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Revision as of 12:36, 19 May 2016 by 62.0.34.134 (talk) (→To editor "GregKaye" (above): new section)(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff)| This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the 1947–1948 civil war in Mandatory Palestine article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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Merge articles?
This whole subject is a bit confusing. Could someone merge a few articles to clear up the redundant mess?
These are obviously the exact same war. There's no sane reason to have redundant articles that only increse confusion. I realize that would result in a relatively long article, but as long as the information would be in chronological order, it would be a major improvement. GMRE (talk) 16:41, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
- This is not really confusing.
- The 1948 Palestine war covers both periods and both other articles are detailled articles.
- This is explained in the lead.
- Historians divide the war into two phases:
- The 1947–48 Civil War in Mandatory Palestine (sometimes called an "intercommunal war") in which the Jewish and Arab communities of Palestine, supported by the Arab Liberation Army, clashed, while the region was still fully under British rule.
- The 1948 Arab–Israeli War after 15 May 1948, marking the end of the British Mandate and the birth of Israel, in which Transjordan, Egypt, Syria and Iraq intervened and sent expeditionary forces that fought the Israeli army.
- Pluto2012 (talk) 16:51, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
- Yes it is confusing. How is it obvious that 1948 Palestine war covers the entire period when that entire period spans from 1947 to 1949, as the article itself admits? It also involved other players from outside Mandatory Palestine and there was fighting in other areas. There are now three articles on much the same topic. 62.0.34.134 (talk) 11:28, 19 May 2016 (UTC)JD
typo error?
adopted a resolution on 29 November 1949 should be: adopted a resolution on 29 November 1947
How do buses skirmish?
This seems problematic as a matter of english usage "Arab snipers skirmished Jewish buses". I'm not sure how buses skirmish. In fact, I think it's a physical impossibility. I would suggest replacing the word skirmished with attacked, fired upon, or assaulted as likely more accurate characterizations. I don't have access to the cited source and there seems to be no online link. TMLutas (talk) 01:52, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
Possible copyright problem
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Discussion relevant to this topic
It is proposed to rename Jewish insurgency in Palestine → Jewish insurgency in Mandatory Palestine.
Please discuss it on Jewish insurgency in Palestine talk page.GreyShark (dibra) 14:58, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
Requested move 29 September 2015
- The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the move request was: Not moved. There is a numerical majority against this move, and nobody has supplied references that contradict those of User:Pluto2012. We would need a scholarly consensus this was not a civil war. To conclude otherwise risks being WP:OR. A sentence like "I cannot see that the UN or others would have regarded the ensuing conflict as being a civil war.." cries out for sources to establish what UN members actually thought. EdJohnston (talk) 16:12, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
1947–48 Civil War in Mandatory Palestine → 1947–48 War in Mandatory Palestine – At the stage of history of the war the UK government had dropped any concept of a British Mandate for Palestine.
The new UN mandate was for there to be two states and this was not a civil war. The United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine had very clearly proscribed areas of land allocation which are indicated in the map shown. The partition plan clearly specified separate areas for both an Arab State and for a Jewish State with no support being given for a continuation of Mandatory Palestine. No faction within the war advocated a continuation in the existence of Mandatory Palestine and this was basically a territorial war with ethnic cleansing motivations being existent on both sides.
GregKaye 06:38, 29 September 2015 (UTC) --Relisted. DrKiernan (talk) 12:52, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
- opposed Hello GregKaye. You argue that the period from December '47 to May 1948 was not a civil war. I don't want to argue why it was but rather to refer to sources. Yoav Gelber, Benny Morris, Ephraim Karsh or Henry Laurens (scholar), all References on the topic and who published books on the 1948 Palestine war (see bibliography) use this precise terminology: "civil war". Pluto2012 (talk) 17:00, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
- Pluto2012 in searches in books:
- "1947–48 war" "Palestine" got "About 384 results" while
- "1947–48 civil war" "Palestine" got "About 65 results"
- Per sources I think that we should just call it a war and leave it to the reader to decide the context.
- The first three scholars that you mention all write from the Jewish perspective. The Henry Laurens citations do not provide links to his actual texts or direct quotations from his works. I would be interested in wider views on the subject. In what sense could this have been regarded as being a civil war? The intended and authorised divisions of areas were clear. GregKaye 07:25, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
- Hello GregKaye,
- Benny Morris is The Reference on a 1948 War. He is a New historian so not really pro-Israeli even if...
- Yoav Gelber is A Reference on the 1948 War. He considers himself as a tradionnal historian.
- Efraim Karsh is a controversed reference on the 1948 War because he is a defender of Israel.
- Henry Laurens is a French historian, a Reference on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and who has more empathy for Palestinians than for Israelis. He has published 5 books on the I/P conflict. Please check the title and content of the 1st chapter of the 3rd one.
- If you fear this could be a pro-Israeli view, Ilan Pappé whose most of work is not reliable due to his pro-Palestinian bias, writes "at the bottom of p.45 of one of his book that it was a civil war.
- The reasons why it was a civil war (or an intercommunal war) is that the country was under British authority and that citizens of this country fought against each other with the authorities failing to prevent this. The consensus is total among historians to refer to this period as a civil war. And they agree on nearly nothing ;-) Pluto2012 (talk) 17:21, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
- Your google research is not relevant. It doesn't take into account the existence of the 1948 Palestine War that covers both periods. Pluto2012 (talk) 17:23, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
- Hello GregKaye,
- Oppose It was a civil war as it took place within a single territory. Only after 14 May 1948 did it become a non-civil war. Number 57 08:47, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose Most (if not all) experts in the field call it a civil war. Not to mention that it was in fact a civil war by any reasonable duck test. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 13:06, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
- Number 57 Is your reference to 14 May 1948 in reference to the Israeli Declaration of Independence? On what reasoning do you say that the war was conducted on a single territory? The United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine was published on 29 November 1947 with text that "
... the majority of the Special Committee, ... Recommends to the United Kingdom, as the mandatory Power for Palestine, and to all other Members of the United Nations the adoption and implementation, with regard to the future Government of Palestine, of the Plan of Partition with Economic Union set out below;
" - The international recognition was given to borders that the Mandatory Power (the UK) fully supported. The UK left with a clear demarcation of territories being laid down and then there was war - plain and simple war. WWII was largely conducted within the single territory of Europe.
- I cannot see that the UN or others would have regarded the ensuing conflict as being a civil war as boundaries had been very clearly proscribed. Boundaries had been left and still there was war. A "single territory" argument seems to me to be extremely weak on the basis that borders had been proscribed by the UK and approved by the UN.
- No More Mr Nice Guy Can you please give a substantiation to your claim? It was a war one way or another. Whether or not it was a civil war is, at best, a matter of interpretation.
- GregKaye 10:37, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
- An interpretation best left for experts. I think you may be a little unfamiliar with the subject matter here. AFAIK most experts in the field call it a civil war. I don't have the time or inclination to find more diffs beyond what Pluto supplied you above. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 15:35, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
- Number 57 Is your reference to 14 May 1948 in reference to the Israeli Declaration of Independence? On what reasoning do you say that the war was conducted on a single territory? The United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine was published on 29 November 1947 with text that "
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
To editor "GregKaye" (above)
- Errrr, excuse me? All due respect, but what are you talking about? You are erronenous on every single level. The civil war began in November 1947 between Arabs and Jews in Palestine, while the Mandate was still in effect, and in May 1948 it morphed into the 1st Arab-Israeli War. As you yourself admit and the resolution itself explicitly states, UNGA Res 181 was a *RECOMMMENDATION*. It created nothing and formalized nothing. It suggested, and the suggestion was not implemented; the Arab side rejected the Plan, and decided to prevent partition of Palestine, by force. UNGA resolutions are by definition recommendations, not legally binding dicates. No borders were formally prescribed (not "proscribed"). The British, moreover, did not support those recommended boundaries. They abstained in the UN vote, and then explicitly refused to implement it, due to the objection of the Arab side. The British authorities refused to cooperate with the UN committee who had arrived in Palestine to look into the issue of implementation of partition subsequent to the passage of UNGA Res. 181, so the UN commitee disbanded and left. Moreoever, the Mandate was still in effect until May 15, 1948, so even if one were to assume that boundaries existed after that date, there were *NO* internal boundaries in Palestine before that time, so the conflict before that date has been clearly denoted as a civil war, and rightly so. In the same period, the UN Security Council itself refused to adopt or implement the Partition Plan. It passed UNSC Res. 44, authorizing the General Assembly to "consider further the question of the future government of Palestine"...as a result of which a UN Mediator was appointed and came up with fresh proposals that were in stark contrast to the Partition Plan. The UN Security Council also passed several resolutions that established a neutral position for the UN with respect to the issue of partition, "without prejudice to the rights, claims, and positions" of either party, and called upon the parties to refrain from "any political activity which might prejudice the rights, claims or position of either community" (UNSCR 46; basically trying to prevent either the Arabs or the Jews from proclaiming an independent state in Palestine). You need to bone up on some of these facts. 12:04, 19 May 2016 (UTC)JD
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