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Levels of consensus

The levels of consensus section needs to be elaborated. Right now it names essays, WikiProject advice pages, information pages and template documentation pages (which may or may not represent broad community consensus, or one editor's personal opinion) and policies (which should represent the broadest community consensus). There are a few intermediate levels of consensus that are mentioned in the policy but not in the levels-of-consensus section:

The addition is meant to reduce article ownership behavior where an editor refuses to acknowledge consensus because they didn't approve it, or because there's no local consensus. Bright☀ 11:03, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

Changes in italics. Bright☀ 09:36, 20 September 2017 (UTC) Alternate bullet-point version below. Bright☀ 09:04, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

Added bullet-point version. Bright☀ 09:04, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

You have successfully convinced me you are thinking about something worth improving, but it's not entirely clear how you propose to change the existing text. The best way to communicate your ideas might be to just copy the subsection here and edit it the way you like, then post so we can see exactly what you're thinking. Thanks NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 11:47, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

Good idea, added. Bright☀ 09:36, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

@BrightR: Excellent, I'll take a look in a day or two. Meanwhile, as a housekeeping matter, please consider deleting my comments in this subtread. No need for others to review this now that you updated the original post. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 15:00, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

As long as we are discussing this topic... I would love to see some discussion about where policy related RFCs fit in... these can take place on LOCAL pages (article talk pages, project talk pages, etc), but are not necessarily LOCAL in scope (with wide participation, thus reflecting wide community consensus). One option would be to shift from "local" (focused on the place where the consensus was established) to "limited" (focused on the number of participants). Blueboar (talk) 12:46, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

Three things:

• Another consideration: The stuff that's in the current Levels of consensus section is really only about the difference between content consensus and policy/guideline consensus and the special nature of consensus needed for policy/guidelines. I'd be extremely loath to change that language or dilute it by inserting inside it material having more to do with general levels of consensus than with policies and guidelines. On the other hand, the current section title is too broad for just policies and guidelines. What if BrightR's material, or something like it, were to be inserted before all the existing material and the existing material (along with the three current shortcuts) were moved into a four-equals subsection just below it named something like "Consensus for policies and guidelines"?
• Having said that, I'm not sure just how useful or necessary this change is. I don't think that it's wrong or mistaken (though it probably needs some discussion and tweaking), I'm just not sure what problem it's really seeking to address that's not already adequately addressed here and elsewhere. I like it in one way because it makes clear something that's only kind of implied in this policy right now, but I'm not at all sure how needed it is.
• A word of caution: This proposal could by mentioning consensus by silence become very controversial and easily become sidetracked through that detail. Though the concept is, as noted, already here in EDITCONSENSUS what it means (especially mechanically, if anything at all), and the degree to which it should be emphasized has caused some heated discussions in the past.

Best regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 16:51, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

All very good notes.

1. No problem.
2. This is specifically meant to address situations where an editor engages in WP:OWN behavior by saying, for example "you don't have consensus here" or "that guideline is just a suggestion, therefore my version should remain until you have consensus," whether or not the current version has any consensus.
3. I tried to make it clear that consensus by silence is no consensus the moment it's disputed.

Hopefully this will make the proposal as uncontroversial as possible. Bright☀ 09:42, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

I'd been thinking about this topic for a while and though I reserve my right to comment further on this section in the future, I think the change is an improvement. I would like to see policies and guidelines separated to clearly identify that a guideline is not equivalent to a policy. Scribolt (talk) 11:46, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

Updated. It's worth mentioning that the order is not absolute; some RfCs actually have broader support than some guidelines. Parts of some guidelines (and even parts of some policies, couple of examples above) were written by one person and simply stuck, while formal RfCs always have broad exposure. Some talk-page discussions involve a broader subset of the community than some parts of guidelines and policies, too. Bright☀ 12:22, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

It is fuzzy and that was one of the things I've been thinking about, and is why some of the language used causes me some concern; "cannot" (where do IAR and sensible exceptions fit in), "breadth" & "wider" (for exactly the reason you mentioned above, this doesn't necessarily correlate to a 'level' of consensus arrived at by a particular methodology). However, although I've got some ideas, they may never turn into concrete suggestions, so as I said I think what you've suggested is an improvement.Scribolt (talk) 12:35, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

In general all the "cannot" in policies should be replaced with "should not", but maybe that's a semantics discussion for another time. Bright☀ 12:57, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

• The proposed change seems to be covered in the sections above the LOC....is the intent to link to the other sections that explains more?--Moxy (talk) 14:17, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

Yup. Bright☀ 14:19, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

oK. ....then I suggest we move the LOC section to before the others....odd to see the intro to the other sections after the sections it mentions.--Moxy (talk) 14:24, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

Good idea. What if we were to leave the current section where it is but rename it "Consensus for policies and guidelines" and then put BrightR's material (I really liked the bullet points better, paragraphed text is too dense) in a new section entitled "Levels of consensus" above the existing "Achieving consensus" section? Again, I'm opposed to changing any of the text in the current section. This is a draft of what I'm suggesting, though the wording of the last bullet point probably still needs some cleanup. Best regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 16:31, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

I like it....but all our templates like {{Information page}} and hundreds of administrative pages like WP:HOWTOPAGES link to "Levels of consensus" because of its content about the type of pages. Is there another name we can use because linking to the new section would be very odd for many incoming links. Perhaps call the section an Overview? Moxy (talk) 16:55, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

Good point. How about "Types of consensus"? Best regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 18:32, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

Added a bullet-point version, probably the one I'll RfC since it's easier to read. Bright☀ 09:04, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

I returned to load this in my brain, only to find two text boxes in the opening post instead of one. I might be able to decipher the full current proposal reading the subsequent discussion, but.... being a policy page, it will help the final consensus if new comers to the discussion don't have to do that. So as a housekeeping idea... to facilitate discussion... please consider creating a demonstration edit by first changing the policy page, then self reverting and posting the DIFF to the proposal. That would lock it in nice and neat for discussion purposes. If this suggestion appeals to you, I further suggest you name the DIFF anticipating that there may later ones as the ideas are vetted by additional eds. Maybe "DEMO-Ver-01" or equivalent. That way if additional good ideas come along, and the conversation gets convoluted, you can update the proposal with a link to "DEMO-Ver-02", and with proper threading and subsection titling it will be super-simple for people to instantly know what is being proposed and the current status of discussion. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 11:53, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

The RfC will not have two boxes; when this discussion concludes, I'll phrase an RfC neutrally and succinctly ("Should the following subsection be added to WP:Local consensus? ") Bright☀ 12:24, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

Apologies, if I had sorted out the subsequent discussion I would have learned of your plans to repackage it after initial feedback. Carry on! NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 23:35, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

Where do RFC's fit into CONLEVEL?

I mentioned this above, but it really is an unrelated issue from what is being discussed... so I am hiving it off into a separate discussion. CONLEVEL is missing an important item: where do RFCs fit in? The problem is that RFCs can take place on local pages, but they can sometimes reflect very broad community consensus (indeed some RFCs can reflect a broader consensus than was achieved at the guideline level). Then again, other RCFs reflect consensus of only a few editors. It all depends on the level of participation (not the level of location). Thus, I am not sure how to account for RFCs, but I think we do need to account for them in some way. Blueboar (talk) 12:29, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

RCFs reflect consensus of only a few editors. It all depends on the level of participation - exactly. It entirely depends on the number of participants and percentage of agreement. An RfC with a million participants and a 50% split between two options is a clear no-consensus, and so any local consensus is better than it. An RfC with 20 participants and 90% agreement is pretty strong, and local consensuses shouldn't be able to override it; if it's reasonable to believe the RfC might not represent the general consensus any more, then a new RfC can be held. Exact numbers should not be specified. Bright☀ 14:11, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

The problem is that an RFC held at an article level can result in an outcome that disagrees with something said at the guideline level (this is less common with policy). The RFC then gets dismissed as being a "local consensus" (due to location) when in fact the RFC is hardly "local". Blueboar (talk) 14:59, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

The policy page already specifies that it's not local (inviting others to participate), and in any case whether it's local or "broad" depends on the number of participants and the exposure of the notices of the discussion. I'm getting the feeling this is about the semantics of the word "local" in favor of the word "limited"? In which case, I strongly urge you to avoid quibbling over this, like this seemingly endless quibbling over the word "reason". Bright☀ 15:08, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

RFC's are a tool for obtaining consensus (just like 3O, DRN, or MEDCOM) , not a type or level of consensus. Depending on how they're "advertised" and where they are used they can either form local consensus or community-wide consensus. The difference between local consensus and wider consensus is the type of place (along, again I would argue, with advertisement) that the RFC occurs. If the RFC happens at Talk:My Pretty Pony or Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Radio, it's ordinarily local; if it happens at Misplaced Pages talk:Verifiability, it's ordinarily community-wide. The best place to illustrate the distinction is at wiki-projects. Ordinarily, RFC's (and, for that matter, ordinary consensus discussions) at wiki-project talk pages only form local consensus and essay-level standards for those projects (as currently stated at CONLIMITED), but with proper advertisement and intent they can create policy or guidelines. Thus, the means of obtaining consensus, whether through ordinary discussion or through RFC, isn't the determinant; it's how the RFC is promoted and advertised. To say it a third way: If an RFC at a wiki-project specifically says that it's proposing to create a guideline or policy and that RFC is, per the Policy policy advertised at places like the Village Pump then it can, indeed, create policy or guidelines. In that case the RFC is community-wide. But if you file an RFC at Talk:My Pretty Pony to determine whether chartreuse ponies can be documented through reliable sources, that's local consensus. Best regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 22:15, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

Hmm, good point, I'll revise the bullet-point list above. Bright☀ 23:52, 22 September 2017 (UTC)