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Note: Check your sources

In this article, there are at least two references to dubious sources. First, generally speaking, a journalist is not an expert, he/she is a reporter. Hence the quote from Mr. Azizi Bani-Torof is at best a personal opinion, and not supported by any credible source. Second, Mr. Pour Pirar is not a historian. Whatever he is (popular writer, gadfly, ...) no one in the historical community (or the scientific community in general) takes him seriously. I suggest we should drop these references to comply with the fact based nature of Misplaced Pages. Mrjahan

I agree with above. If anyone is under any misapprehension about the credibility of Pour Pirar and his conspiracy theories they should look at http://www.turkiran.com/554%20hamvatan%20setizi.htm. In this he argues that Persian history is only 150 years old, that all that came before is a fabrication and that Iran was terra nullius before the coming of Arabs because of a Jewish Massacre of all Iranians at the time of Esther. I have removed the reference to this crack-pot anti-semite and someone has reverted the article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 144.139.193.12 (talk • contribs) 16:07, 21 October 2006.

I also doubt the factuality of his Bani-Torof's assertion that Arabs lived in Khuzestan before the coming of the Aryans. Were the Elamites Arabs? No.Khosrow II 02:53, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Referring me to a website in Persian doesn't improve matters, anon, since I can't read Persian. It certainly sounds like crackpottery, but how am I to know that you've paraphrased correctly? Also, Bani Torof is one of the few sources we have, in English, for the Khuzestani Arab POV. I don't like to see his views given short shrift. Perhaps you could find some other scholars from that camp to quote? Quotes in Persian or Arabic, if necessary, but translate.

I've been spreading myself too thin and haven't kept an eye on this article, but I am suspicious of all attempts to cast the Arabs as later interlopers who can therefore be dispossessed in favor of Persians if so desired. We know that there was an Arab kingdom, the Lakhmids, under the suzerainty of the Sassanids, located nearby; we know that the area was under the rule of the Umayyad and Abassid caliphates for many centuries, and that the Arabic language spread and prospered under their rule. Genetic studies have shown that the spread of a language doesn't necessarily mean that everyone who speaks that language is genetically related to the original speakers (very few of the South Asians who speak English have British blood). So it's basically indeterminate whether the current Khuzestani Arabs are genetic Arabs who have been settled there for many centuries, Arabs who were later migrants, pre-Islamic conquest inhabitants who adopted the Arab language and culture, or a mixture of all three (in unknown proportions). We'd need a lot more genetic, historical, and archaelogical studies to know more. Zora 05:03, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Zora, he is no historian, and no scholar. I myself can prove his theory wrong. He has no credibility. I'm removing his theory until you can show me he his a credible historian and scholar, and that this isnt just his crazy theory. He can so easily be proven wrong.Khosrow II 20:48, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Dispute

Bani-Torof writes in the preface to the published speech, "Also after delivering this speech I found new sources that prove that the indigenous Arabs of Khuzestan used to live in the area before the coming of the Aryans to the Iranian plateau. These sources include “A Pause and Reflection on History of Iran- 12 Centuries of Silence” by historian Nasser Pourpirar and “The Complete History of the Pre-Islamic Arabs” by Professor Javad Ali. Two volumes of the 10 volumes of the latter work have been translated into Persian by the late Dr.Mohammad Hussien Rohani."

According to WP policy this man and the men he is quoting is are a reliable source. This article reminds me of problem with fictional history on Kurdish people. Since another person has validly shown that Pourpirar is also a racist and Anti-Semite, we should fix this problem. If others dont agree I suggest a request for comment on the issue so others can say what they think. Khorshid 10:41, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Are you sying Bani-Taarof is or is not a reliable source? because it seems to me he is not.--129.111.68.21 19:27, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

The Iranian Arab journalist and writer Yusef Azizi Bani-Torof, in a speech given in 1999, claims that the historical ancestry of Khuzestani Arabs "goes back to 6 main tribes. They consider themselves to have sprung from a common ancestry and we see this in the Aalam al-Insab." Bani-Torof has also said that "the Arab people of Khuzestan are not Arabic-speakers. By that I mean they were not Persians, Kurds or Lurs who changed their language to Arabic and are now referred to as Arab-speakers." He further believes that "the indigenous Arabs of Khuzestan used to live in the area before the coming of the Aryans to the Iranian plateau."

I think this part is also a problem. Since this is his opinion we should put it on his article. About Arab Iranian POV that is what is called a non sequitor. The Misplaced Pages policy is to show NPOV but it has to have reliable source be verifiable. I think the article could use a peer review to identify problems. Khorshid 10:50, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

This guy is obviously not a historian nor scholar, this is just his own theory, and its probably not based on anything credible. This needs to be removed immediatly.Khosrow II 20:47, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Bani-Torof has written 20 books on ethnic minorities in Iran. He is a noted author. Disagree with him and contest him, but don't just censor out what he has said because he has quoted a few words from a book by someone you think is a racist. He may be right, he may be wrong. There may be no right or wrong. Who cares? It is not for us to decide.--88.109.10.50 23:56, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

That still does not change the fact that he is a journalists, and that he does not specialize in history. His claim that Arabs lived in Khuzestan before the Aryans even came is pure historical revisionism. So who were the Elamites? Arabs? No.Khosrow II 03:52, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

I think that Zora is correct in stating that there are a range of ideas about the native Arab population of Khuzestan and where they came from. It is not historical revisionism to have these debates. Bani Torof is one of those who has a particular viewpoint on this. A good way of cleaning up the article is to present all the arguments on the origins of the Ahwazi Arabs, instead of just Bani Torof's. This would hopefully bring the NPOV balance that you are seeking.--88.110.178.162 01:40, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Bani Torof's theory is ludicours. Will Durant states that there were no more than 500,000 Arabs in all of the Middle East before the Islamic invasions. This means that total, from northern Saudi Arabia to Libya, to Anatolia, to Afghanistan, there were only 500,000 Arabs total. Also, how does Bani Torof explain the Elamites, who were the ones in Khuzestan before the Aryans came. Does he claim them to be Arabs, because thats the only way his theory works.Khosrow II 01:44, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

In the document this article links to, Bani Torof quotes Ahmad Karavi as saying "The Arabs immigration to Iran postdates that of to Syria and Iraq, what is certain and there is proof for, is that the date of that immigration is centuries before Islam, and from the early days of the Sassanid. In the Parthian era the gates of Iran were open to the Arabs…" He also makes references to Tabari and others to support his argument. Would you say Karavi and Tabari are revisionists? Clearly, there were Arabs in the region during the Elamite era - how many is the question. I can't see any claim that Elamites were Arabs in this document. He quotes one scholar saying "there are traces of Elamite civilization which belongs to the Achaemenid, Parthian, and Arab era, and there are many signs of those eras in this place", but this is not the same as saying that Elamites were all Arabs.--88.110.178.162 01:56, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

This claims are so senseless that they dont deserve a response. No evidence of Arabs during Elamite period. Show the evidence or don't talk about it anymore. Khorshid 15:03, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Bani Torof provides the evidence that Arabs were present during the Elamite era using respected Iranian scholars such as Karavi and Tabari - who are reliable sources. Read the speech he gave, instead of making assumptions.--88.110.190.21 16:36, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Let's get real folks

Mr. bani-Torof might have written a lot of things, and he might be a very nice person. But he still is not a historian or an expert. He is a journalist/reporter with very limited education, and unfortunately dabbles in issues unrelated to his expertise where he knows very little. As a result his opinions and statements can not be taken seriously. Misplaced Pages is supposed to be an Encyclopedia, not a public relation platform for wannabe politicians. Keep that in mind.

While his imprisonment and denial of his civil liberties are all very regretable, I still can not see how his personal views should be taken more seriously than established scholars because he is a prolific writer of popular newpaper articles. His views on economics and dynamics of poverty are laughable, as are his historical views. What he is good at, is letting others know about very real political grievences of ethnic Arabs today. For this particular line of work, he deserves our respect. Apart from that, he does not make a whole lot of sense.

Take this example: "However, according to Yusef Azizi Bani-Torof in a lecture at the Industrial University of Isfahan in 1999, based on information from unofficial provincial census data gathered in 1996 by the Centre for Iran Studies and published in 1997, "the population of Arabs in southwestern Iran is 4,548,240. And the ratio to Iran's total population is: 4,548,240/65,000,000 = 6.997%."

I have been working with Iranian data for over 10 years now. I have never seen this source "unofficial provincial census data" or "the Centre for Iran Studies". There are a dozen "Centers of Iran/Iranian Studies" across the world. Where is this particular center? How was this data compiled and how was it published? All the references to bani-Torof's work are from one bad translation of an informal speech. Is this what you consider checking your facts? Is this how you want to represent NPOV? I feel sorry for you then.

Zora basically is blocking cleaning up of this article because he/she admits that he/she does not have access to good sources and/or does not have the time and ability to update the state of his/her knowledge. Well, from where I stand, this sounds like a personal shortcoming and has nothing to do with keeping a neutral POV. If you do not have anything to contribute, please do not block others who are better informed. --Mrjahan October 21, 2006.

Bani Torof has made a detailed argument that you may disagree with, yet it is one that is used as a basis for argument among Ahwazi Arabs and it deserves to be included. The only way an English speaker can judge for himself is by reading the translation of his speech. One doesn't know if it is a good or bad translation. The fact that it is accompanied by other references stating other figures should enable the reader to come to their own judgement. Tell me how many other scholars have written on this issue. I would like to see a bibliography of all the "established scholars" who have written on the subject of the demography of Khuzestan.--88.110.178.162 01:36, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Wikipeda doesnt work like that as we've all shown. Reliable sources, always. Khorshid 15:01, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

You are saying that only "establishment scholars" should be quoted on the issue of the demography of the Arabs of Khuzestan and I am asking you who these people are. As far as I can see, Bani Torof is the only person to attempt to quantify these numbers.--88.110.190.21 16:39, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Can't have it both ways

You can't delete references to an Iranian Arab writer in this article spuriously claiming a lack of verifiability, yet demanding that an unsourced, unreferenced POV is included in an article on an Iranian Arab in another article, intending to denigrate an historical Iranian Arab leader. I don't know if there is any agenda at work here, but at least be consistent.--88.110.190.21 17:03, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Bani Torof is not a reliable source, this has already been discussed, notice the other messages on this talk page.Khosrow II 17:06, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi "ahwaz"! You are breaking WP rules by using your ip address instead of account to start edit war. Bad idea! Also on the other article I see a list of good references so its important not to hide the history! Thanks! Khorshid 17:48, 25 October 2006 (UTC)