Talk:Jill Valentine - Misplaced Pages

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Jill Valentine has been listed as one of the Video games good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
November 11, 2004	Articles for deletion	Redirected
October 16, 2012	Good article nominee	Not listed
March 17, 2013	Good article nominee	Not listed
January 21, 2015	Good article nominee	Listed
May 21, 2017	Peer review	Reviewed
June 13, 2017	Guild of Copy Editors	Copyedited
August 15, 2017	Featured article candidate	Not promoted
October 5, 2017	Featured article candidate	Not promoted
November 27, 2017	Peer review	Reviewed
May 29, 2018	Featured article candidate	Not promoted
Current status: Good article

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Puzzle Fighter

She is also in puzzle fighter on google play https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=jp.co.capcom.smash.retail — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mathiastck (talk • contribs) 19:41, 16 January 2018 (UTC)

Review

Revisiting my edit from June, for instance, I think the paragraph is worse off for its reversion to the previous format. I think I've already said this before but to briefly recap:

"with the 2011 version of the Guinness World Records Gamer's Edition naming her the 43rd most-popular video-game character of all time" – what is the virtue of these extra factoids? what should a reader do with the knowledge that she is "43rd" (and out of 100? 200?) Or is the point simply that she has been named among the most popular video game characters? Hence what I had written: "Gaming publications, including the Guinness World Records Gamer's Edition, list Valentine among the video game medium's most popular and iconic characters."

I considered this more of an WP:ACCESSIBILITY issue than anything else. The only real difference between either of our phrasings is my inclusion of her being placed at #43 (of 100, BTW). If we used your phrasing, I thought the casual reader might be left wondering, "Well, where did she appear? #1? #100?" If the source is there to cite her position, then why not include it? It's Guinness World Records, after all, which I feel is a notable enough publication for inclusion. Homeostasis07 (talk)

(That link is about technical web accessibility.) If the reader wants to know the ranking, they can read the article. But unless we're putting JV on a scale from Mario to some minor character from another series, I still don't see how knowing #43 answers more questions than it raises. fwiw, I wouldn't consider Guinness WR to be any standard bearer of character ranking. Would need to know more about their methodology. c

The number has been removed. Homeostasis07 (talk)

similarly, with "Complex's Brittany Vincent and Joystick Division's James Hawkins have both ranked the partnership as" – what should the reader do with these two names? does it temper the overall generalization that the partnership (with Redfield) is among the best in video gaming? this sentence regurgitates a brief mention in a source instead of getting at its kernel of truth: that "Her professional relationship with partner Chris Redfield is noted for its basis in loyalty, not romance, and its balance of their personalities: Valentine's intellect and Redfield's brawn." furthermore, listcle/throwaway sources like https://web.archive.org/web/20150103171322/http://www.complex.com/pop-culture/2012/10/the-25-most-a-kicking-video-game-duos/ are not encyclopedic, and not suitable for a quality article, nevertheless FA. If there is need to namedrop the author of the source, the question is what good that namedrop does to be worth its syllabic weight in the sentence.

Please see message below. Homeostasis07 (talk)

btw, much easier to parse wikitext if written with {{r}} instead of <ref>. I can convert by script if you want this.

If you feel strongly about this, feel free to make the change. I've been editing for 12 years, but even I'm not that familiar with {{r}}—a relatively new invention. I'm comfortable with the source formatting as it is now, but if you make these changes, then I may need your assistance if someone at the next FAC raises issues with sourcing. Homeostasis07 (talk)

Check the page history for a version with the simpler template, which I reverted. Feel free to use whichever you prefer. c

in general, the article is jammed with puzzling specifics that make a reader question why that tidbit was important, especially if it doesn't build to some greater point by the end of the paragraph
e.g., third sentence of the article, we're introduced to JV and hear that Mikami was opposed to objectification (in 2014) and then goes right into a descriptive sentence about her sexualized outfit. If it's meant to be coy, that he said the opposite of what he did, it doesn't come across that way, and in any event, I would expect a FA-quality article to have some sourcing or link that asserts this, that despite what Mikami described as his intentions later, she was clearly designed to titillate men/boys.
sometimes you can refer to the sequels as "the sequel"—rather than by name—if it helps the flow of the sentence. The second ¶ introduces Nemesis, Claire, Veronica without going into any detail on any of them, and again itemizes her wardrobe without any clarification. These elements would need to connect. E.g., JV skipped the sequel but returned in the 1999 RE3. Keep the wardrobe discussion to its own paragraph if needed. "no character from Resident Evil 2 could be used for continuity reasons" and "meaning Valentine was the only suitable character remaining": continuity/suitable between what? opaque. Remember, remember that we write for a general audience.

I actually agree with a lot of these last three points. The problem I faced with prose on the outfits was that those two particular costumes are referenced/discussed by multiple sources later in 'Reception', so it felt wrong to have the commentary but not have an as-brief-as-possible description. Another possible issue is the use of the images, which you and two other people have questioned (i.e., if there's enough significance to include them). Since they illustrate those two outfits, it could be argued that they be used in lieu of a prose description, or have the description included as part of their captions. Were they removed at a later date, though, then the prose would need to be added back to the article. But I'm not really free to work on the article right now. I might be able to implement some of these changes tomorrow. Homeostasis07 (talk)

Yep, either way, the prose should build towards something. If the outfit descriptions are important, they should be put in context of some other point, e.g., as illustrations of a style or point about sexualization. czar 03:06, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

Hope that's helpful (not watching, please {{ping}} if needed) czar 15:19, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for replying, @Czar: I hope you don't mind if I respond beneath each point. One thing, though... I think you've made a mistake somewhere along the line. Maybe you accidentally re-read from an older version of the article? For instance, your second point ("similarly, with 'Complex's Brittany Vincent...'), that particular sentence was rephrased some time ago, and the names you mention above are long gone. Homeostasis07 (talk) 00:23, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

Yes, oops, must have pulled that instance from the wrong side of the diff, but the point similarly applies to instances like "Bonnie Ruberg from" "while GamesRadar's Brett Elston said she was" etc. what good that namedrop does to be worth its syllabic weight in the sentence czar 02:55, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

I've only realised now that you must have also derived your last point ("sometimes you can refer to the sequels...") from an earlier version of the article as well @Czar: as the current version is quite a bit different from the text you quoted (i.e., "connective tissue", although I'd happily rephrase what's there if you request). There's still some work for me to do in 'Reception and legacy', but I've taken pretty much everything you've said above (minus the 'connective tissue' point I mentioned) and re-written the 'Concept and design' section. Do you see anything I could further improve upon in that section?Also, I've removed the majority of names from the 'Reception and legacy' section, except Lisa Foiles and Anita Sarkeesian (as they have their own articles), and Lara Crigger and Bonnie Ruberg, who I feel are both notable writers who arguably deserve their own articles at this point as well (not that I have the time to make them). Also Jenny Platz, because she's Unraveling Resident Evil's author. And, unfortunately – and as much as I despise him personally – Bob Mackey is one of the bigger names in gaming writing/reviewing, so I've left his name there as well. Although I do like the idea of people in-the-know reading that sentence and rolling their eyes at the idea of him calling something else "embarrassing". If you want his name removed, have at it... I swear I won't mind. Homeostasis07 (talk) 00:53, 20 September 2018 (UTC)

Why the long Reception quotes? Not seeing what's special about the phrasing that wouldn't be better off paraphrased. Is it trying to make a point about Capcom's strategy or about JV being iconic, because the rest of the paragraph is about the latter. "She might not have the brute strength or obscene 90's hair of some of her counterparts, but when you need a gigantic, genetically-altered zombie taken down, she's the girl to do it." What is this quote meant to impart?

The quotes were attempts to illustrate the latter, since you said at FAC3 that the statements made by these sources needed further clarification within the prose. I've paraphrased both of them now, hopefully not reintroducing aspects of your original complaint back into to the article. Let me know what you think. Homeostasis07 (talk)

I don't agree on naming the rest of the commentators in the Reception but that's your call at this point. If the individuals were "notable writers", they would have their own articles. I would not expect a general audience to know who these publications are, nevertheless their individual writers. E.g., the qualification "Bonnie Ruberg from the same publication included Valentine among the least-sexualized female characters"—not sure what I'm supposed to do with this info. Is Ruberg some vetted standard of female character lists? This is the type of stuff I'd massage into more synthetic/paraphrased sentences. Not sure Lisa Foiles will stay a bluelink for long either, based on the extant sources

All names have been removed, except Lisa Foiles and Anita Sarkeesian, and the quoted text has been rephrased. Homeostasis07 (talk)

"Unraveling Resident Evil" If this isn't independently notable, a general reader would better know this as "a book of essays about the series", which in this instance would be, "in an essay about X in the series" (whatever was the topic of Platz's essay). Also what about the contrast is important: JV is desexualized and Wong uses sexual empowerment to subvert patriarchy—what's the interaction?

I've removed the author's name and added a description of the book. As for your latter point, you'd need to ask SlimVirgin/SarahSV. She was the one who introduced this sentence to the article, or – evidently – you can access the book yourself and rephrase to your own specifications; I'm afraid this is the only source on the entire article I've never been able to access (Google throws a "This book cannot be previewed." message every time I click on it). Homeostasis07 (talk)

@Homeostasis07, that book is published by McFarland, with whom WP has a partnership. (So you can apply for a copy rather than me applying for you.) I'd be interested in seeing the chapter myself, if you can get a copy. Let me know if, for whatever reason, this method falls through and I can get the chapter for you another way. czar 10:15, 27 September 2018 (UTC)

@Czar: I've applied for access to this source. I'll let you know when I receive it. Homeostasis07 (talk)

The epithet "Journalist Bob Mackey" cited to the article "Top 5 Worst Dressed Videogame Characters" feels like overreach. If this point is important, why does it need to be attributed to Mackey? Weird because on one hand, citing this opinion implies that it is important, but looking at who it cites (a redlink journalist of no listed publication), why would a reader discern that this opinion is important. Can it be phrased in a way that carries the same importance without making it seem like just one random writer's opinion? Maybe it can be amalgamated with another, similar thought.

I've removed Mackey's name, and replaced it with 1UP.com: the publication he was writing for (which has been included in other FA's). Homeostasis07 (talk)

"Producer Paul W. S. Anderson considered several ways to justify the usage of such a revealing costume, including having it described as an undercover outfit, while Milla Jovovich suggested using a heat wave as the reason." This reads like development, not reception

'Concept and design' is dedicated to the character's development within its original medium (gaming). But I've rearranged and rephrased this entire paragraph to lead to Anderson's point about that outfit's critical reception. Homeostasis07 (talk)

"extent to which Valentine's appearance had changed over the course of the game series has also received a mixed response" a single source citation for this summative statement? Also is this even a quality source and how is "a writer for GamesRadar said she had been redesigned so many times", writing about the game series, related to a paragraph about film?

I've rephrased the summative statement: "mixed response"→"been criticized", because GamesRadar is indeed a reliable source. What may have thrown you was the fact that the publication name was linked two paragraphs earlier. I can link the 2nd instance of the publication's name, if you want. And this paragraph jumps from negative film reception→negative game reception because this entire paragraph is dedicated to all mixed/negative reception, aside from the sexual commentary, which is incorporated elsewhere. This was one of the issues I was left to rectify on my own since the last peer review closed: how to disseminate what everyone wanted. As a compromise, I simply separated all non-sexual-related negative commentary to its own paragraph, in the hope that no-one would find that objectionable. Do you object to this? Homeostasis07 (talk)

re: concept & design section: my Mikami point from above still stands and sticks out

I have to politely disagree. I removed the outfit description entirely. What about that specifically do you object to? Homeostasis07 (talk)

It's a jarring time warp to go from 1996 to 2014 and back again (1998). It's relevant to mention the creator and what he was thinking when the character was created, but these views on objectification are not describing the 90s and they're not peppered by any other discussion of his thoughts at the time of creation. Better to add those 2014 details to a paragraph/area that discusses sexualization and her design, not jammed into that first paragraph. Also if presenting his 2014 views, the reader naturally asks what his views were in the 90s, because to anyone following along, they don't appear to be the same. If he evolved on this issue, would be helpful to add that to wherever his 2014 views are explicated. c

I've moved Mikami's quote to its more natural position, in 'Reception and legacy'. Homeostasis07 (talk)

as do the above points about "no character from Resident Evil 2 could be used for continuity reasons" and "meaning Valentine was the only suitable character remaining"

I've removed all of these details. Homeostasis07 (talk)

I'm not going to be able to go line by line here but I recommend reading these paragraphs out loud or to someone unfamiliar with the series and ask if they follow between the sentences. I'm familiar with the series and between sentences I'm still scratching my head about why certain points are made and others aren't connected.

czar 13:07, 23 September 2018 (UTC)

Cheers for the feedback, @Czar: I think I've done everything you've asked for above. Although I know there's still more work to do: some of the changes I've made could be refined, and it's introduced some inconsistencies. I'll be able to rectify all this tomorrow. And please disregard the final paragraph of 'Reception and legacy' for the time being. In my discussion with Bridies some time ago, they made some valid points about the Jill/Chris relationship, which I hope to incorporate there over the next few days. Homeostasis07 (talk) 23:50, 26 September 2018 (UTC)

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