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Talk:Origin of the Albanians

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Aigest (talk | contribs) at 08:20, 19 December 2017 (→E-V13 Figure restored). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Movements of Albanians in Illyria chronology

Recently I was reading Vladimir Orel's etymological dictionary, in the preface (here's the page ) I read this particular sentence: "The Proto-Albanans migration to Illyria via the Eastern Slopes of the Balkans must have taken place before (but not considerably earlier than) their contact with Romance speakers at the end of the Proto-Albanian period in the history of the Albanian language". A page before () clarifies that Proto-Albanian precedes the contacts with Latin "before the I-II centuries CE" Shouldn't this be included? Perhaps added somewhere at "Thracian or Dacian origin"?

The arguments against the Illyrian origin

Same situation as with The arguments in favour of the Illyrian origin, but reversed. Here we see the tendency to minimize the number of these arguments with intention to show "weakness" of the scholars who dispute the Illyrian origin of Albanians. We see J. V. A. Fine rephrasing V. I. Georgiev's arguments and mentions 6 of them. From the same study by V. I. Georgiev, which J. V. A. Fine cites, we see him listing 7 arguments against the Illyrian origin of the Albanians. In 1977 publication, V. I. Georgiev formulates 15 arguments against the Illyrian origin of the Albanians. We should also remember at this point the 12 arguments by Gustav Weigand, which we also have available in Albanian. Not to make this post too long, there are numerous other scholars which elaborate these arguments in detail, question is; how did we manage to compose only 5 arguments and by what criteria were they selected!? Seems like some random editors pre-selected them, according to their own imagination, without signing down a single author. Anonymous wikipedian editors are not entitled to decide upon themselves which arguments should be listed and which should not be listed, that is why we are always referring to accredited authorities who sign themselves with their names and surnames. Such procedures are against Misplaced Pages's NPOV policy https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view .

Other authors who discussed arguments against the Illyrian origin of the Albanians:

http://inslav.ru/publication/kaluzhskaya-i-paleobalkanskie-relikty-v-sovremennyh-balkanskih-yazykah-k-probleme-rumyno <-------- pages 10-11

https://archive.org/stream/KaplanBurovi-WhoAreAlbanians/K.Burovic-Who_Are_Albanians#page/n35/mode/2up <--------- pages 70-71

http://www.jazykovy-koutek.cz/wp-content/albanstina_20141311_FINAL.pdf <--------- pages 21-23

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Aleksandër I Madh Është Shqipëtar (talk • contribs) 12:42, 13 December 2017 (UTC) Aleksandër I Madh Është Shqipëtar (talk) 12:53, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

Please explain succinctly what you hope to accomplish by subjecting us all to enormous talk page rants, including in fields where you clearly ? Have a nice day. --Calthinus (talk) 15:29, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
you're assuming too much.Aleksandër I Madh Është Shqipëtar (talk) 08:11, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
Nope, i say editors are assuming to little here Aleksandër I Madh Është Shqipëtar. Curious to know what was with the whole delete the origins of the Albanians article thing? Not sure if your aware but when an article is deleted, the contents of a talkpage also gets deleted. Yet here you are time and again, devoting much energy and efforts of placing large blocks of text in the talkpage toward what appears to be the hope of achieving something, yet not making a single edit to the main page. Quite interesting.Resnjari (talk) 08:33, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

E-V13 Figure restored

I restored the figure because it was pertinent to the article. This section is called genetic studies on Albanians not on Europeans. Almost 40% of the Albanians belong to E V13 Haplogroup and having that picture makes more sense. Aigest (talk) 09:07, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

This shows all Albania as the peak. But the peak is in North Albania and Kosovo, and there is a secondary peak in Southern Greece, while the E-V13 in Romanians and Bulgarians is vastly underrepresented.
Aigest I deleted it as it was outdated and no longer considered correct. It presents E-V13 has having a simple peak in Central Albania and declining as you regularly with distance from there. But this isn't correct as among Albanians there are differences regarding E-V13 frequency. Overall Albanians are probably 30-37% but in Kosovo it peaks at 45% (Pericic et al) but much lower frequencies have been seen for other Albanian regions-- Battaglia had Tirana at only 24% (that's lower than some regions of Bulgarians, Romanians and Greeks) and Ferri had Tosks as a whole with 28% for all E1b1b (see here : ], I am not a fan of Dienekes' claims about Albanian genetics but he is still convenient for a link), which is not all E-V13, while Ghegs had 41%. So you see that among Albanians it is much more common among Ghegs especially in Kosovo, and declines as you go South (I think the Tirana sample may have been heavily Tosk). Macedonian Albanians, also Gheg in the sample, had 35%.
Meanwhile, the Tosks actually have less E1b1b than Greeks, especially Greeks from the South-- there is a secondary peak in Southern Greece where it even reaches up to 40%. Zalloua 2008 had it at 44% -- that's almost as high as Kosovo, though admittedly his sample size of 44 could've been bigger.
Also the map is horribly wrong for many parts of the Balkans especially concerning Bulgarians and Romanians. Here, you can see the distribution of hte haplogroup in Bulgaria -- ] . Although the map portrays Bulgarians as 5-10% E-V13 this is hilariously false-- Bulgarians overall are nearly 20%. Bulgarians from Razgrad, if we forgive the small sub-sample size, are 38% (!) percent. The map has E-V13 decreasing as you go east in Bulgaria but the opposite is true-- the western parts of Bulgaria have the least E-V13. As for Romania, I've blabbed a lot already, but at least Wallachia is also like 20% (])-- not 5-10%. There's tons of other errors. Overall the map is badly outdated and misleading and I would be fine with keeping it if it were correct but it is very much not correct. --Calthinus (talk) 17:56, 18 December 2017 (UTC)
P.S. although not really relevant its badly wrong in Western Europe too. There's a peak in Marseille, France. The current explanation last I saw in the literature for that is that it's due to historical Greek not Albanian settlement in the area. Meanwhile there are random towns in Britain which have high percentages and this is attributed to "Illyrian soldiers". It seems like it is time for a new map. Maybe I'll make it myself. --Calthinus (talk) 18:02, 18 December 2017 (UTC)
While map may its own little problems, in general it is ok. This map is not about peak numbers but overall percentage on population. While there are cases of peak small areas (villages or cities) in total that would mean nothing. While in Albania the total percentage of people belonging to E-V13 is 33% (45% in Kosovo) in Bulgaria the total percentage of people belonging to E-V13 is 16 %, in continental Greece 18%, in Serbia 18%, in Italy 6%, in France 4% etc. The map shows that exactly. Bests Aigest (talk) 08:19, 19 December 2017 (UTC)
  1. https://archive.org/stream/TheEarlyMedievalBalkans/The%20Early%20Medieval%20Balkans#page/n35/mode/2up
  2. https://www.jstor.org/stable/4205776
  3. https://archive.org/details/1.TrakiteITehniatEzikAkad.VladimirGeorgievBAN1977
  4. http://www.revistaperpjekja.org/images/stories/botimet/perpjekja_03.pdf
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