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Thucydides411

Thucydides411 is banned from all edits and pages related to US-Russia relations for three months. For the avoidance of doubt, this includes matters related to the question of Russian interference in US elections. GoldenRing (talk) 12:24, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Request concerning Thucydides411 User who is submitting this request for enforcement MrX (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 19:44, 12 November 2017 (UTC) User against whom enforcement is requested Thucydides411 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log Sanction or remedy to be enforced WP:ARBAPDS : Misplaced Pages editors are expected to behave reasonably, calmly, and courteously in their interactions with other editors; to approach even difficult situations in a dignified fashion and with a constructive and collaborative outlook; and to avoid acting in a manner that brings the project into disrepute. Unseemly conduct, such as personal attacks, incivility, assumptions of bad faith, harassment, disruptive point-making, and gaming the system, is prohibited. All Misplaced Pages articles must be written from a neutral point of view. Merely presenting a plurality of viewpoints, especially from polarized sources, does not fulfill the neutral point of view. When there is a good-faith dispute, editors are expected to participate in the consensus-building process and to carefully consider other editors' views, rather than simply edit-warring back-and-forth between competing versions. Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it November 12, 2017 Restoring blatant personal attack after it was removed by another editor. (Edit warring) November 12, 2017 Restoring blatant personal attack after it was removed by another editor. (Edit warring) November 12, 2017 Restoring blatant personal attack after it was removed by another editor. (Edit warring) November 12, 2017 Blatant personal attack and personalizing disputes. November 12, 2017 Assumption of bad faith: "This just looks like an attempt to hide the mainstream view of the JAR from readers. Given the discussion above about "purging" the article, the intent of this RfC is quite clear." November 12, 2017 Assumption of bad faith November 12, 2017 Assumption of bad faith October 11, 2017 Personalizing content disputes July 4, 2017 Refusal to accept consensus Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any February 18, 2017 Blocked for violation of discretionary sanctions restrictions May 7, 2017 Given a discretionary sanction by Lord Roem (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA). If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts) Previously given a discretionary sanction for conduct in the area of conflict on February 18, 2017 by Coffee (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA). Alerted about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, see the system log linked to above. Gave an alert about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, on January 23, 2017 Participated in an arbitration request or enforcement procedure about the area of conflict in the last twelve months, on February 25, 2017. Previously given a discretionary sanction for conduct in the area of conflict on May 7, 2017 by Lord Roem (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA). Additional comments by editor filing complaint Thucydides411 has persistently made assumptions of bad faith, personal attacks, edit warring, refusal to abide by consensus] and general tendentious editing at Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections for nearly a year as part of his campaign to inject his fringe POV, that election interference by Russia didn't happen, into the article. He has been warned several times at several venues to stop but he continues to exhibit a pattern of behavior that is disruptive and a drain on everyone's patience. These last personal attacks on Volunteer Marek are way over the line. @James J. Lambden: That's news to me. Please list the diffs corresponding to my examples above that show Thucydides411 being attacked. And no, let's not close this. We all know that ANI is useless for resolving these types of issues which is why there were two Arbcom cases for American politics, and why there are discretionary sanction which I am asking to be enforced.- MrX 00:39, 13 November 2017 (UTC) Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested Discussion concerning Thucydides411 Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks. Statement by Thucydides411 I'm not going to comment here further than to say this: I think this report is part of a campaign of intimidation and harassment. I really don't have the time to respond - getting down in the mud over the insane situation on American Politics articles isn't worth it. -Thucydides411 (talk) 19:57, 12 November 2017 (UTC) Statement by slatersateven) There is an ongoing ANI launched by me. We should close this (or that) and only have one running.Slatersteven (talk) 19:59, 12 November 2017 (UTC) Can we please close this, statements are being made here I feel I should respond to, but have no wish to be accused of forum shopping.Slatersteven (talk) 10:48, 13 November 2017 (UTC) As this is obviously not going to be closed I have asked for the ANI to be closed. I note that he has never informed anyone of DS, but was informed in the last 12 months.Slatersteven (talk) 14:45, 14 November 2017 (UTC) At ANI I asked for a topic ban after the user rejected the simple request by another edd to just step away for 48 hours. I fell that if the user is not given some kind of sanction they will in fact continue to be disruptive and provocative. As to the comments about him being provoked. In the last interaction the first "about a user statement" made by anyone was this , whilst not aimed at A user it is an attack on anyone who disagrees with him as being politically motivated. Maybe I am missing where he was provoked into making that statement, As far as I can see he was the one deliberately trying to provoke people.Slatersteven (talk) 14:54, 14 November 2017 (UTC) Also not only was he not hated alone, but he attempted to move his comment out of the hat (whilst keeping others hated) .Slatersteven (talk) 15:36, 14 November 2017 (UTC) There was nothing stopping Thucydides411 from removing PA's, that would have been well within policy, edit warring to include his is against policy in a number of ways. It was this fact that led to my ANI, not the PA's themselves.Slatersteven (talk) 18:20, 17 November 2017 (UTC) Statement by James J. Lambden Thucydides411 has been the target of a harassment campaign. It follows the pattern of: Attack him Wait for in-kind response Option A: use his response as evidence of hostility Option B: remove or hat his response alone, to annoy Regardless, Slatersteven is right. One complaint is enough. Close this. James J. Lambden (talk) 00:18, 13 November 2017 (UTC) @MrX: I did not mean to suggest every editor is a witting participant but the pattern is predictable and repeating. See the comments above this diff November 12, 2017 which you linked in your complaint and subsequent removals. I will leave it to Thucydides411 to present previous examples if he chooses to respond here. I believe WP:FORUMSHOP precludes two open complaints. James J. Lambden (talk) 00:49, 13 November 2017 (UTC) Statement by Seraphim System If this is enough for ARBCOM to get involved, there are at least three complaints I want to make - anyone else? Seraphim System 10:57, 13 November 2017 (UTC) Statement by Anythingyouwant I advise any further comments to be put at ANI, pursuant to this comment by an administrator. Anythingyouwant (talk) 18:07, 14 November 2017 (UTC) Statement by SPECIFICO I'm copying some of the evidence I presented at the ANI thread: Admins have sanctioned Thucydides411 twice already for violating DS on ARBAP2. first sanction and then the second sanction Whenever this is mentioned, he responds with a personal theory as to why one or both of these did not really happen, citing among other things his unsuccessful appeal. He's done that several times, and it demonstrates that the sanctions have not caused him to reconsider his behavior. Recent example: . He routinely mischaracterizes good faith content disagreements as POV-pushing by the majority of editors on the Politics articles who are collaborating to reflect mainstream description of facts and events. He accuses editors of following their personal opinions and engages with disparagement and denigration rather than discussion of content, sources, and policy. This behavior is not only at the Russian Interference article; it's on other related articles as well. For those who are not familiar with his conduct, here are some threads that demonstrate his personalized battleground style: ANI And meanwhile he’s been going after Marek on a long list of pages for a long time and has been politely asked over and over to stop.: What's particularly weird, to me, is why Thuc would think that these years-old irrelevant ad hominems against Marek would hold any sway over the current editors Thuc is presumably trying to win to his POV? It seems to me he is so invested in personalizing routine editing communications that he doesn't even realize that the overwhelming majority of editors thinks these ad hominems are pointless and offensive. SPECIFICO talk 18:28, 14 November 2017 (UTC) The most recent incident v. Marek may have precipitated this complaint, but it is only the most recent incident for Thucydides411. His participation on article and user talk pages and Noticeboards has consistently devolved into accusations of personal POV bias and then the further accusation that Admins and the entire WP project overlook policy violations and POV editing that fits a certain political stance. I linked three threads above that give a glimpse of this behavior. I know, TLDR, but you can read any 6-12 inches of it and it all comes in focus. This is a WP:NOTHERE account fighting a crusade against the bias of WP for relying on the weight of mainstream sources. SPECIFICO talk 19:01, 17 November 2017 (UTC) Darouet forgot to post Thucydides' next move after that thread he excerpted. The follow-up was that, because I later referred to Russian psy-ops in trying to ingratiate themselves to members of the Trump team, Thucydides started a complaint about me at BLPN, claiming that my mention of the term psy-ops was a BLP violation.. Here he is disparaging the motives of editors who disagree with his POV. Here he goes after patience-of-a-saint MelanieN SPECIFICO talk 01:21, 20 November 2017 (UTC) It's not right for Darouet to cast aspersions on me and Marek and call each of us hypocrites, citing as his justification the fact that MrX filed this complaint. SPECIFICO talk 01:26, 20 November 2017 (UTC) Statement by Volunteer Marek I was not going to comment here but since User:GoldenRing can't drop this and continues to try and get me for some reason I feel compelled to respond. GR references this comment of mine and says that I am "casting aspersions and personalising this dispute". Nonsense. First, this is AN/I NOT an article talk page. On AN/I we discuss EDITOR'S BEHAVIOR and not content. There's no "personalizing the dispute" here. I mean, if I'm "personalizing the dispute" so is everybody else who's ever commented on ANI including GoldenRing himself. As for "casting aspersions" - again, this is AN/I. We discuss editor's behavior. And yes, if you look at edits by Thucydides411 since mid-December 2016, it's something like 90% on this one article on Russian interference in the US election. Hold up, I can actually give you a more precise number... ... (excel loading) ... Between Dec 20 and Feb 16, Thucydides made 383 edits. Of those, all but ... FOURTEEN, were related to the article Russian Interference in US election. So that's actually 96.3% of edits related to this one article (that does include edits which are to related articles like Julian Assange but even those are a small % of his over all edits). I mean, if you click on his edit history it freakin' looks like this ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------> For the next 500 edits, between Feb 16 and June 88, he did a little better in terms of diversifying his interest with "only" 88% of his edits on Russian interference or related. I can calculate the % for the rest of the edits since then but I'm pretty sure you get the picture. To claim that "it doesn't take much of a look through Thucydides411's edit history to make the SPA characterisation look pretty thin" is absurd. It means that the person "looking" is, well, NOT looking or that they are pretending something is true when it's not. I'd really appreciate it if GoldenRing started bothering to actually look at the diffs and the evidence before opinin' or administratin' in the future. So far their words and action suggest a very cavalier attitude towards both. Volunteer Marek  17:46, 17 November 2017 (UTC) My statement quoted below quoted by Darouet (16:33) is most certainly NOT a personal attack. "Clearly" or otherwise. It's simply a statement describing why Thucydides411 actions on the article have been disruptive and why he has never managed to get a consensus for any of their edits. This is a user who rejects the idea of the article itself full stop. And correspondingly they reject what virtually all reliable sources have to say on the subject. Unsurprisingly then, whenever reliable sources are presented, he simply rejects them. That is not my problem. That is Thucydides411 problem. Note also that Darouet disingenuously omitted the first part of my statement which discusses the content under discourse directly. This is a straight up attempt at misrepresentation and constitutes WP:ASPERSIONS I also don't appreciate Darouet making this false accusation. Accusing others of making personal attacks when they're clearly not, is itself a personal attack. All that Darouet's statement shows is that there have been multiple editors (several more could easily be added) who have gotten extremely frustrated with Thucydides WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT behavior on the talk page. This also addresses the point raised below by MASEM - yes, the talk page is for discussing. But when you keep discussing, and discussing, and discussing, and discussing and can never get anywhere... well, there's obviously a problem. And dollars to Deutschemarks say that it's the one guy who keeps bringing up the same stuff over and over and over and over again, well after everyone else has moved on. And that'd be Thucidedes411. Volunteer Marek  04:44, 20 November 2017 (UTC) Also look at Darouet's claim that " Also note that MrX accused Thucydides411 of WP:TE, when in the course of the RfC, a majority of editors on the page would agree with Thucydides, and not MrX". This is also completely FALSE. At the time the comment was written there were TWO "Supports". There was one "ironic" Support (a violation of WP:POINT in fact). There was one editor (Slatersteven) who was on the fence. Then there was myself and Mr.X who both expressed support although neither one of us had yet to !vote. Then there was Thucydides411, a lone "oppose". That is most definetly not a situation where "a majority of editors on the page would agree with Thucydides, and not MrX". Quite the opposite in fact. Given the blatant falsehood of this claim, and the previous one, I don't know if ANYTHING Darouet claims in his comment should be taken at face value. Volunteer Marek  04:54, 20 November 2017 (UTC) Statement by Darouet At the end of August, MrX stated that they had begun a case against Thucydides411. That was on the same day MrX launched an RfC, asking if communications between Felix Sater, a Putin aid, and a Trump lawyer should be in in the article . Thucydides411 voted to oppose inclusion and ultimately, Sandstein closed the RfC noting that there was no consensus to include the communication. I think the discussion that occurred at that RfC is fairly representative of the vitriol Thucydides411 has faced by a few editors on the page (notably by the complainants here). James J. Lambden writes that Thucydides411 is repeatedly the target of harassment by 1) a personal attack, 2) Thucydides’ response, which is then 3) removed or 4) used against them in an enforcement proceeding. Every one of those events occurs in the RfC. The RfC discussion also demonstrates that what GoldenRing and Masem write is spot on about how this issue is not one-sided. On the same day MrX launched the RfC, Thucydides411 described the Sater communication in the “Threaded discussion” section of the RfC, 16:19, Thucydides411 : “It also doesn't seem to involve any actions taken by the Russian government. Russian actions are, after all, the topic this article purports to cover.” This is the response by Volunteer Marek, MrX, and SPECIFICO: 16:33, Volunteer Marek : “…The problem here for you is that you reject the idea of Russian interference a priori. So to YOU whenever a source tries to explain the WHY and HOW Russian interference happened, of course you're going to think it's not irrelevant because you don't such a thing happened in the first place. But that is YOUR own POV, that is YOU trying to impose your personal opinions on the article, that is YOU refusing to follow the policy of reliable sources. That is YOU breaking Misplaced Pages policy and now, edit warring in contravention of it. Not clear why we should put up with this.” VM’s comment is clearly a personal attack. It’s not horrible in the context of American Politics, but it personalizes the dispute and is clearly disruptive. 17:01, Thucydides411 : "Capitalizing random words doesn't make your point any clearer. This material isn't relevant, but you're trying to coatrack it into the article. And really, you're the last person who should be throwing around accusations of POV-pushing or policy violation." (SPECIFICO removes Thucydides411’s comment as a personal attack but not Volunteer Marek’s ; Thucydides411 restores their comment ) Demonstrating exactly what Lambden describes: removing Thucydides' response defending themself, but not the attack on them. 21:13, Volunteer Marek : "They're not "random". The capitalization stress the "YOU", as in Thucydides411, for a reason - to emphasize that YOU are trying to cram your own personal opinions down everyone's throat here, rather than relying on reliable sources per WP:RS. It's gone on long enough." 17:25, MrX : "Volunteer Marek is exactly right. Thucydides411 is engaged in long-term tendentious editing on this article. His conduct should be reviewed at WP:AE. I began documenting a case three months ago, but unfortunately, I've been too busy to complete and file it." Note that MrX created this sandbox page dedicated to Thucydides411 in May 2017 (the initial documentation included zero diffs), promising some kind of future enforcement action without evidence. MrX left that creepy page, User:MrX/T, in their sandbox for 5+ months (it’s still there). Also note that MrX accused Thucydides411 of WP:TE, when in the course of the RfC, a majority of editors on the page would agree with Thucydides, and not MrX. 23:08, SPECIFICO : "Thuc, please keep your "personal opinions" off this page. WP editing is not about anybody's opinions. It's about conveying the weight of RS discourse on the subject. And by "subject" we mean the subject of this article, which -- as you know -- is not "alleged Russian interference..." RS tell us in some detail that psy-ops to create chatter among folks in Trump's circle is Russian interference. I'm not going to repeat the details here, because the current discussion is more limited in scope. All these Russian-Trumpan connections are understood by RS accounts to be elements of the extensive and wildly successful psy-ops campaign." This isn’t easy to parse, but it’s a totally unconstructive response to Thucydides411’s comment. The full exchange (including comments made on other days) can be viewed here. In brief, all of these editors — those making a case here against Thucydides411 — have been quick to turn content conversations into personal attacks in the past, have failed to assume good faith, and this conduct has helped produce a toxic environment on the page. In that context this complaint comes across as hypocritical, and an effort to force Thucydides411 to stop interacting at the page when plenty of editors there (and the editorial board of the BBC) agree that allegations of Russian interference, whatever their merit or whatever the extent of interference, be described as such. -Darouet (talk) 00:02, 20 November 2017 (UTC) Statement by Objective3000 I fear I won’t be a useful contributor to this complaint – but wanted to add my one penny. Thucydides411 has spent just shy of a year attempting to weaken the article Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections by suggesting that there is little evidence of such and that those that will not accept their view are biased. The editor has consistently claimed that RS use the word ‘’alleged’’. Only, one by one, RS have dropped use of that word. I think we’re down to one out of the six sources that the editor has continued to claim use the word. And yet, they still claim it is in general use. The editor has also spent this time attempting to add a criticism from a writer against one of the pieces of evidence. All of these attempts have failed to gain consensus. But, we are drawn into the exact same debate time and time again. The original report is now just a tiny fraction of the evidence, and yet the editor continues to argue this one point. I’d give diffs; but this is difficult considering the 622 edits the editor has made to this articles talk. This represents a time-sink that doesn’t appear to have aided the article in nearly a year. O3000 (talk) 01:48, 20 November 2017 (UTC) Result concerning Thucydides411 This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above. This thread was temporarily closed between 18:12, 14 November 2017‎ UTC and 14:31, 17 November 2017 UTC. In the meantime, the related AN/I thread was closed without action. I have not read it because most everything at AN/I is a mess. The conduct reported here is in and of itself not terribly bad, but the user has two previous related sanctions. Their personal attacks and edit-warring about them constitute sanctionable misconduct. I recommend a three-month topic ban from Russia-US relations including election-related matters.  Sandstein  16:08, 17 November 2017 (UTC) I agree sanctions are appropriate here, though I'm less convinced it's one-sided. VM's comment Thucydides411 was responding to in the edit warring linked above is perhaps a borderline case, but comments like the last paragraph of this are pretty clear that VM is casting aspersions and personalising this dispute (it doesn't take much of a look through Thucydides411's edit history to make the SPA characterisation look pretty thin).VM is already subject to a one-month topic ban from everything Trump-related and I think that is sufficient as topic bans go for now; I'd also be in favour of an IBAN between Volunteer Marek and Thucydides411 for a bit longer than the topic bans, to make them ease back into the topic without immediately rubbing against each other. GoldenRing (talk) 17:14, 17 November 2017 (UTC) As I mentioned at the AN/I thread, while Thucydides411 should not be edit warring on talk pages in this manner, there are concerns that the removed comments made by Thucydides (which are clearly PAs) had been made in response to other clear PAs by VM and others, which those admins monitoring the page did not remove along with Thucydides. This creates understandable frustration which leads to the EWing behavior if one is singularly being picked out. The actions of several editors all around created a bad situation that it is hard to singularly take Thucydides' actions alone as the problem, hence trouts all around and warnings to all that PAs need to be avoided, period. I will also note particularly in comment to VM's point that Thucydides' has overwhelming spent a lot of time at the talk page for the article, that's exactly what a talk page is for. I know exactly the situation that Thucydides is in from my own experience with GG where I was being criticized for using the talk page as a talk page, primarily because I was not arguing along the lines of the majority of users on the page and required some significant review of the circumstances to present the topic. That's the whole purpose of talk pages to try to resolve issues and not just simply a !vote or who can shout the loudest. Now, there is the WP:TE issue, I agree Thucydides' is clearly engaging in that type of behavior and per my own experience strongly recommend taking a voluntary break from that topic, if a topic ban/block is not otherwise engaged. --MASEM (t) 18:07, 17 November 2017 (UTC) Considering the admin comments above, there seems to be little interest in sanctioning Thucydides411 alone, even though their editing is considered problematic. I don't think that we have the basis, in the form of a well-presented case, for sanctions against others at this time. Accordingly, unless admins object, I'll close this as no action soon.  Sandstein  10:00, 20 November 2017 (UTC) @Sandstein: I do object. I think your proposed topic ban of Thucydides411 is good and necessary for this topic at this time. I don't think it would be helpful for this to just be closed with no action. Others who are part of the same general dispute have recently been T-banned for one month so maybe you might argue proportionality urges a similar duration, but I don't think no action is the right outcome here.Speaking of others who are part of the same general dispute, unless I'm very much mistaken, Volunteer Marek is subject to a one-month topic ban from all edits and articles related to Donald Trump and as far as I can see his edits here are a blatant violation of it. He hasn't even made an attempt to claim that they are covered by BANEX, and anyway they are not. As I proposed an IBAN we might eek out a small exemption for discussing that, but any more general discussion of Tnucydides411's actions should result in a short block (48 hours?) to enforce the ban. GoldenRing (talk) 10:54, 20 November 2017 (UTC) I'll add as well that I'm not very impressed with VM cherry-picking another editor's history in an attempt to substantiate a personal attack. Curiously enough, I had looked at Thucydides411's edit history before making that remark; what I didn't do was go back to January to find the worst-looking bit of it. What I looked at was this. Yes, he edits AP2 articles quite a bit; so do lots of editors. That doesn't make them SPAs. GoldenRing (talk) 10:59, 20 November 2017 (UTC) @GoldenRing: Then as far as I'm concerned you're free to close this with any sanctions concerning Thucydides411 you deem appropriate. As to Volunteer Marek, they are banned "from all edits and articles related to Donald Trump". As far as I can tell, their edits here are not related to Trump, but to Thucydides411.  Sandstein  11:16, 20 November 2017 (UTC) I also object to closing with no action, and support the three-month topic ban from Russia-US relations including election-related matters which Sandstein originally proposed. I don't see Volunteer Marek's comments here as warranting a sanction; it's far-fetched to suggest they violate his topic ban from Donald Trump. Bishonen | talk 11:54, 20 November 2017 (UTC).

Groupuscule

Anythingyouwant

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Anythingyouwant

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

Volunteer Marek (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 04:02, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Anythingyouwant (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/American politics 2 :

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

2. Restoring text challenged by reversion

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

1. Previously banned from post 1935 American politics

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

• Previously given a discretionary sanction for conduct in the area of conflict on 10:46, 27 October 2016 by Vanamonde93 (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA).

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

I'm not sure if this is a 1RR violation, but it is obviously a violation of the "consensus required" provision which is in effect on the page and which it seems admins have decided needs enforcing. The edit was obviously challenged by reversion. The claim that this was a BLP issue is spurious. See also the edit summaries by User:MrX and User:MelanieN . See also discussion on talk page. In particular see comments by MrX, MelanieN and User:Artw in that discussion. Also this comment claims the text says something it doesn't actually say. Also . Also see this comment which brings up WP:TRUTH and WP:GREATWRONGS.  Volunteer Marek  04:02, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

When an editor (me) does what two other editors request - I did not request for you to make that edit and afaict, neither did MrX. I think that was pretty clear from both our comments. Volunteer Marek  09:36, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

@GoldenRing:: " VM says this is "spurious" but other editors here agree with Anythingyouwant" - no, they don't. What page are you reading??? Your comment was made at 16:30. At the time you wrote this FOUR editors (in addition to myself), including TWO administrators said that this clearly is NOT a BLP violation. Those would be Specifico, MelanieN and MrX. TWO editors, Atsme and DHeyward said it was a BLP violation. Two or three didn't address the BLP issue. Since you made your comment TWO additional editors have said it wasn't a BLP violation. If you're gonna participate at WP:AE in an administrative capacity can you please at least read the statements before "summarizing" them?  Volunteer Marek  18:50, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

As to the question of whether it's a BLP violation - it's not. The info is well sourced. The text is straight from the source. Anythingyouwant is pretending on the talk page that the text is something other than what it really is as a pretext for removing it. This is not a BLP vio, this is WP:GAMEing, like User:MrX points out. Just like Anythingyouwant falsely claiming that either I or MrX "requested" he make the edit is WP:GAMEing. Volunteer Marek  18:52, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

And this comment " The second is that MrX reverted the removal of material that was clearly challenged on good-faith BLP grounds" - is completely ass backwards. Anythingyouwant is edit warring, repeatedly inserting challenged content in violation of the discretionary sanction which just recently YOU insisted MUST be enforced, yet here for some reason you want to... sanction the editor making the challenge rather than the one violating DS. What gives?  Volunteer Marek  18:55, 26 November 2017 (UTC) either @Anythingyouwant: - regarding this claim (quote: "You might also take a look at the adjectives used to describe me at this page, and personally I prefer to be called lots of nasty adjectives than to be..."), can you point out any of these "nasty adjectives" which are being "used to describe" you, "at this page"? Cuz I just read the whole thing again and I don't see a single adjective being used to describe you, nasty or otherwise (I skipped Atsme and DHayward's statements for obvious reasons). Volunteer Marek  23:21, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

@Anythingyouwant: - " I'd rather not get bogged down making such a list for you." - in other words, nobody called you any adjectives, nasty or otherwise, and you just made that up. Here, I'll make this list for you: {empty set}. Volunteer Marek  06:42, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

@Anythingyouwant: - yes, the diff does contain the adjective "nasty" but it is not being used to describe you, but rather to describe something else. You claimed, quote: "You might also take a look at the adjectives used to describe me at this page, and personally I prefer to be called lots of nasty adjectives than to be...". This isn't difficult. Why do you insist on completely misrepresenting something which is easy to check? This is very similar to your insistence on the false claim that either I or MrX "requested" you make the edit. Volunteer Marek  06:59, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

@Vanamonde93: That first edit is indeed a revert, of this edit. Anythingyouwant just waited a few days to sneak that revert in. Don't let him bamboozle you. Closely verify every claim he makes. Volunteer Marek  06:59, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

While you're at it you might want to look at this statement by Anythingyouwant right here at WP:AE for another example of WP:WEASELLY misrepresentation of other editors and sources: " I am glad that MrX has finally today agreed that this BLP lead ought to mention Moore has denied dating underage females.. So my statement above about being dishonest is happily no longer applicable". Note how he tries to pretend that it was another user who was at fault, not him, and acts as if he's graciously "forgiving" the other user their error. Which is baloney. Keep in mind that this is after Anythingyouwant was criticized below by an administrator for falsely accusing MrX of dishonesty - so he comes back and tries to make it seem like the other person's fault. @MrX:, have you "finally" agreed to anything? Was there actually disagreement on this in the first place or was the dispute over something else (inserting the "age of consent" stuff in there)? This is actually a straight up false misrepresentation of MrX's position, and a fairly obnoxious way to rewrite the nature of the dispute in a "I'm glad you finally stopped beating your wife" kind of way. Honestly, sketchy tactics like these merit a sanction all on their own. Volunteer Marek  07:09, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

@GoldenRing: - Re . I didn't misread anything. Perhaps you miswrote. Your comment about "others disagree" was clearly meant to insinuate, falsely, that the majority of opinion was against me, when actually the opposite was the case. If you wanted to say "some editors disagreed, others agreed" then that's what you should have written. And frankly, you can always count on ideological supporters - on both sides - to show up and back the editor who matches with their POV. That's why more experienced AE admins usually ignore "the peanut gallery". The difference here is that even editors who can't be accused of being on one side or the other (MelanieN, EvergreenFir, Vanamonde - two admins in there) disagreed with you and Anythingyouwant. Anythingyouwant DID NOT get support or agreement from anyone who's political views are not immediately obvious.

And you're trying to twist the situation up on its head again: "the principle that edits done to address good-faith BLP objections shouldn't be reverted without consensus is a good one". Again, it was Anythingyouwant who was violating the DS sanction, not the person who challenged their edits. Why do you keep trying to make this out to be something it's not? Just a few days ago you were adamant that the "consensus required" provision needs to be enforced. Yet here you're flippin' 180 degrees. Volunteer Marek  09:36, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning Anythingyouwant

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Anythingyouwant

I was indeed banned from post-1932 politics; it was for less than two weeks, from 27 October 2016 to 9 November 2016. The present article is controversial, and my effort here was simply to conform it to reliable sources like any article should be. There is no allegation of a 1RR violation here, and I didn't violate 1RR. The issue here is whether I reinstated an edit that was challenged by User:MrX. I did not.

My edit #1, at 22:20 on 25 November 2017 (with my added language in bold) said that the BLP subject:

did not deny approaching or dating teenagers above the age of consent.

References

1. Borchers, Callum. “Roy Moore’s open letter to Sean Hannity, annotated”, Washington Post (November 16, 2017): “I adamantly deny the allegations of Leigh Corfman and Beverly Nelson, did not date underage girls, and have taken steps to begin a civil action for defamation.”

The edit summary of User:MrX at 22:59 on 25 November 2017 said, “The source does not say that, and this would be too much detail for the lead anyway.” To address his primary objection, I more closely tracked the language of the source (which is quoted in the footnote), so there would be no way anyone could dispute that I was adhering closely to the source.

So, my edit #2 at 01:03 on 26 November 2017(with my added language in bold) said that the BLP subject:

did not deny approaching or dating teenagers who were not underage.

References

1. Borchers, Callum. “Roy Moore’s open letter to Sean Hannity, annotated”, Washington Post (November 16, 2017): “I adamantly deny the allegations of Leigh Corfman and Beverly Nelson, did not date underage girls, and have taken steps to begin a civil action for defamation.”

I did not reinstate any edit of mine, but rather the second edit of mine used not a single word that my first edit used, and the second edit much more closely tracked the source using verbatim language ("underage") from the source, to meet MrX's previous objection that "the source does not say that", as well as to meet User:Volunteer Marek's apparent preference for explicitly saying "underage". See VM's edit at 00:56, 26 November 2017. When an editor (me) does what two other editors request, it kind of seems like a game of gotcha for one of them to file a complaint about it. Incidentally, my second edit used 20% fewer words (four instead of five), given that MrX had said the first edit was too long.

I will add a paragraph below in reply to Melanie. If this thing turns into a typical Misplaced Pages pile-on, so be it, but I am not inclined to participate much more. I feel that the complaint is frivolous, and shouldn't be used as a back door for all kinds of separate old complaints about separate old matters. Anyway, feel free to visit my user talk to request or advise further participation or response from me. Thanks. Anythingyouwant (talk) 06:14, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

@User:MelanieN, I did not visit the user talk page of User:MrX about this matter and haven't visited his user talk in many months (if not years) despite frequent disagreements with him. None of the diffs or edits discussed above were by MelanieN, but she is correct that I visited her user talk today, because I did not think that what I had to say would be appropriate for article talk (if you want to read what we discussed, see the last section). The lead of this BLP presently says the BLP subject "did not deny approaching or dating teenagers." However, in the reference I already quoted above, the BLP subject partly denied that exact thing. So I was trying to make the lead conform better to the sources, and it had nothing to do with righting great wrongs, unless perhaps you consider violating Misplaced Pages policy a "great wrong". I choose not to rely upon WP:BLP at this time, in responding to the present complaint, because I do not want to be seen as using the BLP policy as some kind of habitual excuse, though I think such a view would be mistaken. Anythingyouwant (talk) 06:14, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

@User:Vanamonde93, I also would not support a sentence of the form "

@User:Vanamonde93, you write "So your insistence on including 'but not rape' troubles me." I have insisted upon no such thing. Those words you attribute to me ("but not rape") were never said by me, so please don't attribute them to me anymore, thanks. They were words of User:MelanieN, not me, and I have insisted upon no such language at the Roy Moore article. I have not tried to change the language in that BLP regarding "sexual assault" one iota, either by proposing a specific change at the article's talk page, or by making an actual edit. Let me tell you why. One of the accusations is that the BLP subject shoved the head of an underage girl toward his crotch, and I have no problem characterizing that as an allegation of sexual assault without elaboration, because it's attempted rape. But if we were instead talking about a butt grab being characterized as "sexual assault" by a reliable source, then we absolutely would need to say in the BLP that it's an allegation of sexual assault while also saying what kind of sexual assault. Don't you think people often construe the term "sexual assault" to be something more heinous than a butt grab? Again, this is all hypothetical, because I have not so far objected to the language in the BLP about "sexual assault", it's not part of the present complaint, and you're quoting someone while incorrectly attributing it to me. In the case of the butt grab, I would never (ever, ever) say "but it wasn't rape" and instead might say something like "committed sexual assault by grabbing a woman's posterior" without mentioning rape at all. Anythingyouwant (talk) 07:23, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

@User:Vanamonde93, you say “Anything's claim that 1RR was not violated because the two edits he made had different texts is specious”. I never said that. What I said is that the first edit wasn’t a revert, because I was not undoing any previous edit. Anythingyouwant (talk) 04:22, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

@User:Vanamonde93, thanks for amending your comment. It would be really, really appreciated if you or another uninvolved admin would please answer a fairly straightforward question: assuming arguendo that the second of my two edits was a good faith attempt to change the first edit to meet objections to it, was it “reinstating an edit”? It seems like a reasonable question that I’m asking, and I thought the answer was “no”. Anythingyouwant (talk) 04:47, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

@User:EvergreenFir, since 1RR was not part of the complaint, I did not explain above why there was no 1RR violation. The reason is that the first of my two edits was not a revert, even if you consider the second one to be. The second edit did not have one word in common with the first edit, unless you count the footnote, which I guess makes the second one a revert, but still the first one isn't. Anythingyouwant (talk) 07:54, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

@User:MrX, you say that the first of my two edits that are the basis of this complaint was a revert. That’s incorrect. It’s true that the sentence in the lead was previously edited three days earlier to modify “but did not deny approaching or dating teenagers 16 or older.“ The first of my two edits did not mention 16 or being older than 16, but rather referred to the age of consent as numerous reliable sources do (incidentally, I did not recall the edit three days earlier when I made my edit, and my edit was sourced by including a footnote). Anyway, it continues to amaze me that you apparently continue this effort to make readers think Moore never denied dating teenagers under the age of consent, which would have been illegal. You are deliberately attempting to make our lead be dishonest. I don’t believe your rationalizations one bit. Anythingyouwant (talk) 16:54, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

@User:MrX, credit where credit is due, I am glad that MrX has finally today agreed that this BLP lead ought to mention Moore has denied dating underage females.. So my statement above about being dishonest is happily no longer applicable. Anythingyouwant (talk) 17:56, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

@User:MrX, I have given you credit where credit is due, but that does not change the fact that you have been fighting tooth and nail for quite a long while that this BLP lead should not give any readers any clue that there is an age of consent in Alabama separating legal from illegal actions. You now say, "'above the age of consent' appears nowhere in the source that you cited". I don't know what edit by me you're referring to, but I have been citing plenty of reliable sources, as I did in the two edits that VM is exercised about. Anythingyouwant (talk) 18:16, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

@User:GoldenRing, you’re correct that both of the two edits of mine cited by VM mentioned WP:BLP in the edit summaries. But I do not need to rely on WP:BLP to defend myself here. The second of my two edits did not “reinstate” the first, but rather was a good faith attempt to change the first edit to meet objections to it. I understand the word “reinstate” the same way as it’s commonly used at Misplaced Pages, for example at WP:Reverting which says “if you make an edit which is good-faith reverted, do not simply reinstate your edit – leave the status quo up, or try an alternative way to make the change that includes feedback from the other editor.” Reinstating is not the same as trying an alternative way to make the change that includes feedback from the other editor, IMHO. But I think you’re right that WP:BLP is applicable too. Anythingyouwant (talk) 17:13, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

@User:My very best wishes, at the sub-article you are referring to, I self-reverted the edit you are objecting to. It was my mistake. The reason I got confused is because the warning template at that article's talk page is BLP-based and therefore much smaller and insignificant-looking than the politics-based template at Talk:Roy Moore, even though they involve the exact same level of sanctions. That sort of mistake by me won't happen again, and I also plan on requesting a redesign so that the two templates do not look so different from each other. Anythingyouwant (talk) 18:24, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

@User:My very best wishes, the objection to the term "age of consent" that MrX gave in his edit summary was "The source does not say that". So, I switched to the term "underage" which the source does explicitly use (i.e. the source says "did not date underage girls", emphasis added). I believe MrX's edit summary was frivolous, but I (valiantly) tried in good faith to include his feedback in my second edit, by more closely tracking the cited source as he requested. Anyway, saying in a BLP lead that a BLP subject did not deny something that he did partly deny is a gross BLP violation if there ever was one. Anythingyouwant (talk) 19:20, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

@User:My very best wishes, my first of two edits was reverted, with an edit summary claiming the edit was not supported by the cited source. Have you looked to see whether you think my first edit was supported by the cited source? I assume the edit summary meant that the cited source did not specifically use the term “age of consent”. So in my second edit I switched to the term that the cited source did use, which was “underage”. Do you think the second edit was supported by the cited source? You have addressed none of this, and instead make accusations about gaming. Do you ever edit articles? Have I done something offensive to you that causes you to make these accusations? Anythingyouwant (talk) 05:18, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

@User:Bishonen, you think it’s fine and dandy for a BLP lead to say the BLP subject has not denied something, even though uncontradicted reliable sources say he has partly denied it? Anythingyouwant (talk) 22:24, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

@User:Neutrality, I commented previously at this page: “my statement above about being dishonest is happily no longer applicable.” If you have been aware of that comment by me, but have chosen to ignore and omit it, then I very sharply disagree with your tactics. You might also take a look at the adjectives used to describe me at this page, and personally I prefer to be called lots of nasty adjectives than to be subjected to such a flawed proceeding as this one. I’ve said many times that Misplaced Pages needs a jury system to apply clear rules applicable to everyone equally rather than adhoc centralized proceedings that are deeply colored by political beliefs. Anythingyouwant (talk) 22:57, 26 November 2017 (UTC) supplemented23:17, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

@User:Volunteer Marek, you write above "can you point out any of these 'nasty adjectives' which are being 'used to describe' you, 'at this page'?" I'd rather not get bogged down making such a list for you. But I will say that the word "nasty" qualifies as a nasty adjective. Anythingyouwant (talk) 23:33, 26 November 2017 (UTC)amended23:41, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

@User:Volunteer Marek, see the diff I just provided to you for the word “nasty”. Anythingyouwant (talk) 06:50, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

@Volunteer Marek you’re mistaken, and anyone who’s interested can look at the diffs themselves. Anythingyouwant (talk) 07:05, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

@User:Dennis Brown, yes I could try to be more patient, do RFCs, stuff like that. But honestly, I am not relying upon BLP policy here, because I haven’t seen a need to. Are you folks really saying that it’s “reinstating an edit” to make a similar edit that attempts in good faith to meet the objections to the initial edit? If that’s really the rule, then IMHO you ought to just slap 0RR on the article and be done with it. Anyway, if you folks think I was really reinstating an edit, then I will stop doing it and be more patient. Anythingyouwant (talk) 23:54, 26 November 2017 (UTC) expanded00:11, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

@User:Drmies, your statement “this was no BLP violation--this was just POV edit warring which deserves a sanction” is conclusory. Anythingyouwant (talk) 03:31, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

Statement by SPECIFICO

At the time of Anythingyouwant's previous short-term TBAN from American Politics (specified to end after the election) I was skeptical that the behavior would get any better after the election. Sure enough it has not. If anything it's gotten worse. As I said at the time we discussed that 2016 complaint, this behavior appears to be an extension of this editor's disruptive behavior relating to Abortion, for which Arbcom imposed a permanent TBAN. As is widely reported, there are many diehard supporters of the Trump Administration and the Republican congressional majority who are motivated largely or entirely by the expectation that Trump and the Republican senate will appoint judges and pursue policies to promote "pro-life" policies and judicial rulings. Anythingyouwant is banned from pages having to do with "Abortion, broadly construed" and given Anythingyouwant's demonstrably extreme and egregious POV editing in that topic, I think that this should have been interpreted to include any aspect of American Politics that relates to POV-pushing that might favor limiting womens' health care. This would include anything related to the Trump Admininstration, the Congress, the Judiciary, or US elections. Also note that, per ARBAP2, repeated violations are to be met with escalating remedies. A warning here would mean the escalator is going down. SPECIFICO talk 04:19, 26 November 2017 (UTC) Updated, clarified. 15:48, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

Anythingyouwant has a long history of disruption, POV-pushing, and personal attacks at American Politics articles. I also find the BLP thing really disingenuous, because one of Anythingyouwant's most egregious battles this year was to insist on a nasty political-POV BLP smear at Murder of Seth Rich long after this narrative was debunked and demonstrated to be fake news promoted by various political operatives and Fox News. Also long after the victim's family had pleaded with the promoters of these predatory conspiracy theories to cease and desist. See and Anything's appeal, in which the Admin affirms Anything's bad behavior, is full of promises to behave better. Not much sign of that. There are more recent examples, but not in such a compact, easily presented form. SPECIFICO talk 18:33, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

The reason for the Arbcom cases, two of them, and the DS regime, is that these politics articles are full of difficult issues that require particularly careful and extensive collaboration among the editors. When POV editors push these things to or beyond the limit, it's very disheartening to see Admins at AE bending over backwards to find reasons not to enforce DS. Meanwhile the topic area is bleeding good editors, and the ones who are left there are largely self-selected warriors or political activists or editors who deny WP's core sourcing policy to reflect the weight of mainstream sources. SPECIFICO talk 00:03, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

Statement by involved MelanieN

Regarding these edits, I chided Anythingyouwant in two places - the article talk page and my own talk page - for unilaterally inserting new language into a disputed section of the article without proposing it first at the talk page, where that very issue is under active discussion. I considered this to be against Misplaced Pages's tradition of consensus. I reverted his addition and told him to get agreement on the talk page first. I did not consider this action of his to be a technical AE violation, but I am WP:INVOLVED at that article so this should not be regarded as administrator opinion. I note that he displayed here two longstanding habits of his: claiming that his edits are necessary to correct "blatant BLP violations", and going to the other person's user talk page to continue the argument privately. --MelanieN (talk) 04:40, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

Statement by Atsme

I reviewed the edits, and Anything's first edit was an add-on not a revert. He probably should've reverted it from the lede, and moved it into the body after rewriting it to make it compliant with BLP and NPOV. I'm dismayed and somewhat surprised that Volunteer Marek and SPECIFICO are even here after recently being warned in another AE case "to edit collegially and assume good faith." It doesn't appear either have AGF in this situation. The problem I see at the article is a rather serious BLP coatrack issue which justifies what Anything attempted to do. Allegations involving such a serious matter certainly do not belong in the lede of a BLP, and cannot be viewed as anything but BLP coatrack and POV considering the political aspects and upcoming elections. WP:LABEL states that value laden labels may, and in this case did express contentious opinion and are best avoided unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject, in which case use in-text attribution. The 1st cited source doesn't fully support what was written in the article, and in fact, it appears WP:SYNTH was used because 3 different sources were used and statements cherrypicked to create the allegation that is written in the lede. That is noncompliance with NPOV; therefore, it is also a violation of BLP - you cannot separate the two because BLP requires strict adherence to NPOV. We're also dealing with WP:RECENTISM, WP:NOTNEWS and analytical speculation by journalists. WP:BLP policy requires that we take particular care when adding information about living persons to any Misplaced Pages page. Such material requires a high degree of sensitivity, and strict adherence to Misplaced Pages's three core content policies WP:NPOV, WP:V and WP:OR, all of which are inseparable from BLP policy; therefore, in instances when material is challenged as noncompliant as what Anything did here, it was the right thing to do. 05:34, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

If the article does prove to be a WP:POVFORK or WP:ATTACKPAGE which makes it noncompliant with BLP, focusing on Anything's two edits seems rather trivial. The article section is nothing but allegation after allegation, and since none of the allegations can be/have been proven, this situation gives off the smell of a politician being tried in the court of public opinion while WP is laying down the scaffolding. The man has denied the allegations, yet weight was given to a single comment he made in an exclusive interview on Hannity (primary source) - and the pundits went wild with their analytical speculation - hardly what I consider fact-based material. The timing of these allegations comes at a time just prior to an important election in that state - there are articles on WP about Trump that attempt to make the entire focus about the timing - so where is our "editorial discretion" now? Where is the "high degree of sensitivity" we're supposed to apply when it comes to such issues? The article section even includes the names of alleged victims (see WP:BLPNAME) who purportedly were under age at the time. How is that not a BLP vio? The way the story is being handled by MSM smells a lot like a newsy political hit piece that focuses on alleged incidents purportedly that took place decades ago. Oh, and since there is no such article about Al Franken considering he admitted to the conduct, how can we deny political motivation behind any of the Moore activity? Based on my understanding of NPOV and BLP, this case should be about restoring the BLP issues after they were challenged. I am truly disappointed over the way this case is being handled. 15:58, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

MrX - who do you think determines whether there's a BLP violation or not? Anything did attempt to "address concerns" after challenging the material as a BLP vio. We are discussing allegations in the lead that disparage a living person and imply Child molestation using weasel words such as "claims surfaced" without in-text attribution, and then part of the statement, pursued numerous teenage girls and sexually assaulted some of them was linked (per my example here) to another WP article that is unambiguously a POVFORK that was recently nominated for deletion and resulted in a non-admin close and the following closing statement: No prejudice against re-nomination after the election is done. What?!! Perhaps GoldenRing can advise as to the acceptability of such a close, and the link at the BLP to a highly controversial POVFORK closed under questionable circumstances. The material chosen and the way it was presented fails the BLP requirements of a high degree of sensitivity and strict adherence to NPOV. The onus is on the editor(s) restoring challenged material without obtaining consensus first, and based on the edit history there were 3 editors involved in restoring challenged material after the BLP concerns were addressed. 18:42, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

Well, MrX, I'm not surprised by your response. Happy editing! 22:45, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

Statement by DHeyward

This is a specious filing. This edit , offered as a "violation" is arguably a necessary edit to avoid the implication of criminal activity. Having a relationship with a nineteen-year-old is legally much different than having a relationship with a fifteen-year-old. The edit clearly clarified that "teen" isn't the boundary for consent. Opposing that edit should be a BLP violation and the editor reverting that edit should be sanctioned for a BLP violation. That edit was not a politically motivated or biased edit. The original text was "but did not deny approaching or dating teenagers." and the text added was "but did not deny approaching or dating teenagers above the age of consent." Teenagers that are 18 or 19 are not "girls" and the distinction is necessary and proper given that the construct is around "girls." It did not defend Moore against any impropriety that may have occurred or put any other living person in a negative light. The person reverting or opposing that edit should at least be warned and Anythingyouwant commended for clarifying a comment that implied criminal activity. --DHeyward (talk) 06:27, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

Vanamonde your statement is confusing. Are you making a nuanced distinction between "sexual assault" and "rape" of underage girls? Under what context would you make that distinction and how does it not have BLP implications? I am not aware of the distinctions you and your peers seem to be making. There are distinctions regarding consent however. A teenage girl cannot consent to sexual contact and all such contact is sexual assault. A teenage woman can consent to sexual contact and consensual contact is not sexual assault. Isn't "teenager" too vague a term to use given that it broadly encompasses acts that can interpreted as statutorily illegal if the impression is that "teenager" is being used to describe both women and girls? --DHeyward (talk) 07:29, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

P.S. Vanamonde93 please change your signature to match your username. Admins in particular should not be difficult to ping because there is a mismatch in what is displayed. What's the point? --DHeyward (talk) 07:34, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

Statement by uninvolved EvergreenFir

Saw this in my watchlist and thought I'd comment while trying to fall asleep.

This appears to be a 1RR violation to me. Anythinguyouwant suggests that because the material was not restored verbatim it does not constitute restoration/reversion. However, from WP:EW, "A "revert" means any edit (or administrative action) that reverses the actions of other editors, in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material" (emphasis added). The meaning of the material remained the same and the same reference was used. The third edit further violates the "consensus required" part of the active remedy.

Unless someone can demonstrate this is a persistent problem (an incident a year ago doesn't make this persistent but does show this an issue in this topic), I'm inclined to think a formal warning would be best. EvergreenFir (talk) 07:49, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

AYW, VM brings up 1RR in the first sentence of this report. MrX's diffs below make it clear to me that this was both a 1RR violation and a failure to establish consensus. That so many attempts were made to insert the same material, as well as the comments about MrX, perhaps a warning alone is insufficient. EvergreenFir (talk) 07:49, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

Statement by Dervorguilla

@Vanamonde93: Yes, it may be true that a neutral sentence would not be "

Statement by Kingsindian

I have no comment on the complaint, but a comment about TonyBallioni's statement that the "consensus required" provision is a tool to enforce WP:ONUS and WP:BLP, a claim which does not make any sense. WP:ONUS is a much older and well-established policy and is applicable site-wide. One does not need any further rules to "enforce" it. And most areas on Misplaced Pages seem to work fine without this extra rule.

The main problem with the "consensus required" provision is that most of the time on Misplaced Pages, consensus is, by explicit policy, silent and implicit, and is not always a bright line. For instance, someone WP:BOLDly adds content to the page, someone else objects, the first person rephrases, and so on. Sometimes this is hashed out on the talk page and someone else tries a phrasing which is acceptable to all. This is normal and desirable. The effect of this provision will be more of these kinds of complaints, nothing more. And, from my experience in ARBPIA, when one "side" gets sanctioned, there will be retaliatory complaints from the "other side".

The version of 1RR used in ARBPIA is a clear, bright line: if an edit is reverted, the editor shouldn't reinstate the material within 24 hours. That is all that is required. The extra bureaucracy is needless and harmful. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 08:48, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

It is unfortunate but not surprising that TonyBallioni does not see, or indeed even acknowledge any of the issues I raised. By all means, proceed to burn your fingers before learning to fear the flame. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 13:01, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

Statement by MrX

On the talk page, I said that Anythingyouwant has repeatedly inserted the age of consent material (into the lead) without obtaining consensus. I want to back that up with evidence:

• November 12, 2017
• November 12, 2017
• November 19, 2017
• November 20, 2017
• November 25, 2017

This should clear up any doubt that his first edit yesterday was a reversion, of this edit by Nick845 made three days earlier. Obviously, the last four of these are also reinstating challenged edits without obtaining firm consensus on the talk page.

A couple of editors seem intent on whitewashing the allegations against Moore. I'm particularly unimpressed with DHeyward's first ever edit to the article here.- MrX 14:25, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

• @GoldenRing: Something has to actually be a BLP violation before restoring it becomes a problem. That is unambiguously not the case here, and your statement serves only to perpetuates the myth that if any editor removes content while claiming a BLP violation, it's automatically true. In fact, this type of WP:GAMING of our policies was a major factor in the American Politics Arbcom case that resulted in an editor being topic banned.- MrX 17:45, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

• @Anythingyouwant: You're way out of line attacking my integrity with spurious accusations like "You are deliberately attempting to make our lead be dishonest." It's particularly troublesome given that I specifically removed content that you added to a BLP that appeared nowhere in the cited source. "above the age of consent" appears nowhere in the source that you cited for your edit. I'm the one who should be crying BLP. I removed unsourced content from a BLP per WP:BLPSOURCE.

As far the diffs above are concerned, they speak for themselves.- MrX 18:06, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

• No, Atsme. Just no. All the wikibabble in the world isn't going to convince me that you actually understand WP:BLP.- MrX 19:01, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

Statement by MarkBernstein

The proposition that the invocation of BLP was is “in good faith” is preposterous and insupportable. MarkBernstein (talk) 16:46, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

Statement by My very best wishes

First of all, there were several obvious violations of the "consensus required" restriction. One of them was demonstrated in diffs initially brought by VM. Another one was this edit by A. where he reinserted yet another content challenged through reversion here . This is not related to BLP, and this is something A. agreed about .

@Anythingyouwant. Yes, I see - you self-reverted 6 minutes after my comment on your talk page. Acknowledged. But honestly, your argument that "above the age of consent" and "who were not underage" (both linked to the same page, Age of consent) are different does not look convincing to me. Perhaps it looks convincing for admins? I do not know. My very best wishes (talk) 19:00, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

@Anythingyouwant. I think that changing a couple of words (but leaving exactly the same meaning and linking to the same wikipage), only to claim this is not reinsertion of the same content, is a typical example of gaming the rules. My very best wishes (talk) 05:07, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

Second, I think admins should determine if the edits by A. were actually fixing any obvious BLP violation. I think the content which existed prior to the edits by A. was already well sourced and discussed numerous times by other contributors. That was only a slight rewording by A. If it was not fixing an obvious BLP violation by A., then it only makes things worse. Claiming non-existent BLP violation to POV-push is a common "strategy" that should not be endorsed by admins.

As before, my suggestion would be to never use this complex editing restriction and remove it from all pages. However, if admins want to be consistent, there is probably no any other logical approach, but to enforce the editing restriction. My very best wishes (talk) 18:12, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

Probably the worst possible decision would be to keep these sanctions on pages and selectively sanction some contributors, but do not sanction others on the basis of obviously bogus BLP claims, as in this case. My very best wishes (talk) 04:52, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

Statement by Neutrality

I have edited the Moore pages in the past, but am not part of the specific dispute at issue. Leaving aside the revert issue: I want to express alarm at Anythingyouwant's remarks about MrX ("You are deliberately attempting to make our lead be dishonest."). I find this remark untrue, uncivil, and reflective of a battleground approach to editing that is unproductive. Neutrality 22:52, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Anythingyouwant

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• Took a look at this since I was pinged. Had I just seen that revert, I might have excused it; but I have to say I'm not impressed by some of the commentary on the talk page. In particular, a neutral sentence on Misplaced Pages might be "

  Anything, to be clear, I'm not terribly happy with the apparent attempts to use "teenagers" (which includes underage people) rather than a more precise category. But I do not see how that excuses what you have been trying to do. I am far from convinced that the general public sees rape and sexual assault to mean the same thing (I personally cannot think of any conversation I have had among my peers where somebody has had that misconception). So your insistence on including "but not rape" troubles me. To expand on what I have said above: a common pattern on articles about controversial political figures is that when a statement along the lines of "person X did this bad thing" is inserted, it is followed by "but they didn't do this other thing, which is worse". That, by its very nature, is coatracking, and not neutral. Vanamonde (talk) 07:05, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

  Tl;DR The BLP exemption does not apply in this situation, because the the edits in question were not removing BLP violating content, but were adding commentary to a statement which was certainly not a clear-cut BLP vio. Also, Anything's claim that 1RR was not violated because the two edits he made had different texts is specious: the revert restrictions very clearly apply to all reverts, not to a specific edit, and the two additions were not fundamentally different in any case. Vanamonde (talk) 04:16, 27 November 2017 (UTC) I misread. 1RR may not have been violated; the issue with not obtaining consensus remains. Vanamonde (talk) 04:31, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

• No comment on the merits of the case, but confirming before I get asked by the regulars here that I did intentionally place the article under consensus required restrictions, and that should it be determined that they were violated, I think sanctions would be appropriate. Consensus required is simply giving admins the tools to enforce WP:ONUS, which is especially important on American politics and BLP articles. This is both, so enforcing that policy is especially important. TonyBallioni (talk) 07:20, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
  • Kingsindian: consensus required is a bright line to enforce ONUS and prevent edit warring just as 1RR is a bright line to enforce the edit warring policy. Having a policy predate a specific sanctions regime does not somehow mean that the sanctions aren’t a way of enforcing the policy. TonyBallioni (talk) 12:43, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
  • Bishonen, to our shame ONUS is one of the most frequently ignored policies on this website (which I get isn't always a huge deal, per IAR), but in cases involving living people or involving highly visible pages where the public might be using us as their first source of information on a person or topic, it becomes probably the single most important policy we have. 1RR without a consensus required requirement sets up gaming reverts even more than the complaints of gaming consensus required: take this scenario: Editor X inserts a controversial passage that is sourced. Editor Y reverts him. Editor X has not reverted yet so it is restored as his one revert and he threatens to take anyone who removes it again to ANI or AE for edit warring. Cases like this do happen, and the consensus required provision prevents it and protects both living people and the public who are reading our articles. Discretionary sanctions, like every policy on this site first and foremost exist to serve the reader: in the case of the consensus required restriction by making sure any information presented is agreed upon. In this case there was a BLP argument, but I do not think that the article at the time was a BLP violation that required ignoring page level sanctions. I still don't have an opinion on the specifics of this case, but I think as Coffee pointed out at the last case, there has never been a consensus to remove that restriction, even if there are vocal opponents of it. It is a restriction that works and helps our readers. I stand behind it, but think that others should decide if it was violated here, as I would for any page I applied restrictions to. (Also, I courtesy pinged since he is always discussed when these come here). TonyBallioni (talk) 22:37, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
    • TL;DR without the philosophy: 1RR doesn't work on contentious topics without consensus required and is subject to gaming. That is bad for our readers and the living subjects of our articles. I don't do much AE or discretionary sanctions intentionally, but I stand behind these page level restrictions. TonyBallioni (talk) 23:21, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
• There are two issues I can see here: Anythingyouwant appears to have violated the consensus required provision in force on this page but claimed the BLP exemption. VM says this is "spurious" but other editors here agree with Anythingyouwant. I'm generally reluctant to sanction editors for complying with the BLP policy in good faith, even if consensus turns out to be against them. Anythingyouwant would have been well advised to report this to BLPN, perhaps, but I'm reluctant to sanction for this. The second is that MrX reverted the removal of material that was clearly challenged on good-faith BLP grounds. This would ordinarily be sanctionable under the DS in force for BLPs. I'm still undecided whether either of these warrants sanctions. GoldenRing (talk) 16:30, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
  • @Volunteer Marek: And a month before that I was here arguing that the same restriction shouldn't be enforced against you, remember? I'm not here arguing that this restriction should never be enforced, merely that it is not the only rule to consider when deciding whether sanctions are appropriate (and, in your case, I argued for leniency anyway, and you got it). As for what I insinuated, I suppose if you are determined to read it that way then you'll read it that way; my point, as I've reiterated, is that edits made to address BLP concerns should not be reverted without consensus; since other editors in good standing agree that there is a BLP concern - alright, some other editors, since you insist on it - the concern should not be dismissed as CRYBLP but should be discussed and a consensus reached. GoldenRing (talk) 09:53, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
• I'm unhappy about sanctioning anybody for technical "consensus required" violations. For some time now, there has been little appetite among admins for doing so, even though placing the restriction and enforcing it still has a supporter in Tony, and even though the creator of it, Coffee, made a parachuting-in appearance in another recent AE discussion (here's a link to the discussion just before GoldenRing closed it), sensationally stating that the provision "is to stay" , and that ArbCom has said so (not in my world they haven't). Am I missing something, Tony? Because you obviously feel strongly about it — you made a similar comment in the earlier discussion — whereas I for my part tend to agree with Kingsindian, above, that WP:ONUS stands on its own feet as well-established policy, and can be enforced well enough without any special provision. That said, I disagree with GoldenRing that Anything "clearly" challenged the material he removed "on good-faith BLP grounds"; IMO Anything cried BLP unreasonably. That's just my opinion (but then your belief that he did it out of BLP concerns is just your opinion, GoldenRing). GoldenRing's statement that "other editors here agree with Anythingyouwant" about the BLP concerns is misleading, however, and not mere opinion, as most editors here have not agreed with Anythingyouwant. Compare Volunteer Marek's timeline for agreement and disagreement. I'm not sure about any sanctions here. But if anybody's to be sanctioned, it's Anythingyouwant, and I wouldn't object or oppose if he was. Sanctioning MrX for reverting Anything's removals, which GoldenRing offers as "ordinarily.. sanctionable under the DS in force for BLPs", would just be wild, and I'd object strongly. Bishonen | talk 22:17, 26 November 2017 (UTC).

• @Bishonen: I thought Volunteer Marek's misreading of my comments was so outrageous that it didn't need commenting on, but since you seem to be picking up on it, I'll state the obvious: that there are "other editors who agree with" Anythingyouwant is not inconsistent with VM's ability to list those other editors and my remarks mean exactly what they say; they are certainly not intended to be misleading. My point is that this is not Anythingyouwant pleading BLP against the whole world; there are other editors in good standing who agree with him and so we should AGF and not dismiss the BLP claim out of hand. I said that the removal was clearly on BLP grounds because the edit summary said "per WP:NPOV and WP:BLP" - it doesn't get a lot clearer. And while the BLP policy speaks specifically about material deleted to address BLP concerns not being restored without consensus, the principle that edits done to address good-faith BLP objections shouldn't be reverted without consensus is a good one that we shouldn't attempt to weaken here.My personal opinion of the BLP claim chimes with that of Dennis Brown and I won't reiterate what he has said; but we should not be in the business of sanctioning editors for clarifying that someone has not confessed to a crime. GoldenRing (talk) 09:21, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

• Looks like it might be a technical violation, but there were some BLP consideration. Honestly, this straddles the fence between WP:CRYBLP and genuine BLP concerns, but if it erred, it erred on the side of protecting the individual, the lesser of the two available evils here. Anythingyouwant, it would probably be good if you didn't push these borderline cases so hard and used a little patience instead. While I personally do not recommend anything stronger than an admonishment, I don't expect to protest if stronger sanctions are given. This was avoidable on your part, and my gut says you knew the risk when you made the edits. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 23:22, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
• I'm not entirely with Dennis Brown, but our guts seem to agree: I also think that Anythingyouwant knew what they were doing. I have defended the BLP in Judge Moore-related articles a few times, and I wish that the "accusations" article didn't exist, but this was no BLP violation--this was just POV edit warring which deserves a sanction. Drmies (talk) 03:14, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

Favonian