Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Bodney (talk | contribs) at 22:44, 16 June 2020 (→Reactions (criticism and support) to J. K. Rowling's views on transgender issues: belated apology). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Template:JRowling

This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

	J. K. Rowling is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Misplaced Pages community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.
[REDACTED]	This article appeared on Misplaced Pages's Main Page as Today's featured article on April 11, 2008.
Article milestones Date Process Result June 3, 2006 Good article nominee Listed January 3, 2007 Peer review Reviewed October 7, 2007 Peer review Reviewed December 8, 2007 Featured article candidate Promoted Current status: Featured article

Template:Vital article

This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Biography: Arts and Entertainment This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Misplaced Pages's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography This article is supported by the arts and entertainment work group (assessed as Mid-importance). Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Bristol Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Bristol, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Bristol-related articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.BristolWikipedia:WikiProject BristolTemplate:WikiProject BristolBristol Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Children's literature Top‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Children's literature, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Children's literature on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Children's literatureWikipedia:WikiProject Children's literatureTemplate:WikiProject Children's literaturechildren and young adult literature Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. Tasks you can do: edit history watch purge Here are some open tasks for WikiProject Children's literature, an attempt to create and standardize articles related to children's literature. Feel free to help with any of the following tasks. Add {{Portal|Children's literature}} to the See also section of related articles. Tag the talk pages of related articles with {{WikiProject Children's literature}} Join WikiProject Children's literature and list yourself as a Participant in the project. Cleanup: A cleanup listing for this project is available. See also the list by category, the tool's wiki page and the index of WikiProjects. Deletion discussions: listed at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Literature Notability: Articles with notability concerns, listed at WikiProject Notability Rate the Unassessed articles in the Children's literature WikiProject. References: Add references to Unreferenced BLPs. Requested articles: Create a requested article on literature Stubs: Improve a stub-class article edit Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Women writers High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Women writers, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of women writers on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Women writersWikipedia:WikiProject Women writersTemplate:WikiProject Women writersWomen writers High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Women This article is within the scope of WikiProject Women, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of women on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.WomenWikipedia:WikiProject WomenTemplate:WikiProject WomenWikiProject Women Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Novels: Fantasy / Harry Potter High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Novels, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to novels, novellas, novelettes and short stories on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and contribute to the general Project discussion to talk over new ideas and suggestions.NovelsWikipedia:WikiProject NovelsTemplate:WikiProject Novelsnovel High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by Fantasy task force (assessed as High-importance). This article is supported by Harry Potter task force (assessed as Top-importance). Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Literature Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Literature, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Literature on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.LiteratureWikipedia:WikiProject LiteratureTemplate:WikiProject LiteratureLiterature Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Template:WP1.0

A fact from this article was featured on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the On this day section on July 31, 2017.

This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Mgs1234 (article contribs).

This article has been mentioned by a media organization: Stephen Foley (2009-02-03). "Is Misplaced Pages cracking up?". Irish Independent.

Semi-protected edit request on 18 January 2019

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

in the Childhood part, can you change it from 23 months to 1 year and 11 months 185.39.202.226 (talk) 08:13, 18 January 2019 (UTC)

 Not done - it's common practice to list anything less than two years as combined months. Changing to years and months breaks the flow of the sentence and adds unnecessary complexity. Chaheel Riens (talk) 08:32, 18 January 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 June 2019

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Charlton Athletic fan. 213.106.89.77 (talk) 11:49, 7 June 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ‑‑ElHef (Meep?) 13:01, 7 June 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 June 2019

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Please can you change the key image to this image? I have permission to use the attached image, the credit should be: Photography Debra Hurford Brown © J.K. Rowling 2018

Tbp2018 (talk) 10:48, 14 June 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: That photo does not exist. NiciVampireHeart 12:29, 14 June 2019 (UTC)

More to the point the photo has not been uploaded with the correct permissions. I suspect you were trying to link to an offline image, or one that is somewhere on the web - but not hosted either by Misplaced Pages or on Commons.

I suggest you upload the image first, apply the necessary permissions for what seems to be an image with specific copyright details, and then try again. Chaheel Riens (talk) 12:41, 14 June 2019 (UTC)

Is this the one? Esowteric+Talk 13:05, 14 June 2019 (UTC)

If it is, I'd be willing to bet that the licensing info is incorrect and needs changing/correcting before it can be considered. Chaheel Riens (talk) 07:19, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

WorldCat data in error for Pegasus article?

The data for an article mentioned in the section on Rowling's education is wrong. It says the year of Rowling's article "What was the Name of that Nymph Again?" from Pegasus, the journal of the University of Exeter's Classics department is 1988. However, I found a PDF of that article which clearly dates it as 1998. Not to mention that Rowling mentions Professor Binns in the article; the Potterverse wasn't even a gleam in her eye in 1988.

I think whoever wrote the citation got the date from WorldCat. 1988 is written in the Publisher field, but I don't know that necessarily means the article should be dated 1988.

A Princeton library has the correct date for it online. I suppose I could just change the citation to the Princeton library instead of WorldCat, but I find that untidy.

Should I try to change the WorldCat data? It seems like you have to be affiliated with some library in order to request changes. Quickfoot (talk) 01:05, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

Education section

The Education section notes J.K. Rowling's "What was the Name of that Nymph Again? or Greek and Roman Studies Recalled" as being published in 1988, but it appears to have been published in 1998 as found within the Journal of the University of Exeter Department of Classics And Ancient History on a University website at: https://blogs.exeter.ac.uk/pegasus/files/2013/06/41-1998.pdf

AndrewHeagle (talk) 11:41, 9 January 2020 (UTC)Andrew Heagle

References

1. https://blogs.exeter.ac.uk/pegasus/files/2013/06/41-1998.pdf

Why add the the maya forsater situation and TERF accusations with biased sources

Similar controversies

I recently edited this article to remove the line Similar controversies have arisen with regards to her liking tweets which some considered to be transphobic. This line was initially supported by a PinkNews source, which I removed per WP:RSP, and by articles from Vox and LGBTQ Nation, both of which can be considered reliable sources. However, neither article would appear to effectively support that sentence. The Vox source was in fact previously used to support this sentence Media outlets stated that Rowling had expressed controversial views on transgender issues prior to this incident, with some describing her as transphobic which I removed in this edit as it appeared to be a generalisation, not supported as per WP:3REFS. Retrospectively, this source does not adequately support the remaining sentence, as it principally covers the Forstater case, with the rest of the article being social media speculation, making it WP:UNDUE as a source for the sentence. The LGBTQ Nation source relies entirely on speculation regarding social media. I do not believe that there is enough reliable coverage to support the sentence, per WP:3REFS and that to include it based on the sources given would be WP:UNDUE for a WP:BLP. I would therefore propose to revert to the edit here . AutumnKing (talk) 19:19, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for discussing. It won't be hard to find additional Rowling's opinions on transgender issues, and I'll happily add them over the next couple of days. Minimising coverage of negative opinions of transgender issues and activism seems to be a particular interest of yours, but coverage of such opinions does seem to be on the increase. Note that social media such as Twitter can be used as a reliable source. Bastun 22:18, 6 June 2020 (UTC) --- Huh. Timely tweets tonight. She and Gl*nner seem to do this a lot! Bastun 22:25, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

@Bastun: References to news coverage of the tweets and subsequent commentary will be better than linking to WP:PRIMARY tweets and snippets. Should wait before expanding on the recent controversy, though the previous Forstater controversy needs some better expansion itself. Gotitbro (talk) 04:48, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

Oh, absolutely. Bastun 08:31, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

Clearly current events have overtaken things here, hence my strike through. From a Misplaced Pages perspective, Rowling's latest comments, and the subsequent coverage they have generated, should prove helpful to editors. I would suggest that editors refrain from throwing aspersions at other Wiki editors, as has been done on this talk page. My aim, as I would hope is the aim of most editing here, is to edit Misplaced Pages and particularly BLP's fairly, keeping balance and context in mind, and attempting to avoid personal bias/agendas. Passing judgement on others supposed motivations is neither helpful, in the spirit of collaboration or general politeness. AutumnKing (talk) 20:02, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

I stand by my comment. Your contributions speak for themselves and appear to be aimed at minimising, specifically, coverage of negative opinions of transgender issues. That is contrary to Misplaced Pages's policy of neutrality. You could of course prove me wrong by supporting the inclusion of coverage "the subsequent coverage they have generated", which you say above that you support. Bastun 20:12, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Twitter is far from reliable unless it comes from proven sources making use of Twitter like for example a journalist. When your information comes from multiple tweeters its incorrect. Hate to see[REDACTED] fall to tabloid standards over unproven allegations and virtue signaling. Hpdh4 11:57, 8 June 2020 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by HPDEATHLYHALLOWS4 (talk • contribs)

Per WP:NOTEVERYTHING, especially WP:NOTNEWS and WP:NOTSOAPBOX, and keeping in mind the reasoning at WP:RECENTISM, we should not include every single flash-in-the-pan piece of commentary. As of right now, regarding her June tweets, we have what the tweets were about, their criticism, and, for WP:NPOV, the WP:BLP subject's response, all covered by WP:Secondary sources. This is more than enough coverage of this extremely recent incident. Crossroads 20:10, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Agreed, we should not include every flash in the pan response. I added some criticism of Rowling's most recent anti-trans tweets yesterday, made by several notable people not directly associated with her, which were subsequently removed, and on balance, that's probably the correct decision. Keeping in mind WP:NOTPAPER, WP:BALANCE, WP:TENYEARRULE, however, the criticism of her tweets by Daniel Radcliffe which was reported today most certainly is proper to include. Bastun 23:25, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Why? Because he's Harry Potter? What about Evanna Lynch's response? Should we include it too? Serendious 23:52, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

No, because he's responding via the Trevor Project after years of collaboration with them, making it pretty much their official comment, even if his name is on the open letter. Why is GLAAD okay but The Trevor Project not? YuvalNehemia (talk) 04:32, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

We don't need two advocacy groups' detailed comments. Remember, this is a flash in the pan source-wise. It should be kept brief. Crossroads 04:41, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

So why does her reply belong here? Just state the outline of the controversy and link to Politics of J. K. Rowling#Transgender rights. Why is her reply significant enough for the main article, but The Trevor Project's is not? Especially if the latter got more media attention? YuvalNehemia (talk) 04:45, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Because: and Crossroads 04:50, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

That explains quite well why we shouldn't include stuff like Mara Wilson's brilliant reply, and also why we probably shouldn't include Rowling's reply (to your notice). But not why we shouldn't have The Trevor Project. I mean, GLAAD's response is quite clearly not news, and therefore is included. Same for the Trevor Project. YuvalNehemia (talk) 04:55, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

That explains nothing. :-) No valid reason for excluding Radcliffe's response on behalf of the Trevor Project has been presented. Given the inextricable links between Radcliffe and Rowling, excluding any mention of his response - especially given the coverage it has received - would actually seem perverse. Bastun 20:12, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

I added a mention of Radcliffe's comments before seeing this conversation. Sorry, I would've discussed the issue first if I had known it was controversial. Radcliffe's and Redmayne's comments are included in more than enough RS to show they are notable. I believe it also belongs according to WP:NOTNEWS as well since this seems to be more than a routine reporting and are not overemphasized in the article. Rab V (talk) 20:28, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Thinking about this more, and looking at the coverage now, if editors want to mention commentary from Radcliffe via The Trevor Project, then I suppose that makes sense. Still, I think the June 2020 material that is critical of Rowling should be kept short enough to be a single paragraph that is not unusually long, per WP:NOTNEWS and WP:RECENTISM. I also don't think we necessarily need to mention Eddie Redmayne and Evanna Lynch's responses, as they are individuals who say basically the same things as GLAAD and The Trevor Project. But my main issue is watching out for excessive length or detail. Rab V, your version of it was summarized well. But let's see what others say on including the mention of the Lynch and Redmayne comments. Crossroads 20:57, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Thanks. Agree about how long it should be. I'd also say the current version is too long when discussing her blog post per WP:NOTNEWS and seems to be written with a bit of a slant. Right now it's seeming like Redmayne's comments are getting a lot of traction in RS but not Lynch so I think a brief mention of Redmayne may be due though it is similar to other comments. Rab V (talk) 21:16, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

My main concern is also keeping things brief. I would probably cut things down to two paragraphs, one about Rowling's views and one about the backlash. That is roughly how this AP article organizes things, focusing largely on Rowling's views in the first half then the backlash in the second. Regarding the criticism from Harry Potter actors: I think it's worth including, as long as it's kept as brief as possible. Radcliffe's, Lynch's, Watson's, and Redmayne's criticism have all gotten headline coverage. WanderingWanda (talk) 03:12, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

I prefer the current ordering, which is the same as the Reuters piece.

Regarding Rab V's tweaks to the summary I wrote of the Reuters piece:

1. The bit about some of which had been in the form of abusive language and threats of violence should be mentioned. Reuters, as a news service, is a superior source to various entertainment magazines, and they saw fit to mention this. It gives context to what she goes on to say about having suffered violence, and is part of the background complexity of the situation.

2. It was claimed that She expressed concern that some young women were being persuaded to escape womanhood via gender transition, noting her own struggles as a teenager. was confusing and not in source. I don't feel too strongly about including this sentence, even though Reuters emphasizes this point, but I need to address the claim it was not in the source. Here is the supporting text: Rowling, 54, explained in detail her research and beliefs on trans issues, and the concerns she has about how women’s rights and some young people’s lives were being impacted by some forms of trans activism....“I’ve wondered whether, if I’d been born 30 years later, I too might have tried to transition,” she wrote. “The allure of escaping womanhood would have been huge.” She said that as a teenager she had struggled with severe Obsessive–Compulsive Disorder (OCD) and that she now believes that had she found community and sympathy online, she could have been persuaded to turn herself into the boy her father said he would have preferred. I'm not sure where the confusion lay, but adjustments can be made of course.

3. She never stated didn't just say that allowing trans women access to single-sex spaces dangerous. Note the Reuters source carefully: she did not want girls and women to be less safe, and she gave some examples of where she thought demands by trans people were dangerous to women. “When you throw open the doors of bathrooms and changing rooms to any man who believes or feels he’s a woman ... then you open the door to any and all men who wish to come inside.” (Emphasis added.) She is clearly stating that the issue goes beyond trans women - that certain criteria for access allow persons who are not trans women and do not actually identify as women to gain access for other reasons ("any and all"). We can't attribute to her a position different from the one actually held.

4. On She stated that many women consider terms like "people who menstruate" to be demeaning, comparing them to degrading slurs that have been used against women., the comparing them to degrading slurs that have been used against women. portion was cut off. I think this should stay because so much of the recent commentary revolves around the "people who menstruate" phrase, which we already quote, we should mention why specifically she objected to it beyond vaguely calling it "demeaning". Crossroads 07:30, 11 June 2020 (UTC) correcting Crossroads 15:27, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Agree with keeping this brief, to two to three paragraphs. Expanding as necessary when there is another such controversy (the current controversy did not exist when this talk page section was started). Re Crossroads' comments, (3), her quote not only misgenders trans women but absolutely does imply that allowing trans women are dangerous. Re (4), I do know for a fact that those remarks insulted and demeaned post-menopausal women and women and those who have had hysterectomies. That should also be covered. Bastun 08:37, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

I see the Radcliffe/Trevor Project material was removed again. Consensus now seems to favour inclusion. I propose including a sentence about the criticism from Radcliffe, Watson and other HP stars, including reference to the Trevor Project. Bastun 10:12, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

If there is ever another such controversy, I don't support adding another paragraph, per NOTNEWS. Since the topic is politically charged and entertainment sources cover every little thing celebrities say (both Rowling and each person reacting), we get a bunch of different flashes in the pan that say nothing new substantive. I'd say this section should max out at three reasonably sized paragraphs, one of which is about her response(s), rather than adding another paragraph in August and another in January and so on. If new incidents occur, we can make it less about specific incidents and more about comments that sources have made about the overall pattern of statements. Regarding point #3, she does do that, but it also is about men as I explained. Regarding #4, you can't know that for a fact as that is an opinion. That opinion is not of any note - it's just some random person on Twitter who never even said they were a post-menopausal woman or a woman with a hysterectomy. Crossroads 15:19, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, re-working the section next time there's a controversy works too. As long as it's not "there can never be more than we have now", obviously. Looking at other biographies, when you stop being notable for your former field and are now mainly known for your new area of interest, that latter topic will be covered in increasing depth. That's only proper, per WP:DUE. Re 4, I can't know what for a fact? NME covered one tweet out of dozens or more that replied in exactly the same fashion to Rowling's tirade - many, many cancer survivors, menopausal women, etc., responded. It's not hard to find those tweets. I suspect you're aware of them, though, and your removal of that response was disingenuous. Reuters is not the gold standard as sources go, and NME is a perfectly valid source, by the way. Bastun 17:40, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Responding to the comments Crossrads made about my edits: They are mainly done since the paragraph was overlong considering NOTNEWS. (1) The phrase from the source "At times, the criticism has taken the form of abusive language and threats of violence" is incredibly vauge. What is abusive language, when was it used, who is saying it, was this why she wrote the essay? Later in the source it goes on to describe her being compared to Voldemort as abuse. Also Reuters is not a superior source necessarily, we have to decide which parts of this story are featured prominently across RS in general to figure out what is appropriate to share and what isn't WP:DUE. (2) The source talks about her worry about how trans activism imapcts her life and whether she might've transitioned. It doesn't explicitly state young people now are transitioning now who shouldn't. The phrase "escaping womanhood" is an unusual and confusing wording for transition to male and calling people who transition to male "women" goes against[REDACTED] policy. (3) 'A man who believes or feels he is a woman' is a charged way to refer to a trans woman. I don't think the article or the preponderance of RS support that she isn't talking about fears around trans women. (4) Sentence was overlong for NOTNEWS, not sure the removed material signigicantly to readers' understanding of Rowling's position. Rab V (talk) 18:16, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

X-posted from Talk:Politics of J. K. Rowling and directed at Crossroads: "Let's see what develops" apparently means just cutting out the material. This article is specifically about Rowling's politics, but you're just cutting the addition, because 'notnews'? It's literally news. 1.6 million ghits right now. WP:IDONTLIKEIT is not a reason for excision or excluding very relevant, referenced material content. You need to seriously address your POV issues. Bastun 23:53, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

Your reply there was to a days-old comment. I stopped objecting to an addition about Radcliffe and the Trevor Project. Other editors, though, also have a say. You need to actually read WP:NOTNEWS. Once you do, you'll see that "It's literally news" is a very poor argument for inclusion. Don't forget WP:IDONTLIKEIT's twin, WP:ILIKEIT. And you are hereby warned to stop attacking me. "Comment on content, not on the contributor." - WP:NPA. Crossroads 04:19, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

Can I ask, what's your obsession with Reuters? It's no more or less reliable than any other reliable source, such as Variety, Entertainment Weekly, or The Guardian. Bastun 15:21, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

See WP:RSP. Obviously, outlets that are mainstream journalism are more reliable than entertainment magazines. Crossroads 16:00, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

I'm very aware of WP:RSP. It quite often makes subtle distinctions for specific outlets, but y'know what? It's perfectly valid to use sources other than Reuters, especially when they're listed on WP:RSP as reliable. Bastun 16:31, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

@Abbyjjjj96: the reasoning behind giving weight to Radcliffe's response is overlayed here. YuvalNehemia (talk) 06:21, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

Rowling's lack of enthusiasm for the English language bending in until-recently-strange ways, and making it clear that having lived as a woman in the entire biological sense has shaped who she is and what she does, while also repeatedly making it very clear she's supportive of trans rights and was way ahead of the curve on that – this is not "transphobic". Even some trans activists are saying it is not and that labeling her that way will hurt their own cause. It's just extremist noise and is not encyclopedic material. Every time someone somewhere gets mad at some tweet, we do not need to write about it in the encyclopedia. This is not EmpheralMessagesAndEmotionsPedia.

Activism organizations and publication may be reliable sources for certain things, but they are absolutely not for their activistic messages and labeling; that is pure primar-source material, by definition. That Variety published everything I just summarized, yet still put "transphobic" in their headline, unqualified, as if this were a world-wide consensus instead of a minority and extreme and self-defeatist opinion, simply means that the magazine needs a better editor. Entertainment magazines (which is most of the sources for this stuff) are not reliable sources for socio-political matters, anyway; they're reliable for things like whether so-and-so celebrity got divorced from thus-and-such other celebrity, and for what whatshername was seen wearing at her movie premiere last week, and how unhappy whatshisname says he is with his album being a flop because the pandemic killed his promo tour. As for the spousal-abuse thing, there has been a little bit of press about this, but it's more using her as an example, not making an example of her, as it were. The incident is not central to Rowling as a public figure, as an encyclopedia subject; rather, people are using her celebrity to draw attention to the overall social problem of domestic violence. It's not our job to dwell on the old private-life matters of bio subjects (especially living ones), even if some other publishers are doing so. If we mention this at all, it should be in-context, in the material about her marriage and divorce; not in some "controversies" section that is getting more and more like a drama-mongering trivia section.
 — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  07:17, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

Rowling claimed trans people are trying to erase the concept of biological sex, which is false and a TERf dogwhistle. She claimed trans women are a threat to cis (or as she said in another TERf dogwhistle, natal) women, which is super transphobic. She claimed most trans men are just confused girls, which is both wrong and transphobic. She claimed trans people are trying to "convert" gay men into trans women, which is again wrong and transphobic. When I read the essay I counted at least 8 falsehoods and 19 direct quotations of TERf rhetoric, and similar breakdowns by medical and psychological professionals found even more. If Rowling decided to stop working on her book to write this 3600 word transphobic manifesto, I believe it's only just that we include a single sentence about how she was criticised for that. YuvalNehemia (talk) 07:42, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

Should Transgender Essay be Included in Non-Fiction?

I vote yes; it is a much talked about piece, and seems to have been written more as a true essay, rather than simply as a blog post. Inspector Semenych (talk) 20:38, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

In my view, no, it should not be listed in the "non-fiction" section at this time; it's better handled in the "views"/"gender identity" section. If it gets continuing coverage, and/or coverage as a significant non-fiction work rather than just a(nother) expression of her views on gender identity, then I would re-evaluate it at that time. ... Frankly, the fact that we're listing even some individual Guardian articles also seems questionable; I did not think these sections were intended to be comprehensive lists of everything a person had ever written, but only of notable/important works, but I may be mistaken there... -sche (talk) 03:42, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Jacobs / Sun paragraph

The paragraph about the Sun publishing, and being reprimanded for publishing, her husband saying her slapped her ... is currently in the "Views"→"Transgender issues" section, but does not ever mention or relate itself to transgender issues. So, it seems like it should be moved. Perhaps the sentence which says "Biographers have suggested that Rowling suffered domestic abuse during her marriage," which was recently expanded with "which was later confirmed by Rowling herself", should be further expanded with "...and by her first husband" + whatever additional details are actually DUE here (and we might want to discuss whether someone who is not the article subject reprimandng a paper for publishing something by someone else who is not the article subject is DUE here as opposed to in the article on e.g. the newspaper which was reprimanded). -sche (talk) 20:29, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

I agree on moving the Sun paragraph. Rab V (talk) 20:34, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

It was me who created this paragraph, I am not necessarily against moving it, but where do we move it to? Although your last sentence was very convoluted, not sure I followed it, sche. PatGallacher (talk) 20:39, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

OK, I moved the paragraph up, into the part of the article that talks about the marriage and about the domestic abuse. For now, I left in the sentence about Jacobs reprimanding the Sun, although it's kind of ... straying off of the topic of this article? (But I don't feel strongly enough to remove it. Another idea for consideration is to make it a {{efn}}, though.) -sche (talk) 21:18, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Hi all. I added the bit about Jacobs and believe it should stay as context pivotal to a full understanding of the outcry against The Sun. Without that statement from Jacobs, it's not in itself clear why The Sun's publishing choices have been formally found to be reprehensible (the quote from the ex-husband is not enough... "he slapped her and he's not sorry" does not in itself adequately convey that his actions are domestic violence and therefore criminal). Thoughts welcome. Zedembee (talk) 01:20, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

"who lost her employment tribunal against (x)"

@-sche: to answer your question in Contrib comments... "tribunal" (no need to follow with "case") is correct in British English. Her loss in the tribunal inspired Ms. Doe to advocate for better protections for pregnant women. Zedembee (talk) 15:50, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

"Her loss in the tribunal" is grammatically very different from "who lost her tribunal against ", though, are you sure the latter phrase is also grammatical? One can also say "her loss in court inspired Ms Doe", but not "she lost her court against X". I see all of eight(!) google hits for the phrase "lost her tribunal against", and while I know WP:GHITS aren't an argument for titling or deleting an article, it does make be wonder if the phrase is standard English. -sche (talk) 21:50, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

Support for Rowling on Trans issues

Support of Rowling's stance on Transgender issues should be included as much as critique is included. Excluding support for her comments is indicative of an obvious bias in support of the gender narrative and isn't conducive to wikipedias main purpose. Some would debate adding any information is controversial and that adding support that doesn't come from Potter cast isn't proper. Support is support no matter who it comes from as in the case of Transgender pop singer Dana International who spoke in support of Rowling. I will add the supporters to counteract the detractors who are motivated by publicity reasons . Hpdh4 16:08, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

I think that would apply to an article on the controversy surrounding Rowling's tweets, should we decide we need one. Serendious 17:38, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

Please read Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view. Positions should be represented proportional to their weight in RS. Including Dana when HP stars only get brief mentions would be WP:FALSEBALANCE.Rab V (talk) 17:57, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

Mermaids, an LGBTQ+ charity, gets a single sentence, and the CEO of GLAAD doesn't get a mention, despite her not insignificant response to Rowling's essay. With all due respect to Dana, her opinion doesn't matter for the purposes of this article. YuvalNehemia (talk) 18:41, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

Dana's opinions matter more then Radcliffe,Glaad,Mermaids, Watson,Lynch,Redmayne,Wright . Dana is actually transgender. Opinions of the person from the actual group matters more then that of controversial organizations like mermaids or PR driven actors . Plus it's a situation of Us vs Them . Having only Rowlings detractors is bias as it assumes Rowling is entirely wrong when people like Dana agrees with her to an extent. Support as much as critique should be included . Even a neutral sentence should be included like : Rowling's claims have garnered some support and then have the Reuters/dana article used as a citation. Hpdh4 19:28, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

Mermaids is a major nonprofit transgender advocacy organisation, and therefore carries much more weight than that of a single random trans person. Furthermore, you seem to still be misunderstanding what a neutral point of view means in relation to Misplaced Pages and transphobia. Transphobia is a fringe position, and therefore should be given less weight on this website than the opposite. Licks-rocks (talk) 21:56, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

No I am starting to understand one thing from this: theirs a bias against Rowlings comments. I still stand by my original position; Both CRITIQUE and SUPPORT should be included to avoid being seen as giving creditability to one side only. It isn't neutral if theirs only critique from PR driven actors and a controversial transRIGHTS organization. Neutral is this : Rowling's statements regarding transgender issues have generated controversy and have garnered both criticism and support from an assortment of celebrities and organizations. Hpdh4 22:09, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

please consider undue weight--Licks-rocks (talk) 22:39, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

Hpdh4, can you please sign your posts with 4x ~ so we can find our way to your talk page? As you were asked to do here Britmax (talk) 22:47, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

Yes, there likely is a bias against Rowling's comments in the real world - LGBT rights issues have included the 'T' since - well, Stonewall, actually and literally, if not before. They're pretty key. To have someone who wrote the HP books apparently miss the point of her own writing by such a distance, and to have her punch down on trans women, women who've had hysterectomies, and post-menopausal women, was shocking for many. Radcliffe's response explains why far better than I can. So it is entirely due to feature the response of GLAAD, The Trevor Project, and Mermaids, all significant organisations, plus the reaction of the actors synonymous with the HP films. Dana International is relevant to JK Rowling how, exactly? You're new here - please read WP:NPOV and WP:DUE. Regards, Bastun 22:59, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

You prove my point Batsun. This site is supposed to be neutral and report things as is. Agendas are left at the table . Fairness demands both criticism and support exist in the same article section. Dont play the new card when your blatantly against Rowling. I'm neither against her and nor am I with her. I just want both criticism and and support to be included. Information should not be excluded on the basis of whose relavent or not and definitely not be excluded on the basis of a editors personal agenda. Somebody else will include Dana's support and I can't wait for the blow up . Hpdh4 00:06, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

The proper point of comparison is with the comments of the Harry Potter actors. Including those, and not those of a notable transgender woman, whose comments were treated as noteworthy by Reuters (and elsewhere), and creating the impression that all celebrities condemned Rowling, is what creates WP:FALSEBALANCE. Simply having played a character in the Harry Potter movies does not give one special authority in this matter. It takes some sort of intellectual gerrymandering to say that their opinions need to be included, but those of an actual transgender woman do not. It's still clear that many other trans people do not feel the way Dana International does because we have comments from groups like GLAAD. Crossroads 03:36, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

That's one sentence only in the Reuters source suggests this isn't as notable in RS as the other actors, especially those with many RS dedicated to their opinions. Rab V (talk) 05:02, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

I mean, in theory I have no problem with the inclusion of Dana International's opinions, it's just that there are quite a few trans people's opinions that disagree with her, and there's no reason to give her more weight over them. So if Dana's opinion gets included, it is only fitting that we include quite a lot more of trans opinions, making this chapter the longest in the article. Also, there is no need to defend Rowling more than her own defence if several professional organisations (the Trevor Project, GLAAD, Mermaids) condemn her entire behaviour in this controversy. YuvalNehemia (talk) 06:16, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

It's Bastun, not Batsun. My point, person whose username is about Harry Potter and wants to include an additional defence of Rowling but is neutral and doesn't stand with her, is WP:FALSEBALANCE. Organisations working with, by and for trans people, amongst others, including GLAAD, Memaids and The Trevor Project have all criticised Rowling's comments, but if you look at the page history here, their criticisms were all removed at one point or another. We still have nothing in the article about the criticism she received for equating sex with menstruation (apparently you stop being a woman after menopause or hysterectomy; and keep being a woman even if you're a trans man?). I have no objection whatsoever to including support for Rowling, if its relevant and satisfies WP:DUE and WP:BALANCE. The HP-associated actors satisfy that. A random singer, not so much. Bastun 09:41, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

The post above says that: "We still have nothing in the article about the criticism she received for equating sex with menstruation (apparently you stop being a woman after menopause or hysterectomy; and keep being a woman even if you're a trans man?)."

That's not what Rowling said; regardless of what one thinks of her views, let's not put things into her mouth that she never said, that's a WP:BLP issue. Saying that "only women menstruate" does not equate with "only the persons who menstruate are women" (ie. what she says is that men don't menstruate, not that women who don't menstruate aren't real women). What she means is: "Not all women menstruate, but only women menstruate." The part on transmen may be indeed her view, but not the bolded part about menopause/hysterectomy.2A02:2F01:52FF:FFFF:0:0:6465:51FB (talk) 10:20, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

Cool, so you support the addition of criticism about her implicit claim that trans men are women, and her saying that those who say otherwise are trying to erase the concept of sex? YuvalNehemia (talk) 11:18, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

I'm sorry, what is a BLP issue? I haven't implied that she said anything that she didn't write. She wrote what she wrote. What she wrote about menstruation offended a lot of women and men, and it's on the record. Bastun 11:24, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

mermaids

Is the uk times a reliable enough source to label mermaids as controversial? From my understanding it's up there with the daily mail in terms of manufacturing fake controversies. EDIT: see also the[REDACTED] page about mermaids itself which does not refer to them as such.--Licks-rocks (talk) 22:52, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

to expand on this further: should we call a charity controversial if the subject it raises money for is already controversial? I feel the current wording implies that there is something nefarious going on with this charity beyond it dealing with potentially controversial subject matter, which, going by the charity's[REDACTED] page and my knowledge of it, doesn't seem to be the case--Licks-rocks (talk) 23:16, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

@Britmax: pinging you since you reverted my edit on this --Licks-rocks (talk) 23:18, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

Summary of J. K. Rowling's essay on transgender issues

The section Transgender issues reads like this:

Rowling later published an essay on her website in response to the criticism. She said that she was a survivor of domestic abuse and sexual assault, and stated that allowing trans women access to single-sex spaces was a danger to women, while stating that most trans people were vulnerable and deserved protection. She also wrote that many women consider terms like "people who menstruate" to be demeaning.

This is such a poor summary of Rowling's essay that it's almost a caricature of that essay. For some reason, the summary focuses on single-sex spaces access of transwomen although that is only a minor part of that essay (and as somebody else pointed it's not even clear if Rowling has a problem with access of transwomen as such, rather than with broad regulations which would allow any man to enter such spaces). There are so many other issues she addresses in that essay, including medical concerns re MS (she is involved in MS activism), concerns regarding huge increases in teenage girls transitioning in recent years, inability of women to define themselves as a class; Rowling sees these, as well as many other issues, as problems. If we choose to summarize Rowling's essay we should do it properly, without misrepresenting what she says; if we can't do that, than we shouldn't comment at all on the essay, instead we should simply say that she wrote an essay in response which sought to clarify her positions on trans issues, with a link to the essay so that readers see for themselves what the essay contains and make their own minds.2A02:2F01:52FF:FFFF:0:0:6465:51FB (talk) 07:24, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

I'm okay with something along the lines of "Rowling later published an essay... In which she opposed several transgender rights, such as changing the gender marker on IDs and letting trans people enter the same toilets as their gender." Which includes more of what she said there. You may also add that "she claimed trans women in women's toilets are a threat to women, an that the transgender community is trying to erase the concept of biological sex, forcing doctors to ignore it when treating them." All of these are claims in that essay, all of them are false. YuvalNehemia (talk) 07:35, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

Also let's not forget that she claimed trans men are confused women and that trans people are trying to "convert" cis gay men. You wanna include that too? YuvalNehemia (talk) 07:46, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

Bias against Rowling is showing This site is full of SJW editors. Pity ,[REDACTED] is regressive not progressive. Both points of view should be included. Arguments of the things Rowling is right about Arguments of the things Rowling is wrong about But you editors won't allow that just to fit the gender narrative. Wonder if she could sue - I would if I could . Indeed this site is misrepresenting Rowlings ideas by not including some support for her or the points shes right about and their are people who support her . Hpdh4 15:55, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

Reactions (criticism and support) to J. K. Rowling's views on transgender issues

I see there has been a lot of controversy regarding whose reactions on Rowling's views on transgender issues should be included here, but the question is should any reactions be included at all in this article? There's a section Views with four subsections: Politics, Religion, Press, Transgender issues. For some reason, the first three subsections just explain Rowling's views on those issues without giving any reactions or response from other people or organizations, although many of those issues are highly controversial; whereas the Transgender issues is almost half about response/reactions from others. We already have the Politics of J. K. Rowling page where we can (and should) detail how her views were received.

On the other hand, if we do include reactions from others, we should only include those people/organizations who had commented explicitly on Rowling. Some of the actors cited as "criticizing her views" didn't actually say anything on Rowling. They have only posted support for trans rights in general, without any mention of Rowling. Of course, given the timing of such postings, it can be inferred that they were indirectly criticizing Rowling, but we are not allowed to engage in WP:OR here. 2A02:2F01:52FF:FFFF:0:0:6465:51FB (talk) 07:50, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

This section is justifyingly long, because it's the biggest controversy Rowling has been part of (just as a way of measurement, the only thing Rowling tweeted since that stream of tweets on 7 July was the link to that 3600 word essay). Rowling's claims were denounced by several major LGBTQ+ organisations and by the entire main cast of Harry Potter. You can't ignore that. The actors other than Radcliffe (who's special in this case) were only mentioned in a single sentence, so that this chapter doesn't become too text heavy.

I understand why you are concerned, but the current status of this chapter is entirely justified. YuvalNehemia (talk) 08:35, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

You're right, there has been a lot of controversy. We're discussing how it should be covered in a couple of sections above, already. Starting a new one implies you probably haven't read the talk page, where your points have already been addressed. Can we keep discussion to the sections that are already open, please? Bastun 12:49, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

yep it is confusing and repetive... I do apologise for replying when someone starts a new thread and I felt the need to reply. This talk page has become very messy. ~ BOD ~ 22:44, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

This is a biographical article

If this controversy is important enough to include alternate views, then it probably needs an article of its own. Serendious 09:22, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

This could be taken as an argument for keeping the section as short as it is. Per WP:NOTNEWS, and the fact that most of the sources on this are low-quality entertainment sources that are usually about flash-in-the-pan things like what so and so wore to such and such premiere, a new article is not warranted. Such an article would be a WP:POVFORK and would not survive AfD. Crossroads 16:05, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

It may scare you but there are plenty of sources that are certainly not 'low-quality entertainment sources' which Misplaced Pages considers very reliable that have reported on this issue, or maybe the Daily Telegraph, Guardian, Independent, Forbes, Variety etc should be treated as unreliable on the WP:RSP. ~ BOD ~ 16:41, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

Doesn't scare me at all. Note that per RSP, though, "As an entertainment trade magazine, Variety is considered a reliable source in its field." (Emphasis added.) And in any case, just because several outlets cover something at the same time does not mean it warrants its own article. Per WP:NOTNEWS, "Misplaced Pages considers the enduring notability of persons and events. While news coverage can be useful source material for encyclopedic topics, most newsworthy events do not qualify for inclusion...Even when an individual is notable, not all events they are involved in are. For example, news reporting about celebrities and sports figures can be very frequent and cover a lot of trivia". Tweets are trivia. Crossroads 16:50, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

Firstly I should say I actually do share your concerns regards article forks, I prefer for the event to be treated properly and accurately here.

Most peoples Tweets are indeed total trivia, but these tweets are by a high profile sociopolitical commentator which have been reported in the serious press, so they have become elevated to more than just tweets. Tweets can be notable in themselves, (our great world leader is well known for using them and there is an article on his tweets).

I do think the notable reactions against her tweet AND the lengthy essay with which she released to the world as a famous social-political commentator (which contained several additional erroneous fallacies regards transgendered people), should not be dismissed away as some loopy trans activists with their knickers in a twist in the low-quality entertainment press, it deserves to be treated with accurately neutrally respectfully, with full knowledge about the words and topics she chose to use. ~ BOD ~ 22:29, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages articles that use British English
• Misplaced Pages featured articles
• Featured articles that have appeared on the main page
• Featured articles that have appeared on the main page once
• Old requests for peer review
• Biography articles of living people
• All unassessed articles
• FA-Class biography articles
• FA-Class biography (arts and entertainment) articles
• Mid-importance biography (arts and entertainment) articles
• Arts and entertainment work group articles
• WikiProject Biography articles
• FA-Class Bristol articles
• Mid-importance Bristol articles
• WikiProject Bristol articles
• FA-Class children and young adult literature articles
• Top-importance children and young adult literature articles
• FA-Class Women writers articles
• High-importance Women writers articles
• WikiProject Women articles
• WikiProject Women writers articles
• FA-Class WikiProject Women articles
• All WikiProject Women-related pages
• FA-Class novel articles
• High-importance novel articles
• FA-Class Fantasy fiction articles
• High-importance Fantasy fiction articles
• FA-Class Harry Potter articles
• Top-importance Harry Potter articles
• Harry Potter task force articles
• WikiProject Novels articles
• FA-Class Literature articles
• Mid-importance Literature articles
• Selected anniversaries (July 2017)
• Misplaced Pages pages referenced by the press