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Administrative discussions

Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive367#Close challenge for Talk:1948 Arab–Israeli War#RFC for Jewish exodus

(Initiated 38 days ago on 13 December 2024) challenge of close at AN was archived nableezy - 05:22, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

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Requests for comment

Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/In the news criteria amendments

(Initiated 105 days ago on 7 October 2024) Tough one, died down, will expire tomorrow. Aaron Liu (talk) 23:58, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 459#RFC_Jerusalem_Post

(Initiated 85 days ago on 28 October 2024) Participation/discussion has mostly stopped & is unlikely to pick back up again. - Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 21:15, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

 Note: This is a contentious topic and subject to general sanctions. - Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 21:15, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Archived. P.I. Ellsworth , ed.  22:26, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

would like to see what close is. seems like it was option 1 in general, possibly 1/2 for IP area. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 05:38, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Genocide#RfC: History section, adding native American and Australian genocides as examples

(Initiated 75 days ago on 6 November 2024) RfC expired on 6 December 2024 . No new comments in over a week. Bogazicili (talk) 15:26, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Australia#RFC: Should the article state that Indigenous Australians were victims of genocide?

(Initiated 74 days ago on 8 November 2024), RFC expired weeks ago. GoodDay (talk) 21:33, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Catholic Church#RfC: Establishing an independent Catholicism article

(Initiated 26 days ago on 26 December 2024) Requesting closure from uninvolved impartial third party to close a discussion that has not seen a novel argument for a bit. ~ Pbritti (talk) 18:21, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

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Deletion discussions

Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2025 January 18#Category:Belarusian saints

(Initiated 32 days ago on 20 December 2024) HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 23:10, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2025 January 6#Category:Misplaced Pages oversighters

(Initiated 32 days ago on 20 December 2024) HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 05:38, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2025 January 6#Redundant WPANIMATION categories

(Initiated 14 days ago on 6 January 2025) HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 05:35, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

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(Initiated 8 days ago on 13 January 2025) HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 08:14, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

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Other types of closing requests

Talk:Free and open-source software#Proposed merge of Open-source software and Free software into Free and open-source software

(Initiated 248 days ago on 17 May 2024) Would an uninvolved experienced editor please assess the consensus at Talk:Free and open-source software § Proposed merge of Open-source software and Free software into Free and open-source software? Thank you. — Newslinger talk 01:53, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Arab migrations to the Levant#Merger Proposal

(Initiated 118 days ago on 25 September 2024) Open for a while, requesting uninvolved closure. Andre🚐 22:15, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Winter fuel payment abolition backlash#Merge proposal

(Initiated 84 days ago on 29 October 2024) There are voices on both sides (ie it is not uncontroversial) so a non-involved editor is needed to evaluate consensus and close this. Thanks. PamD 09:55, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Israel–Hamas war#Survey

(Initiated 75 days ago on 7 November 2024) Looking for uninvolved close in CTOP please, only a few !votes in past month. I realise this doesn't require closing, but it is preferred in such case due to controversial nature of topic. CNC (talk) 10:44, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

•  Note: I'm happy to perform the merge if required, as have summarised other sections of this article already with consensus. I realise it's usually expected to perform splits or merges when closing discussions, but in this case it wouldn't be needed. CNC (talk) 20:28, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Talk:You Like It Darker#Proposed merge of Finn (short story) into You Like It Darker

(Initiated 24 days ago on 27 December 2024) Proposed merge discussion originally opened on 30 May 2024, closed on 27 October 2024, and reopened on 27 December 2024 following the closure being overturned at AN. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:22, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Selected Ambient Works Volume II#Proposed merge of Stone in Focus into Selected Ambient Works Volume II

(Initiated 14 days ago on 6 January 2025) Seeking uninvolved closure; proposal is blocking GA closure czar 11:47, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Donald Trump#Proposal to supersede consensus #50

(Initiated 10 days ago on 10 January 2025) Seeking uninvolved closure; its degenerated into silly sniping and has clearly run its course. Slatersteven (talk) 16:46, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Yup, the discussion does need to be closed. GoodDay (talk) 18:30, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

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Someone is proposing a community ban

I have moved this discussion from ANI to here because admin user:KrakatoaKatie commented in it below that "Community ban discussions belong at AN". I hope we are now in the correct place. Tradedia 02:55, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

Discussion here with examples provided: . Long story short, User:LightandDark2000 appears to be well versed in Misplaced Pages rules enough to defend himself lawyer style by insisting he acts in good faith and shouldn't be harassed or punitively blocked, but still refuses to engage users' criticism of his editing style. Criticisms include stretching ambiguous sources to support his edits, reverting sourced edits then not undoing that when corrected despite the restriction posed on us by the 1RR, and only engaging in minimal discussion whenever we try to bring up the topic. As I said in the discussion, this dispute dates back to at least June: .

Note this module is subject to WP:GS/SCW&ISIL and a 1RR. As I proposed in that discussion, letting an administrator talk to him may be more effective since he doesn't listen to us. NightShadeAEB (talk) 15:28, 18 March 2016 (UTC)

Community ban discussions belong at AN, not on an article talk page. It certainly does seem that this editor is tendentious. The block log is longer than my arm. Katie 16:39, 18 March 2016 (UTC)

"The block log is longer than my arm" - That kind of jaded hyperbole is completely unnecessary, and in this case quite disingenuous. Just sayin'... - WOLFchild 21:26, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

Wouldn't CB discussions be at WP:ANI (here)? WP:AN is mostly more esoteric admin notices, and isn't what "the community" rather, the subset of the community with any stomach for these discussions) pays much attention to.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ≼  22:38, 18 March 2016 (UTC)

While AN is the better place for these things, it usually gets decided on ANI anyway. Everything happens on ANI. -- The Voidwalker 23:15, 18 March 2016 (UTC)

Regardless as to whether or not ANI is the proper venue for discussing community bans, I have placed a hat on the discussion on the talk page, redirecting users to this thread. -- The Voidwalker 23:46, 18 March 2016 (UTC)

I recently requested to get a topic ban lifted on WP:ANI only to be told toward the end when it was clear it would not be lifted that I should have made the request at WP:AN. While it is clear the article talk page is not the correct place for discussion of bans, we need clearer instructions for editors on where is the correct place. DrChrissy 23:54, 18 March 2016 (UTC)

The problem is deeper and more persistent than the above seems to indicate. User:LightandDark2000 is a POV pusher who has been a very disruptive editor for a long time on the Syria module. His bad faith, bad source edits that broke long established consensus has turned all editors against him. You can read entire sections of complaints about him on the talk pages: Talk:Cities and towns during the Syrian Civil War/Archive 60#I propose community ban on user:LightandDark2000 editing Syria- and Iraq-related maps, Talk:Cities and towns during the Syrian Civil War/Archive 50#LightandDark2000, Talk:Cities and towns during the Syrian Civil War/Archive 60#Bad Edit: Raqqa Frontline and Module talk:Iraqi insurgency detailed map/Archive 4#User:LightandDark2000.

He has a habit of deleting complaint messages from his own talk page so that it would not reveal who he really is. Take a look at the history of edits of his talk page and you will discover dozens and dozens of deleted complaint messages from just the last year. Let me illustrate his general attitude by giving as an example, his latest "deletion". A user in good faith writes to him: "Your source: http://en.ypgnews.tk/2016/03/15/anti-is-forces-close-in-on-groups-raqqa-hq.html is a dead link. Please provide another source." You can verify that the link is indeed a dead link since it just leads you to the "main page" of the website (en.ypgnews.com). User:LightandDark2000 deletes the message with the edit summary: "It is not a dead link. Fix your computer." You can even see that in this same edit, he increments his "vandalism counter" ({{User:UBX/vandalized|47}}) by 1, implying that the user's message on his talk page, was vandalism!

Also there was a report about him at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive904#User:LightandDark2000 intentionally misinterpret sources for editing Cities and towns during the Syrian Civil War and similar pages where he was blocked for one month. The mess he creates regularly takes time to be cleaned. He injects in the map his POV pushing and total disregard for other editors’ opinions, sources and established consensus & rules. He has done nothing but make the map wrong with his POV pushing & unresponsive behavior towards other editors. I am asking for him to be permanently banned from Module:Syrian Civil War detailed map. Tradedia 17:33, 19 March 2016 (UTC) @bot: do not archive yet. 14:28, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

I have noticed that almost every single feed in the links provided are run/dominated by users that hate me. I see this, as well as this entire proposal, as unfairly biased. You cannot proposal a ban, or a block, just because someone has made a number of mistakes (in good faith, I might add). By the way, a permanent ban is unnecessary overkill (See WP:PUNITIVE). I have never tried to "ruin the map" or "vandalize", or "force my own point of view", I only tried to edit honestly according to the rules of Misplaced Pages, and recently, the localized rules added in in the sanctions. It's true that I have made mistakes. But everyone made mistakes, and I have always tried to correct my mistakes when I realized that I had made some, or at least brought it to discussion. Blocks and sanctions are not meant to be punitive either, so I can't see how this proposal (especially given the bias of the user who originally proposed it) has any legitimacy as well. If we were to follow this line of logic, every one of the users who has been complaining/pushing for me to be "permanently banned" should be banned as well. Not only have I been harassed on the Syria module talk, but I have also been attacked by a couple of users on the talk page, as you can see here. Why should I be banned when I am editing out of good faith, have absolutely no intention of disrupting or vandalizing the map, and there are also a number of users I get along with quite well on the module/article in question. By the way, there are a number of users (including some of those pushing for this ban) who have committed much more "POV" edits than those I have allegedly or unintentionally done (some of the mhave also engaged in serious cases of edit warring in the past few months). The users that are biased against be are currently dominating this discussion, and they are ganging up om me in an attempt to kick me off the module; I feel like I am being harassed through this proposal. Also, this "good faith" editor 2601:C7:8301:8D74:1DB4:BFDC:1999:782E that Tradedia cited is actually a WP:SOCKPUPPET of User:Pbfreespace3, where there is an ongoing SPI investigation regarding his active user of sockpuppets to cirvumvent his block. The fact that such biased users were cited as "good examples," including a sockpuppet, astonishes me and makes me question the very purpose of this proposal. I strongly believe that the users pushing for this ban want to ban me out of annoyance and punitive motives, not because of any good faith. I have also noticed that the vast majority of users who commented in the recent ban proposal (including the original proposal on the Syria module talk) are the users who are biased against me, so please note this carefully. And pertaining to the Syria module talk, a user there said, "I wouldn't go so far as to ban him..." and another said that "I think that not need a ban for editor user:LightandDark2000 he sometimes made mistakes but he said that he will no longer break the rules so I think do not need to judge him so severely. Each of us can make a mistake but it is always necessary to give a chance to mend..." If we were to ban or block a user every time they made a mistake on these "hot/contested topic" areas, we would hardly have any editors left to edit articles in any of those errors. Therefore, in light of the circumstances and the people involved in this proposal, I believe that this ban proposal should be declined. LightandDark2000 (talk) 07:38, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

I will respond to the main points of your defense paragraph:

• You say: “almost every single feed in the links provided are run/dominated by users that hate me.” I have counted a total of 16 different users on these feeds. So that’s a lot of “haters”! The relevant question is why a lot of these users “hate” you? Did it occur to you that this is because of your edits and attitude?
• You mention the important notion of assuming “good faith”. However after a while, the assumption of good faith can be completely obliterated by months and months of watching you make dishonest edit after dishonest edit.
• You invoke WP:PUNITIVE. However, you have to realize that the ban is not being requested to punish you, but rather to protect the map from your damaging edits that make it wrong and ruin its reputation, therefore spoiling the hard work of many honest editors.
• You claim that you have been “harassed” and “attacked”. However, users criticizing your edits should not be viewed as harassment or personal attacks. These users have nothing against you as a person. They have a problem with your edits. Instead of feeling like you have been victimized, you should instead ask yourself the question of why there is so much negativity around you. Opening a section discussing your bad edits and attitude is legitimate because they harm the encyclopedia, even if the venue should have been ANI instead of the module’s talk page.
• You mention that “there are a number of users (including some of those pushing for this ban) who have committed much more POV edits” than you. Other users behaving badly is not a valid excuse. If someone is breaking Misplaced Pages policy, then you should report them, as I have done myself this week, and this has resulted in blocks.
• Your bringing up accusations of sockpuppetry is really beside the point. Whether the IP is a sockpuppet or not is a matter to be determined at SPI. What is in focus here is your behavior and your general attitude in responding to valid questions. As your history of edits shows, you also respond the same way to users you do not accuse of sockpuppetry.
• You mention that “a user said, "I wouldn't go so far as to ban him..." However, this is the same user who subsequently opened this section here at ANI. So he must have changed his mind given your continued unresponsiveness… I think that your reaction to the latest section about you on the module’s talk page has been very disappointing to many users who feel that this is now a hopeless case. Tradedia 11:50, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

I did not know that he was banned before for the same issue, which is why I did not support a ban. I still don't, I'd rather a moderator gives him a clear warning that if his behaviour persists, he'd see a topic ban or block. To be fair I was gonna bring up the vandalism counter myself, but after reading this discussion of the sockpuppetry investigation I realized it had a good explanation. The rest of the deletions do not, however. I brought this to ANI because I wasn't aware of what the protocol is for someone proposing a ban in a talk page, but it was clear there was a dispute and I figured an admin would be listened to by the user, since he doesn't listen to anyone else.

User:LightandDark2000 I keep repeating this every time, the biggest issue is your unresponsiveness to discussion. All of us regular contributors regularly engage each other in thorough discussion whenever a controversy emerges, you don't. I don't want to project onto your intentions, but your extensive use of Misplaced Pages policy links to defend yourself shows me that you are completely aware of what type of community Misplaced Pages is supposed to be, and this makes the assumption of good faith really hard to maintain. It's true users lose patience and regrettably resort to frustrated outbursts, but that does not erase the original criticism that you seek to ignore.

It is very hard to defend you considering this has been ongoing for a year. If you wish to avoid being blocked, as there appear to be growing calls for that, this is the right moment to show you understand what's wrong and pledge to right it. NightShadeAEB (talk) 13:21, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

And I must add, your claim that people are only criticizing you because they hate you personally is a sign of WP:CABALS and WP:MPOV. The ban proposals aren't to punish you, but to prevent disruptions to the map. You must focus on how disruptions can be prevented rather than on how it's unfair to you as a person. NightShadeAEB (talk) 13:37, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

• Enough, I suggest that (although I will probably insert random horrible thing here just for being the one to suggest it) User:LightandDark2000 receive a indefinite ban from Module:Syrian Civil War detailed map, due to repeated irresponsible editing as described above. Happy_Attack_Dog (Throw Me a Bone) 16:32, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

• Indefinite ban, for sure. BTW, he continues to misinterpret sources even today, like here, when he uses sentence "With all hilltops around the city captured" to justify changing village (not hill!), as far as 17 km from the city edge, to gov-controlled. If this isn't playing stupid (I don't know politically correct way to say this), I really don't know what is. Please stop this guy, he is really taking everyone's time and he should be dealt with like any other vandal. --Hogg 22 (talk) 12:24, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

Please stop with the personal attacks. It's not civil, and it demonstrates poor character and an unwillingness to work with others. You are also confusing vandalism with good faith edits made in error. LightandDark2000 (talk) 08:55, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

How many times a person can ignore what he is told and do it his way before it's obvious he is playing stupid? 5 times? 10? 20? I think You passed all that limits. Assuming good faith doesn't mean letting one person making idiots of 10 others indefinitely. --Hogg 22 (talk) 09:05, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

Unfortunately despite all appeals User:LightandDark2000 continues to play lawyer and deliberately ignores the subject matter. He does not respond to criticisms while asking detractors to remain civil, he uses the lack of civility as a smokescreen to avoid having to listen to the discussion at all. This is extremely frustrating and is the cause of why too many editors lose their patience with you in the first place. Those that attack you could well be wrong, but your unresponsiveness is itself the original sin. NightShadeAEB (talk) 23:12, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

Sorry for not addressing this earlier, but I'm quite busy as a person. This is the reason for my lack of participation in many discussions (some of which I regret). I probably could have done better, and I am sorry about by lack of input in many past discussion, but I do try my best to respond to discussions involving crucial issues. I will make more of an effort to engage in future discussions, where or when my attention is required. LightandDark2000 (talk) 02:10, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

So you are too "busy as a person" to "participate in discussions", yet you find the time to make 500 edits in the last 40 days? Tradedia 09:42, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

Proposed topic ban on user:Chjoaygame to not edit quantum theory articles

Moved from Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Physics#Proposed topic ban on user:Chjoaygame to not edit quantum theory articles

user:Chjoaygame has various misinterpretations of quantum theory, its concepts, formalisms, and notations. He will not break out of them, instead resorting to treatises of the pioneers as the final word. Including pioneering work of Dirac, Feynman, von Neumann, you name them, is a good thing for historical context. Trying to write an article in the same archaic terms they used is not helpful as Ch would have us think. As much as possible, Ch avoids mathematics, including standard terminology, and uses enormous quantities of prose.

His style of talk page discussion is particularly tiresome, endless nitpicking, thanking, apologizing, citations, quotes, and insinuations when he doesn't get his way, and even accusations that his point (or a point made by a pioneering physicist) has not been resolved. Often wall after wall of text is written. Also, when other editors propose a rewrite, whatever the choice of terminology, however things are phrased, Ch simply must use different words, often obscure, non-standard, or archaic. This is all cloaked in a very politically correct style.

Examples I have been recently involved with are

• Talk:Bra–ket notation
• Talk:Wave function archives 3-10 (especially 8 onwards) and edit history

but see also Talk:Quantum mechanics and its archives and edit history. For Talk:Wave function, the fact that four archives this year and three archives last year have been necessary, AND no progress has been made from "WP:AGF" discussions with this editor, is a clear sign the articles will not progress either, and they have not as long as he edits. Everyone just leaves frustrated.

I have not engaged with this editor as extensively as others, such as user:YohanN7, user:Tsirel, user:Waleswatcher, but enough to convince me that Ch is wasting time. Also, Ch engages with the thermodynamics articles, but I don't follow them much. Many users on this Wikiproject will know I am prone to mistakes, misinterpretations, and even get rude/uptight sometimes. But I do not perpetuate, nor argue on and on and on to have things my way, or the pioneer's way. Get this - even I can find Ch to be mistaken, which says something.

This is not a personal attack. It is well meant. Ch may well be polite and seem very resourceful, but is overall destructive for the above reasons, at least in the quantum theory articles.

If this ban fails, then it fails. But it's high time for Ch to desist from editing quantum articles until he changes his view on the subject, maybe even self-experiment in the basic mathematics required for the theory, it leads to a deeper understanding than just reading. M∧ŜcħεИ_τlk 16:17, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

• Agree with topic ban. User does not edit to improve articles but to exercise his idiosyncratic views. Extend ban to all physics topics. Xxanthippe (talk) 21:38, 2 April 2016 (UTC).
• I remember a couple of years ago the user was a part of the gang which was doing damage to the articles on thermodynamics, and refusing to accept the quotes from the undergraduate text I am using in my teaching saying they are "wrong". I just walked away, unwatched all the articles, and never edited any of them ever since. Now I see the same damage to the quantum physics articles, endless rewriting without any point, using 100-years-old terminology. This needs to be stopped.--Ymblanter (talk) 09:37, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

Here.Chjoaygame (talk) 19:24, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

Bingo: --Ymblanter (talk) 19:34, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

• Agree with topic ban. About his idiosyncratic views: he belongs to a small minority of the so-called "entanglement deniers" (or "Bell theorem denialists", etc). I tried hard to discuss this matter with him, but unsuccessfully; see here. Boris Tsirelson (talk) 10:29, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

The trigger for this proposal to ban was , saying that I do not accept the proposer's airbrushing out Dirac's repeated and clear statement that bras and kets cannot be split into real and pure imaginary parts. No problem for that with wave functions, of course. If Editor Tsirel thinks that bras and kets can be split into real and pure imaginary parts, I will be enlightened. If he thinks my holding fast on the point is a fair trigger for a topic ban, I will also be enlightened.Chjoaygame (talk) 14:41, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

Talk:Bra-ket notation is certainly not the only trigger for having you banned Chjoaygame. Your rambles, quotes, and insinuations all over the QM talk pages (especially Talk:Wave function) have multiple people frustrated and enough is enough. M∧ŜcħεИ_τlk 15:24, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

On the entanglement thing. Of course I agree with Schrödinger that entanglement is a fact. So I don't accept that I am an "entanglement denier". I don't accept reasoning that this implies action at a distance. If Bell's theorem is taken to imply that there is action at a distance, I still don't accept action at a distance. The setting of the angle of the polarizer sets the wave function basis, but it doesn't affect the quantum state, which is independent of the wave function basis. The physical thing is the quantum state, not the wave function. So changing the setting of the angle of the polarizer can change the wave function at a distance, but that is not a change of physical fact. Subject to correction, I have an idea that Editor Tsirel doesn't accept action at a distance? Whatever, I don't edit on the Bell thing, so I don't think that is a reason to topic-ban me.Chjoaygame (talk) 15:07, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

May be some explanation would be in order. It is not the best Misplaced Pages argument, but in this thread, most of the people voting for topic-ban have some real-life credentials related to quantum physics, whereas Chjoaygame, to the best of my knowledge, has none.--Ymblanter (talk) 14:45, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

• Interaction ban, That user keeps doing something negative things to the talk pages. KGirlTrucker87 (talk) 11:37, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
• Agree with topic ban Either a ban or a warning Here is a sample bad edit on the Heat article. The second paragraph (Because...) in this original version contains a useful discussion of how heat is not a state function. A version of this paragraph was inserted over a year ago as per this discussion (I called myself guyvan52 back then). After a few edits by Ch we have this newer revision in which the second paragraph was replaced with historical content (Originally...), and the links to State function and Process function were removed (although I concede that the new link to Thermodynamic process is welcome). The editor has good intentions and is extremely knowledgeable about the history. Perhaps a warning and some coaching would be more appropriate? He needs to understand that the community probably wants articles that explain the physics/mathematics, not so much the history.--Guy vandegrift (talk) 12:39, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

"Some coaching", WP:AGF, and general patience has occurred long enough with Editor Chjoaygame. The time when Ch could be collaborated with is long gone. Hence this topic ban. M∧ŜcħεИ_τlk 15:24, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

Well, I said either..or, so a topic ban on quantum would satisfy that request. And it would serve as a warning on Thermo.--Guy vandegrift (talk) 05:41, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

I withdraw my suggestion that a warning might be sufficient. After reviewing Talk:Bra–ket notation I realized that the detailed effort to quote from four editions of Diracs book (1930-1958) exposes either a complete lack of understanding, or an inability to control one's emotions in a discussion. A topic ban on quantum mechanics is entirely appropriate.--Guy vandegrift (talk) 08:52, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

Or perhaps an interest to try to see the progress of Dirac's thinking on the way to his bra-ket notation? And to show that he didn't change his mind all that much?Chjoaygame (talk) 09:09, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

• Agree with topic ban. Chjoaygame seems to have a poor understanding of quantum mechanics (despite high self-confidence) and has caused lots of wasted time and frustration for a lot of people because of that. --Steve (talk) 21:13, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

Not entirely wasted. I have learnt valuable things from my efforts to respond to undoes of my edits. The undoes were thereby valuable. And even another editor learnt a small thing.Chjoaygame (talk) 00:34, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

• Agree with topic ban. Chjoaygame is simply beyond reach for sensible discussion. There's nobody home. This, by itself, is not punishable. Ignorance is not either punishable. But I believe that Chjoaygame's behavior on talk pages is punishable. Behind all politeness, there are usually badly hidden insinuations. He'll never drop an old discussion. He is occasionally hiding behind "good faith" and affects the look of a puppy that someone has kicked (). Follow the link to the actual eidt of the article, and you shall see that Chjoaygame is preaching some sort of religion rather than established science. He knows what he is doing (no "good faith" there). His style of editing when he encounters resistance is the most provocative imaginable. He knows what he is doing in that respect too. The result is that competent editors busy in real life are shying away. I know this for a fact, since I have email contact with more than one around here. Chjoaygame is in my opinion a burden for Misplaced Pages and is hindering article development. YohanN7 (talk) 09:18, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

Hold on. We are not into punishment here. We just want to make sure that the development of Misplaced Pages is not obstructed in the future. Xxanthippe (talk) 02:32, 5 April 2016 (UTC).

Editor Xxanthippe makes a fair point. Editor Ymblanter complains above about me that I was a member of an alleged "gang" that over-ruled an edit that he made. His edit was based on one textbook source. He did not try to weigh it against the many other sources that his alleged "gang" relied upon. His edit was over-ruled indeed by several long-standing editors of the page, acting in accord with a long-standing consensus, the result of long debate. But it seems that he now holds it against me that I supported that consensus, by which his edit was rejected. Editor YohanN7 just above says above about me that I am "beyond reach" and that "there is nobody home". This in a context in which one of the two points at issue was later settled mathematically in my favour, after the present topic ban proposal. Was I not home there? If my edit were to be struck down safely, some other reason would have been needed. But instead, a topic ban was proposed. No RfC, no third opinion. Editor Sbyrnes has now, during the topic ban process, appeared to give a third opinion, against my edit on the grounds of non-notability, in favor nevertheless of my mathematics. If Editor Sbyrnes had offered his third opinion earlier, things might have turned out very differently. If other editors had been "home", they might also have given their opinions. Editor Tsirel holds it against me that in user talk-page conversation I did not knuckle under to his belief that there is something "shocking" about Bell's theorem, a topic on which I now do not edit because I know the strength of belief of Bell's theorists. Editor Tsirel branded me with the incriminative term 'denialist'. The point on which I stand is that Bell's theorem cannot be used to establish action at a distance. I think that some Bell's theorists also believe that Bell's theorem does not establish action at a distance, which they word as 'no transmission of information'. I think, subject to correction, that even Editor Tsirel holds that it does not establish action at a distance? He holds that it is "shocking". Is this a sound basis on which to topic-ban me? Editor Xxanthippe just above is of the view that respected editor YohanN7 is talking about punishing me. With a permanent ban. Sudden death, not even an RfC between a BRD (in which I did not offend) and a permanent ban. Editor YohanN7 complains that he is the only editor to weigh in heavily against me; indeed he has not received much support from other editors, who seem to have relied on his respected status to act on their behalves, perhaps as their proxies. He is even calling on private emails as proxy support. Suddenly even Editor Ymblanter takes an interest. My transgression is too much talk on talk pages, and too many citations of candidate reliable sources, and not knuckling under, even when I have mathematical correctness on my side. My dissent is that the approach of these articles is massively overweighted in favour of mathematics not supplied with physical meaning, when the topic is essentially physics. Editor YohanN7 has been left largely alone and unsupported, along with Editor Maschen, to defend the no-physical-meaning over-weighting. This is Misplaced Pages, not a textbook of the mathematics of quantum mechanics. Misplaced Pages is primarily an ordinary-language general-access encyclopedia. Editor YohanN7 has an axe to grind, that mathematics is the sole language of physics, and that my ordinary-language approach is inappropriate. One can understand his frustration. One may ask, is it best simply to censor dissent with a sudden-death topic ban? I think Editor Xxanthippe has made a fair point.Chjoaygame (talk) 06:57, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

To simplify my point, I believe that you are lacking basic knowledge of physics (not just quantum physics) while pretending the opposite and editing the physics articles disruptively, wasting time of other contributors. Therefore you should be forced (by means of a topic ban) to stop editing physics articles.--Ymblanter (talk) 07:00, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

Not the place for a content dispute, but here is my short reply. (1) No one says that Bell's theorem establishes action at a distance; rather, that at least one of "three key concepts – locality, realism, freedom" must be abandoned. (2) Maybe "entanglement denier" is not an apt term, but I did not invent it; this is just a label used in discussions (on the Internet, and privately); also "Bell theorem denialist" is (just ask Google). Boris Tsirelson (talk) 07:26, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

About the balance between ordinary-language and math-language in physics, I do not vote, since I am a mathematician, not a physicist. But I am pleased to see (above) the opinion of several physicists. Boris Tsirelson (talk) 07:46, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

I have absolutely no objection to the use of ordinary language in articles — as long as the ordinary language underlies the conclusions reached by more formal approach, and not undermines them! Boris Tsirelson (talk) 10:03, 5 April 2016 (UTC) And similarly: no objection to some history of (say) quantum mechanics, as long as this history underlies, not undermines, the current worldview. Boris Tsirelson (talk) 10:47, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

In response to Xxanthippe: Now, if we don't say that Chjoaygame's past behavior and edits are punishable, how are we going to say that his "future edits and behavior are preemptively punishable"? How the hell are we going to say that? (There you go Chj. A bit of support for you.) No, either you say Chjoaygame's past behavior and edits are intolerable, hence punishable - or you don't. If you don't, you have to let him go. I am clear: Chjoaygame's past behavior and edits are intolerable. YohanN7 (talk) 10:19, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

Additions to the initial post: I forgot to mention at the top (though it may be well-known and unnecessary) that:

• "Quantum theory" here includes any article which involves quantum mechanics and quantum field theory, non-relativistic or relativistic.
• Editor Chjoaygame's interactions are very delocalized, and there is always something new for him to argue about.
  • When caught out on the spot and unable to answer, he evades the situation, and changes the subject with excuses like "no comment", "Argumentum ad verecundiam", "the foregoing thread was disorderly, it would be out of order to reply to it" (see Talk:Wave function/Archive 10 for examples).
  • A talk page thread could start on the topic of the article, say wave functions, then it will soon change to preparations of states, mixed states, species, "quantum analyzers", "ovens" and "anti-ovens", Stern-Gerlach magnets, measurements, Bell inequalities, the list goes on...

Ch is absolutely refusing to change his behavior, continuing to accuse others of being wrong while he was supposedly correct all the time, trying to convince us the ban is out of sheer spite. It is not a "sudden death" - Ch is not being killed. Something must be done else the QM and QFT articles will be a disaster complete with ovens, anti-ovens, and analyzers. M∧ŜcħεИ_τlk 10:45, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

Chjoaygame does not respect when an editor retracts a comment: . He retracted the retract. I remade it: , asking him politely to respect that an editor retracts his post. Chjoaygame cannot respect that either. I am in favor of a ban period, at least for a good while, of this individual. He is apparently trying to make life a living hell for anyone having ever opposed him in the past. It doesn't quite bite on me, and it is also probably not possible to keep him legally from raising mayhem on his own talk page. I can easily sense that others, less used to Chjoaygame, would feel not so at ease having him around. It is not only a matter of knowledgeable editors with plenty of routine. It is a matter of newcomers and fresh students. They can certainly make contributions, and may be very enthusiastic about it, but what if they suddenly face Chjoaygame? It is hardly an inviting environment for article work. YohanN7 (talk) 13:24, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

I recall this message from Chjoaygame: this diff "Thank you for your care in this. Sorry to take up your time. This isn't really a problem to ask you about. Please don't spend more time on this; you have other things to do."

Assuming good faith (for now), I treat this as genuine concern about my precious time. Assuming the good faith also in other cases, I guess that Chjoaygame divides all wiki editors into two classes: experts and non-experts. Experts should concentrate on more important challenges than Misplaced Pages. Non-experts should not prevent him to improve Misplaced Pages. Thus, I conclude, he is a very interesting case of "ideal wiki editor": not too busy and enough qualified. He is also ideal editor in his attitude toward sources: he reads great minds (mostly, Dirac), makes them available to everyone, and always provides refs. His deep understanding of the great minds gives him the right to go against the mainstream in quite fundamental matters (such as Bell theorem). But, assuming the good faith, I get a contradiction. His time should be more precious than mine: he should return the (lost in the dark) mainstream back to the light of founding fathers! Well... maybe the solution is this: Misplaced Pages is, in his opinion, the right instrument for this work. Wow! Boris Tsirelson (talk) 17:33, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

His collaboration mode: "That is why I have chosen my own particular profession, or rather created it, for I am the only one in the world" (Sherlock Holmes). Boris Tsirelson (talk) 17:49, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

I followed the discussion between Tsirel and Chjoaygame on Bell's theorem, but was unable to ascertain whether Ch is or is not an "entanglement denier". It seems to me that Ch just likes to redefine terminology (e.g. by replacing the conventional phrase "Quantum pseudotelepathy" with "absence of action at a distance"). My unpleasant experience with Ch on Heat was partly my fault. While three editors were involved, the third editor did not participate very much. Chjoaygame's insistence on doing the lede his way was too much for me and I began to curtail my edits after that. The problem with Chjoaygame is that he doesn't think like most (or nearly all) physicists. The issue that caused me to vote for the ban on quantum articles wasn't rude behavior but his insistence that Dirac's bra-kets cannot have real and imaginary parts. That issue suffers from a severe lack of WP:notability (the complex conjugate of a ket could be defined but nobody would want to do it). Statements about notability involve opinions (not facts), and therefore such discussions need to end quickly. His efforts to push such nonstarters on the talk pages makes it difficult to improve articles. Aside: I also moved my Let me digress a bit to my talk page to make it easier to add comments to this discussion--Guy vandegrift (talk) 11:27, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

"The problem with Chjoaygame is that he doesn't think like most (or nearly all) physicists." — Yes! I guess, he knows physics better than a typical historian of physics, and knows the history of physics better than a typical physicist. That should be nice, but... I know personally a historian of mathematics that is extremely aggressive toward the current mathematics. I also know one or two others who behave much calmer, but are critical, too. I guess that there is such a phenomenon: someone studies the history of science, and feels competent to correct the present-day science by some return to the past. I guess, this is futile. Boris Tsirelson (talk) 20:49, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

Another "problem with Chjoaygame is that he doesn't" speak "like most (or nearly all) physicists". His way of using language is closer to that of humanities (which is natural for a historian), and quite different from the style of hard science. "Too long; didn't read" is often the reaction of a physicist. Our thoughts may be fuzzy when we think, but our arguments should be sharp when we speak/write. Boris Tsirelson (talk) 21:06, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

• Comment. What Dirac was saying is that complex vectors are required because real parts or imaginary parts of these vectors don't describe physical objects by themselves (when taken separately). In dim 3, when you only have three real coordinates, you are unable to perform a change of basis, i.e. describe what would see another observer. Because this would require to know the six real coordinates (i.e. the three complex coordinates). I am not sure of what User:Chjoaygame wanted to say, but I think that assertion "three is less than six" is (1) sufficiently short and simple to be read by anyone of whatever background (2) stated in words whose meaning should have not evolved along the centuries. Pldx1 (talk) 21:50, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

Well, Chjoaygame's latest activities in talk:bra-ket notation would never by themselves have provoked this. His current activities there reflect an attack of sanity unusual for him. Presumably, the present ANI makes him tone down a bit. He can't refrain though from trying to create the impression that "he was right all the time". This is still typical. His more honest reflexions on the topic at hand can be found in talk:wave function. There is a 100-fold worse material in talk:wave function, present and archives. It is important to point out that this is not about right or wrong in the hundreds of different issues and (usually) non-issues raised by this individual. It is about Chjoaygame's relentless and provoking pushing of his unique POV. YohanN7 (talk) 09:05, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

Final additions Although a couple of days ago I swore off to myself to not contribute anymore here, for the uninvolved I'll just give one more heads up to a better picture of the editor, in case it isn't obvious. See his recent edit history since the start of this ban, as well as User talk:Chjoaygame (especially User talk:Chjoaygame/archive 3). Ch, with some nerve, is taking every opportunity to display other editor's comments (however old) censored to his convenience, displayed on his talk page or an archive, while touting his apparent "correctness" and other people's "errors". Since Ch defers to WP policies when it suits him, there is WP:STICK to consider, and yes WP:TLDR is definitely relevant to Ch.

Also, along with Xxanthippe and Ymblanter, I agree the ban should extend to all physics articles, shuddering to think what will become of our relativity articles if Ch invades those too as some self-portrayed disciple of Einstein, Lorentz, Schwarzchild, you name them. However, others here may only agree with a topic ban on quantum physics, which should be the minimum that most of us agree on. This is the last of what I will say. M∧ŜcħεИ_τlk 08:52, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

@Maschen: a minor correction: A ban isn't what most of us agree on, but what all (but Ch) agree on (apology for dangling participle). Switching the question to a physics ban would require that we start this discussion from the beginning. A ban restricted to quantum would give Ch the opportunity to reform, and an absence of reform would make it easier to get the ban on all physics. @Chjoaygame: Why don't you start a parallel article on the history of quantum mechanics? All the physicists agree that your edits are making the articles harder for physics students to read.--Guy vandegrift (talk) 14:44, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

Hmm.Chjoaygame (talk) 15:43, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

In response to User:Guy vandegrift, yes, "most/all" of us, whatever, just being neutral in case someone actually comes along to oppose the ban on the grounds I am being "too harsh", "uncivil", "spiteful", they can take their pick.

I realize the discussion would have to be restarted if the ban extension to all physics articles was required, which is why this happened, followed by this, merely stating a ban on QM+QFT is the minimum which should be done.

Also, please don't encourage Ch to write his own article(s), "parallel" or not, because C could invade/damage other pages in the process for "innocent" reasons like links, cross-references, citations, even if not it will be almost certainly something to delete eventually anyway. It also contradicts your assertion that a QM topic ban is appropriate because Ch is still technically engaged with editing on WP in the subject. It's not only students that Ch befuddles and annoys, but even knowledgeable non-experts and experts. M∧ŜcħεИ_τlk 21:57, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

Some samples:

Here, Chj hijacks a thread. An editor asks a question (about position and momentum representations of a state) and Chj goes ballistic about something else (anti-ovens or whatever), presumably supporting Editor Vaughan Pratt.

Long long ramble cut out...

... I think Editor Vaughan Pratt is concerned about this.

What? VP asks a question, half of which a junior first-timer in a QM course can answer after one week. Chj does not possess this knowledge, instead furiously attacks further after my patient explanation.

In this one, (scroll up to label "concern", link does not work well), Cjoaygame asserts

As I read it, this part of the present article flatly contradicts the consensus of Born, Bohr, Heisenberg, Rosenfeld, Kramers, Messiah, Weinberg, and Dirac.

The referred to parts, listed below for convenience,

• Wave functions corresponding to a state are not unique. This has been exemplified already with momentum and position space wave functions describing the same abstract state.
• The abstract states are "abstract" only in that an arbitrary choice necessary for a particular explicit description of it is not given. This is analogous to a vector space without a specified basis.
• The wave functions of position and momenta, respectively, can be seen as a choice of basis yielding two different, but entirely equivalent, explicit descriptions of the same state.
• Corresponding to the two examples in the first item, to a particular state there corresponds two wave functions, Ψ(x, Sz) and Ψ(p, Sy), both describing the same state.

are highly trivial non-controversial facts. For Chj, they are either new or don't fit into his religion. I don't know which, and I don't really care.

On occasion, Chj starts vetting real scientists, like here (Link works poorly. Scroll up to label "A distinction drawn by Weinberg".).

Weinberg is at fault in logic here. He is conflating...

Wow. Just wow.

I ask of no one to read all of Chj's gibberish. But those who decide on this issue should read at least some. Talk:Wave function/Archive 5 is fairly representative. YohanN7 (talk) 11:18, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

Indeed, we must be thankful to YohanN7 for the sample, since it would be a torture "to read all of Chj's gibberish". Boris Tsirelson (talk) 15:14, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

A counter sample, this time of Editor YohanN7 on my talk page:

But I believe that this statement isn't generally true;

Roughly speaking, a vapour-containing oven with a hole in its wall emits a beam of atoms in a mixed state.

If you lower the intensity to one atom at-a-time, these atoms are decidedly in a pure state (wave packages). You might speculate about single atoms in a high-intensity beam being in a mixed state if there is significant interaction between the atoms. Then some of the conditions described in L&L apply, because we would be looking at a subsystem. But it is still not clean cut. The system as a whole can hardly qualify as closed.

I'd also say that nature does not habitually deliver mixed states when you consider small systems, like a definite isolated collection of particles. Mixed states in those cases only appear when you consider a subsystem. This is exactly the way L&L defines it. I'd guess that in the typical setup in accelerator experiments, the intensities of the beams are low enough that particles in the beams do not interact with other particles in the same beam.

I think this casts light on the level of physical understanding of my present attacker.Chjoaygame (talk) 21:02, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

A content dispute, again... but I feel I have to reply. The quote above is a part of discussion where both parties were somewhat in the dark. "It would be hard in practice to prepare a beam that was in exactly some fully specified mixed state." (Chjoaygame, in the same discussion.) No, this is not at all hard. There are many ways to do it. For instance, it is very easy to prepare a thermal state (at a given temperature), described by the Hibbs density matrix; ironically, this is just what the oven prepares! In that discussion, both parties seem to understand that "mixed" should be "correlated with something else", but YohanN7 thinks about correlation with another particle of the same beam (rather than the oven and the environment), and Chjoaygame does not clarify, correlated with what. Boris Tsirelson (talk) 06:11, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

Thank you, Editor Tsirel, for this valuable comment. I posted the counter-sample in order to cast light on the level of physical understanding of my attacker, not to start a content debate. But since you have nearly done that, I may say thank you for picking up my one-word slip in my post on my talk page. Of course, as you rightly observe, I slipped by omitting the word 'arbitrary'. The sentence that I wrote in my talk page that you have copied here ought to have read with that word included: It would be hard in practice to prepare a beam that was in exactly some arbitrary fully specified mixed state. Because I was concerned to make the very same point that you rightly make here, I had already cited the systems emerging from the oven as mixed, an obvious example of mixedness. I was concerned that my interlocutor seemed to utterly deny this. The ordinary definition of a mixed state that I intend is one that is observed to be such that when the analysis(=Dirac's "sorting apparatus" 1958, p. 12)  &  detection devices are exhaustively varied and still no way can be found to make the systems pass with probability one. Perhaps I may add that my main attackers here routinely ridicule me for talking of ovens and sorting apparatus.Chjoaygame (talk) 08:42, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

Ah, really? Still not so problematic. Having sources for several pure states, it is trivial to combine them (via a classical randomizer) into a source of the corresponding mixed state. Boris Tsirelson (talk) 08:54, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

I wrote 'arbitrary'. Your example demands restriction to the case where one has sources for several pure states, indeed mixed, but far from arbitrary.Chjoaygame (talk) 09:00, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

It is arbitrary as long as these pure states are. The problem of preparing arbitrary pure state is a separate problem (and in some sense, not solvable, but usually assumed to be solvable in elementary textbooks). Boris Tsirelson (talk) 11:54, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

I wrote (as corrected by Editor Tsirel): It would be hard in practice to prepare a beam that was in exactly some arbitrary fully specified mixed state. As he points out, it may be hard in practice to prepare an arbitrary pure state, a point I hsve made in the past. I don't agree that this is a separate problem. I had it in mind when I made my statement. And it would be a restriction that one should deal with several pure states, not a continuum, or more tricky set, of pure states.Chjoaygame (talk) 12:05, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

OK, if you don't agree that this is a separate problem, then let it be so. But "not a continuum, or more tricky set, of pure states" shows clearly, what happens when one thinks physically instead of (rather than in addition to) thinking mathematically (and Feynman wrote about this in "Character of physical law"). Every mixed state (no matter how "tricky") can be decomposed into a (finite or) countable mix of pure states (and approximately - finite, of course). And admits a continuum of non-equivalent such decompositions. (Non-unique decomposition is a well-known fact actively debated in the past). Boris Tsirelson (talk) 12:17, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

I am glad to see your thoughts on this point. I was in doubt on the matter. I hardly need say that I defer to your mathematics. I wrote It would be hard in practice to prepare... I am not sure, but I think it would be hard in practice to prepare a countably infinite set of pure states ready to be mixed. Whether the word 'several' covers a countably infinite set is a question that one might ask.Chjoaygame (talk) 02:53, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

• Comment. Each and any valuable treatise on Quantum Mechanic Theory is consistent with itself, since this is a requirement for being valuable. But QMT has largely evolved from its beginning, and is already evolving. So that any patchwork, made from pieces of various treatises, by various authors and at various periods, shouldn't be expected of being self-consistent. An eigenfunction |w> for variable W related to object X has the meaning "suppose that you interact sufficiently with X, to the point of finding w as the measure of variable W, then X will be described by |w>. Before the measure, object X has to be represented by a linear combination of eigenfunctions, the coefficients being related (at least loosely) with the probability of obtaining w as the measure of W. If you are considering two properties, you can, before any measure, represent the same physical object by two linear combinations of eigenfunctions (relative to W1 and W2). But after any measure, other linear combinations have to be used. Moreover, when the two measuring processes don't commute, measuring more and more precisely W1 results in scrambling more and more W2, to the point of obtaining an linear combination that only expresses our total ignorance about w2.
  Another way to tell the same thing. An abstract function describes an object with associated knowledge. When dealing with a physical object, the main question is: what have we paid for this knowledge, i.e. how much we have modified this object in order to acquire this knowledge ? Remark on the present dispute: the Founding Fathers of QMT are known for having be rogue to each other. But being rogue doesn't suffice for becoming a Founding Father. Pldx1 (talk) 07:53, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

I like the third phrase and the last phrase of Pldx1 (but his other phrases seem not to belong here):

"Аny patchwork, made from pieces of various treatises, by various authors and at various periods, shouldn't be expected of being self-consistent."

"But being rogue doesn't suffice for becoming a Founding Father."

Anyway, I'd say that both YohanN7 and Chjoaygame are not experts, but Chjoaygame is a passionate and ambitious POV pusher, while YohanN7 is not. Boris Tsirelson (talk) 08:11, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

Editor Tsirel says that I am a passionate and ambitious POV pusher. Yes, I am pushing the point of view that Misplaced Pages articles should be written primarily in ordinary language, and for physics that means relating mathematical formulas to physical meaning. My principal interlocutor, I think, is passionate in the opposite direction. He writes for example "Modern ways of presenting physics are better than those of the 1930:s. Mathematics has become the irreversibly final tool and language in expressing physics. You may not like it, but you can't turn the flow of time around." I have to leave it to others to decide if that constitutes Wiki POV.Chjoaygame (talk) 08:56, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

My opinion to it is already voiced above: About the balance between ordinary-language and math-language in physics, I do not vote, since I am a mathematician, not a physicist. But I am pleased to see (above) the opinion of several physicists. I have absolutely no objection to the use of ordinary language in articles — as long as the ordinary language underlies the conclusions reached by more formal approach, and not undermines them! And similarly: no objection to some history of (say) quantum mechanics, as long as this history underlies, not undermines, the current worldview. Boris Tsirelson (talk) 09:01, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

Relating mathematical formulas to physical meaning is very different from replacing mathematical formulas with (unique) POV babbling. I am in favor of the former, not even neutral. I am against the latter. YohanN7 (talk) 10:58, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

I don't recall replacing any mathematical formulas. You are of course free to say I babble and have a (unique) POV.Chjoaygame (talk) 15:15, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

Agree with Boris: Plain-language information is a valuable part of physics articles. But plain-language misinformation is not! I personally don't know yet whether Chjoaygame is pushing a coherent POV or is merely confused about many basic aspects of quantum mechanics. But anyway, Chjoaygame is not correct when he suggests that his POV is a desire for plain-language descriptions and that this is what people are complaining about. --Steve (talk) 12:13, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

A lot there. I am obviously not expert in quantum mechanics. I was seriously confused for some long time about the relation between state vectors and wave functions. This was a big confusion on a basic aspect, with troublesome ramifications in the way of walls of text on talk pages. I eventually recognized how to see it correctly, and apologized for my confusion. I don't think I have other basic confusions of remotely the same size. People are complaining about my personality: that I write walls of text on talk pages, that I often use out-of-date sources (e.g. Dirac, Schrödinger, Heisenberg, Bohr), that I don't give up on talk pages until I have been persuaded that I ought do so, that I am not primarily interested in mathematics, and that I post edits boldly. I can see that these personality features do not endear me to people; they add up to the broad reason for the present proposal to topic-ban me. I think I am entitled to have a pretty large say in defining my own POV. At least in my mind it is as I stated just above: I am pushing the point of view that Misplaced Pages articles should be written primarily in ordinary language, and for physics that means relating mathematical formulas to physical meaning. To elaborate a little, I believe strongly that if one can't give a good account of a topic in ordinary language, then one doesn't understand it well. I think Misplaced Pages articles on quantum mechanics are defective in that respect. Here is not the place for me to say more about that. I have posted many attempts to help remedy that defect. Many of those have been duly undone, with more or less protest from me. I don't edit war.

On another tack, I do not believe in magic, and therefore I avoid editing on Bell's theorem. That I do not believe in magic makes some editors feel I am nuts, but, as I said, after one essay, made within the rules and not objectionably, I know how passionately they think my non-belief is mistaken and consequently I don't edit or talk on Bell's theorem. So I think my unbelief is not a valid reason to do hard things to me.Chjoaygame (talk) 15:15, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

And by the way, it is a well-accepted position, that generally, a theoretical notion need not admit a definition in empirical terms. When possible (and not too boring), such a definition is desirable. But it may be impossible. Theory as whole is corroborated (or refuted) according to its predictions (and empirical facts). But "building blocks" are not necessarily interpretable empirically. We observe that Chjoaygame tries hard to give empirical interpretation to every theoretical notion, even when it is not reasonable to do at all, or at least, is a too advanced matter for our articles.Boris Tsirelson (talk) 12:23, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

This comment is high powered, perhaps beyond the present purposes, or, as you say, "by the way". I ask that the formulas be related to physical meaning. That is not to say that every definition must have an empirical meaning. If one says 'this formula has no physical meaning' I count that as relating this formula to physical meaning. Physical meaning is not quite the same thing as empirical meaning. To deal more directly with your comment, Chjoaygame tries hard to interpret theoretical notions that he feels deserve empirical interpretations, but not every theoretical notion. Chjoaygame thinks that physicists vary in how hard and how successfully they pursue that. Sometimes some of them give up too easily. I won't go further on that here and now.Chjoaygame (talk) 15:15, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

I am not about replacing formulas (that is, statements) by plain text, nor about their translation into plain text. I am rather about mathematical objects (say, state vectors). The question, whether or not every vector in the Hilbert space is an eigenvector of some Hermitian operator, is mathematically trivial. The question, whether or not every vector in the Hilbert space is an eigenvector of some physically feasible observable is far not trivial. Neither the former, nor the latter, is usually discussed in elementary textbooks. And I do not think they should be discussed (prominently) in our articles. But if you define a pure state as corresponding (you know in which sense) to a possible value of an observable, then inevitably you enter such questions. This is why your trend (in spite of its good faith) may be (or even must be) harmful. Boris Tsirelson (talk) 16:04, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for these valuable thoughts. I think I would be unwise to pursue them here.Chjoaygame (talk) 16:35, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

@Chjoaygame: For the record, I also do not believe that people can do "magic", and when I learned of Bell's theorem circa 1992, my amazement that elementary particles are experimentally observed to display "Quantum pseudo-telepathy" prompted me to contact the local newspaper (after two sleepless nights pondering what I had just learned). The local newspaper ignored me. Like you, I also get "odd" ideas about how to explain physics, but after one or two rejections I drop the subject and post the material in an obscure location (example). If Misplaced Pages editors who happen to by physicists say a certain insight has no value, you need to believe them. I recall this statement that perhaps you made about Temperature and the one-dimensional manifold. It is marginally appropriate for Misplaced Pages, at best. But when I went to delete it, I checked the source and finally understood. Just below the freezing point, density decreases with increasing temperature. The fact that temperature is not a function of volume implies that an ad hoc definition of temperature cannot be based on a water thermometer in this range. This could be a useful insight in instructional material for students. You just need to recognize that there are places where such insights do not belong.--Guy vandegrift (talk) 17:29, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

Editor YohanN7 doesn't like people interleaving in his posts. He has just undone my interleaving above. So I copy from above to here in green his text in which he ridiculed me. Then I copy my indented interleaved reply.

On occasion, Chj starts vetting real scientists, like here (Link works poorly. Scroll up to label "A distinction drawn by Weinberg".).

Weinberg is at fault in logic here. He is conflating...

Wow. Just wow.

Editor YohanN7 is ridiculing me for making a valid point in an argument.

The link takes one to:

Weinberg writes on page xvi:

"The viewpoint of this book is that physical states are represented by vectors in Hilbert space, with the wave functions of Schrödinger just the scalar products of these states with the basis states of definite position."

Weinberg is at fault in logic here.

Weinberg's own logic would have seen him write:

The viewpoint of this book is that physical states are represented by vectors in Hilbert space, with the wave functions of Schrödinger just the scalar products of these vectors with the basis vectors of definite position.

The point is material in a discussion of the distinction between (a) a vector that represents a physical state, and (b) the physical state itself.Chjoaygame (talk) 06:41, 9 April 2016 (UTC)Chjoaygame (talk) 12:13, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

Enforcing

Could we please stop this and enforce the topic ban before Chjoaygame contaminates the whole page with their, hmm, non-orthodox views on physics?--Ymblanter (talk) 06:47, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

Strongly agree with Ymblanter. If there are any admins (or whoever makes ban decisions) reading this, please hurry up and be done with it. Everyone should stop fueling the fire (here and elsewhere) by ceasing to respond to Chjoaygame. M∧ŜcħεИ_τlk 12:44, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

Final tally of opinions -- My apologies for getting this off track. As atonement, this list might make it easier for an administrator to sort things out. Feel free to replace my comment (e.g. I think (s)he supports the topic ban) by your own position and signature. But please, if you have even a very brief comment, place a link to it on your talk page, not here!--Guy vandegrift (talk) 15:04, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

1. M∧ŜcħεИ_τlk|NOT A SIGNATURE! I think (s)he supports the topic ban.
2. Xxanthippe NOT A SIGNATURE! (talk) ]] supports the topic ban. Xxanthippe (talk) 22:22, 9 April 2016 (UTC).
3. Ymblanter NOT A SIGNATURE! (talk) ]] I think (s)he supports the topic ban.
4. Boris Tsirelson NOT A SIGNATURE! (talk) ]] I think (s)he supports the topic ban.
5. KGirlTrucker87 NOT A SIGNATURE! (talk) ]] I think (s)he supports the topic ban.
6. Guy vandegrift -- Support topic ban. Signed by --Guy vandegrift (talk) 15:04, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
7. Steve NOT A SIGNATURE! (talk) ]] I think (s)he supports the topic ban.
8. YohanN7 NOT A SIGNATURE! (]) ]] I think (s)he supports the topic ban.
9. Pldx1 is a passerby, and is not convinced by any side. Abstain. Pldx1 (talk) 16:48, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

We need your help!

·Hey bored admins, got nothing better to do with your time? Well come on down to RFPP and help clean out some requests! We've got 55 requests just sitting there, waiting to be handled deftly by your keen insight and judgement, you also look great today! Don't wait, start protecting (and declining) today! tutterMouse (talk) 17:54, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

I did a few and then some. Widr (talk) 18:27, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

Mostly  Done.--Ymblanter (talk) 19:23, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

IP-socks with talkpage access

Someone mind removing the talkpage access of these blocked User:Nolantron IP-socks?

• Special:Contributions/24.114.106.179
• Special:Contributions/24.114.93.163
• Special:Contributions/24.114.86.61

He also mentions the supposedly-extended rangeblock wasn't actually extended. Someone may want to deal with that, too. User has also been harassing User:Kailey 2001 at least yesterday. (On one of his named accounts, he claims he was just pretending to be the harasser active on Kailey's user talkpage before. No clue if he's honest or lying, don't care either.) AddWittyNameHere (talk) 20:58, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

Range 24.114.64.0/18 (up to 16384 users would be blocked). Not sure if that is feasible. Fences&Windows 22:18, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

Organized editing effort

Organized editing effort from 4chan's /pol/. Found boards.4 *** chan.org/pol/thread/69811494/1st-pol-wikipedia-editathon (view at your own risk; link blacklisted). FYI. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 21:40, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

Psst, Nick-D... regarding David Irving. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 22:49, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

Thanks, the edits to the Irving article had that look to it. Nick-D (talk) 23:08, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

69814951 suggested: Edit /pol/ out of the "Alt Right" page, or at least make it less biased. I'm sure it's just a coincidence. Maybe /pol/ is capable of subtlety. clpo13_(talk) 23:21, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

@Clpo13: Surprisingly (?) the editor who removed it made a good point: the sources don't support its inclusion. There's at least one seasoned wiki editor in that thread on 4chan. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 23:29, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

List of Iranian people by net worth and Setad

Hi,

Same problem has occurred again (and again for past 2 years) as reported more recently. Can someone please take action and/or protect this page indefinitely, as I don't want to turn it personal (no "agenda" whatsoever on my side). Thanks. Similar problem for theSetad article with an editor who is making WP:unfounded personal attacks (possibly a sock-puppet of blocked user: Sheildy?). I have edited economy-related article on WP for more than 10 years without a hitch but those 2 seem problematic because it is a list of persons may be?

Thanks much,

Duvalier123 (talk) 15:26, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

Vandalism

Hi. Please block this account because of doing VandalismModern Sciences (talk) 23:47, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

This is not vandalism, this is severe POV pushing--Ymblanter (talk) 06:33, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

User:Savintomar repeatedly recreating CSDed article

@Wgolf:: The discussion has been moved here froom WP:ANI.

User:Savintomar has been repeatedly recreating Savintomar as a page about himself (which in its present form is U5, A7, ... CSD), even after it has been speedy'd many times. He has also been repeatedly uploading a photo of himself to Commons and Misplaced Pages, which does not give any indication of permission or release on a free licence.

Also the user appears to have a sock: User:Savin.tomer, and has also been removing speedy templates from the articles created by the master. Optakeover 05:20, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

Pinging MER-C. Optakeover 08:34, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

I've blocked User:Savin.tomer, as it's quite clear they're the same person. I'm not completely convinced this is Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Iamsachintomar -- is this user so desperate to get onto Misplaced Pages that he'll misspell his own name in order to do so? I salted all variants of Sachin Tomar via MediaWiki:Titleblacklist not too long ago. MER-C 08:40, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

Regardless of Iamsachintomar, if a user repeatedly creates a speedy deleted page, and even creates a sockpuppet to continue the work, this should be grounds for blocking. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 11:21, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for your inputs. The main reason why I'm raising this up for admin review, is if the user is unable to interpret and understand Misplaced Pages policy on article creation, copyright and multiple accounts, I believe he should be sanctioned. Optakeover 17:41, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

@MER-C: @Od Mishehu: Please refer to , the personal page of the user (MER-C, remember the photo I tagged and you deleted?). This page may help you to identify who are his socks or not. (I am not outing, reason is because the user had already revealed his homepage in his contribs and also used his own photo, which came out on a Google image search) Optakeover 18:05, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

I've protected the page to prevent future article creation. Liz 22:12, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

Od Mishehu: fair enough. I've indeffed the other account for not being here to improve Misplaced Pages. I've also amended the deletion summaries to U5/G12, as it's not particularly clear Savintomar == Sachin Timar. MER-C 04:25, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

Help required at AfD

There is a discussion here which an editor has moved the main article to its userpage, can I ask for assistance from an administrator re what to do next? Thanks Nordic Dragon 14:29, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

I have performed some cleanup and commented there — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 14:43, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

User created a WP:FAKEARTICLE so Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/User:Vanossaro1567 Legacypac (talk) 18:27, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

Sysmessage change request

Hi guys! If everything works as planned the new protection level is comming in about 1-2 hours. so you need to adjust the text of two messages:

• MediaWiki:Protectedpagewarning
• MediaWiki:Protectedpagetext

You need to use a switch to display the right things, if the new level is used. But I guess you got already experience in that, because you got the templateditor level. Otherwise you may take a look at the french pages with the new names, they got their new level yesterday. Greetings, Luke081515 22:05, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

See also this discussion at the technical village pump. Mz7 (talk) 02:24, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

IBan enforcement request by Dennis Bratland

@Nyttend: seems to have become inactive administering the interaction ban between me and three others. I've had no response to several emails, and the interaction ban seems to have fallen by the wayside. I don't know what's going on, but perhaps the easiest fix would be for another admin to take over supervision of the interaction ban? I hate to have to post this considering the replies it will attract, but I've gotten nowhere with email. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 04:19, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

It's because, frankly, I'm tired of dealing with everyone's petty arguing. I can handle it if you want me to enforce the ban literally. Nyttend (talk) 11:24, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

Petty arguing is the reason these bans happen. It seems like anyone who has no desire to be involved in these kinds of disputes should let someone else administer interaction bans. And anyway it's not fair to you to have to do this indefinitely. Why not let someone else take a turn? --Dennis Bratland (talk) 13:35, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

• Spacecowboy420 went to Anthony Appleyard's talk page and requested that he revert my edits on Dodge Tomahawk. He said he didn't know who made the change, yet he also said he couldn't talk about it because of the interaction ban, indicating he had checked the page history and seen that of course it was me, and he is banned from reverting my edits. I see this as a blatant violation of the interaction ban. Spacecowboy420 is not supposed to follow me around and revert my changes, nor is he supposed to slyly talk around whose edits he is having reverted. This is after several previous violations, such as Spacecowboy420 reverting our previously discussed criteria for List of fastest production motorcycles, removing the street legal requirement. I don't understand how he can do that if he knows that he and I previously couldn't agree on it. He's taking advantage of the ban to make changes and I can't respond. Yet if I overrule his old objections on Dodge Tomahawk, then he is allowed to come along and revert me? How is that possible?

  72bikers did the same thing when he deleted my source Legendary Motorcycles on List of fastest production motorcycles, even though he knows I told him I added the source and checked it myself. He says "I haven't seen this source" and deletes it, knowing I can't do anything about it.

  I don't think Nyttend is willing to take action to enforce the interaction ban, because he simply finds it unpleasant to deal with. He also doesn't check his email, for some reason. I think he should have told everyone before he became the ban admin that he never checks his email, and someone who does could have been chosen instead.

  So what's next? Can we please have a new admin for this interaction ban? Is my only other option to go to Arbcom? --Dennis Bratland (talk) 19:52, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

Extended confirmed user

I have just noticed that a permission for users called "Extended confirmed user" and a request board called Misplaced Pages:Requests for permissions/Extended confirmed has appeared. THis started around 23:24 on 5 April. The noticeboard suggests that only alternate accounts of those who have automatically received the permission should be granted this permission. Is there a clear statment of this policy or process? Graeme Bartlett (talk) 12:13, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

This from 19 March- WP:ARBPIA3#500/30. Also this. _Fortuna 12:21, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

Would this also apply to Gamergate controversy? Maybe the edit filter there is sufficient. I just noticed that an editor's status on their user page (which is seen if you have particular scripts) says they are "extendedconfirmed" (no space) instead of "confirmed". Liz 14:06, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

I think GG was its original intended use, in fact. _Fortuna 15:02, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

If there is no process or consensus for adding this right manually, this page should be deleted. Steel1943 (talk) 14:14, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

My understanding was that the right would only be manually added for alternate accounts. ~ Rob 14:58, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

So, just to be clear, admins can apply to this level of protection, either through requests at WP:RPP or they become aware of the need for protection on eligible articles/pages in the WP:ARBPIA area? Does this also apply to caste-related articles? We should also alert admins who regularly check the RPP noticeboard and I've requested that this level of protection be added to Twinkle. Liz 15:52, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

See Misplaced Pages:Protection policy#Arbitration 30/500 protection. This level needs Arbcom authority, as described in WP:AC/DS. If you see a need for 500/30 protection on an article that doesn't yet have it, I suggest requesting it at WP:Arbitration enforcement. The article needs to fall in the scope of some Arbcom case. Unclear if adding this protection level to Twinkle is a good idea, or if allowing requests for it at RFPP is wise. RFPP doesn't hand out 1RR restrictions, for example. EdJohnston (talk) 16:12, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

This may be of use in seeing how the rollout was discussed and any links that may help Misplaced Pages:Village pump (technical)#Strange burst of activity at special@Log/rights. Irondome (talk) 16:32, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

ArbCom authority includes WP:ARBPIA3#500/30. Administrators may unilaterally apply extended protection to articles in the Palestine-Israel conflict topic. RFPP is as good a place to ask for it as any. BethNaught (talk) 16:27, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

(another ec!)

What about this AE decision where you state that A 500/30 restriction is authorized for use with caste articles under certain restrictions. You tied this new restriction to Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/India-Pakistan#Standard discretionary sanctions and specified the articles 500/30 applied to at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions/Log/2015#India-Pakistan. But, you're right, ArbCom never passed a motion to authorize 500/30 for the India-Pakistan area (or Gamergate) as they did for Palestinian-Israel conflict pages. Hence, my confusion on whether these caste articles could be covered by this new level of protection. Liz 16:31, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

I thought the 500/30 sanction was a result of an AE request for gamergate originally? When did it 'require' arbcom authority? Only in death does duty end (talk) 16:33, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

It should probably be clarified by ArbCom whether 500/30 is an appropriate discretionary sanction. I could see that going either way. ~ Rob 16:36, 6 April 2016 UTC)

The new protection level is for authorized topics only, as listed at WP:30/500. New pages will be created that will clearly relate to these topics, so users need a way to request this new form of protection (see also WT:RFPP#New options). It is up to the admin to determine if the page qualifies, and if they are unsure, they can defer or ask here at AN. I plan to add support for the level of protection to Twinkle, but it will abundantly clear this is for Arbitration purposes only, and will list out the qualified topics. The text that is posted to RFPP will also clearly denote what that protection is for, so patrolling admins should not be confused.The WP:PERM/EC page is more or less purely to assign the right to alternate accounts. We put it there to centralize with other permissions requests — MusikAnimal 16:43, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

I hope the list of articles is going to be kept somewhere else than Misplaced Pages:Protection policy. Mlpearc (open channel) 16:58, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

That is the list of topics. The list of articles can be found at Category:Misplaced Pages pages under 30-500 editing restriction — MusikAnimal 17:03, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

Note: Those topic links are articles, just saying :P. Mlpearc (open channel) 18:13, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

This might be a useful tool to cut down on some of the vandalism and occasional terrorist POV pushing on some ISIL related pages like Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi Legacypac (talk) 18:35, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

State of TfD

Lately, participation at TfD has been extremely low. I've been essentially the only editor closing discussions over the past several weeks. When I'm unable to close discussions (either due to involvement or because the close would be inappropriate for a non-admin), they've sat there for weeks, some for months. When I do close discussions, they often have little input, and I doubt that many of these discussions actually represent a global consensus. Not to mention the backlog at the holding cell, where discussions with consensus as old as 2013 sit waiting to be enacted.

In short, TfD badly needs more participation in all respects. Non-administrators can help by simply contributing to discussions or by closing discussions, including those with non-contentious and obvious deletion outcomes, as per a past RfC. Administrators are especially needed to close old discussions that non-administrators are unable to. If you're unfamiliar with closing TfD discussions, you can find instructions at WP:TFD/AI, or I'm happy to be of assistance.

This is not just a request for closure. While the backlog is an issue, I'm most concerned that decisions on templates with thousands of transclusions are often being made by less than five editors. That's extremely unhealthy for the project. Non-administrators can be just as helpful as administrators in fixing that. ~ Rob 12:50, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

• I've started going through and closing some of the more unambiguous discussions, but I lack the time and experience to do much more than help occasionally. --Gimubrc (talk) 17:43, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
• +++++ Agree with Rob, more participation and more admins needed! I used to do a lot of TfD closes but haven't had the time lately, and there's a growing backlog of discussions that need an admin or at least an uninvolved editor. Opabinia regalis (talk) 05:26, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
  • Is there perhaps a handy-dandy TfD closing script we can employ?--v/r - TP 05:47, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
    • TParis, I have User:Doug/closetfd.js, which I don't use, but I loaded it when I loaded the MfD closer, which is not as automated as the AfD closer, however.--kelapstick 06:10, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
    • @TParis: There is User:Doug/closetfd.js, but it just adds the closing templates and doesn't actually do the deletions or untag templates being kept. I usually go through one day's log and then use Twinkle's D-batch, which is handy when there are group nominations or many subpages and redirects. Someone was working on a more comprehensive script awhile back but I think got distracted by other things (just in case anyone reading is looking for a project, hint hint.... ;) I had vague intentions of writing one myself but my dislike of tedious repetitive tasks never quite overcame my dislike of all things javascript. Opabinia regalis (talk) 06:06, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

I've used the script before, but personally, I think just opening up WP:TFD/AI in another tab and following the instructions is easier. That's what I do, and it's quite productive. Personal preference, of course, so your mileage may vary. Again, I just want to underscore that I'm happy to answer questions! For those who close discussions, please note the following few pieces of advice, which differ from other deletion processes:

• Please do not delete templates which still have remaining transclusions! You can check for this by clicking "What links here" and then "Transclusion count". If the transclusions aren't zero (this includes anything in the userspace, etc.), then you can either remove/replace the transclusions as necessary or list the template at WP:TFD/H so another editor can do so. The template should remain until all transclusions are removed and then listed as G6.
• If you close a discussion as "merge", please list it at WP:TFD/H unless you're very confident you can handle the technical aspects of the merge. If you do decide to carry out a simple merge yourself (such as merging navboxes, which is fairly easy), I recommend using the sandbox to test your edits.
• If using the TfD script (or closing discussions without it, for that matter), be sure to remove the TfD template from the templates being considered if you close as "keep". The script doesn't do this for you, and it's a common mistake to assume that it does. You should also place {{Old TfD}} on the talk page of the template.

~ Rob 14:58, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

Heads up: No editing for 30 minutes in about two weeks

This is a quick note to make sure people here have heard about the new dates for the m:Tech/Server switch 2016. The net result is that there will be no editing at any WMF wiki for 15 to 30 minutes, on both Tuesday, 19 April and Thursday 21 April, started at 14:00 UTC (10:00 a.m. EDT). Also, there will be a few things that may be slower to update than usual (e.g., red links persisting for a few minutes after you've created the article); these should resolve whenever the servers catch up.

I've requested a watchlist note at MediaWiki talk:Watchlist-details here (an admin will need to make that happen, but there's no rush right now), and suggested it to several other larger communities. There will also be MassMessages to the usual Village Pumps for about 600 wikis, and a CentralNotice (sitenotice banner) shortly beforehand. The project was described at Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2016-03-09/Technology report.

I request that you share this news with other sister projects, projects in other languages, and editors that you interact with regularly. If you have questions or suggestions for more ways to reach people, then please {{ping}} me. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 17:27, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

Is this going to be a vandalism problem? It might be wise to not give too exact of times. Adam Cuerden 17:38, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

I heavily agree with this. It would be ideal for you to give a window of an hour or so and start it at some random time within that window. ~ Rob 18:14, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

I wouldn't expect the time to be exact (it's triggered by humans, not by a script), but they ran a test of this a couple of weeks ago, and there were no reports about vandalism then. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 18:30, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

You didn't set up mass warnings about the exact time it was going to occur two weeks ago, though. I don't want to WP:BEANS this (and hopefully am not) but if it's going to be widely advertised, with a near-exact startup time, it really opens us up to danger. Adam Cuerden 19:32, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

Yes, but, easily solved; Whatamidoing, please make sure the humans pressing the button take a coffee break of random length between completing their final checks and halting editing. MPS1992 (talk) 20:42, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

notification

Please give notification to user for this comment which is a clear personl attcakWorld Cup 2010 (talk) 21:43, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

World Cup 2010, the link provided pertaining the Announcement of Establishment of Iranian Biofuel Society (IBS) in the Official Newspaper of Iran was a very valid reference."آگهی تاسیس: وبگاه روزنامه رسمی جمهوری اسلامی ایران".. This could be also verified by any Farsi speaking Misplaced Pages Editors. کاربر:تهراني ها,(User page on Farsi Misplaced Pages), who originally created this page on Farsi Misplaced Pages "روزنامه رسمی جمهوری اسلامی ایران". could be contacted to verify the authenticity of this claim (and the above-mentioned Link). You were also informed of similar pages on English Misplaced Pages about Iranian Academic Societies under the Ministry of Science, Research, and Technology (Iran), i.e., Linguistics Society of Iran. User: Hamid Hassani who has made more than 14,000 contributions to English Misplaced Pages and has also edited this page once could be contacted to verify this. It is unfortunate that although your profile at World Cup 2010, indicates that you know Farsi near Native level and therefore, you could have easily investigated the references provided and could have tried to improve the page on the Misplaced Pages accordingly, instead you ignored the explanations and references provided on the Talk page and posted a note implying that "None of the References introduced by this user is valid". Given the fact mentioned about your profile, i.e., level of proficiency in Farsi, this might have misled the other Editors who are not Farsi speakers. Anyway, please bear in mind that we all strive to improve English Misplaced Pages and that nothing is personal here. Misplaced Pages Editors regardless of their years of presence and number of contributions are advised to try to verify the references provided very carefully before trying to nominate pages for speedy deletion. They are also advised to try to talk to each other on the Talk page of articles with an aim to strengthen the editorial community. Meisam tab (talk) 15:21, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

Article needs deleting and salting

Can someone delete and salt this article ? I linked a prior deletion discussion to the request template and you'll see it has repeatedly been recreated under various names by a determines sockmaster over the years. A couple other variations of the name are already salted. GigglesnortHotel (talk)£ —Preceding undated comment added 02:25, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

Already deleted, I have added the salt. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 02:45, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

How has the English Misplaced Pages usually dealt with G7 annihilation requests?

Could someone please point me to a policy or discussion on cases where a single user wants to retire and asks the administrators to delete all the articles that they have ever created (using the speedy deletion criterion G7)? We are discussing this on the Finnish Misplaced Pages, and I'm sure you guys have received several requests of this kind and have an established policy how to deal with such requests. --Pxos (talk) 16:00, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

@Pxos: No such thing, Users DO NOT own articles they create. See Misplaced Pages:Ownership of content and Misplaced Pages:Copyrights#Contributors' rights and obligations Mlpearc (open channel) 16:03, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

G7 only applies in cases where the requesting editor is the only party to make substantive edits to the page, and even then, can be denied because editors don't WP:OWN the pages. In your example, I presume many of the retiring editor's started pages were subsequently edited by other users. I would also question the good faith nature of such a request, since pretty much the only logical reason to request that everything be deleted is that you are going off in a huff. So if I was met with such a request here, my response would be "that ain't gonna happen, bub". Resolute 16:06, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

There's some (very, very old) discussion at Misplaced Pages talk:Proposal to expand WP:CSD/Proposal VI (Requested deletion). —Cryptic 16:14, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

English Misplaced Pages would handle that by saying "Thank you for your contributions, we'll cherish them. Caio."--v/r - TP 20:27, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

YSupport Renaming our 'delete' to 'annihilate' . — xaosflux 23:32, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

I wonder if that would get more people to run for RfAs! ansh666 06:13, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

In case anyone wonders, deleting an article in Finnish Misplaced Pages is simply called "removing" since the Finnish language does not actually have an exact word for "deletion". As the angry user has already requested that "an eternal block" be imposed upon him and that every single article, where he is the sole contributor, be removed from Misplaced Pages, I thought the word "annihilate" would be suitable for the occasion. --Pxos (talk) 23:00, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

G7 is often used when people realise a problem, and want to avoid embarrassment of some other deletion reason. But in the case of an angry user trying to raze everything they did, the material would likely be kept, and so the G7 should be declined if there was any value in the articles. For user pages you can accept the delete nomination though. If some articles do get deleted, by different admins not aware of the situation, then it should be OK to restore them again. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 23:44, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

It should be noted that CSD doesn't promise that any page written all by a single user will be deleted under request of that user; it only says that an admin may do so. While an admin will generally decline a request which technically meets these requirements if (s)he has a good reason, a user trying to erase all of his/her edits would probably be such a reason. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 20:52, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

A recent AN/I close

Requesting review of the closure of Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Godsy Disruption & GAMING the System (which has since been archived here) per Misplaced Pages:Closing discussions#Challenging other closures. Limiting my comment to that neutral statement at this time, though I'll answer questions if pinged.—Godsy_CONT) 08:40, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

• Endorse close @Godsy: Why are you challenging the close of an ANI discussion that was started on 28 March 2016 and where none of your proposals have got anywhere near consensus? The ANI discussion has established that some people support (almost) all material being retained in user space and some don't—there is no prospect of more than that being achieved at ANI. Johnuniq (talk) 09:29, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
• Endorse close I am pretty sure that the community has made progress since then in that they have started an RFC on the topic. I see very little value in revisiting an old drama thread. You have not even presented a basis for reviewing it, which part don't you like? HighInBC 14:07, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
• Endorse close The first question you need to ask is 'Would another party have closed it with a different result?'. It is highly unlikely anyone would in this case. Only in death does duty end (talk) 14:33, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
• @Johnuniq and HighInBC:"Godsy is just going to keep opening alternate proposals until they exhaust the community's patience (learn to drop the stick)" is the part I took issue with. If the close had simply stated that there was no consensus, and linked the relevant RfC, it would have been reasonable (and would have pushed IAR far enough). My issue was with an involved administrator who directly disagreed with me in the last subsection and was involved in the actual page move matter to an extent leaving commentary regarding me in the close. If it had been a neutral third party making those statements, while it would have still been inaccurate, I could have dealt with it (perhaps some self reflection would have been due). I didn't bring this to AN/I. I did open a couple subsections and provided evidence that the user who did start the thread regarding my actions engaged in canvassing and personal attacks, and I opened one alternative proposal for sanctions against said user as the thread completely boomeranged against them (my actions are barely discussed by anyone except the one who opened the thread). I had no intention of suggesting any more proposals (The closer didn't even say it seems that I would keep doing that, they stated what I would do). I understand the whole thing is convoluted, but; It doesn't seems like the closer properly read all the sections, or else they couldn't set aside their own bias. The close shouldn't stand. The closer is free to express their opinion about me, but given the circumstances, in the text of the close is not the place. If the part I quote above of the close is stricken, I'll withdraw my objection.—Godsy_CONT) 19:19, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
  • Step 1 in dispute resolution is discussing the dispute with the person you're in a dispute with. Give it a rest. No one is interested in dragging this issue out any longer. Drop the stick.--v/r - TP 19:32, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
    • @TParis: IAR close, why not an IAR (to a much lesser extent) review?—Godsy_CONT) 19:36, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
      • You know what, you do whatever you feel is necessary. I'm not even interested. You have a serious problem with letting things go and I'm not even going to engage you on this any longer.--v/r - TP 19:42, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
• Endorse close - Whoever closes it the outcome's gonna be the same and as noted above your proposals haven't got anywhere, I would strongly suggest you drop what ever stick you have with LP and just move on. –Davey2010 19:43, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
• Endorse close. Seems like a pretty accurate assessment of consensus and a pragmatic close of a discussion that wasn't going to achieve anything more. I can't see anyone else closing it significantly differently. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 21:51, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
• Overturn close. I am completely uninvolved, was unaware of all of this, generally don't participate here, and am not even sure if, as a non-admin, I can "vote" here (if not, mark this as a Comment instead). But I read all of the now-archived Godsy Disruption thread and I do think Godsy is right: the personally-directed language in the close was wrong, and it was especially wrong that an involved editor closed it that way (note maybe only involved editors would speak that way). Godsy was bashed by automatic edit summary in every edit to the entire meanly-named discussion. And it is mean and inappropriate to bash them in all other ways during the proceeding. To me the underlying actions of Legacy-whoever seem bad, it seems to me that Godsy was right about that being gaming that should not be allowed. It's not clear to me that the underlying actions by Godsy's to return pages to userspace were "wrong", as I am not sure if realistically those could have been proposed and addressed as a batch anywhere. All the actions that are manufacturing work by others--such as creating fake AFDs where real editors are to waste time judging quality of drafts that no one really supports--seem awful. About the proceeding, by my reading, Godsy made one proposal that was a stretch, the last one which proposed sanctions, and they were taken to task for doing that as a highly involved party. Okay fine they got some grief there. It is hypocritical to dictate that only uninvolved editors should propose anything serious of one type, then as an involved editor perform something else serious in a mean way (closing the discussion with a mean, unjustified personally-addressed statement). And, to all of you, why deny giving some respect to Godsy, who seems multiple times victimized in this, by not acknowledging the closing's wording was mean and unnecessary. Neither Godsy nor I are seeking continued discussion there, what's sought is just a revised close by someone else. Now that it has been archived some might assert nothing can be done, but obviously here one could get semi-agreement on an alternate close wording and then go and edit the archived thread (with link to this discussion). I hope this is helpful. --doncram 22:34, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

• You're entitled to that opinion, but in mine, Godsy instigated at every turn. And yes, editors get a !vote here. In fact, editors can close issues here as well. If you want to reclose that topic from your perspective, be my guest. My point is, nothing is going to happen, let's move on.--v/r - TP 22:49, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

@Doncram: Re "...am not even sure if, as a non-admin, I can "vote" here". Yep, it's community consensus that counts, and we're all supposed to be equal in that. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 07:41, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

Reedley International School

Reedley International School reads like an advertisment. Just letting you admins know about this. --86.177.178.49 (talk) 19:48, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

It sure does, even though some of the worst fluff was removed in 2011. It's too old for me to feel comfortable speedying it, but I've prodded. Domo arrigato, Mr IP. Bishonen | talk 20:00, 8 April 2016 (UTC).

This is the second IP on an administrator's noticeboard in a week not to get blocked. I think we might have a serious issue going on here. Anon's can't just come to an administrator's board without the overarching threat of blockage - that's unheard of!--v/r - TP 20:26, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

Said the guy who only comes around when the expiration date on his admin tools is approaching. Drmies (talk) 02:58, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

Hehe, was it that obvious?--v/r - TP 06:49, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

Banned editor continues to WP:EVADE

Notice: Banned editor continues to evade with pointless posts at WP:ANI, Misplaced Pages:Reference desk/Humanities & Misplaced Pages:Reference desk/Language. I'm sorta tired of dealing with this individual these last few weeks. So good luck. GoodDay (talk) 00:51, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

RfA Nom Reviews

About a year ago I put out a message offering to review potential candidates for an RfA nom. I had about a dozen responses and I provided a detailed and thoroughly researched response to each and every one. I'm once again offering to conduct a review for anyone interested. Feel free to email me using the link to the left of my user page.--v/r - TP 06:49, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

In the meanwhile, we also got this page: Misplaced Pages:Requests for adminship/Optional RfA candidate poll.--Ymblanter (talk) 08:03, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

OTRS seeking applicants

Hello! Have you ever thought about expanding the way you assist the Wikimedia movement? Did you know there are several off-wiki ways to do so? I am posting this information in efforts to get more people on our Volunteer response team. Currently, we're in the process of working on some heavy backlogs on info-en queues, as well as others. As an info-en volunteer, you will handle tickets from readers, editors, veteran users and others. Some emails are quick and easy - such as typos or simple minor corrections. Other emails are more difficult such as ones dealing with BLPs as we are frequently emailed by the subjects of our articles. If you are interested in learning more about the OTRS team, please see m:OTRS. On these pages you will find a lot of information. If you are interested, feel free to apply on Meta. If you have any questions, feel free to contact me or post here. Rjd0060 (talk) 14:05, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

Admin help needed

I was reviewing a draft Draft:Light gap, and noticed that an article, Light gap, already exists, and the draft is clearly meant as an improvement to the article- both have the same lead section for instance. Could we get an admin to history merge the 2? Joseph2302 (talk) 20:22, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

What seems to male the most sense here is to paste the new version (Draft:Light gap onto the article, referring to the author in the edit summary. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 20:46, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

 Done Merged the two. Really need to stop overthinking things. 20:53, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

Possible improper RfC close

I would like to draw attention to a recent RfC at Paul Singer. This was the eighth discussion on this particular subject and all have eneded with the same result. The previous discussions can be found here: .

After an involved editor closed the last RfC, there have been multiple allegations which I don't intend to interpret on here in order to leave this post as neutral as possible so that an uninvolved moderator (also not involved in this related discussion) can examine the situation and determine what course of action (if any) is needed and how to proceed with the article. Thank you. SegataSanshiro1 (talk) 21:34, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

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