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If you are genuinely serious about violations of civility, I suggest you remove or strikeout your comments about MONGO's block log. Regardless of the merit of your decision, using blocks that happened a decade ago as justification for a topic ban only makes you look bad and seems incredibly uncharitable and uncivil. Toa Nidhiki05 16:02, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

No. Although the blocks are old, which I noted, they are relevant insofar as they indicate that this is not the first instance of misconduct by MONGO. And that is a fact that is relevant, for me, in determining the sanction to be imposed. Indicating this is not incivil. Sandstein 16:41, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

I disagree. If the conduct was inherent to his presence here, then there would be more recent blocks or logs. The fact that you go back a decade is indeed trying to muddy the water. Sir Joseph 17:39, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

I'm with Sir Joseph. People can, and often do change. Especially the type of people who constructively edit WP for years. If one has to look back 10 years to find an example of someone being sanctioned for incivility, then it's false to claim they have a propensity towards incivility. They had such a propensity, ten years ago. But they don't anymore. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 17:57, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

I do not like MONGO's leaving, though I understand it--but in this difficult situation I cannot find fault with Sandstein. MONGO can appeal, of course, and there are other things that can be done. Quibbling over one of the details is not likely to be fruitful; if it hadn't been for the recent edits we wouldn't have gotten to AE. I hope that MONGO will, I don't know, retract those statements, or some of them, and I send him best wishes, thanking him for all the good work he has done. Drmies (talk) 18:01, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

I don't see my proposal above as quibbling over a detail, but a means to entice MONGO back to editing, while simultaneously addressing the problematic edits. To be completely fair, were the case handed to me to decide alone, I'd have told MONGO to remove the comments, promise never to do it again, and closed the whole thing. I very strongly disagree with what he said in the edits in question and elsewhere, but they were a single instance of disruption. Quashing it and moving on is the best course, IMHO. If and when MONGO kept making further such attacks, I'd have imposed a restriction like I suggested above.

With all that being said, I don't think Sandstein did anything wrong. I think Sandstein just doesn't see things quite the way I do, and made the best call they could have in light of that and their knowledge of the situation. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 18:21, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

"detail"--I was talking about mentioning the block log, that's all. The problem with your suggestion ("were the case handed to me") is that we can't tell people to do this or that. I mean, we can, but typically they don't do what we want them to do since *gasp* they are, or at least claim to be, autonomous human beings. And I don't think this ban would have happened if it was just one remark--there were a few, and the "pattern" (exemplified, I suppose, by reference to the block log), played a part in that. Of course editors (and MONGO) will disagree on whether there was a pattern, and how significant it was, etc. Please note that I didn't propose anything to solve anything, and that I agree that your "solution" would have my preference also--but Sandstein knows, I believe, that he is not some deity who can make those things happen. Drmies (talk) 18:54, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

Sandstein knows, I believe, that he is not some deity who can make those things happen. Wait, what?! He's not?! Awww man....

Actually, I agree with your points about making people do things. I should have said I'd ask MONGO to remove and promise not to do it again, and if they didn't, then I'd consider taking further steps, such as my proposal, or (more likely in the face of stubborn refusal to back down) the topic ban that was actually implemented. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 19:36, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

• (sticking my oar in where it may be unwelcome) MONGO's allegations about systemic bias are fallacious, at best, and the specific comments that led to this were unacceptable. Nevertheless, I'm uncomfortable with decade-old blocks being a factor leading to such a dismal outcome. If the ultimate objective is to improve the encyclopedia, then this is clearly a fail. (For what it's worth, I see that more as a failure of policy than a failure of you, Sandstein. Either block logs should be expungeable or policy should be amended to categorically negate their relevance after a reasonably long interval.) Rivertorch_WATER 23:00, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

I have no idea why people think block logs shouldn't be a (admittedly small) factor in determining if someone has exhibited a pattern of behavior? It's moot anyway because there's a recent and abundant history of damaging personal attacks, threats, and aspersions. No one said MONGO should leave the project. By his own admission, he rarely edits articles in the American politics topic area, so the sanction is exceptionally mild in my view.

There are too many people here advocating on behalf other people who unambiguously violate our policies, yet I rarely see outrage when multiple editors are accused of liberal POV pushing, and accused of damaging the project without any evidence whatsoever. The failure here is the mental acrobatics performed in defense of the indefensible!- MrX 23:24, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

• This is almost certainly an English issue. NeilN proposed a topic ban from "talking about the perceived biases of other editors or their edits in this area". He meant it as biases of either the editors or their edits. That is appropriate English. Sandstein appears to have read it as talking about the perceived biases of other editors or talking about their edits in the area. That would also be appropriate English. The grammatical construction is ambiguous. Let's not go overboard in assuming bad faith where there likely is none. ~ Rob₁₃ 23:15, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
• I agree that MONGO's departure is unfortunate, and I hope he takes some time to cool off and reconsider his participation in the project. Not particularly long ago I was ArbCom topic-banned from a fairly broad area for an indefinite period of time, not just three months. I was certainly angry and frustrated by that sanction and considered hanging it up too, so I sympathize with MONGO's feelings entirely. But it's possible to use these events to step back, take a breath, find other ways to contribute and move on with one's editing, and eventually even move past it entirely. One thing I think we should all get past is the idea that a topic-ban sanction (as opposed to one for, say, sockpuppetry) is a permanent scarlet letter. Sometimes it just means you got in too deep and needed a nudge to step back. I rather consider my experience a badge of honor now - "I Survived The GamerGate ArbCom." So MONGO, if you're reading this, please take some time to go through the thought process I had to ponder a few years ago. I think you'll come up with the same answer. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 09:22, 6 January 2018 (UTC)
• Sandstein has just threatened me with (I'm not sure what)—"may be sanctioned for disruption"—because I twice posted a question under his majestic AE close. I add my voice to those who object to the topic ban and to Sandstein's behaviour in general at AE. There is no point in having these AE discussions if one admin repeatedly arrives to ignore the consensus. Yes, it is true that sanctions can be imposed by individual admins without discussion, but that does NOT mean that, once discussion has taken place, the admin can act as if it has not taken place. SarahSV 20:45, 6 January 2018 (UTC)
• This is now becoming endemic, that admins like Sandstein threaten sanction, or plonk blocks on individuals, instead of actively discuss issues with them to resolve problems. I think 2018 will be know as the year of admin recall. What's great is the community is now actively working against such behaviour from admins and arbs, and community consensus will ultimately triumph, regardless of how many long-term editors are driven off the project. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:55, 6 January 2018 (UTC)

New section

Hi, why was the page First world map Mahabharta deleted. It had proper references. Some other technical issues arose due to lack of proper understanding of[REDACTED] tool. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Seekingdivine (talk • contribs) 17:45, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

• This is why: Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Early world map Mahabharata. Drmies (talk) 17:48, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

A request

Sandstein, the MONGO decision has led to such concern (and a considerable expenditure of volunteer time) that it seems clear there is no consensus for it. Would you please reverse the topic ban and re-open the AE discussion? That way, discussion can continue, in one place and with a minimum of fuss, until a consensus is reached. SarahSV 22:21, 6 January 2018 (UTC)

Sorry, I decline. Procedure is clear that consensus is not required for AE actions (indeed, admins are explicitly allowed to overrule emerging consensus of other admins, albeit only with caution), and that AE actions can only be reviewed in the course of an appeal by the sanctioned editor, which you are not. Any expenditure of volunteer time is because of you. I'd like to note, though, that contrary to what you wrote in the AE talk thread, I did not "ignore" the existing discussion or consensus (of which there was none), but I took the views of other admins into account, and reduced the topic ban from indefinite to three months because of the concerns others raised. Sandstein 22:28, 6 January 2018 (UTC)

The alternative is going to be prolonged discussion in multiple places, then probably AN or ArbCom with the loss of time and energy that entails. When I came online today, I wanted to work on content, not this, and I'm probably not alone in that. And no, the discussion is not because of me. It's because of your contentious decision. No matter how right admins think they are, when there is this much concern, including from uninvolved admins, it does not speak well of an admin if he or she ignores it. Please reconsider. SarahSV 22:41, 6 January 2018 (UTC)

This is nothing less than shameless WP:BADGERING from someone who refuses to respect, or even acknowledge, the process outlined by Arbcom. Beware of boomerangs.- MrX 23:05, 6 January 2018 (UTC)

A boomerang for someone asking open and honest questions? X marks the spot, you're the man! The Rambling Man (talk) 23:13, 6 January 2018 (UTC)

Good one The Rambling Man . Keep 'em coming.- MrX 23:16, 6 January 2018 (UTC)

Shhhh. The Rambling Man (talk) 23:20, 6 January 2018 (UTC)

Sandstein, are you open to recall? The Rambling Man (talk) 22:43, 6 January 2018 (UTC)

What did I say about empty threats and New Year's Day whiskey bottles? Volunteer Marek (talk) 22:45, 6 January 2018 (UTC)

I'd leave it Sandstein to answer the question Marek, your intrusion is, once again, completely unwelcome and unnecessary. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:47, 6 January 2018 (UTC)

TRM, I'd guess your thinly-veiled question about recall is also "completely unwelcome and unnecessary". You had your mop taken away from you, so I think you would be better suited to improving content than picking fights. Chris Troutman (talk) 22:58, 6 January 2018 (UTC)

Troutman? Apt. Please allow Sandstein to answer the question, your intrusion is completely unnecessary, and actually, let's compare notes, how much improvement to content have you made this year? The last month? Oh.......... The Rambling Man (talk) 23:13, 6 January 2018 (UTC)

I am not open to recall. Sandstein 23:15, 6 January 2018 (UTC)

Thanks. See you soon. The Rambling Man (talk) 23:16, 6 January 2018 (UTC)

I doubt the back and forth here helps anything guys... maybe push off and let things be. Threats don't help anyone. I realize my own comment is slightly obnoxious so will push off.(Littleolive oil (talk) 23:35, 6 January 2018 (UTC))

Amendment request

Please see . SarahSV 23:41, 6 January 2018 (UTC)

request for clarification involving you

Here . --DHeyward (talk) 02:37, 7 January 2018 (UTC)