names as "fabricated" > Well, so let's tell you more details about the etymology. Slovak person Ľudovít Štúr 28 October 1815 - 12 January 1856, Uhrovec - the version "Zayugróc" was fabricated in the 19th century (1863) in the period of Magyarization. You also wrote that "these towns (Modor) were clearly part of Hungary, these undeniable facts." I will stay only in the etymology of the town "Modor". You probably think the Slovak city Modra. So according to Štúr biography 1815 - 1856, the official names valid and used in 1808 - 1863: Modra, Modorinum, Modern, Modor. In the 1863 in the period of Magyarization until 1913 was valid only one name - Modor, other variants have been banned. So according to these etymological facts, your edits here edits look like bad faith.

the term of "Uhorsko" is a fabricated phrase of Slovak historiography > please write me more details with some source, because I do not understand you, I used here only term Kingdom of Hungary, if you want I can use latin term Regnum Hungariae or Kaisertum Osterreiach for Austrian Empire. In fact only you used in this discussion the term Felvidek and other dubious POVs...

I am also Hungarian, so please do not interpreted this Slovak POV to the English Misplaced Pages, as Western publicationd also do not use the term of "Uhorsko" or Uhor Country. > ? Where do you see these names in this discussion?

Like this POV pushing . You continously add false information, despite of that User:Koertefa provided several Western sources > Sources about what? Please first read the full discussion . Where do you see "Upper Hungary"? You also declared that Upper Hungary has never had a separate territorial unit. So according to these evidence, your edits here edits look again like bad faith.

edit Giglovce > User:Norden1990 wrote: "Yes, but formerly known as Giglóc (until 1920)." In fact in the 1863 until 1913 was valid only one name - Giglóc, other variants have been banned. User:Norden1990 used in the article only one variant from this period - Magyarization. There are no members of Magyar ethnicity in the village - 0,00%. According to the 2011 census, the municipality had 153 inhabitants. 148 of inhabitants were Slovaks and 5 others and unspecified. There are also other names, for example: Giglowce, Gyglowce, Gyglowcze etc., but unfortunately this user used only one... User:Norden1990 also declared: "The mention of Hungarian name only raises the quality of article. No need for paranoid." and here deleted name Oradea or .

Note: I will continue in this edit, but now I'm bored of this unconstructive discussion with highly unreliable editor who have strong dubious POVs.--Omen1229 (talk) 10:09, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

• I feel the above "I'm right, it's the other guy who is POV-pushing" type responses sum up exactly why I believe an ARBEE topic ban is in order. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 19:19, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

Topic ban for who? I do not get it. Please compare Norden1990's contributions to Omen1229's editing. Their contributions are as different as chalk and cheese. Norden1990 is an excellent wiki editor. He deserves praise instead of scorn.....Fakirbakir (talk) 15:58, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

• Both editors. Regardless of whether their edits are correct or not, both have violated ARBEE by frequently edit-warring over the nationality of a hell of a lot of articles, and that is a simply unacceptable fact. There have been some very solid edits by both editors, but the fact of the matter is that good edits don't justify editors staging all-out war on other editors. Both are constantly accusing each other of being POV-pushers and both abuse each other quite frequently in other ways, which complicates matters. People should never be praised for constant edit-warring (unless that edit-warring is to removal obviously hateful content and keep it out, which this doesn't classify as.) Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 16:41, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Proposal: Topic Ban

Per Lukeno, I propose a topic ban for both users from Hungary-related ARBEE-related articles, broadly construed, for violating ARBEE. Herr Kommisar 13:21, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

For me, a topic ban from Hungary-related articles would be equivalent to a total ban from anything, while this method is only partially affected to the Slovak ethnic Omen's edits. It is not fair. --Norden1990 (talk) 17:00, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

• Comment - I was not proposing a Hungary-related ban. I was proposing an ARBEE-related ban. Technically, since one user insists these are Slovak articles, then the ban wouldn't actually work anyway. Obviously, I strongly support an ARBEE-related topic ban, but a Hungary-related one is definitely too narrow in scope. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 17:28, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

While I agree that edit warring is not acceptable, it should be noted that user Norden1990 made several excellent contributions to WP, mostly to articles which fall into the category of WP:ARBEE. Therefore, by enforcing such a topic ban we would lose an exceptional editor. I think that warning both involved editors should be enough and, if they continue the war, a 1RR like restriction could be applied, to enforce appropriate communication. Cheers, KœrteFa {ταλκ} 18:44, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

• I'm not saying that the editors haven't made good contributions, because they clearly have. However, any flagrant violations of ARBEE, like this, cannot go unpunished, no matter how good the editors may be. Also, 1RR won't work, as they're edit warring with each other over multiple articles, but not necessarily making more than 1 revert per article. It is always a shame to lose productive editors, but if they won't abide by the guidelines in such highly charged areas, then there's no choice. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 07:08, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Then call this prohibition, which is actually that: ban from everything. Might as well you can also close my user account. Furthermore, Hungary is in Central Europe, so I don't understant this Eastern Europe ban here... --Norden1990 (talk) 11:06, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

• Support As nom. Changed to include all ARBEE-related articles. Herr Kommisar 00:07, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Of course you can not give appropriate reasons. So, could I not continue to create biographies of Hungarian politicians in the modern era? --Norden1990 (talk) 11:06, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

• No topic-ban - There is no demonstrated need for a topic ban after just being placed on notice as a result of this thread. Editor has been notified and that is enough, anything further will likely drive the editor away and serves as a procedural block/ban. I cannot agree with the warning to topic ban for this single instance, there has not been an issue since the warning and no expectation or evidence of bad-faith to warrant topic banning at this time. And to answer Norden1990's statement above; United Nations Statistics Division and the European Union considers Hungary to be in Eastern Europe, see page. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 12:03, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

• Regardless of where Hungary is considered to be, ARBEE covered Hungarian articles anyway, did it not? Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 14:01, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

• Comment Might it not be simpler to use a standard discretionary sanctions model here? They've now both been warned/notified (Norden recently, Omen a long time ago and receiving a now expired 6 month ban later) and this has been reaffirmed here. If their poor behaviour continues, they can be taken to WP:AE which would likely be simpler than a ANI discussion. Nil Einne (talk) 16:55, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Amiram Goldblum

I proposed the article on Amiram Goldblum for deletion because there is substantial evidence to prove that the article is an autobiography. The user who created the article has been accused of sockpuppetry. It seems like mostly very partisan people edit the article. I'd like to hear the opinion of experienced users. If I'm wrong in proposing the article, I would like to know why. Thank you very much. Nataev (talk) 15:42, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

The article was created by Soosim; I have heard no suggestion that s/he is a sockpuppet. Please remove that unfounded allegation. Further, the creation of an autobiographical article, or editing of an article about oneself, is not forbidden, and is certainly not grounds for deletion of an article edited by many editors about a prominent individual. And if you think that "partisan" people should not be editing the article, I presume that you will also be recusing yourself from it. RolandR (talk) 16:31, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

At best, Nataev was not wrong in prodding the article once -- but he was certainly wrong in restoring the prod once it had been removed and in trying to insist that only an admin could determine its outcome. Not hard to see how this ANI section will turn out. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 16:39, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

• I would also suggest that this edit summary is a BLP violation. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 16:41, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Haha, OK, he is a "prominent person"! I'm not willing to spend any more time discussing the article on this "prominent" juvenile who wrote an article about himself. Best, Nataev (talk) 16:45, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

"Juvenile"?? Nomoskedasticity (talk) 17:46, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Yes that's a rather odd characterisation. According to the article, the person is in his 60s. That's not an age considered juvenile in probably 99.99% of the world. If the OP is calling the person 'juvenile' for reasons other than age, that's likely a BLP violation and/or a personal attack. Or does the OP not know what 'juvenile' means or did the OP either fail to read the article they kept trying to PROD? Nil Einne (talk) 11:23, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Personal attacks on article subject and other editors

The edit summary linked above , shows Nataev referring to Golblum as an "idiot". There is now an edit on the talk page where Nataev refers to Goldblum as a "pseudo-scientist". In addition Nataev is attacking other editors, calling one of them "pathetic" and "a joke" . I don't think this editor should be editing in this particular topic area and in fact should spend a brief period not editing at all. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 04:53, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Nataev thinks he is entitled to his own opinion. He is pretty sure that only an idiot would write an article about himself on Misplaced Pages. He is not interested in "this particular topic" at all. He is just amused by Goldbum. Nataev (talk) 09:58, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

P.S. Nataev called Goldbum himself "pathetic" and "a joke." Let's not forget that it is Goldbum himself who has written the article on Goldbum. Nataev (talk) 10:08, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

...and calling the subject of the article names would be a WP:BLP violation (✉→BWilkins←✎) 10:13, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Wow, Nataev didn't know that! You see, he is a new user! Well, not really, he is just kidding. But he is making progress. Goldbum has taught him to talk about himself in the third person. Nataev (talk) 10:20, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

So, talking about yourself in 3rd person is ridiculous; calling an editor names is a violation of WP:NPA; calling the subject of an article names is a WP:BLP violation; creating an autobiography is not only frowned upon, but completely dumb ... between the lot of you, you all need to go away and fix things. (✉→BWilkins←✎) 10:25, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

I couldn't agree more with this: "creating an autobiography is not only frowned upon, but completely dumb." So, a person who does dumb things is by definition dumb. That's my whole point! Seriously though, I don't want to spend any more time on this stupid matter. Nataev (talk) 10:39, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Wrong and warped logic. Very smart people (PhD's for example) do stupid things all the time (like drive while drunk). To say "a person who does dumb things is by definition dumb" is, well, dumb. On Misplaced Pages we comment on edits, NEVER on the contributor - period. Nor do we ascribe traits the way you're trying to, because that's just plain dumb (✉→BWilkins←✎) 10:44, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Great, thank you for sharing with us your ingenious philosophy. You're indeed very smart. Nataev (talk) 10:50, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

P.S. Goldbum taught me new words like "lier", "vandalizer" and many others. You taught me to use the apostrophe when forming the plurals of capital letters used as nouns. Nataev (talk) 10:50, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

• This post by Nataev (which was deleted by a subsequent edit to ANI) and the others in this section do not suggest that Nataev intends to stop making personal attacks or to edit I/P related articles (particularly BLPs) with the appropriate attitude. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 17:26, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
  • In that edit I clarified what I had written before. I have no idea why Robert McClenon deleted it. It's fine if with me if the Goldbum article is kept. It's not the end of the world. Goldbum is such a trivial person that not that many people read about him anyway. Nomoskedasticity, I have far more interesting and important things to do than discuss an article about some (personal attack again removed) scholar. Nataev (talk) 18:14, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

So apparently it's not enough that Nataev wants to post personal attacks on BLP subjects on ANI itself. Someone else removed the phrase "obscure, semi-literate scholar" from the post immediately above (consistent with WP:TPO -- and Nataev then restored it. Again I suggest that there's no sign of improvement here, rather the opposite. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 11:25, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Dear Administrators: Please note Misplaced Pages:Biographies_of_living_persons/Administrator_instructions which helps you leave templates on users pages. If they ignore you evidently you can advance to tougher sanctions. CarolMooreDC - talkie talkie🗽 12:59, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

• Update. Black Kite blocked Nataev for two days and I have indefinitely topic banned him from making any edits about Amiram Goldblum under WP:BLPBAN. Salvio 13:23, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Whoops guess I spoke too soon, for the record I support both actions mentioned above. Nil Einne (talk) 14:00, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

• I've declined the third unblock request from this editor, who has threatened to retire. I urged him to take some time off, but also to dive back into something non-BLP and non-drama. Obviously, the topic-ban remains in place, even as the block expires in a day or so. UltraExactZZ ~ Did 13:56, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

The editor has objected to my characterization of their comment as "threatening to retire". The editor indicated, in their unblock request, that they were considering retirement. I regret the error. UltraExactZZ ~ Did 16:11, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Advice regarding handling offensive user page

Please see the user page of St.HocusPocus (talk · contribs). I'm pretty certain that it is both offensive and out of line, but I wanted to ask for advice on how to handle this, what to cite, etc, as I haven't really addressed an issue like this before.

(I know ANI prerequisites are usually notifying the user, and trying to work it out beforehand, but I haven't done this because I figured this topic was more about me wanting advice on policy and enforcing it rather than needing actual intervention. I plan on handling it myself, outside of ANI, once I know what to say. If this is wrong, I'll gladly notify him though. Thanks!) Sergecross73 msg me 17:20, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

You have to notify. Whether or not it was okay to come here before a direct approach, you have to notify the user now that you've started a discussion here. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 17:26, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Okay, done. Sergecross73 msg me 17:28, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Not seeing anything particularly actionable here. Can you point at which section of WP:UP#NOT you think it meets and why you think it needs "immdediate" intervention by a Administrator? It's relatively tame compared to some of the "It makes the eyes bleed" user pages I've seen. Hasteur (talk) 20:48, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Well, I didn't think it was especially appropriate to be calling a group of people "self-righteous racists". It kind of goes against the entire second paragraph of what you just linked to, if you ask me. Sergecross73 msg me 20:57, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Also, WP:UP#POLEMIC. Sergecross73 msg me 21:01, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Again, compared to some of the of the truly polemic comments and content and referring to it in such an oblique manner I personally (even though I'm not an admin) don't see anything actionable. Hasteur (talk) 21:08, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Hasteur. Compared to what I've seen pop up at MfD at times, this page is particularly meh... If you feel strongly that it should go, my advice would be to talk to the guy or nominate it for deletion. Salvio 21:12, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Huh. I guess I haven't seen any bad ones in my time here then. It stuck me as rather offensive, and not conducive to creating an encyclopedia. This certainly isn't my area of Admin expertise though. My approach probably would have been something along the lines of "Hey, people find this offensive, and its frowned upon per WP:UP#POLEMIC, so I was wondering if you would remove it." but it looks like thus far that's not in fact people's reaction to it, so I suppose I won't bother, unless someone says otherwise. At least I know what to cite for the future. Sergecross73 msg me 23:32, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

You find it offensive that I took offense at being called a "hilljack”? Really now, I'm 'out of line' for calling a 'goth' a racist for using a racist slur? But calling someone a ‘hilljack’ for liking a genre of music a ‘goth’ doesn’t like isn’t out of line?

Your views are warped, mate.

To clarify this, the term ‘hilljack’ didn’t offend me on a personal level, as I am not a southerner in any way shape or form. If I must clarify further, for the sake of this explanation, I am a white collar northerner who happens to be extremely liberal and socially progressive. What I found offensive was the self-righteous attitude of most self proclaimed ‘goths’ that I’ve had the displeasure of communicating with whether online or in real life…that they are somehow superior do to their taste in music and their taste in clothing.

The person in question who originally tossed the ‘hilljack’ term at me, was someone with a limited understanding of music, who was under the impression that the band “HIM” is a metal band, and who views anyone who listens to “metal” as a redneck, and because I added the band “HIM” to the “List of gothic rock bands” page (with a wealth of reliable sources to back it up) he/she got upset and couldn’t see past his/her self-perceived social superiority and called me a hilljack for it.

That was the issue. --St.HocusPocus (talk) 00:25, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

Quite frankly, I don't believe I've ever heard of the term "hilljack" before. It must not be something people say where I come from. I had no idea it was such an offensive word; without knowing the background, that sounded like it had all of the offensive edge of calling someone a "jerk face" or something. That being said, the point still stands. Its not like "two wrongs make a right". Is your defense in all of this really "No Serge, there's not just one offensive generalization in my User page, there's two. Like that makes it better or something? Sergecross73 msg me 04:05, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

So you find my finding of somebody’s self righteous behavior and calling them out on it offensive? And you find the term ‘racist’ offensive? You’re not making sense. - What ‘still stands’? For one, this is really none of your business, though you’ve taken the liberty to make it yours, and unrightfully so.

“Its not like "two wrongs make a right".

This isn’t a moral objectivity lecture. Refer to the above paragraph. I am in no way, shape, or form ‘in the wrong’ for taking outspoken issue with stupidity.

“Is your defense in all of this really "No Serge, there's not just one offensive generalization in my User page, there's two. Like that makes it better or something?”

You can’t be serious. I don’t need a defense because there is nothing to defend. Do you honestly think you are putting me on the spot here by questioning my moral compass in an issue you have nothing to do with?

Again, refer to the first paragraph. You seriously take offense to my taking offense to someone’s self righteous behavior and calling them out on it offensive? And you find the term ‘racist’ offensive?

Your main goal here seems to be to make a mountain out of a molehill. --St.HocusPocus (talk) 20:27, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

My problem is that your wording gives a blanket accusation for an entire group/subsection of people as racist. Your userpage says What wonderful people those “Goths” are, huh? Sad to say my real life encounters with these self-righteous racists haven’t been much different. Why you've chosen this to define your identity here is beyond me, but regardless, my problem is that you've chosen to label "Goths" as a whole as racist. (Full disclosure: I'm not a goth, don't know any, dont especially like goth music. I just figured that policies like Misplaced Pages is not a soapbox and no personal attacks would apply in situations like this.) Sergecross73 msg me 12:45, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

I see what you're saying and fully acknowledge that, yes, the text on my userpage is a generalization and that I've displayed a double standard here by 'being pissed' that someone would generalize all 'metal' listeners as rednecks, yet appear, by my wording, to generalize all 'goths' as racists. I realize this and will acknowledge the rules in the links you provided. --St.HocusPocus (talk) 22:09, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. I apologize, I did not mean for this to be such a big deal. I had originally intended only to get advice on how to talk to you, and then just talk to you privately about it, but I was instructed that, once I had mentioned you by name, I had to bring you into things. Sergecross73 msg me 12:39, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Another Editor's Possibly Threatening Others over AfD

I have started a few AfD's on some non-notable pages. One of the editors of the page, who is the subject of the article himself took to one of the AfD discussions and issues at minimum a somewhat untoward remark and at most a threat. You can read the discussion here. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Undertow Music, specifically, "your attempted deletion is motivated by personal vendetta. looking forward to seeing your next show at bentley's" (Bentley's is a local establishment in Champaign). I thought admins should be aware that the discussion of that AfD has gotten heated due to the subject of the article being involved. Other related AfD's are Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Bob Andrews (artist manager) and Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Don Gerard. Jamminjimmy (talk) 16:59, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

There was no threat issued or implied against Jamminjimmy. I found out he is a local musician who plays somewhat regularly in my town. i enjoy music. It was nothing more than a friendly gesture hoping to diffuse the situation. But this user does not tell the whole story on why he is choosing to target these articles for AfD. User fails to mention that he has personal and legal issues with the subject of one of his AfD requests. He joined wiki the same day he lost a court case against the subject of Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Don Gerard and began editing and then requested speedy deletion of that article. I disagreed and undid some of his previous edits. He then turned his attentions towards me and issued AfD request on the other two articles mentioned above. One of which I am the subject, the other is the record label where I work. He also opened a sockpuppet investigation against me that was closed after finding no abuse on my part. And now he is complaining about me here in this section. He's trying to harm my reputation because I disagreed with his edits. His only Wiki contribs are issuing these AfDs, the unfounded sockpuppet investigation against me and now the complaint here. Is vendetta the wrong word? Revenge? I'm not sure what else to call what he is doing here? If there's a better word or phrase for his actions I'd be happy to revise my comments. I don't know this person in real life. I never heard of him until all this wiki nonsense started and then I read about him on the local newspaper website. That's how I found out about the court case and his legal issues with the original subject of his wiki attentions. Should i post a link to that news story for context? i'm not sure of the policy on that. If you look at his contribs you'll find this user is clearly abusing wikipidea and using resources here to seek revenge. He should be banned or at least be blocked from editing the articles mentioned here. I would like no further contact or interactions with him. Please look at my wiki history going back to 2009. I have no previous conflicts or controversy until this user began harassing me a few days ago. Thanks for taking the time and I'm sorry you have to deal with stuff like this. Bob Andrews UTOW (talk) 08:38, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

What you're looking for is conflict of interest. I'd be more interested in how a 5 day old account knows the meaning of speedy deletions, PRODs, SPIs, let alone raise them. Blackmane (talk) 17:32, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Something else he should be checking out is WP:OUTING. How many pages does Bob get to identify Jamminjimmy on? --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 17:58, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

I think what is interesting is that the only "bothering" of Bob I can see here is asking for his page and company page for deletion via AfD as WP:AUTOBIO. Hackwayinteresting (talk) 02:36, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

bothering me by opening unfounded sockpuppet investigation against me, adding this frivolous complaint here, revenge AfD on articles only after i disagreed with his edits on the don gerard article. All of this is explained above. Noted that Hackwayinteresting is a new user and the only activity has been targeting these 3 articles and is now under SPI as being connected with Jamminjimmy Bob Andrews UTOW (talk) 14:28, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

i didn't know what WP:OUTING was until i just read that link. i'm not that familiar with how wiki works on stuff like that. any sort of conflict like this is new to me. i'm not trying to make an excuse. thanks for pointing that out. now i know. i'd be happy to edit whatever i posted that's considered outing. i'm not trying to break the rules or cause this user harm. i just want this person to stop bothering me. It should be noted that his username is also the name he's known by around town. which leads me to believe he wants the people he's hassling to know it's him. Bob Andrews UTOW (talk) 19:21, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Note that Hackwayinteresting is blocked for being sockpuppet of Jamminjimmy--Vigyani_talk 06:37, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

An Jamminjimmy has been blocked for socking. So perhaps this is worth closing until there is a repeat performance? Blackmane (talk) 10:39, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

STEFF1995S/Innano1

WP:INVOLVED is certainly applicable enough here that I'm not going to proceed with a block without consensus. When I opened Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of Romanian Top 100 top 10 singles in 2013, I thought I was dealing with a routine case of a good-faith editor using a bad source.

As I have dug into it, though, I have found that Innano1 is actually evading one of my old blocks. He admits at User:Innano1 that he is a resurrection of STEF1995S (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), whom I blocked 28 Dec 2010. Innano1 simply picked up four days later. His use of bad charts has been better, with one notable exception: he has started a blog at http://romaniantop100.blogspot.ro/ (see http://www.blogger.com/profile/02260736934288394777 for the details of the blog owner: clearly the same person) where he creates his own version of a defunct chart and then uses it as a source in Misplaced Pages articles.

I'm inclined to reinstate his indefinite block, but am concerned that other might see that as vindictiveness on my part. Thus, I invite someone else to do the honors.—Kww(talk) 16:56, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

I'm about to invoke WP:SILENCE to say that no one finds this a case where my level of involvement would interfere. I'll give it a few hours, but if no one comments, I will proceed.—Kww(talk) 16:33, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

• It would be a good block. User admits to being a block-evading sock, has deliberately manipulated external links to try and keep their dodgy edits in place, and I don't see how WP:INVOLVED should stop you from blocking someone who is this clearly evading an existing indef (and has done so for two and a half years) Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 09:18, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

In the absence of objection, his block has been reinstated.—Kww(talk) 15:52, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

• Good job. I've added the sockpuppetry template to both users' user pages, hope that wasn't too bad a thing to do as a non-admin! Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 17:35, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Canvassing by user:Casprings

user:Casprings Is canvassing editors in an RFC/U against me. While the audience is not completely biased, the tone of the message clearly is.

You took part in a discussion that dealt with user:Arzel, which took place here. There was a clear community consensus for a topic ban for user:Arzel. Many of the issue fell outside of discussion on TPM. With such a large community consensus and with arbitration committee only dealing with issues directly related to the TPM, I went ahead and started a WP:RFC/U, here. You are invited to endorse this and to take part in the WP:RFC/U.Casprings (talk) 18:18, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

Casprings writes the messages in a very negative tone against me and in a manner that I should be topic banned. I believe this to be in retaliation to my objections to a FA submission of theirs. Arzel (talk) 19:52, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

Casprings has been notified. Arzel (talk) 19:56, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

• WP:CANVASS is explicit that the wording must be absolutely neutral. I agree that this absolute requirement was not met in the many posts made, including non-neutral posts on ArbCom pages. In addition, the behavioural guideline states: More importantly, recruiting too many editors to a WP:dispute resolution can often make resolving the dispute impossible. Remember the purpose of a notification is to improve the dispute resolution process, not to disrupt it. Collect (talk) 20:22, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

• I fully agree with Collect's excellent comments. This is, without question, a canvassing violation by Casprings. Ironically, Caspring's failed in his apparently clever attempt to word his message in a way that would prevent a canvassing complaint. Because here we are. Please take note of how he said, "You are invited to endorse this..." but did not invite the editors to oppose. Not to mention of course his preface of "There was a clear community consensus for a topic ban". Overall, his invitation - to about 20 editors, no less (see his May 12 contributions log between about 18:00 and 18:20) - was not even close to neutral and I feel that a sanction of some type is certainly warranted. For the record, I do not know Arzel or Casprings at all; I have never crossed paths with either of them in any articles or discussions. --76.189.109.155 (talk) 20:56, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
• Agree that it is blatant canvassing. Niteshift36 (talk) 21:25, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

• I directed a single statement to every person that was involved in the discussion on user:Arzel, which took place here. My audience was not picked by me and was the audience that took part in the discussion. The message is simply a summery of the events and the course of action of the arbitration committee.Casprings (talk) 21:33, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

• Is there some argument that the words "clear consensus" do not fully describe the results of the discussion on user:arzel? The number of editors involved that voted for a topic ban and the arguments provided, do provide a clear consensus of the opinion of those who took part in the discussion. Providing what is a fact is not non neutral. Casprings (talk) 21:36, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
• For starters, you are drawing a conclusion and using it to persuade others to your point of view in your notification. That is a no-no for neutrality. " There was a clear community consensus..." etc. Had you knocked all the middle out, you would have been ok. Notifications should only be saying what is taking place and where, not why you think it is needed, or how you interpreted the previous discussion. Save that for the RFC/U itself. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 21:58, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
• I agree that this note about an RFCU violates the principle of neutrality, both the focus on a (supposedly) already established consensus for a topic ban and the invitation to endorse the filing. When I first saw the note on a user's talk page, I thought it was put there because Casprings wanted that particular user as a co-endorser (which I think would have been totally fine), but the note didn't appear neutral in any way, and shouldn't have been sent en masse to potential commenters. Iselilja (talk)
• Everything Dennis Brown said is right on the money. His comment, "Had you knocked all the middle out, you would have been ok", was precisely what I thought when I read the message. Doing that would've resulted in this neutral version: "You took part in a discussion that dealt with user:Arzel, which took place here. I went ahead and started a WP:RFC/U, here." All the obvious attempts at persusasion in between were highly inappropriate. By doing that, Casprings essentially poisoned the RFC/U before it even started. Also, sending it to 20 editors is a separate problem. 76.189.109.155 (talk) 22:21, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
• What Dennis Brown said. It's not your job to draw any conclusion. That act alone violates the neutrality requirement. Niteshift36 (talk) 22:27, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

• Comment You all make good points and I accept that I could have worded that better. My apologies to user:Arzel. I should have took more effort in wording my statement. Casprings (talk) 22:53, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
  • I'm not sure if that poisoned the well or not. It wasn't the worse violation by any means but it was a violation, and I can accept that it was a good faith mistake, but even good faith mistakes can have negative consequences. Not sure what the fix is here. While sanctions aren't necessary, there is some potential damage, and I'm assuming those notices are still on those talk pages. At the very least, I would expect you to go fix them. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 23:27, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

• Same as the above with an extra emphasis on one point. An wp:an or wp:ani on a vague/general behavioral claim is just a place where anyone who is willing to do mob violence and who wants the person gone or on reduced editing can show up and deceive/mislead with immunity. The result is not by any stretch of the imagination "community consensus", doubly so when someone is overreaching and giving their personal view on the result. North8000 (talk) 23:44, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

• Agree with Dennis... Casprings can try to reduce any potential damage by going back to the 20 editors he canvassed and either (1) edit the message for neutrality (as shown above), or (2) simply remove the message if it hasn't been replied to (or striking and explaining it, if it has). IMO, that would show his sincerity in fixing this problem and, as a result, put an end to this matter. --76.189.109.155 (talk) 00:41, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

• I have started, and will continue to work on it. Casprings (talk) 00:48, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

• Comment Each message was either deleted or struck. Without any objection, I am going to post the following message on all the talk pages:

You took part in a discussion that dealt with user:Arzel, which took place here. Based on that discussion, I started a WP:RFC/U, here.

That is a neutral statement that informs all parties of the WP:RFC/U. Any thoughts? Casprings (talk) 02:13, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

• I commend Casprings for accepting responsibility for his error and working hard to correct it as best he can. I see that he has gone back to the talk pages of all the editors he contacted and removed or struck, as needed. As far as Caspring's intention to go back and message all those editors again, I think it's a very bad idea. After everything we've been through with this issue, it's the last thing he should do. My suggestion is that he simply drop the issue and move on. He's done a great job of cleaning up the mess and I think he should just leave well enough alone. 76.189.109.155 (talk) 02:29, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

• Sounds reasonable to post as long as it is done to everyone who participated. Once out, it is hard to put the toothpaste back into the tube so the solution is always going to be less than optimal. All you can do is the best you can and learn from the mistake, just as all we can do is assume good faith based on your actions and willingness here. I appreciate the timely action with this. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 02:39, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

• It sounds like a number of people are trying to derail an RFC/U where there would appear to be substantial content on which to comment based on an asserted violation of a peripheral procedural aspect to the filing.

It should be noted that out of 19 votes on the AN/I, 14 supported a topic ban with 5 opposed. So the metaphors about "poison" are just diversionary rhetoric.--Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 07:55, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

• Your claim of diversion is bad faith and wrong. I didn't participate in that RFC and have nothing to gain. But I can see the blatant canvassing violation and the effect it has. Not only does the notice draw conclusions, it actually invites people to endorse his RFC/U. The implication is that if you aren't going to endorse it, you're not welcome. As I mentioned, I didn't participate in that RFC. I see other editors here that didn't, yet see the violation. You, on the other hand, did participate and voted against Arzel, then were quick to jump into the new RFC as well. Is it really a diversion, or do you just not like it? Niteshift36 (talk) 01:23, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

• Not at all, the suggestion relating to the RFC was made by Arbitrators during the ongoing TPm case. Since my interaction with Arzel is limited to the TPm, it might be objected that my endorsement based on that limited interaction is somewhat out of the scope of the suggestions relating to starting an RFC. The only issue with the notification by Caspring has been addressed by Dennis Brown in this thread, so the repeated cries of "poison" seem to represent a type of IDIDN'THEARTHAT and diverting attention from the main issue at hand of the RFC.

Most of us have been waiting for the decision of the Arbcom case before assessing what might be necessary subsequently, but in light of Casprings taking up the more widespread issues relating to Arzel's editing conduct in response to AGK's comment, it does not seem too far afield to pursue the RFC, which has generated a fair amount o interest already.--Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 04:07, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

• Let me start be pointing out that I've not opposed the notion of a RFC itself. I've opposed this one running as is. Since this is already in the ARBCOM domain, I think that this RFC is not needed, but I wouldn't necessarily fight it. So to call my "repeated cries" of poison IDIDN'THEARTHAT is really not AGF. I'm addressing Caspring's conduct and the results of it specifically....and THAT is the topic of this thread, isn't it? As I mentioned on the RFC talk page, I find the urgency and hardline stance interesting. An editor made the statement that "anycase people dont get out of trouble for disruptive editing because someone else makes a procedural mistake". Well getting Azrel "in trouble" appears to be the real goal for that editor. Regardless, in the real world, actual criminals are set free over procedural error. In the real world, tampering with a jury pool can set a murderer free. But in Wikipedialand, apparently jury tampering can't even bring a mistrial. Curious indeed. Niteshift36 (talk) 12:16, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

• I'm sure most of those editors hadn't even seen the message yet. I really feel that it would be better to let this matter rest now that Casprings has done such a good job of handling the problem. Why reignite the fire? But I'll defer to Dennis' judgement and experience if he disagrees. --76.189.109.155 (talk) 02:42, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

• I will go ahead and post the neutral message. I did learn that I must watch the neutral nature of these statements, not just post it to all that is involved. Again, thanks for bring the issues to my attention and doing so in such a logical manner. I appreciate everyone's input. Casprings (talk) 02:51, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

• Casprings, can you please wait to allow time for other editors to comment? It was only 40 minutes ago that you posted about your intent to re-message every editor. I don't see any need to rush. 76.189.109.155 (talk) 02:57, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

• I see that it's too late. Casprings posted here at 2:51 and then started his re-messaging blitz at 2:52. Ugh. I don't understand why you asked "Any thoughts?" if weren't going to give other editors a reasonable amount of time to respond. 76.189.109.155 (talk) 03:02, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

• Sorry. Didn't see your message. That said, each editor now has a neutral message.Casprings (talk) 03:05, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
• Will I saw that Dennis saw no issue and you deferred to his message. The other reason is that a WP:RFC/U has 48 hours until it closes, unless other users join. I made a mistake about sending it in an un-neatral manner, but those involved in the discussion needed the message ASAP. Casprings (talk) 03:15, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
• Going back and lining through it doesn't unring the bell. You got too over-eager to make your case and screwed up. Needed it ASAP? You mean you wanted it now, right? Those results you refer to sat for months inactive, why the hurry now? Wonderful that you accept that, but the better thing to do is stop pursuing this and, if it's as big an issue as you claim, someone else will start one and hopefully not poison the well the way you did. Niteshift36 (talk) 03:18, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
• Casrpings... yes, I agreed to defer to Dennis and was waiting for his reply. But he hasn't replied since I said that. And of course it didn't mean that other editors would have deferred to Dennis. And you started the RFC/U only 10 hrs ago, so there was absolutely no urgency. I honestly can't believe you re-messaged all those editors less than an hour after asking "Any thoughts?" here. --76.189.109.155 (talk) 03:25, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
• Agree with Niteshift36. It's best to withdraw the RfC/U. You can't unring a bell. The ANI Casprings refers to became the current ArbCom case. But Casprings didn't comment at the ArbCom when he had the opportunity. Why bring this action now? And the canvassing has poisoned the well, as Niteshift36 has noted. Arzel would not get a fair hearing on this. It should be administratively closed. Malke 2010 (talk) 05:48, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
• We now have two editors who agree with me that Casprings should drop the issue and move on. As I first said here about eight hours ago, "Casprings essentially poisoned the RFC/U before it even started." 76.189.109.155 (talk) 06:17, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

• As someone who received the original solicitation, I disagree that its content was sufficiently beguiling to warrant withdrawal of the associated request. Conversely, the tone of this very discussion is eerily reminiscent of those which have prompted such intervention in the first place.   — C M B J   08:02, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

• Removing them won't really help. I don't know about you, but I actually read edits made to my talk page. Even if you removed it, I'd still see it and the poison tree still exists. As for whatever this conversation reminds you of, I wasn't involved in any of those, so I'll presume you aren't making some blanket statement that includes me. Niteshift36 (talk) 12:24, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

• Comment I tried to work to make the RFC/U's opening statements as neutral as possible. Despite my admitted mistake of not watching the wording of my first statement, it still went to a controlled audience, the members who took part in the first discussion. Since those members already have some degree of knowledge of this, I disagree that the "bell cannot be unrung" and so forth. If there was damage done, it was relatively minor. I made a good faith error, which I am sorry about. However, I see no argument that my message, either first or second, will change the mind or taint the views of the audience it was sent to. I would argue that the RFC/U should be allowed to continue. There are issues there, at least in my view and the view of others, and those issues should be allowed to be explored. RFC/U is the best tool to explore the possible problems and shutting down the RFC/U only concerns to ignore the concerns of 14 editors who saw a problem. Casprings (talk) 01:43, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
• Comment I struck my endorsement of the RFC/U and supported it being closed. Again, I am sorry for the mistake of creating a non-neutral statement to start this process off.Casprings (talk) 14:32, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
• Comment I don't think there's anything more to be done here. Casprings made mistakes here but acknowledged and addressed them in a very friendly and cooperative manner. --76.189.109.155 (talk) 01:38, 15 May 2013 (UTC)
• Time to close? Since Casprings has not only acknowledged his errors, but I think learned a lot in the process, I agree that this should be closed. The RFC/U itself is closed. Perhaps an uninvolved admin will take care of this. Niteshift36 (talk) 12:46, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Edit warring over NPOV tag on Narendra Modi

This article has been subject to aggressive editing by tenacious editors over the past few months. At this point of time, there is an ongoing edit-war over whether the article should continue to retain a {{POV}} template on the top of the page. The discussion over the use of template on the article page, which is only supposed to be used as a measure of last resort, can be found here. This probably needs attention of an uninvolved party due to hostile revert-warring by an editor with biased views. — Nearly Headless Nick {c} 21:53, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

User:Maunus has gone ahead and posted notification messages on several discussion pages (regardless of their relevance) soliciting comments on a half-baked RfC that they have initiated on Talk:Narendra Modi. Obviously, the tone of their messaging amounts to canvassing, specially after their post on the Wikiproject on Pakistani politics discussion page. A list of these pages and the textual content is available below:

RFC on Nautrality at Narendra Modi
"Asking about whether the article on the prominent and controversial Indian Hindu nationalist politican Narendra is currently neutral."

• Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Pakistani politics (Not sure why this is relevant for this article?)
• Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Indian politics
• Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Politics
• Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Biography/Politics and government
• Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Gujarat
• Misplaced Pages talk:Noticeboard for India-related topics
• Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard.

— Nearly Headless Nick {c} 22:32, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

There is a current thread about this article at BLP/N, which is where it should be discussed. 76.189.109.155 (talk) 22:49, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

This thread is mainly about aggressive behaviour of an established user. — Nearly Headless Nick {c} 22:57, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

Pakistan is presumably relevant because this relates to a Hindu-Muslim issue. comments made by Modi regarding Afzal Guru, Modi being a Hindu nationalist and so forth. I probably would not have mentioned it there but, hey, more eyes for a RfC is surely not a bad thing? It is mentioned at WT:INB also, after all, by the same person. You, NHN, have accused me of ganging-up but your focus here appears to be Maunus. Feel free to add me to your list of "tenacious editors". Good luck with that: I have been trying to develop the article, including via initiation of numerous threads at Talk:Narendra Modi. I'm not always right, of course, but any article about any high-profile politician, especially one in India or Pakistan, is almost certain to attract POV. My interactions with Maunus are minimal, as they are with others who tend to get involved in modern-day issues of this sort, yet you suspect "ganging up" and "aggression" even when an issue is still shown as unarchived at WP:BLPN and there is a recent prior thread on the talk page.

I am not suggesting that you have a bias but I do think that you have taken your eye of the ball. I've done that and, hey, it happens but in the interval while you claim to have been watching there have been massive removals of arguably non-favourable content - mostly by Yogesh Khandke - that went undiscussed, was often reinstated by others (not me), and there was not a peep out of you. So, how long has your eye been off this particular ball? The RfC is A Good Thing. Maunus suggested it and I agreed. Later, much later, you said the same thing today. So what is your problem here? - Sitush (talk) 23:52, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

Just to make the point, and with no knowledge of NHN's real life or other contributions to Misplaced Pages, this series of edits took place on 18 April. NHN's last prior edit was 10 April and their next subsequent contribution was 12 May. A fair amount of what was removed in that block was reinstated in one form or another and I can't recall that I did any of that. Yet I am accused of ganging up? There is clearly a lot of contention here and, alas, I've never yet seen an opening statement for a RfC that I felt comfortably covered all of the bases. This one is no different but, hopefully, all will come out in the wash. - Sitush (talk) 00:20, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

• I applaud taking the issue to ANI, hopefully this can draw attention to the page from other editors than the clique of pro-Modi editors who have clearly had control of the page for a long time since I accidentally stumbled on it about a month ago. In contrast to editors like Headless Nick, and his companions at the talkpage I do not have a history of editing indian political topics, but simply stumbled on a biographic article that was so blatantly hagiographic that I started looking up the literature to provide some counterbalance. This page and others on hindu nationalist politics need acute attention from as many experienced editors as possible which is why I started the RfC and why I advertised it as widely as possible (which is clearly not canvassing under any definition of the term, and which is also not nonneutrally worded). As soon as other editors start chipping in I am fully content to leave that topic area, and let other editors form a consensus. But as long as it is maintained by a group of editors who appears to act as an extension of Modis own Public relations team, then someone will have to provide some balance. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 00:55, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

While I have in the past seen massive edit warring over obscure facts, this is the first time I'm seeing it happen due to a tag. Reinstating the tag by Maunus seems a bit childish to me, a lot like trolling. Clear consensus must first be established on this matter before we put up the tag. As I stated last night, the tag is being misused. Just because the tag exists, and several sections of the article are allegedly tilted for or against the subject, there is no reason why tag exists. Seems more like a case of 'The tag exists and there therefore must be inserted into the article'. --Rsrikanth05 (talk) 02:51, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Puting the notices on the notice boards, especially the way it was worded Asking about whether the article on the prominent and controversial Indian Hindu nationalist politican Narendra is currently neutral was to sensationalise the whole thing. Sitush, note that Afzal Guru was an Indian citizen, puting the tag on the pakistan politics notice board especially with such wording is clear mischief .-sarvajna (talk) 08:12, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

The Misplaced Pages guideline on canvassing explicitly states that the wording of the messaging should be neutral. Maunus, a former administrator who recently resigned "under a cloud", does not appear to care for such trivial guidelines on the encyclopedia and employs aggressive tactics into dominating and bullying other users. This effectively poisons the atmosphere and rules out any chance for productive discussions and dispute resolution. The behavioural guideline further states: "More importantly, recruiting too many editors for dispute resolution can often make resolving the dispute impossible. Remember, the purpose of a notification is to improve the dispute resolution process, not to disrupt it." Maunus's bad faith editing is laid bare by their employment of biased wording and posting of messages canvassing involvement in the dispute on pages such as Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Pakistani politics which is not relevant for this article. — Nearly Headless Nick {c} 08:28, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

The wording is neutral and this is not canvass. If you repeat the accusation of canvassing then I hope you will back up the accustation with action so that a real admin can come a long and tell you what is and isnt canvassing. Also your accusations of bad faithy are becoming pretty intolerable. From my very first edit to Modis article which you reverted (using twinkle! with no edit summary) you have been casting aspersions about my motives.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 11:29, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

The evidence has been documented above. You will also need to read WP:TALK to understand why it's not polite to double indent the comments you post. — Nearly Headless Nick {c} 08:36, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Perhaps. As I said, I would likely not have mentioned the RfC at the Pakistan project & I've never yet seen a well-formed RfC, although Afzal Guru was convicted and executed by India as a collaborator of Pakistani jihadists. I cannot read the mind of Maunus and was merely speculating as to why they did what they did. Perhaps I should not but when I am seemingly among those being accused of ganging-up by an admin who even after coming here seems note to have read recent discussions, well, ... some attempt to balance things out seems reasonable. - Sitush (talk) 08:32, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

How is Narendra Modi connected with Afzal Guru? Because he made some comments on the Congress government in relation to his treatment? Would that mean that everytime Manmohan Singh says something about an Indian national who has Russian collaborators, every dispute on his biography must be referred to the Wikiproject on Russian politics? Stop wikilawyering and read up WP:CANVASS. — Nearly Headless Nick {c} 08:55, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

You seem to have made unfounded accusations against me. You certainly have not been following the article development and talk page particularly well. That is your problem and it just happens that the manner in which you have failed to do this is working out to be favourable to Modi and his extremely effective PR machine (not my POV: his effectiveness as a political communicator is well-documented). I doubt that it is deliberate on your part but while I would not have done things in the way that Maunus has, I can understand the frustration that might arise in this situation and I note that the terms that Maunus used are ones that are commonly applied to Modi. Running here crying "foul" when you are clearly not completely au fait with what has been going on - the open BLPN thread, for example - might be ok in strict policy terms but the fault may not all be on one side here. You have not handled this well and you seem from the outset to have unwittingly being protecting a certain POV and hassling at least one person (ie: me) who has been working hard to improve things in an almost peer-review manner while generally sitting on the fence when it comes to the issues surrounding the 2002 Gujarat riots and how we depict Modi's cult of personality or whatever it is perceived to be. I, too, sometimes fail to handle things well but at least I acknowledge it. - Sitush (talk) 09:40, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Now you have changed the thread of the discussion from Afzal Guru/Pakistani politics Wikiproject to Narendra Modi's PR machinery. How is the chatter about his PR machinery relevant here? Your actions and words denote that you seem to be holding some strong opinions about the individual, which in by itself is not wrong, however to keep bringing up the same subject out of context over and over again and claiming that the person is so controversial that his article shall remain controversial forever does not really help the encyclopedia or contribute to the further development of the aticle. In the past month you have labelled the subject of the article as an "arch-manipulator", while also claiming that most other politicians are as well. How in the world is that even relevant for discussion on an article talk page? By extension of your logic, shouldn't the PR machinery of these other unnamed politicians be working against the subject of the article? More importantly, please drop the passive-aggressive attitude by trying to sideline discussions on the actual problem with behaviour of users on the article. Only recently you accused another editor of making "Modi-apparatchik type of edits". Are you trying to claim that the other editor is a paid agent of the Gujarat government? Do you think similar accusations can be made against you given your previous comments on Narendra Modi?

Frankly, this discussion has been rather exasperating and I am going to take a step back and do my own research on the article. You are welcome to do the same. — Nearly Headless Nick {c} 09:04, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

I do not see anything against you on the ANI, I wonder who is making accusations against whom, let us not getting into how effective one's PR machine is neither ANI nor[REDACTED] should be bothered about that.You have not handled this well and you seem from the outset to have unwittingly being protecting a certain POV Are you saying that the edit-waring of Maunus should be ignored? You seems to be more interested in protecting Maunus here, I agree that recently you have not gone into content disputes and the other clean up work that you are doing is surerly appreciated. There are more than one editor and many were not involved in the article like me since past felt that the tag was not required but Maunus seems to think other way. Do not consider yourself a sole torch bearer of NPOV. -sarvajna (talk) 10:02, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

I have provided links to the various accusations above. The timing and the wording obviously relate to me as much as to Maunus. Someone has not done their homework here before spraying around accusations of tenacious editing, POV and ganging-up. - Sitush (talk) 11:39, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

• Given the substantial amount of accusations leveled against me here from editwarring to canvassing, "ganging up" and "mischief", I would like to ask what administrative action is being sought in this thread?·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 11:41, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

• If someone adds a neutrality tag and provides evidence on the talk page, then you need consensus for its removal. I see an RfC in progress so we should just let that run and close this discussion before somebody says something they're going to regret later. I'd do it myself but .... --regentspark (comment) 13:32, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

If you have really cared to see the RFC does not give any reason or evidence about why the article is not neutral, rather it asks a question "is the article neutral" so we are not sure. Having NPOV tag and giving the current RfC as the reason is meaningless.-sarvajna (talk) 05:24, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Sorry Sarvajna, but flogging this on ANI is a losing approach. It would have been better to have focused your energies on modifying the RfC (because what is or is not neutral is a good question to ask) than to try to give this affair a behavioral flavor by bringing it up on ANI (I know, you didn't bring it up). I suggest you go back to the talk page (where, imo, your point is actually a good one) and deal with the issue there.--regentspark (comment) 18:52, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

User claiming to be the leader of South Africa's Abolition of Income Tax and Usury Party wanting to remove article.

User:Kehlstein, who in an edit summary claims to be Stephen Goodson, the leader of the party, is repeatedly removing sourced controversial/negative material from the article, and requesting/demanding that it be removed. To me the material seems properly sourced but I would appreciate if an administrator took a look at it, and also decided what to do to Kehlstein/Goodson. "User:Kehlstein" is a single-purpose account that has only ever edited Abolition of Income Tax and Usury Party and Stephen Goodson, meaning that there's a COI too, and has been given a final warning for repeatedly deleting the material. Thomas.W (talk) 07:00, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

• Well, they've been given a final warning and haven't blanked since. Shirt58, operating under the alias "Peter", has left them a note; let's see how that goes. If they return to Goodson, that article should probably be tagged; if they return to that party article and edit like they did before, they should be blocked indefinitely. Also, good luck to you, South Africa. Drmies (talk) 15:23, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
  • That should actually be "Peter, operating under the alias 'Shirt58' "... Pete aka --Shirt58 (talk) 13:37, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

A new user, Paardekraal, has just popped up and edited Stephen Goodson, in effect identifying himself as Stephen Goodson in the edit summary of one of his edits to the article. I have reverted his edits, issued a {{uw-coi}} to Paardekraal and tagged the article with Template:COI. But that's as far as I'll go, so from now on it's your problem. Thomas.W (talk) 21:46, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Kehlstein filed with CU request. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 21:57, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Kehlstein and Paardekraal have been confirmed to be one and the same in the SPI. Confirming that Stephen Goodson has been abusing multiple accounts while trying to remove (well sourced) negative info about himself. So I guess an indef block on User:Kehlstein would be logical, and well deserved. Thomas.W (talk) 11:03, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Legal threat in edit summary at Stephen Goodson

Paardekraal (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

User:Paardekraal, who self-identifies as the subject of this WP:BLP , has posted an obvious legal threat in a recent edit summary . User is notified. - Sperril (talk) 06:26, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

This is definitely BLP territory, so I would ask where is the source showing the article subject is a holocaust denial. The legal threat is a separate issue but we need to iron out both. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 06:29, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

I did a cursory examination and the relevant sections of the article and they appear to me to be well-sourced, but I would certainly welcome further review. I have never edited this article and have no idea who this person is. I found the legal threat while patrolling the contributions of new accounts. Sperril (talk) 06:39, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

I agree that the article is well-sourced. I also listened to the interview on youtube, and, if anything, the sources understate his anti-semitic views.--I am One of Many (talk) 07:14, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

I think it's important to be able to source exactly the extent of his views. The holocause is a big lie is well sourced, but has he ever stated he admired Hitler? I was trying to find that part. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 07:24, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

It would be better to say "admiration for Hitler's policies" .--I am One of Many (talk) 07:43, 15 May 2013 (UTC)]

Regarding the legal threat, I have given Paardekraal a standard-issue NLT block. Haven't looked into the verifiability or otherwise of the holocaust denial claim. Yunshui 雲‍水 07:51, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Judging by this edit summary User:Kehlstein is also Stephen Goodson (in the edit summary Kehlstein identifies himself as the leader of South Africa's Abolition of Income Tax and Usury Party, that is Stephen Goodson). Kehlstein has been used for deleting controversies and negative info about Goodson from the article about the party (see current discussion here at ANI). Thomas.W (talk) 08:38, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Kehlstein and Paardekraal have been confirmed to be one and the same in this SPI. Confirming that Stephen Goodson has been abusing multiple accounts while trying to remove (well sourced) negative info about himself. Thomas.W (talk) 11:03, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

The Pacific (TV miniseries) edit war

The situation at The Pacific (TV miniseries) is getting out of control, and requires the intervention of other editors and administrators. As I am involved in the dispute, I will try to give as complete an accounting of what has happened as possible, acknowledging that I am, in part, to blame for the edit war.

Niemti made a series of bold changes to the article, but offered no edit summaries or explanation for the changes he made. I reverted, stating in my edit summary: "Such an extensive rewrite and rearrangement of the article requires an explanation; discuss on talk." I then posted on the talk page, stating that I did not find the edits helpful and hoping that we could discuss the matter.

Niemti did not respond until the next day, posting a series of messages, in which, instead of showing a willingness to discuss the issues, he stated that they "totally obvious for anyone who has edited Misplaced Pages for a while" and questioning if I understood the meaning of the word "synopsis". He then reverted to his preferred version of the article. I responded to his talk page post, stating that his attitude was not helpful, and citing WP:BRD, I reverted his changes again.

Fearing the situation was getting out of control, I posted a message on PresN's talk page, asking him to keep an eye on the discussion. PresN never responded, but Niemti did, posting a series of messages in which, frankly, the sarcasm and attitude get even worse, and in which he admits to canvassing to get an uninvolved editor --- "I just informed JTBX (who had such problems with this user before) about this discussion, so he can tell more, hopefully leading to some action regarding this problem (it's about time)." --- to join in the fight.

Today, he reverted again and I reverted back, which I think puts us both at WP:3RR.

What I would like to see happen here is for other editors to join in the discussion, for Niemti to curb his attitude, and for us to move forward in improving the article. The latter may only be able to happen if Niemti and I stay on the sidelines. The atmosphere now is so combative, I am not sure we can work together at all. But, the situation cannot be allowed to continue. ---The Old Jacobite_{The '45} 15:58, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Wow, that is a bold choice for Niemti, who has just narrowly avoided being banned more than once due to civility and OWN issues. He's on extremely this ice and is well aware. Sergecross73 msg me 16:03, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

TheOldJacobite is owning basically every article he's watching, reverting any kind of edits (I wasn't even inseting literally anything, all of it was just basic copyedit of a badly written article) unless the edits are explained to him for a reviev and accepted by him, which he calls "consensus", in a violation of Misplaced Pages:Ownership of articles. He does completely unilaterally, without explaining his problems (at all, instead simply claiming that "none of those changes seemed necessary or helpful" without elaborating) and he does also even in violation of 3 reverts rule (). This need to stop. --Niemti (talk) 16:07, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Is there a reason why you're not following WP:BRD? Or waiting until there's a consensus on the talk page before reinstating your information? Sergecross73 msg me 16:08, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

"Consensus" with what, with whom? Do you call "consensus" a supposed necessity for getting an approval for performing even a simple copyedit work from someone who thinks he owns articles (plural, as in multiple articles, LOTS of them) on Misplaced Pages, and so he needs to review everything before any change can happen? copyedited literally thousands of articles, I don't remember having problems with aquiring "consensus" for that from anyone else. --Niemti (talk) 16:16, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

In general, with sources or consensus, if someone is challenging it, then your answer is yes, it is necessary. (Excluding bad faith trolling type stuff, but that doesn't seem to be the case here.) Sergecross73 msg me 16:21, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

What consensus? Consensus for having a badly written article? Consensus for my edits being in fact "necessary or helpful", while it wasn't even said why he thought they were not (and all of them)? That's ownership and demands for edits to be explained, reviewed by him and then (maybe) approved, which is discussed in Misplaced Pages:Ownership of articles (and which needs to be stopped). And once again - its's not just about me or this article. --Niemti (talk) 16:26, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Consensus for your proposed changes. Quite frankly, upon looking further, both of you are acting unreasonable. One of you demands and explanation for the changes, without stating why he needs it, (Jacobite) while the other refuses to give an explanation, when it would just be easier to explain why you made the actual changes (Niemti). Sergecross73 msg me 16:35, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Once again, it's not just about this article or me, it's about his ownership of multiple articles and behaving like that in regards to other editors as well. Also, as for "and OWN issues" - it was regarding the user who is now banned precisely for literally screwing up articles (I was right about him all the time), a completely different situation as you see. --Niemti (talk) 16:45, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Yes, but part of it is about this article, and you avoiding a real response on that is exactly what I'm talking about here. Neither one of you are discussing the heart of the problem, you're both just barking out vague questions to the other one, and then just responding with more questions. One asks "Why no edit summary?" and the other just asks "Why do I need one?". If you guys would start answering each others questions maybe you'd get somewhere. Sergecross73 msg me 17:32, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Edit summaries are optional, while ownership of articles (and it's not about just this one) is not allowed and is the real problem here. It's hard to say how much damage he did with indiscriminately/whimisicaly reverting people's edits like that, apparently for a long time (years?). --Niemti (talk) 17:52, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

You're missing the point, edit summaries were just an example. My point is that one of you asks "Why did you do that?" while the other just asks back "Why did you do that?" Both of you need to explain your edits to one another on the talk page. You're both too busy cooking up another "zinger" to discuss anything of substance. Beyond that, you haven't given any proof of this huge, multi-year/article spanning OWN conspiracy you keep referring to. You gave a single dif showing one other time you disagreed with him. You're going to need more proof before people start listening to that, otherwise there's not much to discuss yet there... Sergecross73 msg me 18:04, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

It's because I know this guy, and I decided to not play his game (someone got to make a stand, and I'm glad it went here). Okay. Happy now? Now, the "OWN conspiracy" (at least 215 reverts out of 500 last edits). --Niemti (talk) 18:11, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Okay, I need to run out the door, but two quick points- 1, I would not describe a back-and-forth with 1 revert on one side and two on the other as an "edit war", and 2, the canvass accusation is a bit rich seeing as it was quite clear that you only contacted me vs any other admin because you thought I would take the not-Niemti side in any argument. --PresN 16:18, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

2 reverts on my side (plus edits), 3 on his. --Niemti (talk) 16:20, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Although Niemti does have a fairly abrasive approach to people sometimes and that has gotten him into a lot of hot water. In this case, his edits did indeed expand the article. Sure, edit summaries would have helped but aren't required and wholesale reverting the, what I think are, constructive changes to the article was not the way to go about it. Quite frankly, the article should be reverted back to the version post-Niemti's changes and a discussion kicked off on the talk page rather than going the classical BRD route since there was nothing untoward in Niemti's edits. Blackmane (talk) 16:34, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

That's not enough. He needs to cease ownership on ALL articles. As I said, that many, many articles where he constantly blocks attempts by other editors to improve them, demanding "consensus" with him, and calling his versions "the stable version" ("stable", because he reverts back to it). I don't think I even have to say how harmful this is, and it needs to stop right now. --Niemti (talk) 16:38, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Can you show some difs for this? Sergecross73 msg me 16:40, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

and the discussion above it (JTBX can tell you more about it). Also notice how he never even responded (and so his "stable versions" remains). Apparently, Gareth Griffith-Jones is also in it. I'm pretty sure just glancing over their edit history might reveal lots of it. (I can also recall his semi-automatic revert of my cleanup-rewrite of one of Clint Eastwood-starring spaghetti westerns.) --Niemti (talk) 16:52, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Given that their names have been mentioned, I've left a notification on JTBX and Gareth Griffith Jones. Blackmane (talk) 17:06, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

This film was A Fistful of Dollars (Sargecross wanted me to find it, so I did). --Niemti (talk) 18:21, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Some other examples of untold damage done by The Old Jacobite to Misplaced Pages:

• The writing is horrible. Portions of sentences like "tries more and more drastically" give the appearance that this was written by a middle school student on lunch break. RepublicanJacobite, from the edit history and talk page, you seem to have longstanding WP:OWNership issues with this article. That wouldn't be so bad if the writing weren't quite so dreadful. My edits improve the quality of the writing. BRD is an essay, not a policy, and not an excuse to block people from improving your favorite articles or changing them from your preferred version. - Balph Eubank ✉ 20:40, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

• It appears that this artice is in need of clean up, however, any edits done to improve the article are being reverted and at many times without cause. For example, any edits explcitly stating that William Wallace did not have an affair with Isabella of France are often reverted along with any edits that explicitly state that Edward III was not the son of Wallace. Instead, the article has a vague passage that Isabella was 3 years old at the time leaving the reader to infer that that an affair could not have happened without clear indication that the two were never involved even later in life. There is no reason for such a run around. This , , and are just a few examples of this. In fact, even adding the fact this was historically inaccurate was a point of tension with the first mention of it being reverted without good cause despite its factual accuracy as seen . Additionally, this article contains certain statements which seem bold to state without any reliable sources to back them up. An example is that the article makes the connection that the Stone of Destiny was returned to Scotland as a result of this film. A citation is going to be needed for this claim. Additionally, for some reason Anglophobia has its own section despite it's light content and even though there a cultural effects section where it could be merged into. I'm afraid it looks like two editors have taken strict ownership of this article based on edit history and WP:DR will be the next step if such reverts continue without valid explanations. TheLou75 (talk) 13:56, 19 September 2012 (UTC) (the other self-proclaimed owner in question: Erik)

• Mr. T.O.J., I tend to disagree with what your saying. This particular article is not a "collaborative project". If it were, you would allow me to edit without reverting my changes giving no plausible explanation. Aside from one section, the Awards section, you haven't compromised on any of my changes. You constantly ignore everything I've been saying. If anything, I've been the only one making compromises so far accomodating a portion of your selected complaints. Your also not making any effort to review the content that I put forth. It doesn't take that long to view a few small sections of improvement. I'm not asking to you to review a novel. You are exhibiting clear ownership qualities in relation to this page. A portion of what your saying is also incorrect. There hasn't been "multiple editors" who disagree with my changes. Its been entirely you and another editor who neither seem to have their facts straight after being proven wrong. I've been more than patient waiting for your response to the improvements. You have yet to do so. Do you have anything helpful to add or say to the points and issues above that I mentioned? Or do you want to keep on ignoring what I have to say, and continue doing nothing? Your not cooperating. Moovi (talk) 19:00, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

And so on. --Niemti (talk) 18:38, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Niemti, while we understand you feel strongly about these matters, some recent issues have given plenty of editors reason to drag you to ANI and other places for slight or moderate civility concerns. I endorse bringing any content disputes to DRN in the future for the simple reason of opening it up to new eyes and documenting cases in which can prove your patience and dedication in future problems. Niemti, you do acknowledge your short temper, but it would be in everyone's best interest to get a centralized mediation on any issues concerning your editing for the time being. We want to help, but if you are not being calm and remaining civil then the community is going to ostracize you and you will be perpetually skating on thin ice. You do good work, but I think you need to remove yourself from conflicts and substitute in other editors when your changes are contested. I frequent DRN now and it is a smooth if albeit slow process. In order to prevent yourself from being blocked over your questionable and sometimes hostile responses, I think a little 'editor incubation' needs to occur and your arguments and defense of those edits need to be made by proxy. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 00:09, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

It is a condition of participation in Misplaced Pages that editors be willing to discuss edits and collaborate in a constructive manner on improvements and changes and fixes.

BOTH EDITORS here need to remember this. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 01:22, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

"Both"? Like it's only about me? How many more examples of "Mr. T.O.J." owning various film/series articles and blocking other editors' work do you want me to provide? Because I can do it. --Niemti (talk) 07:45, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

I didn't, "Mr. T.O.J." did. I use this occasion to highlight the enormous damage that he did to a large number of Misplaced Pages film-related articles (blocking many people from working on and improving the articles). --Niemti (talk) 07:49, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Alright then!

• Well, I beg to disagree with RepublicanJacobite's assertion of article ownership with mass reverts. He didn't think someone would one day challenge his monopoly-type authority. He basically came in there, sort of did a whole bunch of mass reverts, giving unplausible reasons for doing so, and being proved wrong on virtually every count. He's attempted to use false reasoning as a poor excuse for being opinionated. The DVD version of the film can be used as a reference as has been done so in FA nominated articles like American Beauty. The overuse of images is complete nonsense. He was upset that an image for example, appeared in the Plot section. There's no Film Project rule that says you can't have a photo in that section to illustrate a character relationship. Other FA articles have had them in the past. All the photos include complete usage rationales. As an example, a similar photo/rationale is present on the Avatar film page: http://en.wikipedia.org/File:Avatarjakeneytiri.jpg Yet it wasn't deleted. User Erik has decided to jump on Republican's bandwagon and sort of give an unplausible explanation for removing the pics saying they were not "compelling enough" reasons. User Erik is simply giving a double standard. I've placed the correct rationales: low resolution, no free equivalent exists, copyrights are owned by Columbia Pictures, and were used to illustrate the relationship between characters in the film. I'm considering reverting that edit. Its completely unjustified. The friendship piece with Glenn and Costner details a character development relationship that occured during the filming of Silverado. It needs an expansion. Does that mean that this particular piece should be deleted in the meantime? I mentioned already the issue of the Blu-ray/DVD info regarding Amazon on the talk page. The reference is not being used for reasons of spam. It was used for one precise point: to note a particular release date. Websites like Amazon or Barnes & Noble are not user edited. Again, I don't believe there is a Film Project rule that asserts you can't use an ecommerce site just to simply reference a release date. And if I might add, Alien vs. Predator, another FA article does reference Amazon for a piece of content too. Cite number 39. DeWaine (talk) 14:15, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
• Frankly, I am surprised, Andy, that you did not trot out your old "article ownership" accusation, as you seem to do every single time we have any interaction. ---RepublicanJacobiteTheFortyFive 16:14, 6 October 2011 (UTC) (Andy = Andy Dingley, another user who was repeatedly being blocked by "Mr. T.O.J.", back then posting as RepublicanJacobiteTheFortyFive)

That's seven different users (me, JTBX, Balph Eubank, TheLou75, Moovi, DeWaine, Andy Dingley) in at least eight different articles, but the very some problem. Enough already for admins to stop ignoring it, or talking about us "both"? Or how many more examples I need to give you to get up and act, after this has continued for a long time? (I wonder, how many people got their edits summarily reverted and didn't even know?) --Niemti (talk) 08:11, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

That's why RFC/U exists. Your tone and conduct show little civility and a clear frustration with the user, but responding in kind is liable to get you punished because most of us are more familiar with your actions then Jacobite's at this point. When deciding between two wrongs, who do you think is going to get off easier? No one? The quiet one or the loud one? I don't know, but you should seriously consider your tone in your responses. Even now it sounds like you are blaming admins for not being proactive with a situation that were unaware of. 7 editors having a problem with Jacobite's alleged OWN is exactly what RFC/U is for. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 12:07, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

In general, one can be a nearly complete asshole on Misplaced Pages for many, many years before anything is done about it. The keyword here is nearly and it translates as extreme rudeness but avoiding extreme incivility. 5.12.68.204 (talk) 12:13, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Not to be off topic, but 5.12.68.204 is blocked for ban evasion. No link to who it is, but should it be collapsed? ChrisGualtieri (talk) 15:03, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

So how can I get you more familiar with this huge amount of damage to Misplaced Pages? How long would I keep quoting the various other people saying the same thing, before it stop being seen as only between "us both", as it was only my edits in one article being reverted for no reason? I think the situation is just extremely serious, and actually much worse than I originally thought. It's just too bad it's seemingly only me who thinks so (here and now). --Niemti (talk) 17:42, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Also it's not just "7 editors", it was just 7 of my examples (random ones). That's a world of difference, you know? I could list many more people who were reverted like that for no good (or simply just no) reason and somehow didn't like it too. That was just a few examples, because at one moment it was thought here like it was just about mey edits and in one article (while even I've got reverted like that by him in more than one article), or maybe just me and JTBX (and JTBX who was called over here can take it over from me, because now yes, I'm just frustrated, I excepted to see a launch of substantial effort to repair at least some of the damage done, maybe by estabilishing and contacting all the wronged users and encouraging them to now go back and restore their edits, and turns out it's nothing there even "actionable" at all). --Niemti (talk) 18:03, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

• Comment That's quite the laundry list of offenses you have there, Niemti. Regarding the discussion, I think everyone can agree that your edit was sound. Your civility toward Jacobite, however, was not entirely sound. That being said, I see nothing actionable for either side. Laundry lists like this tend to generate more heat than light. Herr Kommisar 12:56, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Really? So this "laundry list" is still not enough for it be "actionable"? It just doesn't matter how many (I don't know how many, but I have a very good reason to believe it was LOTS) constructive edits were lost because of that - the work of people who didn't even know they were reverted (and they were reverted little to NO reason), people who thought it's not worth it to fight for their good edits to be approved by a self-appointed owner of many articles (I don't know how many, maybe very many), people who still fought (and I quoted the people who fought) but lost (and I've seen it too)? How many articles are kept in a bad state only because of that - not because people didn't try, and didn't work on them, sometimes the best, but because they were simply not allowed (contrary to the idea of "anyone can edit" and the anti-ownership rules), and all their work was destroyed! And you still refuse to do anything about it? I must say it's quite...surprising. I excepted something else. But, well. I can't say I didn't bring it to public attention. Now it's all your ball, I did my part and I'm out (but severely disappointed). --Niemti (talk) 17:42, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

I don't know about others, but I'd be a lot more motivated to assist you if you weren't so condescending and abrasive every step of the way. We're all volunteers here; why help someone who is so difficult themselves? You've been accused of OWN issues a ton in your time here, and you refuse to address anything said about you, you just point the finger and anyone/everyone else - every single time. Life's too short to assist angry people who wouldn't appreciate my efforts anyway. Sergecross73 msg me 19:33, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

No I wasn't (unless by this guy, and now you too know this guy). Anyway I provided a plenty of leads to investigate (into something potentially very serious, or at least relatively, one might not call anything on Misplaced Pages a serious matter), and so my role ends here. (But you can call me if it's needed to give even more examples.) --Niemti (talk) 15:13, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

You're not seriously denying the fact that you've been accused of WP:OWN issues in the past, right? Because it was one of the central issues brought up in your recent RFC/U. Sergecross73 msg me 15:25, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Which was about AnddoX being AnddoX. How's your own experience with AnddoX? Please tell me, I wonder. --Niemti (talk) 15:29, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Did you even check the links? Did you really think I wouldn't? Per your RFC/U: An IP, not Andox. Masem, not Anndox, Birdies, not Anndox. Etc etc. Come on, stop the misdirections.... Sergecross73 msg me 15:36, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Maybe you "stop the misdirections". OK? And now I'm really done, and I hope someone will take this seriously, as it should be, and act on it in a proper manner. Out. --Niemti (talk) 15:44, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

It wasn't meant to be misdirection, it was an explanation in response to your "outrage" how no one's really listening to you here. No one wants to waste their time helping out someone who is difficult and condescending every step of the way, and has been accused of doing the same exact thing (ownership issues) in the recent past. Feel free to continue to be bewildered and "severly disappointed" with Wikpedia, but the truth is that you keep shooting yourself in the foot by the way you act and treat others. Sergecross73 msg me 16:10, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

I wonder if you would ever understand it's not about "helping out" me, but about the others who were and still are being artitrarily blocked from editing by him for no valid reason - which I thought I made clear again and again. (And no, no one has ever accused me "the same exact thing (ownership issues)" on any talk page like that, as far as I rememeber. But hey, keep on misdirecting.) --Niemti (talk) 17:22, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

RFC/U is that way. Thanks. Sergecross73 msg me 17:32, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

User:Sol1

I've just blocked new account User:Sol1, and I'd be happy for my action to be checked here - and for some other eyes on the issue, as I need to head off shortly. Sol1 has been making rapid-fire changes to Misplaced Pages's use of the names of well-known scientists etc. I first saw changes of the use of Galileo's name to use either his full name of "Galileo Galilei" or just the surname "Galilei" - , and more. On further checking, I saw Sol1 is rapidly changing lots of uses of famous scientists historical figures' names to use their full names - "Goethe" to "Johann Wolfgang von Goethe" - , Kepler, Einstein, Heisenberg, Schrödinger to full names - etc. And there are lots more - see Special:Contributions/Sol1 I left a couple of messages pointing out that we use common names and that he needs to talk if he wishes to make such wide-ranging changes, but I got no response and he was continuing at a fast pace. So I've issued a block to stop him and get his attention. So, can I please request the following?

• Check my actions and see if you think they were reasonable
• Have a look over Sol1's contributions and help revert if you think they are unreasonable
• See if you think there is anything suspicious about a brand new user making such rapid-fire large-scale changes?

Thanks -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 19:32, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Weird. Good block. User is also misusing the minor edit flag. --John (talk) 19:37, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

FYI the minor flag is automatically added for page moves. None of these were, and I really see nothing wrong with deciding that is better to remove a redirect, and that is certainly a minor edit – reverting this edit, done by above user, was absurd. Galileo has been a redirect to the scientist's full name since 12 September 2011‎. Goethe has been a redirect to Johann Wolfgang von Goethe since 9 September 2008. I would suggest unblocking, with an apology. Apteva (talk) 22:47, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Note. The first diff that was reverted was I think changing Galileo to Galilei, which was correctly reverted, except that removing the second link should have been left. So some of the edits were questionable, but most of them just seem to be removing redirects. They used Galileo instead of Galilei for the pipe in the diff which I cited, but Galilei earlier. Apteva (talk) 23:04, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

I do not have to check to see if our article is at Einstein or Albert Einstein. Apteva (talk) 23:06, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Both of you are admins and are making edits like this one? Apteva (talk) 23:22, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

We actually have a guideline that discourages "fixing" redirects as Sol1 has been doing; WP:R#NOTBROKEN. John's reverts were perfectly valid, since they restored the status quo links. As regards the block, yes, seems fine to me - whilst discussion is obviously preferable sometimes the only way to get someone to stop is to actually stop them, and that seems to have been the case here. Yunshui 雲‍水 07:08, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

I am aware that redirects do not need to be fixed, and that edits are very expensive, but that does not excuse reverting a perfectly valid fix, thus creating yet another edit that needs to be fixed yet again when something else warrants the expense of an edit. Best just to leave the edits that have been done, and only fix the ones that actually need fixing, like changing Galileo to Galilei. The editor was inconsistent with that one, sometimes using one, sometimes the other. But if someone has already removed the redirect at Einstein, there is no excuse for putting it back in without piping it instead. The article is at Albert Einstein, Sol1 changes the link from Einstein to Albert Einstein, the correction is not to put it back to Einstein, but if the article actually reads better using Einstein instead of Albert Einstein, change it to Albert Einstein|Einstein, instead of back to Einstein. A restore does not "undo" an edit, it is a new edit and is just as expensive as any other edit. Talk about biting the newcomers though, but it is pretty uncommon for a newcomer to do 500 edits the first day. Apteva (talk) 09:02, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

WP:R#NOTBROKEN does actually say "It is almost never helpful to replace ] with ]", so that does appear to support ] rather than ] - and it gives reasons why a simple redirect is better -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 20:21, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

That section needs to be less dogmatic. I simply can not support the concept that writing ] is ever preferable to writing ], nor can I support any edits that change one to the other in either direction without doing something else as well. The situations where a redirect is good, is if there is no article about Einstein, and it is redirected to say Relativity until an article is written, but once it is, the redirect can be corrected. We move article names all the time, leaving behind redirects. We fix the double redirects, but I see no reason for not cleaning up the rest eventually. In any event it is clear that the consensus is against a user doing nothing but fixing redirects. Apteva (talk) 02:04, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

I see that section is already under discussion. From the talk page "Replacing piped links with links to 'simple' redirects (alternate names, for example) is pointless, or at least not the point of WP:NOTBROKEN. Clarification may be in order, yes" Apteva (talk) 02:10, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

This is not the forum for getting policy pages changed, but as it stands at the moment, it supports John's simple reverts -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 07:23, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Regarding brand new user: it seems they're quite experienced at dewiki. But that makes it even more worrying that they didn't discuss first, and didn't respond to talk page messages. — HHHIPPO 07:02, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

And judging by the edit history he/she makes the exact same kind of edits there, including moving articles without previous discussion and marking virtually everything as a minor edit, whether it was one or not. So it's surprising that he's only been blocked once on de-wiki, for edit-warring in 2008. Thomas.W (talk) 08:53, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Ah, maybe that explains why they have not given any indication of having seen the user talk page message (never mind the fact that the orange bar is gone). Maybe they understand little to no English, but do know how to click on "what links here" from a redirect, and how to cut and paste the article name in and hit save. That also explains why they likely did not know that in English, Galileo is commonly known by their first name, not their last name. Germans tend to like things well ordered and it is possible that redirects are frowned on more widely at de. I do know there are vast differences between the two wiki's. Apteva (talk) 09:02, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

• Good block. We'll have to wait and see if they are interested in a discussion on their talk page. — Nearly Headless Nick {c} 10:36, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

We'll have to see what happens, but I've noticed that his reluctance to reply isn't limited to English. He's been involved in five discussions on the German Misplaced Pages's Vandalismusmeldung (Vandalism report) page, and only commented on the most recent of them. The substance of the reports will require someone with better German than me. SteveMcCluskey (talk) 21:25, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

I had a look (German is my mother tongue, but I have to admit German wikispeak is not). It's a similar picture as here, tons of edits, many useful, but also many at the edge of policy and many that should have been discussed before. In two of the six ANI cases he was only marginally involved, the others are somewhat similar to this one. I guess see what happens is the right thing to do. — HHHIPPO 22:15, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Logged out bot?

I think the RfC notification bot is currently editing while logged out; see ]. Is that an error, or am I misunderstanding something? If I understand the instructions on that User talk:2A02:EC80:101:0:0:0:2:8, I'm supposed to softblock it to force the bot to log in. But I don't want to mess something up by doing so, so I thought I should ask here first. Qwyrxian (talk) 03:29, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

User:Anomie has softblocked 2A02:EC80:101:0:0:0:2:0/124 which covers that individual IP. Legoktm (talk) 03:45, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Apology

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I am certainly learning about what is considered proper behavior here and what is not. In the future I will never be engaging in debate about other people’s views, only making suggestions for better wording. I abhor a culture where attacking others is acceptable and refuse to ever fall into becoming part of that culture again.

For offending other editors, I am truly sorry. This should be a collaborative effort not a battleground. My intention in coming to ANI was to find a way to reduce conflict, not create additional conflict.

My reading of BLP seems to be at odds with that of some other editors on Misplaced Pages, but some of the editors most vocal about my understanding have been roundly criticized for their explanations of their understanding of BLP: . I believe strongly that in all places (not just WP) people should not have negative things written about them unless it can be very well sourced and couched in appropriate language and that all people should be considered innocent until proven guilty. We also need to be very careful to accurately reflect subject's views and what they say. Misrepresenting a person's views (in an article, or those of another editor) is never a good idea. To the extent that I have not followed BLP as understood by most Wikipedians, I apologize.

For my further education, does anyone want to opinion on this edit and this edit . Is this how we improve articles? Legacypac (talk) 04:50, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Those both appear to be the same edits, but it is never appropriate to discuss another editor on an article talk page, no matter what they might have done. That is what user talk pages are for, the article talk page is solely and only for discussing improvements to the article. Apteva (talk) 05:14, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Good catch Apteva, thanks. I just updated my post with the correct link (1st one) in the chronological order.Legacypac (talk) 07:29, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Same problem. On Commons it is absolutely forbidden to name an editor in a section heading. That entire section should be deleted, as it was, six minutes later. Apteva (talk) 08:22, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

And to which I made no objection. Thought I was providing a community service. Didn't know about that rule. Now I do. HiLo48 (talk) 08:49, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Our Talk page guidelines do not say enough about the subject. They leave too much to expectation. Article talk pages are for discussing the article, user talk pages are for discussing user conduct and any content issues that are peculiar to that editor, like above. Basically there are two methods of group decision making, parliamentary and consensus. Neither allow directing comments to or about participants. Parliamentary directs all comments to the moderator/clerk/chair. Consensus directs all comments, even disciplinary comments, to the group, unless the subject is disciplining one participant, such as here. Why is it done that way? Because it works. All of us are participants and all comments are equally important to all of us. Apteva (talk) 09:09, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

I am struggling to think how Apteva can possibly imagine that parliamentary procedure does not allow comments on participants. The UK Parliament certainly does, as does the Australian one. They occasionally require a degree of circumlocution (so that I might not be allowed to call Apteva a liar but could quote Winston Churchill and say that I suspect him/her of a "terminological inexactitude") and do require remarks to be addressed to the Speaker or chair, but this didn't bar Margaret Thatcher from describing her opponents as "Frit! Frit!", nor Geoffrey Howe from bringing her down with his resignation speech, nor Julia Gillard from her blistering yet thoroughly parliamentary criticism of Tony Abbott. I'm also not sure that Misplaced Pages would benefit from requiring me to use phrases such as "I am struggling to think how Apteva can possibly imagine that" when I could just write "Why do you think that". NebY (talk) 10:39, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Request for a DUCK block of User:Jayakrishnan.ks101

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Can we get a quick DUCK block of

• Jayakrishnan.ks101 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

as a sock of blocked

• Gogdygody (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

*Jayakrishnan.ks100 (talk · contribs) Thanks. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 11:46, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

• a) I'm not blocked. b) This proves that disruptive users can take even senior editors for a ride through impersonation. JK (talk) 14:54, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

•  Done. And the masterblock for Gogdygody has been extended to indefinite. Jayakrishnan.ks100 seems to be the victim of an impersonation attempt, see this revert. De728631 (talk) 13:33, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

• • Requesting your attention to the accounts,
  • TheRedPenfDoom (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
  • TheRedPenOfDooms (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

 Done De728631 already took care of them. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 15:07, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

• • • Thank you for pointing that out. Blocked indef as possible sockpuppets of Gogdygody, and for misleading usernames. De728631 (talk) 15:08, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
      • sorry i was mislead by spoof name. I will be more careful in the future. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:20, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Coordinated vandals at Eugene V Debs

Eugene V. Debs is being repeatly vandalized by three editors (history here ). The edits of User:Elijah morton, User:PDavis Million and User:24.117.180.113 are similar and happen close together. I can't keep up with them. Please help. Howicus (talk) 15:45, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Actually, I think they've stopped now. I warned Elijah morton again, User:Hmrox warned User:24.117.180.113, and User:PDavis Million didn't edit again. Howicus (talk) 16:00, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Elijah hasn't edited since their last warning while PDavis has only edited once without warning. The IP hasn't received a note either. In case the behaviour continues, an administrator can take action. — Nearly Headless Nick {c} 17:07, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Legal Threat at Talk:Susan_L._Burke

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

IP made a legal threat here. Will notify IP and place notice on article talk page. JanetteDoe (talk) 16:14, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

• Blocked and explained on their talk page. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 19:12, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Use of RevisionDelete on The Name of the Doctor

Plot details for an upcoming episode of Doctor Who, The Name of the Doctor have been leaked, and an anonymous user posted a plot synopsis on the episode's article. This edit was subsequently reverted, and the page semi-protected by User:Black Kite. All well and good, considering the information is unverifiable. But does this really warrant the use of RevisionDelete, again by Black Kite? Keep in mind that this is not a copyright issue, and not a WP:BLP either. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Phillipedison1891 (talk • contribs) 17:44, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Does this really need to be discussed? Four days and the article will correctly summarize the plot. Let's just leave this with a "not to be considered a RevDel precedent" note and focus our energies elsewhere. --regentspark (comment) 18:59, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

(I've undone regentspark's close of this thread) I'd say it needs to be discussed, yeah. Tools like revdelete are used to remove serious policy violations covered by specific criteria, not because "ooh spoilers" - even if they're really popular or dramatic spoilers Or ones that if we prevent them, we'll get bonus extra clips c'mon Moffat pleeeeease. The revdelete tool removes non-admins' ability to track page history, and that's a really valuable element of the wiki software. That's why we use revdelete so sparingly and carefully in the first place, and I'm disappointed to see that going wrong and it being used casually here. I see that BK cited IAR in his deletion summary, but he also seemed to know that his action would be disputed, since he said to "trout him if we wish". IAR, as I wish more people would understand, is not for cases where one knows the action will be contentious and disagreed with - it's for cases where what "the right thing to do" is is so clear that you know that even if it's not in the rules, it's what everyone would agree is the common-sense choice. In this case, that's not true and sets a very strange precedent (even if we wag our fingers and say this isn't a precedent) wherein WP:SPOILER is suddenly routed around and we not only blank spoilers, but we send them down the memory hole. I would support the reversion of this revdelete, whether by Black Kite or by another admin. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 20:47, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Oh, for goodness sake. I used revdelete not because what was posted was a spoiler (actually, it appears to be complete bollocks), but because there was such an internet frenzy off-wiki (involving multiple quite reliable sites posting "look at Misplaced Pages - it tells you everything!" and pointing to that revision) that all that would have happened was that the "spoiler" would have been re-posted over and over again, probably in even worse English than the first one. We can do without all that, which is why I (a) revdeleted the "spoiler", and (b) semi'd the article. As I said in the revdel summary, if you think I was wrong, undo it and smack me over the head with an enormous fish. But I think I was correct. (Incidentally, the same thing appears to have happened on Template:Doctor Who as well - also revdeleted by a different admin.) Black Kite (talk) 20:53, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

I reverted the revdel largely for the reasons Fluffernutter outlined above. Simply put, we don't revdel spoilers, unless they are sufficiently detailed to rise to the level of a copyright violation (see Misplaced Pages:Plot-only description of fictional works#Avoiding_violating_copyright), which this one was not. There is also a very good reason for retaining it in this case: editors may wish to later base a plot summary on this prior content, and it also aids in investigating the activity of the editor that added it. We never remove content solely to assuage panic by people off-wiki who don't understand how Misplaced Pages works. I would, frankly, question that this material was removed at all, since it could be verified using the leaked video, but that's another matter. I will also restore the revision in the template. Dcoetzee 20:57, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

No, as I said, we don't use revdel for that reason, but (as I also said about 5cm above) I wasn't revdel-ing it because of that, I was trying to stop disruption of the article, but whatever. Fine. Is it a slow news day today or something? Black Kite (talk) 21:05, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Although I appreciate that your action was made in good faith, valid uses of revdel don't include "there are confused (I'm being charitable here) people elsewhere on the internet". Sorry. — Scott • talk 16:46, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

The template edits were revdeleted because they were LTA trolling, not because they also happened to contain spoilers. That falls under RD3; good-faith spoiler-posting doesn't. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 20:59, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

My mistake, I'll leave those ones alone. I don't support revdel'ing vandalism either, since it complicates investigation of vandal accounts, but those revdels are at least in line with policy. Dcoetzee 21:02, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Problematic IP editor persistently adding incorrect information to articles

Over the last few weeks, IP user 2.219.140.198 (talk) has been persistently putting incorrect information into articles. In most cases, this has involved the annual passenger usage figures included in the infoboxes in British railway station articles. Station usage data is published by the ORR and is available on-line:

As an example, the Excel data available at that link gives the official 2011/12 usage figure for Glasgow Queen Street railway station as 20,929,594 (i.e. 20.930 million), yet this IP user has added a range of different incorrect figures to this article alone, as listed below:

• 21.310 million (edit of 15:38, 7 April 2013)
• 20.100 million (edit of 23:07, 7 April 2013)
• 20.100 million (edit of 23:18, 10 April 2013)
• 23.234 million (edit of 22:27, 6 May 2013)
• 23.340 million (edit of 22:52, 13 May 2013)

I have corrected the figure in the above article and have twice warned the user against adding wrong information.–Signalhead  18:11, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Whitechristian2013 and the Turk Nazi Party

Whitechristian2013 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Neo-Nazism (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

List of white nationalist organizations (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

This user is repeatedly adding a paragraph on something called the Turk Nazi Party to Neo-Nazism and List of white nationalist organizations‎. It's unsourced to anything other than the organisation's own website and some Misplaced Pages articles which don't mention it. The List of white nationalist organizations‎ is meant to be well-known, i.e. blue-linked, groups only. I've reverted them once on Neo-Nazism, twice on List of white nationalist organizations‎ (where the scope of the list specifically excludes the group since it's redlinked), left them notes on their talk page, started sections on the talk pages of both articles to discuss the material, and the user won't engage. I don't know what to do. Also they're marking all their edits as minor for some reason and don't use edit summaries. I'm not providing diffs because these are this user's only contributions, so you can see them all in the userlinks above. — alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 22:27, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

I've corrected their latest additions under WP:LIST. I'm not sure what would be considered appropriate after this point. If they revert again we can give them a 3RR warning, perhaps that would get their attention.Coffeepusher (talk) 22:47, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, maybe that will work. And maybe the orange bar of doom would have stopped all this in its tracks!— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 22:49, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

What's your PROBLEM? Don't you have anything better to do with your life? I had a bit of spare time to add a Neo-Nazi White Nationalist group to Misplaced Pages & you keep deleting it? Well done! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Whitechristian2013 (talk • contribs) 22:53, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

I'd just add that making substantial additions to articles like this while marking them as minor edits is not generally a sign of good faith behavior: see -- The Anome (talk) 23:01, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Yes, thanks for trying, and you can still add it. It's just necessary to show that it's worthy of inclusion, what we call "notable" (see WP:NOTABLE). To do this you have to find some discussion of it in books or newspapers. I can't find any but maybe it's a language issue. If you can find some I'll be happy to show you what kind of support is necessary to be able to include the material and how to use it, but without sources like that it's really not possible to add that kind of information. — alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 23:07, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict)X2 Whitechristian2013 only has 30 edits so far so lets see if we can make this work. ok, so why don't we start this again without being upset. The reason we keep reverting your addition is because you are adding it to a list of[REDACTED] articles, but there isn't a[REDACTED] article for the party. If you read the links on the welcome template that you were given you will see what is required for an article to be accepted into wikipedia. you are welcome to write that article, but please understand that we need to use third party sources, not the parties home page. I'm happy to help you work on a full article but we need to start talking first. Cheers!Coffeepusher (talk) 23:09, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Argh, now they're messing with my user pages.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 23:12, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

I think they took the deletion personally and now they are trying to figure out how to work[REDACTED] in a rage.Coffeepusher (talk) 23:40, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, this is a lovely series of diffs: , , .— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 23:45, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

I'm trying to defuse the situation a little. They have already made their third revert, but as a new user I haven't given them a 3RR template just yet because I think that may be counterproductive. I'm explaining things on their talk page, and if I can get them to start talking I think we may be able to do this without any extreme measures.Coffeepusher (talk) 23:51, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

• Comment: The username alone is... disconcerting. AGF and all, but this smells a bit fishy to me. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 23:57, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

ok, I've got them talking a bit, so I think we can wait before we employ anything more drastic. I'm going to see if they would like to create an article and use that as an opportunity to get them to understand wikipedia's requirements, we may even have a new article out of the process.Coffeepusher (talk) 00:00, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Good work. I'll probably stay out of it from now so as not to exacerbate the situation.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 00:04, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Le sigh... Evanh2008  11:26, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

I just reverted the following three diffs before I noticed this thread. Those diffs are: , , and . These edits were made after other editors tried to talk to this user on his talk page. It appears this editor is WP:NOTLISTENING. Singularity42 (talk) 11:38, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Just reverted the addition he made to Neo-Nazism again. He's well past 3RR. — Richard BB 12:44, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Also, along with Lothar von Richthofen, I'm very concerned about this editor's username. — Richard BB 12:45, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

• I've now blocked Whitechristian2013 for 48 hours due to continuous edit warring. De728631 (talk) 13:07, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Well I think everyone gave this guy enough of a break, he had two choices and chose poorly. I agree that the username is concerning especially with this user's focus on Neo-Nazi groups, but I am unclear on how it is an actual violation. Perhaps when his block expires, he will be more inclined to talk. Cheers! Coffeepusher (talk) 13:33, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

And now he's deleted the block notice. I don't believe there are any policies forbidding this, but it seems a bit belligerent. Still, we'll see how he acts after his block ends. — Richard BB 13:38, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

He has also called me "anti-semetic" (sic) for warning him about edit-warring! In any case, he has now been indefinitely blocked by Daniel Case for a username violation. RolandR (talk) 14:09, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

As such, I have marked this one as resolved. Daniel Case (talk) 14:13, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Note that they're still removing active block notices, which is not permitted. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 14:23, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Suggest revoking his talk page privileges after this comment. — Richard BB 15:31, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Given that he's still at it, that'd be a good idea. He doesn't need to be editing anywhere here anymore. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 16:20, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Any chance we can up the indef for apostrophe abuse?Coffeepusher (talk) 16:39, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

This user continues to post personal attacks and abuse on his talk page. Since he does not appear to be using this to request unblocking, can his talk page access be removed? RolandR (talk) 17:09, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of special entities recognized by international treaty or agreement (2nd nomination)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

without contacting a specific admin, this AfD has run over 7 days and requires closure. thanks LibStar (talk) 00:28, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks; I'll close it now. Ironholds (talk) 00:43, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Aaand done. Ironholds (talk) 00:51, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

User keeps deleting sourced information

NovaSkola keeps deleting sourced information because he doesnt want to believe what it says. The article in question, Ibad Huseynov, is an Azerbaijani soldier who during the Karabakh war beheaded an Armenian soldier. Azerbaijani's, like NovaSkola, claim the individual killed was Armenian hero Monte Melkonian but evidence, that i posted from an Azerbaijani source (so its not biased towards Armenians), shows it wasnt. He keeps deleting my post and claiming the individual killed was Monte by citing from a movie about Huseynov. So i edited the page and left both sections, even though they contradict each other but he deleted my post once again calling it vandalism. I posted pictures which show the Huseynov with the head, which came from an Azerbaijani site, and a picture of Monte's funeral. He deleted it again. I believe action needs to take place as the individual keeps deleting sourced information. Also this user has done this on numerous other occasions. Regarding the article about Guba Mass Grave, i posted a sourced paragraph giving details regarding the grave and he kept deleting it claiming it was biased. If you look at the edit history for that page as well as this, he reverted my edits and classified them as vandalism just because he doesnt like what he reads.Ninetoyadome (talk) 01:17, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

This article has many problems, and the source that is being removed, while possibly reliable is being used to state facts in wikipedias voice that should be attributed to a person. That's a no no.   little green rosetta(talk)
central scrutinizer  01:39, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

I agree the article has many problems as this individual hasnt done anything except fight in the war so i dont know if that sould constitute a page. Many individuals will find this page, when searching for Huseynov, and be lied too when they see an obvious lie claiming he killed Monte Melkonian. The article I posted is citing an interview with an Azerbaijani General who fought during the war so he would know who killed who. NovaSkola keeps deleting it and adding an excerpt from a documentary about Huseynov, which is basically a propaganda film.Ninetoyadome (talk) 03:58, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Hello, I have removed information due it contained a basic photo from some site, which includes photo of beheading and it can be seen as many people as extremist. As you see in here (last reference, clearly includes link to beheading photo, which is not confirmed by any sources as reliable or not)

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Ibad_Huseynov&diff=554953491&oldid=554944195 Ninyatoyadome without any warnings removed my edits and by knowing the extremist content of that photo, reversed my edit and added biased information from some blog. Therefore he should be warned/punished due he ignored Misplaced Pages's guidelines about extremist material.--NovaSkola (talk) 12:46, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Before the image i had posted a nonbiased interview which you deleted for no reason. You kept deleting it and then claiming both should remain. I left both and you still deleted my post. Can you explain that? I posted an interview with an Azerbaijani general, if it was an Armenian general i would say it was biased but it was an Azerbaijani general. You posted from a propaganda movie about him. Ninetoyadome (talk) 16:39, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Clarification, please

A user that several of us tried to reason with has an issue with me. He calls me a "troll", and violates rules, but when his feelings got hurt, he reported me for behavior he himself engaged in. I will be the first to say that while I have contributed to this site (see Danny Thomas for one), I had no idea about "outting" and "sock/meat puppets". Live and learn.

Anyway, this has to do with the Ted Healy page, which Los Angeles historian Larry Harnisch has used as an example on his blog of how Misplaced Pages editors post false or misleading information with little or one citation. I was not the one that started the discussion, but apparently, I was the one he took issue with. At the admins suggestion (see below), I humbly request a review and education on why the poster can ask someone who they are in real life, but I cannot, why a poster can call me names, yet I can not respond. As you can see, he blanked out some of my comments in response to his. He even stated that he doesn't even know if the author of the book he is citing is alive after I posted that in fact, the writer was a self published writer in the process of writing another. Apparently, in trying to drill knowledge into his head, I am deemed "agressive". I was not the first person to ask for his identity (he claims a vast experience in news editing, yet can't find an article with a link) and yet I'm the one being taken to task.

In advance, I thank you for any feedback you can give me, and forgive me if I don't properly know how to identify the admin that helped me get here. Zabadu (talk) 04:43, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

== Attempted outing ==Hello. There is currently a discussion at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you.

Dennis, I know you have a lot on your plate, but please tell me what to do: If you take a glance at my talk page, you'll notice that a user named Zabadu barged into a discussion I was having with another editor about the validity of an RS that was cited (by someone else) in the Ted Healy article. He/she got all bent out of shape because I had the temerity to question comments made by a blogger who was using the Healy article to criticize WP in general. For the record, that blogger and I have since had a nice chat off-wiki ([http://ladailymirror.com/2013/05/11/wikipedia-revert-war-wallace-beery-vs-ted-healy-round-8/

• Holy cow, got up because I couldn't sleep and found this copy/paste job waiting for me at ANI. I'm about to go back to bed, I'm sure someone else can fix my archive into a proper quote box of some kind, and help the gentleman. My opinion is probably obvious anyway. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 04:58, 15 May 2013 (UTC)
• Ok, I fixed the box and left a note at User talk:DoctorJoeE. I think this user tried but didn't quite get how to do that, based on the header on this quote box. Again, off to bed.... Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 05:06, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, Dennis, for notifying me. Take a look at my talk page; I think it's obvious who was trying to maintain the discussion on the subject (the Ted Healy article), and who was trying to shift the discussion to a personal attack on me. To reiterate, I worked out the Healy issue off-wiki with Mr. Harnisch, who turned out to be a very nice guy. The public part of that discussion is on his blog, which is here . The problem is solved. I'm going to continue my discussion with him, which should result in not only a better Healy article, but also in (I hope) some restoration of his faith in WP, which deteriorated when he became disillusioned as an editor some time ago, as he explained. Most of his objections to the article's content had already been rectified before the complainant's first post on my talk page. The complainant says he/she "tried to point me to articles" -- but as the dialog on my talk page shows, those sources were already cited in the Healy article (by me and others), and when I attempted to point that out, the discussion just kept coming back to me, personally. My error in this whole interaction was in breaking my own rule of ignoring personal attacks. I've learned from that, and I won't fall into that trap again. As you can see, I tried to walk away from the fray more than once, and it was only when the badgering about my personal identity continued that I felt compelled to seek administrative assistance. I should have tried harder to walk away; I get flamed all the time in my real job, and I've learned to shrug it off, and I need to learn to do that here as well. The complainant, of course, refuses to concede any errors at all. The exchange on my talk page speaks for itself -- but I'll be happy to answer any specific questions. DoctorJoeE /_{talk to me!} 05:56, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

We all push the limits of civility from time to time, and throwing around the "troll" word is usually a bad idea. As for "outing", I don't see what you did as outing. I do see what he did as outing, not because of the single comment (which would be borderline by itself) but because of the series in inquiry and flat out badgering you about revealing your "true identity" followed by an claim that required revdel'ing. That is why I gave him the warning, under the good faith assumption that he didn't realize he pushed it beyond good judgment and into the area of bordering on harassing. Since I had taken action on his actions, I figured he needed to come here to allow others to review his claims, although I think fall short of a violation and it is more likely just "tit for tat". Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 12:58, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Absolutely, "troll" was a poor word choice, but I couldn't think of a better descriptor, on the spur of the moment, for the constant needling. Many of you know me, I've been here awhile, you know I don't pick fights, and I've had a hand in resolving a few; I'm a writer, I just enjoy writing. And as Daniel Webster used to say about his paucity of Senate speeches, "I only protest when I'm kicked." Well, I was kicked. DoctorJoeE /_{talk to me!} 14:19, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Death of Tia Sharp

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Per Talk:Death of Tia Sharp, please could an admin rename the article to Murder of Tia Sharp, or lift the move protection. The trial is over and Stuart Hazell was convicted.--♦IanMacM♦ 05:25, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Wrong venue. That is what WP:RM is for. Apteva (talk) 06:20, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Of course, would-be Admins have to show knowledgability of the various WP Fora... but also are expected to be helpful Cheers! Basket _Feudalist 11:12, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

...helpful AND friendly (✉→BWilkins←✎) 11:31, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

I think the proper term would be "wanna-be". Thomas.W (talk) 11:24, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Playerhistory.com and soccerdatabase.eu

Following this AN/I thread, there is a bot removing all links to both playerhistory.com and soccerdatabase.eu. From the discussion, I can understand the reasoning for deleting soccerdatabase.eu, but the arguments for removing playerhistory.com was "because they are dead anyways", which is not the way to prevent WP:LINKROT. I've used playerhistory.com as citation in a lot of my articles, as it is the only statistics-site that covers Norwegian football pre 2000, but now all of those citation have been removed from the articles (without removing the supported text/stats). Is it disruptive if I revert the bot (after the task is done), or is playerhistory.com a site that we shouldn't link to at all? Mentoz86 (talk) 09:14, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Useful links - Misplaced Pages:Bot requests#Playerhistory.com and Soccerdatabase.eu and MediaWiki talk:Spam-blacklist#soccerdatabase.eu and Misplaced Pages:Templates for discussion/Log/2012 June 22#Template:Playerhistory GiantSnowman 09:22, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

I've read those, as they were linked in the AN/I thread. No need to comment on the bot request after the bot has started to perform its task? Mentoz86 (talk) 09:26, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

They provide some more context to the situation. GiantSnowman 09:28, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

My take on this matter, as the editor who submitted the bot request to remove the links. This website has been dead for at least 12 months, more like 18-24 if I remember correctly. It has been "re-launching soon!" for nearly as long. This is not a classic case of LINKROT as this does not cover newspaper articles or the like, it is a sports database which is not being updated, and therefore serves no purpose at all for active players. As for historical players, how do we know the statistics are accurate? i.e. can it be considered a reliable source? Furthermore, can the links actually be salvaged i.e. at the Wayback Machine? I cannot check as I am at work. GiantSnowman 09:42, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

No it doesn't serve any purpose for active players, but it rarely used for active players. User:Frietjes did a fantastic job replacing the citations from playerhistory.com with other sites when Template:Playerhistory disappeared, but replaced the template with <ref>{{cite web |url=http://www.playerhistory.com/player/### |title="Name" profile |publisher=playerhistory.com}}{{dead link}}</ref> when he couldn't find another citation to replace it with, and that was mostly for players that were active before the internet-era. If we have the playerhistory-links with a deadlink template, it atleast shows that the information was verified in the past. Yes it is linkrot, but to quote WP:LINKROT: Do not delete cited information solely because the URL to the source does not work any longer. WP:Verifiability does not require that all information be supported by a working link, nor does it require the source to be published online. At first, I thought the reason all the links were removed was because someone had opened a thread at WP:RSN to discover that playerhistory.com was not a reliable source. But I was surprised that they were removed simply because they were dead. I have used soccerdatabase.eu as a "wayback machine", as it looks exatcly like playerhistory.com in late 2011, but make it look like I found the info on playerhistory.com when citing in articles. Mentoz86 (talk) 10:01, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Who has deleted information? I certainly have not, I have been adding {{cn}} wherever I have come across them, as ideally the bot should have done. soccerdatabase.eu should not be used as an archive as it is merely a mirror which looks to be violating copyight and will hopefully be blacklisted. Have you used the actual Wayback Machine? GiantSnowman 10:18, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Oh dear. I wish I'd kept up with the original ANI thread, didn't realise the bot was going to delete all links to playerhistory as well, including citations. WP:LINKVIO says we should be removing links to soccerdatabase.eu, assuming we accept that the site violates playerhistory.com's copyright. And there's no point keeping dead external links. But Mentoz86 is correct that where playerhistory is being used as a cited source, those citations shouldn't be removed just because the site is dead. Until and unless the site is found not to be RS, they should be left in place and tagged with {{dead link}}. WP:LINKROT#Keeping dead links is clear on this. Can anything automatic be done to fix? cheers, Struway2 (talk) 10:47, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Surely the burden should be on us to prove it is reliable, not to show it is not. I personally don't see any use in keeping two-year old dead links that (seemingly) cannot be repaired; it is much more useful to tag them with {{cn}} and replace them that way. GiantSnowman 11:23, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Removing cited sources simply because they're deadlinks is not a good idea. Not only can the site come back online, at which point all those citations would need to be re-added, but also a citation to a currently-offline source is certainly better than no reference to any source at all. Even if the site is currently down (or even permanently so), there are archival sites such as archive.org that may have old versions of the pages available. Jafeluv (talk) 12:04, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

I have asked (three times now!) for somebody to check whether or not the Wayback Machine has archived links, as I am unable to do so. GiantSnowman 12:12, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

It has some pages from the site. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 12:28, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Some but not all? Can a bot restore all PH links from the WM, or is that too complicated? GiantSnowman 12:32, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Some but nowhere near all. Any retrieval of archive links would require having the original PH URLs to start with, so presumably the first step to any sort of fix, manual or automatic, would be to restore any citations to PH that the original bot removed. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 12:41, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

What about rollbacking the bot's edits between 22:00 UTC yesterday and 04:00 (UTC) today, and then make the bot re-do the removal of soccerdatabase.eu links? We are talking about a couple of thousand articles, so it might be hard to do manually. Mentoz86 (talk) 12:54, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

AfC User's Rash Approvals

I have been active in #wikipedia-en-help for a little while now. At least 90% of the "editing help" questions are about the AFC process, and 90% of that is a familiar routine; the wait time, the COI issues (the vast majority of it is corporates or PR types, alas), WP:ADVERT, what's a good reference, why those aren't good references, why those references "do not adequately evidence the subject's notability".

So far, so good. A couple of days ago someone came in asking about what is now Eric_Sanicola; in the course of discussion, they (entirely predictably) proved to be Mr Sanicola, who had written the entire thing himself. (Not grounds for rejection itself, but not a good start). We gave him the usual spiel - references not reliable or mention him only in passing, notability is not infectious, etc. - but at the end of the discussion, User:Coolboygcp pops in for some other purpose and says "sure, I'll approve it"... and did.

This seems to me to be quite contrary to the reviewing instructions - and frankly, it seems a little futile to hang around in the help channel explaining the need for good references if someone else will come in and approve articles with junk references.

I attempted to discuss this with User:Coolboygcp on the same IRC channel the following day, to get completely stonewalled; a flat denial that there was anything wrong with the article. On checking further, their contribs consist of a series of AFC approvals many of which seem dubious, and from https://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Coolboygcp#Reverting_your_acceptance_of_Wikipedia_talk:Articles_for_creation.2FBritish_Basketball_Association I am not the only editor to have an issue with them.

I'm seeking advice on what should be done next. Pinkbeast (talk) 10:28, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

There are certainly some highly questionable accepts among User:Coolboygcp's contribs. Apart from this, has the user been asked (on-Wiki) on be more careful and pointed in the direction of the reviewing guidelines? Pol430 talk to me 11:46, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

No. I got a flat denial on IRC that there was any kind of problem. IRC does tend to make people terse, but if you agree that there is an issue, I would be grateful if you (or someone else) would bring it up on-Wiki; I appreciate a sanity check that I'm not overreacting. I observe the Eric Sanicola article has been CSDed. Pinkbeast (talk) 11:48, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

I don't think you're overreacting, but I don't think the Eric Sanicola article is the worst of them (CSD has been declined). I'd rather someone else took them in hand, a third opinion won't hurt and I've already raised one editor's AfC work at AN/I today – I don't want to earn a reputation :P Pol430 talk to me 12:08, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

Wow, just wow.

I had no idea that there were this many editors interested in my contributions.

Additionally, when I read the quote: "I attempted to discuss this with Coolboygcp on the same IRC channel the following day, to get completely stonewalled:", I proceeded to laugh hysterically. I did no "stonewall" Pinkbeast, in any way whatsoever.

When I corresponded with him/her, I provided several reasons as to why I approved the Eric Sanicola article. I truly cannot comprehend why he/she would fabricate such an accusation and story about me. However, Pinkbeast has repeatedly threatened me on the mentioned IRC channel several time. Threats such as, "if you upload that image, I will delete it", and I will report you if you upload that image, as well as "I will report you for even thinking about creating that article". Additionally, he/she has repeatedly misinformed dozens of editors and users who come to the IRC channel in order to seek useful, and proper advice and help, who instead receive misinformation and incorrect instructions among other worrisome advice.

In fact, I would advise that Pinkbeast has exhibited very much more worrisome, and detrimental behavior and conduct. Coolboygcp (talk) 12:29, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

CB: Please feel free to show equivilant examples of Pinkbeast's disruptive behavior/content. Your behavior on the other hand causes problems, both for volunteers and the project as a whole. Your article approvals could cause editors and admins to have to edit the newly minted article and potentially have to go through the process of deleting it, having to sort out a policy morass, or potentially opens the foundation to liability. I'm saying this as nicely as possible, be extra careful with your approvals due to the fact that previous approvals have been questioned. Hasteur (talk) 12:40, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

These accusations are false. If there is any doubt about that, I would suggest contacting other users of that channel to see if their clients keep sufficient scrollback; I believe any of User:gwickwire, User:TheOriginalSoni, User:Huon, or User:Yngvadottir might do so. For the avoidance of doubt, I am completely happy to have any comment I addressed on-channel to User:Coolboygcp, or any comment to anyone similar to those above, made public.

The only discussion I have had with User:Coolboygcp about images is that I declined to upload a non-free image for them, responding that "I can't really see that there is much justification for using a nonfree image there" (direct quote) after quoting the Wikimedia Commons guidance on non-free images verbatim.Pinkbeast (talk) 13:28, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

• I've lightly interacted with Coolboygcp in the past. The direct interaction between us was minimal, and if there was, I dont have a strong memory or a log of it. What I do carry is an impression of him trying to help others, though giving quite a few wrong advices. Based on only that impression I carry from there (which I think were based on some articles he was involved in), I think he might make a good reviewer if nudged properly. I think a mandatory adoption for him before he can continue reviewing articles might be sufficient.

Also, IMO IRC interactions have a lot better chance of actually generating a positive response and actually solving the problem than escalating the issue, which I've often found on-wiki interactions do. TheOriginalSoni (talk) 13:30, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Topic ban?

Looking through his declines, and his assurances that nothing is wrong, when many of his reviews clearly are, anyone willing to support an attempt to get a topic ban? Mdann52 (talk) 13:51, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

I've looked through some of his approvals and am the one that nominated the article that brought this up for CSD, which was declined, and subsequently nominated for AfD by myself, which at my last check had only one other person with a Delete nomination and no Keeps. Technical 13 (talk) 14:17, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

I think that would be best, but I'm not exactly unbiased here. Pinkbeast (talk) 14:21, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

They're still at it. http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Wikipedia_talk:Articles_for_creation/Talent_Neuron&action=history is an approval of an AFC which took a whole five hours to get G11ed! Pinkbeast (talk) 22:28, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

• I'm not sure IRC is the best way to communicate to people about what they might be doing wrong. Suggesting improvements or problems to people on their user talk pages leaves a record, which can be very helpful for anyone coming with subsequent problems. (It also eliminates pointless disputes like the above about what has been said.) DGG ( talk ) 17:48, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

I don't disagree; I just happened to see him pop up there while I was thinking about it anyway. Pinkbeast (talk) 15:18, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

• Support a topic ban from reviewing AfC submissions for a period of three months. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 18:48, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

• There comes a time perhaps where some reviewers should be asked to cease reviewing, at least for a while, such as in the past we have had to ask patrollers to stop patrolling new pages. A polite request rather than a formal topic ban may be sufficient. Like many meta areas, AfC is one that attracts many relatively new and/or inexperienced editors. This has always been a thorn in the side of the AfC process which often requires an admin level of knowledge of inclusion policies. I am absolutely not advocating that only admins should review the pages - there is backlog enough - but some campaign to attract truly experienced editors to the task would probably not go unrewarded. Nothing will change much however until the Foundation comes up with a decent landing page for new users / new, new-page creators. Concurring with DGG, transparecy is required for discussions and IRC is not followed by any means by everyone. Some of us do not use it at all. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 01:52, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose We have one example here, an AFC approval which has now survived AFD. Before topic banning anyone we should be looking at enough diffs to form a pattern, and that pattern would need to indicate a problem. But if an editor's judgement has been born out by the article surviving AFD then it is the rest of the AFC community who have got this one wrong. Note I'm not proposing that Pinkbeast be topic banned from AFC simply for this one case where he declined an AFC submission that went on to pass AFD, I'm hoping that that is an isolated mistake and a learning experience. But there is something deeply wrong with the AFC process when it is regarded as controversial that someone approves an AFC that goes on to survive AFD. ϢereSpielChequers 11:16, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

The article was improved enormously (by someone else) while the AFD process was going on; the version that was approved was essentially uncited and bears little resemblance to the one people were commenting on later in the AFD process. This is not the only example:

• https://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Coolboygcp/Archive_4#Please_stop_moving_articles_into_mainspace
• https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Coolboygcp/Archive_1&oldid=551942369#Reverting_your_acceptance_of_Wikipedia_talk:Articles_for_creation.2FBritish_Basketball_Association (expunged from talkpage history)
• http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Wikipedia_talk:Articles_for_creation/Talent_Neuron&action=history (G11ed within eight hours)
• https://en.wikipedia.org/Australian_Construction_Contracts (notability? And the article is basically a pointless list of stuff.)

These are likely not the only ones, just what a quick trawl finds. I think a more compelling argument for opposing is that the editor appears to have stopped doing it anyway. Pinkbeast (talk) 13:41, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Er, addendum, I have never in my life declined (or accepted) an AFC submission. But if I had declined https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Eric_Sanicola&oldid=551199625 I feel I would have been right to do so. Pinkbeast (talk) 13:44, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

• Copied to ANI here Hasteur (talk) 13:05, 15 May 2013 (UTC)
• Comment I think some of his approvals are questionable, however we need a more thorough investigation before doing anything rash. I have started a thread at the WP:ANI, and have copied our discussion here as well as adding my own comments. TheOneSean | Talk to me 12:49, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

I have also informed everyone involved in this discussion via the ANI template. I hope this is due diligence - I even notified myself. TheOneSean | Talk to me 12:56, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

• Ummm... I think I said all I had to say in that AfC discussion and had thought this issue was closed. Echo me if you need clarification of what I had said, but otherwise I've nothing further to add at this time. (I'm not monitoring this discussion as I would rather stay away from ANI right now but will check back in a "few" days). Technical 13 (talk) 13:16, 15 May 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose - While there does seem to be a problem, its too premature to throwing around topic bans yet. There needs to be further discussion, and a longer pattern of troubling decisions, before that is warranted to be discussed. Sergecross73 msg me 13:21, 15 May 2013 (UTC)
• Comment I would like the editor to voluntarily stop approving AFC's right now, based on their poor history. If they refuse to do it, then I will 100% support a 3 month topic ban (✉→BWilkins←✎) 13:27, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

• Comment I am in general against a topic ban on Coolboygcp because I think its neccesary that we try to approach him directly and help him understand the reviewer functions more before trying anything of this sort. We need more reviewers, and not less, and AGF, I believe, coolboygcp's intentions are good. Maybe we ought to suggest him to be adopted by another experienced reviewer before he actively reviews articles again? TheOriginalSoni (talk) 13:30, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose á la flying off the handle with this one. Basket _Feudalist 13:34, 15 May 2013 (UTC)
• Support: Coolboygcp does, judging by the diffs that have been posted here and his response here, not have the competence/maturity needed for the job, and should be stopped before he causes even more damage to WP. Thomas.W (talk) 13:53, 15 May 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose: Like Bwilkins, I also think they can think of voluntarily stopping AFC review for sometime (2—3 weeks?), in addition they should be more careful in future, but, I don't support the "Topi ban" right now! --Tito Dutta (contact) 14:05, 15 May 2013 (UTC)
• Support with reluctance. I'm not seeing any sign of Coolboygcp realizing their acceptances were problematic, and I see recent creation of two articles of their own that have been deleted as non-notable, so I don't think they "get" the criteria yet. So rather than ask them - again - to hold off on accepting any more articles at AfC for a while, I think we'd better make that official: for a short time. They can always consult with someone else if they think an article is ready, and should be encouraged to do so. Making it official will send the message that they really do need to re-read and internalize the criteria (including, for example, checking for copyvio in the obvious places). Yngvadottir (talk) 16:45, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

POV pushing Greek users trying to cover up a Greek massacre of Turks during Greco-Turkish war 1919-1922

See the page Gemlik-Yalova Peninsula massacres and the talk page, this article is constantly edited by POV pushing users who are distorting facts, source abusing, making false accusations against the source.

The article is about a massacre and dozens of burned villages in a area in modern day Turkey by the Greek army. The users Alexikoua and Athenean are trying to cover up the events, first Alexikoua added the POV tag, I stated that this is not the case, the sources are neutral and based on a third party international commission, then he tried to blame the massacres on the Circassians, to do this he cherry picked a source of one sentence where Circassians are mentioned, the entire report does not mention Circassians at all.

Then he tried to exaggerate the role of Circassians in Greek atrocities, but according to the sources their role was always minimal. He is basically trying to deny, justify and minimize Greek massacres of Turks, he shows very non neeutral behaviour and extreme POV pushing. He finally questioned together with user Athenean the death toll, according to the Turkish document the inter allied report stated 6,000 people were killed, they now attack the author of the document and claim it is not neutral while they do not even can read Turkish, there are other snippet view sources which state 6,000 people disappeared. Still it is clear that hundreds of people were masscred but Alexikoua is now distorting a source and trying to lower the number to 35.

A longer explanation is written down here I hope admins will read this and stop their POV pushing edits.

Author of the Turkish document is Dr. Nebahat Oral Arslan and she is reliable and not biased at all, Turkish speakers can control the page and see it very clearly. Athenean is just trying to discredit the author without evidence, because she wrote "tyranical" about the massacres, but what he does not realize is that the Arslan source is entirely based upon an Inter-Allied Commission report of 1921, and the report of the war journalist Arnold J. Toynbee, which are online . More importantly KILLING innocent people and destroying whole villages IS TYRANNICAL! So what are you trying to say Athenean? Are you saying those massacres were just? The problem is that there were massacres committed by the Greek army against local Turks in 1921, Athenean together with Alexikoua, are two POV Greek Misplaced Pages users who are trying to cover up the crimes by making false accusations. They falsely accuse the authors and sources (even tough I provided full English translation) , they distort and cherry pick sources (I have explained this in the talkpage: Alexikoua lowers the number of casualties to 35, which is based on an inquiry out of 177 people in a camp in Istanbul. I have explained this 4 times to him, but still he persists on distorting the facts by saying that this is the total number of casualties, which the source doesn't say at all  : It is the result of an inquiry out of 177 people. Furthermore we have sources in one individual massacre of a village already exceeds the number 35. But still Alexikoua is persisting on abusing the source and falsely claims that Toynbee puts the total number of casualties on 35 (see ).

Now Athenean is attacking the Turkish author and source just because he doesn't like what is written in it (see While at the same time he eagerly adds information about Greeks being massacred by Turks from an online pdf-document (see which has no footnotes unlike the Turkish source, and which looks much less professional than the Turkish source (see The Turkish document is actually a published study journal from the Ankara University ("TAED Cilt 10, Sayı 22 (2003): TÜRKİYAT ARAŞTIRMALARI ENSTİTÜSÜ DERGİSİ"). Why is Athenean not so skeptical about the French pdf-document? Because he likes the content? (Turks killing Greeks)

Since from the beginning Alexikoua has used all means to disrupt the page (the page has a very long history, can't put all the diffs) They are doing source abuse, they are clearly pursuing a non neutral agenda to cover up/minimize crimes by the Greek army (and also to blame the Circassians). The source of Arslan states that M. Gehri stated that there were in total 6,000-6,500 people killed, there are other sources who mention that 6,000 people disappeared, still it is clear from all sources that hundreds of people were massacred and dozens of villages burned. Why else would the Inter-Allied Commission conclude that : "A distinct and regular method appears to have been followed in the destruction of villages, group by group, for the last two months... there is a systematic plan of destruction of Turkish villages and extinction of the Muslim population. This plan is being carried out by Greek and Armenian bands, which appear to operate under Greek instructions and sometimes even with the assistance of detachments of regular troops."

So I ask the admins to please stop these POV users to non neutrally edit the page, they do not say the truth, they are distorting the facts, falsely accusing people, thanks in advance.DragonTiger23 (talk) 16:22, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Can I first point out that it is not whether the events in question were BARBAROUS or TYRANNICAL or whatever that's important in compiling Misplaced Pages, but whether they are verifiable and notable? It looks like you do have sources to show that that's the case; so the thing to do is to link to those sources calmly, and keep the discussion tightly focussed on the reliability and relevance of those sources, rather than on who comes from what country, and what terrible things everyone's ancestors did. Hopefully an admin will be along shortly to see whether there's anything specific they can do to help you. AlexTiefling (talk) 16:44, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Alexikoua still insists on falsifying the sources. see ] (I gave an answer to his source abuse/falsify)

I think he should be banned from editing on that page, since his disruptive vandalism has become clear.DragonTiger23 (talk) 17:29, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

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