Misplaced Pages

talk:What Misplaced Pages is not - Misplaced Pages

Article snapshot taken from[REDACTED] with creative commons attribution-sharealike license. Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat. We can research this topic together.

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by TheronJ (talk | contribs) at 14:43, 17 October 2006 (Plot summaries part 3 - I don't see how a simple majority equals consensus). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Revision as of 14:43, 17 October 2006 by TheronJ (talk | contribs) (Plot summaries part 3 - I don't see how a simple majority equals consensus)(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff)
WikiProject iconSpoken Misplaced Pages
WikiProject iconThis page is within the scope of WikiProject Spoken Misplaced Pages, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles that are spoken on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Spoken WikipediaWikipedia:WikiProject Spoken WikipediaTemplate:WikiProject Spoken WikipediaSpoken Misplaced Pages
Archiving icon
Archives
  • Timeline
  1. July 2002 - February 2004
  2. February 2004 - July 2004
  3. July 2004 - June 2005
  4. May 2005 - December 2005
  5. January 2005 - April 2006
  6. April 2006 - September 2006
  • Other
  1. Galleries
  2. Unencyclopedic

Newscast schedules, redux

The discussion at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Television_Stations#Newscast_schedules has seems to reached a moderate consensus that newscasts and other local programming of a station are notable and should be included in articles (or at least, enough people aren't objecting to it). Before I revise the section about radio "schedules" by permitting the addition of locally originated programming times in station articles (much like we have the times of network originated programming in articles such as 2005-06 United States network television schedule and the CBS#Fall_2006_schedule articles), I'd like to see some discussion. Certainly, it is a clear double standard to permit network schedules to be displayed but locally originated programs not to get the same treatment. Calwatch 05:20, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

On the one hand we list bus schedules, at least in some form. On the other hand we don't predict future events. The trouble with any of these schedules is keeping them up to date, especially for smaller networks and stations. Listing the exact times of a show is more demanding than simply saying that they air a show and then giving a link to the latest schedule. -Will Beback 05:29, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
However, as noted in the project discussion, television news generally doesn't change, unlike syndicated programming. News times stayed fixed for long periods of time, and are not like the example given in WP:NOT, implying that Misplaced Pages would provide a list of songs played on a radio station on a given day, which would be absurd. Calwatch 06:01, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
There's certainly a difference between posting the times of regularly-scheduled programs versus announcing future guests, special programs, and other irregular future events. -Will Beback 06:09, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
Newscast schedules are important, it's not like we are adding full fledged schedules, and if someone does I remove it. I think Amgine (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) should have gone through WP:TVS before he/she/it decided to singlehandedly remove all newscast schedules, apparently he/she/it forgot how to discuss things before making major removals. I am reverting all of he/she/its edits related to that until we can come to a decision. --CFIF ☎ 13:15, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
I think using the {{vandal}} template here was not a good choice. This is a content dispute, User:Amgine has no history of being blocked and very few page moves, so what was the point of using the vandal template, other than implying (quite wrongly, IMHO) that Amgine is a vandal? -- Donald Albury 15:00, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
Ugh, sorry, I forgot that there were other templates for that use, I just didn't care to look for them. Anyway, let's not change the subject. Amgine shouldn't be deleting others' work so sweepingly without discussing it here for others' to decide. --CFIF ☎ 15:18, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm probably in the minority in saying that there is no need in mentioning a full-scale schedule of each station's newscasts, where a person access the same schedules from that station's website. I never really understood the logic behind that. Maybe a subtle mention here and there, but it's just a waste of space mentioning the schedules of a station's newscasts. ShawnHill 20:21, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Is Misplaced Pages a resume book?

I have seen some biographical articles that are clearly resumes, i.e., they are bullet lists of schools and universities, previous jobs, and awards. Although the subjects of these articles clearly merit Misplaced Pages articles, does this resume-style format belong in Misplaced Pages? Patiwat 01:31, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Problem with NOT A LIST policy & proposed remedial change

It is possible that a list contributes to, not detracts from, the quality of an article. In particular to the goal of increased understanding of an article's topic in the mind of the Average Reader. This is so for at least one fundamental reason, human psychology. Some Readers are best able to make sense of a topic by induction from several examples, after which the brilliant expository prose we all (hmmm?) write in the rest of the article will perhaps be of even more help in further understanding. The other reason is more craftsmanlike. Some material is best conveyed, as a matter of writing/editing craft, in a list than in a paragraph, or several, of prose.

So, I suggest that this aspect of WP:NOT be changed to include the following:

<Lists are to be avoided, for many reasons, except> in situations in which the list contributes to the article's quality as an encyclopedic article. That is, allows readers to more readily understand the presentation, or includes relevant material which is not otherwise easily included in a standard prose manner. In short, eschew lists which are merely lists. Lists which contribute to the article, to the reader's understanding, or which contain information which will be help that understanding, are acceptable.

A recent example illustrating this problem may be found at Digital rights management, and is discussed in the talk:DRM under heading 'removal of list...'. ww 14:23, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

More examples related to "Travel guide" information

I think that the section on "travel-guide" needs to be more explicit. Frequently articles about tourist destinations include adimssion fees. Space Needle has an entire section on how much it costs to get in, as does the Eiffel Tower. More deveolped articles such as Disneyland, Statue of Liberty, Empire State Building don't mention the admission fee. Unless there is some story about why the admission fees are the way they are, or notable history of the admission fees, I don't think it should be included.

Other articles (like Katz's Deli) contain directions on how to get there. I don't think that it is really appropriate to include such information. Am I crazy? Cacophony 07:42, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

For the record, I don't think you are crazy. I do think you have to make you own decisions about which issues are worth pursuing in the face of opposition. -- Donald Albury 15:25, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

...not a jokebook?

Please take a look into Lightbulb joke. Does each section really need more than 1-2 examples? Clearly every joke is unique. But does the article has to have them all? The same about Knock-knock joke, and a really devoted person may do the same to all other joke articles. Is there a way to prevent this from happening? `'mikka (t) 06:40, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Jokes are so POV in terms of being funny or not; I believe even if said articles were renamed to "list of <FOO> jokes", they would become huge and unmanageable within a short time (as well as being unverifiable). Perhaps they need to be boldly edited. Although this may be covered by "Misplaced Pages is not an indiscriminate..." --SigPig 10:43, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
For a long time, the consensus decision was to move them over to Wikibooks:Jokebook and to provide an cross-wiki link for those interested in reading or documenting more such jokes. I don't know if that's still the preferred solution but having more than one or two illustrative examples is inappropriate for an encyclopedia. Rossami (talk) 12:59, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps we could deal with this in the external links section of the joke entries. What provides a "good" example of a joke is highly subjective. There are many sites that catalog jokes of certain "types" like the lightbulb joke. If there need to be examples, perhaps they would best be handled off site? 63.254.143.241 03:12, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Link to Misplaced Pages:Notability

I propose that we remove the link to Misplaced Pages:Notability that appears under Misplaced Pages is not a soapbox point 2. It is a stub proposal, with as of yet no support. The link was previously to the well-known essay on notability, and if people don't think we should remove the link, it is obvious that we should preserve the original intent of the link (which is to link to the essay).

I think we should remove the reference entirely as neither the proposal, nor the essay, are policies or guidelines, and simply don't fit in with the other two which are: Misplaced Pages:Autobiography and Misplaced Pages:Vanity. Fresheneesz 07:10, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Why does a stub proposal deserve to be on this page? Why not the proposal WP:NNOT (which I am also *not* suggesting we put on this page)? Both are proposal, but one is distinctly more drawn out, and has more recent discussion. Fresheneesz 21:13, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
I'd say it deserves to be on the page because notability has become a well used term on Misplaced Pages and it makes sense that we attempt to write a short guideline on what it is. Let us not forget the intent of the link is to describe a reason why one should not engage in self-promotion, not to link to the essay, which it should be noted, has changed over time itself. Steve block Talk 21:27, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Regardless of term usability, this link has nothing to do on a policy page, as it is an essay. CP/M |Misplaced Pages Neutrality Project| 21:30, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
I don't follow you, are you asserting that policy pages should only link to other policy pages? Steve block Talk 21:38, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Not only, guidelines as well, but essays only when closely relevant and having no better substitute. Notability is about slightly different things - that section is about "not a soapbox", meaning "not a cheap propaganda media". WP:VANITY and WP:AUTO cover that topic quite well, and in fact far better. CP/M |Misplaced Pages Neutrality Project| 01:42, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
The prevelance of the term "notability" doesn't give reason to put up a link to that proposal - which isn't about the term, but is about enforcing notability criteria. Policy should only link to things that have sufficient consensus, be they other policy, guidelines, essays, or articles. However, I don't think that WP:NN has that consensus yet. Fresheneesz 04:21, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Without further objection, I'm going to remove the link. Notability doesn't pertain to "soapboxing" and its not even a guideline - much less policy. Fresheneesz 02:38, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

not a fan page...

Continuing this discussion, I think it might be good to add a bullet point to "Misplaced Pages is not a free host, blog, webspace provider or social networking site":

2. Misplaced Pages is not a fan site. Articles about famous people, places and things should be be encyclopedic in tone. The articles should not be a place for fans to gather and discuss, reminisce, and post links to any imaginable site that has any reference to the person, place or thing in question. See also: WP:NPOV, Misplaced Pages:External links and "Misplaced Pages is not an indiscriminate collection of information."

The wording could probably use some work (a lot of work?), but I think the basic notion is sound, and potentially quite useful. Comments? -- Xtifr 00:19, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Strong agreement on addition of "Misplaced Pages is not a fan site." In the Comics Project, certainly, there is a tendency among some editors to treat their favorite characters' articles as their own personal fan sites, with overly detailed, issue-by-issue plot synopses, rumors, breaking news that may or may not be encyclopedic ("So-and-so appears on the cover of the next issue!" Seriously, that's a real one.), and lots of original research speculation/analysis/conclusion. While various of these can be deleted on things like WP:POV, etc., an overall "this is not a fan site" dictum would streamline and simplify matters, and save time and effort. -- Tenebrae 15:23, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Nutshell

The "This Policy in a Nutshell" for What Misplaced Pages Is Not doesn't seem to very well sum up the page. Anyone want to work on a new version? -- Renesis (talk) 03:45, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

How bout this:
"Misplaced Pages is first and foremost an online encyclopedia and a community of people interested in building it into a high-quality resource. Misplaced Pages is not a compilation of any and all information, so please avoid the temptation to use Misplaced Pages for other purposes, or to treat it as something it is not."
Fresheneesz 04:24, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I'd rather just take it off. The "policy in a nutshell" idea seemed like a good idea at the time but now that we've got more experience with it, I think it just clutters up the page for little purpose. The best "policy in a nutshell" is the policy title. No original research is a good example. The next level of detail should be in the opening paragraph. This infobox tries to fill a middle ground between the two. Because of that, it's inevitably vague and general. I don't think it adds anything to the reader's understanding of the page. Frankly, I doubt that most people even read them. They just blur into the generic "this is official policy" infoboxes. Rossami (talk) 05:26, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree. This just seems like template-cruft; the overview of any policy belongs in the first paragraph of the introduction. For this particular page, however, an introduction may be less appropriate than on other pages. —Centrx→talk • 15:05, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
This page doesn't have an intro. So... Are you suggesting we just kick the info out of the box and leave it as a plain intro? Fresheneesz 00:47, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
Also, while some policies have easy-to-understand titles, many don't - and a nutshell can help guide readers. I know the nutshell is the first thing i read if its there. Fresheneesz 00:48, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
This page used to have a very good intro. I'm not sure when it got lost. Let's pull it back in. Or if you don't like any of the versions from history, rewrite it. I'll support you in getting a version of an introduction back onto this page.
For those policies without easy-to-understand titles, let's change the titles. Did you have any specifically bad ones where you think we should focus first? Thanks. Rossami (talk) 13:20, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
  • I know exactly where it went. Initially, Nutshell was thought of as a good concept, and a bunch of pages had them added. Then, I and a number of others noticed that they weren't summarizing the pages very well (generally being either redundant or misrepresentative) so we removed most of them. At some point after that, while the anti-nuts were not really around, a second wave was made by putting nutshells on each policy and guideline. This page was one of the hardest, so in the end somebody took the intro and stuffed it entirely into the nutshell. Then some other people cropped it because it was too big. It's a textbook example of overstandardization. >Radiant< 16:16, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
That has nothing to do with standardization. Thats a good example of bad editing. The whole intro shouldn't have been put in the nutshell in the firstplace. But, since this page doesn't have (or recently didn't have) an intro, lets just put an intro on this one. Nutshells are not intrinsically bad, but since they are in the inro, they provide focus to the one or two sentences that are in them. But this page, having no intro, doesn't need extra focus in a nutshell.
Personally, I think it would be a good idea to keep the nutshell. If people are used to having the nutshell on these sorts of pages, then they'll benefit from finding it here as well. Thats the beauty of standardization. Just remember that the nutshell tag is highly customizable - meaning you can put what info you want in it, and the rest somewhere else. Overstandardization does not stem from use of the tag - but from the users of the tag. Fresheneesz 20:42, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
Why should people be used to have the nutshell? Why shouldn't the overview be the first paragraph of the introduction, or the entire introduction? —Centrx→talk • 21:38, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
  • I agree with Centrx. We got along fine without nutshells for several years. If anything, the average novice's understanding of "wikirules" has gone down since the advent of nutshells. That is not to say the two are related, but several nutshells oversimplify or misrepresent the related page. >Radiant< 23:26, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
So fix it radiant. I'm not saying people *should* be used to nutshells - but I definately don't see why its a problem if they are. Nutshells are good supplements to intros, and they work as an intro by themselves. Your issue doesn't seem to be with the template as much as it is the writing inside the template. You guys are just saying that the intros suck. Thats not the template's fault. Fresheneesz 02:35, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Nutshells are very useful. In particular to newbies. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 01:16, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Is there a reason why newbies can't read the introduction that is in the same place? Do we really need boxes and flashy graphics for everything? —Centrx→talk • 02:10, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
I have recently noticed that many novice users don't really understand how Misplaced Pages works. As such, I believe that, while novice users do find nutshells useful, nutshells do give them the wrong impression, or lead them to incorrect assumptions. And that means they're a bad idea. Perception of usefulness does not equate to real usefulness. >Radiant< 22:22, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
To Centrx, yes there is a reason. Many newbs aren't patient or interested enough to read full policy pages. They'll see the page, and try to skim it. Flashy graphics help focus people so that they don't do useless skimming.
To radiant, This does not only go for newbs - many users simply wouldn't be interested enough to learn about the whole policy. Thats how any learning goes - you can't expect people to learn it all in one go. Fresheneesz 00:41, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
You can expect skimming because it's human nature - but that doesn't mean you should encourage skimming. >Radiant< 10:23, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
And how would a nutshell do that? Fresheneesz 20:38, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
  • By highlighting a misinterpretation and oversimplification and presenting it as an accurate summary. I'm not saying that's true in all cases, but it's definitely true in some cases. >Radiant< 21:48, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

What Misplaced Pages is not: News Portal

I'd like to see a stronger formulation of excluding news vs. knowledge. I fear it is not realistic to hope for this, as a large number of contributors really love news in articles, but we now have the ironic situation, that some news story are covered on Misplaced Pages but not on WikiNews.

The current formulations only outrules news not published anywhere, a very limited and toothless policy.

Pjacobi 10:12, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Good point Peter. Any proposals on how to address thisin the policy? ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 01:15, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Do you guys really think that having news on[REDACTED] is a problem? I very much disagree if you think so. I'm not a news junky, but I think that for those that are, we shouldn't arbitrariliy take away their pride. WikiNews is not as prominant as wikipedia, and its the shortcomings of that site that are at fault, not wikipedia's. Fresheneesz 20:40, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
Several points made me raise the issue:
  • I'm still in favour of our original mission of writing an encyclopedia, which collects knowledge. Random facts or or news doesn't constitue knowledge.
  • The desire for news in Misplaced Pages articles result in using more and more newspapers and worse as a source for articles. Giving the inherent limitations of newspapers, nearly everything can be sourced from them.
  • Aiming for news instead of knowledge results in articles being accepted just because something achieved some new coverage. Whether or not it constitues knowledge in itself, tends to be disregarded in AfD, being covered in mass media used as a relevance criterion instead (this hurts espescially in the junk science department, e.g. Steorn, EmDrive)
Pjacobi 20:51, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
I also think that having news on Misplaced Pages is a problem for the encyclopedia. News is by definition a current event. That makes it very difficult to verify in a timely or reliable manner. Professional news organizations with large staffs of paid fact-checkers are often unable to verify key points in a story. As an all-volunteer force of pseudonymous editors, we have exponentially greater challenges. When we stick to true encyclopedia articles, we have far fewer challenges because we have a greater range of Misplaced Pages:reliable sources which can be verified.
Encyclopedia articles are supposed to provide depth, context and perspective to discussions of historical events. Those qualities are not possible in an article while the event is still current. (Or, in the rare cases where they are possible, are only so as a result of extraordinary effort, diligence and a great deal of luck.) We need to allow the events to resolve before we begin to write the relevant encyclopedia article. Otherwise, whenever we try to cover a current event on an even slightly controversial topic, we have become embroiled in the controversy.
We are an encyclopedia. We are a tertiary source. We synopsize the writings of others. We have no need or desire to "scoop" anyone. Let WikiNews focus on news. Misplaced Pages should stick to encyclopedia articles.
Fresheneesz is correct that WikiNews is not yet as prominent as Misplaced Pages but part of the reason is that we are continuing to undercut their mission. By allowing (or worse, encouraging) news here, we disincent good reporters from joining their project, we create confusion in the minds of our readers and we create even higher barriers to their ability to gain the critical mass and prominence they deserve. Rossami (talk) 02:19, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
I think i agree with lots of that. However, current events shouldn't be discriminated against. They should use multiple reliable sources, and be just as credible as any other page on wikipedia. Junky tabloid news, or other random stuff won't be verifiable. So I suggest that if you write something about how[REDACTED] isn't news, qualify it so highly verifiable news isn't opposed. Fresheneesz 06:13, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
I respectfully disagree. Being out of scope cannot be healed by sourcing. --Pjacobi 08:17, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

As an example of the things I want to eliminate, I've nominated Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Pope Benedict XVI Islam controversy for deletion. --Pjacobi 08:17, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

The result (speedy keep after 1h 12m with only 7 contributions) shows, that nothing short of fork would be able to re-focus on writing an encyclopedia. --Pjacobi 09:57, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
There is a policy against marking articles for deletion when they are on the front page. See Misplaced Pages:Speedy keep. The reason that we have a "current events" section is because these articles will be significant in the future, but they just happen to be unravelling in the present. Do you think there is a difference between articles like Swedish general election, 2006 and United States presidential election, 1948, or Pope Benedict XVI Islam controversy and Investiture Controversy? The events in "Recent events" aren't aribitrarily selected- they are significant events in history, but they just happen to be happening now. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wafulz (talk • contribs)
I'm sorry but your interpretation of the "current events" section of the Main Page is incorrect. That section was designed as a way to advertise the breadth of articles which the encyclopedia already had prior to the current event. It was designed to provide links to interesting background articles which are related to some topic in the news of the day. The current events section was never intended to become a news section.
The "recent events" are not arbitrarily selected but it is impossible to say if they will really be "significant events in history". Any attempt to make that prediction is sheer speculation.
And yes, I do believe that there is a difference between United States presidential election, 1948 and Swedish general election, 2006. In the former, history has granted us all the perspective needed to write a high-quality, neutral and verifiable article complete with background, context, long-term impact, etc. We do not have those sources (and I would argue, can not get those sources) for events which are still unfolding. As I've said above, I believe that the project would be much better off if we waited before attempting to draft the article. The news versions belong over at WikiNews.
By the way, Speedy keep is a recently-created guideline, not policy. Rossami (talk) 14:24, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
Well, to address those concerns: Each heading under recent events holds at least a few Wikilinks to related topics (I count at least four in most headings, not including the event itself). Topics about military coups, federal elections, and international meetings are pretty significant by default- some may only affect one nationality or group, but things like changes in scientific defitinitions or a shift in power are easily notable now and will certainly have an impact later on. We may not be able to make statements about long term effects or look at a ten-year perspective (unless it has published sources, of course), but I don't think that merits exclusion. Also, on Speedy Keep: there's no need to nitpick about what it is- the point is that if someone visits Misplaced Pages and goes to an article featured on our front page (not necessarily a featured article) and sees it marked for deletion, that really gives a negative signal about the website.
What exactly would you prefer Recent Events to cover? Are you suggesting we get rid of it entirely? How do you suggest we draw the line between something that is resolved and something that is unresolved? Sorry for all the questions, but I'd like to know how you suggest we separate "news" from a "recently resolved event." --Wafulz 20:36, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
That's the problem with this argument, in practise we can't. If you accept the philosophy of Misplaced Pages, that is a wiki-based encyclopedia, then you have to accept that articles will always be a work in progress, and on the whole they wont ever be perfect or complete. At the same time though, the positive we get from all this, is that articles can quickly develop to a fairly good standard, a point illustrated no better than in Misplaced Pages:Current events. If you watch how these articles develop in real-time with the events, along with references, you might be suprised at how well it can be done. The 2004 Indian Ocean Earthquake and the 7 July 2005 London bombings were two excellent examples of this, Brendanfox 23:30, 19 September 2006 (UTC).

I like Current events. It has always been a part of Misplaced Pages and often serves as the portal for creation of topical articles. Fred Bauder 13:02, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Fred Bauder. However,[REDACTED] must be careful not to attempt to report the news but rather give insight(through its articles) to what is currently being reported by other news outlets. As long as we aren't breaking stories, but rather taking note of what is established as noteworthy by other outlets, I think we're fine. 63.254.143.241 03:08, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not a place of assignation

Misplaced Pages is not an appropriate place to advertise your desire for kinky sex (or straight sex). User pages which move beyond broad expressions of sexual preference are unacceptable. This is particularly true for sexual practices which are illegal or repulsive to the general public such as pedophilia.

I think this is true. Fred Bauder 13:02, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree that it's true but I think it is unnecessary on this page. It is already covered under #Misplaced Pages is not a blog, webspace provider, or social networking site. This page is already longer than ideal. Your paragraph does not, in my opinion, add enough to the policy to justify the instruction creep. Tweak the existing section if you think it really needs it but I've removed the separate section. Rossami (talk) 13:37, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
Ok, this needs to be explicit. Fred Bauder 14:28, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
"sexual practices which are illegal or repulsive to the general public such as pedophilia"
Besides the fact that "repulsive" is POV (but we are not in article space, so I don't know if the NPOV rule applies), can you say which law makes it illegal to, according pedophilia, " sexually attracted primarily or exclusively to prepubescent or peripubescent children"? Btw, I don't think an attraction (in this context) is a practice. Apokrif 17:51, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
Common usage, not medical. Powers 15:37, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
This is not my field. It is sexual assault on a child that is the crime. A pedophile's fantasy life is still legal. We don't need the details here, though. Fred Bauder 17:39, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
It's good common-sense policy, but doesn't really need to be written down. We had someone on wikibooks that asked a professor for the email/phone numbers of the "single girls" who were part of the class that wrote a book: the user was blocked forever, the sock puppets that appeared the next day were also blocked forever, and the IP adress was blocked from account creation for a couple months. I think we can trust the judgement of the[REDACTED] admins on this without needing an explicit clause about it. ----SB_Johnny||books 19:04, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Not a how-to manual

There have been a lot of video game guides and other instructional articles created (and deleted) recently. Can we get a consesus that Misplaced Pages is not a how-to manual? How-to guides (FAQs, lessons, etc) are not encyclopedic and should be relegated to other sites. (i.e., Wikihow, GameFAQs, DIY) Adamkik 19:32, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Plot summaries as part of article series

I'm going to add some apparently inadvertently lost language back into the policy, and wanted to get some thoughts:

  1. The plot summary section was introduced July 9, 2006,, as the result of a talk page discussion and consensus.
  2. Prior to September 3rd, the Misplaced Pages policy on plot summaries included the statement that plot summaries might be appropriate " as part of a series of articles per Misplaced Pages:Article series. (See, e.g., )
  3. It looks like the language was then dropped inadvertently - it was first replaced by broader proposed language, , which was then modified slightly.. In the course of those mods, the "article series" language was lost, but I don't think that (1) either of the editors specifically intended to remove the language, or (2) it was discussed on talk.

Accordingly, I am going to add it back in for now, pending discussion. Thoughts? TheronJ 14:25, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

  • You seem to imply that it would be appropriate to have an article that is only a plot summary, as long as there are related articles that are not. I'm not too happy with that idea. >Radiant< 14:40, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
  • I guess I do imply that. I would argue (1) that had been the policy for months before it was inadvertently deleted, and (2) if an appropriately abbreviated plot summary is nevertheless too long to fit in the main article, then yes, it should be spun out. If not, does it make sense to discuss what extra information should be included in an existing "plot summary" article to bring it within Wiki standards? TheronJ 14:45, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
    • (1) is not really an argument, because it had not been in the policy for years before it was inadvertently added. I'd say that if a plot summary is too long for the main article, it is too long period. An encyclopedia should analyze information from books, not restate it. >Radiant< 14:48, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

It may just be an organizational problem. My take would be:

  1. Some articles get a lot of plot summary into the encyclopedia by including a plot summary of every single episode, issue, or book of the thing being summarized. (See, e.g., Category:Star Trek: Deep Space Nine episodes). Those fit the existing policy either way, because no single page has plot summary on a page by itself, although DS9 must have several hundred K of plot summary as a whole.
  2. Other articles write up plot summary for dozens or hundreds of episodes as a single article, like Plot_of_Naruto. I don't think it's inconsistent with Misplaced Pages:Article series to do that, although I guess we could write a policy that says an article like Plot of Naruto needs significant non-plot-summary material to stay, and therefore needs to be something more like the DS9 pages.

Thanks, TheronJ 15:00, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

  • Regardless of what happens, this needs to be better publicised. It has the possibility of affecting a large range of articles, and the last thing that's necessary is that this change goes into effect and people say "I had no way of knowing!" --badlydrawnjeff talk 15:37, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
  • That's a good point, Theron. I think the information in that plot article is good, only the way it is written isn't. See, at the moment it's mostly an enumeration of "this happened, then that happened, and then that happened too". That style is not really appropriate to an encyclopedia, and it's kind of long. I suppose we'd want to discourage people from writing in that style, but not from adding that kind of information. Organization of information is pretty important. >Radiant< 15:50, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

I share Radiant's concern that this clause encouraged articles that are only plot summaries just because there are related articles. My concern is about fair use and copyright. Plot summaries are allowable as fair use only when they are appropriate in proportion to the rest of the work. An article which is nothing but a plot summary puts us dangerously close to copyright violations. You could try to argue that the "work" should be defined more broadly than the single article but that would not be the traditional interpretation. Frankly, it's not something I would ever want to test in court. Articles must stand alone. A page which is nothing more than a plot summary must quickly be either expanded, rebalanced or merged. Being part of a "series" is a very weak protection. Rossami (talk) 22:43, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree that we need to be right on the copyright and fair use issues. Given the various "plot summary" debates cooking on Misplaced Pages, does it make sense to start working on a proposed "plot summary" guideline, working off Misplaced Pages:Writing about fiction and Misplaced Pages:Fair use? Would we have any chance of reaching consensus? TheronJ 13:26, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
I think Misplaced Pages:Writing about fiction already does it. I don't think any article which follows that guidance would meet any of the concerns Radiant or Rossami raise. Steve block Talk 13:46, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Pinouts on connector articles (D4 video connector) ?

A number of connector articles (SCART, XLR connector, DIN connector, Digital Visual Interface) include pin outs for the connectors - I'm currently involved in a good natured dispute with another editor over the issue of including these. I'm in favour of including them - as I feel they make the article comprehensive, and the kind of thing you would look to find in an encyclopedia article. The other editor feels they are too much of a "how to" information. Here is the example article we are discussing:

  • D4 connector with pinout
  • D4 connector without pinout

What do people think ? Megapixie 07:58, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Since Megapixie described the discussion pretty well, I'll suffice with a link to the current discussion for some more details about both our viewpoints :^) -- De Zeurkous (root@lichee.nichten.info), Friday September 29 14:34 UTC 2006
IMHO, the pinouts are an important part (maybe the most important) of the description of the connector. Maybe there's a better looking way to do it, though. TheronJ 13:24, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
I think that descriptions of which pins do what on a connector is very encyclopdic. You are not explaining how-to build an interface, you are listing the parts and their functions. HighInBC 16:51, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

NOT a democracy

However, how about this... Misplaced Pages:Cluocracy? >Radiant< 23:28, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Bah. Why invent new terms where a perfectly good one exist? -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  01:45, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
That's a word now? :) >Radiant< 09:42, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
But clever, nevertheless. --Rednblu 09:17, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Anarchy, Democracy, Bureaucracy need to go!

As has been discussed previously, those names are not totally inclusive, and (especially bureaucracy) misused in this context. I'd like to suggest we merge those three sections into one under heading 'Misplaced Pages is not an experiment in any social or political system'.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  01:53, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Except that Misplaced Pages is an experiment in its particular own social system, since (to my knowledge) a community of this type and magnitude is unprecedented. >Radiant< 09:11, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
I have come to the conclusion that while we are not a democracy or an anarchy, it is nevertheless important to use consensus because we rely on voluntary adherence to the decisions we make. Fred Bauder 12:13, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
I agree with you both, but it is not my intention (primary) to start discussion about that; I just want to point out that those titles are misleading (in case of bureaucracy) and somewhat POVed in case of D and A (why don't we have a section that wiki is not a monarchy, a communism, a dicatorship, a federation and such?).-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  01:40, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Because people frequently think that Misplaced Pages is anarchy, democracy or bureaucracy, and thus we wrote this to tell them why that is not the case. I have not seen anyone claim that Misplaced Pages is a federation. >Radiant< 08:52, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Misplaced Pages is a federation! The one I've always wanted to add, well the two I've wanted to add, are "Misplaced Pages is not a personal playground", which would cover vandalism and vanity and some user page abuse, and "Misplaced Pages is not a lightbulb". Steve block Talk 15:39, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

User pages

Quote: "More importantly, your user page is not yours." What an utterly stupid remark. Of course it's not yours in the context of true ownership. Everyone realises that. It doesn't need spelling out in such a pompous manner. I would suggest it is yours in terms of managing its content. We wouldn't want everyone having free reign on our user page. That's what the User Talk page is for. Arcturus 17:50, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Except that lots and lots of users don't realize that. Many new users get quite upset when their page is nominated for deletion even though their page was a blatent violation of WP:USER. Rossami (talk) 14:12, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
I agree, people don't realize that they don't own their talk page. Many new users who do not understand the wiki will remove warnings, add stuff that does not belong, and sometimes don't think they have to be civil since we are at their talk page. HighInBC 16:57, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

A collection of caresheets

Misplaced Pages could easily contain a collection of caresheets. How to keep pet tarantulas, lizards, snakes, cats, gerbils you name it. Most caresheets are species specific, there might be a lot of them if there is no rule. Especially since might attract quite a few spider-lovers. Maybe just an addon to: 'Misplaced Pages is not an indiscriminate collection of information: #4 Instruction manuals'? Fjejsing 16:10, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Well, if you want to describe what spiders eat, go to any spider article. If you want an instruction manual on caring for pets, the best location would be Wikibooks. >Radiant< 16:30, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Ah, I am not asking for advice on how to find information on spiders diets or how to care for my cat, I am wondering if caresheets should be allowed to be posted on wikipedia. In my opinion, they should not. A caresheet is basicly an instruction manual on animal care and should therefore not be allowed on wikipedia, though I see no rule forbidding it. Should there be one? Fjejsing 17:10, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
      • I agree, they don't really belong here. But I think it's mostly covered under 'howto guides'; we don't have to enumerate every single thing that doesn't belong here. I hadn't even heard the word 'caresheet' until you mentioned it. >Radiant< 18:18, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

why all these rules

Perhpas I missed it, but there did not seem to be a clear rationale for many of the WWIN (what wiki is not) rules, like no memorials, no dicdefs, etc. Why ? Indeed the entire deletion process seems anti wiki: it would be more wiki-ish to allow indiviual users to hide pages or classes of pages then to allow arbitrary deletions, which seem to reflect a "consensus" of a very small number of users. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ] (] • ])

  • Yes, but we're only a wiki second - we're an encyclopedia first. There have been a number of discussions about what is and is not appropriate material for an encyclopedia (and yet more discussions are still ongoing). One of the conclusions is that for a variety of reasons, "the average person" does not get an encyclopedia entry. And for dictionary-related material, we have our friendly neighborhood wiktionary. >Radiant< 15:50, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is a directory

"Misplaced Pages is not a directory

Misplaced Pages is not a directory of everything that exists or has existed."

Any user quickly realizes[REDACTED] is a directory, it's just not a directory of everything. I tend to go to[REDACTED] first (through answers.com) and google second, when looking for a company. Misplaced Pages clearly functions well as a directory. It is also an encyclopedia, but an encylopedia is a form of directory. Mathiastck 17:23, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

  • You make a good point but you're arguing in support of the point. Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, which is akin to a directory, but is not a directory, since a directoty may not be an encyclopedia. Steve block Talk 20:56, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
  • It also means that if an article cannot become more than a directory entry ("X is a store located on street Y of town Z"), it's not encyclopedic. >Radiant< 13:02, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not an indiscriminate collection of information

How do people feel about adding:

  • Word lists - While is list of words may add to an article, an article should not be primarily a list of words.

Or something of similiar wording. I have seen alot of articles that are nothing but a huge list of words, it does not seem enclycodpedic. See Canadian English words for an example of what I am talking about. HighInBC 14:52, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

I would support it since I think that those lists almost always belong in a Wiktionary Appendix or Concordance instead. Rossami (talk) 15:50, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Just rv'd an edit that weakened the "not an instruction manual" clause. Here's the diff. --SquidSK 16:14, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

"indiscriminate collection"

I did this edit because how things are done is not an indiscriminate collection. There are plenty of articles that describe what happens, and should describe what happens. Otherwise, how are people who don't know supposed to find out? --Chuck Marean 16:13, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

No, there is nothing wrong with honest how-to articles. The page says not to give how-to. It is wrong. The part that says no how-to articles is totally wrong and will not be tollerated by me.--Chuck Marean 16:18, 11 October 2006 (UTC) (This post was copied from my talk page --SquidSK 16:27, 11 October 2006 (UTC))

I'm sorry that you feel that how-to guides belong in Misplaced Pages, but , decisions like this have to be made by consensus. I encourage you to make a reasonable statement of your case at the What Misplaced Pages is Not talk page, but this matter has been settled long before you or I began editing Misplaced Pages. --SquidSK (1MC•log) 16:22, 11 October 2006 (UTC) (This post was copied from talk page Chuck Marean's talk page --SquidSK 16:27, 11 October 2006 (UTC))

My edit was ". . .Misplaced Pages articles should not include instruction - advice (legal, medical, or otherwise), suggestions, or contain "how-to"s. This includes tutorials, walk-throughs, instruction manuals, video game guides, and recipes.descriptions of how things are done in this world, being things, should still be from a neutral point of view. . ." As you can see, the statement I struck out is way too strong. It would lead to disputes over discriptions of things that happen. Furthermore, I've found articles that sound like how-to articles in Misplaced Pages and I've looked for them as well. I think the concern is about such articles giving bad advice such as bad advice some kid on Greys Anatomy got, which proves the statement might be only a few weeks old --Chuck Marean 17:09, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Once upon a time, Misplaced Pages not only contained how-tos, it contained guidelines encouraging their creation and giving advice on how to write them. See Misplaced Pages:How-to. I happened to like this (and felt it was in the true spirit of early encyclopedias). When Wikibooks got started, for whatever reason a consensus developed that such articles belong in WIkibooks and not in Misplaced Pages. I personally happen to disagree with this, but I can also say that it is quite clear to me that there really is such a consensus, so I suggest shrugging your shoulders and tolerating it.
The concern is not about inaccurate how-tos, it's about the consensus of the community on what belongs in an encyclopedia. The consensus against how-tos, accurate or not, has been firm for at least two years.
If you don't believe me, try creating an article consisting of nothing but a cooking recipe and see how long it survives.
SquidSK is reporting accurate information about current Misplaced Pages policy and I think efforts to change it would be wasted. Dpbsmith (talk) 18:47, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Instruction manuals

In Misplaced Pages:What Misplaced Pages is not#Misplaced Pages is not an indiscriminate collection of information, in the subheading of Instruction manuals is wrongly states "Misplaced Pages articles should not include instruction - advice (legal, medical, or otherwise), suggestions, or contain "how-to"s." It continues, "This includes tutorials, walk-throughs, instruction manuals, video game guides, and recipes." Before that is says "While Misplaced Pages has descriptions of people, places, and things..." Well, descriptions of things often need to include how things are done. One of the main reasons people read an encyclopedia is to find out what is done. Without how-to, how the US congress works and what an car is would have to be deleted. There are plenty of editors to prevent articles about how to commit a crime. A different site likeWikihow ignores the fact that Misplaced Pages is what shows up on Google and that an encyclopedia is supposed to provide information, and it also ignores the fact that it is next to impossible to write about anything without including how things are done and what goes on. It seems to me whoever wrote "should not include instruction. . ." was wrong. There's no way to write about any subject without describing some of what goes on. Furthermore, if someone wants to look up in an encyclopedia the basics of how something is done, it ought to be there. This can be done without addressing the reader directly. Therefore, "Instruction manuals" statement needs to stress more the part that says,"Misplaced Pages has descriptions of people, places, and things..." -- Chuck Marean 23:37, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Have you read any of the archived discussion about why the community chose to exclude instructional material from the encyclopedia? If not, I strongly encourage you to do so. Until you can make a proposal which addresses the concerns which were raised back then, your comments are largely going to fall on deaf ears. Rossami (talk) 00:23, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Plot summaries part 3

Noting the discussion from:

The current wording of WP:NOT#Misplaced Pages is not an indiscriminate collection of information point 7:

  • "Plot summaries. Misplaced Pages articles on works of fiction should contain real-world context and sourced analysis, offering detail on a work's achievements, impact or historical significance, not solely a summary of that work's plot. A plot summary may be appropriate as an aspect of a larger article, or as part of a series of articles per Misplaced Pages:Article series."

Without getting into the debate of whether or not we should have plot-based articles or not, I think the current policy might be too suggestive in it's wording. I propose we change the wording to:

  • "Plot summaries. Misplaced Pages articles on works of fiction should contain real-world context and sourced analysis, offering detail on a work's achievements, impact or historical significance, not solely a summary of that work's plot. A plot summary may be appropriate as an aspect of a larger topic."

Simple, less instructions creep, discourages cruft, and gives room for reasonable interpretation without losing too much meaning. Thoughts? -- Ned Scott 04:23, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

I like the Misplaced Pages:Article series sentence. It allows for individual episode pages when the List of episodes page entry gets too long, without requiring you to find other things to say about the episode. If we're talking cruft, I think the best way to get rid of it is a hard cap. For instance, no more than 500 words of plot detail per half hour of television (200?, 700?). Yes, a lot of pages will balloon up to the number (as they're doing now), but then those 500 words will be improved instead of expanded. - Peregrinefisher 08:52, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
The Misplaced Pages:Article series sentence is what bothers me. It's too suggestive that this is an acceptable alternative, when that conclusion has yet to be reached by a consensus (for fictional articles dealing with summary-only-articles). It also suggests a loop hole out of this policy altogether.
The point is that the alternative wording does not restrict this in either way. It doesn't say you can't, but it also doesn't say you should. Not only that, but what is or isn't its "own" article is sometimes just a minor technicality, so wording it "by topic" is more accurate and doesn't lose the original meaning of the policy addition. -- Ned Scott 09:14, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
I like the current version (i.e. - with the article series language). It's an accurate statement of the article series guideline. AFAICT, your suggested language has the same bottom line, but I think the current language is clearer. Thanks, TheronJ 11:34, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
There is no consensus that being apart of an article series is adequate to be exempt from the policy. And it poses a big problem as a potential loop hole that could allow anything, as long as it was apart of an article series, to be exempt from the plot summary policy. The wording for the article series note is just too suggestive in that sense. -- Ned Scott 11:45, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
With regard to consensus, I'd put it the other way, that without the "article series" compromise, there wasn't concensus that WP:NOT should exclude plot summaries at all. I don't think the problem is the article series language -- Misplaced Pages:Article series is a fine guideline, and I don't see the problem with applying it evenly. Do we need more guidance on how the summaries need to be interlinked with other information? TheronJ 13:13, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
I think the problem is that while many articles do not exist solely as plot summary repositories, the plot summary overwhelms the article. I see this a lot with WP:COMIC, wherein articles about major characters, such as Wolverine or Magneto, half or more of the article is plot summary. The length of the plot summary in an article that contains more than just plot summary is unchecked by this policy. --NewtΨΦ 14:28, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
I like the change. I do not like plot summary articles at all. TV episode articles I do not have a problem with because there is more to discuss than just plot, but even then, summaries should be tiny. --Chris Griswold (☎☓) 14:04, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

I understand Chris and Newt's concern, but I'd much rather we try to develop a guideline or policy about the scope of plot summaries, either as a new guideline or for inclusion here and/or in WP:WAF, as I suggested above. I don't think this proposed change gets at the core issues, and I think it needlessly contradicts Misplaced Pages:Article series. TheronJ 15:00, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

  • My point is that if people are unsatisfied with the current guidance on plot summaries or think it's unclear, we should clarify it. If people think that WP:WAF is currently clear guidance on the scope of plot summaries, then we can stick with that. However, IMHO, there's no reason to say that out of all the different pieces of an article that can be spun out as part of an article series, plot is the only one that can't. TheronJ 17:22, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
  • The other sections would all contain sourced analysis, making them viable articles on their own, whereas a plot summary has no sourced analysis, and draws entirely from primary sources, which is to be avoided (though not explicitly barred). --NewtΨΦ 17:36, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
  • I like the new wording. It closes the loophole in a manner in keeping with WP:BEANS, whilst leaving the door open to case by case consensus. I think the guidance on writing about fiction and this rewording would allow an article solely summarising plot, as long as it contained publication details and sourced analysis of the authorial voice. I think the consensus is clear that plot summaries which basically regurgitate the plot aren't part of our remit. Steve block Talk 18:38, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
  • If it will help to reduce the number of Ultimate Fantastic Four (story arcs) and similar articles out there, I'm for it. --NewtΨΦ 19:51, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Not sure there's really all that much of a problem with the current wording. --badlydrawnjeff talk 19:59, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Question: I'm not clear on whether this change leaves the issue of plot summary subarticles undecided or sets Misplaced Pages policy forbidding plot summary subarticles. If I understand the comments above, Steve Block and Ned Scott understand the change to leave the issue open to a case by case consensus, and Newt and Chris Griswold understand the change to be an important step in ridding Misplaced Pages of plot summary subarticles, particularly with regard to comics. Is that fair? TheronJ 20:01, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
    • I think that's fair, at least from my standpoint. It's important to note that Steve block still says that a summary sub-article would need "sourced analysis of the authorial voice", which from my interpretation means it would still need to be more than just a summary. --NewtΨΦ 20:13, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
  • I think that this is a question of scale. Plot summaries are entirely alright, they are even probably a necessary part of a good article about a work of fiction. The problem is that what we have in many articles are not summaries but rather abridged versions of the book/play/screenplay. The appropriate length of a summary obviously depends on many factors, including the length of the work, but maybe we could say something like "for most works, summaries should be 1-3 paragraphs long"? Zocky | picture popups 20:45, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
    • In most cases, this isn't an issue, because the plot summaries don't need to be too long. (For example, the plot summary of Hamlet, while long, is not so long as to require its own article. Similarly, even though Misplaced Pages probably has megawords of summaries of plots of the several hundred Star Trek episodes, those don't need subarticles because Misplaced Pages has one article for each episode of each of the shows. (See, e.g., Category:Star Trek: Deep Space Nine episodes). This is really an issue in anime, manga, and comic books, where a given title may have hundreds of issues or episodes, and the debate centers over whether to summarize the plot of the entire run or not. (See, e.g. Plot of Naruto, which I believe covers about 70 issues of the comic and episodes of the cartoon, or List of The Amazing Spider-Man comics). TheronJ 20:59, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

I dislike the implication that it's okay to add story detail you want as long as it's part of an article series. This thinking has given us no less than seventeen articles on a single game, in one case. If this is the current endorsed practice, I think we need to rethink the current practice. If this is merely a loophole, then let's close the loophole. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 20:54, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

  • I agree that 17 articles is too many for a game, but think that a plot summary subarticle for the first 70 episodes of Naruto is an appropriate part of the Naruto series of articles. That's why I would prefer to have a Plot Summary guideline or policy rather than trying to approach it this way. TheronJ 21:02, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
    • We already have it. It's at WP:WAF. I endorse A Man In Black. A plot summary sub-article should not be a loophole, it should be an exceptional circumstance. If Hamlet does not need it, I'd say we don't need it full-stop. Plot of Naruto I clearly needs editing to bring it into line with WP:WAF, it's all in-universe. There's no clear reason why it needs to exist separate of the main article. Steve block Talk 11:25, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

The current wording is clear and exists for a reason: To keep detailed plot summaries out of the overview article. The policies on how much is too much when it comes to plot summaries and when plot summaries are relevant at all need clarified, but making this page more ambiguous won't help. --tjstrf 20:58, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

  • You have a misapprehension: the current wording was not formulated to keep detailed plot summaries out of the overview article. It was formulated because the consensus is that Misplaced Pages is not a repository for plot summaries. Steve block Talk 15:28, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Should we include a reminder about avoiding original research? Most plot summaries I've seen are unsourced and appear to be the based on the editors' impressions of the works. -Will Beback 21:37, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
In practice, that's more or less deemed okay, as long as the plot summaries don't attempt to do any interpretation of ambiguous details and stick to straightforward description of what happens. I think this might be covered under the "descriptive claims the accuracy of which is easily verifiable by any reasonable adult without specialist knowledge" clause of WP:NOR. A lot of recent popular culture FAs have been promoted using the work itself as a source for the plot. — TKD::Talk 01:06, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

I have a question about what exactly constitutes a "plot summary" article in the first place. Are character/plot aspect/location in fictional works articles lumped into this category as well, and should always be discouraged or outright deleted? If this is the case then there are probably thousands of articles on Misplaced Pages which fall into that grouping, including such pages as Luke Skywalker, The Force, Azeroth, Master Chief, Batman, Cid etc. Nearly all of these are "plot summary" in most respects, as they do not (in most cases) have much of a real-world impact, or sourced commentary.

I'm sorry if this is not exactly on topic, but it seems to me to be related to the discussion of this issue. -- Grandpafootsoldier 05:01, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Lots of articles have plot info in them, entirely appropriately. The only problem is when that's all you have in there. --Masamage 05:23, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Plot summaries - was there consensus?

I won't revert, but I strongly disagree that a consensus exists. In the future, I would encourage some kind of poll to test the existence consensus, or dispute resolution in an attempt to reach one. In this case, I think the split came down as follows:

  1. Support proposed change - 7 editors, as follows
    1. Support because the change will allow, but not encourage, plot summary sub-articles - 4 editors: Ned Scott, Steve block, Rossomi, Masamage
    2. Support because the change will forbid plot summary subarticles - 3 editors: Newt, A Man In Black, ChrisGriswold
  2. Oppose proposed change - 4 editors:Peregrinefisher, TheronJ, User:Tjstrf, Badlydrawnjeff
  3. Comments that can't be defined as supporting or opposing - 4 editors: Zocky, Will Beback, TKD, Grandpafootsoldier

I've taken some guesses on who falls into which camp, but in part that would have been ameliorated by a poll, which would have confirmed who held which opinion and therefore tested for consensus. Looking at the numbers, I don't think that a 7 to 4 (64%/36%) split, although a respectable majority, constitutes a consensus in favor of the 7. I strongly would have preferred dispute resolution in an attempt to reach an actual consensus. Thanks, TheronJ 14:43, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

P.s.: Steve - I've included your comment in the new heading as relevant to this "consensus" wrap-up - please feel free to move your comment above the heading if you disagree. TheronJ 14:43, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Tone of what user pages are not changed

I softened the tone of the text about user pages; we're not actively trying to keep people from sharing information about themselves, their favorite WP topics, their editing habits, or their beliefs that will be useful to others. More specifically, user pages were invented in order to promote useful social networking along Misplaced Pages lines; this should not be obscured. This page shouldn't denounce social networks per se; only the use of WP for unrelated social networking. Newbies shouldn't be scared of writing about themselves. +sj + 23:25, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

We have a massive problem with spam and other abuses of the userspace. This does not seem to be the right time to be liberalizing the wording on that particular clause. Rossami (talk) 02:29, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

There are more than 2 directions a policy can take. One can crack down on spam and liberalize appropriate talk at the same time. HighInBC 03:50, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Now the Discussion on Voting

What is wrong with this revision?:

Misplaced Pages is not an experiment in democracy or any other political system. Its primary method of determining consensus is discussion. Sometimes, polls or votes also help determine and validate consensus, but editors should exercise caution and not allow a polls to curtail discussion.

If this is a contentious part of the policy (as I am told), is this really a policy that has consensus then? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Blue Tie (talk • contribs) October 15, 2006 (UTC)

The question is, why does it need to be changed? It clearly states that voting is not to be treated as binding. HighInBC 03:16, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Then we should probably not allow any of the request for deletes to be binding based upon a vote of say 95%. I have never actually seen a discussion on that, just a vote which is then declared to fall some direction and then closed. We should also not permit any more admins to be annointed based upon a vote because, after all, that would be binding.
Please note that my edit avoids the problem of votes either being binding or non-binding.
Finally, any policy that discourages polls should be modified to reflect that polls are a tool to help build concensus -- because, in fact, they are.
Thanks for adding my name last time. I was rushing and missed it. --Blue Tie 03:28, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

It is all about consensus. The XfD's that have gone through are in spirit with the consensus policy, same goes with the RfA. I also do not see how it discourages polls.

Regardless of my opinion my main concern is that time for discussion take place, leave it a day or two and see what people have to say about your edit. HighInBC 03:48, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

I think if the XfD's that have gone through are in the spirit with consensus policy and so is RfA, then so is my edit. Nothing about it contradicts WP:CON. However, the current version discourages polls by a reference to "Voting is Evil" and also by too much caution without specifics and a statement that they are not to be binding. I believe this actually injures policy. Taken together, and in practice, this statement and others is used frequently to discourage or squelch polls -- which is a form of squelching discussion and avoiding consensus. It has happened to me several times and I accepted it until I understood that it was actually NOT policy that voting is evil. But I agree... I would like to see the discussion. --Blue Tie 04:00, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
When editing official policy it is always best to talk before editing, wait a while and see how people feel about the change. I will go with the consensus. No hurry. HighInBC 04:13, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
I was going with WP:BRD. If that is bad, then perhaps that should be tagged as doubtful advice. But I have a second question: How will you validate consensus? --Blue Tie 04:17, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
You seem to be arguing that consensus and procedure are different things. Is there a source you can cite for that view? --Blue Tie 03:00, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
There is a greater need to discuss official policy than regular pages, as for WP:BRD, this is an essay that was wrote and is not policy related. The template at the top of the article mentions this. HighInBC 12:43, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
BRD is bad advice because it lacks context. I see what it's trying to do in spirit, but it will lead to situations like this. With highly used policies and guidelines it is almost always preferred to have discussion first. Even simple rewording, with good intentions, can be the source of problems. But, as said above, it's an essay and essays are just supposed to get you to think about things, rather than being advice to trust right off the bat. -- Ned Scott 19:58, 16 October 2006 (UTC)


My bad and I apologize. However, what is wrong with the edit that I suggested? --Blue Tie 03:00, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Misplaced Pages talk:What Misplaced Pages is not Add topic