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Talk:2019 Venezuelan blackouts

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In the newsA news item involving 2019 Venezuelan blackouts was featured on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the In the news section on 14 March 2019.
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  • "Misplaced Pages ya reseña el mega apagón en Venezuela". La Patilla. 14 March 2019. Retrieved 14 March 2019. Misplaced Pages reseña en inglés y en español el mega apagón que dejó a oscuras a toda Venezuela durante cinco días seguidos desde la tarde del jueves 7 de marzo, y que hoy al cumplirse 7 días afecta a varias ciudades, y ha dejado sin atención médica, sin alimentos y sin agua a millones de venezolanos.

Electricity blackout request

Content moved from Talk:2019 Venezuelan presidential crisis SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:20, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

I hope that we can all agree to wait a until the blackout is over to add the information in the article. It will give us more time for good sources to appear, to know more about its consequence, and most important of all, to known if it has political relevance for the article. A blackout due to faulty care of the electricity system does not mean it has a large relevance to the article, unless proven differently --MaoGo (talk) 13:13, 8 March 2019 (UTC).

This blackout was huge, it seems only four states out of 23 didn't suffer from it, but they aren't new in Venezuela. If I recall correctly, last year there was another one in more than half of the country and the electricity crisis started around 2009. I suggest this to be included in the Crisis in Venezuela article, along with the rest of the main blackouts. --Jamez42 (talk) 13:38, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
I think the Crisis article is the place. Electrical blackouts have become a feature of life in Venezuela and should have a section in that article. Then, if/when this record blackout becomes part of the Presidential crisis, we can link to that section there for background. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:11, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
By the way, no Venezuelan content at Apagón. (If I were a clever vandal, I would redirect that article to Juan Requesens, since the hearing will again be cancelled.) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:17, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
I am not saying it shouldn't be covered but just let us not make a long paragraph about it unless it has political consequences (like Guaidó showing photos of Maduro taking out the plug from the outlet or Marco Rubio throwing iguanas). --MaoGo (talk) 15:50, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
I agree ... but we can/should expand content at Crisis in Venezuela, or even Shortages in Venezuela, with an Electrical section. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:19, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
The Spanish article has its own article about the electricty crisis (Venezuelan electricity crisis), but it currently has a lot of issues, including being outdated. I'll leave it here if someone wants to take a look at it. --Jamez42 (talk) 17:21, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
Deputy and medic José Manuel Olivares reported that there have been 79 deaths attributed to the blackout so far. --Jamez42 (talk) 21:49, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

Ok time to update (I guess...). Let us keep it simple. There was a blackout of x number of hours, Maduro blamed the US, Guaido blamed Maduro, 79 deaths in hospitals anything else? Of course sources should back up. Option 2, wait until the second blackout/blackout-that-never-really-ended ends. --MaoGo (talk) 19:34, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

Not yet clear that it has ended :( In my opinion, the main impact on this article is the fury en la calle and how that plays out; because of the lack of communication, it could be a while before we have good reports. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:32, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
I agree. But if the blackout extends for 12 more hours, eventually we will have to update because the article is still in Misplaced Pages main news. Where should El Aissaimi sanctions go? --MaoGo (talk) 20:49, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
Hmmmm ... we don't really have a sanctions section, not sure if we should ??? Maybe in his article for now, and if we later decide we need a whole section, we can figure out where to put it? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:52, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

Update before Monday comes? Sadly, the number of information about Venezuela has lowered a lot since the blackout. Unfortunately, I won't be available until Tuesday. -MaoGo (talk) 21:15, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

We need a section in the Shortages in Venezuela article, and worse ... we need to beef up and deal with the whole background scandal. Work at Derwick Associates came go a grinding halt when it was discovered (by yours truly) that a paid editor was whitewashing it, and the whole energy problem goes back to the Derwick corruption. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:42, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

Update before Monday

@MaoGo:@SandyGeorgia: I'm sorry, I was expecting to publish this hours before. I will focus mainly in the effects of the blackout:

  • Cacerolazos reported throughout Caracas.
  • Flight from Bogotá returned because of blackout. International airlines are forced to start the flights without passengers, and passengers are stranded in Maiquetía's airport.
  • Caracas Metro and Valles del Tuy train suspended services.
  • Public transport, already affected by the lack of spare pieces, collapsed. Many people were seen walking long distances to go to work or get home.
  • Soccer match between Lara and Emelec of the Copa Libertadores was suspended.
  • Netblocks reports that the biggest Internet disruption of Latin America was registered and that 96% of communications are out. The blackout affects phone coverage as well.
  • Blackout made impossible the delivery of corpses in the Bello Monte morgue. The Caracas morgue is collapsed.
  • Since debit cards can't be used and there are shortages of cash bills in bolívares, many people are buying with dollars or euros.
  • Director of Codevida reports that 95% of the dialysis units are closed.
  • The blackout affected Roraima, in Brazil.
  • The Venezuelan diaspora loses contact with their relatives and friends.
  • In Maracaibo people sleeps in the streets because of the blackout (I didn't quite understand the wording of this event, further reading is needed)
  • Colectivos move around Caracas' main avenues with assault weapons.
  • Explosion in Sidor station in the Bolívar state
  • Radio Nacional Venezuela is off air after its fuel reserve runs out
  • Journalists of El Pitazo that covered progovernment marcha are robbed
  • CORPOLEC worker detained by the SEBIN is found dead.

Details on the deaths: (besides the ones specified above)

  • Deputy María Hernández: 15 children have died in Maturín (9 March)
  • José Manuel Olivares: Two deaths, one in the JM de los Ríos and another one in the Magallanes de Catia (9 March)
  • Premature baby dies in the Pérez Carreño Hospital  (9 March)
  • Two deaths in Maracaibo (9 March)
  • Daughter denounces that her mother died in the University Hospital (9 March)
  • El Nacional: Médicos Por La Salud confirmed 17 deaths (10 March)
  • 13 deaths confirmed in Maturín's hospital (10 March)
  • El Pitazo: Six deaths in Acarigua-Araure hospital (10 March)
  • Codevida: 15 deaths of dialysis patients (10 March)
  • Nohemí Oliveros is the fifth renal patient to die in the JM de los Ríos in 2019 (note that this includes 2019, it should be confimed if the death was because of the blackout) (10 March)

As a sidenote, policemen retired from yesterday's protest. A timeline on where the electricity has been restored and/or has been lost again should be included. ORC Consultores published a map regarding the status, but I can't find the link. --Jamez42 (talk) 00:42, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

@Jamez42: As I understand it, those policeman simply regrouped a few blocks later. I think the main thrust should be the long-standing corruption and other issues plaguing the electric industry (see below). Are you thinking of putting this content at Crisis in Venezuela or Shortages in Venezuela? My preference is a section on Electricity at the Shortages article, with the idea that it might eventually have its own article. The corruption and inefficiency that has plagued the electric industry since Chavez nationalized it deserves its own article-- even more so now it has turned even more deadly. I don't think we should treat that topic in the presidential crisis articles per se. The Derwick situation has been under discussion since, what, 2009? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:47, 11 March 2019 (UTC)
@SandyGeorgia: I understand the same, as well as that Guaido's scaffold was removed by the police and that there was repression. I would prefer to start a new article, and with almost five days now with a blackout I think there's enough material to create its own article. I'll make updates about 12 March: --Jamez42 (talk) 07:34, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
  • National Assembly approved state of alarm, suspending oil supply to Cuba
  • PDVSA suspends oil shippings due to the massive blackouts
  • Classes and work suspended until Thursday
  • Butcheries lower meat and poultry prices to prevent losses
  • Ice bags cost as high as 6$
  • Consecomercio registers ware losses due to lack of refrigeration. Fedecámaras warns that shortages will only worsen during the blackout.
  • Venezuelans' food rots. Fuel shortages.
  • Maracaibo church suspends eucharistics this Sunday
  • Alcasa is militarized and closed after remaining inoperative.
  • Efecto Cocuyo: Prisoners are left incommunicated, without food or water.
  • Caracas Metro and train remain inoperative
  • San Antonio de los Altos transformer explodes, cables fall on a ambulatory
  • Ecoanalítica estimates losses are as high as 875 million dollars
  • United Nations delegation starts working on Venezuela during blackout under strict security measures
  • National Guardsmen prevent food from being taken acrossed the border

Protests

  • Children in the J.M. de los Ríos shout "There is no food" from the windows of the hospital. The hospital doesn't have water nor electricity. I remember reading that one time colectivos also surrounded the building.
  • Colectivos and FAES official disperse protests with live ammunition
  • Colectivos fire against protesters in Zulia
  • El Paraíso residents protest
  • Sucre Avenue blocked by protesters
  • Protest in the Gran Mariscal de Ayacucho highway
  • Reporte Ya: R Repression in the Libertador avenue of Barquisimeto
  • Protests in Valles del Tuy
  • Protests in the Monagas state during rain
  • Journalist that reported repression in Carabobo state attacked by the National Guard
  • Protesters burn down National Police offices in Táchira state
  • Pedraza municipality town hall in Barinas is burned down

Lootings

  • Nationwide lootings
  • Attempt to loot shopping mall La Pirámide in Caracas
  • 50 arrests after looking of supermarket in the Baruta municipality
  • Supermarket in La Florida urbanization looted
  • Neighbors of San Martín, Caracas, tried to scare off looters
  • Lootings in the Zulia state. In Maracaibo, a bakery was looted downtown after throwing a tear has cannister. La Curva de Molina food business was looted as well
  • Some businesses looted in Barcelona on Saturday night
  • Denounces of lootings carried out by Zulia state policemen. --Jamez42 (talk) 13:30, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

Arrests and disappearances

  • SNTP: Journalist Luis Carlos Díaz is reported dissapeared
  • El Pitazo: Corpoelec worked reported dissapeared in Puerto Ordaz. Witnesses report he was intercepted and taken away in a gray van
  • Former mayor Lorenzo Rondón briefly detained
  • Foro Penal reports 22 arrests during blackout protests

Airlines

  • Air Europe crew is nearly robbed in Caracas. The airline decided that the crew would sleep in the Dominican Republic afterwards
  • El Estímulo: Iberia cancels flight to Caracas on Monday and Tuesday
  • Trinidad and Tobago airline suspends flights to Venezuela
  • Copa Airlines allowed only boarding of passengers with hand luggage due to the lack of X-rays
  • Maiquetía airport suffers from blackout, flights rescheduled
  • Migratory processes made manually

Water scarcity

  • People of Caracas wait in line to collect the water that flows down the Ávila
  • People of Caracas gather contaminated sewer water from the Guaire river and Los Caobos fountain
  • People gathers water from the Tuy rivers
  • Lines in Baruta and Los Teques to fill recipients with water
  • In Lara people takes baths in sewers due to the lack of water and electricity
  • Valencia has long lines of people for water and fuel

Details on deaths:

  • José Manuel Olivares confirms at least 24 deaths
  • El Nacional: Dismissed claim of 296 deaths in Maracaibo
  • Efecto Cocuyo: 86 years old man died from a skull fracture after falling in Lara during the blackout
  • Francisco Valencia (CODEVIDA) reports 17 deaths of patients that did not receive dialysis since the Wednesday
Important, article started in Spanish. News left to be included. --Jamez42 (talk) 19:22, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

Derwick Associates

Here's where it hits:

  • Derwick Associates
    • Nagel, Juan Cristóbal (1 April 2016). "In Venezuela, the Lights Are Going Out". Foreign Policy. Retrieved 10 March 2019. U.S. and Swiss authorities launched probes into Derwick Associates, a Venezuelan firm that builds power plants for the government. No criminal charges have yet been filed, but the firm is being investigated for laundering money and paying bribes to the state-owned oil giant, PDVSA, using international financial institutions. Venezuelan investigative journalists and bloggers have been on Dewick's case, finding more examples of bad behavior. They claim that its contracts were overpriced and awarded without public tender, and that the firm passed off used power plants as brand new. Derwick denies all these allegations, claiming that it is being subjected to a "witch hunt." Derwick is just one firm, but the saga appears to confirm that much of what ails Venezuela's electricity sector has to do with massive government corruption. It would be simplistic to say that corruption is the only problem, however. In addition to tackling corruption, sorting out this mess for good would involve undoing the country's disastrous energy policies — privatizing electricity generation and raising prices.
    • Dube, Ryan and Maolis Castro (8 March 2019). "Venezuela Blackout Plunges Millions Into Darkness; Maduro, without evidence, blames sabotage by local opponents and the U.S. for power outage". Wall Street Journal. Retrieved 10 March 2019. One company, Derwick Associates, formed by a number of well connected young businessmen with scant experience in the power business, received about $1.8 billion in contracts from Venezuelan state companies to buy and install turbines, paying a U.S. company about $1 billion to do the work. Derwick officials said they paid no bribes to any Venezuelan officials and the prices charged by the company reflected the high costs of doing business in Venezuela. {{cite news}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |1= (help)
    • http://www.el-nacional.com/noticias/mundo/mundo-espana-investigan-alejandro-betancourt_233653

SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:44, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

Separate page

Since this is possibly (even likely) not a direct part of the political situation, it's just had an affect, and is pretty serious, I feel it could warrant its own article, like March 2019 Venezuela blackout. We can discuss how this will tie-in to the other forms of internet censorship, etc, or if it doesn't. Kingsif (talk) 01:33, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

I am back. Yes this is the best way to go, let us make an article about the blackout. --MaoGo (talk) 10:39, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
Is anybody writing a draft? --MaoGo (talk) 12:15, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
@MaoGo: I'm planning to start one in the Spanish Misplaced Pages today. --Jamez42 (talk) 13:30, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
@Jamez42:Ok, I can help if you want, then we can carefully translate.--MaoGo (talk) 13:34, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

Now we have one: 2019 Venezuelan blackout. --MaoGo (talk) 12:52, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

This subsection:  Done --MaoGo (talk) 16:24, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

Source dump

Kingsif (talk) 15:26, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
I am moving to the article and converting to citation templates. As we write :) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:33, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
All now in External links; please name them when moving them in to content. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:50, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
I have moved most of the sources in, with named refs, but I have not expanded text per those sources-- they need to be mined for content. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:17, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

This could open a Causes section:

--MaoGo (talk) 16:06, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

@Kingsif:, please do not create citations that need to be cleaned up-- ADD DATES !!! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:16, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

I thought access date was preferred, for retrieving archive, which I included? And date mentioned in text? Kingsif (talk) 16:29, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
So here's my point: the article is new, why leave cleanup needs? Please add complete, correct, and consistent citations from the get-go. That means a) respecting the date system in use when the article was created, b) adding a publisher, date and author, as well as accessdate, and c) for gosh sake, name the refs for reuse without those miserable parentheses, colons and quote marks. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:38, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

Another decent source here:

Bump Las 120 horas que apagaron a Venezuela (Infografía) (Efecto Cocuyo). --Jamez42 (talk) 18:36, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
. --Jamez42 (talk) 21:52, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

Progress in article, translation

I started the lootings and the deaths section in Spanish. I also see that the Portuguese Misplaced Pages worked on a Causes and Reactions section. --Jamez42 (talk) 00:33, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

translated the Spanish Kingsif (talk) 03:15, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

Summary of points that are missing

Here is a list of mayor points that I think have yet to be developed:

I hope this helps.--MaoGo (talk) 14:30, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

Yes, this important info underdeveloped; meanwhile, excess detail in other areas. This is an encyclopedia, not a daily news report! We don't need street addresses for looting, and the name of every minor official in the country.

@MaoGo:, what do you think should be said about the presidential crisis in this article? I can work on that part, but am not sure what you are after ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:46, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

@SandyGeorgia: surely the problem is that the blackout has still not ended. We can wait, but it does not seem like there is going to be definite transition. Maybe just add some political implications like Guaidó investigation and plans to reopen the way for oil companies(?) . Again a line or two won't harm, but I have not been able to do it either, more suggestions are welcome. --MaoGo (talk) 14:51, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
We have that they are investigating Guaido, but the source above about PDVSA doesn't really go into the blackout; without getting synthy, I am not sure yet what else can be said. But something will come up for sure! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:55, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
@SandyGeorgia: You are right. My only concern is that the presidential crisis in the one been displayed in Misplaced Pages's mainpage and not the blackout. --MaoGo (talk) 15:03, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
For now, I think we have it covered. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:09, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

Merge needed

I hate sticking merge tags on articles-- wonder what others think before doing so. We have:

neither of which is ever likely to be developed. I suggest we can merge Zulia energy collapse into the broader Energy crisis in Venezuela. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:24, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

I am against merging this page. The sabotage is being investigated and more info will be available soon probably, it needs its own article. We have seen how the "humanitarian aid" trucks weren't burnt by Maduro but by the opposition (The New York Times), and how the 2018 August drone attack was a real assassination attempt (CNN). It won't take long to know who is involved this sabotage. emijrp (talk) 22:12, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
Did you read the post? It is not about "merging this page" at all; it is about the two other articles, one of which could be merged into the other. @Emijrp: please read. (Ignoring your strange conclusions about unrelated articles.) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:32, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
Then move this discussion to that pages. This is about 2019 Venezuelan power grid sabotage. emijrp (talk) 08:03, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

Forbes article

Could Venezuela's Power Outage Really Be A Cyber Attack? emijrp (talk) 22:03, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

First, Forbes is not always a reliable source; they use a paid-by-the-hit contributor model. Basically, they have become a font for paid opinion. Our own article on them explains this. Second, I gather from the revert by Jamez42 that your summary did not correctly reflect the article conclusions. Please do not use this source without gaining consensus. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:28, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
@SandyGeorgia: @Jamez42: If you both continue removing sourced statements, I will open an ANI and request a topic ban for you. emijrp (talk) 07:44, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
@Emijrp: WP:VNOTSUFF. Shouldn't you discuss the changes or offer rebuttals before threatening to ask for a block? --Jamez42 (talk) 07:56, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
I have done it before in several articles, and here, and your behaviour is removing the sourced content I add. emijrp (talk) 08:02, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
You're generalizing, and if I have removed content before I've done my best for it to be policy based, just like I'm doing currently. As it seems, I'm not the only editor that agrees with this. It's why I think it's easier to discuss such changes. --Jamez42 (talk) 08:08, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
If someone is up for a topic ban, it's you emijrp, you've been polluting articles of this crisis with tinfoil hats opinion pieces and straight fake news for far to long. --Oscar_. (talk) 11:56, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

Second arrest

@Burrobert:, I can't find any mention of an arrest other than the journalist Diaz. As far as I have been able to determine, only TASS is making this claim. Who is the second arrest? If there is no other source, I believe we should just remove this. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:27, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

Neutrality and factual accuracy

Hi, I made the following changes to the article which were reverted by @Kingsif:. Here's some more rationale for the changes.

  • "Maduro's government" --> "The Venezuelan government". Maduro is only the elected president of Venezuela, not the entire government.
  • "Experts and state-run Corpoelec (Corporación Eléctrica Nacional) sources attribute the blackout to lack of maintenance." --> "Opposition commenters attributed the blackout to lack of maintenance and governmental mismanagement." "Experts" is vague and biased. Looking at the sources cited seemed to be websites opposing the current Venezuelan government, so I changed it to that, however maybe there is a better way to describe the sources.
  • "administration of Nicolás Maduro" --> "Venezuelan government", see above.
  • "foreign US sabotage" --> "US sabotage", redundant warning.
  • "National Assembly-declared acting president Juan Guaidó" --> "National Assembly leader Juan Guaidó". The former, while technically correct, is cumbersome and somewhat confusing, given the ongoing political struggle in Venezuela. I think it's best to describe him by his undisputed position as leader of the National Assembly as the exact nature of his position is better covered elsewhere.
  • "experts cited" --> "sources cited", this is just puffery.

Please discuss. 2601:644:1:B7CB:C5AB:F0FE:DD1:A3F2 (talk) 22:30, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

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