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    Tagishsimon

    This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
    Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

    Request concerning Tagishsimon

    User who is submitting this request for enforcement
    Natureium (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 23:22, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    Tagishsimon (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

    Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

    Sanction or remedy to be enforced
    Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/GamerGate#Discretionary sanctions
    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
    1. Here is the first time I've ever interacted with them that I can recall, where I bring up a concern at ANI and they respond to rudely dismiss me outright.
    2. I'm not sure how to describe this insult.
    3. Here they respond to me saying that I've been going though and improving some of the articles started by Jess Wade by pointing out faults with an article I just created, which turn out to be incorrect.
    4. Here I asked Tagishsimon to stop harassing me.
    5. Here they refused.
    6. Here they allege that I'm in a club with two other people they've been harassing. example allegation here
      At this point, he was alerted about DS.
    7. Here, among other things, they say that it's my fault that Misplaced Pages is being dragged through the gutter as a hang-out for misogynists
    8. Here they say that their harassment is my fault
    9. Here they respond to me by telling me that I should go away and think about that.
    If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
    • Alerted about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months .
    Additional comments by editor filing complaint

    @Tagishsimon: I did not ask you to stop talking to me, I asked you to stop accusing me of things, which you have continued to do even here. Natureium (talk) 01:58, 5 May 2019 (UTC)

    He seems to have stopped momentarily only because he hasn't been on Misplaced Pages. His last edit, after all this started, was more of the same. Natureium (talk) 11:56, 6 May 2019 (UTC)
    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

    Notified. Is there no template for this?

    Discussion concerning Tagishsimon

    Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
    Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

    Statement by Tagishsimon

    I think it's fairly clear that Natureium does not like receiving criticism. --Tagishsimon (talk) 23:30, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

    Oh dear. You're determined to have drama. Well, let's go for it.
    There was, as you're aware, an ANI thread in which Netoholic was taken to task for targetting Jess Wade's work. https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#Netoholic's_response
    Natureium turned up to specify that, on the basis of nothing much, that all of Jess Wade's work should be subjected to close scrutiny. I objected to that, pointing out that Natureium had submitted no evidence to support their view, and asserting that exactly the logic they applied to Jess Wade could be applied to their own contributions.
    Natureium seems to have become upset about comments I made at https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Women_in_Red#Canvassing_allegations_for_Sarah_Tuttle in which I lump together the three editors who have taken it upone themselves to police Jess Wade's work.
    Natureium then turned up on my talk page; it seems clear they're happy that they can criticise people, but I cannot. Oh wells. https://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Tagishsimon#Simple_request
    And finally Natureium turned up ona thread I had started in WiR talk - https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Women_in_Red#Jess_Wade - and addressed themselves to me as the initial poster.
    None of this is me going out of my way to harrass Natureium. All of this is me reacting to Natureium's harrassment of Jess Wade.
    I don't accept Natureium's bogus framing, and neither should you. --Tagishsimon (talk) 00:53, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
    You need to be very clear, TonyBallioni, that I have not been targetting anyone. I responded to Natureium's ANI contribution; pointed out eslewhere that Natureium was one of three editors targetting Jess Wade; and responded to Natureium on my talk page and to their insertion in a thread I started, and more specifically responding to a post they made to me as thread starter.
    and what exactly are these "horrible things personally"? I pointed out in the ANi thread that Natureium had provided no evidence; I provided some stats on Jess Wade's work, and I pointed out that an analysis of Natureium's work might yield the same conclusion about their work as they had reached about Jess Wade's work.
    @TonyBallioni: May I insist, since you have raised it, that you produce diffs for the alleged "horrible things personally". --Tagishsimon (talk) 01:01, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
    I have contempt for Natureium's framing of the issue. I have only sympathy for anyone who has to wade through this. It appears that Natureium feels it is fine to wander around denigrating Jess Wade's work & calling her a liar, but wants an admini-drama when on the receiving end of rebuttal criticism. --Tagishsimon (talk) 01:11, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
    If you do not think accusing Jess Wade of lying is deplorable, then your milage varies from mine. --Tagishsimon (talk) 01:27, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
    That's weak on both counts, TonyBallioni. Please supply a diff for the alleged "horrible things personally", or withdraw the allegation. And, as I say, I have contempt for Natureium's framing of this matter. I don't find this a good faith report of harrassment. --Tagishsimon (talk) 01:32, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
    And with the best will in the world, one cannot accept a person saying "please stop" on page A 18:51, and then addressing comments to me on page B 18:56 "Did you not notice that that's untrue before reposting it here?". This is what I mean by having contempt for the framing. Natureium feign's a wish to stop the discussion, five minutes before wandering along to accuse Jess of lying, and me of being credulous for reporting on Jess's lie. And you can see none of this? --Tagishsimon (talk) 01:38, 5 May 2019 (UTC)

    Statement by TonyBallioni

    El C, I think the issue is that Tagishsimon has been specifically targeting Natureium with personal attack based on their involvement in a gender related controversy where there are very strong opinions on both sides. The ANI isn't directly related to that, but was originally about Netoholic and Jess Wade. Natureium reviewed that thread and had some concerns, and when they expressed the concerns, Tagishsimon lumped them together with two other editors and started accusing them of horrible things personally. This kind of behaviour creates a chilling effect: it makes it seem so that any editor in a topic area who interacts with a high profile editor who has been covered by the media cannot review their content work. That is unacceptable.

    On the broader ANI question, the failure of the original ANI thread (about a different, but related issue) in my view actually shows why AE is a better venue: this is a politically fraught topic area with editors having strong opinions on both sides, and all parties having allies. It is the type of situation that ANI is not designed to handle, but AE is. I would also add that if the original ANI thread were made here instead of at ANI, we likely could have avoided some of the drama of the last few days.

    I'd urge other admins to take this complaint seriously: a good faith editor who is questioning content of a high profile editor in a politically charged topic area is being subjected to personal attacks on multiple pages, and when they ask the person to stop, all they get are more personal attacks. This should not be tolerated. TonyBallioni (talk) 23:45, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

    Since I’ve been asked, I find this statement to be particularly inappropriate, but I agree with Natureium’s analysis of all the diffs they have presented and find your response to El C in the results section really disturbing. You’re personalizing a content dispute and admit to having contempt for the fact that Natureium even bothered to request someone look at this as harassment particularly disturbing. Good faith allegations of harassment should be taken seriously, not treated with contempt. TonyBallioni (talk) 01:28, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
    I believe all of the diffs presented by Natureium speak for themselves and my comment was my analysis of them, which I believe to be fair. I will not be striking my statement. TonyBallioni (talk) 02:05, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
    Sandstein, the policy is WP:HARASSMENT. Specifically repeated annoying and unwanted contact or attention, and repeated personal attacks may reduce an editor's enjoyment of Misplaced Pages and thus cause disruption to the project. They were asked to stop making aspersions and accusations, they said they wouldn’t, they were given a DS alert after this, and they continued and continue to paint one person as the reason for Misplaced Pages being perceived as misogynistic and as creating a toxic culture, and even accusing them of making this report in bad faith. AC/DS gives admins the clear authorization to issue interaction bans, and that is at a minimum what is called for here. Natureium should not have to tolerate this simply because they did not cite a policy. TonyBallioni (talk) 17:58, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
    Jayron32, (I cut this for size and because there is a clearer explanation) ArbCom has clarified that the GamerGate sanctions these discretionary sanctions apply to any discussion regarding systemic bias faced by female editors or article subjects on Misplaced Pages, including any discussion involving the Gender Gap Task Force. Any sanctions imposed should be logged at the GamerGate case, not this one. Saying that other editors contribute to the perception that Misplaced Pages is a misogynists paradise pretty squarely falls within the recent clarification in my view. TonyBallioni (talk) 02:59, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
    Jayron32, since this has died down and there doesn’t appear to be opposition to your warning, I think now would be a good time to close it as a warning logged at WP:AELOG/2019 so there’s a record of it if the issues go on (which hopefully they want afterwards). TonyBallioni (talk) 22:59, 14 May 2019 (UTC)

    Statement by Lepricavark

    It might also be useful to note this comment, in which Tagishsimon claims to be extending good faith to Netoholic while simultaneously arguing that his behavior is pretty much indistinguishable from misogynistic trolling. It seems to be a way of making a personal attack while also trying to maintain plausible deniability that no such attack was made. With no further context, this comment might simply be dismissed as poorly-phrased yet well-intended. But Tagishsimon's aggressive battleground responses to Natureium make it much harder to see it that way. I will also add that I found the attacks on Natureium to be unwarranted and frankly bizarre. Lepricavark (talk) 02:39, 5 May 2019 (UTC)

    Statement by DoubleCross

    I came across this because I browse AE from time to time - I figure I should clarify that I have no idea who Natureium and Tagishsimon are, and (as far as I know) have never interacted with either.

    From what I've read in the provided diffs, and per Lepricavark, this is a good-faith request from Natureium, and Tagishsimon's posts toward Natureim are extremely aggressive and personal attacks. Referencing WP:AGF and WP:NPA while simultaneously saying Natureium's "creating a toxic environment" and calling his edits "indistinguishable from misogynistic trolling" and "toxicity" - farcical beyond words. DoubleCross (talk) 07:23, 5 May 2019 (UTC)

    Statement by slatersteven

    And it continues here ], they clearly do not get it (whilst accusing others of doing it). Yes this is creating a very toxic environment, but not in the way they mean.Slatersteven (talk) 12:19, 5 May 2019 (UTC)

    Statement by Sitush

    Something has gone wrong with Natureium's diffs. #7, which says it refers to WP being dragged through the gutter, is actually this diff. I've not checked all of the others but have been involved in this farrago and there is little doubt in my mind that the words of Tagishsimon (and at least one other person) have a chilling effect on discussion. - Sitush (talk) 06:41, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

    Statement by Clayoquot

    I share TonyBallioni's concerns about a chilling effect. Cross-checking by peers is fundamental to Misplaced Pages, especially after serious factual errors were found in an editor's past contributions as is the case here. The key is that cross-checking needs to be done with competence and sensitivity, and I haven't seen any evidence that Natureium's actions have been lacking in these respects.

    In the past week, social media has come up with some interesting rumors about what's happening at Misplaced Pages, e.g. I heard someone say on Facebook that someone had nominated for deletion recently-created articles on "every woman scientist". My reading of some recent on-wiki discussions is that outrage fomented at Twitter, based on inaccurate and misleading stories, has surged back over here and is creating an environment in which Misplaced Pages is not a safe space to work. I would hope that something is done about that. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 22:52, 8 May 2019 (UTC)

    Statement by Masem

    (involved obv. due to GG case). I have to agree with the point made by Clayoquot. There was a series of AFDs that were all female academics by one user (Netoholic) but all those were created by a different user in a type of "Women in Red" approach. From what has happened since with Netoholic, its pretty clear Netoholic did not target those article due to any type of misogyny, but a lot of editors jumped on this to cry out about gender-related AFD issues. (Which is a valid concern... just not in this case, or at least specificly to Netoholic). Statements like those highlighted by Tagishsimon do not help this situation, and because off-wiki observers do not recognize all the steps we use for such discussions, the cry of "WP hates women academics" is being amplified. (We already saw this with the GG case itself eg ). Editors have to be aware of the type of claims they are making and how that reflects on WP as a whole particularly when the case has grabbed attention in news and social media. I definitely feel Tagishsimon's statements "assume the worse" in terms of how WP was handling the situation, which is simply not helpful and leads to slippery slopes and increased battleground behavior. --Masem (t) 23:32, 8 May 2019 (UTC)

    Result concerning Tagishsimon

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
    • I thought this was being discussed at AN/I. Do we need to have it addressed at two admin noticeboards at the same time? (Not to mention the Rama RfAR.) El_C 23:34, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
    • Tony, I can appreciate that, on pragmatic grounds alone, AE may be more suited to this than the current AN/I. I suppose I was just concerned with discussions being superfluously duplicated. On closer examination, sanctions may, indeed, be due in this case. I confess to not being too impressed with Tagishsimon extremely terse reply. It seems to be deflective and exhibits contempt for the process. El_C 23:59, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
    • Tagishsimon, melodrama is exactly what we're trying to avoid here at AE. I, for one, do not think calling someone's behaviour "deplorable" is especially civil. If that's characteristic of your manner of discourse with Natureium, then we have a problem. El_C 01:23, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
    • Tagishsimon, I'm not seeing Natureium accusing her of lying—always an act of bad faith. A claim can be invented accidentally, in good faith. El_C 01:38, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
    • I don't think you can reasonably cite NPA and at the same breath say that someone's behaviour is "indistinguishable from misogynistic trolling" — that doesn't work for me. I, however, suppose I could support a warning, but only if lessons are shown to have been drawn here. El_C 23:25, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
    • Jayron32, because the GG/DS pertains to "any gender-related dispute or controversy," which this is. So either venue seem applicable. El_C 23:54, 8 May 2019 (UTC)
    • The subject is claiming "that Natureium was one of three editors targetting Jess Wade" — and that whole saga has GG all over it. I have also raised concerns with it being brought here (see my first comment), but I've since come to see that this venue is fine, too. El_C 00:19, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
    • I would take no action because the complaint does not make clear which conduct policies, if any, the diffs at issue are supposed to violate. And it's not readily apparent, at least in the post-notification diffs, what the grounds for action might be. Sandstein 17:54, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
      • @Sandstein: WP:HARASSMENT ? Nick (talk) 18:03, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
        • I agree that these comments are impolite and that Tagishsimon should attempt to personalize disputes less. I wouldn't oppose a warning for that, but I don't think this reaches the point where sanctions are required. Three edits (after the AE notification) in the course of one discussion thread do not amount to "a pattern of repeated offensive behavior", as we describe harassment. Sandstein 20:30, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
    • I have some questions about the venue for this sanction request: Why is this at AE rather than ANI? This looks like garden variety WP:CIV and WP:NPA type complaints, not obviously specific to WP:ARBGG editing. I'm not saying one way or the other whether or not the behavior is sanctionable or not, but I do have questions about why this venue is being used to request sanctions rather than the normal, wider, community-based methods such as an open ANI discussion? --Jayron32 23:47, 8 May 2019 (UTC)
      El_C: How so? I don't see any tendentious editing or the like at articles or talk pages regarding gender-related controversies. I see some garden-variety rudeness and insult and assumptions of bad faith, but these don't appear (at my looking at the diffs) to be related to articles around gender-related controversies. Can you clarify for me how this is related to that? Again, I'm not excusing behavior here, but I am questioning why we're using a process for dealing with dispute-related behavior when this just appears to be garden-variety NPA type stuff. --Jayron32 00:01, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
      Fair enough. I was unable to read the background from what I was seeing, and thanks to everyone who explained their position. My only concern is that we don't over apply the "gender-related dispute" thing to mean that every dispute between people different genders automatically becomes an AE-level sanction, or that any time a gender-related personal attack is leveled, it comes here first. Most of that stuff should still be handled at ANI, and we really should be saving AE for disputes where gender issues are part of the content dispute rather than simply part of basic civility issues. I understand though how this specific one is related. In the future, it would help if the initial complaint laid that out rather than just asserting it to be so. These things are not always self-evident, and uninvolved admins such as myself who don't know the background find it hard to assess a dispute when there is no context provided. Again, thanks to everyone who helped explain it to me. I'll have to take some time to think on this. --Jayron32 03:00, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
      This seems to have died down; reviewing the diffs and contributions from both editors, and based in part on the comments of most admins here, it seems there is a rough consensus for formal warnings. Would anyone object to closing this as follows: "a formal warning is issued to both parties Tagishsimon to avoid casting aspersions, to remain civil, and to avoid personal attacks in heated discussions" --Jayron32 12:02, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
      Yes. Natureium has not engaged in personal attacks or incivility. Tagishsimon has, and is the only participant who needs reminded/sanctioned. Nick (talk) 15:16, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
      So corrected. Please reasses my proposal now that I have corrected my mistake. --Jayron32 15:23, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
      Yes, now ideal. I was notified yesterday of further issues with Jess Wade's work which reinforces my belief that Natureium was engaged in nothing more than the discussion of legitimate concerns surrounding BLPs. Nick (talk) 08:27, 12 May 2019 (UTC)
    • The battleground behaviour on display in this discussion definitely needs to stop, but I'm unsure what the best remedy is. An IBAN between Tagishsimon and Natureium would address some of it, but I'm concerned that the disruption is wider than that; nonetheless, I think this would be a good first step. GoldenRing (talk) 12:27, 9 May 2019 (UTC)

    Sir Joseph

    Sir Joseph is banned from all pages and edits related to the Arab-Israeli conflict, broadly construed, for three months. El_C 08:04, 14 May 2019 (UTC)
    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

    This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
    Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

    Request concerning Sir Joseph

    User who is submitting this request for enforcement
    Bradv (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 01:51, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    Sir Joseph (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

    Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

    Sanction or remedy to be enforced
    Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles :
    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
    1. 22:10, May 9, 2019 A shocking display of ignorance toward Palestinian people.
    2. 20:30, May 9, 2019 The above is apparently in response to a question about this edit.
    Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
    1. 23 February 2019 Most recent AE action
    2. Block log
    If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
    • Previously blocked as a discretionary sanction for conduct in the area of conflict, see the block log linked to above.
    • Alerted about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, see the system log linked to above.
    • Participated in an arbitration request or enforcement procedure about the area of conflict in the last twelve months.
    Additional comments by editor filing complaint

    I am not involved in this dispute – I'm just raising these comments here for review. Saying that Palestinians would "rather continue killing people" is at best an ignorant oversimplification, and at worst blatant racism.

    Just to be clear, I did not report the edit warring on the talk page as there is no page-level restriction on the talk page. Nevertheless, the Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions#Guidance for editors covers the kind of behaviour I reported above, which still warrants a response. – bradv🍁 03:04, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

    Sir Joseph


    Discussion concerning Sir Joseph

    Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
    Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

    Statement by Sir Joseph

    Not sure why someone not involved is coming in and starting something that is already resolved, and in the case of the second diff, already hatted and commented on as a miscommunication. I obviously didn't mean that O300 is funding terror, but rather BDS. On my talk page, I clearly respond to O300 and clarify that to him and the filer should have seen that before filing this report so the fact that he is trying to obfuscate this from the admins or trying to pass it off as something else is wrong and should be boomeranged. diff

    As to the first diff, yes, I believe that the Palestinians, as in the government, the PA, Hamas, the WB, Gaza, as a whole, not individually and not as a race, so not sure where racism comes into it, is not interested in peace, they had many opportunities for peace but choose instead to launch rockets, take US, EU and UN funds and build tunnels. I will not apologize for that, as Golda Meir famously said, "Peace will come to the Middle East when the Arabs love their children more than they hate us." I find this AE action vexatious and just trying to stir things up. Sir Joseph 01:59, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

    And since Nableezy mentioned BLP, there is no BLP violation, I brought sources to my edits. I added them to the hatted section as well. You can take a look where Barghouti is quoted as saying it is OK to kill Israeli settlers. Sir Joseph 02:10, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
    @El C:I don't want to wikilawyer, but I am a little confused. The notice on the talk page, says article. And I always assumed talk pages are different. Also, the arbitration ruling says page, but says can only be enforced with an edit notice, which the talk page doesn't have. In any event, I did not know a talk page doesn't have 1RR, and it should be clarified since the ARBPIA notice on the talk page is not clear. (I also did not know who the IP was, I just knew he was an IP that was reverted, as is usual in the IP conflict area.) Also with regards to the BLP, regardless of what you think of Canary Mission, they link to their sources, and there is the Algemeiner Journal, and the Forward, and again Barghouti's forward of a book and his own statement that it's ok to kill settlers. To me that's a lot of leeway in saying he supports terrorism, especially on a talk page. Sir Joseph 02:26, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
    @El C:I'd say no, because the editnotice has to be visible when you edit the page, incidentally, the whole area is a fustercluck as my local rep would say, almost 90% of the pages in the area don't have the required editnotice on the article page. And bringing this to Arbcom would most likely screw it up even more since that is what usually happens. Sir Joseph 02:41, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
    @Drmies:as I told El_C, I didn't know that. And also, the filer didn't mention 1RR, so I also think this is out of scope. In addition, yes, even if I knew 100% that 1RR did apply to the talk page, then it's not actionable because it clearly says that it requires an edit notice on each page. Sir Joseph 02:47, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
    @Drmies:I'm sorry you feel that way. I didn't do anything wrong. I don't know why every interaction with you seems to be negative and that you have it in for me. There is no technicality, I'm just mentioning other reasons why there is no actionable event on this AE action. You can pick from several if you want. That is on top of the obvious that I did nothing wrong. Some people like technicalities and some people like real reasons. It's your call. Sir Joseph 02:53, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
    @El C: I never said he's involved or insinuated it, just that whenever we communicate, and it's usually on an admin board it's always negative. In this case, I mentioned it because of his, "dot dot dot". Sir Joseph 03:13, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
    @BU Rob13: just to clarify, my talk page is not under discretionary sanctions. Further, talk page is not the same as mainspace editing and I don't think anyone here will say they are not biased in one way.Sir Joseph 04:47, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
    @BU Rob13: I keep finding issues with arbcom rulings. Firstly, I'm not sure how my page is broadly construed as being part of the conflict. Also, as per DS, I was never warned, so you can't issue discretionary sanctions without an initial warning. Regardless, as was pointed out, I was responding to Huldra. Sir Joseph 05:31, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

    Please let me know how my talk page is under DS and also please show me where I was warned for the supposed DS violation. In addition, please tell me how to respond to someone who just said it's ok to kill civilians. Sir Joseph 11:51, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

    Statement by Nableezy

    More concerning than the soapboxing is the edit-warring to restore a BLP violation made by an IP sock of a blocked editor. 1st revert, 2nd revert, and 3rd revert. If I am not mistaken, that is a violation of the 1RR for ARBPIA and a violation of WP:BLPREQUESTRESTORE. nableezy - 02:03, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

    As far as "sources", Sir Joseph brought this Israeli government publication that does not anywhere say Barghouti supports terrorism. Following that he posted this link which I cant see where it says anything about Barghouti supporting terrorism, and then this YouTube link that fails to load and then Canary Mission, a website that has been described as a McCarthyite blacklist that engages in slander. Sir Joseph edit warred to maintain a BLP violation, violating both WP:BLP and the 1 revert rule. nableezy - 02:20, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

    @BU Rob13: remember this? Case in point. Do we need to get the edit-notice added to talk pages of articles that already have an edit-notice too? nableezy - 02:52, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

    Well I personally disagree with the thinking that having a belief, any belief really, makes one incompatible with editing in the topic area. I hold plenty of beliefs that many people may find objectionable. What matters here though is do my edits betray such beliefs, do they push POVs at odds with the balance of reliable sources. Sir Joseph can believe the Palestinians are whatever he thinks they are. He shouldnt make those feelings known on talk pages obviously. I still think the most serious thing here is edit-warring to maintain a BLP violation. And given the previous blocks for gaming on this board (example) I think the game playing about its not enforceable because it doesnt have an edit-notice, for an editor obviously aware, is evidence of why the new requirement was, while well intended, misguided. Whats important is that people know about the 1RR and that it is in place for a given article. This talk page has an ARBPIA template. Are we really pretending that people dont think Talk:Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions is covered by ARBPIA? Do we really think that calling Omar Barghouti a supporter of terrorism is not a BLP violation? Or that it is not covered by ARBPIA? Extended-confirmed protection and the 1RR have done wonders for this topic area. Yes, I realize given its current state that this is not saying much, but lest we forget there was an arbitration case in this topic area that had 2 socks of one banned editor in it (ARBPIA2 and NoCal100 with Canadian Monkey, socks of Isarig). The new requirement is allowing editors who know what is covered to play these games. That he edit-warred to restore a BLP violation for an edit he knew was covered by the sanctions and is arguing that because the frickin talk page doesnt have the edit-notice that it cant be enforced is the problem here. That he said something that I personally find disgusting makes it just another day on the internet really. nableezy - 05:04, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

    You all are taking this too far. Huldra said armed settlers, and yes she should not have said that just based of the soapboxing rules, and yes when they are not actively engaged in military action they are civilians and yes under the laws of war they may not be attacked and they are not valid targets, lets get all that out of the way. That entire discussion from start to end had things that violate WP:SOAPBOXING. But you ban her for stating an opinion, even if you disagree with it, or Sir Joseph for doing the same, you are going to hurt the encyclopedia. Yall ignore the only thing that really merits anything besides a stern warning to avoid stating personal opinions on Misplaced Pages in any context and jump on views on either side that you dont like. You are going to hurt the encyclopedia. nableezy - 08:46, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

    Statement by Icewhiz

    Sir Joseph was asked a political question on his own talk page (the context being diff (in the question) - whether Israeli civilians in the West Bank are a "legitimate target" per Huldra). I'l also note that Huldra - diff - !voted "Oppose, resisting occupation is legitimate" recently (in the context of whether attacks on Israelis in the West Bank should be included in the article).

    Use of the "the Palestinians" as a contraction for a long list of Palestinian political and militant organizations (e.g. Category:Palestinian militant groups (which is not up to date on all the small factions in current Gaza): Abdullah Azzam Brigades, Abu Ali, Mustapha Brigades, Abu Nidal Organization, Al-Nasser Salah al-Deen Brigades, Alliance of Palestinian Forces, Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, Arab Liberation Front, Army of Islam (Gaza Strip), As-Sa'iqa, Black September Organization, Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine, Fatah, Fatah al-Intifada ,Fatah al-Islam, Fatah Hawks, Force 14, Free Palestine Movement, Hamas, Holy Jihad Brigades, Islamic Jihad Movement in Palestine, Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades, Jaljalat, Jund Ansar Allah, Liwa al-Quds, Mujahideen Shura Council in the Environs of Jerusalem, Al-Najjada, Palestine Liberation Army, Palestinian Freedom Movement, Palestinian Liberation Front, Palestinian Liberation Front (Abu Nidal Ashqar wing), Palestinian National and Islamic Forces, Palestinian Popular Struggle Front, Palestinian Popular Struggle Front (1991), Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine – General Command, Popular Resistance Committees, Al-Quds Brigades, Galilee Forces, Sabireen Movement, Swords of Truth, Tanzim, Tawhid al-Jihad (Gaza Strip)) is common in everyday speech. Sir Joseph is far from making a novel claim on his talk page - e.g. this recent op-ed in The Philadelphia Inquirer: ". The peace process has been frozen for years and the Israeli public soured on it after Palestinian terrorist attacks in the 2000s and the Hamas takeover of Gaza." Icewhiz (talk) 05:13, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

    Statement by (username)

    Result concerning Sir Joseph

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
    • Sir Joseph, ARBPIA says: Each editor is limited to one revert per page per 24 hours on any page that could be reasonably construed as being related to the Arab-Israeli conflict — that means also talk pages. Which is to say, it's not by accident that the Committee didn't write articles instead of page. And it doesn't help that in that instance you're reverting the edits of a user who states I warned you admins that I will edit as I see fit when I was blocked against the rules. El_C 02:18, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
    • Sir Joseph, you could be right. Template:ArbCom Arab-Israeli editnotice/doc does say: the visibility of this template is a prerequisite to sanctioning an editor for violation of the 1RR restriction. But if there is an editnotice on the article, does that not mean that 1RR on its talk page automatically becomes applicable? I suspect that yes, but I'm not sure. Perhaps that is something the Committee could clear up. (Or has already cleared up and I just missed it.) El_C 02:37, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
    • Sir Joseph, I'm sure Drmies would have recused himself from the uninvolved admin section if he wasn't uninvolved. El_C 03:08, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
    • Yes, Sir Joseph, that's the kind of technicality that makes all this so tedious. You may well get off on a technicality, but that comes at a cost. Drmies (talk) 02:50, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
    • I don't know why anyone is focusing on 1RR and talking about getting off on technicalities here. An editor has said one side of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict is interested only in killing the other side. Whatever their motivations for saying that, this is incompatible with editing in this topic area. At best, it is exactly the type of thing that will prompt disruption and make consensus-building regarding article content harder. At worst, it reveals a severe bias against one side of the issue that makes it impossible for the editor to edit neutrally in this area. Either way, allowing the editor to continue editing this topic area at this time is a net negative. This is a topic area under discretionary sanctions, and so any administrator can implement a topic ban if they feel one is warranted. I do feel one is warranted, so I support a three-month topic ban. ~ Rob13 04:40, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
      • @Sir Joseph: It is, actually, broadly construed, if you are editing about the topic area on that page. ~ Rob13 05:20, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
        • @BU Rob13: I'd support a three month TBAN for Sir Joseph. However, in the same discussion we have Huldra advocating violence against civilians (diff, diff). IMO this merits an indef ban from ARBPIA; I'm frankly considering taking it to AN to argue for a site ban. GoldenRing (talk) 07:51, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
          • Yes, let's action this under regular DS. I'm not in favor of time-limited topic bans, however, and would prefer an indef ban with appeal allowed after 3 months. Since Huldra isn't a participant here, I think that matter should be dealt with outside this thread, after they are notified and given an opportunity to respond. T. Canens (talk) 08:17, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
    • @Sir Joseph: Your edits are clearly within the ARBPIA topic. You can try to wikilawyer this if you like, and it will end just as badly as it did last time. Since you yourself have brought a request here under ARBPIA DS and also had a DS notification in July last year, you clearly meet the requirements of WP:AC/DS#aware.aware. Accordingly, I am imposing a three month topic ban from ARBPIA topics. I recognise some are arguing for an indefinite ban appealable after three months and that I am going against that opinion; I am doing so because (a) some of the opposition is to time-limited bans in general, but they are clearly a sanction open to us; (b) although it doesn't excuse the conduct, they were clearly responding to fairly egregious behaviour themselves; and (c) in cases where intend an editor take a relatively short break from a topic, I think it's better for the ban to expire automatically than to require an appeal, as an appeal only means that their re-entrance to the topic is immediately preceded by controversy and bad blood. I will open a separate request regarding Huldra shortly. GoldenRing (talk) 12:32, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

    Huldra

    Huldra is topic-banned for three months from everything related to the Arab-Israeli conflict. Sandstein 16:46, 15 May 2019 (UTC)
    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

    This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
    Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

    Request concerning Huldra

    User who is submitting this request for enforcement
    Levivich (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 08:28, 12 May 2019 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    Huldra (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

    Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

    Sanction or remedy to be enforced
    Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles:
    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
    1. 23 Apr (1) Well then, I ask those genius admins who have put this in place to ASAP place edit notices on each and every article ...
    2. 23 Apr (2) And as for you having a 'good conscience', yeah, well, that does not convince me. When I was younger, I read a lot about the Holocaust. The one thing that terrified me about the Holocaust more than anything was this: some of perpetrators had a 'good conscience'...(basically saying that the people they killed were "lesser human beings" who would have died out, anyway, so they were just "helping nature", or speeding up the process a little..) So no; since then I have taken having a "good conscience" as not being a good excuse of anything.
    3. 4 May My point is that if you have no better source than those who depopulated (or "ethically cleansed") the Palestinian villages, then you might cut it out completely.
    4. 5 May Heh, I see all the "usual suspects" are here, with 100% predictable opinions.
    5. 7 May Oppose, resisting occupation is legitimate.
    6. 9 May (1) Any people has the right to oppose occupation. (Btw, by your standard, my beloved late father was a terrorist, from 1940 to 45 (the authorities that ruled our land in that period thought so too)).
    7. 9 May (2) And shouldn't armed settlers be legitimate targets? (original)
    8. 10 May (1) I am advocating my right (and anyones elses right) to oppose any illegal occupation.
    9. 10 May (2) I was arguing about occupation, and resisting occupation.
    10. 10 May (3) To repeat: what I wrote was in connection with an illegal occupation. I fully support my father taking up arms in 1940, and if any such situation arose again, I would do the same. And again, international law support this point of view.
    Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
    If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

    17 Apr 2019: User talk:Huldra#DS Alert

    Additional comments by editor filing complaint

    Asking admin to review these diffs and take any appropriate action. Thank you. Leviv ich 08:28, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

    @Sandstein: Apologies for the malformed request. At the recent AN thread, Jayron32, the closer, wrote: On the issue of Huldra's general behavior in the area of contention, many editors above agreed that Huldra behaved poorly, and may require sanction. If you think Huldra should be sanctioned, start a new thread and lay out your diffs. Others have made similar comments. I think these diffs violate the remedies, specifically the part of #Editors reminded that says  ...all the more important to comply with Misplaced Pages policies ... and the part of #Editors counseled that says For example, an editor whose ethnicity, cultural heritage, or personal interests relate to Side X ... as follows:

    Diff 1 ("genius admins") and Diff 4 ("'usual suspects' ...with 100% predictable opinions") sarcastically insult the intelligence of admins and the opinions of editors. WP:CIVIL, WP:BATTLEGROUND, WP:Casting aspersions.

    Diff 2 says "you having a 'good conscience', yeah, well, that does not convince me" because some Nazis ("perpetrators of the Holocaust") also "had a 'good conscience'". This is Godwin's law, comparing an editor's "good conscience" to that of Nazis. Diff 6 is the same thing: saying that "your standard" is the same standard as "the authorities that ruled our land" in 1940–45, which is comparing an editor's "standard" to the standard of Nazis (or perhaps some other WWII fascist occupiers). WP:AGF, WP:NOTAFORUM, CIVIL, BATTLEGROUND.

    Diff 3 ("ethically cleansed") accuses a living person of ethnic cleansing ("ethically" obviously a reference to "ethnically"). WP:BLP, NOTAFORUM, CIVIL, etc.

    Diff 5 is an !oppose with the rationale that "resisting occupation is legitimate" in response to an RfC asking whether the West Bank occupation article should include Palestinian violence against settlers. One editor replied saying the vote should be discounted because it violates NOTAFORUM. I agree, and I also think this statement comes very close to saying that Palestinian violence against settlers is legitimate.

    Diff 7 ("shouldn't armed settlers be legitimate targets"), I won't go as far as to say it advocates violence against civilians, but it's soapboxing, and again the suggestion that violence against settlers is OK (because they're "armed", though the original diff, calling them "settler thieves", was a Freudian slip). Diffs 8–10 are Huldra's own words explaining Diff 7, that this was "advocating my right", "arguing about occupation, and resisting occupation", and what Huldra personally would do if she were ever under occupation. Huldra should not be advocating her political rights, or arguing about the legality of resistance to occupation, or advocating anything concerning politics, on article talk pages. NOTAFORUM, and also I do not see how one can edit articles about a political conflict in compliance with WP:NPOV while openly advocating for one side of that conflict on talk pages. Leviv ich 16:05, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

    Diff

    Discussion concerning Huldra

    Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
    Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

    Statement by Huldra

    I am not sure how to answer this, as I am not sure what I am accused of. But firstly: all of the above diffs are from talk pages, or WP:RS/N ..none of those 10 diffs are edits of articles (and more than 75% of my total edits are to articles). Also, WP:NOTAFORUM clearly makes an exception of user talk pages (“You can chat with people about Misplaced Pages-related topics on their user talk pages, and should resolve problems with articles on the relevant talk pages, but please do not take discussion into articles.”) And the expression "usual suspects" come from this movie, Casablanca, it is taken to mean the editors who regularly edit IP area, and who regularly meet each other at WP:AE, or WP:AN or WP:AN/I. As for noting 100% predictable opinions; that is not very original, I think it was Kingsindian who first said it years ago (at ARCA, I believe), that he could with 100% certainty predict how editors would vote in the IP area, only by seeing their names.

    As for using depopulated (or "ethically cleansed") (You are correct, it should be “ethnically”): The Palestinian side normally say “ethnically cleansed”, the Israeli side normally say ”abandoned “ about the villages empty since 1948. As a compromise, we have come to using “depopulated” in all the 1948 village articles: that is a word none of us like every much, but all of us can live with. However, if I am to be punished for using “ethnically cleansed” on a talk page, shouldn’t we also punish editors who use the word “abandoned” on a talk page? There are plenty of examples of that, start with Talk:Lifta. (PS: I have never asked any of those editors who used “abandoned” there to be punished)

    As for the recent AN, (and my talk page): I had never in my wildest imagination thought that my words could be taken to mean what they did, but that is obviously my fault. Mea culpa. It is my job to make my opinions clear, and not open to misunderstanding.

    As for WP:NOTAFORUM: yes, I see that I have used article talk pages too much, so to speak; my only excuse is that it is rather common in the IP area. As Black Kite mentions: if all were to be sanctioned for this, then there will not be many editors left in the area, Huldra (talk) 12:32, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

    As for WP:BATTLEGROUND: some editors were saying that Omar Barghoti "support terrorism", as he said Palestinians were in the right to use force against occupation, and stating that his views were in accordance with international law. I am not sure how you can argue for or against this without "importing the conflict to Misplaced Pages", Huldra (talk) 12:47, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

    SN54129

    Fyi all, the context (ommitted here by accident, I assume), is this AN thread.Re. the case itself, at first glance—and somewhat apropos Sandstein—some of those diffs don't seem to be discussing Arab-Isreali relations at all—some are surely referencing Axis-occupied territories during WWII: par example. ——SerialNumber54129 10:01, 12 May 2019 (UTC) @Sandstein: It looks as if someone else has noticed too  :) ——SerialNumber54129 10:07, 12 May 2019 (UTC)
    Diff #7, cited by Mr Ernie as "particularly inappropriate" is in fact the one single diff that can honestly be said to have been dealt with: it was the immediate cause of the block that was summarilly lifted. ——SerialNumber54129 14:37, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

    Statement by Icewhiz

    The AN discussion covered diff7, not the other 9 diffs (or most of them at least). The diffs here are on:

    Possible comparisons (given context) between Israel/Palestine and resistance to Nazis in WWII does not make things better here.

    The relevant policy here would be WP:BLP (diff3 - the author is a living person who per hewiki filled an education/PR staff role in 1948 - the diff seems to accuse him "ethnic cleansing" without sources backing this up), WP:ASPERSIONS (diff1 - "genius admins", diff4 - "usual suspects"), and WP:NOTSOAPBOX/WP:NOTFORUM (other diffs).Icewhiz (talk) 12:15, 12 May 2019 (UTC) clarify source for this.Icewhiz (talk) 13:27, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

    In diff3 - no evidence (sources) has been provided that Zvika Dror was a participant in the operation (which seems unlikely per what I see in sourcing). Icewhiz (talk) 13:18, 12 May 2019 (UTC)
    @El C: - my understanding of diff at RSN + reply to diff at RSN (in which they stated this wasn't against Israeli sources in general - and that they never challenged Benny Morris for instance) - was that the comment of " no better source than those who depopulated (or "ethically cleansed")" was directed at Dror specifically (as the sole author of the book under discussion).Icewhiz (talk) 06:30, 15 May 2019 (UTC)
    Operation Ha-Har was also a battle between Egyptian regulars and the Harel brigade (and the end result was also a change in some territory). The book - a brigade history - relies on archive data, not just interviews - and is used for instance for quoting ordinances from the archives: " the Har’el Brigade published a combat ordinance, which read: "The enemy is planning...." page 267. To my understanding, Dror served in a PR/culture role in the national Palmach HQ (itself, at this stage, mainly in charge of recruiting/training troops - control of combat troops had been transferred to the IDF's command a few months prior. The Palmach (and its HQ) were to be dissolved the next month (November)) - and AFAICT was never attached to the Harel brigade in Jerusalem nor any other combat unit during the 1948 war. Even if he were involved in the operation - this would be a very serious charge towards a BLP, that should be backed up with evidence. In this case - it seems he was entirely un-involved in the operation, nor did he hold a high-ranking role in the IDF.Icewhiz (talk) 10:58, 15 May 2019 (UTC)

    Statement by Zero0000

    Apparently it is "get Huldra" time.

    This is an unacceptable example of forum-shopping. The essence of this case was already handled at ANI.

    Also, Huldra is absolutely entitled to question the bias of sources that are proposed for use in articles. In the RSN case that Icewhiz indicates, Huldra expresses the opinion that an article on a military operation that depopulated several villages should not be primarily based on testimony from a participant participants in the operation. This is a perfectly valid argument. If we can't debate the reliability of sources without being accused of BLP violations, we might as well give up on WP:V.

    Note also that Huldra did not refer to the author of the book in question personally, but to the book's sources (using the plural "those" without naming specific people) so even by rigorous reading of WP:BLPGROUP this cannot be a BLP violation. This charge is ridiculous on its face. Zero 13:35, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

    • Diff #1. How can anyone imagine that to be an actionable violation?
    • Diff #2 is extracted from a private discussion that is largely amiable.
    • Diff #3, see above. Note that OP is misrepresenting this diff, as I described.
    • Diff #4. Lots of people grumble when their questions at RSN only attract involved editors. They even use the phrase "usual suspects" fairly often (try searching for it).
    • Diff #5. Gave an opinion on an RfC. This is actionable now?
    • Diffs #6 to #10. This is the subject that the ANI case dealt with and there was a clear consensus which led the admin who had initially imposed a penalty to withdraw it and apologize. I suggest that second-guessing that other case without substantial additional evidence would be a violation of natural justice.

    Zero 13:55, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

    To editor Sandstein: So the double jeopardy doesn't bother you? How many times is it reasonable to report someone for the same offences? Zero 12:22, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

    @Sandstein: So you are saying that if we can't get rid of someone we don't like on the first attempt we can just keep trying until we find a sympathetic admin. That might be in the letter of the rules, but I don't believe it is in the spirit of them and it is not a community standard. Besides, as I wrote in the two sentences below this one, you haven't actually identified an offence. Zero 13:40, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

    To editor Sandstein: Maybe you don't realise that the legitimacy of resistance to an occupation was only introduced into the discussion by Huldra to defend a living person against a charge of supporting terrorism diff 6. Robust enforcement of the BLP rules is not something that should be punished. Zero 13:08, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

    To editor El C: No, it isn't so simple. There is an article about an operation of the Palmach in which multiple villages were conquered, with those residents who hadn't fled being expelled and nobody ever being allowed back. Huldra was disturbed by the fact that the main source used in the article was a book written by a member of the Palmach based largely on interviews and memoirs from Palmach members who were direct participants. The review that Huldra cites in evidence strongly associates the author with his witnesses "Once a Palmachnik, always a Palmachnik" and even if he wasn't there with a gun he was a member of the organization (intelligence officer?) and shares responsibility. I strongly agree with Huldra that the book is dubious as a source, because both the author and his witnesses have an obvious conflict of interest. Anyway, Huldra wrote "if you have no better source than those who depopulated" which can refer to the witnesses, or the author, or both. Huldra stated her objection using the word "depopulated" which is neutral and accurate, and added in quotes the phrase "ethnic cleansing" that is the usual Palestinian way of referring to such events. There is no rule that we have to use Israeli euphemisms when we discuss sources. Zero 10:46, 15 May 2019 (UTC)

    Statement by Objective3000

    Just reading the list of diffs, I’m not understanding the violations other than some sounding a bit forumy or soapboxy. In context, they appear to be arguments by example. Perhaps some comments could have been more polite – but then, look at what they are in response to. I don’t see anything sanctionable. Frankly, it looks like retribution for the TBan directly above this filing, which would be sanctionable. But, I’m not suggesting a boomerang either. O3000 (talk) 13:05, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

    For some odd reason, I tend to avoid the delightful repartee at a-i DS articles, and therefore haven’t run across Huldra until recently. It appears that she is a valuable editor in a difficult arena. Given that Huldra was blocked two days ago for diffs in this filing, and then unblocked with an apology after heavy criticism for the block; I wouldn’t think another filing on basically the same subject would be proper without a case that is so ironclad it is etched in lapis lazuli tablets. O3000 (talk) 14:23, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

    Statement by Mr Ernie

    A 3 month topic ban seems appropriate here, per the enforcement request above. Diff #7 is particularly inappropriate. I also note that the administrators commenting above did not seem concerned that the request didn't specifically spell out how the quoted diffs violated any specific sanction. Mr Ernie (talk) 13:59, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

    @Coretheapple: if you look at the request just above this one, you'll see Sir Joseph was sanctioned for a comment on his talk page, and an article talk page, therefore it seems the admins broadly construe DS to also apply to those pages. Mr Ernie (talk) 15:06, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

    Statement by Coretheapple

    Am I missng something? "Editors reminded" above states that editors must edit from a neutral point of view, which clearly means editing of mainspace, not talk pages. Clearly Huldra has an agenda. That's been plainly obviious on the rare occasions when I edit in I/P and encounter her. One could argue that she has a battlegraound mentality. That too is evident. But I don't see grounds for sanctions in what has been presented. Unless I'm missing something, as I said. Coretheapple (talk) 14:51, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

    @Mr Ernie: With regard to your comment and IceWhiz's on my talk page: if the practice is to topic ban or otherwise sanction editors for political comments indicating an agenda, then my opinion would change. The question is to what extent AE will tolerate expressions of agenda to be proferred as arguments for inclusion or exclusion of text from an article. Obviously a political statement is improper, but is it actionable? I see improper arguments so often in RfCs I have lost count. Coretheapple (talk) 15:25, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

    Statement by Nosebagbear

    So let's go through the diffs one by one:

    1. I believe criticising admin's decision-making is specifically noted as not an issue; regardless, barely impolite, let alone a CIVIL breach
    2. This is an analogy, rather than actually giving a direct implication link the targeted editor to the example in question. It's only risky because of misunderstandings of that point.
    3. Factually incorrect to state as an attack - unlike the legitimate misunderstanding above, this is specifically in reference to the discussion around it about the extremely non-independent source used
    4. See Point 1
    5. Definitely not a justified !vote per NOTAFORUM, but also not indicating attacking civilians is legitimate. A NOTAFORUM breach does not warrant sanction
    6. Again, another analogy which is legitimate, though misunderstandable. The first part is legally correct, but can be considered a NOTAFORUM breach depending on circumstances
    7-10: These are bringing up already-resolved points in ANI, already handled in ANI. In any case: arguing legality certainly can be included in some talk pages, as it can be relevant to article content. Arguing what she would do may or may not be proper (depending on use to make a point vs political persuading/soapboxing) but again, wouldn't be sanction-able.

    Nosebagbear (talk) 16:47, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

    Statement by Nableezy

    AE is not AN round two. A boomerang for playing the if at first you dont succeed try try again game is called for IMO. Huldra deserves at most a warning to refrain from violating NOTFORUM. Levivich deserves a warning for attempting to play the thought police on Misplaced Pages and for forum shopping. Is somebody not allowed to believe that resisting occupation is valid? Oh ok, I guess that settles that. Huldra would do well to keep her personal opinions personal, but thats it. nableezy - 17:58, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

    Oh, and Levivich, I thought you were oh so concerned with the 500 word limit. Huh. nableezy - 18:14, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

    @Sandstein: I think you are misreading the discussion. Sir Joseph argued that a living person is a terrorist because he supposedly said that such and such is a legitimate target. Huldra's response to that is and are they not legitimate targets? Somebody else made an issue of who is or is not a legitimate target, a discussion that I agree does not belong on a Misplaced Pages talk page. Huldra responded to that. You are really going to sanction somebody for responding, with a question at that, to somebody elses argument? Huldra didnt even say that they are legitimate targets, which you appear to be saying she did. nableezy - 22:16, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

    Statement by Jayron32

    Just to clarify, I have no opinions one way or the other on whether or not Huldra did anything sanctionable. In closing the prior discussion, I noted that some editors felt so, which was evident and apparent from their own comments. I am officially neutral on the matter. --Jayron32 10:53, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

    Statement by (username)

    Result concerning Huldra

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
    • I would decline taking action because the complaint does not make clear which, if any, conduct policy or guideline each of these diffs violate. The request template requires complainants to provide "an explanation how these edits violate" a sanction or remedy. Sandstein 09:05, 12 May 2019 (UTC)
    • Waiting on a statement by Huldra. Sandstein 18:13, 12 May 2019 (UTC)
    • Because Huldra doesn't seem to be active, here's my view: There's clearly a WP:NOTFORUM problem, but I'm reluctant to impose sanctions for that alone, because the fact is that talk pages are very frequently misused in this manner without sanctions. However, there's also a WP:BATTLEGROUND issue. Even without expressing a view about whether it is appropriate to argue on a talk page that certain persons or groups are legitimate targets in a violent conflict, we can determine that doing so imports the conflict into Misplaced Pages, and misuses Misplaced Pages as a vehicle for the prosecution of the conflict. This is clearly prohibited by policy. I would therefore impose a three-months topic ban against Huldra. Sandstein 12:12, 13 May 2019 (UTC)
    • @Zero0000: Double jeopardy is a concept from criminal law that does not apply to Misplaced Pages. (And if it would apply, something akin to the dual sovereignty doctrine would need to be considered with respect to sanctions considered by the community, and by ArbCom or on its authority). Because discretionary sanctions are not consensus-based, but rather a matter of the individual discretion of administrators, any prior discussion or consensus at the community level is not binding (although it may of course be taken into account). My takeaway from the earlier AN block review was that the community concluded that the previously imposed indefinite block was inappropriate (and I agree with this). This has no bearing on the milder sanction(s) now being discussed. Sandstein 13:22, 13 May 2019 (UTC)
    • I think the only thing being obviously violated here is WP:NOTFORUM, which isn't something I'm willing to immediately sanction over. Huldra should have received a warning about that after the ANI block discussion; since they didn't then, they should do so now (or, you know, take that message to heart without a formal warning). I would take no other action. Vanamonde (Talk) 16:36, 12 May 2019 (UTC)
    • As far as I can see, diffs #6-#10 have already been dealt with by the above quoted AN thread with its related admin actions; therefore bringing it here after the event does somewhat appear like forum-shopping. I don't see much else in the remaining diffs apart from issues of NOTFORUM, which if we were sanctioning people for here, there would practically be no editors left at ARBPIA and other hot-button venues. Black Kite (talk) 16:55, 12 May 2019 (UTC)
    • Black Kite, I wouldn't say for the sake of symmetry, but per Jayron32's closing remarks, I actually do think that this is something which is appropriate for AE to examine in its totality. El_C 20:58, 12 May 2019 (UTC)
    • I note that GoldenRing has rescinded the topic-ban against User:Sir Joseph, which was effectively for the same issues as are being discussed here, so my inclination now would be to close this with no action as well. Black Kite (talk) 08:05, 14 May 2019 (UTC)
    • Icewhiz, I'm confused. What comments were made regarding Zvika Dror? — you seem to be missing some documentation there. I agree with Sandstein — the indefinite block lacked consensus, but that indeed has no bearing on milder sanctions which may be proposed here. El_C 01:11, 15 May 2019 (UTC)

    WookieInHeat

    This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
    Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

    Request concerning WookieInHeat

    User who is submitting this request for enforcement
    PeterTheFourth (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 12:17, 13 May 2019 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    WookieInHeat (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

    Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

    Sanction or remedy to be enforced
    Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/American_politics_2#Discretionary_sanctions_(1932_cutoff) :
    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
    1. First edit removing section. So far so good, no violation I know of.
    2. Reinstates a challenged (via reversion) edit without obtaining consensus on the talk page of the article
    3. Reinstates a challenged (via reversion) edit without obtaining consensus on the talk page of the article
    4. Does the above and also breaks 1RR
    Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
    If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
    • Alerted about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, see the system log linked to above or this diff.
    Additional comments by editor filing complaint
    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

    Discussion concerning WookieInHeat

    Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
    Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

    Statement by WookieInHeat

    Procedural question from Mr Ernie

    Is someone violating the consensus required provision an exemption for another editor to violate that provision and revert back? It's not clear to me per the edit notice, nor the guideline page (WP:CRP), which do not state any exemptions (although surely BLP would be one). If not, then Bradv, PeterTheFourth, and Nomoskedasticity also appear to have violated WP:CRP. Regardless, this appears to be a clear violation by the defendant. Mr Ernie (talk) 13:53, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

    Statement by Galobtter

    I was in the process of filing a request myself when I saw this; noting that I told him that he had violated the restriction after the first violation on May 10 (along with the DS alert), yet he continued to revert on May 13. @Mr. Ernie, I haven't seen anyone regard reverting to enforce the remedy to be violation though indeed the restriction itself is not 100% clear there. Galobtter (pingó mió) 14:49, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

    Statement by (username)

    Result concerning WookieInHeat

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
    Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement Add topic