Talk:Falun Gong - Misplaced Pages

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Sibelius Monument (Helsinki)

There is a more-or-less permanent exhibition at the Sibelius Monument (Helsinki): . Not sure of this is notable. It really does seem quite incongruous when one visits. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:42, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

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Should there be mention of Falun Gong's (supposed) WP:Fringe beliefs?

Unicornblood2018 recently inserted content that dramatically shifted the POV of the article by emphasizing some WP:FRINGE beliefs that Falun Gong supposedly holds, such as Li's divine status and the existence of aliens. I removed the edits because they were mostly identical to this source and re-merged some details from the source to the appropriate section in the lede.

My question is: should there be mention of WP:FRINGE beliefs that Falun Gong supposedly holds? Given that this article has weathered a lot of controversy, the current version of the article is a product of compromise and consensus and dramatically shifting its POV would demand a very legitimate reason. Inserting information about Falun Gong's WP:FRINGE beliefs would create a more negative tone, a tone that isn't present in the current article. How we would insert such information without violating WP:NPOV when the topic is so controversial and most information comes either from the Chinese government or from Falun Gong-linked sources is another major question.

Some reliable sources discuss Falun Gong's WP:FRINGE beliefs, including a TIME article that describes its belief that aliens are introducing modern technology in order to start cloning humans, and that a cloned human wouldn't have a soul, with the end game being a total replacement of humanity with human bodies possessed by aliens. To what extent these beliefs are notable is up for debate. Leugen9001 (talk) 16:16, 31 August 2018 (UTC)

Why should politics inhibit us from reasonably raising critical questions about Falun Gong?

Leugen9001 had asked why "aliens" that he labels as "fringe" beliefs of falun gong, should be allowed on the wiki page and then proceeded to acknowledge that the info was still backed by a reliable source.

I wouldn't call aliens as non relevant fringe beliefs. They were conspiracies and dangers warned from the FG leader Li himself and he mentioned stories of aliens both in China and also again in a western interview hence minimal bias. And they are still an interesting part of history in regards to FG. Misplaced Pages is supposed to include all relevant history.

I understand that truth can be twisted or alternatively hard to prove. And being responsible in editing Misplaced Pages is key to ensuring integrity of content.

But I ask you when the Falun gong leader Li claims that there is a dedicated heaven for every 'pure' races and that mixed race people are doomed in not being able to go to heaven.

____Have you ever questioned how he even came up with this concept of heaven?___

You never once seen it as reeking of sexual racism and deliberately against interracial relationships?

That he may just be another bigot with an agenda against race mixing as he basically pulled his own concept of heaven out of thin air and legitimising it as his "spiritual law".

Alot of close minded Conservatives are not uncommonly against interracial relationships and so a religious doctrine that dooms any mixed race offspring just seems like manipulative passive brainwashing to me, of the naive people that thinks that Li is the real deal in spirituality.

Of course that can be just be another crazy conspiracy theory.

So I will back my case from here on by first clearing ambiguity and changing the issue of biases into a non issue by using only Li's own words and writings.

____________

There are plenty of sources that have indicated that Li tried to basically encourage others in refusing modern medicine or listening to their doctors' advice if they became ill.

Why did he do that and why should he not be criticised for being irresponsible?

The government then ridiculed him for being irresponsible in 1999. That is not put on Misplaced Pages for some reason. Why?

My sources that back those facts that Li was advising against modern medicine, are literally written from Li himself.

(Li, 1998b; 1998c; 1999; 2001a

Aliens are more than some fringe belief. It reveals how willing Li is in trying to convince others that he is their "saviour".

Why should we not even question at all how he came up with aliens? For the record, I believe he made those stories up.

What reasonably caused Li to claim himself as an expert in actual aliens and why insist to others that somehow he knew all the conspiracies and dangers of these beings? Classic scaremongering or actual delusions?

Why should this be omitted from Misplaced Pages? I feel there need to be some consideration on how he managed to even come up with his concepts of heaven, harmful medical advice and warnings of aliens?

Or do we shamelessly hold our tongues to avoid being seemingly insensitive to a religion which may just be an actual conman disguising his cult as a legitimate religion.

It's the classic moral loophole. A racist subtly spills hate and uses freedom of speech to protect himself. A living modern day person posing as a buddha uses freedom of religion to protect his cult. When has it been an issue to just say a racist is a racist and a conman is a conman when it's staring right in front of us.

Qigong was not invented by Li. That is an actual fact. Even the hand movements in falun gong came from Thai dancing.

All he added was his stories of aliens, his supernatural exploits, apocalyptic visions, his concept of heaven, teachings that lacked any scientific basis and suddenly it's a "legitimate" religion that sees Li as its saviour and his advice means more than others. Despite his advice is highly questionable.

__________

There are many reliable sources written by Li himself and those sources ironically exposes certain realities.

In one of them, Li tells his followers to deliberately lie to the public and to withhold information about the religion's "higher teachings" to the non falun gong public and instead to tell others that they are just an exercise group.

It would appear to me that it reduces the unneeded "heat" than if they were to call themselves a religion with a divine living leader as its "hero" when operating in the west.

Again the source to back that fact that Li instructs his followers to lie for his religion, literally comes from Li himself.

__________

"The Western media get most of their information about Falun Gong from press releases disseminated by the Rachlin media group. This group is essentially a Public Relations firm for Falun Gong, managed by Gail Rachlin, who is one of Li’s inner circle.

Journalists also get their stories from interviewing participants. However, Li forbids practitioners from talking about what he calls “high level things” to ordinary people, and instructs them to lie to those uninterested in spiritual matters (“tell them that we’re just doing exercises” ). Therefore spokespeople tend to be evasive about their beliefs, and resort to formulaic principles and repetitions of their slogan ‘truthfulness, compassion, forbearance’.

Moreover, Li sets the terms of the debate by directing members to get sympathy by telling listeners about the persecution, with the hidden intention of later turning them into converts (Li cited in Rahn, 2005; see also Li, 2002, 2003a).

Members do not see this strategy as deceptive: a Falun Gong spokesperson told me that by focusing on the persecution and not pushing their religion or leader, members were being inoffensive.

.....The Western media do not usually describe Falun Gong as a cult, because of pressure from Falun Gong, and members tell the media they are just an exercise group. However, as Wong and Liu (1999) observe, Falun Gong seems unusually proselytising for an exercise group. Also, on newcomers’ second or third visits they are given scriptures showing Li’s rejection of those who just do the exercises every day (usually Zhuan Falun, but see also Li, 1997; 1998b).

I noticed that newcomers never returned after they were given the reading material, except for one man who reappeared only to put the books on the table and rush out the door. When – six months into the fieldwork – a member told me that Falun Gong was not about doing the exercises at all, I was not surprised. She had already given me this information via Li’s writings. If the ambiguous – some might say deceptive – recruitment tactics make Falun Gong sound like a cult, we should look further at what exactly a cult is.....

..... If we employ these criteria, Falun Gong could be described as a cult.By his own account Li is the exclusive saviour of the world.

He teaches that members are superior to ordinary people, and they must relinquish “affection for kinsfolk, love between a man and a woman, an affection for parents, feelings, friendship” (Li, 2003b, lecture 4, para. 3).

Also, Falun Gong activities take up large amounts of practitioners’ time each day. To be sure, practitioners are free to exit Falun Gong whenever they want, but this freedom is a physical reality, not a psychological one. As the Chinese members I met had no exposure to other spiritual paths, they believed the peace they experienced in meditation is only available through Falun Gong.

Moreover, if they are left behind in the apocalypse they will suffer horribly (Li, 2000a). (The date of this event is uncertain because Li can use his mystical powers to delay it, but participants were expecting it within the next 25 years.)

                 Heather Kavan

________

Which begs the question. What exactly are these higher teachings that needs to be hidden from the public? What kind of people would trust in those teachings and believe in the supernatural?

Also what kind of person goes around preaching truthfulness yet at the same time also hypocritically forbidding his followers to be completely truthful about his religion?

There are too many smoking guns that are not being addressed. And it's Misplaced Pages's actual purpose to expose these kinds of things yet they are not covered on wiki. Why?

_________ Misplaced Pages is about holistic truths. And not for propaganda that only accepts information if it supports a certain desired image by its most keen editors.

If the inconvenient facts are correct and not false and have my sources like the 1999 Times interview with Hongzhi, they should be included and not buried.

All my questions are not without reason and my stance is that truth should not be censored if it is indeed backed by solid sources.

My answer to the question from the editor Leugen9001 that it's not a fringe belief but the responsible spotlight that highlights blissfully ignored questions.

Like why the actual leader of the religion, would even make such questionable claims in the first place and why should they be legitimised as a religion as they are after all only a few decades old?

And why are their teaching being unconditionally immune to any criticism on Misplaced Pages today by using Orwellian tactics by subtly stating neutral bias must equate to always seeing falun gong positively and nothing less than that , despite there are known truths that ring alarm bells?

Not talking about aliens is just the perfect way to continue keep awareness away from answering those critical questions.

Sources

Li, H. (1997). Falun Dafa: Lectures in the United States, pre-publishing version. Retrieved March 26, 2001, from http://falundafa.org/book/eng/mgjf.htm

Li, H. (1998b). Essentials for further advancement: A Falun Gong practitioner’s guide. Retrieved Feb. 1, 2006, from http://www.falundafa.org/book/eng/jjyz.htm

Li, H. (1998c). Falun Buddha Fa: Lecture at the first conference in North America, March 29-30, New York. Retrieved March 26, 2001, from http://falundafa.org/book/eng/north- america.htm

Li, H. (1999). Falun Dafa lecture in Sydney. Retrieved April 7, 2005, from http://www.falundafa.org/book/eng/xnjf1.htm

Li, H. (2001a). Falun Gong: Principles and exercises for perfect health and enlightenment. MA: Fair Winds Press.

Li, H. (2002). Touring North America to teach the Fa, March. Retrieved Feb. 12, 2005, from http://falundafa.org/book/eng/na_lecture_tour.htm

Li, H. (2003a). Teaching the Fa during the 2003 Lantern festival, Feb. 15. Retrieved June 3, 2005, from http://www.faluncanada.net/library/english/ la2003/la2003_e.doc

Li, H. (2003b). Zhuan Falun: Turning the law wheel. Taiwan: Yih Chyun Corp.

Source of excerpt written by Heather Kavan can be currently downloaded as pdf from the Massey University link below.

https://www.massey.ac.nz/massey/fms/Colleges/College%20of%20Business/Communication%20and%20Journalism/ANZCA%202008/Refereed%20Papers/Kavan_ANZCA08.pdf

Unicornblood2018 (talk) 06:54, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

My intent here is not to say that information regarding certain Falun Gong beliefs that would cast the movement in a negative light should never be included. Instead, I wish to remain neutral on the topic itself and note that there needs to be thorough discussion and consensus, given the complex and controversial nature of this topic. I would also like to note that the current revision of this article is a product of compromise and consensus; thus, although we must improve it in accordance with Misplaced Pages's general editorial practices, we must also take into account the legitimacy of certain decisions that have already been made, and accept or reject different parts of current consensus depending on whether or not they are correct.

Misplaced Pages is supposed to provide WP:DUE weight to different viewpoints. I am not going to comment on whether or not the characterization of Falun Gong as a cult is legitimate. I'm only going to say that Misplaced Pages does not appear to present much evidence supporting the Chinese Government's viewpoint and that we must make sound editorial judgements as to how much of that evidence should be included. We need to look at what reliable sources say and whether or not the characterization of the group as a cult is held by a sizable portion of scholars who are not involved with either the Chinese Government or Falun Gong. --Leugen9001 (talk) 20:39, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

I have reintroduced some of the content that you added. I did so in a body paragraph rather than in the lede because the information would otherwise have dramatically shifted the POV towards a more negative one, which I believe shouldn't be done without sufficient consensus and discussion. --Leugen9001 (talk) 21:12, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

I would furthermore like to note that Misplaced Pages is not supposed to make major decisions about what's true or not because Misplaced Pages does not have the capacity to carry out rigorous WP:Original Research. Instead, per WP:NOTTRUTH, we must go by the consensus of reliable sources. Thus, it doesn't matter how convincingly you argue that Falun Gong is a cult here, since Misplaced Pages is not an avenue for original research and its content must instead be based on what reliable sources say.--Leugen9001 (talk) 21:14, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

Glad to see somebody already chimed in here. I echo the above, and add that we need to ensure that different topics are weighted appropriately. In describing FLG teachings, for example, there's general agreement that this article should provide an overview of the most important aspects of the doctrine and the practices. Given how prolific Li is in his writings and public lectures, we could never hope to describe everything he has ever written.TheBlueCanoe 00:57, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

Dowell, William. "Interview with Li Hongzhi". TIME. Retrieved 31 August 2018.

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