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Something fun from Jimbo for the politically inclined

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Utter Debacle

You may want to take a look at User talk:Publicgirluk, and the associated Misplaced Pages:Publicgirluk photo debate and Misplaced Pages:Deletion_review/Log/2006_August_27#Publicgirluk.27s_images. Quite frankly, the attitudes and actions of some of the editors and admins during this farce have been unbelievable. They've managed to drive away a user who attempted to contribute in good faith, and I've quit the project as I can't justify contributing to a project that treats people so shabbily. exolon 14:49, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

It looks to me like this "user who attempted to contribute in good faith" was likely just trolling us. The "utter debacle" I see here is that good people were suckered into defending this nonsense. "Publicgirluk" should have been indef blocked and the images speedied without so much as a how do you do. --Jimbo Wales 16:01, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I am unclear as to which edits you object to. WAS 4.250 16:10, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Nice to see good judgment prevail. Thanks Jimmy. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 16:36, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Trolling? How? If I was suckered I would like to know in what way? HighInBC 20:08, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

If I offer a guess (& I hope Jimbo doesn't mind me speaking for him), I'd say that he doubts that the average woman -- or at least, a woman who would prove to be a constructive contributor -- would post the pictures in question. -- llywrch 20:35, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

The block reason refers to Jimbo Wales, so I would prefer to hear his reasoning. HighInBC 20:41, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I think Jimbo's original answer is pretty informative. "likely just trolling", "nonsense" and "should have been indef blocked/speedied" should tell you what you need to know without pressing an issue in which Jimbo describes those defending publicgirluk as having been "suckered"... -- User:RyanFreisling @ 23:09, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

No, that's not informative at all. It is a list of Jimbo's opinions; his opinions may well be based on good reasoning, but he has only provided the conclusions so far, not the process with which he arrived at them, so I can't tell. Jimbo has not described why Publicgirl_uk's edits constitute "trolling"; ie., what he has seen in those edits which I failed to see. And I can decide for myself what I "need to know" without you telling me, Ryan.

I understand that WP is not an experiment in democracy, but I also understand that this is a consensus-based project. I also respect the fact that as WP's founder, Jimbo's opinion deserves to be treated with respect. But so do those of the rest of the community here, which largely seemed to be supportive of Publicgirl_uk in terms of following the guidelines of WP:AGF.

Jimbo, please go back in the page history of the blocked user's talk page and read her reply to this entire debate. I have spent a great deal of time dealing with trolls here and this simply isn't one. Further, Publicgirl_uk had already posted a comment stating that rather than defend herself in this debate, she would rather her images be withdrawn and was leaving the project. That is not the action of a troll. A troll, upon stirring up so much furor, would be having a great time; they would want to stick around and have more fun by stirring the pot some more. After all, what would it cost them? In addition, I'd like to point out that in this comment I mentioned, she also stated that she expected there would be a negative reaction to her withdrawal of the images, in her words the "no smoke without fire" argument; and here it is.

I think you've made a mistake, Jimbo. Your opinion is given great weight around here. This puts a (probably unfair) burden upon you to be more careful with what you say. You can't just toss things like that off without giving a line of reasoning. Perhaps you believe that the images she uploaded weren't appropriate for the site . That's cool - we have a process for that, which was ignored in this case (images deleted without consensus). Publicgirl_uk was treated very poorly by WP and it makes me ashamed of this project. We already have ways of dealing with, reporting, and correcting inappropriate behavior at WP. None of these processes were used. In fact, quite a few procedures we have in place for dealing with "trolls" was ignored or broken here. Look at the user's talk page history and all the users who expressed their wish that Publicgirl_uk remain as a contributor. I don't mean any disrespect, but you can't just go calling all those editors, which includes myself, "suckers" and Publicgirl_uk a "troll" without providing reasons. I know I am not alone in wondering what that reason is. Cordially, Kasreyn 11:22, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

1. Please WP:CIVIL. Your comment "And I can decide for myself what I "need to know" without you telling me, Ryan." was plainly uncivil. I don't expect an apology given your animosity, but I'd try to cool down if I were you. 2. Your assessment of the community being 'largely in support of' WP:AGF being the most important guideline for dealing with publicgirluk's uploads is plainly wrong.The community was not 'largely in support' of either view. 3. Your characterization of 'what a troll would do' is absolutely wrong - Just disrupting WP with this behavior is enough to retire the 'publicgirluk' sock. 4. Your continued haranguing about 'how she was treated' when it's clear that she has treated the community disrespectfully with her trolling is getting very very old.

I recommend you leave the issue alone (or at least drop some of your tired arguments as they have been rehashed to death) and try to conduct yourself civilly. Perhaps Theresa's advice on the other page you're pressing these same old issues is good advice to consider - "Actually doing something constructive, rather than the endless talk (which is happening on this page) feels good." Have a wonderful day. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 14:31, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

1. I found your comment to HighInBC to be rather high-handed and insulting; I felt you were talking down to him and belittling his request for information. It was his place to dispute it if he wished, though, so perhaps I shouldn't have butted in. 2. I don't see how it's plainly wrong; important talk sections on this subject have been (I hope accidentally) deleted and others have been closed, making it rather difficult to even determine what consensus there was, if any. 3. I fail to see anything disruptive in Publicgirluk's actions, and her defense of herself was startlingly civil and polite, which is very rare for a new user under such circumstances. 4. I do not appreciate my remarks being described as "harangues", I do not feel Publicgirluk ever treated this community with anything but the utmost respect, and how can my questions be "getting old" when no one has given me the courtesy of a meaningful answer?

I do feel that I have conducted myself civilly, though I will admit I have been sorely tried in that regard for probably the first time ever in my time at WP. You ask me to leave the issue alone, but how can I in good conscience? I am not in the slightest convinced that the editor in question was a troll. If you have some sort of evidence not available to me, or if there has been some establishment of proof to support your claim that PGUK was a sockpuppet, then I'd be very interested to see it. You imply my questioning is unproductive; nonsense. By questioning, I am attempting to find a way to make sure this sort of thing doesn't happen again. WP has lost at least two editors that I know of over this, and possibly more who simply didn't announce their departure. That is unproductive. If the talk seems endless, communication and, ultimately, answers and solutions, will be the best way for us to solve it. Regards, Kasreyn 21:26, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Suffice it to say that I disagree wholeheartedly with your views - both of my conduct and the original issue of the images and the behavior of the uploader. So have many. And like them I disagree with you for all the reasons that have (again) been discussed ad nauseam by what is now dozens of particpants.

Claiming there's not been enough discussion is particularly ludicrous, when Jimbo captures it best with 'should have been indef blocked/speedied wihtout so much as a how do you do'.

You're welcome to keep spinning on this, but I've said my peace enough, and done so civilly and directly. Whether you accept it or not is up to you. Peace. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 21:34, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

"And I can decide for myself what I "need to know" without you telling me, Ryan." is not uncivil. Please explain how denying your the ability to decide for others what they need to know is uncivil? Please stop trying to block this line of questioning. HighInBC 14:45, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually, it is uncivil. I'm not blocking anything - one cannot 'block' a conversation. You're welcome to keep pressing in defense of a troll if you'd like, but the reaction you get may not be what you (ostensibly) want, which is better policy and a better encyclopedia, right? -- User:RyanFreisling @ 15:36, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Please do not say I am defending a troll, I am asking why it is thought someone is a troll. If you wish to discuss this matter further User:RyanFreisling, please do so on my talk page, not here. I don't think seeking clarification is innapropraite in this case. I am not asking you your opinions as I am very aware of them from other pages. HighInBC 16:37, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Whooa! Calm it down people. Have a nice cuppa tea (or whatever floats your boat). We are all nice people here. Let's not let passion spill over into anger. Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 16:42, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. I'm happy to leave it lay right here. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 17:44, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

That would seem to be quite natural, as you are satisfied with the way things have turned out. Others are not, and thus are not happy. Kasreyn 21:10, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Because it was the right decision. Quite natural indeed. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 21:23, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

All this over some chick who uploaded naked photos of herself? Is there an archive somewhere? ;) --kizzle 21:47, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

If the person is labeled a troll based simply on the pictures she uploaded, doesn't that mean no one would be allowed to upload pictures like that—anyone who did so would be trolling by definition? This is very worrying because there is no reason to think the pictures were trolling—they could have been trolling, but they could have been good faith, too, and my money's on the latter. Particularly so since no other behavior from the user was trollish in the least. Personally I think Jimbo should apologize for what he's said here. Everyking 21:51, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Ya, I might be blinded by the fact that I'm defending an attractive girl who uploaded naked pictures of herself, but Publicgirluk is definetely not a troll, as evidenced by her goodbye message. Matters of policy over what some see as pornographic material (and not copyright, as that's basically been settled at this point that these pics are hers) are important, and should be addressed, but it would seem that labeling this user a "troll" along with other instances of below-average conduct towards this user are not justified in any way whatsoever, especially given the coherence and conduct of her goodbye message and other posts. --kizzle 21:58, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Needless to say, I disagree wholeheartedly. She appeared with little else of value having been contributed prior, posted extremely graphic photos of a young woman without verification of the model's identity or the image's license, and then took offense at the inevitable requests for validation (due to the increased risk and seriousness of such imagery). Her 'defenders' have decried describing her as a 'troll', and claiming she was 'mistreated', but it's WP and the exercise of good judgment that's been mistreated here. She was, as Jimbo suggested, 'very likely trolling' - at least in my eyes and, gathering from the other opinions posted, a goodly number of other users and admins. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 22:06, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

You would, liberal POV-warrior... ;) I just have a hard time labeling her a troll with such a lack of belligerance or a perceptible intent to cause annoyance, as her goodbye message seems annoyed but completely willing to abandon the matter. Regardless, it's over, she's gone, and i'll be desparately looking up google cache's for the deleted images. --kizzle 22:13, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I think the hoary old chestnut being wrangled over here is the definition of an internet troll. For some people, this label can encompass a wide range of behaviours, while for others, it is a very narrow range of behaviours being described. I personally don't think the banned editor was a true troll, but possibly could have been one masquerading as a new editor. Or she could have been genuine. There is no way to decide. But I do agree most emphatically with the comment by Kasreyn: "You imply my questioning is unproductive; nonsense. By questioning, I am attempting to find a way to make sure this sort of thing doesn't happen again. WP has lost at least two editors that I know of over this, and possibly more who simply didn't announce their departure. That is unproductive." That comment was entirely reasonable and not incivil, and RyanFreisling's accusation of incivility did not help. Of course, the real reason that "talk" over such subjects is endless is because no-one actually oversees a debate, summarises it, and moves it forward. So-called consensus building around here is often extremely anarchic, and the end result can be a bit hit-and-miss. A genuine attempt to build consensus will have someone (preferably neutral and not involved) summarising the debate and keeping the debate organised. Carcharoth 14:43, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Just to be clear, my 'accusation of incivility' was not based on that comment by Kasreyn, but this one: "And I can decide for myself what I "need to know" without you telling me, Ryan.". -- User:RyanFreisling @ 19:17, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Oh please! Ryan, you tried to enforce you viewpoint on somebody else and then when they objected with a mildly snarky comment you went off to hide behind Official Policy. While Kasreyn may have been condescending it was not worth mentioning or were you trying to change the subject? Triumph's Hour 00:59, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

There is one member who has uploaded naked pictures of himself. He is maybe 500lbs and he put them in all the articles related to obesity and nudity (I forget the exact articles). The images are very disgusting and clearly shock images. The images are more offensive than tubgirl. I won't name the person, but he was made an administrator. Anomo 20:28, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Wow, that looks like a case of the fox guarding the henhouse. I guess only ugly people can upload nude photographs of themselves. Triumph's Hour 00:52, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

My faith and respect for[REDACTED] has been rocked, due to the indefinite ban with the flimsiest of justifications. Sure it's Jimbo's baby and his will can do such things. I just thought, because of wikipedia, that he was better than this. And no I didn't get to see the pics.--Mongreilf 14:02, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I can't understand what's the problem.. I did get to see the pics, and they were nothing special -- This is much more.. "obscene" | Swalot 17:17, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Oh My God, That is easily one of the most disgusting things I have ever seen. Sound and Fury 00:33, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

That notwithstanding, the 'obscenity' of the images is not relevant. What is relevant to the status of the images underlying this (now ancient) thread was the identifiability of the model and the lack of verifiability of copyright license. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 15:24, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

That's right. Furthermore it was definitely worth losing a well-intentioned editor over. Sound and Fury 23:43, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Or, not. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 04:38, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

But we could've had our first ever Misplaced Pages porn star! Or maybe not. I have not seen the pictures but I am sure that we all know the consequences of hosting the pictures of an under-age girl on your website. The legal ramifications would be a little more severe than an indefinite ban. Sound and Fury 05:33, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Enough, already. Let this thread go! -- User:RyanFreisling @ 05:44, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

I’m not sure what the grounds for letting it go are. There have been endless complaints a vast amount of which arise from the fact that the user was indefinitely blocked when she considered by many to be quite reasonable, and would no doubt have been willing to refrain from adding similar pictures if asked. Had that happened, not only do you keep a potentially valuable editor but you avoid scandal. I have used WP for years and have only recently begun actively contributing, I was not keeping up with this when it was going on so I for one probably will let it lie, but it is disheartening to newcomers to become a witness to the large scale admin usurpation of the project, meaning primarily I think handing out indefinite bans is, unarguably in many cases, more a power play than "janitorial upkeep”. This handling of this case was, and is, outrageous; for my part I’m going to forget about it but I think we should keep a sharp eye on the people who took the hard-line on this user and I hope good can come from it in the form of restricting administrative abuse of power in other cases. grendelsmother 12:29, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Hello From Homestar Runner Wiki

Hello, Mr. Whales! My name is Brightstar Shiner and I would like to say hello on behalf of all of us at the Homestar Runner Wiki...for no particular reason at all, as it turns out. No I'm not a sysop or a beauracrat or anything, but I'm a nice plain user from over here. You should visit us sometime and talk to more important people like JoeyDay, the proprieter of our wiki. -216.255.63.167, a.k.a. Brightstar Shiner

The possible use of unfree images at no.wikipedia

Dear Jimbo,

We are (again) discussing the use of unfree images at the Norwegian (bokmål) Misplaced Pages. Some users argue that the projects themselves may decide if NC- and ND-licenses are allowed. Are they right?

Sincerely, --Kjetil_r 22:24, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

PS: If this is not the proper place to ask this question, feel free to move it.

NC- and ND- licenses are not acceptable for any Wikimedia Foundation project. This has always been policy, and always will be policy. Misplaced Pages is the 💕. :)--Jimbo Wales 16:05, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Like Kjetil, I am one of the contributors and admins at the Norwegian (bokmål) Misplaced Pages.

English Misplaced Pages (amongst others) seem to differ a lot as regards to the license policy pertaining to multimedia, compared to our Norwegian Misplaced Pages, where the current policy is to only allow media that adheres to the licenses at Commons. In my view, it is good that we strive for more free media-files, but is utopic to believe that all material will be completely free.

For instance the coat of arms of Norway, and coat of arms of all Norwegian municipalities are probably not free material (in the Wikimedia sense) - and never will be, and there are numerous examples of Norwegian multimedia repositories that allow for liberal uses, in many instances under the condition that the material should not be manipulated/distorted, or with a requirement that the source should be quoted. A instance of this, that is currently being discussed at no:, is the use of a big picture database from the Norwegian military, which is released for free use ("free" meaning in no payment required) use to all Norwegian media - with the only requirements that the source should be quoted and that the material should not be manipulated upon.

Current policy at Norwegian WP however, and to my and many other's dismay, does not allow for such material. There have been numerous discourses at the Norwegian Misplaced Pages since this policy was introduced about this issue, in which the ones who argue for this policy use your name as reference that "everything should be free" - no matter what the consequences are. I believe that in cases where no available "free" material (i.e. GFDL etc.) is not available (e.g. coat of arms etc.), one should use "unfree" material, of course as we still adhere to U.S. and Norwegian copyright laws.

1. What is your opinion on this matter?
2. Could you elaborate why the Norwegian Misplaced Pages should ban "unfree" multimedia (such as e.g. coat of arms, material released to the public, but not GFDL etc.), when the English Misplaced Pages does allow for this?

--Lipothymia 13:40, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Fairuse clarification badly needed

Jimbo,

Some editors are making statements in your name to imply that you've forbidden the use of {{promophoto}} fair-use images in biographies of living people, because hypothetically, it's possible that eventually a free image may be obtained. I started a row with Ed g2s at AN/I over 15 images of U.S. State Attorneys General, such as, e.g., Image:AG Danberg.jpg for use in Carl Danberg. Ed has orphaned all the images, and continues to refuse to allow the matter to go to an WP:IFD discussion, which would determine whether WP:FU and WP:FUC require the deletion of those images (a question to which I answer with a resounding, No!). Or, you can tell us that all fair-use portraits should be deleted. But either way, clarification is badly needed. Awaiting your opinion on the subject,

- CrazyRussian talk/email 07:03, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I would also like to direct interested parties to the proposals at Misplaced Pages:English promotional images solution, given that we probably should be replacing these images, but an organised system done over time will minimise any damage to articles. LinaMishima 14:55, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that the above is a very good description of recent fair use cleanup activities. As I noted at WP:AN, if you find an image that Ed g2s has orphaned that is irreplacable and has verifiable copyright holder information, please let me know. These two points are necessary (but not sufficient) under our existing policies. There's nothing to debate at IfD if we are not meeting the barest of our requirements for image use. All of that said, I think that a remdinder to admins not involved in image cleanup that these requirements exist and that there is an enormous amount of cleanup that needs doing, may well be helpful. Jkelly 16:19, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

As the person who added those clarifications to the Fair Use page I can confirm that there were many editors present discussing the issue and that each paragraph I prepared (of the three now heading the page) was run past Jimbo before it was added. A number of related amendments were made further down the page and some minor drafting / clarification amendments have been made since which did not change the thrust of the three agreed paragraphs. --AlisonW 09:18, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

ArbCom confidence

Hello. I note in your description of ArbCom that you intend to intervene about as often as the Queen into Parliamentary business. Well, it looks like it might be time to dissolve parliament. Their resolute backing and support of their clerk User:Tony Sidaway (See above re. Giano and other issues eg. ) is incomprehensible and the extensive ill feeling it is generating brings Arbcom into disrepute and can only be bad for the encyclopedia. Perhaps you might have a word. --Mcginnly | Natter 12:28, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages currently lacks an effective way to mitigate damage done by contemptuous language and behavior by admins towards content experts resulting in the unneccessary loss of experts. WAS 4.250 14:09, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

What about a way to mitigate damage by contemptuous language used by and on behalf of "content experts" towards other editors with whom they have a disagreement? Why would we want an "expert" who thinks that anybody who disagrees with them is inherently incorrect? Why are people measuring worth by "number of featured articles"? (which is a staggering breach of the Misplaced Pages:Ownership of articles principle, by the way—does nobody else get to work on those articles?) What is the threshold of edits above which one acquires a "Get out of Wiki-jail free" card? When can one start being abusive to one-and-all with impunity? HTH HAND —Phil | Talk 14:29, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Bleh, why do people keep waving around WP:OWN here? The policy specifically addresses editors trying to take control of articles; there's absolutely nothing preventing editors from (informally) claiming to have written an article, nor, more importantly, preventing the community from recognizing (again, informally) those editors as the primary authors of the articles in question. (Indeed, proper attribution is one of the main points of the GFDL!) Kirill Lokshin 16:06, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages currently lacks an effective way to mitigate damage done by contemptuous language and behavior by admins resulting in the unneccessary loss of valuable contributors. However such language and behavior by nonadmins seems to be mitigated to a large degree by the mechanism of bans and blocks by admins without going through stifling processes. Perhaps admins themselves need to be subject to an effective similar mechanism as what we have now is not effective in mitigation to a similar degree. WAS 4.250 15:01, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Having said that, even if such a mechanism were required, Mcginnly's claim that I referred to anyone as a "boil" is incorrect. My choice of words to describe an ugly situation that I defused by some economical and well targeted actions was unfortunate if it led some people to believe that I did. We all need to calm down a bit, which is why I'm on a brief wikibreak at present. --Tony Sidaway 14:15, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) I don't think I have claimed that. Others have provided some diffs of edit summaries where you use a metaphor that uses that sort of language, I'm sure the semantics of it prove you correct, but the substance of it does not promote a 'calm and collegiate' atmosphere.--Mcginnly | Natter 14:32, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

You're right. I responded to the wrong edit. I certainly did refer to lancing a boil. I think it's an excellent metaphor but if people thought I was referring to a person that was grotesque and unfortunate. I don't know what a "collegiate" Tony would look like but I'm certainly calm. --Tony Sidaway 14:51, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Tony, your exact words were "When a nurse lances a boil, sometimes she gets covered in malodorous filth and she may be blamed for the smell. The patient's health prospects are immediately improved, however." In context, the meaning of your metaphor was widely understood: patient = Misplaced Pages, nurse = Tony Sidaway, boil = Giano. Exactly what did you think the word "boil" referred to? "My choice of words ... was unfortunate if ..." suggests that you're still on the fence as to whether it was appropriate to write the boil remark. Subsequent events would suggest that your metaphor was something short of "excellent" Vadder 15:01, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Tony was dealing with a situation involving multiple editors, not a single editor, so I don't think you can say he meant to say "boil=Giano". Though, I would request that he no longer tell us that he is "covered in malodorous filth", we don't need to know that ;). NoSeptember 22:13, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

The boil in question was a rather messy brawl over the result of Carnildo's RFA. I observed that the brawl abruptly ended after I took decisive action and blocked one of those making wild accusations about the arbitration committee, Angela, the bureaucrats and so on. Now I've been criticised for that action and I won't defend it here, but at the time I made that observation the boil I referred to was that particular pustulent growth. It was an unfortunate choice of words. --Tony Sidaway 17:18, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Widely understand Vadder? Only a few edits after Tony's I posted an alternative interpretation. Why no mention of that?

Moving on from Tony's ill-judged comment (I think we can all agree on that), I'm finding this whole affair very troubling. In particular one or two editors seem to be on a war footing and have become incredibly rude and arrogant. Apparently, this is excusable because of a high number of mainspace edits and contributions to FAs. Not my idea of a pleasant working environment I have to say and I think, Jimbo, this is a matter you need to look into. The atmosphere has gone very sour round here lately; this particular episode being just the latest piece in a long series of venomous outings which have already driven away a lot of valuable contributors, article writers and admins alike. --kingboyk 23:12, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

As for WP:OWN, I see small groups owning articles all the time. They have an interest and all share the same POV and so force articles the same way. I've seen many articles where for years the content disagreed with all notable sources because they could not find media sources that agreed with the group's POVs. They would remove any notable sources that disagreed. I've seen other articles where 1-3 people owned a whole category of articles and would skew their content to be POV, they also refused to allow pictures in any of the articles because the subject of them was taboo, the owners of the articles were that subject, and so they were sensitive about it. And most always administrators are ones of the ones keeping the articles controlled. So then people who try to improve the articles are pushed off and the articles remain instead of NPOV, as more like their personal webpage and a promotional piece. Anomo 22:16, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

In case you weren't already aware, a request for Arbitration has been made. Also, I'm sure your view on the practice of 'Arbitrators Emeritus' having access to the private arbcom mailing list would be appreciated. the wub "?!" 22:36, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

I wonder whether this is to be welcomed or not - on the one hand something needed to happen to resolve the situation - but an arbcom case where 3 of the involved parties are either clerks or members - surely there's some conflicts of interest and impartiallity issues here? --Mcginnly | Natter 00:07, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Tendentious editors

A proposal is in the works that would streamline enforcement of content policies and guidelines. The nutshell version is:

An editor whose contributions fall outside the realm of normal scholarship may be subject to administrative action after a consensus of uninvolved Wikipedians agrees that these edits constitute persistent violation of content policies and guidelines such as WP:V, WP:RS and WP:NOR. Arbitration committee action shall not be necessary for administrators to block editors who ignore impartial consensus. Banning is an option if repeated blocks fail to curb problem behavior.

This grows out of a discussion at Misplaced Pages:Expert Retention where a variety of editors agreed that content policies need more consistent enforcement. Administrators rarely impose blocks for content disputes without an ArbCom ruling. Editors who passionately espouse fringe beliefs can succeed at exhausting the patience of rules-abiding editors because current enforcement skews toward other policies such as WP:3RR or WP:NPA. This proposal would establish an impartial consensus standard as an alternative to ArbCom.

Active editors are inviting input to build a broader consensus and your ideas would be particularly valued. Please visit the page and share your thoughts. Respectfully Durova 22:50, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

---

The Misplaced Pages:Tendentious editors page may be good, and it may be necessary. But it will not solve the problems it is intended to solve. Essentially, the Misplaced Pages:Tendentious editors policy is a means to eliminate whatever POV the "tendentious editor" forces against the will of the consensus of editors. But what creates the "tendentious editor" in the first place is the lack of Misplaced Pages policy to define what Due weight each properly cited and attributed POV should have in a good Misplaced Pages page. Let me give you a Gedanken experiment to illustrate the specifications of a real solution to the ravages across Misplaced Pages pages.

• Let us suppose that we had a Misplaced Pages page publishing the quantitative measure of Due weight for each possible POV in any area. Let us say that the POV "evolution--religious controversies" is given 2% Due weight and that the POV "evolution--most recent peer reviewed research" is given 98% Due weight. Then the would-be tendentious creationist editor could be given some safe harbor in which to select the POVs to present the significant published views of "evolution--religious controversies." And of course, a neutral tone should be used in presentation.
• An actual quantitative measure of Due weight for each Misplaced Pages subject could be established in an annual vote among all registered Misplaced Pages editors, like unto any annual Misplaced Pages election. Registered Misplaced Pages editors would be presented with a list of topics, such as "evolution--religious controversies," "evolution--most recent peer reviewed research," "creationism--supernatural intervention," "creationism--scientific critique," . . . among which each editor could allocate their votes. Then, as a result of this annual poll, the Due weights among the various POVs would be set uniformly throughout Misplaced Pages and throughout time for one year and published on one Misplaced Pages policy page.
• The Gedanken experiment here assumes that most would-be tendentious editors would accept the community's published Due weight guidelines--because the guidelines would be in "writing" and not in a tempting amorphous flux to be determined by the consensus and power dynamics of whatever group can be organized to control a page.

These are not my ideas but the combined ideas of eleven good editors that wish us all good luck. Thanks for your time, and what should be our next step to define a clear quantitative and uniform measure of what Due weight is and thereby reduce the turf battles on each page over what weight is Due the various significant POVs of published reputable sources? --Rednblu 01:53, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Rednblu, due weight on Misplaced Pages is a matter of thoughtful editorial judgement and is not reducable to quantitative evaluation. It is exersized by consensus where possible and majority where necessary. Formerly enforced mostly by lenghy legalistic processes and now more and more often by admin blocks/bans. Misplaced Pages:Tendentious editors simply puts into writing existing practice. WAS 4.250 13:00, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Plus, some higgerant git nicked my shortcut! WP:TE used to go to Misplaced Pages:Tendentious editing... :o) Guy 13:03, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments, my colleagues. Yes, I have noted the progressive stages of the "tendentious editor" policy from its beginnings. And I have noted how it has been used and not used from the beginnings. In that regard, several of us have been rereading Federalist #10, and we have been thinking about how important it may be for the good of the cause to have sufficient constitutional blocks on what the majority consensus can do. And, in thinking of all the available models of human behavior and what organization it actually takes to bring to fruition such a new and promising distributed decision-making project as Misplaced Pages, we have noticed in the human historical record how important it may have been that George Washington performed his necessary presidential role by remaining silent in the development of the content of the constitutional blocks on majority consensus. The various editors of the Constitution negotiated among themselves the constitutional blocks on what majority consensus could do to minority POVs. Accordingly, several of us thought of lifting the argument of Due weight to the level of the whole Republic of Misplaced Pages as a quantitative, NPOV, and constitutional "cure for the mischiefs of faction"--where a "faction" would be any consensus of editors united and actuated by some common impulse of passion, or of interest, adverse to the significant, published, and properly attributed POV that the "tendentious editor" keeps inserting contrary to consensus. Thanks for your comments, and let's think about it. --Rednblu 16:39, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

To give an idea of what this proposal addresses, at Joan of Arc one editor spent a full year attempting to edit the article into compliance with his unpublished family tree. It took mediation, page protection, three peer reviews, and an RFC before he bowed to a chorus of editors who insisted this wasn't an encyclopedic source. Several productive editors quit Misplaced Pages in frustration. I've similar situations when I answer RFCs. The current policy enforcement just isn't good at solving this problem: ArbCom is swamped and few admins dare to act on a content dispute without ArbCom's approval. We could use a middle ground between persuasion and ArbCom. Durova 23:28, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes. Good example. But it seems to me that that kind of block should be written explicitly into WP:NOR and WP:V--for clarity. Something simple like a "block after three-violations following admin warning" rule should be sufficient, would it not? We don't want to scare newcomers, and the escalation should be gentle. But writing this encyclopedia is serious, and even newcomers should act responsibly. Just an idea; what do you think? --Rednblu 23:51, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Tendentious policy making is not good either. Codifying every act of judgement is not a good objective. WAS 4.250 08:26, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Precisely. The problem is not the lack of verifiability or neutrality, everyone makes the occasional mistake, the problem is the endless argufying once the problem of verifiability or neutrality has been identified. Disruption covers all of this, and is already part of the blocking policy. We can have essays on how to identify tendentious editing, how to avoid it, what the term means, but there is no need for new policy to cover its prevention. Guy 09:09, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree this is already covered in principle, but in practice too many cases slip through the cracks. The disruptive editors who get attention are people like Jason Gastrich who damage a large number of articles. We've set out with a narrow goal: establish a fair point for admins to take action. Is there a consensus here that a better way to do that is modification to existing policies? I'm interested in results, not process. Durova 14:23, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

That is also my sense-- that though the principles are mostly there, they are dispersed over multiple policies so as to in practice force the knowledgeable and expert to prevail through a trail by ordeal. Our intent is to collect it into a single spot so as to make acting on it clearer for all. And also, in my opinion, to scare the newcomers a little-- a least those who look upon Misplaced Pages as an excellent place to advance their pet theories.

P.S. Can we take this dicussion over to Misplaced Pages talk:Tendentious editors? Mangoe 15:19, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

International development & related wikis

Hi Jimbo,

I noticed on your blog, you said I’m doing this for the child in Africa who is going to use free textbooks and reference works produced by our community and find a solution to the crushing poverty that surrounds him, which is very close to my own motivation. So I thought I'd run this issue past you.

There are a number of wikis for non-encyclopedic information (projects, research, networking) on international development issues, appropriate technology, and particularly sustainability, which seems to me to be a pity, as there's such a lot of overlap. I'd like to see a lot more synergy happening, and to this end I've started The Wiki Synergy Project on WikiIndex.

It's just a start for now. I want to get people from the various wikis talking about this and hopefully create a larger, more active wiki community and a better resource.

Would appreciate your thoughts on this. --Singkong2005 05:15, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

I looked at one of the wikis using a foreign language that third world countries (like where the child in Africa lives) and those foreign language wikis have very little articles. Sure the languages of the rich nations have countless articles... no wait they can be counted... 1,396,758 articles, but not every language has a lot of articles. Anomo 12:32, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Death threats and policy

Hi there Jimbo. Congratulations on starting wikipedia. It is really great.

By now you are aware of the death threat issues that came up over the weekend regarding Homosexuality in ancient Greece. I was advocating a temporary period of putting the page in a condition that did not rile the person making the death threats. Many people (it seems it was a "concensus") felt that I was wrong in that view. Maybe I am. However, it also seems to me that these sorts of decisions should not be left in the hands of users and admins and made on the fly. It is really easy to be brave and tough when you do not believe a threat is real. But there are known incidents on the web where people did not take such threats seriously... and with really sad consequences. I can give you examples if you are interested, but I trust you have experience in life enough to suspect that such things do happen!

I suggest that a policy regarding such matters be considered. It's a heavy thing for a person (like an admin) to take a position that might -- even if the possibility is remote -- cause the death of an innocent person. I do not think it is fair to the admins or users. If[REDACTED] had a firm policy that death threats are ALWAYS ignored, such threats might lose their strength. Alternatively, the risks might be pretty high compared with the cost of a few days of waiting to sort things out. If[REDACTED] had a policy that a death threat is cause for pause, maybe it would prevent a tragedy. In either case, this is probably something that should be decided in advance and not at the moment. I know that if I were in your shoes I would ask myself "How will this look when (that's when...not if) it gets to the Newspapers?" Because just one bad event will be lots of media news and criticism.

Those are my thoughts... but... what do I know? I leave it up to you and those who have the responsibility to run this thing right! --Blue Tie 20:27, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

If there was a serious problem regarding an article, I'd suggest contacting someone from the WP:OFFICE and have them fully protect the page. No editor (administrators included) are allowed to edit an office-protected article. Naconkantari 20:29, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I belive the situtation has largely been resolved although the page will remain protected for the next few days.Geni 21:01, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I've emailed Jimbo and left a voice mail message for Danny about the situation. As Geni says, it seems that the situation is resolved for the moment (although I'm still waiting to hear back from the police). The individual in question now claims that his earlier threat was a "joke".

As for Blue Tie's concern; I know that it's important to take death threats seriously. That's why I contacted the police. However, "taking the threat seriously" doesn't need to mean "giving the blackmailer everything he wants". I think that it would be a very bad precedent for Misplaced Pages if we started altering articles based on emailed death threats; it would be an invitation for POV-pushers of all stripes to begin making death threats, with the knowledge that if they said the magic words Misplaced Pages would give them whatever they want. I feel quite comfortable with my actions in this case; I contacted the appropriate authorities, and it seems probable that they dealt with the situation. The threat was almost certainly an empty one this time; however, even if it had been legitimate, I would feel that I had done the right thing. If somebody is deranged enough to think that a Misplaced Pages article is worth killing over, that individual and that individual only is responsible for their actions. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 21:19, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

In other words, "No negotiation with terrorists." *Dan T.* 21:26, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, I do not think that we are the same as a government dealing in international relations. They claim to not negotiate with terrorists but they do anyway. Whatever is politically expedient.

Josiah, who did a wonderful job in this problem says "If someone is deranged enough to think that a[REDACTED] article is worth killing over, that individual and only that individual is responsible for their actions". I wonder... do we at[REDACTED] think that pausing for one article (we do it all the time anyway with blocks) is worth a human life? That is a very odd set of values. I do not believe we are as easily subject to death threats as that because, after all, the internet is not really secret. Your identity can be divined.

But that is beside the point that I was raising. I think that this is a decision that should not be put on the shoulders of editors and admins on the fly. I think that some guidance is appropriate. Although criminal law may not attach to inaction or "bad" action on the part of wikipedians, civil law may be brought to bear upon both the wiki entity for failure to establish guidelines and to the individuals making the decisions. that may suggest the areas of concern. And some may argue that the civil tort action will not prevail but who would want to go through the stress of finding that out? It's not a small deal. (Could[REDACTED] survive financially even if there was no success?) And legalities aside... it seems to me that it is just not right to lay this responsibility on admins and editors on the fly. But again, what do I know? --Blue Tie 21:43, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

In case of a crime (such as a death threat); the proper procedure is to tell the authorities (the police) and follow their instructions. Dealing with crime is their job. Our job is to tell them. We did that. If it becomes important for us to add or subtract from Misplaced Pages contents, we can trust the police to so inform us. If someone says "take down the whole[REDACTED] or i will commit suicide"; do we make a judgement or just tell the police and let them handle it? We just tell the police and go from there. They have experience in these matters. We don't. WAS 4.250 22:07, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

"courtesy blanking"

Hi -- can you explain this edit? Thanks, Sdedeo (tips) 04:39, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

For people without a large internet presence, it's common for an AfD on an article about them to be one of the first Google results for a search on their name. When that comes to Misplaced Pages's attention, the usual practice is to blank the AfD page. --Carnildo 06:15, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Seems in conflict with the prominent "do not blank" commands. Can we use a "no follow" tag to prevent google/etc. spidering? Sdedeo (tips) 06:24, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Annnnd... I bring you the all clarifying Misplaced Pages:Courtesy_blanking! Sdedeo (tips) 06:34, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, Jimbo, but this is a spectacularly bad idea. I cannot see an earthly reason why the Linza-related AfDs should be blanked. Several excellent editors put an enormous amount of effort into uncovering a gigantic hoax. Their work does not deserve to be insulted in this way, especially as it was achieved in the face of some pretty bad incivilty and a sockpuppet army.

But quite apart from the courtesy-to-Misplaced Pages-editors business, the main problem is this: can you guarantee that the sockpuppeteer and author of the article was not Mr. Linza himself? Several lies were told to make him look more notable that required a degree of personal knowledge, and the meagre Linza website changed at a crucial moments, depending on the various reasons being put forward at the AfDs. To me, that suggests either Mr. Linza himself or a close associate. If he was the sockpuppeteer, does he really deserve a courtesy blank, given all the time that was wasted and the useless distress caused? Best, Moreschi 10:27, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

WP:LUL

I hope you have seen the progress my project has gone through over the past few days. We have now started Wikipedias first Project Paper, which I see becoming a familiar item here. I have nine members so far and I am encouraging more to come by placing the talk page template on as many of our articles as possible. It includes our to do list. I hope you come and take a look. Unisouth 19:30, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Irritation in German Misplaced Pages about New Orders

Hello Mr. Wales,

in the German Misplaced Pages is a great irritation about new orders. First we heard in newspapers, that you will change the concept, that all users can edit in articles. Now you will, that a special user proof the edits, bevor the reader can see an edit in the articles. Why don't you speak special to the german users in the German Misplaced Pages bevor you change the concept only for the german users (named in german language: "geprüfte Versionen")? Are we special idiots or why need we a special concept in German Misplaced Pages? There is a great irritation! Please speak first to the german users in the german Misplaced Pages bevor you make a new order! Thank you! -- Nihil Kainer 18:22, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Um, sir... I'm pretty sure that it wasn't entirely Jimbo's decision... Secondly, he's not making the German wiki unwiki. wikimedia's testing a new feature... that's sorta like stable versions. -- Chris chat edits essays 13:59, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Comment I don't think that this guy is as much of an idiot as he sounds, he says that he is German and he probably used a translator. ~ Flameviper 14:53, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

You are mistaken on your first point but right on the second. Just ignore this posting. Sorry for the yellow bar anyway.--88.64.11.238 17:15, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

("Stabile versions" in Germany: "proofed versions") If it's not Mr. Wales idea, he can say, it's not his idea. Do you know something about the german discussion about this "proofed versions"? In this discussion the admins say, it's Mr. Wales idea and this is the end of the discussion, because he is the dictator and owner of Misplaced Pages. You think it is a joke? Read the german discussion! If it's Mr Wales idea, that the German Misplaced Pages have to change the concept, it is better he speaks with the German users, if not, he can say, it is not his order! Why is this a problem? -- Nihil Kainer 19:42, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Wikimania

Originally posted on meta:Talk:Wikimania 2007: I'd like to suggest that Wikimedia expand the scope of Wikimania beyond their own projects so that Wikimania officially becomes a general wiki conference and encouraging users of other wikis to participate and setup booths for their own wikis and so forth. The "wikisphere" is growing by leaps and bounds and as Wikimedia - responsible for mainstreaming the wiki concept and developing the popular MediaWiki software - obviously has a leadership position in this area, I believe it would be beneficial to all if Wikimania were to evolve in this direction. And of course, it would also potentially provide additional income for Wikimedia projects as a natural consequence by selling booth space, hopefully at a reasonable rate. Anyway, I think this deserves some serious thought for the near future as we continue to witness the rapid spread of wikis. WelcometoParadise 07:58, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Still musing

Appreciate your comments made at Misplaced Pages talk:Biographies of living persons and if you have anything else to clarify for future reference, the discussion is still ongoing here. Thanks.--MONGO 11:28, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Pat

I'm a vandal-turned-good-faith-editor. Could I have a pat on the back from Jimbo Wales? ~ Flameviper 14:54, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Brian Chase issue again

This bio has been reposted under a new title. You dealt with this once before. You may want to do it again. -- Malber (talk • contribs) 16:16, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

User:Skyring

User:Skyring was blocked per an arbcom ruling for 1 year that was supposed to expire on October 26, but apparently due to administrators not unblocking before blocking, his block expired today. He says on the administrator's noticeboard that he discussed the possibilities of early unblocking with you anyway, but I wanted to be sure of this so people don't go blocking him for another month when he has clearly already learned his lesson, in my opinion, and that a further block would be overkill. Thanks. Cowman109 00:42, 30 September 2006 (UTC)