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January 19

Category:Kangta

Nominator's rationale: Simply not enough content to warrant an eponymous category per WP:OCEPON as Category:Kangta albums is enough to hold all related articles. Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars 19:58, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
  • Keep, filled - this was one of my cat red link attacks, not sure what happened as I'm normally pretty sensitive to overcategorisation and usually try to fill out these kinds of categories. Which I've now done a bit, although I suspect that part of the problem is that being perhaps the Korean equivalent of Gary Barlow not all the articles that should be there actually exist yet. Anyway, it should be full enough now to stand on its own merits.Le Deluge (talk) 11:40, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

Category:Persecution by atheists

Nominator's rationale: The category has been emptied by User:Xenophrenic who indicated would be willing share a list of the content that was removed from the category. As nominator I do not have an opinion about the pros or cons of deletion of the category yet, because I don't exactly remember what was in the category to begin with. Marcocapelle (talk) 18:34, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
Co-nominator's rationale: The category fails WP:OCEGRS which states: If a substantial and encyclopedic head article (not just a list) cannot be written for such a category, then the category should not be created. For example, Category:LGBT murderers. Such categories attempt to misleadingly convey a causative correlation. Attempts to create a head article have been made before, usually resulting in this: Historical persecution by atheism or Historical persecution by atheists (see deletion discussion 1 and deletion discussion 2), and it is hard not to view the creation of this problematic category as an end-run around past community consensus. In addition, the category fails WP:CATDEF, which states: Categorization must also maintain a neutral point of view. Categorizations appear on article pages without annotations or referencing to justify or explain their addition; editors should be conscious of the need to maintain a neutral point of view when creating categories or adding them to articles. Categorizations should generally be uncontroversial; if the category's topic is likely to spark controversy, then a list article (which can be annotated and referenced) is probably more appropriate. As will be seen in the ensuing discussions below, creating a category to imply religious persecution is an attribute of atheism is anything but uncontroversial. Xenophrenic (talk) 18:08, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
  • Note for reviewing administrator: Up until now, every single comment made here has been in favour of keeping this category and opposing its deletion. However, User:Xenophrenic just made a request on the atheism article in order to WP:CANVASS users that he thought might be sympathetic to his POV here, seeing this his biased POV was not being upheld by the nonpartisan editors here. Thanks.--Jobas (talk) 20:49, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
    • Note for nominator per CfD instructions - After nominating: Notify interested projects and editors. (Rather than directly pinging several editors with known POVs.)
Well sound you forgot that you directly pinging User:Knowledgebattle, who is known POVs.--Jobas (talk) 22:21, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
The Historical persecution by atheism (see deletion discussion was from 10 years ago (in 2007), Well it's wikilawyering. At the time of the 2007 decision, there was no notability criterion for stand-alone lists (see this version of Misplaced Pages:Notability).--Jobas (talk) 20:14, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
What are you goin on about? This discussion is about a category nominated for deletion. Xenophrenic (talk) 22:14, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

1922 confiscation of Russian Orthodox Church property‎
233 Spanish Martyrs
498 Spanish Martyrs
522 Spanish Martyrs
Acerrimo Moerore
Ad Apostolorum principis
Agustín Caloca Cortés
Anacleto González Flores
Anti-Catholicism in the Soviet Union
Anti-religious campaign during the Russian Civil War
Cambodian genocide
Category:Anti-clericalism
Category:Anti-religious campaign in the Soviet Union
Category:Cristero War
Category:Demolished churches in the Soviet Union
Catholicism in the Second Spanish Republic
Chronicle of the Catholic Church in Lithuania
Cristero War
Dechristianization of France during the French Revolution
Dominic Tang
Eastern Catholic victims of Soviet persecutions
Enver Hoxha
Eugene Bossilkov
Islam in Tajikistan
Islam in the Soviet Union
Jaime Hilario Barbal
Jenaro Sánchez Delgadillo
Josef Beran‎
José Sánchez del Río
League of Militant Atheists
Marguerite Rutan
Martyrs of the Spanish Civil War
Martyrs of Turon
Martyrs of Daimiel
Marxist–Leninist atheism
Mateo Correa Magallanes
Meminisse iuvat
Miguel Pro
Operation North
Persecution of Buddhists
Persecution of Christians
Persecution of Christians in Mexico
Persecution of Christians in the Eastern Bloc
Persecution of Christians in the Soviet Union
Persecutions of the Catholic Church and Pius XII
Pietro Leoni
Polish anti-religious campaign
Red Shirts (Mexico)
Red Terror (Spain)
Refractory clergy
Religious persecution in Communist Romania
Saints of the Cristero War
Severian Baranyk
Soviet anti-religious legislation
State Secretary for Church Affairs
Temple of Reason
Three Martyrs of Chimbote
Tomás Garrido Canabal
USSR anti-religious campaign (1970s–87)
USSR anti-religious campaign (1958–64)
USSR anti-religious campaign (1928–41)
USSR anti-religious campaign (1921–28)
Walter Ciszek
Zynoviy Kovalyk

The problematic category was also inserted into these articles by editors other than Jobas: Darío Acosta Zurita, Islam in Albania (1945-1991), Mercè Prat i Prat, Pierre-Adrien Toulorge, Reign of Terror.
This misnamed category misleadingly implies that atheism (absence of belief in deities) is the source of persecution, which is nonsensical. There are a number of categories given for "Persecution by XXX", where XXX = a particular religion, and certain tenets of that religion (re: blasphemy, apostasy, adultery, homosexuality, etc.) might be a source of persecution. But atheism isn't a religion (a common misconception), nor does it mandate any persecuting action like some religions might (stoning, lashes, exile, death, etc.). There is a reason why we don't have a Persecution by atheists article to back up this category. Looking at the articles tagged with this category, it is apparent that persecution of religions by some communist governments is being mis-labeled as "Persecution by atheists", as if atheism was the source of the persecution. The communist dictatorships were the source of the persecution, and they were striving for an atheistic, non-religious government. The same confusion was applied to articles about anti-clericalist governments; the source of the persecution was the anti-religious government, not "atheists". Xenophrenic (talk) 22:39, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
Hi, Jobas! Would you mind refraining from making personal attacks? Let's keep this discussion focused on the category under review, and if you'd like to express your concerns about perceived behavioral problems of editors, please do so at WP:ANI. Thanks, Xenophrenic (talk) 22:39, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
Jobas, could you please give a policy-based reason for your oppose? Or alternatively, provide reliable sources which clearly convey "Persecution by atheists"? Also, I see no discussions where consensus to keep the problematic category was developed. Xenophrenic (talk) 18:08, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
Having asked twice already, and with no response forthcoming, I'll take that as an indication that you have no support for the problematic category you created. Xenophrenic (talk) 08:30, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
According to Geoffrey Blainey: "Most atheists rejected, as did many modern Christians, the idea of a God who constantly intervened in daily affairs. Another effect of Christianity, they argued, was the promotion of war and violence. It tends to be forgotten, however, that the most ruthless leaders in the Second World War were atheists and secularists who were intensely hostile to both Judaism and Christianity. Later massive atrocities were committed in the East by those ardent atheists, Pol Pot and Mao Zedong. All religions, all ideologies, all civilizations display embarrassing blots on their pages". (source: A Short History of Christianity; Viking; 2011; p.543), according to the same source Many priests were killed and imprisoned. Thousands of churches were closed, some turned into hospitals. In 1925 the government founded the League of Militant Atheists to intensify the persecution.
Under the doctrine of state atheism in the Soviet Union, there was a "government-sponsored program of forced conversion to atheism" conducted by Communists. Christopher Marsh, a professor at the Baylor University writes that "Tracing the social nature of religion from Schleiermacher and Feurbach to Marx, Engles, and Lenin, I attempt to explain how the idea of religion as a social product evolved to the point of policies aimed at the forced conversion of believers to atheism. After all, Marx himself never advocated using force to stop people from believing in religion, but in the end this is precisely what regimes did in his name."
So there been reliable sources cited that source of the persecution in some countries was the anti-religious and atheist government.--Jobas (talk) 23:03, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
The definition of atheism may not be important to you, but it is important for our readers. When you created the category "Persecution by atheists", you are telling our readers that there is persecution because of atheism, which is not true and is not reliably sourced. Hopefully you can understand that. Please let me know if you do not. A category which says "Persecution by XXX" means the persecution is because the subject is XXX. A category which says "Persecution of XXX" means the persecution happened because the subject is XXX. If you intended the category to mean something else, you will need to reword it.
Your Blainey quotes say three things. (1) Blainey says some ruthless leaders (he doesn't name who) in the Second World War were also atheist or secularist, and that is very likely, since there are billions of secularists and atheists in the world. (2) Blainey also says that Pol Pot and Mao were atheist and they also committed atrocities, which I think is also true. (3) Blainey says all religions, all ideologies, all civilizations can be the source of bad things, which is very probably true — but atheism isn't a "religion" or an "ideology" or a "civilization". Blainey does not say anyone was "persecuted by atheists". In fact, what Blainey was actually saying is that not all war and violence is promoted by Christianity, and he gives examples of non-Christians (Mao, Pol Pot) to support his point. You would know this if you read the sentence just before the ones you quoted on page 543. Perhaps this quote about people like Stalin, Mao, Hitler, Pol Pot, etc, would be helpful to your understanding: "Individual atheists may do evil things but they don't do evil things in the name of atheism." The blame for that lies with "dogmatic and doctrinaire Marxism", or totalitarianism, etc. (Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion; Pgs 315-316).
Your Marsh quote (if you read all of it) affirms what I have been saying, that it was the political regime, not "atheists", which did the persecution. From that same source, you'll see that Marsh explains it was the Bolsheviks who did the persecuting, not "atheists", although I'm sure many of the Bolsheviks were also atheists. I'm also sure many had mustaches, but that also was not the source of the persecution. Do you have any reliable sources which actually state that there was "Persecution by atheists"? We will need those sources if we are to maintain this category. Xenophrenic (talk) 18:08, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
Religious believers in the Soviet Union were not persecuted by the abstract Platonic ideal of atheism in general, but they were persecuted by certain specific atheists in accordance with one particular specific manifestation of atheist ideology.
Are you referring to the ethologist, evolutionary biologist and atheist apologist Richard Dawkins who spends most of his time disparaging and critic of religions and religious people, and by the way he in not a historian (according to his Misplaced Pages article)? as far i remember Dawkins suggests that phrases such as "Catholic child" and "Muslim child" should be considered as socially absurd, and he is a prominent critic of religion that has stated his opposition to religion as two fold: religion is both a source of conflict and a justification for belief without evidence. So please bring sources of historians.--Jobas (talk) 20:14, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
Apologist? No, I was referring to this Richard Dawkins. (And I don't understand what it is you wish to have sourced to a "historian"; clarify please?) Hope that helps, Xenophrenic (talk) 22:14, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
Thank you for your comment, User:Laurel Lodged. It actually is not, according to reliable sources, a legitimate member of "Religious persecution", which is the very reason why it was nominated for deletion. But if you have reliable sources which say otherwise, it would be great if you could produce them for us to review. Otherwise, your comment doesn't advance the discussion. Regards, Xenophrenic (talk) 18:08, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
@Xenophrenic: What are the attributes of the other members of Category:Religious persecution tree that make them worthy members of that tree which are not shared by the nominated category? Laurel Lodged (talk) 21:06, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose This category is certainly worth keeping because numerous reliable sources are clearly available on the topic of atheists persecuting people for numerous reasons including discrimination against people's worldviews and belief systems precisely because others were not atheists. USSR, Cambodia, China, and numerous other countries engaged in variant kinds of persecutions of religious people of all stripes. Following User:Jobas, excellent resources like "STORMING THE HEAVENS: THE SOVIET LEAGUE OF THE MILITANT GODLESS" by Daniel Peris (Cornell University Press) are easily accessible which detail various levels of persecution done by some atheists in the USSR, for example. The suggestion that one switch "persecution by atheists" to "persecution by communists" would obscure the issues because not all atheists have been communists. For example, Dechristianization of France during the French Revolution is a case before communism even existed. Also, the charge of atheism being a component of persecution makes sense give that communism is perfectly compatible with Islam, Christianity, and other belief systems. In other words, Muslim communists, Christian communists, etc of course do exist. The original intent of the category seems to have been that atheists be highlighted because people in the USSR, China, Cabodia, etc could have had communist societies with religious diversity. And yet the focal point for many of these persecutions went beyond political view points into personal, religious or ultimate worldviews. It went beyond politics and economics. Huitzilopochtli (talk) 02:42, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
...numerous reliable sources are clearly available on the topic of atheists persecuting people for numerous reasons...
It would be great if you could please produce them here for us to review. As it stands now, all we have are sources of religious persecution by communist governments and dictators as they tried to eradicate religion and implement an atheistic regime. Please be careful not to confuse the very real religious persecution by political forces in their attempt to eradicate religious influence, with "persecution by atheists", which is not what occurred. I happen to own Storming the Heavens. From the very first page: When the Bolsheviks came to power in 1917, they promised to sweep away all that was old in Russian society and to create an entirely new civilization. One of the most dramatic points on this agenda foresaw the metamorphosis of Holy Russia into an atheistic Soviet Russia. While the Bolsheviks ultimately attacked all religions and denominations with devastating effect, their main thrust was directed at the Russian Orthodox Church, which was still a vital force in Russian culture. As you can see, the Bolsheviks, a revolutionary political government faction, persecuted the religious and is the source of that persecution. But your confusion is understandable, as their eradication of religion would result in an atheistic society, but "atheists" is not the source of the persecution. I'm looking forward to the numerous sources you mentioned. Regards, Xenophrenic (talk) 18:08, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
Actually, even what you quoted from "STORMING THE HEAVENS" proves my point that the Bolsheviks went beyond politics into persecuting religious organizations which makes no sense since Communism and the Orthodox Church were not intrinsically opposed. Religion and communism are certainly compatible so the issue is not based on politics. It goes beyond that into worldviews and personal convictions (beyond communism or capitalism or any other political or economic configuration). Furthermore, in the intro of "STORMING THE HEAVENS" it does note that atheism was an active part of a social program so one cannot say that atheism was not involved Soviet activity "Created in 1925, the League of the Militant Godless was the nominally independent organization established by the Communist Party to promote atheism. By all outward appearances, the League seemed to succeed in its mission. In 1932, seven years after its creation, the League claimed 5.5 million members, 2 million more than the Communist Party itself. The League's Central Council in Moscow published its own newspaper, Bezbozhnik (The Godless), several other Russian-language journals, and propaganda materials in many other languages of the Soviet Union. Antireligious pamphlets and posters were printed in large numbers. The League's far-flung network of cells and councils sponsored lectures, organized demonstrations, and actively propagandized against religious observance. Leading Bolshevik figures gave speeches at the League's national congress in 1929, at which the League officially became "Militant." The Communist Party, the Komsomol, the trade unions, the Red Army, and Soviet schools all conducted antireligious propaganda, but the League was the organizational centerpiece of this effort to bring atheism to the masses.". Others here seem to have provided other examples of reliable sources on the matter already too.
I will admit that the concept of persecution by Christians, Muslims, and etc are difficult to show since even the concept of religious violence seems to never be a primary reason, but a side justification for normal secular ends or needs. There are of course works which document the recent invention of the concept of "religion" which note that conceptions of religion are not historical and certainly not found in any holy texts - see "The Myth of Religious Violence: Secular Ideology and the Roots of Modern Conflict" by William T Cavanaugh (Oxford University Press). Interesting stuff. Huitzilopochtli (talk) 05:58, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
... "STORMING THE HEAVENS" proves my point that the Bolsheviks went beyond politics into persecuting religious organizations --Ramos1990
Thank you, we are on the same page regarding the source of the persecution. Now we need to create an appropriate category to convey it. As for your other comments and personal opinions, they might make for interesting discussion someday.
Others here seem to have provided other examples of reliable sources on the matter already too. --Ramos1990
Perhaps the others would be so kind as to make them available for our review. The scant few sources provided so far, like the Peris source we've been discussing, only confirm that our present category is inaccurate and misleading. Xenophrenic (talk) 08:30, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
Hmmm...if you already agree that the issue is in things beyond communism (i.e. atheism and religion) then what is the issue? The sources of persecution are not in communism (as you originally proposed), but in atheism and anti-religious belief systems (in other words personal convictions on the nature of reality). Atheism is what the category tried to highlight - things going beyond communism or politics or economics so the category makes sense as is or with minor adjustments. Keeping in mind that Christian Communists and Muslim communists were around, it make no sense to limit anything by communism. Especially since the French (who were not communists) did engage in persecutions too. The scope is broader.Huitzilopochtli (talk) 09:08, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
Yes. That ALT would probably be better again. Laurel Lodged (talk) 12:56, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
User:Laurel Lodged, A secular state (such as India) is very different from an atheist state (such as North Korea). Let's refocus to the discussion at hand which is whether to keep the category or not (thus far, most votes are in favour of opposing the deletion and keeping the category). Right now, the related categories read: Persecution by Muslims, Persecution by Buddhists, Persecution by atheists, etc. We need to follow standard conventions or else all of these categories would need to be renamed. Thanks.-- Jobas (talk) 20:14, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
I agree with Laurel Lodged and Marcocapelle that Category:Religious persecution by secular governments would be an improvement. To be clear moving forward, however, Xenophrenic never said advocating atheism was hardly ever the primary reason for persecution. According to reliable sources, atheism was never the reason for persecution at all. Xenophrenic (talk) 22:14, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
Which sources? till now you didn't provide any source!.--Jobas (talk) 12:37, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
  • Keep / Oppose In the textbook Christian History, Professor Alister E. McGrath of the University of Oxford in England writes that "From 1925 onwards, the League of Militant Atheists had urged the burning and dynamiting of huge numbers of Soviet churches, including some of great cultural importance." History is filled with several instances of persecution by atheists; Christians, in addition to Muslims, Buddhists and others have died or been placed in gulag camps as a result of intolerance by some atheist groups, in addition to atheist governments, and militant atheist leaders, such as Enver Hoxha, the dictator of the Socialist Republic of Albania. A Dictionary of Albanian Religion, Mythology, and Folk Culture states that:

Article 37 of the Albanian constitution of 1976 stipulated, "The State recognizes no religion and supports and carries out atheist propaganda in order to implant a scientific materialist world outlook in people."

Accordingly, Edwin E. Jacques in "The Albanians: An Ethnic History from Prehistoric Times to the Present" writes that “Northern mountaineers too insisted that the authorities should distinguish between the removal of politically unreliable priests and the fundamental human right to believe in God. Nevertheless, every mosque, church, monastery, convent, religious school, hospital or orphanage throughout the country was burned down, torn down or converted to serve what the state called ‘some more useful purpose.’” One editor's attempt to remove all the articles from this category and then nominate it for deletion is very inappropriate. Their edits will need rollbacked in due time. AR E N Z O Y 1 6A•t a l k• 16:07, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
Are you referring to the priest and Christian apologist Alister McGrath who spends most of his time disparaging atheists and atheism (according to his Misplaced Pages article)? Yeah, I'd be a little cautious about leaning too heavily on him in this matter. You quote him about the League of Militant Atheists, but you should realize that was an "organization established by the Communist Party to promote atheism" (page 2 of the source recommended above by Ramos1990), and was a tool of the communists who were doing the actual persecution.
History is filled with several instances of persecution by atheists...
Then it should be no trouble for you to produce the reliable sources to support that contention. Please remember that we are looking for sources which state there was "Persecution by atheists", and not persecution by governments trying to eradicate religion and establish an atheistic regime, and not persecution by dictators or totalitarians who also happen to be atheist. Looking forward to your help, Xenophrenic (talk) 18:08, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
Well being a priest do not minimize him, wasn't Georges Lemaître who proposed the theory of the expansion of the universe a priest also?. Alister McGrath is an intellectual historian, who's currently holds the Andreas Idreos Professorship in Science and Religion in the Faculty of Theology and Religion at the University of Oxford. who's was previously Professor of Theology, Ministry, and Education at King's College London and Head of the Centre for Theology, Religion and Culture. who's has also taught at Cambridge University and is a Teaching Fellow at Regent College. McGrath who's holds three doctorates from the University of Oxford, a DPhil in Molecular Biophysics, a Doctor of Divinity in Theology and a Doctor of Letters in Intellectual History.--Jobas (talk) 20:37, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
Gee, that's all really nice. But none of that addresses the reliably sourced fact that the League was the name given to the organization created by the Communist Party to promote atheism and eradicate religion, so the communists are the persecutors - making "Persecuted by atheists" inapplicable. Xenophrenic (talk) 22:14, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
  • Comment In my view this issue is a symptom from a deeper issue. While verifiability is at the core of ALL Misplaced Pages content, it appears that there is a strong reluctance to uphold this core policy for category membership and templates. I have never been convinced by any of the arguments that such category or template inclusions are harmless, and merely for convenience (as they are in my potentially misleading and even if true often original research (synthesis)). But for some reason the majority of editors simply does not appear to care about misleading implication in categories and templates. In other words, I am not sure this is the place to reach consensus on this, as similar problems are much broader across the whole project. In fact references I added to templates have been removed as overdoing it, and citation needed tags in templates have been aggressively removed because they would list all articles where the template was included as a page being insufficiently referenced (which is by definition the case by adding an unsourced template) rather than only the template itself. There does not even seem to be a way to add references to category membership (which in my view makes all challenged categories removable per core policies) Arnoutf (talk) 19:51, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
  • Strong Delete - The 'Soviet communism = atheism' is a Christian-apologist 'talking points' meme that appeared around a decade ago, and is still somewhat popular one today (although it is growing quite tired, and has practically disappeared as a 'debate-gotcha'). It is of the opinion of some (and any citations will be to these) that it was not, in fact, a totalitarian leadership (like many organised religions) that opposed religion, but an "atheist" one. This category is only trying to 'reinforce' that selective view of reality in an effort present it as, not the selective-reality opinion it is, but fact. There are dozens of articles that try to do this as well, such as the State Atheism one... the facts within the article may be individually real, but together under that title, they are, at best, an opinion presented as fact, and, at worst, a lie. THEPROMENADER ✎ ✓ 21:59, 20 January 2017 (UTC) — Note: An editor has expressed a concern that editors have been canvassed to this discussion.
No, I was not canvassed at all: I came across a notification that this discussion was open on the Talk:Atheism page.
The fact that someone would resort to this sort of based-on-no-evidence wikilawyering-accusation rather than present a rebuttal only underlines the above. THEPROMENADER ✎ ✓ 06:00, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
User:Xenophrenic made a request on the atheism article in order to WP:CANVASS users that he thought might be sympathetic to his POV here, we provide sources as According to Geoffrey Blainey: "It tends to be forgotten, however, that the most ruthless leaders in the Second World War were atheists and secularists who were intensely hostile to both Judaism and Christianity. Later massive atrocities were committed in the East by those ardent atheists, Pol Pot and Mao Zedong." (source: A Short History of Christianity; Viking; 2011; p.543), and user:Huitzilopochtli provide a source shows that atheism was going beyond communism into persecution by worldviews by other worldviews (i.e. atheism). meanwhile he doesn't.--Jobas (talk) 12:42, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
  • Delete per much of ThePromenader's and Xenophrenic arguments. Putting articles together in a disputed category implies a true relation between the article name and the topic of the article. Without a reliable sources making that connection explicit that is original research / synthesis. Arnoutf (talk) 10:21, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
original research ? well Geoffrey Blainey is one of the reliable sources that been provied.--Jobas (talk) 12:42, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
@Marcocapelle:, A secular state (such as India) is very different from an atheist state (such as North Korea). Let's refocus to the discussion at hand which is whether to keep the category or not (thus far, most votes are in favour of opposing the deletion and keeping the category). Right now, the related categories read: Persecution by Muslims, Persecution by Buddhists, Persecution by atheists, etc. We need to follow standard conventions or else all of these categories would need to be renamed. Thanks.--Jobas (talk) 12:33, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
  • With the alternative we will keep the category. But a secular state is a broader and more neutral concept than an atheist state. Editors in favor of deletion seem to be troubled mostly by the (narrower) atheist/ideological focus, I suppose we can reach a better consensus by keeping the category and broadening the scope and make it less POV. Marcocapelle (talk) 13:39, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
Again, same difference, and appeals to antiquity and popularity (number) do nothing to change the fact of the matter. "But it's a different word!" is not an argument, either, because the goal (presenting selective opinion as whole-story fact) is exactly the same, and it will tell the same story, albeit without the firebrand 'atheist' tag (and it is for that that those 'pushing' the 'communism = atheism' agenda translated the 'godless' in communist propaganda to 'atheist'), to the reader.
To show that any such 'atheist only' 'persecution' category merits existence, one would have to demonstrate, with citable, objective sources, that organisations not totalitarian, dictatorships, etc., persecuted in the name of atheism (or secularism) and nothing else. THEPROMENADER ✎ ✓ 12:59, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
  • The category, especially after renaming as alternatively proposed, is not in the name of an ideology, but by an institution for any reason. By secular states is just factual. Marcocapelle (talk) 13:39, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
  • If you can't demonstrate that historical consensus calls those states (and describes their acts) by that name, then it's not fact at all, it's, at best, a minority-view (opinion), and, at worst, an unsupported apologist affirmation presented as fact. Either way, it has to be presented as such, but categories and article titles are a sneaky way around that. THEPROMENADER ✎ ✓ 17:23, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
I have to agree with User:Jobas here since there is a difference between secular state vs an atheist state. Most secular states are not atheistic states at all (they are mixed like the US government or the Indian government) The point of that category is to note that atheism has been involved in persecution (e.g. the League of the Militant Godless and others). The component of persecution here is personal worldviews of reality, not politics or economics. Persecution of people due to people's personal convictions of the universe and reality are beyond the scope of any government. In a technical sense, none of the persecutions in USSR or China or Cambodia should have occurred since personal worldviews of relaity are not the business of any government. The fact that people and institutions were targeted over personal views of reality is surely disturbing since any politics could have worked irrespective of personal worldviews. The fact that they did occur is sure evidence that belief in atheism did influence persecutions to some degree. Why would atheists make organizations of promoting atheism and persecuting all other worldviews if atheism was not involved? Clearly it was. Another good text on a history of atheists persecuting in the USSR is the "The Plot to Kill God: Findings from the Soviet Experiment in Secularization" By Paul Froese (University of California Press). I think that what User:Laurel Lodged proposed of Category:Religious persecution by atheists is a decent compromise or perhaps Category:Religious persecution by secularism. I think that Xenophrenic mentioned that the association of atheism with persecution might be the issue, but this is not a good reason for removal since Christianity, Islam, and others are also not inherently associated with mandates for persecuting either. Furthermore, it is certain that when any persecutions occurred, it was usually done by personnel who favored it and personnel who did not. Like any military group or campaign, the work was done but that does not mean that most participants were in favor of the actions their duty required of them.Huitzilopochtli (talk) 20:30, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
Opinion on 'selective worldviews' aside (non-sequiturs that will figure nowhere in any article or category), that does nothing to change the fact that it was totalitarian/despotic/dictatorship regimes doing the persecution (the 'godless atheists' was but one Soviet-sponsored youth group, not the entire Soviet communist totalitarian-communist regime ); presenting that as just 'atheism' is both disingenuous and a partial truth (or, in other words, a falsehood), and no amount of 'selective reality' (sophism!) rhetoric unshared by any historian consensus, but only a narrow selection of apologist opinion, can change that. Presenting apologist-opinion 'talking points' without presenting them as such, especially as historical fact, is quite against everything Misplaced Pages is all about. "Category:Religious persecution by atheists' is attempting to use/abuse Misplaced Pages to WP:SOAPBOX a lie, period. THEPROMENADER ✎ ✓ 21:46, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

Category:GKIDS animated films

Nominator's rationale: I'd actually helped to categorize this a while back without realizing that this was a distributor, not producer. As stated at Misplaced Pages:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2014_April_15#Category:Drafthouse_Films_films and other Cfds, films have multiple distributors per market and medium, and accordingly this has never been considered to be a WP:DEFINING characteristic. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 18:05, 19 January 2017 (UTC)

Category:Ancient Roman forts in England

Nominator's rationale This one seems to have been left behind by a previous CFM. Just a tidy-up. Laurel Lodged (talk) 16:15, 19 January 2017 (UTC)

Category:Smart speaker

Nominator's rationale: Per WP:CAT, should be plural. McGeddon (talk) 13:18, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2017 January 19 Add topic