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Content problem
Hi! I feel darkness shines is hoping for another fac for this article. I think one content-related problem still persists here. Although the topic is rape, other crimes tend to be heavily discussed. I am not saying do not mention killing ! But, the topic should focus less on non-rape atrocities.--Dwaipayan (talk) 23:39, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
- @Dwaipayan: I have been trimming those down over the last few days and adding stuff which is more directly related to the article, all advice and help gratefully taken. Darkness Shines (talk) 09:16, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
- "The Bengali people were the demographic majority in Pakistan after the Partition of India, making up an estimated 75 million in the East compared with 55 million in the predominately Urdu-speaking West" Need to mention the year of that data.
- "The people of the East were looked upon as second-class citizens by the West, and Amir Abdullah Khan Niazi referred to the region as..." Provide a small descriptor for Niazi. Who was he? Also, providing the year of that quote might be good.
- "The refusal by successive governments to recognize Bengali as the second national language led to the formation of the Bengali language movement and to further support for the newly formed Awami League" Probably grammatically weak sentence, perhaps breaking is needed? Also, a descriptor of Awami League (such as , "established as the Bengali alternative to the domination of the Muslim League in Pakistan..).
- "Nationalists viewed those who had died as martyrs for their cause,..." Nationalists in the East viewed...
- "...and that Ayub Khan was willing to lose the East if it meant" Descriptor for Ayub Khan.
- "...the quick rehabilitation of the perpetrators back in Pakistan was to have salient implications for the country's future". May not be needed in the article; however, this is kind of mysterious. What implications?
- Overall, I think the background is ok-ish. Two sentences in the beginning, mentioning West and East Pakistan (due to partition of India) and their physical distance may help readers.
- "... lead by Tikka Khan" A small descriptor for Tikka Khan
- "who was given the name the "butcher of Bengal" for his actions" By whom?
- "..reportedly said when reminded that he was in charge of a majority province "I will reduce this majority to a minority". When did he say so? Mention year, and, if needed, month.
- "...some as young as eighteen who had been kidnapped..." Eighteen is not really young; perhaps can remove this phrase.
- "... some as young as eighteen who had been kidnapped from private homes and Dacca University who had been held in military brothels" grammar error.
- "Entire villages were razed to the ground and the inhabitants killed. Over a two-day period intellectuals and professionals were taken from their homes and murdered. Their names were found in the diary of Major-General Rao Farman Ali. This has since been declared Martyred Intellectuals Day by the Bangladeshi government" Entirely can go; nothing directly with rape.
- "Liz Trotta reported in 1972 from a village ..." descriptor for Trotta.
- "...but media reports on the atrocities did reach the public, and gave rise to widespread support for the liberation movement" Public where? worldwide? Also, widespread support means international?
- "According to Peter Tomsen, the Inter-Services Intelligence in conjunction with Jamaat-e-Islami formed militias..." All three names, Tomsen, ISI, and Jamaat need descriptor.
- "The Mukti Bahini targeted the Biharis..." Mukti Bahini and Bihari needs descriptors/explanation.
- " Adam Jones has suggested that in terms of the relative rate of killings in a short time span the events in Bangladesh may have been among the top most intense genocidal events of all time, together with the Rwandan genocide of 1994 and the killings of Soviet POWs by Nazi Germany in 1941–42, provided that the true number of victims was close to the upper bound of current estimates, around 3 million" This whole section is probably ok to remove. This is appropriate for the conflict article, but this one should focus on rape specifically.
- "...were the first instances of war rape to attract international media attention, and Sally J. Scholz has written that this was the first genocide to capture the interest of the mass media." First? First since when? There was Holocaust before, and some more.
- "In an interview in 1972 Indira Gandhi justified the use of military intervention, saying, "Shall we sit and watch their women get raped?" Descriptor for Indira Gandhi. This comes somewhat suddenly. Perhaps needs to be moved someplace else.--Dwaipayan (talk) 22:43, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
- @Dwaipayan: Thank you for your review, I think I have gotten everything you have mentioned, Re your last two points, Scholz I believe is referring to the fact that this was the first genocide and instance of war rapes covered by the media as it happened, perhaps a copyedit will cover that? Re Gandhi, I am not really to sure where else in the article that should? Darkness Shines (talk) 06:37, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
- Mention, perhaps at the start of Aftermath, the result of the war as a whole: the East Pakistan seceded as Bangladesh, and West Pakistan became Pakistan.--Dwaipayan (talk) 02:20, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
- I did not read the lead earlier. Not sure, but the lead for whatever reason does not read good. I will try to have a look later.--Dwaipayan (talk) 02:28, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
On reference style
Since the article uses some books repeatedly, and many are book sources, you can consider using sfn style for references. It is not a requirement, and may take a good few hours to do the conversion. The end result, is, usually aesthetically pleasing. But no need as such.--Dwaipayan (talk) 02:34, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
- Sfn style? Darkness Shines (talk) 04:39, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
- For example of use of sfn style, please see Sholay. Again, this is not a requirement.--Dwaipayan (talk) 20:47, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
Other discussion
- Dear User:Darkness Shines, I didn't notice that the source was a forum. But I think info about the research of Sarmila bose is necessary for NPOV while also stating her study has been criticized by various historians and academics. You can use the ISBN/name of that controversial Book Dead Reckoning: Memories of the 1971 Bangladesh War as reference if you want. Here you can find some other References.
- Dear User:Darkness Shines, I didn't notice that the source was a forum. But I think info about the research of Sarmila bose is necessary for NPOV while also stating her study has been criticized by various historians and academics. You can use the ISBN/name of that controversial Book Dead Reckoning: Memories of the 1971 Bangladesh War as reference if you want. Here you can find some other References.
- Rahat | ✉ 16:32, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
- Her work and methodology has been severely criticised, I see no place for Dead Reckoning here at all. Darkness Shines (talk) 16:42, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
- In fact, I just searched her book and she does not seem to discuss the mass rapes at all. Darkness Shines (talk) 16:47, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
- Would you please tell me what else is necessary to take this article to featured article grade? - Rahat | ✉ 16:56, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
- Well I think it is pretty close to being good enough for FA now, Dwaipayan has done a fair bit of work on improvements, I hope to nominate it soon. Darkness Shines (talk) 17:25, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
References
- Woodrow Wilson Center Woodrow Wilson Center Book Launch event
- Anatomy of Violence: Analysis of Civil War in East Pakistan in 1971 by Sarmila Bose in the Economic and Political Weekly, October 8, 2005
- Losing the Victims: Problems of Using Women as Weapons in Recounting the Bangladesh War by Sarmila Bose in the Economic and Political Weekly, September 22, 2007
Request for comment
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"Davis also compared the extant of the atrocities to the Nazi Lebensborn program"
I felt that Tikka Khan's programme (ordering his soldiers to violate Bengali women indiscriminately) was an obscenity, comparable to Heinrich Himmler's Lebensborn Ministry in Nazi Germany. It gave me some satisfaction to know that I was contributing to the destruction of the policies of West Pakistan.
A dispute has arisen over the inclusion of this quote from Dr. Geoffrey Davis in the artilce, so community input is required. Darkness Shines (talk) 19:51, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
- Once more: Davis isn't a reliable source about anything except the area he is an expert witness for, i.e. the medical conditions in the post-war abortion programs. He was not an historian or a politologist or any other kind of expert. Nor was he himself notable as a figure in these events. What this quote does is presenting Mr Davis' views on two issues: his opinions about an overall historical assessment of the events (comparing them to some Nazi stuff), and the personal feelings he had during the situation (feeling "satisfaction" working there, etc.) Both issues are irrelevant for the article: about the first issue, he is not a reliable source; the second is of no encyclopedic interest at all.
- What makes this additionally annoying is the fact that Davis inadvertently introduces an historical error of fact in his argument: he is evidently presupposing that the "Lebensborn" was a place of Nazi atrocities, according to the wide-spread myth that it was a program of forced breeding. As our article explains in some length, this is a myth; the "Lebensborn" was nothing of the sort. Having his quotation here has the effect of quite unnecessarily perpetuating this historical falsehood towards our readers. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:28, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
RS tag?
How is this supplement from a national newspaper not RS? Darkness Shines (talk) 20:20, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
- It is an op-ed opinion piece quoting Davis second-hand. If at all, we ought to be citing the original interview itself. However, Davis himself isn't a reliable source either, at least not for the things he is being quoted about. He may be a reliable (though "primary") source about the medical conditions in the abortion programs he worked in, but he is not a reliable source about what other historical events the Bangladesh rapes are comparable with (be it the "Lebensborn" or whatever else). Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:30, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
- You're saying Davis is not reliable for his own words? Darkness Shines (talk) 20:38, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
- He is a reliable source for his own opinions, but his opinions are not notable and as such irrelevant for our article. What he isn't a reliable source for is the things he is expressing these opinions about, i.e. what the Bangladesh rapes were comparable with. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:43, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
- If his views are so not notable then explain why Bina D'Costa tracked him down to interview him? And mentions his views in her work? Darkness Shines (talk) 20:53, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
- Oh, for Fuck's sake. Not everybody who gets interviewed by a PhD student as an historical witness about a war automatically gets notable in the sense that we write Misplaced Pages articles about their personal feelings and opinons about that war. Don't be ridiculous. Are you drunk again? This is below your usual intellectual level when sober. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:04, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
- Now, that is a matter of debate. This is Fut.Perf's opinion, and he is entitled to have one (or, many). I feel, as long as the quotation/comment is appropriately attributed, and it is made clear in what capacity did the person made the opinion (whether he was a journalist, or, historian, or, common man), the comment is transparent enough to be here. Whether the comment has weightage enough to be here, depends on the commentator's designation/position. I feel he was in a position important enough to include this. Of course, he might not have seen what the German program looked like, but he had its perception common in that era expected for a person of his education/qualification.--Dwaipayan (talk) 20:57, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
- D'Costa is not a student. And she is well published in this field, my drinking habits are not really any of your concern. You say his views are not notable, a well published academic obviously feels otherwise, I will go with D'Costa over you. Darkness Shines (talk) 21:11, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
- If his views are so not notable then explain why Bina D'Costa tracked him down to interview him? And mentions his views in her work? Darkness Shines (talk) 20:53, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
- He is a reliable source for his own opinions, but his opinions are not notable and as such irrelevant for our article. What he isn't a reliable source for is the things he is expressing these opinions about, i.e. what the Bangladesh rapes were comparable with. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:43, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
- You're saying Davis is not reliable for his own words? Darkness Shines (talk) 20:38, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
Correction needed
Ref # 32 sourcing this text "The Pakistani army also raped Bengali males, to erode their masculinity and categorise them as homosexual. The army would stop men at checkpoints to see if they were circumcised, and this is where the rapes usually happened." probably needs to be corrected, as currently it points to page 73-74 of the book Rape in Wartime, but I can't find it there. --SMS 20:08, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
- Must be a typo on my part, I know it is in the source, give me a minute. Darkness Shines (talk) 20:18, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
- Just checked via Gbooks and amazon, not near my library at the mo, and they both say this on the pages given, what are you looking on? Darkness Shines (talk) 20:27, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
- My bad. Gbooks doesn't show page number of this book, so found it by trying random page number. But I found it at page 56. --SMS 20:55, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
Saikia, Yasmin
Yasmin Saikia has two books in the bibliography, both with the same year. They need to be distinguished, as right now it's impossible to tell which content is sourced to which book. -- Diannaa (talk) 03:08, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
- I have given the chapter title and page range in the bibliography, will that do? Darkness Shines (talk) 07:42, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
- You want to use "a", "b" after the year. See Template:Harvard citation documentation#More than one work in a year. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:55, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
- Excellent thanks, I shall go do it now. Darkness Shines (talk) 08:10, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
- You beat me to it, thanks. Darkness Shines (talk) 08:17, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
- You want to use "a", "b" after the year. See Template:Harvard citation documentation#More than one work in a year. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:55, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
Neutrality
The article has many neutrality flaws. It should describe the rape committed on all communities. But I regret, the current form of the article blames "Pakistani military" everywhere. Or more simply, the article is only for "Rapes of Bengalis during the Bangladesh Liberation War". The rapes and atrocities on Biharis, the Stranded Pakistanis need to be described too. The lead should also mention it, and the article needs serious fixing over neutrality issues. There is only one section of "Mukti Bahini actions" attribued to atrocities on Biharis, whereas the rest of the whole article is for the Bengalis. The lead can be restructured. (Redacted) I am going to make improvements shortly. I hope that the article of Persecution of Biharis in Bangladesh will help me out. Faizan 07:43, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
- That is not going to happen, you must bear due weight in mind. See previous discussion. Darkness Shines (talk) 08:13, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
Faizan, did you just copy over these new additions from some other article? They sound tacked on and poorly integrated in the context in this article. Very poor writing. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:18, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
- due weight does not provide you a cover over the neutrality flaws, Mr. DS! And @Fut.Perf., I will amend it where it needs it. I will look forward to your further suggestions or aid. Faizan 08:39, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
I have made most of the work, now concentrating on copy-editing and references. After that, the article is good to go for FA, if it is stable(no edit-warring please). Faizan 08:42, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
- I just reverted the edits of Faizan. As pointed out by FPaS, they are really poor writing and poorly integrated to the article. There was also some blatant POV edits like inserting the figures of Bihari deaths as "200,000-3,000,000" and mentioning the actions of Mukti Bahini twice in the lead. I would suggest Faizan to propose the edits here and wait for others' comment.--Zayeem 10:05, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
- How can the estimate for Bihari deaths be the same as the high end total for all killed in the conflict? Darkness Shines (talk) 14:25, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
- I don't know. It seems he first copied some texts from 1971 Bangladesh genocide and pasted here, then replaced the phrase "number of people killed" with "number of Biharis killed".--Zayeem 15:35, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
- Even 200000 is impossible, there were but 600000 in the country at the time, see Historical Dictionary of Bangladesh p 52. Darkness Shines (talk) 17:21, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
- I don't know. It seems he first copied some texts from 1971 Bangladesh genocide and pasted here, then replaced the phrase "number of people killed" with "number of Biharis killed".--Zayeem 15:35, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
- How can the estimate for Bihari deaths be the same as the high end total for all killed in the conflict? Darkness Shines (talk) 14:25, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
- I just reverted the edits of Faizan. As pointed out by FPaS, they are really poor writing and poorly integrated to the article. There was also some blatant POV edits like inserting the figures of Bihari deaths as "200,000-3,000,000" and mentioning the actions of Mukti Bahini twice in the lead. I would suggest Faizan to propose the edits here and wait for others' comment.--Zayeem 10:05, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
- due weight does not provide you a cover over the neutrality flaws, Mr. DS! And @Fut.Perf., I will amend it where it needs it. I will look forward to your further suggestions or aid. Faizan 08:39, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
Thanks to Kmzayeem for pointing this out. This edit alone is grounds enough to ask for a topic ban for Faizan. It's blatant source falsification. He must have known from the previous version (which he indeed copied from 1971 Bangladesh genocide that these were total figures across all ethnic groups, and he knowingly changed it to make it claim explicitly that it was Biharis alone. Who wants to file this at WP:AE? Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:50, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
Chapter titles
I was able to get some of the chapter titles from WorldCat. These four I was not able to get:
- Islam in the World Today: A Handbook of Politics, Religion, Culture, and Society - no Hans Harder is listed
- Yearbook of International Humanitarian Law – 2010: 13 - WorldCat does not list the chapter titles
- Oxford Encyclopedia of Women in World History - WorldCat does not list the chapter titles
- Statelessness and citizenship : a comparative study on the benefits of nationality - WorldCat does not list the chapter titles -- Diannaa (talk) 15:54, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
- Per Google Books:
- Hans Harder, "Bangladesh", p.350–358
- M. Zahurul Haq, "Case against Delwar Hossain Sayeedi", p.462f.
- Dina M. Siddiqi, "Bangladesh", Vol. I, p.201f.
- Katherine Southwick, "The Urdu-speakers of Bangladesh: an unfinished story of enforcing citizenship rights". p.115–141
- Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:30, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
- Super, we can add this when the in-use template comes down. -- Diannaa (talk) 16:39, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
- Cheers. Am adding these now. Darkness Shines (talk) 16:41, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
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