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Talk:United Nations Security Council Resolution 242

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Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 28 February 2017

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 20 May 2019

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Link "PLO" to "https://en.wikipedia.org/Palestine_Liberation_Organization" CytopathSKG (talk) 20:21, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

 Done – Jonesey95 (talk) 04:40, 21 May 2019 (UTC)


Palestinian rejection

The lede includes the following sentence, which is unsourced and not covered in the main body: “The Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) in its Ten Point Program adopted in 1974 rejected Resolution 242, with the rejection repeated by the Steadfastness and Confrontation Front in 1977.”

Does anyone have a source for this? We need to explain exactly what part of the resolution they rejected, if any, in order to put it in its proper context.

Onceinawhile (talk) 22:03, 27 February 2020 (UTC)

I'm not familiar with the specifics, I had thought the PLO was against 242 from the beginning. Later on, the objection was mainly based on the Palestinians being portrayed as nothing more than refugees.Selfstudier (talk) 12:41, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
See below.--Aroma Stylish (talk) 12:59, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
Added here
As an aside, pretty sure Arafat signed on to 242 in 1988.Selfstudier (talk) 15:42, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
I reinstated the text with sources. Article 1 of the 10-point program is the rejection of 242 as the basis for Arab or international dealings.--Chuka Chief (talk) 21:14, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
Hi @Chuka Chief: I think this is a little hasty. I have just been reading what is considered one of the best sourced books on the subject – Avi Rai’s The Bride and the Dowry, which chronicles the period from June 67 to October 68 in detail. See a summary here. The sentence you added back, together with the subsequent quote we have from Israel, is used as a pro-Israeli talking point in order to support their theme of long-term “Palestinian rejectionism”. But the out-of-context juxtaposition of these two facts creates a misleading picture. In reality, the PLO were irrelevant actors at the time. It was the West Bank Palestinian leadership who mattered, and they made a consistent effort to make peace with Israel until they were blocked by the Israelis. Israel’s interest in land-for-peace stretched only to the Egyptian and Syrian areas. The Israeli government were at no point willing to give back the West Bank.
All of which is why things like this should not be in the lede until they are properly dealt with in the main body of the article (as required per MOS:LEAD).
Onceinawhile (talk) 21:51, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
I think we need a section "PLO and Res 242" or similar in the body so the whole thing can be dealt with NPOV.Selfstudier (talk) 12:52, 29 February 2020 (UTC)
Moving the goalposts, are we? You challenged sourcing. Sourcing was provided. Rejecting 242 was a cornerstone of the PLO, the #1 article in PLO programmes. The PLO, as the main representative body of the Palestinian people, is very relevant. Further, leaving in the lede the following single sentence paragraph: "In September 1993, the PLO agreed that Resolutions 242 and 338 should be the basis for negotiations with Israel when it signed the Declaration of Principles." while omitting the longstanding PLO rejection is entirely inconsistent.--Chuka Chief (talk) 16:20, 29 February 2020 (UTC)
No moving goalposts, it was challenged both because it was unsourced (it was only added a couple months ago and you are sourcing it after the fact) AND because it was not in the body. It's very easy to source because it is true. It is as well completely misleading to, in effect, cherry pick the start and end dates as has been done here. At the other end of it, the 1988 Algiers declaration isn't even mentioned. This happens when you just pick out random facts and stuff them into the lead without a proper consideration. If you are unable to or don't want to do a section like I suggested I will do it.Selfstudier (talk) 17:57, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 28 February 2020

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Please restore this text with the following source to back it up:

Thanks--Aroma Stylish (talk) 12:59, 28 February 2020 (UTC)

It was objected to not only because of it being unsourced but because it is not in the article body (stuff in the lead needs to be in the body and the lead is a summary of the important points of the body). Where would you want to put it in the body? After that we can see whether that is a sufficient importance to make it into the lead. I want to think a bit more but my first reaction is that 1974 seems arbitrary. As I know it (I need to check), 242 was opposed by the PLO right from the outset not just from 1974 and then later they relaxed their opposition.Selfstudier (talk) 13:59, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
In fact, just following the given wikilink to the 10 point plan, it says in there "...only repeated the principles of the policies which the Palestinian National Council had accepted in the past: the denial of United Nations Security Council Resolution 242". So, while WP is not in itself a source, that accords with what I had thought, that the rejection does not date from 1974; on the contrary, that date might be looked at more as a date when the PLO began to think about relaxing their objection to it.Selfstudier (talk) 14:59, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
Also, I couldn't find any reference to the Steadfastness and Confrontation Front in the ref you gave, maybe it is on another page? Selfstudier (talk) 15:05, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
Per my comment in the above thread just now, I agree it is true that the PLO rejected it. They did so by definition, as they had been founded only a few years earlier on what was then an extremist platform. What I hadn’t realized is that at that point they represented mostly refugee Palestinians, not the people on the ground in the West Bank. Which makes their rejection entirely logical, but needs to be put in its proper context. Onceinawhile (talk) 21:56, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit extended-protected}} template. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 17:27, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
  1. https://books.google.com.tr/books?id=8CiNDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT100&dq=Ten+Point+Program+PLO+rejected+242&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=Ten%20Point%20Program%20PLO%20rejected%20242&f=false Jordan's Palestinian Challenge, 1948-1983: A Political History By Clinton Bailey
  2. Tucker, Spencer C.; Roberts, Priscilla (2008). The Encyclopedia of the Arab-Israeli Conflict (1st ed.). ABC-CLIO. p. 1335. ISBN 978-1-85109-841-5.
  3. Brynen, Rex (1990). Sanctuary And Survival: The Plo In Lebanon. Westview Press. ISBN 0813379199.
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