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References
The reference linking to GEO's own website is dead. Does anyone have current references for what GEO say about their own facility? Eflatmajor7th (talk) 03:53, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
Page quality
GEO no longer owns this facility. I am going to make some changes. If anyone can help with information, pictures, anything, it would be much appreciated. Eflatmajor7th (talk) 07:14, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
- GEO didn't own it in the first place. Niteshift36 (talk) 01:48, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
- Whoops, true, I meant operates. Thanks Eflatmajor7th (talk) 02:23, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
- Also could you try not to delete references when you are deleting stuff? Eflatmajor7th (talk) 02:25, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
- I don't think that a singular mistake warrants an admonision. Niteshift36 (talk) 14:36, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
Mother Jones article
Some of the things that happened at Walnut Grove are hideous. That doesn't relieve us of the responsibility of being somewhat balanced. There are some NPOV issues with the way the entry is presented.
- 1) In the original state, it sounds like this list is something official or an annual list. It's a one time opinion piece.
- 2) There is problem with the neutrality. Both writers were Soros Fellows and the article was sponsored by the Soros org, so pretty much pushing their POV, which included drug legalization. On the other side, there was no response from the facility, company or state DOC. Yes, they may have declined, but that will usually be noted. So you have a foundation directly opposed to company paying for the article doing all the talking and nothing from the other side. That should cause some concern. Niteshift36 (talk) 22:05, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
- I had to figure out what you were going on about. The article is a very well researched opinion piece. Both the two lead authors were Soros Fellows in 2012. That said, that was support for a specific project coming from a number of sources and I suspect teaching a handful of young associates how to do investigative journalism. There's no "Soros org." There's the Open Society Institute. Soros doesn't support Mother Jones, as best I know. Maybe you know more than me. Soros was a big stockholder in the industry, so they weren't hardly getting messages from him on how to be tough. He probably doesn't have time to read the stuff he supports. The article is about execrably managed prisons, not drugs. Ridgeway was 76 when this was written, after 55 years of writing for outfits like the WSJ. His colleague wasn't that old, but she is no spring chicken. It may be the last thing he ever writes. It's not surprising that GEO didn't comment. You've read dozens of stories about them, I know. Paez almost never answers anyone, despite being called religiously, except to say that they never comment on anything that might be in litigation. That certainly would have been their excuse here. You don't know whether they called or not. The article was written before anyone knew that Epps took at least $1.47 million in bribes to keep the lid on. Soros has funded Fellows who are against public prisons, but quiet about for-profits. Activist (talk) 20:08, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
Recent quality of edits
There was a good deal of extraneous material added to this article. The problems of Mayor William Grady Sims were in the lede, but the rape was of a female who had been housed at the Walnut Grove Transitional Correction Center, not the youth prison. The problems outlined in the lawsuit against GEO over conditions at East Mississippi, have no direct relationship to GEO Group. Consequently, I corrected many misspellings, confusing language, a bad date and deleted the mayoral and East MS references. Activist (talk) 14:47, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
- @Magnolia677: Regarding the deletion of sentencing information on McCrory and Epps, the pair were the absolute heart of the conspiracy to take bribes, to defraud taxpayers, and to subvert the most basic constitutional protections of the youthful offenders therein. All the rest were peripheral figures. It was only through the persistent direct intervention of the pair that perhaps the most out of control youth prison in the United States was able to continue in its disgraceful operation. They were getting $12,000 a month from the operators and laundering the proceeds, until the egregious problems at this prison inadvertently brought the local and statewide corruption to the attention of the U.S. Attorney General for the Southern District of Mississippi and the FBI. Epps alone took a minimum of $1.4 million in bribes and kickbacks. There were $800,000,000 in contracts that were rigged by the pair in a conspiracy that went back at least ten years, probably much longer. It has been almost three years since the scheme was exposed, and the two central defendants in the case have dragged it on since their indictments were revealed to the public over two years ago. I see that some editor has also reverted the correction I made a few months ago to the inaccurate and confusing text about the mayor, kickbacks and the rape. Please see the preceding entry regarding that issue. I'm undoing the deletion, but am certainly open to discussing it. Activist (talk) 14:55, 22 December 2016 (UTC)
- My concern is that you have slowly morphed this entire article from one about a prison, to one about criminal charges, trials and sentencing. Many of my concerns are discussed in Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view. Articles will naturally evolve, but you have completely changed the intended focus of this article, and I feel that about half the article needs to be moved to a separate article, which may or may not meet Misplaced Pages's notability standards. Magnolia677 (talk) 15:19, 22 December 2016 (UTC)
- Yes, this is becoming a newspaper about the trial. Some of it has nothing to do with the facility. Niteshift36 (talk) 17:24, 22 December 2016 (UTC)
- @Niteshift36: @Magnolia677: Actually, it has everything to do with it. Please read the entire lead paragraph in the "Criminal cases" section. To say they have "nothing to do with the facility" is like saying that Nixon's impeachment had "nothing to do with the Watergate burglary." In precisely the same manner, they proceeded one from the other. A security guard found the taped-up lock at the DNC HQ. The links between the burglars/"plumbers" and CREEP led to the FBI investigation and entire ball of yarn unraveling. The cover up of the chaos and violence, and the dropping of case against Mayor Sims caused Sheriff Waggoner to bring WGYF to the attention of the USAG for the Southern District of Mississippi, who in turn had him contact the FBI, and so forth. Sam Waggoner was scheduled to be sentenced by Judge Wingate today, though if he was, it's evaded the attention of the media. Here's a window into the magnitude of the scandal, which stretched from Walnut Grove fifteen years ago across the entire state corrections system, down to the county level, and has resulted in the charges against and the sentencing of many involved in the schemes.
Finally, as you can see from my September 17 notes above, I am scrupulous about maintaining the accuracy of the article. For instance, a number of editors (and some reporters) confused the problems with the mayor and his role of running the halfway house with being the "warden" of the Youth Facility. I couldn't remember the name of the actual warden who was in charge back in 2010, so I had to look it up after reading your objections today. It was "Brick" Walter Tripp, who still works for GEO. The only role that mayor Sims had in the youth facility, as far as I'm aware, was in promoting the funding of the expansion, I believe, which subject has not been a focus in relation to the scandals, though the state is on the hook for tens of millions in bonded indebtedness. Activist (talk) 06:01, 23 December 2016 (UTC)Epps faces up to 23 years after pleading guilty to money laundering and filing false tax returns related to $1.47 million in bribes prosecutors say he took. He is forfeiting $1.7 million in assets. Cecil McCrory, a former state House member, pleaded guilty to one count of money laundering conspiracy and faces up to 20 years. He’s also forfeiting $1.7 million in assets. Their sentencing has been delayed.
- @Niteshift36: @Magnolia677: Actually, it has everything to do with it. Please read the entire lead paragraph in the "Criminal cases" section. To say they have "nothing to do with the facility" is like saying that Nixon's impeachment had "nothing to do with the Watergate burglary." In precisely the same manner, they proceeded one from the other. A security guard found the taped-up lock at the DNC HQ. The links between the burglars/"plumbers" and CREEP led to the FBI investigation and entire ball of yarn unraveling. The cover up of the chaos and violence, and the dropping of case against Mayor Sims caused Sheriff Waggoner to bring WGYF to the attention of the USAG for the Southern District of Mississippi, who in turn had him contact the FBI, and so forth. Sam Waggoner was scheduled to be sentenced by Judge Wingate today, though if he was, it's evaded the attention of the media. Here's a window into the magnitude of the scandal, which stretched from Walnut Grove fifteen years ago across the entire state corrections system, down to the county level, and has resulted in the charges against and the sentencing of many involved in the schemes.
- Breaking into a house you formerly owned and stealing light fixtures has nothing to do with this facility. It has to do with a person who used to work there. Even if he was employed there when it happened (which he wasn't), I'd still consider it having nothing to do with the facility. Niteshift36 (talk) 03:55, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
- @Niteshift36: @Magnolia677: Epps didn't "work there." He was the Commissioner of Corrections, directing all the prisons in the state, the criminal who approved the contracts for the operations of this and the other state prisons. He was getting bribes from those who held those contracts, at least $1.47 million but probably much more. The prison expanded its capacity substantially because he facilitated that enlargement. The reason the prison was able to operate so out of control is because he suppressed the circumstances of the criminal behavior and the incompetence of those who paid him the bribes from public knowledge. He aggressively prevented effective oversight. I referred you to the lead paragraph that described the problems. The article is not about a group of buildings. Rather it is about the terrible, unrestrained horrors that were happening inside those buildings and why they were allowed to happen for years. Epps is the main reason the prison became a national scandal. He is the reason the Mississippi taxpayers now owe tens of millions for the empty prison. He and his crime partner were able to remain out of prison only because they agreed to return $1.7 million each that had been stolen from the taxpayers, because they wore devices to record the conversations with, and provided other evidence against, those who supplied the bribe money. However, he is back in jail because of his continuing dishonesty, his subsequent burglary arrest. The prison architecture, or whatever, is not the reason it has an article, it's Epps and McCrory, just like the Attica article is about Nelson Rockefeller and the 43 killed there, the Lubyanka building article is about Lavrentiy Beria and Stalin's purges, and Abu Ghraib prison is about Saddam Hussein's and the U.S. military's torture program there. Activist (talk) 18:42, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
- Stop clouding the actual issue. Who was Epps employed by when he was arrested on November 1, 2016? (No one) Did he steal anything from the Walnut Grove Correctional Facility that resulted in the arrest on November 1, 2016? (no) Was the second home the items were found in owned by the Walnut Grove Correctional Facility? (no). THAT is why the edit was removed. "The article is not about a group of buildings. Rather it is about the terrible, unrestrained horrors that were happening inside those buildings and why they were allowed to happen for years. Epps is the main reason the prison became a national scandal." That quote right there tells me how confused you are about this article. This article is about WGCF, not Attica, Abu Ghraib or every misdeed done by Epps. It is about the facility and the direct history of that facility. Stop thinking like an activist with an agenda and start thinking like an encyclopedia editor. Niteshift36 (talk) 19:03, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
- User:Niteshift36 is right to mention Attica Correctional Facility, whose article is separate from the Attica Prison riot. As I suggested earlier, instead of morphing this article in several directions, a separate article about the various scandals and players associated with the prison may be the best route, though there is no guarantee it will pass notability. Magnolia677 (talk) 20:26, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
- @Niteshift36: Please refrain from leveling personal insults and giving orders. WP:AGF Thank you. 07:42, 1 January 2017 (UTC)
- User:Niteshift36 is right to mention Attica Correctional Facility, whose article is separate from the Attica Prison riot. As I suggested earlier, instead of morphing this article in several directions, a separate article about the various scandals and players associated with the prison may be the best route, though there is no guarantee it will pass notability. Magnolia677 (talk) 20:26, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
- @Niteshift36: @Magnolia677: Epps didn't "work there." He was the Commissioner of Corrections, directing all the prisons in the state, the criminal who approved the contracts for the operations of this and the other state prisons. He was getting bribes from those who held those contracts, at least $1.47 million but probably much more. The prison expanded its capacity substantially because he facilitated that enlargement. The reason the prison was able to operate so out of control is because he suppressed the circumstances of the criminal behavior and the incompetence of those who paid him the bribes from public knowledge. He aggressively prevented effective oversight. I referred you to the lead paragraph that described the problems. The article is not about a group of buildings. Rather it is about the terrible, unrestrained horrors that were happening inside those buildings and why they were allowed to happen for years. Epps is the main reason the prison became a national scandal. He is the reason the Mississippi taxpayers now owe tens of millions for the empty prison. He and his crime partner were able to remain out of prison only because they agreed to return $1.7 million each that had been stolen from the taxpayers, because they wore devices to record the conversations with, and provided other evidence against, those who supplied the bribe money. However, he is back in jail because of his continuing dishonesty, his subsequent burglary arrest. The prison architecture, or whatever, is not the reason it has an article, it's Epps and McCrory, just like the Attica article is about Nelson Rockefeller and the 43 killed there, the Lubyanka building article is about Lavrentiy Beria and Stalin's purges, and Abu Ghraib prison is about Saddam Hussein's and the U.S. military's torture program there. Activist (talk) 18:42, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
Lead
The lead on this article tries to jam everything into it. It has an advocacy/point making tone, rather than a neutral, informational one. A re-write may be in order. Niteshift36 (talk) 17:21, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
Massive deletions by Niteshift36
@Niteshift36: @Parkwells: @Lockley: No, once again you insult the intelligence of numerous other editors who have painstakingly worked for many, many hours, to maintain and improve an article who have engaged in a collaborative process, by your trademark "slash and burn" savaging of an article that neutrally recounts with well-sourced edits, a complex situation, by essentially and exclusively mounting a corporate reputation defense, whether or not you have a COI. It is precisely where once more, GEO Group was intimately involved, this time by the corporation's giving $10,000 monthly for years to be split between the pair of crime partners involved in corrupting the process of awarding state contracts mainly to GEO Group, but also to about a dozen other contractors, over half of whom have already admitted their guilt, been convicted or committed suicide, while the rest await trial. By his actions, Epps stole what appears to be tens of taxpayer millions in overpayments involving rigged contracts. He admitted that he frequently demanded, but periodically took, a minimum of $1.47 million in bribes, but most likely far, far skimmed more than that. His prime bagman, McCrory, presumably kept over a million. It resulted in what is agreed upon by most experts who have weighed in, as the nation's collectively most egregious violation of the civil and human rights of over thousands of unfortunate young, "vulnerable" and often disabled prisoners upon whom punishment has been heaped far and beyond what any sentencing court could have possibly imagined. You have, typically, as you have done dozens of times in the recent and distant past, without a care in the world, struck 871 consecutive words this time. Those were words that had been carefully considered by all those other demonstrably "good faith" editors, and you are again imperiously imposing your autonomous judgement on their consultative work, essentially as eminently disposable. Once again, rather than adding productively to the community process, you have wielded your virtual eraser to trash, in a few keystrokes, their extensive and well considered toil, then you have the gall warn them that they should not act as you have once again done, and dare to repair and restore the effects of your destruction. You've been through this, over and over, with a host of other editors, a good many of whom have no doubt abandoned the process as Misplaced Pages contributors in frustration with your cavalier ravaging of their efforts. If you have some alternate explanation, why it is that rather than contributing useful information, you consistently and exclusively delete massive quantities of data that may in any way be construed to reflect poorly, particularly on GEO, but also upon those others whom you've chosen to champion? Activist (talk) 22:56, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
- As I said here in a previous discussion, this article is being morphed from one about a prison, to one about criminal charges, trials and sentencing. Start a separate article about the trials and so forth. Magnolia677 (talk) 00:33, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
- @WhisperToMe:, @Eflatmajor7th:, @Lockley:, @Niteshift:, @Parkwells:, @Magnolia677: I actually went back to the earlier talk in which you explained your position, and intended to copy you (and Whispertome, Eflatmajor7th) who have made substantial prior edits and deletions to this series of articles that revolved around the Mississippi ethical swamp). Unfortunately, family matters called me away for a couple of hours. The article is precisely about the sorry history of this prison, since its foundation in 2001 when Epps was deputy commissioner, to its first massive expansion in 2003, when Epps was Commissioner, and through its subsequent expansions. The prison, which never should have been built, and its horrific mistreatment of almost a generation of children, was the product of bribery, conspiracy, malfeasance and incompetence. Besides the staggeringly corrupt Epps, the only compromised players named in the article were those co-conspirators who drew attention to it in the first place: The rapist William Grady Sims, and their admittedly corrupt business partner of 15-20 years, Cecil McCrory. The grifter Robert Simmons, who skimmed $10,000 a month from Andrew Jenkins who built this overpriced and demonstrably useless, now empty, $152 million piece of junk, that amount now entirely owed by the Mississippi taxpayer, of whom you are one, and kicked a good chunk of the dough back to Epps and McCrory. Sam Waggoner, who was not mentioned, gave more than $108,000 to Epps, taken from the pockets of poor people who were forced to subsidize his extortionate phone contracts, among others. That means inmates' families which couldn't afford to visit, also could hardly afford to pay those overcharges to Global*Tel in order to talk to their teenage sons or brothers. When he tried to stop paying the bribes, and to back out of the rapacious deal, Epps terrorized him. It's about the management of Cornell, corrupt since its inception 20 years ago, and GEO's which bought Cornell and brought its own sorry history to this tiny town, and now MTC, playing musical chairs, which has demonstrated prodigious incompetence in various places such as the riot-torn gulags in Kingman, Arizona and Willacy County, Texas, another bribe-infested venture each of which have accrued almost as much unpayable public debt as Walnut Grove. The only other player mentioned and subsequently scrubbed from the article was Emmitt Sparkman, who goes back 20 years hand-in-glove with Epps and McCrory, and who has now retired from public "service." Unlike Niteshift36, you have a long and responsible history at Misplaced Pages. I would ask that you revisit that massive edit which duplicated his or hers, and discuss and possibly surgically remove those parts which you can justify to your peers, rather than simply wiping it from history as would a Ministry of Truth. You've amputated the head, rather than removing what might be arguably surplus growths. It's a question of decency, and I see no indication that you are not a person who would disregard that, after giving some thought to the matter. Lastly, the reason the article needs to contain this information is so it is available for those members of the Misplaced Pages public who haven't the time, background or the patience to give more substantial consideration to the issues it presents. In the words of Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis, "Sunlight is said to be the best of disinfectants" Activist (talk) 03:05, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
- When you're ready to discuss the actual issue and not just rant about your unfounded conspiracy theories, I'll be ready. You've got to stop thinking like an activist with an agenda. You threw the same fit over this in the other article. After a lot of words and a lot of bad faith allegations by you, we ended up with what I advocated all along.....a few sentences that describe what happened and a clear path to a more in depth account. No "truth" has been hidden. Everything doesn't go every where. As I pointed out before, the attack on Pearl Harbor was a far more historically relevant event than this, but the article on World War 2 mentions it, gives it a sentence or two and then a clear path to find more information. Your response above has POV written all over it..."gulags", "terrorized", "the rapist", "the grafter" and so on. You are so deeply passionate about this that I suspect you honestly don't even realize how non-neutral you sound. Instead, you make false allegations about me. Please, calm down and try to be objective for a change. And please, please.... ping a person once, not every single person every time you reply. Niteshift36 (talk) 03:22, 9 March 2017 (UTC)