Talk:Khalistan movement - Misplaced Pages

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Clarification sough - Khalistan

During the Partition Punjab was split. Do Khalistan also seek the Punjab territory which is in Pakistan? Or just he portion in India.

Can the article be updated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.168.219.54 (talk) 13:02, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

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Copyright problem removed

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Lack of Information

To Those Whom It May Concern,

I personally believe that this article is very highly biased in telling the true story of khalistan period. According to what I know, the khalistanis were hardcore terrorist killers of innocents and they massacred entire families of innocents in their time and much of the innocent victims of these terrorists were from their own religion, Sikhism! So I personally believe that this article here is highly biased in telling the true story of the dark days of khalistani struggle. Atleast the website admin. needs to take a look at this article. I wanted to note down my opinion about this article so after knowing the true reality of khalistani terrorists, innocent people may stay away from such bad people. That's all. Thank you. User:Wjkk20 February 15, 2018. —Preceding undated comment added 08:43, 15 February 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for your kind comments. Please be specific what changes you would like to see in the article and what things to be added. Misplaced Pages article has to be WP:Neutral so if you feel it is onesided, do let us know what changes needed. You are also welcome to be WP:BOLD and ake those changes with valid WP:Verifiable sources--DBig Xray 10:44, 30 April 2018 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 17 March 2018

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Grammar: end of line three the phrase is "ESPECIALLY Canda" and not "specially Canada" Sani Dhlomo (talk) 10:15, 19 March 2018 (UTC)

Done. —SpacemanSpiff 10:41, 19 March 2018 (UTC)

Summarized the lead section

The article lead was extremely lengthy to be of any use and article had a tag highlighting the same. After several edits, I have moved the irrelevant details into the article subsections and summarized the content in 2 paragraphs. I have also added an update as of 2018. I would request the future editors, not to add too much material into the lead. thanks. --DBig Xray 19:37, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

Being downplayed in India

Hi Elephanthunter, Can you please explain me to where do the source that you included mention that the movement is being "downplayed" in India or even hint at it. This is WP:OR and WP:SYNTH on your path. Plus the other content you added is being given too much WP:WEIGHT to be in the lede. It can be included in the article in the appropriate section. We can discuss the wording of that here before inclusion. Thanks. Adamgerber80 (talk) 06:13, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Adamgerber80, the lede was WP:SYNTH. Police are actively arresting and torturing Khalistan supporters, and warning other countries about pro-Khalistan sects. The evidence of this movement's activity is, quite frankly, overwhelming. But the lede said "the movement is no longer of significance"? I mean, take a look at the citation. It's one politician saying the movement is "no issue", amid debate on whether Khalistan ideologues should even be allowed to spread their point of view. --Elephanthunter (talk) 18:44, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

I find it especially interesting that you have no problem with one politician's offhand comment being taken out of context to make the movement look dead, but when other sources say the movement is active it's WP:WEIGHT? Please. --Elephanthunter (talk) 18:58, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Canada PM in lead

The statement of Canada PM is added in lead as it is an important declaration of the National Policy and Canada's view point of this movement. please check WP:WEIGHT and WP:LEAD. That fact that it is there in the article body below is not enough justification to remove it from the Lead which is a short summary of the article. --DBig Xray 09:17, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

It wasn't a statement of national policy so much as an assurance to Singh himself, who had repeatedly accused Canada of supporting the Khalistan movement. We can have it in the lede under two conditions: 1) In the context of said accusations and 2) If we mention Trudeau said this to Singh himself. --Elephanthunter (talk) 15:57, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

Kindly accept my request to read the page of WP:LEAD first, and then we can talk. Without you reading that page I an sure, this discussion will be futile.--DBig Xray 16:09, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

You actually caught me in the middle of updating my reply to say that, if the Canadian Prime Minister was merely reassuring Singh, that means it is probably not content for WP:LEAD anyway. --Elephanthunter (talk) 16:37, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

Please confirm that you have read the whole page of WP:LEAD and WP:UNDUE today, even if you have read those in past. It is easier to to discuss when we have aclear understanding of the policy. --DBig Xray 16:48, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

I am trying to engage in civil conversation with you. Please just speak your mind an explain calmly. I've read and (just now) re-read the sections on WP:LEAD and WP:UNDUE. My point is, to quote Trudeau as if he was not responding to Singh's accusations misrepresents the situation. That's all. But further, that context changes the weight of Trudeau's comments. After re-reading WP:UNDUE I think it becomes less obvious that Trudeau's comments belong in the lede. --Elephanthunter (talk) 22:20, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

Elephanthunter Please discuss your changes here first. I think you do not understand some Misplaced Pages policies based on your WP:OR earlier. I am also awaiting your response on another page. Adamgerber80 (talk) 16:58, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

Adamgerber80, it's disingenuous to make an edit and then ask that I discuss my changes first. Also, you can't just take a statement out of context and then claim WP:OR. --Elephanthunter (talk) 17:06, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

Currently you are changing a lot of content and not just moving it out of the lede. I am referring to your earlier edits that "the movement was being downplayed by India". Even now, where you have changed the mention of Sikh radialization (which does not violate NPOV) and changed the meaning of the sentence. Please discuss your changes here. Adamgerber80 (talk) 17:29, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

We did have a discussion about the word "downplayed" just above, and I don't believe you responded to me. --Elephanthunter (talk) 22:36, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

Because I was still awaiting your answer on the other page which is related to this. Also, please stop creating your own rules about NPOV and respond to the queries that have been raised. Please refrain from editing the page unless we have cleared these issues. Adamgerber80 (talk) 03:07, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

@Elephanthunter: Your edits are getting very disruptive currently and it seems your understanding of WP:NPOV is incorrect. Please discuss these edits here. And I did not follow you to this page. I have been editing and watching over this page for a long time (including 24 May, 19 May, 29 April, 22 April, 17 March, 7 March, 25 February to name the latest ones). Please look at the page history before you make baseless accusations on other editors. Adamgerber80 (talk) 03:20, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

@Adamgerber80: you came here to make edits after attempting to remove Khalistan from List of active separatist movements in Asia. There you were censoring this group, making the argument they are "inactive" (which is false), and then when you claimed the group does not exist within India (even though Indian citizens are being arrested?) It was confusing, to say the least. And now you care about WP:OR, WP:LEAD, etc. but only when anyone makes any update that doesn't paint this group as extremist. --Elephanthunter (talk) 03:28, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

@Elephanthunter: I have answered to the inclusion of this on the talk page there. I am currently discussing content based on sources and Misplaced Pages guidelines. Unfortunately, it seems either you do not understand these rules or do not want to follow them making it a case of WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Please discuss based on sources. Just because some India citizens have been arrested does not make an entire movement active again. This is where your WP:SYNTH comes in. On your point of militant and extremist, these are WP:NPOV words on Misplaced Pages and have been used across multiple pages and are supported by sources. Please discuss on these basis. Adamgerber80 (talk) 03:34, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

@Adamgerber80: Just because the words "extremist" or "militant" are used on other pages does not mean those words are suddenly NPOV in all situations. You're pushing an Indian nationalist view pretty hard here, but Misplaced Pages articles should stay professional and neutral. Also, I am familiar with Misplaced Pages's rules. --Elephanthunter (talk) 03:47, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

@Elephanthunter: If you are indeed familiar with the rules of Misplaced Pages then please explain to me how is militant violating NPOV here? If a WP:RS is supporting it, then it can be included. Misplaced Pages does not allow using the word terrorist which puts this in the negative light. Any movement which takes arms is referred to as a militant (I hope you get this). Also, please reply to concerns I have raised earlier on how you arrived at this movement to be "active" on the relevant page. Lastly, please do not attribute anyone to a view and treat everyone with respect (the same way I have treated you with one and not called you a particular side or the other). Adamgerber80 (talk) 03:55, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

@Elephanthunter: Thanks for re-reading the WP:LEAD and WP:UNDUE again on my WP:Civil request. we will descuss the disputes in order. please respond immediately after the subthreads to prevent confusion.

Dispute 1: the word "MILITANT" and "EXTREMIST" vs"GROUPS" and "SUPPORTERS"

As I can see your reply above. It is clear that you consider the word "MILITANT" and "EXTREMIST" as non neutral. Please share your source supporting this claim (with link to exact policy and Reliable source). If you really are familiar with Wiki Policies this should never have arisen in the first place. Armed murderers and shooters cannot be mentioned in the article as mere Supporters. WP:NPOV does not mean Facts will be watered down in a motivated effort to make them appear more palatable. You should immediately go and read before responding Misplaced Pages:NPOV means neutral editors, not neutral content --DBig Xray 07:03, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

Dispute 2: adding CANADA PM Statement in LEAD

If you have really read the WP:LEAD as you say, can you explain (with link to exact policy and Reliable source) why you feel that CANADA PM statement about DENYING SUPPORT to revival of KHALISTAN does not deserve to be in LEAD ? --DBig Xray 07:03, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

Of course. Trudeau's comments were made in a meeting with Chief Minister of Punjab Amarinder Singh, as a defense against accusations from Singh. Singh has a history of accusing Canada of supporting the separatists, and had even refused to meet with Trudeau the previous year over this grudge. If we only say "Trudeau promised not to support the separatists", as if there were some crackdown, or as if Trudeau wasn't literally just responding to a dude who accused him of the opposite, it is a violation of WP:BALASP under WP:UNDUE. What action has Trudeau even taken to make this WP:LEAD material? Why are we even talking about the Canadian Prime Minister in the lede? What's next, the UK's response? It's inappropriate because this is an article about Khalistan. Trudeau's diplomatic escapades are at least two degrees separated from that. I mean, it's honestly very interesting, but all of that information and nuance about Trudeau belongs in a section down below. --Elephanthunter (talk) 07:58, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

References

"Amarinder Singh meets Justin Trudeau and Canada's 'Khalistani sympathiser' minister". Times of India. Retrieved 8 June 2018.

Your choice of words shock me, ( Dude for CM and PM ) Are you trying to say that Trudeau and Amarinder discussion happened in a Mens toilet and whatever came out of it is garbage ? Please think about your arguement once more. Whatever statement was made from Tudeau who is the PM is the CANADA GOVT. It is not like he came out of the meeting nad reached Canada back to say, he supports Independent Khalistan. This statement of Not allowing a Revival of Khalistan movement is Canada's Policy and he merely re-iterated it and this will remain CAnada's official position until there is another PM who comes and changes this. Canada PM declaration deserves the place in Lead because of the Huge Sikh Population (after India) and the Several extremist incidents and support that Khalistanis got from Canada (e.g. Kanishk Plane Bombing). The fact that there are some Sikh people sympathetic to the Khalistani cause, does not mean Canada as a nation is asking for Khalistan. Canada's official statement on Khalistan hence deserves a space in the Lead and more details in the article body. if WP:YOUDONTLIKEIT it does not mean the fact becomes DUDE's TRASH TALK and should be ignored, You should have a valid arguement for taking it out of the lead. --DBig Xray 08:39, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

References

"India gives Trudeau list of suspected Sikh separatists in Canada". he told state leaders his country would not support anyone trying to reignite the movement for an independent Sikh homeland called Khalistan. {{cite news}}: Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |work= (help)

Khalistan suspended from Unrepresented Nations and Peoples Organization in 1995

The article Unrepresented Nations and Peoples Organization mentions that Khalistan was suspended from the organization in 1995, and I'm checking around online but not finding any proof of that, nor explanation as to why that is, so if someone comes across such information, that would be good to add. Interestingly enough, Khalistan isn't even listen in the "former members" section of the UNPO's website, but I found one single .pdf on their site that appears to mention them as a member: http://www.unpo.org/downloads/Self-determination%20conference%201993.pdf

Just one interesting facet that it would be good to clear up. MatthewVanitas (talk) 03:15, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

@MatthewVanitas: This is interesting. I did do a quick search in google books since I assumed that something like this might not appear in a news search but found little information about its suspension. Most books also state that Khalistan was indeed inducted in 1993. But the website does not find any mention of Khalistan in its current members. This leads me to believe that either Khalistan was removed or left at some moment in time. I will continue to look a bit more on this. Adamgerber80 (talk) 03:26, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

Thats expected. Per Foreign Media In the 1990s the insurgency petered out,--DBig Xray 06:28, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

References

"India gives Trudeau list of suspected Sikh separatists in Canada". Reuters. Retrieved 22 May 2018.

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