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Hidden Tempo (block log • active blocks • global blocks • autoblocks • contribs • deleted contribs • abuse filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))

UTRS appeal #18968 was submitted on Aug 12, 2017 04:10:43. This review is now closed.

--UTRSBot (talk) 04:10, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

Just Chilling - thank you for your reply through UTRS. Just to clarify, am I meant to post another unblock template similar to above, and copy-paste the request I made through the system onto my talk page? As I already have an unblock request template active, I don't want to be seen as attempting to game the system or be disruptive. Although it's been about 5 days since I was indef blocked with no review so I'm seeking other avenues. Thanks. Hidden Tempo (talk) 14:54, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

Fair question. Your options are either to simply let your existing appeal run or to abort your appeal by commenting out the curly brackets and submitting a fresh appeal on the lines of your UTRS appeal. For clarification, UTRS appeals are only considered either if they contain relevant private information unsuitable for a talk page or if talk page access has been revoked. Neither situation currently is the case. A final point; the fact that an appeal has not had a reply does not mean it has not been considered. All appeals are reviewed promptly by several admins. The lack of a comment simply means that, up to that point, no admin has come to a definitive conclusion. HTH. Just Chilling (talk) 01:52, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Got it. Not sure if lack of consensus thus far is a good thing or bad thing for my prospects, but if any reviewing admin sees this and is on the fence, please feel free to ask me any questions you may have or request any relevant diffs of my statements above. I have written an appeal that addresses each blocking rationale somewhat briefly, in particular the initial application of the block that took about 10 minutes or less of deliberation with no warning. I will give my request a bit more time, and if denied, will supply the re-written appeal. Thanks again for the help Just Chilling. Hidden Tempo (talk) 02:10, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Additionally, I find it highly irregular that MastCell's last edit was on 21 June 2017, when he commented on Murder of Seth Rich (to complain and opine that the controversy around the murder is “distressing” to the victim’s family and isn’t compliant with “basic human decency”) , and he remained inactive on WP until 7 Aug 2017 (almost 7 weeks). Upon his sudden return to Misplaced Pages, he made a few quick abortion/gay-rights related edits to John K. Bush's BLP, as well as content about Bush engaging in "right-wing conspiracy theories." Thirty three minutes after his return to WP, MastCell arrived at AN/I and promptly indef blocked me. Including the time it takes to type up his rationale on AN/I, that leaves maybe about 10 minutes to review my three years of editing history (as well as that of Nfitz), come to the conclusions listed above, and decide I am unfit to edit Misplaced Pages. MC then gives a very milquetoast, gentle warning to Nfitz not to violate BLP (by repeatedly calling Donald Trump a "piece of shit," "misogynist," and a "bigot" with zero diffs). Note that these violations got Nfitz indef'd after another admin saw what he had been doing. This is information relevant to MastCell, not Nfitz - that editor's outcome has no relevance to my sanction.

After issuing my indef block and Nfitz's "warning", MC then went on his way to add some material in defense of abortion to Abortion and mental health (making it a statement of fact that abortions are fine for mental health, deleting research showing abortion can have negative mental health effects, and including alternative explanations for negative effects from abortions. And this is just one article. Taken holistically, MC’s editing history paints a clear picture, and I am unsettled by this sequence of events. I welcome a full, impartial review of my unblock request by a neutral, non-political administrator. I apologize for the walls of text, but I feel there were many nuances that were overlooked in my case. I’d like to again express my appreciation for the rally of support that I’ve received in protest of this sanction, and believe I may be the first editor to actually receive a Barnstar during his/her block. Pinging Dweller and Fram, as this matter may require the attention of a Bureaucrat, and I am not entitled to lodge a complaint of an admin while blocked. Thank you for reading. Hidden Tempo (talk) 04:58, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

• I'm not sure what you're asking a bureaucrat to do here. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 06:21, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

Hi Dweller, thanks for stopping by. Really I don't know what the appropriate course of action is in this case. My understanding is that part of what bureaucrats do here is provide oversight of administrators. I think when you have an admin with the demonstrated editing history, returning from a WP vacation to suddenly visit an hours-old AN/I report to indef block one editor (after virtually no deliberation, and issue no sanctions to another who does not understand BLP), that is a situation that needs some sort of oversight. If not, then I apologize for the ping and I will let this unblock request play out by itself. Hidden Tempo (talk) 13:55, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

Hi. The role of bureaucrats is very limited and is laid out at WP:BUREAUCRAT. You want WP:Arbcom or WP:ANI for complaints about administrators. Alternatively, if it's a privacy dispute, you might want WP:OMBUDSMEN. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 15:32, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

• I find this to be a remarkably dishonest summary of my editing, but if you think that this sort of thing will help you get unblocked, then go for it, I guess. MastCell  00:02, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

I don't think it's right you participate in some politics articles as an editor consistently supporting the liberal or Democratic position, then other political articles as an administrator handing out bans and topic bans. I don't know whether that's allowed but it shouldn't be. D.Creish (talk) 00:48, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Thank you, D. Creish. That was the issue that I was trying to make clear. I combed through MastCell's editing history and all of his edits that I found were in the exact same vein as above, following the same theme of supporting traditionally liberal schools of thought, and squelching conservative perspectives. This is a separate issue from my unblock request - those reasons are outlined in the above section. This section delves into why I should never have been indef blocked in the first place (at least not for a first offense of 3RR, as several other editors have already pointed out). There's no problem with having opinions on WP, so long as the material is NPOV-compliant, but it becomes a problem when that material is being disseminated by an admin who then goes on to indef block editors (almost immediately after his return to the project) for the very same behavior that the aforementioned admin is exhibiting.

MastCell - if you have any diffs of you adding/subtracting material that could be deemed favorable to Republicans/conservatives and/or unfavorable to Democrats/liberals, please feel free to post them here. I honestly couldn't find any in your user contribs, but if it is more balanced and neutral than I've shown here, I will be glad to apologize for misrepresenting your AP2 editing history. But when you referred to the Access Hollywood "October Surprise" tape as "unprecedented in modern american political history," and added your own commentary in your edit summary ("lolwtf?"), indef blocked a user within two hours after the user made an edit clearly unfavorable to the practice of abortion, and have contributed very, very heavily to abortion-related articles (invariably adding pro-choice material to each article), I think you can understand why editors may interpret this pattern as agenda-driven editing, and why there have been protests from the WP community on this page against your issuing AP2-related sanctions. Hidden Tempo (talk) 02:56, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

• @Hidden Tempo: As others have stated, you probably need to submit a case to ArbCom if you want to pursue a complaint against an admin's behavior. Your rationale and evidence seem sufficient for the committee to at least agree to hear the case. See a currently-open case for reference and possible inspiration: Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case#Arthur Rubin and WP:ADMINACCT. Be aware that your own behavior will be scrutinized as well (but reading your unblock request, I guess you're willing to stand up to scrutiny). — JFG 06:02, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

1. The background is disruptive editing which got a serious block and was block evaded. That's not a great start. But the bad editing block was over 8 months ago, and the evasion was dealt with by SPI and reblocks in February - March, about 5 months ago. Judging by the log and this page's history, it seems that HT sat out his blocks in March 2017.

   For example, there have been no blocks since then, until now, for about 5 months. We don't usually base a claim of unsalvageable bad conduct on events 8 months previous and a sock evasion block 5 months before, without a pattern of resumed behavior issues, and no blocks or formal issues since. So this is background but nothing more, until evidence of a current and ongoing problem exists. It's not evidence of any current conduct issue.

2. The sole issue given for this specific block is apparently a text removal on a political article, that may or may not have been an attempt to remove a BLP breaching item. The diffs are probably some of these reverts: . But there's no visible discussion at all about the sourcing and sourcing issue itself, and a plausible concern that a 3rd party source appears in its plain text to have mis-characterized or poorly described a primary source and might be causing a BLP vio as a user sees it, is not something I expect to see assumed bad faith about without some threads showing reasoned dialog met with gaming. Unless there is a clear case it's blatantly gamey, or the latest in a series of attempts to force a section of viable info to be removed, then on the face of it, that is actually a sensible BLP observation, made by a user who's kept fairly clean for quite a while now.

   If it's a game, there will be pages that clearly show it. None are linked, nobody's suggesting they exist, and BLP itself says to reinstate a removal if it's put back with the doubt unresolved. It's even one of the very few formal 3RR exceptions. Where is the discussion whether or not the cites and the characterization they give are BLP-compliant and good enough quality? Where is discussion about possibly seeking better cites or higher quality sources or other ways to resolve the disagreement? Where is the tendentious hanging onto implausible rationales? Where is a suggestion that we can use "Source X says Y" and also add other significant interpretations claimed to be missing or not have due weight, or that we look at the range of ways that other good quality sources report the same text/transcript? Any of these would be a good start at collaborative resolution.

   I also don't see links to any effort to follow basic steps for a content disagreement, or to address a user who has a plausible BLP concern, or to explain over and over why it's not a BLP issue and see the other user doing WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT, or any other link to show people tried and failed on another page. This page shows no cause and no links to good cause elsewhere.

3. Next I look at his talk page. It gets wiped so I check the history in case he hides negative comments. A user - especially with a past bad record - who edits disruptively or tendentiously almost always racks up some level of concerned posts, warnings or ANI notices.

   This user? None since his March block ended. Nobody has posted an expression of concern to his talk page, or discussed him at any formal noticeboard with a "you are being discussed" post. No formal 3RR warnings at all this year. Nothing. Not what I'd expect if he's been tendentious recently and exhausted patience.

4. I'd expect signs of recent tendentiousness that couldn't be dealt with by discussion, or short blocking. And by that I don't mean 2016 or a block that's 5 or 8 months old. The user asked and nobody gave him links, so now I'm asking because nobody uninvolved can comment with certainty if the diffs and links showing the claimed conduct are missing and there's no sign of where to see the behavior that merited protecting the project this way. I'd like to see some diffs or thread links showing the claimed clear tendentious gaming, and recent enough to support the conclusions for this block, please.

   By that I mean June/July 2017, at most May - not 2016 or ancient conduct and block history, and not mere differences of perception about sources between good-faith users. Non stale tendentious conduct for an WP:INDEF block should be easy to show, and a block for tendentiousness can't be reviewed without it by the wider community who lack the history.

   In that regard the block is sloppy - the links needed for WP:UNINVOLVED admins to review should be given if it's not clear. Without it, all we have is a user who has kept clean since his last block and on any reading of WP:AGF has at worst been uncivil at times and expressed a concern that should be handled as a good faith concern about BLP, and taken to a talk page to resolve and if needed seek consensus. Asking for good grounds for the block is reasonable here.

5. As a side, I should say that I don't think the conduct of the user matches that of tendentious "hyper-partisan" edit warriors (as he's been described). The user who one would expect to be angry and hostile, is actually doing a decent job of keeping balance all things considered. he's accepting hints about his tone and how it's perceived. He's asking the same things I would ask - diffs of the claimed conduct and discussion of the issue he has raised, if not already addressed elsewhere. The blocking admin has not provided those diffs or links, making it impossible for uninvolved admins to know if they exist, what they show, or other background. The thread seems to revolve around past bad conduct and it being evidence of further tendentious to raise issues that a blocked user can reasonably raise even if not gaming, and for which they can and should expect a good answer. He's asked for diffs and expressed concerns, he hasn't been given any. I'm not surprised he's not happy, because that's not how we do it.

   Also, while "brown-assing" isn't unknown among gamers, the points I've raised to HT he has replied as someone might who takes them seriously. No evasive words. For example, I mentioned in email that his "sharp" replies and attempted humor can easily come over as uncivil or condescending. Today I find he has updated his comment to address the concern, to clarify his words, and to explain his intent. I didn't ask him to, and gave him to understand that I wasn't going to make any decision on the block myself. Not a big thing, but not how a tendentious user - even a clever one - usually acts.

6. There's a claim that "75% of this unblock request is dedicated to attacking me"... Mast Cell, you've been around for ages. I think this doesn't need such a reaction. My first impression wasn't that he's just on a personal attack spree, although of course a chunk of his upset relates to you and some posts are strongly worded. But not rabid. He should tone it down and I hope he will. He makes a point that you have a history (he says) of editing the topic area if not this exact page. You've described him in very strong terms as someone who is unsalvageable and fit only for an edit warrior ban, and have indef blocked him. Whatever the reality, I can see why that might make a user fear they aren't going to be fairly heard, whatever the issues might be, and perhaps that's fueling the issue.

   If so, historically it's better to let it cool down. Perhaps you might consider letting an different admin (by which I don't mean me!) handle the block/unblock so that it's very transparent that there is no involvement issue playing a part? That doesn't mean anything's wrong. I've dropped being the admin on a case if the user seemed to genuinely feel concern about a neutral review and a chance that some good-faith editors might also be bothered by it, just to ensure it's totally transparent. So can anyone. It's sometimes best and doesn't show anything wrong. If the block is good, others will see and agree it, and so will consensus. If it helps in your view, you can pass the matter to another uninvolved admin, and then his not-entirely-unreasonable concern about involvement might also evaporate.

7. This isn't about taking sides. There is plenty of evidence of poor conduct by HT - but it's mainly attacks and tone that produces "heat" not "light", rather than dispute resolution.

   For example, in February HT snarkily attacked the user who reported him to SPI and engaged in personal attacks and "look how you act as well" instead of the actual matter of his ignoring/evading the restriction (under whatever account). The Steve Miller talk page section shows disturbing conduct that is similar to gamers, and I suspect that thread and failure to handle it properly led us here. I strongly suggest that HT figures out a different way to interact or he *will* rapidly hit blocks and long term bans from it if he continues to edit. HT - you are articulate and clear minded. That kind of inflammatory style needs to go now and never be seen again. If there's a dispute like that, seek wider views and WP:DR; don't slog it out or attack people like that again (even if you think it's deserved or obvious bias). Yes it's slower but it's what you need to do.

   The problem with the Steve Miller thread I have linked, is that there isn't actually any clear consensus seeking, by anyone on the BLP issue itself - and BLP is a clear 3RR exemption until a discussion has happened. So we're in the dark right now whether the BLP claim is (a) valid, (b) blatantly a game, or (c) something that could be agreed or disagreed legitimately by different users, requiring consensus.

   HT also has a pattern of "sharp replies" which could be more civil, for example a tone that can come over as condescending, and some conduct diffs that don't all seem to show the inappropriate behavior described. But that second post also shows direct constructive responses rather than flaming/gaming when accused, and his reply to Black Kite is to-the-point and based on diffs, and nobody's put diffs down to show he's mis-describing anything in it. So we don't yet know what uninvolved users might feel about the issue itself.

   What this is about is explaining why I feel uneasy about the block right now, I feel I cannot see the behavior claimed, and I would like the diffs showing recent clear examples of the claimed conduct supporting the block. It will probably also help us all to get past this stage of just writing heated posts to each other.

I feel at this point, we really need these things, to discuss HT in a meaningful way:

• Recent, non-stale diffs/links clearly showing the stated *ongoing pattern* of behavior since his last block a few months ago, which looks tendentious and seems to show that HT is in reality probably a clever or subtle edit warrior (meaning, not just someone with a strong view or snarky, but actually WP:NOTHERE to write an encyclopedia). An indef block without good cause just doesn't stand up without that, and uninvolved community members will need links to the conduct to discuss any block or appeal. I'm mainly looking for conduct in June/July (or since his March 2017 unblock at worst), but I'll take whatever shows a pattern of recent conduct that is of real concern.

• Confirmation which posts actually gave rise to this block and whether there has been any related discussion elsewhere, especially any consensus ignored by HT (and any other problem reverts recently)

• Actual balanced discussion and consensus about the possible BLP concern, or whether ways exist to find a consensus improvement.

• Whether or not HT's previous conduct since being unblocked on 17 March has been the explicit subject of an admin or noticeboard discussion (or indeed any broad discussion by the community), and either links if so or some comment on it, if not. (He was very active for about 3 months between early May and this incident, the pages are greatly watched, and he was a recently unblocked editor/sock user, so we'd expect any clever or gaming conduct to get much quicker handling)

Then we can see what conduct we're looking at, and maybe reach a consensus on it.

Unfortunately I find it hard to believe Hidden Tempo is capable of editing American politics constructively. His entire history shows it, and not least his wikilawyering self-justification and attacks on MastCell following the current indefinite block (his second indefinite block). Yet he can presumably edit with propriety in other areas, for example film and sports, as he did during the earlier topic ban.

Hidden Tempo, if you wish, I will convert the block to an indefinite topic ban from post-1932 American politics, with an appeal on WP:AE WP:ANI or WP:AN allowed no sooner than a year from now. (Your appeals are labor-intensive for the community and any involved admins, and that's part of the reason I propose you wait a full year. Another part is that I want you to have plenty of time to show that you can edit constructively and without evasion attempts.) I invite you to edit film articles and the like in the meantime. There are also the sister projects, which you are free to edit. With constructive editing in some/any of these, an appeal will be more likely to be viewed favorably. If you should evade the topic ban through a sock account or an IP (I can see from this exchange that you were also using an IP, for some very aggressive Am Pol editing, during your previous topic ban), I will block you indefinitely and ask the community for a permanent site ban. Do you accept this conversion of the block to a topic ban? Please think about it — don't reply hastily. Bishonen | talk 10:26, 29 August 2017 (UTC). Added comment: I'll add a note here, per the discussion below; my offer to convert the block to a topic ban will expire two weeks from now. Bishonen | talk 23:42, 31 August 2017 (UTC).

• Bish, I appreciate your patience and your generosity. Hidden Tempo, I think this is a good offer. Drmies (talk) 12:02, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

• I second this idea. HT, I hope you consider this seriously. RickinBaltimore (talk) 12:59, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

• I think HT has previously rejected the idea of this proposal in UTRS appeal #18968, but indicated willingness to accept if that is the only choice. Alex Shih 13:38, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

• This seems a very reasonable path forward to me. A year is not that bad in the long run, and it would allow HT to contribute constructively outside of the problem area. ~Awilley (talk) 16:34, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

• Four days ago FT2 took what must have been significant time to investigate Hidden Tempo's contributions. He found the evidence of disruption since Hidden Tempo's topic-ban expiration wasn't sufficient to justify a block. FT2 requested additional evidence of disruption (diffs) from the blocking administrator; we are still waiting for that. A number of administrators have since commented; unfortunately none of those comments included the diffs FT2 requested.
• Hidden Tempo's been blocked for 3 weeks; another few days or a week won't make a difference, so there's no reason we can't be diligent. I think it's a serious mistake to discuss any reduction in Hidden Tempo's block unless we can review the evidence; a topic ban may be too harsh or not harsh enough, we can't know without a review. If some don't have the time to invest I'm sure others will. The most important thing is that we reach an informed conclusion. D.Creish (talk) 18:48, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

• If admins agree that the indef block was a disproportionate sanction, there are two ways to reduce it: either make it shorter or restrict it to a TBAN. Bishonen's proposal appears to "do a bit of both", which doesn't solve the underlying question. Either HT's general behaviour is deemed unacceptable and he should not be allowed to roam free anywhere, or he is only considered disruptive in American Politics and a TBAN applies best. With the evidence available, I don't see HT's editing as being outside of the mean standard of conduct in the AP topic specifically: while clearly opinionated (aren't we all?) he has been rather mild-mannered, encouraging discussion, following process and willing to concede when consensus is against him.

If HT deserves an indef TBAN with a 1-year moratorium in AP, then the same sanction may be readily applied to a few dozen regular editors on both sides of the political spectrum. I would certainly be one of the first to fall, as being regularly aspersed with accusations of bias and process violations, despite my recently-awarded Barnstar of Diplomacy and having several people encourage me to apply for admin rights (FWIW I'm not interested).

Conversely, if the problematic issues are confined to the recent heated exchange on the Miller article, then a short block is all that's needed, probably a month or "time served". Contrary to MastCell's reasoning, I would read HT's history of sanctions as a demonstration that he has been willing to learn from his mistakes, and has grown as a Wikipedian. A year of purgatory in one of his key areas of editing competence sounds uselessly punitive, and may have a chilling effect on other valuable editors. — JFG 20:33, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

@JFG: I don't know you that well but I've seen you around enough to know that whatever problems you might have in the politics area aren't on the same scale as HT. For one, you don't seem to treat it as a battleground, and I don't regularly see you accusing people of bias right and left. Your approach is more collaborative in my limited experience. Granted I'm judging HT largely by what I've seen on this talk page. (Sampling bias?)~Awilley (talk) 04:49, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

@Awilley: I think JFG is being humble by throwing themselves in with most editors. In my experience, JFG is one of the few regular editors I interact with in American politics articles who seems genuinely interested in consensus and collaboration with people they disagree with. They're not at all representative of editors in that subject area. But on the other hand, given how WP:AE cases have tended to shake out, it wouldn't surprise me at all to see an editor of JFG's standard getting slapped with serious sanctions, as long as they were perceived to be on the "wrong side." -Thucydides411 (talk) 06:12, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

• Hidden Tempo, I hope you seriously consider accepting this offer. I do believe that you can be a positive contributor to the project as at times you have demonstrated this. I do agree with FT2 in that you tend to let your frustration get the best of you which ends up causing you problems. A number of well respected Admins such as Awilley, Alex Shih, FT2 and Drmies have offered you some very helpful advice and I hope you can take it to heart. Best of Luck, CBS527 12:13, 30 August 2017 (UTC)
• I agree with JFG, a topic ban does nothing to resolve the fact that the indefinite block continues to go unjustified. Unless the block can be justified, with diffs demonstrating that Hidden Tempo engaged in "repeated instances" of "tendentious, hyper-partisan, agenda-driven disruptive editing edit-warring" since their prior blocks and topic ban, it should be removed. If the topic ban is on the same basis as the indefinite block it requires the same evidence. If the the topic ban is a consequence of the one instance of edit-warring along with Hidden Tempo's history, it would be harsh, but at least it would have a provided reason with clear evidence supporting it. Cjhard (talk) 12:34, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

• The one thing that strikes me, reading through this lengthy thread, is that Hidden Tempo's editing behavior does not appear to be unusual for the American Politics topic area. As JFG said, if Hidden Tempo deserves an indefinite block or a topic ban, then there are literally dozens of highly active editors in American Politics who deserve the exact same sanction.

I anticipate that the reaction to this observation will be along the lines of, "Pointing the finger at others doesn't dismiss HT's behavior." However, when an entire topic area is filled with contentious editors, but the sanctions are handed out overwhelmingly against one "side," then the project has a problem. Let's not kid ourselves - we know that politically, Misplaced Pages editors tend, on the whole, strongly in a certain direction. Allowing sanctions to be handed out in a sloppy or arbitrary manner is just asking for those political leanings to turn into effective policy, and it will be effectively impossible for editors who don't share the same political beliefs as the majority here to edit American-politics-related articles. I already think we're approaching that situation.

There needs to be greater oversight in administrator actions, especially when those admins are involved in editing the subject area. If there isn't, the problem of partisan sanctions will just continue to get worse, and it will lead to an ever more ideologically unified Misplaced Pages editing corps. MastCell still hasn't addressed the central point, which is the lack of evidence provided to support the indefinite block. If there are diffs that show HT's editing is beyond the pale for American politics, then the block should be upheld. If the diffs just show HT editing in a similarly contentious manner to everyone else, then one of two things should happen: either the block should be lifted, or the same standard should be applied uniformly to all editors. -Thucydides411 (talk) 18:41, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

I recognize the narrative that you're trying to create: that HT's behavior and track record are commonplace among politics editors, and that the sanctions are therefore disproportionate. I think that narrative is false, but maybe I'm wrong, as I'm hardly omniscient. Are there other editors who have BLP blocks, a topic ban, a block for ban evasion, and a near-immediate return to disruptive behavior in the topic area (e.g. edit-warring) upon ban expiration? If so, please point them out. MastCell  00:02, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

To repeat: Hidden Tempo's WP:BLP block was, in fact, for calling Hillary Clinton's trustworthiness poll numbers "feeble." Just ask the blocking admin, Boing! said Zebedee. In my view, that "precedent" should be discarded. It only proves Thucydides411's point.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 00:36, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

@MastCell: My central point is that sanctions are handed out overwhelmingly to one side, while disruptive editing is found in similar levels on both sides. The number of sanctions someone has received isn't what's important, but rather the history of their behavior. Hidden Tempo has racked up a number of sanctions, but just go down the list of the most active editors in American politics, and I don't think you'll find HT's actual editing behavior is particularly unusual. I don't want to point the finger at specific editors, but any look through one of the more contentious American-politics-related article talk pages will reveal all sorts of POV warring and acrimony by highly active editors. -Thucydides411 (talk) 00:51, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

I'm sorry; I don't think you really answered my question. You're implying that there are other active editors in the topic area with records of disruption similar to HT's (topic ban, sockpuppetry, edit-warring, etc), but who have been treated more leniently. Could you help me identify them? Otherwise, it might be worth retiring this narrative if it doesn't stand up to basic scrutiny. MastCell  01:17, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

@MastCell: I told you explicitly that I'm not here to point the finger at other editors. I'm not lodging a request for anyone else to be banned, so I'm not naming specific editors. If your point is that you won't believe that systemic bias exists in Misplaced Pages unless I accuse a specific editor, then I'm afraid I can't help you. Just go look through the talk page archives of Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections, and you'll see plenty of bad behavior on all sides. Compare that to the sanctions log, and you'll see what I mean about systemic bias. It's become blindingly obvious over the past year, but if you're in the majority that's unaffected by it, I can imagine you wouldn't notice it. -Thucydides411 (talk) 06:19, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

Neither does the narrative of Hidden Tempo engaging in "repeated instances" of "tendentious, hyper-partisan, agenda-driven disruptive editing edit-warring" since their prior blocks and topic ban, which is why we're all here. You've been asked for diffs as evidence of more than that one instance of edit-warring. Do you have them? Cjhard (talk) 01:24, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

This is another example of a false or misleading narrative, in my view. I think I was very clear, above, about the rationale for the block. HT's history on Misplaced Pages shows a pattern of tendentious, hyper-partisan, agenda-driven disruptive editing. Examples include the violations of WP:BLP which led to his first block; the further disruption which led to his topic ban; his deceptive sockpuppetry to evade his ban and to continue his combative editing on political topics; and, finally, the edit-warring which led to the current block. All of these are supported by evidence in my previous comments and/or acknowledged by HT; claiming otherwise harms your credibility. This combination of behaviors has historically been more than sufficient to justify an indefinite block.

I'm a little bemused by the defenses offered here. One is that HT is "no worse" than many others in the topic area (I think this is demonstrably false, and have yet to be corrected; and in any case, hardly a ringing endorsement). Another stems from your misreading of the block rationale; the "repeated instances" of misbehavior encompass HT's disciplinary history as a whole. If your argument is that the "only" thing he's done wrong since his topic ban expired is to edit-war, then... well, that's not a very strong argument. A third line of defense is really more of a line of attack, against me as the blocking admin. What these defenses have in common is that they shift blame from HT and seek to excuse, ignore, or normalize his behavior. I don't see that as doing him any favors.

Here's what I see when I look at HT's track record: the only time that he hasn't been documented disrupting the political topic area is when he was topic-banned (and even then, his first instinct was to sock to evade the ban and make more trouble; I hadn't seen the comments he posted as an IP during his ban until Bishonen linked them above, but they certainly fit the pattern). He went back to aggressive edit-warring nearly immediately after his topic-ban expired, indicating that he was biding his time rather than altering his approach. There's nothing in HT's track record to make one hopeful that anything will change in 6 months, or a year. Of course, anything is possible. On the other hand, HT has pretty much zero insight into the ways in which his behavior was problematic, and he's being encouraged by a group of enablers here. In the end, it's not my call, but I do think it's important to push back against some of the narratives that are being constructed here—which are really not doing HT any favors in the long run. MastCell  01:47, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

• Bishonen's proposal is a sound one. One possible slight variation might be, exactly what Bishonen has suggested, but allowing HT to request a review of the restriction at ANI, not less than (4? 6? 8?) months from now. This does exactly as Bishonen says, but reassures HT that he/she won't be seen as "gaming" if he/she wishes a review after several months, on the basis of considerable further track record. It also ensures a minimum duration which supports the points Bishonen makes.

  This might be a workable "middle of the road" that honors the concerns of users who feel there are concerns about the user's editing and a considerable break would help, and also the concerns of users who feel the issue is down to the block:

  (1) It gets HT back to editing quickly; (2) It protects the topic area for no less than 4-8 months and, unless ANI is convinced, for the full year. (3) It avoids everyone being diverted from editing and being dragged through debates/appeals. (4) Bishonen's comment about a sizeable break from the topic area is very sensibly thought out, whether it's for several months or a year, and will probably benefit HT long term. (5) It puts the topic restriction squarely in HT's hands to request a review and the community's hands to do that review. (6) ANI is a good place for uninvolved review which should reassure HT. (7) It has a chance of gaining consensus if Bishonen's original idea doesn't. Given the range of comments, to me this seems a fair reflection that might be workable on both views, as a possible modification to Bishonen's original and sensible proposal. FT2  22:55, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

• @FT2: it's precisely because I'm concerned about "everyone being diverted from editing and being dragged through debates/appeals", as you yourself put it, that I want at least a year to pass before the diversion and the dragging. Have you studied HT's many-pronged appeals of this current block on this page, or his appeal of the T-ban I originally placed in December 2016? (I recommend you to click on the collapse box with a lot of the original text the AE admins made HT remove — it doesn't work right, being a collapse box inside a collapse box, but you can probably see it — if not, this is the most striking bit.) During and after that topic ban, it became clear that six months wasn't enough for him to change his ways; and I don't think "4 — 8 months" will be enough either. You think he can change; I hope you're right; but until I've seen any signs of it, it seems reasonable to assume any upcoming appeal of his will be as divisive and energy-sapping for everyone involved as his appeals have been before.

Anyway, my proposal comes as a package. I didn't put it here to "gain consensus", but for HT to accept or reject. Or for that matter for him to leave hanging while waiting for another admin to formally answer the unblock request; that's fine by me as well, though I'd put a time limit on it; let's say my offer expires two weeks from today. FT2, when you suggest your version "has a chance of gaining consensus", unlike mine, I assume you're not talking about consensus here, on this page..? The commentary here is conditioned by this being Hidden Tempo's talkpage, where he rules. The people who struggle to contain his disruption in the Am Pol area have been consistently made unwelcome on this page for a long time, indeed many have been "banned" from it; if they should nevertheless take the time to comment on the block here, HT blanks it promptly and opprobriously. (This only yesterday.) If you want to see what people who're not screened by HT think about it, could you please take a block review and/or my and/or your own proposal, to AN or ANI for community review? Because community review is not what we see above. And you say above you're not interested in making any formal block decision, which I think is wise.

About your change to ANI as the venue for his ban appeal, I can't say I care. He can appeal at any board he likes AFAIC. Perhaps indeed preferably not at AE, since the block wasn't an AE action, and my commute of it to a topic ban wouldn't be an AE action either.

PS. FT2, your phrasing implies some confusion, probably accidentally, when you write that your modified proposal would "protect the topic area for no less than 4-8 months and, unless ANI is convinced, for the full year." My italics. That sounds like you'd expect the ban to run for one year and then expire no matter whether an appeal is successful or not? That wasn't it. I propose an indefinite ban, with an appeal allowed in no less than one year. I hope HT understood that. If whatever board he takes it to isn't convinced, he'll stay topic banned. Bishonen | talk 11:09, 31 August 2017 (UTC).

@Bishonen - You're right. I misread the "indef TBAN + appeal in no less than a year", for which I apologize; the point I picked up on was TBAN for at least a year, and no appeal for at least a year. I had reservations for a couple of reasons. See what you reckon though. (I'm not planning to reply arguing any comments, if it's read and not agreed).

My reasons for unease are - * 12 months till first appeal might discourage if he's trying to do right. We would block without appeal that long for serious, unrepentant, current warriors, and I'm not sure that's a fair assessment of HT unless he does more wrong. * By the same logic if his conduct is good after a shorter time perhaps it will be fair/incentivize to at least allow a lesser appeal limit, although not short. * I have real reservations that the assessment of his conduct might be based primarily on very stale evidence that's been superseded by several continual months of decent conduct since unblock (March 17) and end of TBAN (July 2), and missed what seems to be a real change since March, which is quite a while back. In that time there were no notices, blocks, warnings, or discussion of him. His return from TBAN on 2 July wasn't marked with renewal of old conduct, and the only issues even now are civility (which he seems to be trying to take on board) and one very specific BLP issue (where he may well have had complete good faith). There's apparently been no EW/TE at all. * I did see that you have a concern that 6 months TBAN hasn't helped, which I'm unsure about, but you're more familiar than I am with it all.

Anyhow that was the basis of my lingering unease. I doubt I have anything of value to add to that comment, and take for granted that both old and new conduct have been taken into account in your view, so I'll defer to your view. FT2  22:44, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

@Bishonen - thank you for this offer. I have to admit that I was not exactly expecting that my best (and only) offer so far would be coming from you, given our less than amicable history and my less than polite jabs I have taken at you in the past. I do appreciate you taking the time to come to my talk page and presenting a possible solution. However, I don't believe an indefinite AP2 ban without the ability to appeal is just, proportionate, or logical given the circumstances. I understand that requests/appeals can be labor-intensive, but I view it as highly unusual and confusing why my blocking admin is not required to offer supporting diffs, even after being repeatedly asked. MastCell came back from his 2-month hiatus, promptly indef blocked me after ~10 min review of my editing/typing the notice at ANI, and thus likely had no time to gather any diffs. MC has had nearly a month now, yet still, none of us have seen any diffs.

I was disappointed in your statement that my "entire history" shows I am incapable of editing AP2 areas constructively, given this, this, this and this, just a very small sample of edits made shortly before this indef and presented in my unblock request. Without being given any diffs that brought you to that conclusion, I and others have no way to examine the recent edits to which you are referring. Additionally, in my unblock request I explicitly stated that my goal is not to wikilawyer in my UBR, and indeed I did not (per WP:WL). I used WP:GAB and individually addressed each concern of the blocking admin, gave reasons why another 3RR would not reoccur (even to remove BLPVIO material), and made my case as to why I am, and can continue to be, a productive member of the community.

You stated that I can presumably edit with propriety in other topic areas. If you do in fact disagree with MastCell on this point, and noting that MastCell has still not provided a single diff to illustrate my "repeated disruptive, tendentious, and agenda-driven editing," I feel that I should be unblocked regardless of my answer to your offer. My AP2 productivity is a separate issue that should be revisited after the unblock, and any TBAN could then be imposed by you or another admin should he or she feel it appropriate. If an indefinite block is warranted due to my incapability to edit articles related to film, sports, and other areas, I believe I should be given diffs to support the continued implementation of the block. Hidden Tempo (talk) 02:04, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

OK, thanks for responding. Just to make sure I've got it: is that a "No, thank you" to my offer? Bishonen | talk 07:06, 7 September 2017 (UTC).

• Hi again. I think you indicated above that you don't accept my proposal, but I'm not sure, so I'll just remind you that I set the proposal to expire after two weeks. That means it'll expire tomorrow, so in case you're still thinking about accepting it, please make up your mind and post accordingly, tomorrow at the latest. If you have a specific reason for wanting to wait longer, please say so. Bishonen | talk 10:10, 13 September 2017 (UTC).

Hi - thanks for the reminder and the opportunity to ask for an extension. I'm inclined to decline this deal, as I cannot agree to cease "tendentious, hyper-partisan, agenda-driven disruptive editing" without any evidence/diffs of this aforementioned behavior. The indef block can't be a result of my AP2 editing alone (else I would only have been indef t-banned), so I must have exhibited this problematic editing in other areas. So how can I be trusted to edit film/sports/etc. articles productively if I have no idea what I've done wrong in those areas? It's been over a month, and MastCell never provided any diffs showing this behavior, despite repeated requests from several editors and an admin (FT2). I am not comfortable with accepting a conditional unblock/T-BAN with the understanding that I am not entitled to know which edits landed me here in the first place, and therefore the nature of edits from which I must abstain once unblocked. Doesn't seem like a terribly tenable solution. If my unblock remains unreviewed by your deadline, I would like to file an appeal at ArbCom (if I am entitled) to remove the block. Thanks again. Hidden Tempo (talk) 01:47, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) with Floquenbeam. I'm afraid you can't appeal to ArbCom; they'd reject it. See : one of these three conditions has to apply:

• The block is an Oversight block or CheckUser block
• The reasons for the block or information related to your appeal is unsuitable for public discussion
• You have been blocked or banned by the Arbitration Committee or by an Arbitration Enforcement decision.

I don't see that there's anything unsuitable for public discussion, and the block isn't an Arbitration Enforcement block, it's a regular indef block. Your argument for using UTRS, that you "did not want to publicly air an admin's dirty laundry and be viewed as disruptive/being uncivil toward an admin", didn't cut any ice with UTRS, and it won't with ArbCom either. On the contrary, criticism of an admin should be public, unless there's something very personal involved, which is not the case.

I'm sorry your unblock request still, after a month, hasn't been formally reviewed. I suppose the amount of discussion above scares off admins, and perhaps a fear of themselves being dragged into endless discussion. Mind you, I doubt you'd get any joy if it was reviewed. But it's a loose end, certainly. Bishonen | talk 13:00, 14 September 2017 (UTC).

Responded below to Floquenbeam. I want to make it really clear here that the primary reason for the length of this discussion and complaints about the hassle of responding to unblock requests is the staunch refusal of MastCell to provide diffs proving that the behavior in question has in fact taken place. Without diffs, discussion wanders into other territories with varying degrees of relevancy. If MastCell would simply provide the diffs of "tendentious, hyper-partisan, agenda-driven disruptive editing," we could all take a look and see what he sees (within the 10 minute period that he took to review my edits), and then have a frame of reference to determine whether or not HT is able to productively edit the encyclopedia. But MastCell didn't want to go down that road. Instead, he finds it more appropriate to drop a final "people like HT are bad, people like me are good" remark on my talk page, and then leave his diff-less block in place without ever answering why he refuses to provide the diffs. This whole thing could have been taken care of within a day - we would simply ask for diffs showing "tendentious, hyper-partisan, agenda-driven disruptive editing," he wouldn't provide any (since they don't exist), and the block would need to be immediately lifted due to the absence of evidence. But instead, we get obfuscation, poisoning the well, and non-sequiturs (see repeated references to the 7-month old SPI as justification for the "tendentious, hyper-partisan, agenda-driven disruptive editing,") in the place of diffs, and as such are left with walls and walls of text trying to justify the indef through other means. And yet, no admin except FT2 and multiple regular editors find the absence of diffs to be the slightest bit out of the ordinary. That's why we have this endless discussion. Hidden Tempo (talk) 17:38, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

Strange that this unblock request has taken so long; I'm guessing that many admins have reviewed it (or a portion of it), decided not to unblock, but are hesitant to decline because of the inevitable timesink that would follow.

I won't decline this, because my admiration for Bish and MC is well known. I can be unbiased, but I wouldn't look unbiased. But I do want to cut thru the millions of bytes above, and provide a simple perspective that a reviewing admin might find useful.

HT was topic banned from politics earlier this year, and created a sockpuppet to continue editing in the politics area, and then, when caught, pretended not to know this was wrong. It is simply not possible that he didn't know that was wrong; the reviewing admin (when they show up) should do a reality check for a minute, and try to imagine how someone could possibly misunderstand to such an extent; that we've blocked your account from editing a subject for doing disruptive things, but it's ok to continue editing the subject if you just create a new account. It is not possible; that's not obscure WP policy, it is common sense. Basic common sense.

So, we've established not only that HT is a POV-pusher (original block and topic ban), we've established that he lies about stuff. It is invalid to say "hey, I did my time for the sockpuppet thing, you can't use it as justification anymore". It is part of a pattern of behavior. I'm unclear why we would ever want someone like that back in the politics area - we seem to already have our quota of dishonest POV pushers - but WP loves second chances, and he was unblocked, with a limited duration topic ban. HT was thus already on their final chance. It is not necessary to establish a new pattern of behavior after the unblock; the pattern was already established, and the last episode of gamesmanship was the last straw.

FYI, HT, take this with however much salt you want, but I think Bish's indef topic ban is the best offer you're going to get, and I'm a little surprised she offered. If I were you, I'd take it. Sooner or later, a no-nonsense admin who doesn't believe in multiple "last chances" is going to notice this has been languishing in CAT:UNBLOCK for a while, decline it, remove talk page access to stop the timesink, and move on. I'm not positive what the policy pages say, but I've been around a while, and I'm fairly confident ArbCom does not get involved in "normal" block appeals; if this was an AE block or an ArbCom/community ban, they would, but I don't think I've seen them take an appeal of a run of the mill disruptive editor block.

If not, any reviewing admin should keep in mind that, although they are required to explain their block, they are not required to talk to you endlessly about it. I suggest the next uninvolved admin who peeks at this page just read it all once, do whatever they think is right, explain it briefly, and move on. --Floquenbeam (talk) 12:50, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

I think your assessment is mostly correct regarding the length of time my unblock request has been active without review - everybody wants to go the party, but nobody wants to clean up. Formally denying an appeal would likely require diffs of "tendentious, hyper-partisan, agenda-driven disruptive editing" in AP2 as well as other areas. Since such diffs do not exist, especially in non-AP2 articles, this poses a dilemma for a potential declining admin. I also suspect that your reluctance to dissent from highly influential and powerful admin heavyweights like Bishonen and MastCell is a common sentiment in the admin community. Still though, the UBR really should have been reviewed by now. Just a few corrections should any reviewing admin see Floquenbeam's aspersions and make the mistake of believing them to be true:

• "created a sockpuppet to continue editing in the politics area, and then, when caught, pretended not to know this was wrong" I created a sockpuppet and made a combined 10 remarks on two talk pages, never editing any articles. I admitted to wrongdoing immediately after being reported: One and only sock offense, which has no relevance to the diff-less block of "tendentious, hyper-partisan, agenda-driven disruptive editing" in AP2 or other areas.
• "we've established that he lies about stuff" No diffs for this aspersion, but I'm a genuine guy - ask me anything, and I shall respond with the truth. And I, for one, have no problem providing diffs (see my UBR).
• "I'm unclear why we would ever want someone like that back in the politics area" My sanction is an indef block, not a topic ban. That diff-less sentiment about my AP2 editing isn't relevant to this sanction.

Unfortunately, I think you may be correct about Bishonen's offer being the best I'm going to get. If that has more to do with the fact that the diff-less block is appropriate and just, or has more to do with this is a decision for a reviewing admin. However, I am of the understanding that in cases of possible administrator misconduct and inappropriate use of admin tools, ArbCom is willing to review the case. I feel that returning from a 2 month vacation to indef block a user after ~10 mins of contrib review, refusing to provide diffs showing the alleged behavior after multiple requests, and then sandwiching the diff-less block for "partisan, agenda-driven editing" in between chunks of edits consistent with the admin's strict adherence to editing in accordance with liberal/anti-conservative sentiments is more than qualifying. Pinging Ks0stm to ask for clarification on this, as I've already bothered Drmies and Doug Weller enough with this. Hidden Tempo (talk) 16:16, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

• If no individual admin wants to take this on, perhaps refer to WP:AN and let the community decide? Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 16:54, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
  • We might could set a record for length. Drmies (talk) 17:32, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
    • We might could indeed ;-) Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 17:48, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
      • Just a quick comment - if this suggestion comes to fruition, why not just offer three options and limit statements to a simple "Support #(option)" without explanation/elaboration. A short (300 words perhaps) statement from myself (including a link to my UBR), a short statement from MastCell (in which he would be required to provide diffs of the "tendentious, hyper-partisan, agenda-driven disruptive editing"), and then three simple options presented: 1) Unblock 2) Unblock with indef topic ban 3) Leave block in place. Involved editors/admins are excluded from the process. This is something that I would be on board with. Hidden Tempo (talk) 18:22, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
        • Why not? Because nobody has the authority to restrict the community in that way - the community *is* the authority. If it's thrown over to the community, it becomes totally open to all suggestions. Any editor taking part would have the right to propose any alternative they wish and support any solution they wish, and the result of the community discussion would be decided by WP:Consensus. Your being on board with it is absolutely not required. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 18:35, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
          • The reason I suggested limiting responses to a simple number is based off of Drmies' suggestion. If length is a concern, why open a forum to inevitable mission creep, lengthy replies, back and forth proposals, counter-proposals, and the likely degeneration into personal attacks/aspersions? I'm well-aware that my approval is not needed for the consensus-gathering process - was just offering my input, since I am of course the primary stakeholder. This UBR has been open much longer than it had to be already. If we had just gotten the diffs, or an admission that no such diffs exist, this would have been resolved long ago. Hidden Tempo (talk) 19:38, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
            • My view is that if any admins felt like opening themselves to the timesink of pettifoggery that would inevitably result, your unblock request would have been declined long ago. But that's just my take. Ho hum. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 19:45, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
              • There's another theory: the request hasn't been denied because it's hard to justify an indefinite ban based on a single instance of edit-warring by a user with a problematic history and months of good behaviour. I don't think that's petty, I think it's a major indictment. I'd strongly endorse a discussion on WP:ANI to expose this to wider community scrutiny. Yes, it will be a messy conversation, but at least it will resolve the question of whether this is block was acceptable in its scope, length, or existence. Cjhard (talk) 11:52, 15 September 2017 (UTC)
• Sorry, but this all sounds like something I want nothing to do with unless I have to. Ks0stm   If you reply here, please ping me by using {{re|Ks0stm}} in your reply.  06:55, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

I'm sure you already know this, HT, but just so everybody who might want to comment here is aware: my offer to convert the indefinite block to a topic ban from post-1932 American politics is past its deadline and is no longer on the table. I withdraw it. It has ceased to be. Bishonen | talk 09:53, 15 September 2017 (UTC).

As I suggested above, I have now put the unblock request on hold and have turned it over to the community at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard#Unblock request at User talk:Hidden Tempo to decide. I think that's the only realistic option at this point. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 12:57, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for taking action on this, Boing! said Zebedee. Since I am not permitted to edit that board, should I reply here to potential aspersions, or in case anything is said that is inaccurate? Also, am I permitted to ping editors with whom I have had interaction with, or would that be considered canvassing? There are a number of editors who rallied to my defense through email who may not be watching this page or the AN board. Hidden Tempo (talk) 13:22, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

If you want to say anything in that discussion, you can post it here and ask for it to be copied across - if I'm around at the time I'll be happy to do it, and if not I'm sure someone else will. As for the pinging, not really sure, as canvassing can be a tricky subject - I'd prefer to leave that for others to comment. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 13:33, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

I would advise you not to respond to any points raised during the discussion. Sometimes it is better to just stay silent. Mr Ernie (talk) 15:09, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

I think that's terrible advice, for multiple reasons. ―Mandruss ☎ 15:20, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

User:Mandruss for whatever it's worth, my advice appears to have been ignored. I should have said I would advise you not to respond to all of the points raised during the discussion. Certainly if something was glaringly false there should be a response. Mr Ernie (talk) 15:47, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

Oh I agree with that. BLUDGEON is never a good idea. HT, I wonder about completeness of the record if your comments below are not copied to the AN thread. We could link from there to here, but will that section be on this page forever? ―Mandruss ☎ 15:50, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

I don't plan on responding to each unfavorable vote, only the votes that contain notably false accusations, aspersions, and a gross mischaracterization of events. For whatever reason, a few admins continue to perpetuate the same falsehoods ("HT is a known POV-pusher," "HT's entire editing history shows he cannot edit productively," etc.) without diffs. If a user views these falsehoods without checking their veracity, the user could make the mistake of thinking they are true. Regarding the below section, Boing! said he may do me the favor of copying my responses to the AN thread, but I would never ask someone to commit themselves to that kind of work. Hopefully enough potential "block support" votes will be changed to "unblock support" votes after viewing the truth and absence of diffs from the blocking administrator. Hidden Tempo (talk) 16:05, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

You haven't addressed my concern about completeness of record. I'm not "committing" to anything, but I'll do some copying. For future comments it would help me if you treated it like an edit request, e.g. "Insert after xyz". ―Mandruss ☎ 16:17, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

Thank you very much for volunteering to assist me in the process, Mandruss. It is highly appreciated, and thank you for already taking the time to copy a few of my comments over to AN. I'm not sure if I exactly understand your question about the record completeness. I am more than happy to leave that section on my talk page for the duration of the AN report if that's what you're asking. Will it break the links if I later archive/delete the section? Hidden Tempo (talk) 16:30, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

Yes, it will break the links, which is the problem. If all comments are copied, it's not a problem. @Boing! said Zebedee: - We seem to have crossed wires and two of the comments now appear twice at AN. I'll let you sort that as you see fit, but I don't know why HT's comments should be the only ones forced out of context and that would seem to be a slight handicap. ―Mandruss ☎ 16:34, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

Yes, I hadn't spotted that you were copying them - I've reverted my copy. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 16:36, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

• I'm happy to abide by whatever you and Boing! recommend is best. Perhaps after the AN discussion is over, someone can do a full copy of the section to the AN board. Hidden Tempo (talk) 16:56, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

The three comments to date have been copied individually, and I don't see why that can't continue until we're done. So I don't understand why there would be a need to then copy the whole section. As I said, it will help if you are specific about where to insert each comment; otherwise we are forced to make decisions that aren't ours to make. There will be some delay if nobody is around to do a copy. ―Mandruss ☎ 17:03, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

HT, I'm going to leave that to either one of them, since they know what they're doing; I'd have to think about it. Ha, I'm going to take a short break from this lovely website--I was just told that I'm "foreign scum" and a bunch more stuff; for the hell of it, I should let you borrow my admin-glasses and show you what some nutcase has said about me on my talk page in the last few weeks. At least this time it wasn't about my family. BTW, Mandruss and Boing are good folks, and I thank both for assisting. Drmies (talk) 23:34, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

I took the liberty of posting your comments in a new section. I really do want to keep my personal response section limited to my own responses. For the record, Drmies, I have nothing personal against you or any other admin. Text is frequently misinterpreted and I'm not about to start using smiley faces and the like. I have nothing against Boing! and have no intention to "rag" on him. Do I feel that administrators are people, and thus subject to making mistakes? Of course. Do I feel that they are also subject to their own personal biases, just as regular editors are? Yes. It's not in my nature to beg, grovel, and try to "make friends" in an attempt to game the system and try to weasel my way out of a block. The lack of merit in MastCell's sanction stands for itself. If the community would like to take a look at the AP2 edits of MastCell, take a peek at this, and especially this, and see if they see a pattern and connection to the severity of my sanction, then good on the community. If the community finds nothing unusual and no connection, then that's fine too. I am very confident that clear-thinking, objective, reasonable editors will have no trouble figuring out what exactly is going on here. Also, I think I would like to try on your "admin glasses" for a few minutes. I just need to change the "3" in my UBR to a "0," right? Hidden Tempo (talk) 23:47, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

Kyohyi, am I going crazy or did your edit disappear from the AN board? I swear I know how to use ctrl+F but I'm not seeing your comment anywhere now.Hidden Tempo (talk) 03:37, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

You're not crazy, it was removed as an edit conflict I believe. That's just a shit show over at AN, so I haven't bothered restoring it. --Kyohyi (talk) 13:19, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

Point taken, but what am I supposed to do with these falsehoods that continue to be spread? Every editor who I predicted would come to oppose the unblock has done so, save for about three who probably haven't seen the AN posting yet. MrX just posted a bunch of diffs pre-TBAN, which have nothing to do with this indef blcok. Softlavender again accused me of lying. So when an uninvolved admin comes to close the discussion, they might see this and think Softlavender is telling the truth. The admin might see MrX's irrelevant out of context edits and be inappropriately swayed by my edits from last year. It's really the better option to just let that kind of garbage stand unchallenged? Hidden Tempo (talk) 13:29, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

We're conditioned to see these things as debates that can be won using reason and logic. That's largely not the case; all one can do is present their best case and then shut up, hoping people will be convinced. If they aren't, they aren't, and sometimes you're just screwed. Often one is in the wrong but their perspective prevents them from seeing that. I know little of your actual history, or care to, which is why I have not commented at AN, but in my opinion MrX is about as competent as we get in these things. Usually when one is screwed it's not without having repeatedly tested the boundaries. ―Mandruss ☎ 18:04, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

TheTimesAreAChanging - I cannot reply to your ping directly, as I am still indefinitely blocked for an imaginary, diff-less pattern of problematic editing. Currently embroiled in the AN discussion and resulting prevailing groupthink, but what you said about SPECIFICO is correct. She is currently arguing for my demise, getting traction due to her identical AP2 editing patterns as my blocking administrator. Hidden Tempo (talk) 22:18, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

I'd prefer to leave it to someone else to judge the consensus and close the WP:AN discussion, and I can then close the unblock request on this page in accordance with that. But yes, I agree, the consensus at the moment is looking like an unblock with topic ban. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 09:50, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

Sorry, I just decided to remove it. People like that just aren't worth it and CBS is right, I've more than made my case so it's just a matter of an admin coming to review the noticeboard posting and deciding if diff-less blocks should be voided, or if the !votes should simply be tallied regardless and stick with the result. Either way I wish it would happen soon so I can put this nastiness behind me. Hidden Tempo (talk) 23:20, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

Awilley - while I appreciate that you agree with my request to close the thread, I wanted to point out two quick things. One is that I never once attacked MastCell. As I stated, I'm sure he is a fine individual. What I attacked was his judgment and suitability of a highly AP2-involved admin with a clear political agenda (primarily edits favoring abortion and adding/removing material to the detriment of conservative figures) in handing out AP2-related sanctions. There is a clear difference, and it is important. As you can see by the diagram on my user page, I am highly mindful of WP:NPA.

Also, please note that Bishonen's offer is obsolete. She made the offer, I refused because it was intolerable and based on non-existent diffs, and so the offer expired. Many !votes offered varying lengths for a potential TBAN, and most did not include the "appeal only after 12 months" clause. The closing admin should decide on the duration of the TBAN and appeal conditions, should there be one imposed at all. Bishonen gets a !vote, like the rest of the community, but her suggestion should not receive extra weight at this stage of the appeal. Hidden Tempo (talk) 00:51, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

I explained Bishonen's offer for the closer's convenience because it was mentioned specifically by several participants in the discussion, including the OP. Re: you thinking MastCell is a fine individual, I call WP:SOUP, and the diff you give isn't convincing (just read the first sentence). Also the day before you said, "The reason that it was wrong to block me is in in part due to MastCell's hardline, uncompromising AP2 editing agenda, as well as his vile, elitist, tone-deaf rants against editors who do not share his ideologies." Yet you are quick to call "personal attack" when people say less about you. Anyway I hope you get a good closer who is able to take in all the relevant context. I'm still rooting for an unblock with topic ban so that you can edit constructively elsewhere without all this political baggage. ~Awilley (talk) 01:51, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

This section is not for general discussion or debate. Since I am not permitted to defend myself at the AN board or make a statement, I will be using this section to correct the record when it calls for it, and supply diffs when asked or to provide background. Hidden Tempo (talk) 15:30, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

Jo-Jo_Eumerus

Jo-Jo_Eumerus - I and others welcomed the blocking administrator multiple times to provide the diffs showing the behavior for which I am blocked. He declined each and every time. They were never produced by MastCell, or any of the other administrators who took a passing glance at the UBR. If you believe my quote to be an example of FUD, my invitation to supply diffs showing this pattern of WP:TEND-behavior since my TBAN remains open. Hidden Tempo (talk) 15:30, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

 Done ―Mandruss ☎ 17:35, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

Floquenbeam

Floquenbeam (only pinging for courtesy) - Again, I am not "sockpuppeting." I made 10 edits to two talk pages with a sockpuppet in February. It was a mistake, I admitted it, and it's done with. Still no diffs for the "POV-pushers" aspersion. Your qualifier "final chances in the topic area" is the lead, here. The unblock is a no-brainer. The real question is to TBAN or not to TBAN, which is an AE issue. Hidden Tempo (talk) 15:30, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

 Done ―Mandruss ☎ 17:35, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

MastCell

MastCell makes the claim that he has provided "evidence" for his reasons behind the indefinite block (""tendentious, hyper-partisan, agenda-driven disruptive editing edit-warring"), after being confronted once again for his refusal to provide diffs of the post-TBAN behavior in question. However, as every reasonable editor understands, a link to an ANI discussion in which I was tangentially involved and an AE appeal from last December is not "evidence" of the indef-worthy post-TBAN behavior which he is claiming. MastCell has not provided diffs of the behavior in question. Period. I admitted to the 3RR violation (as a result of removing BLPVIO material). The other three claims are catchall, vague, highly general and subjective accusations for which there is no evidence, which is why MC either a) can't find any diffs or b) has the diffs, but refuses to provide them for some unknown reason. I leave it to the community to decide which possibility is more likely. Hidden Tempo (talk) 16:24, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

 Done ―Mandruss ☎ 17:35, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

(Three sections above copied to Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard#Responses/Discussion from Hidden Tempo. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 16:30, 15 September 2017 (UTC))

(Oops, I hadn't spotted that User:Mandruss was already doing it - I've reverted my addition of that new subsection. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 16:33, 15 September 2017 (UTC))

The personal attacks and falsehoods from MastCell serve to illuminate several points I've been making all along, starting with the crass epithet of "enablers" directed to those who dare question MC's authority and judgment. MC cites this diff as his supposed "evidence." There's just one problem: the diffs within his diff are (2) references to my TBAN, (1) of the sockpuppeting, and (1) of my TBAN appeal. In Nfitz's ANI report, MC says that "the behaviors in question appear refractory," but does not post diffs of this claim. MC also says "HT was blocked for edit-warring and violating 3RR...HT has admitted to the edit-warring, so I find the repeated demands for diffs a bit dishonest", indicating that he doesn't even understand what the community is requesting. We have established that I violated 3RR in the process of following WP:BLPREMOVE. Nobody needs diffs for that infraction. What we need is the diffs of the behavior that he calls "refractory." Also: "He's admitting the edit-warring and asking for leniency points for remorse, but at the same time aggressively disputing the evidence for the block." Again, the block was not solely for a 3RR. The official reasoning was: "tendentious, hyper-partisan, agenda-driven disruptive editing; edit-warring; repeated instances despite prior blocks and topic ban" Where are these repeated instances post-TBAN? Where, MC? You're just going to leave it up to our imaginations? Clear WP:EXPLAINBLOCK violation.

You also submit that I "was given a last, last, last chance which he promptly abused". You can make the case that the "last...chance" was implied, but after my TBAN expired, I asked Doug Weller if I needed to do anything special. I was told to "be careful". Nothing about a "last, last, last chance" as you say. In reference to pleas from the community to abide by WP:EXPLAINBLOCK, you deflect with this attack: "It is absolutely dishonest, and reflects very poorly on them." I'm not going to get into a war of personal attacks with you, MastCell - I trust the community not to fall into the groupthink trap, and actually click the diffs. Please don't take my word for it! Click MC's diffs and see if he's providing this evidence that he says exists. A passed RfA should not turn one's words into gospel that is immune to scrutiny.

"But his real passion is reserved for attacks on me, and secondarily on anyone else who's supported his block. Just looking at today's output, I'm "vile", "elitist", "tone-deaf", etc..." I've lost count as to how many times I've had to tell you this: nobody is attacking you. I'm sure you're a perfectly good class of people. What is being attacked are your edits and your sanctions, in the context of your AP2 editing agenda to protect abortion and attack public figures who you view as critics of abortion. I stand by what I said about your edit on Floquenbeam's talk page, in which you viciously trash your fellow Wikipedians and reminisce about the good ol' days when more people were around who agree with you politically. Please don't take challenges to your sanctions personally. None of us have anything against you personally, that I know of. Final note - your timeline is a bit fuzzy regarding two prior sanctions. I received the BLP block (calling an 11% trustworthiness rating of Hillary Clinton "feeble") during the TBAN, not before. It's vital to get the facts right, here, since there's a lot half-truths and outright false claims circulating here. For instance, it's a fact that I was blocked for saying "11%" is feeble, accompanied by a RS. It's also a fact that you issued a milquetoast "warning" to another editor to "watch his language" after he repeatedly referred to a living person (Donald Trump) as a "piece of shit," "bigot," and "misogynist" , all unsourced. Please observe how actual diffs of specific edits support my words. Hidden Tempo (talk) 02:25, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

Much time has passed since you posted this, and the landscape has changed in that time. Do you still want to copy this? Do you want to copy it unchanged? Where do you want to copy it? Do you still want to copy it with that {{od}}? ―Mandruss ☎ 19:53, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

Thanks Mandruss - no, please don't move it over. It's slightly out of date and the discussion is long enough as is. Just the below edit if you wouldn't mind. Thank you. Hidden Tempo (talk) 20:10, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

 Not done ―Mandruss ☎ 20:20, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

MastCell continues to make the same mistakes and utter the same falsehoods. Following the same exact flowchart template he's been using for a month: 1) he says I'm not accepting responsibility for the editing behavior for which he refuses to provide diffs, despite my UBR and repeated acceptances of responsibility for the 3RR 2) attempt the "Look at this over here, instead!" sleight-of-diff (linking pre-TBAN/mid-TBAN editing, rather than the "repeated instances" of problematic editing for which I was blocked) to distract from the absence of diffs, 3) utter damaging and demonstrably false claims, and hope nobody notices (never once did I assign fault of the socking to "someone else"), and I also never called into question the AP2 edits of any other admin - just yours. Then, you cite somebody else's diff as part of your strategy to lend credence to what you are saying. Pinging Thucydides411 so he is aware of the egregious dishonesty of this act. Then, you finish with the tired old falsehood that you keep repeating, that YOU are being attacked. And for the nth time, you are not being attacked. Your sanction within the context of your agenda-driven abortion/AP2 editing pattern is what I, and others, have called into question. I explained the difference to you in detail here, which was never moved to the AN board (too long, but the takeaway is that you never provided diffs for what you call "repeated instances despite prior blocks and topic ban") and I addressed your slur of "enablers" for those with whom you disagree. Hidden Tempo (talk) 20:07, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

 Done ―Mandruss ☎ 20:20, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

Awilley

Awilley uses the same rationale as MastCell - contending that a link to a pre-indef AE appeal and a link to Nfitz's ANI report (also pre-indef) is sufficient evidence for a pattern of post-TBAN "tendentious, hyper-partisan, agenda-driven disruptive editing edit-warring" editing. It's not. A sanction as severe as an indef block requires detailed, clear, unambiguous diffs of my edits, showing the claimed editing pattern. Intentional or not, MastCell muddies the waters and poisons the well by going on and on about pre/mid-TBAN behavior. "He was TBANNED last December...he edited a talk page with a sock last February...he got into a heated content dispute at Stephen Miller..." That doesn't cut it. If I had the diffs, then I could see the problem to which you and MastCell are referring, view the specific edits in question, and then address the problem and rectify the editing pattern. But of course, we never saw the diffs. Ex: Awilley is an employee and comes into work, but is sent home because Awilley is not compliant with the company's dress code. Awilley must be told explicitly and specifically how he is violating company policy, or else Awilley will come into work day after day, and be sent home day after day, until Awilley figures out the correct wardrobe combination. Is Awilley being treated fairly? Does this scenario indicate a productive, efficient process of remedying a problem? That is what is happening here. I addressed each and every single block reason in my UBR and followed WP:GAB to the letter, and I did it with diffs. Hidden Tempo (talk) 17:24, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

 Done ―Mandruss ☎ 17:35, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

Drmies

Drmies - it appears that you are now addressing the content dispute itself, rather than discussing the validity of MastCell's diff-less block. You will probably not be surprised that I entirely disagree with your view that the Politico op-ed was sufficient for the material. You may remember that I was once blocked by Boing! said Zebedee for referring to an 11% trustworthiness rating as a "feeble" number, since the RS I used (not an op-ed, by the way) did not also use the word "feeble." This is why I believed the imaginative and very loose interpretation of the op-ed to be a BLPVIO, and required its removal (see FT2's explanation below). Additionally, even if the material passed mustard, that page is a BLP and therefore editors must not reinstate contested material that had been removed, without building consensus on the talk page. I have no clue what Rjensen's views are on the activities of one George Soros, and fail to see how they're relevant to WP:BLPREMOVE policy, which really couldn't be more clear. But this AN report is not a forum to debate the content. This is about my diff-less, evidence-free block. Hidden Tempo (talk) 23:08, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

 Done ―Mandruss ☎ 04:23, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but that belt analogy didn't really make your t-shirt analogy more clear (on my end, at least). I believe you're contending that my alleged post-TBAN pattern of "tendentious, hyper-partisan, agenda-driven disruptive editing edit-warring" is so immediately apparent, obvious, and unambiguous that MastCell is completely exempt from WP:ADMINACCT and is thus not required to provide diffs (outside of a few non-sequitur links to an AE appeal from last year and somebody else's ANI report)? If I've gotten that right, then why the need for a very polarized AN discussion? Several editors have rallied to my defense here (for which I am extremely grateful, by the way), echoing my sentiments about evidence-free sanctions being permitted to stand, and observing none of the behavior that MastCell believed to be so egregious as to warrant an indefinite block in order to protect the project from my film, sports, and yes, even my AP2 edits. If what you're saying is true, no discussion would be required. To stick with your analogy, perhaps Awilley would be arriving to work without a required red pocket square (even though Awilley is wearing one), sent home without being told why, and refusing to give a reason after being asked for one repeatedly. Hidden Tempo (talk) 23:18, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

 Done ―Mandruss ☎ 04:23, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

Neutrality

Neutrality - this is the first time I've ever seen a diff-less block earn the characterization of "well supported." Of course, my indef is probably the first time I've seen a block without diffs period. A block given without diffs, with multiple refusals to provide these supposed diffs that may or may not exist can never be described as "adequately explained and well supported." You go on to say that I did not acknowledge that my conduct was not ideal or say that I can be productive. Did you read my UBR? If you had, you would have seen this, this, this, this and multiple other edits where I explicitly acknowledge violating 3RR policy (even when taking WP:BLPREMOVE into consideration), accept fault for the violation, and lay out my reasons why I can, and continue to be a productive editor. You also used very imprecise language (as others did) to describe my critique of the blocking administrator: "bashing the blocking admin", when that's not at all what I was doing. I'm sure MastCell is a fine person and admin. I have no personal qualms with MastCell. My problem is with his application of this sanction without the required diffs, especially with his AP2 editing patterns and highly irregular and alarming timeline surrounding his 10 minute review of my user contribs. Finally, when someone says this, and then suddenly decides I am in need of an indef TBAN, we really need to take a step back at some point and decide if the full story is on display, here. Hidden Tempo (talk) 01:28, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

 Done ―Mandruss ☎ 04:32, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

Neutrality - at least four editors and one administrator have requested diffs from MastCell, to no avail. Your thesis seems to be that a link to a declined 2016 AE appeal and Nfitz's ANI report satisfies WP:EXPLAINBLOCK. It does not, as the extremely divided response to MC's indef shows. MrX provided diffs pre-2016 TBAN. Bishonen warned me and subsequently TBAN'd me partially due to those diffs. The TBAN expires, and after ~1.5 months, I receive an indefinite block, for edits after the TBAN. This indefinite block is for an editing pattern post-TBAN in that 1.5 month window. We are asking for the post-TBAN diffs that show the post-TBAN problematic editing pattern, which have not been produced by MastCell, Drmies or any other Wikipedian. We are not here to debate 2016 pre-TBAN edits.

I understand that you have a different interpretation of WP:BLPREMOVE than FT2 and I, but I admitted to 3RR (as anyone who read my UBR already knows): " made a mistake by violating 3RR a few days ago. I should have waited for my OR noticeboard posting to come to some conclusion.","I have already stated that my single 3RR violation in my editing history was a mistake, and would not reoccur","While it does not excuse my violation of 3RR, I did so ,"3RR is the only one that has any real validity, which I already confessed to and said I would not repeat.". So my first ever 3RR vio has been handled. We are now asking for post-TBAN diffs of "tendentious, hyper-partisan, agenda-driven disruptive" editing in AP2/non-AP2 areas which definitively show the need for an indefinite block. Please, Neutrality, stop perpetuating demonstrably false narratives without reading the talk page discussion. I cannot acknowledge problems with the "substance of the edits" if ZERO post-TBAN edits have been provided. Hidden Tempo (talk) 17:30, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

 Done Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 17:39, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

Valeince

Valeince - how much of my UBR did you read? I addressed each reason point by point. However, I can't get into specifics because MastCell refuses to provide diffs of the behavior which he alleges occurred after the TBAN. If MastCell would show us some evidence, some diffs of this pattern...perhaps then I could explicitly address those edits. Until then, we can only speak in general terms and make guesses as to what MastCell thinks is "tendentious, hyper-partisan, agenda-driven disruptive" editing. Also, take a look at my UBR. I explicitly said numerous times that should another WP:BLPREMOVE issue arise, I would take allow my NOR posting to resolve before removing the contested BLPVIO material. Please fully inform yourself with the facts before commenting on this discussion. Hidden Tempo (talk) 01:34, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

 Done ―Mandruss ☎ 04:32, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

Softlavender

Softlavender - you are more than entitled to your own opinions on my editing, and whether or not my UBR sufficiently addresses the diff-less grounds for the indef. What you are not entitled to is casting WP:ASPERSIONS. I already had to correct this falsehood when it was uttered by Floquenbeam, so it appears you did not read through the discussion very carefully. I admitted to the sockpuppeting immediately - I did not "lie" about it. An editor of integrity would immediately strike such a glaring blunder of this magnitude and distaste, and I would again ask that editors refrain from commenting further before actually reading through the discussion (not skimming) and clicked on the diffs. I understand it is extremely long and involved, so nobody would think less of you should you choose not to read through it, and therefore not attempt to offer an uninformed opinion on my fate. Editors are welcome to suggest unfavorable outcomes, but rubbernecking and spouting off a few bytes of random text is dreadfully poor form. Hidden Tempo (talk) 05:26, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

 Done ―Mandruss ☎ 05:46, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

Bishonen

Not going to respond to every Bishonen claim here, in the hopes that folks will actually click on the diffs and verify if what she says is in fact true. As I had previously stated, nobody would think less of anyone for not educating themselves with the facts of the talk page discussion, and thus recusing themselves from voting/commenting. I don't remember anyone informing me that I may not correct false claims or respond to aspersions in the AN discussion. The 3RR vio (which Bishonen sees as a WP:CRYBLP issue) has been discussed and resolved. The fact that the only diffs editors can find are of pre/mid-TBAN behavior, rather than the alleged behavior for which the block was given, speaks volumes. Instead of showing us diffs of this supposed "tendentious, hyper-partisan, agenda-driven disruptive" editing pattern, a few users, which now includes Bishonen, continue to regress to pre/mid-TBAN diffs. But of course, the pre-TBAN diffs are NOT the reasons for the block, and a first 3RR vio block would have expired long ago. This "circus" could have been avoided if the right thing was done in the very beginning: do not indefinitely block editors without giving a warning, and especially do not do it without diffs (per WP:EXPLAINBLOCK). Thuc got it right: banning editors without evidence (no, a 2016 declined AE appeal and Nfitz's ANI report is not "evidence") and then accusing the editor of being a "time sink"/"time suck"/wasting time when he defends himself is quite Kafkaesque. Hidden Tempo (talk) 21:40, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

 Done ―Mandruss ☎ 21:49, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

MjolnirPants

MP - I am going to AGF and operate under the assumption that you are offering your completely unbiased, neutral, and objective opinion. However, I noticed that your AP2 edits have the identical overarching theme of MastCell's, MrX's, SPECIFICO's, and Objective3000's AP2 edits, and recently uttered this without a hint of satire or jest, yet you still felt it necessary to cast a !vote anyway. I am offended and irked by that decision. Today, you said this: "the claim that MastCell never provided any diffs to justify the block is straight up bullshit". There is some nuance here. Did he provide diffs to justify his indef? Yes, he linked my 2016 AE appeal of a TBAN and Nfitz's ANI report. What he did NOT do was provide the most critical and relevant diffs: edits that showed a pattern of "tendentious, hyper-partisan, agenda-driven disruptive" editing after the TBAN expired. A couple out-of-place diffs does not satisfy WP:EXPLAINBLOCK. Nobody has been able to find these diffs, including MastCell, which is why so many of us have concluded that they do not exist. Hidden Tempo (talk) 23:33, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

 Done ―Mandruss ☎ 23:38, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

TheGracefulSlick

TGS, I've already responded to this claim multiple times, so I would direct you to those replies. The takeaway is: I cannot "outright responsibility for all the reasons" (a "tendentious, hyper-partisan, agenda-driven disruptive" post-TBAN editing pattern) if the blocking administrator can not or will not provide diffs showing this editing pattern. I have outlined my post-unblock plans in my UBR (did you read it or just skip to the "opinion voicing" part?) and I've addressed each alleged block reason in a general sense. However, all of us are being asked to critique the Emperor's new clothes. Unsurprisingly, many editors aren't letting the absence of diffs and facts stand in their way of having an opinion and sounding off, here. A correlation has emerged between how the community votes, and whether or not they've noticed that MC has not provided the specific blockable post-TBAN diffs that we have repeatedly tried (unsuccessfully) to pry from MC. If we see these diffs, and they show what MC claims they show, I will not only admit that I'm a terrible person/disruptive/activist editor (and any other awful things contained in the diffs), but I will shout it from the rooftops. Only after we see the diffs, though. Hidden Tempo (talk) 13:43, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

 Done ~Awilley (talk) 18:16, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

Cbs527

Cbs527 - I'll only address this remark: "HT has insinuated (or insist depending how you look at it) that only post-TBan differences can justify this block . He is quite mistaken." I'm not sure if I've been unclear with the point that many of us have been making, or if our wires were crossed somehow, but that's not at all what I have been trying to communicate. The point is that MastCell claims the indef is for "tendentious, hyper-partisan, agenda-driven disruptive editing," and tacks on the "edit-warring" at the end (note that the editors I edit warred with, who were reinstating the contentious material without consensus received no warnings or sanctions). MastCell stated that "the behaviors in question appear refractory," indicating that this editing pattern has continued after the TBAN expired. So it's either a) MC is blocking me for something I've already done time for, b) MC is indef blocking me exclusively for an alleged first-time 3RR offense, or c) MC is indeffing me for post-TBAN edits, for which he is withholding diffs. In all three cases, the block is invalid and should have long-expired for a first-time alleged 3RR offense in the process of abiding by WP:BLPREMOVE. Hidden Tempo (talk) 00:58, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

 Done - There was already a reply to Cbs527, so I added this after that. ―Mandruss ☎ 01:37, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

• Comment I think everybody's about had enough of this thread and said their piece. Bishonen suggested that this thread remain open through last weekend, and it has stayed open much longer than that now. This is going around in circles and just as I predicted, the thread has now degenerated into aspersions, personal attacks, and false accusations/half-truths. Let's simplify what's been learned so far from this Rorschach test of an unblock appeal, and I think I've summarized most major points of view and facts:

So the facts have been established, and important milestones and key points of debate are within the collapsed section. I, and it seems the vast majority of participants, are more than ready to have this report closed. I made my case, and many others have made their case as well. Please let's not spend any more of our time arguing the same points again and again. If an uninvolved administrator could close this, I think we would all be very grateful. While there is a good amount of "unblock without restrictions" !votes, it seems the !vote tally is not in my favor. Nonetheless, this has run its course. Thanks to !Boing for taking action and moving this appeal along, and thank you to all the editors who saw what I saw and voted accordingly. Hidden Tempo (talk) 04:06, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

@Mandruss - not really sure where this goes. If we could make this an "Oppose TBAN, Support Unblock" !vote under "Additional Considerations" I suppose that would be ideal, but I don't know if I'm allowed to vote in my own appeal. Otherwise, perhaps directly above that section and directly below Johnuniq's vote would be best. Thanks for all the edit moving, hopefully this will be closed very soon. Hidden Tempo (talk)

Such a !vote would be best placed in the first survey, I think, but I don't think you get a !vote. ―Mandruss ☎ 04:15, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

Perhaps just insert as a *Comment, then? Hidden Tempo (talk) 04:17, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

Write a Comment, specify placement, and I'll copy it like all the others. ―Mandruss ☎ 04:23, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

 Done - Indented each of the bullets within the collapsed content. ―Mandruss ☎ 04:59, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

(refactored from above)

Hidden Tempo, I'm sorry you misread my comments. I wasn't commenting on content as much as explaining why your article edits and talk page contributions were clear enough indications of blockable behavior. In my opinion, of course. BLP exemptions, by the way, need to be reasonable, so it's not like the mere claim of a BLP violation suffices. Moreover, there are two living people involved, and the contention is that one of those edits of yours was a BLP violation of the other person, so to speak. I hope that clears it up.
Sorry, failed to look at the "feeble" thing. RexxS is a pretty straight shooter, and this edit summary indeed was not your best moment--one can argue, I suppose, that you've had it in for Marek since then or even before, but that's neither here nor there for now. I'm not quite sure why you want to point me to a discussion where you were blocked for a BLP violation, and unblocked on the condition that you grasp the BLP, when that's precisely what we're discussing. User:Boing! said Zebedee, of course, is the one who got this whole discussion going for you in the first place, so again, why would you want to rag on them right now? I'm asking because I just don't understand the tactics here--if I were you I'd be making friends, not pointing at old things that don't make you look good, while criticizing those who have been good to you. Now, if this is only about paraphrase, I've been teaching paraphrase for 20+ years, and I think that was a pretty good one. Take care, Drmies (talk) 23:26, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

 Done ―Mandruss ☎ 04:43, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

• My point was that the reason for your block was pretty clear. No, that doesn't mean no discussion is ever required. What it means is that not all cases are the same--some are easily nailed with a diff or two, others are shown by an overview of a particular discussion and a few other pointers. That so many admins (and other editors) agree, and that no one except for Boing, who is a very kind individual, and FT2 have chosen to even engage with you should be a pretty clear signal too. Drmies (talk) 23:26, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

 Done ―Mandruss ☎ 04:43, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

@Timothyjosephwood - I'm a libertarian living in Los Angeles. If I wanted to argue politics, I would just need to step outside and say something that Maxine Waters and Eric Garcetti wouldn't agree with, although I might end up beaten, set on fire, or worse. The reason I am arguing so strenuously against handing me a topic ban is because I feel like William Shatner in an episode of The Twilight Zone. I have pointed out again and again that MastCell has not given us diffs of the blockable behavior, and thus I cannot specifically address his concerns and explain why I will cease this alleged editing pattern. And again and again, I am met with one of two responses: 1) Someone says that MastCell DID provide the diffs, but can't link to where he posted these diffs and do not provide them for themselves, or 2) Muddy the waters and instead focus on pre/mid-TBAN diffs, all of which are separate from the reasons that MastCell says require an indefinite block in order to protect the project. But nobody seems to think this is odd except for myself, five other editors, and an admin who declined to formally review the block. It's truly bizarre, and I'm really baffled to how this could possibly be happening when all of our words are in ink. So my already unpleasant predicament is compounded by the fact that everyone is discussing whether or not the Emperor's new clothes are too ornate, do not fit well, etc., while I (and a few others) seem to be the only editors who realize he's not wearing any clothes. Does this analogy make sense? I mixed and matched some metaphors there, but I think you get the gist. Hidden Tempo (talk)

The series of responses you have given only lead me to one of two conclusions: either A) you are more concerned about arguing politics than building an encyclopedia, or B) you are more concerned about being right than building an encyclopedia. I'd invite anyone watching this conversation to arbitrarily TBAN me from any part of the project and I'd be fine with it, because I'd go somewhere else and make improvements there. You don't seem to share that sentiment.

If you can learn to share that sentiment then you are useful. If you cannot, then you are not. TJW 00:12, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

You are unique in that regard. Most editors have a few particular areas where the bulk of their edits are concentrated. I have stated many times that I am much less concerned with being right than getting it right. My personal views are checked at the door when I log in to the project. Believe me, if you topic banned MastCell from abortion or AP2 areas, he would immediately notice. You'll see that nearly all of his edits are related to promoting/protecting abortion in some way - judges who have made it harder for women to get abortions, political commentators who have denounced abortion, politicians who aren't fond of abortion, and various other AP2 articles.

When you can derive nearly all of an editor's political views from their edits and sanctions (like the gentle warning he gave to Nfitz for calling a living person a "bigot" and "piece of shit" numerous times), you know there's a problem. And yet, MastCell is somehow "useful," while I am not, but of course we're all supposed to pretend this and this has absolutely nothing to do with my predicament vs. MastCell's unfettered ability to hand out diff-less AP2 sanctions. Once again, I have no desire to argue about politics - only content. For example, on Dismissal of James Comey, I made the point that the line about "Nate Silver thinks it's possible Comey's letter cost Hillary the election" should be removed, since an AAPOR scientific study found this to be demonstrably false, and made the content UNDUE and POV. My opinion of why Clinton lost (and we all have one, let's be honest) is irrelevant, and I never voiced it after I did served out my TBAN. And that's just one example. Hidden Tempo (talk) 00:32, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

I'm honestly not even reading this, because it's not worth my time, and it happens that arguing with you doesn't actually improve the encyclopedia. I advise you to accept the TBAN voluntarily, and show us that you might one day be a valuable contributor. If you continue to argue I will probably change my !vote from a TBAN to an indef. Beyond that advice, I don't watch this page and I will not respond to pings. TJW 00:44, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

Well, I appreciate the input and advice just the same. Thuc has just left an eloquent description of the phenomenon that is occurring right now on the AN board, in case you're interested. Hidden Tempo (talk) 00:52, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

@Ivanvector - Multiple users have now complained that I shouldn't be saying that MastCell's block being improper. Per WP:GAB/WP:NICETRY: "It is not enough if you just say that the block was "wrong" or "unfair", or another user violated a policy first. You must explain why it was wrong to block you, or why it should be reversed." There is nothing in the guide saying "Just make sure that you leave the blocking admin out of it, and WP:EXPLAINBLOCK exempts admins from providing diffs. Admins are divine beings since they made it through an RfA, and are thus immune to scrutiny." The reason that it was wrong to block me is in in part due to MastCell's hardline, uncompromising AP2 editing agenda, as well as his vile, elitist, tone-deaf rants against editors who do not share his ideologies. You say that I am repeating the disruption in the topic area, but do not provide diffs. You say MastCell has "explained in incredible detail," but provide no diffs. Why are we supposed to take these claims at face value? At least a dozen editors have posted nearly the same exact comment, vaguely referencing this notion that MastCell has already provided the diffs and claiming/citing the supposed problematic pattern, but everybody forgets to provide the diffs. Why? I said it again and again - I have no problem acknowledging the problematic behavior and agreeing to change it, but without seeing the problematic behavior in the form of diffs, how could I possibly agree to change it? I already addressed violating 3RR in the midst of following WP:BLPREMOVE, but which edits of mine were "tendentious"? Which were "disruptive"? Which edits were "hyper-partisan"? Let's take it step by step. Let's see the diffs of these specific edits showing this return to the problematic behavior after the TBAN expired, and then we can go from there. Hidden Tempo (talk) 18:27, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

Multiple users have provided the diffs, and I referenced at least one of those in my comment. That you are for some reason blind to them does not make it so that they are not there, and your ongoing demand to have things explained to you when they have already been explained in great detail is not endearing editors to your cause. Ivanvector (/_Edits) 19:22, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

No, you didn't. I checked. You did the same thing everybody else did: said the diffs existed, said MastCell provided the diffs, but provided no diffs of the alleged blockable editing, nor the diffs of MastCell providing the diffs. The only diffs that have been provided are either from pre-TBAN (not the blockable editing), mid-TBAN (also not what MC cited as the blockable editing), and the 3RR (which I acknowledged occurred, admitted to, and assured the community would not reoccur). And why is that? Is it that much of a "time sink" to copy-paste a diff? See, if this is just a popularity contest to see if I'm "endearing" enough to have earned justice/diffs, I can handle that. Just say, "Look, HT. We don't have the diffs and you haven't done anything to deserve being indefinitely blocked from creating any more film articles or updating the BLP's of athletes. We simply don't like you." But this whole charade of pretending there's some enormous stockpile of diffs somewhere (which nobody can be bothered to ctrl+c and then ctrl+v) showing that I have this definitive pattern of post-TBAN problematic editing is just absurd. Hidden Tempo (talk) 19:48, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

@Ivanvector: I've noticed that everyone talks about the diffs, but nobody actually posts them. I've looked for MastCell's diffs, and I haven't been able to find them. After a couple of tries to find them, and a couple exchanges where MastCell said they existed, but wouldn't post them, I've concluded that MastCell probably never posted them. -Thucydides411 (talk) 21:06, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

The simple fact is I don't care about the diffs, the block has been thoroughly rationalized and was thoroughly endorsed at ANI. I'm not about to hold your hand and read those discussions to you, they're there for you to look at if you could be bothered to stop wasting everyone else's time. You're blocked because of an ongoing pattern of disruptive editing that's clear to everyone except you apparently, and your behaviour throughout this block request inspires no confidence in me that you know when to drop the stick, nor that you've learned anything at all. Ivanvector (/_Edits) 21:15, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

Thucydides411, you're absolutely correct. He did not post them, and neither did anyone else. Notice how Ivan is now regressing to condescension and the ol' "wasting everyone's time/time sink" slam, after what I imagine to have been an extensive double-checking of his posts to see if what I'm saying is true - "Is HT right? Did I actually not post those diffs?" After what I say checks out, he comes back here not to apologize and change his vote, but to drop a few insults and then promptly move the goalposts: "Okay well, maybe I didn't post the diffs....but I don't care about the diffs!" If I defend myself, I'm being disruptive and not taking responsibility for my behavior. If I ask for the diffs, I am told that they exist, and "No, you can't have them." I believe there's a word for this kind of tactic, but it escapes me at the moment. Either way, the moral of the story is if the powers that be want you gone, they WILL find a way, and WP:EXPLAINBLOCK is really just there for entertainment purposes only. Hidden Tempo (talk) 21:29, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

@Ivanvector: You can't use the fact that someone speaks in their own defense as a reason to sanction them. You also can't block someone without providing evidence. If HT's recidivism since the end of the previous TBAN is so obvious, then it should be easy to find diffs to prove it. If you're not willing to accept basic principles like:

1. The accused has the right to speak in their own defense.
2. Evidence should be made public.

Then, in my personal opinion, you shouldn't be involved in discussions about sanctioning any editor. -Thucydides411 (talk) 21:36, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

Sincere thanks to @Darouet and Darwinian Ape for your recent comments. You are expressing in a very calm, cogent manner, what I have been attempting to communicate for over a month, especially the analysis of the mob mentality/groupthink that DarwinianApe points out. The "oppose unblock" votes are essentially taken from the votes of others and then Frankensteined into a new edit, in a hodgepodge of Wiki terms from the exile-this-editor grab bag: "wikilawyer" (even if I don't use formal legal terms, abide by the letter of a policy over the spirit, misinterpret policy, or suggest interpretations should override the actual policies), "time sink" (don't defend yourself after being indef'd), "POV warrior" (your view doesn't match mine), and by far the worst: "you have been given diffs" (and no, we won't show you where). Darouet, thank you very much for changing your vote. Darwinian, I am very grateful for your honest and objective review of my appeal. Many editors have refused to read the related discussion and unblock request, yet feel it appropriate to a cast a vote regardless. Do you need any more information or have any questions for me in order to make you comfortable enough to cast a vote? Hidden Tempo (talk)

Not trying to soapbox with this analogy, but this is what they do in DPRK and used to do in the USSR. You go into a room, are forced to sign your confession for crimes (with the promise of leniency), but you aren't allowed to read the confession. This can't be how Jimbo envisioned as how he wants this process to work. Can it? I've said it numerous times. Show me the diffs of the "repeated instances" since my topic ban expired, and I WILL be the first to take responsibility for them, apologize for them, and explain to the community why I will not repeat these edits. But I can't do that until I SEE these edits. Is this edit really an unfair request? Is asking for these diffs really nothing more than merely more bludgeoning and wikilawyering? Please tell me so I can help resolve this. I respect and understand that you feel that I should never be unblocked, but I still feel that my concerns are being completely ignored and my appeal is being dismissed again and again as nothing more than a "time sink/"suck"/waste of the community's time. Hidden Tempo (talk) 20:30, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

• HT, would you like to offer a short proposal of what you would be willing to do/accept before the discussion is closed? I did not !vote at the WP:AN discussion because I don't feel you are intentionally violating policies/guidelines. I also feel your discourse and debating skills need some improvement as you are frequently appearing to convey a message/point which may not be what you want to convey. I also see quite a bit of validity for a TBan and to a lesser extent an indef. ban which is why I am chosing not to !vote. Unintentional violation of policies/guidelines, miscommunication, your discourse -these are areas that only you, not Misplaced Pages, can deal with. Misplaced Pages is not a democracy, it is a project which has it's rules and the community decides what happens in the project, whether it seems fair or not. Think of the NCAA. They have their regulations and guidelines. Bottom line if any athlete doesn't "play by the rules" they don't get to play. It doesn't matter if the athlete didn't understand the rules, or Joe Smuck did the same thing and he wasn't sanctioned in the same way (each case is different), or that the reporter of the athlete's violation is biased because they are associated with a rival school. I think you get my point. You don't have "admit" that you are guilty of violating our policies and guidelines, you just need to "accept" that the community feels that you have and the steps you will take to prevent it from happening again, not just that you won't do it again. If you do want make a statement don't argue what you have already said. Just acknowledge that the community feels "X,Y,Z" and what steps you feel you can do to prevent what "the community feels" is necessary. For instance, disruptive editing. If you need help with this, post it on your talk page, and you will receive some suggestions and pay particular attention to those who disagreed with your defense. No matter the outcome of this, I did enjoy editing with you - we agreed some times, disagreed at others but I feel we both respect each others opinions. Best of Luck, CBS527 13:42, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

Honestly I don't really know if there's anything else to add at this point. I understand the rules, as I've been around for a while, but disagree with those who say I broke them (after my TBAN, that is). My unblock request was based off a thorough review of WP:TEND, WP:DISRUPT and WP:BLPREMOVE, and I provided diffs showing why I have been in compliance with the policies since my TBAN, with the exception of the 3RR. Of course I have agreed not to repeat the editing that MastCell/the community says is a problem, but that seems a little hollow given that we haven't seen these edits he's talking about. What seems more practical is to pledge to do a better job of handling content disputes/BLPVIO issues so that my editing won't be viewed as tendentious/disruptive, which I did, but that wasn't enough for SpacemanSpiff and others. They feel that the project needs to be protected from my editing at Jean Lake, New England Patriots, and Tony Vinciquerra. In regards to the indef TBAN with no right to appeal, I have said that editors who speak like this are not appropriate targets for a TBAN. Others disagree, and I've done all I can to convince them otherwise. Just ready for this to be over, now. Hidden Tempo (talk) 19:38, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

Regardless of how the discussion turns out, I'm done with this project based on how you've been treated. A project where people are arguing that concepts of fairness don't apply, where people say evidence has been provided but then say they don't care about evidence when it's pointed out that there has been no evidence. A project where a majority of editors see no problem with this unwarranted ban. A project which has been infected by the US's nuttiness in politics, where tendentious POV-pushers of one persuasion are completely acceptable unless they go seriously off the deep end but the mighty banhammer falls on those with a different political opinion, even when they've amended their behaviour, concepts of fairness be damned. This project isn't for me, it looks like it's not for you either. There are less stressful ways of contributing to society, with far nicer, fairer, saner people. Cjhard (talk) 23:56, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

MjolnirPants, you certainly are quite vested in the discussion to make sure you get your way, for an uninvolved editor. Now you're going as far as to falsely claim (as the diffs show to anyone who clicks on them) that my last comment was "full of falsehoods and wikilawyering," while canvassing for admins who you're hoping might agree with you, such as Ritchie333, Oshwah, NeilN, and even a few who are already following the discussion quite closely, such as Bishonen and Boing! said Zebedee. Personally, I like to spend my Saturdays watching college football and doing some reading, but hey, it's your free time. If you prefer to spend it pleading with admins to TBAN a fellow Wikipedian instead of editing AP2 articles, then I can't stop you.

That being said, I have already called for the thread to be closed. I posted the facts, pointed out for the nth time that zero diffs and no evidence was ever given for "repeated instances" of "tendentious, hyper-partisan, agenda-driven disruptive editing; edit-warring" after my topic ban. Voters either clicked on the diffs, or they didn't (many did not, which was apparent from their "reasoning"). It was a long discussion, and it has run its course. Many pointed out that we never got any diffs/evidence of the post-TBAN "repeated instances", and many claimed we did (no diffs from the latter crew). Unfortunately, the loudest people in the room often get the most attention. It's been determined that the encyclopedia must be protected from my tendentious and disruptive edits: .

One of my favorite quotes of all time comes from Noam Chomsky, and it has never been more relevant: "The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum." Thanks for allowing the debate, everyone. Hidden Tempo (talk) 21:19, 23 September 2017 (UTC)