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	Tourette syndrome is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Misplaced Pages community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.
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Apostrophe

Why is "Tourette's syndrome" not mentioned in the lead? It's a common variant, as evidenced at NHS, Patient, WebMD, Priory, Guardian, Medical News Today, BMJ and many more. Jenny Jankel (talk) 08:26, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

Hi, Jenny. In this case (unlike Down syndrome), the reason that particular common variant is not listed in the lead sentence (but is listed in the infobox) is that there are many common variant names (indeed, different official names) for this condition, and listing all of them would not be practical. There is Tourette syndrome, Tourette's syndrome, Tourette's disorder, Gilles de la Tourette syndrome, GTS, and even the outlandish official ICD term, combined vocal and multiple motor tic disorder . If we start listing them in the lead, where do we stop? We end up with a breach of MOS:FIRST. In this case-- which is different than Down syndrome-- it is more important in the lead to highlight the abbreviation most commonly used (Tourette's), because that is what is used throughout the article as well as what is most commonly known to people. Both WP:COMMONSENSE and MOS:FIRST come in to play here, as they should in every discussion-- each article is different. Another factor to consider is that this is a Featured article and has been through community review processes, so there is broader consensus surrounding the lead than in a non-FA (see WP:OWN#Featured articles), and edit warring is less likely to occur as people understand that. Hope this helps. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:09, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

All due respect being given, I do not entirely agree with those arguments..firstly, those other variants you mentioned are *far* less common, and it is also a slippery slope argument, the hypothetial outcome of which is not reasonably likely to follow as a result of the thing that it is being used to argue against.. Furthermore, it is common Misplaced Pages practice to name the two most common names that exist for an article's subject (when two commonly used variants exist), along with a common abbreviation.

I would agree that two names and two abbreviations might be excessive, and that in such cases when there exist two very common abbreviations and one full name that is significantly more common than all the others, it would be best to list the single name and the two abbreviations in the lead sentence. In this case, however, I think Tourette's syndrome is a more significant variant than TS is an abbreviation. Unlike commonly known abbreviations such as ADHD or OCD, most people would have no idea what TS if they saw an undefined reference to it. Therefore, I would suggest something like, "Tourette syndrome or Tourette's syndrome, commonly referred to as simply Tourette's..."

LASTLY -- and, most importantly -- it is important for all editors to remember that there is no such thing as a perfect article, and no article will ever be perfect. An article having been chosen as a featured article would certainly be a good reason for not making radical alterations to it, but it shouldn't be used as a blanket reason for opposing any and all edits, no matter how small they be. Cheers Firejuggler86 (talk) 09:34, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

Agreed. With Tourette syndrome and Tourette's syndrome being the most common names, both should be prioritised over a lesser-used abbreviation. Jenny Jankel (talk) 14:52, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

TS is the most common abbreviation; if readers aren't aware of that, we make them aware of it by listing it in the lead. Here are some samples:

1. From the Tourette Association of America, first page, overview, key facts:

   Tourette Syndrome (TS) is a neurodevelopmental disorder that becomes evident in early childhood or adolescence.

2. From the Tourette Syndrome Foundation of Canada, from the first About section, on What is Tourette syndrome:

   Tourette Syndrome or TS is a Neurodevelopmental or brain-based condition that causes people who have it to make involuntary sounds and movements called tics.

3. From the NIH Fact Sheet on TS:

   Tourette syndrome (TS) is a neurological disorder characterized by repetitive, stereotyped, involuntary movements and vocalizations called tics.

4. From the CDC:

   Tourette Syndrome (TS) causes people to have “tics”.

5. From the Cleveland Clinic

   What is Tourette syndrome (TS)? Tourette syndrome (TS) is named for Dr. Georges Gilles de la Tourette, ...

6. From Tourettes Action (UK):What is TS is the name of the page!

   Tourette Syndrome (TS) is an inherited neurological condition.

7. In the journal literature (over 20,000 hits using the abbreviation TS):

I could go on; those are just a few samples. More significantly, the abbreviation is used in journal articles, and is even necessary for the distinction between Tourette's when it occurs with comorbid conditions, and the "pure" condition which is routinely referred to as "pure TS" or "TS-only". These abbreviations-- as reflected in the journal literature-- are used 61 times in the article. Please read beyond the lead and consider how cumbersome the article would become if all 61 instances of TS had to be fully spelled out. Second, again, the naming here is distinct from Down v. Down's in that there are at least six commonly used names for the conditions, and listing two in the lead with the arbirtrary reasoning given here would require listing all six-- they are already indicated in the infobox, and the apostrophe form is listed in the lead already. Third, WP:OWN#Featured articles is not used as a blanket reason for opposing edits; it encourages discussion before making changes. As yet, I haven't seen an explanation for why adding multiple names for the condition to the lead, and removing abbreviations throughout the article, serves Misplaced Pages's readers. What benefit is there to our readers to have to read through multiple names for a condition with a common name? And what is the benefit of having to spell out the condition in the article hundreds of times because common abbreviations are deleted from the lead? Imagine how cumbersome it will become to have to define "pure TS" halfway through the article, as that is what all the literature calls it. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:49, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

It would not require listing all 3. Tourette syndrome and Tourette's syndrome are in much more common usage than Tourette's disorder, so if we say adding Tourette's disorder as a third AKA is too cluttered, then so be it. Jenny Jankel (talk) 17:33, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

Yes, this is a no-brainer, and there is only one dissenting voice. Making the change. 2A02:C7F:6E64:1C00:60B3:B264:60FA:8500 (talk) 13:28, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Thank you, I've done it. Jenny Jankel (talk) 13:31, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Ok but do we need to even mention the shorter "Tourette's"? There is no mention of "Down's" at Down syndrome... 2A02:C7F:6E64:1C00:60B3:B264:60FA:8500 (talk) 13:35, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

I'm happy either way, but think it could make more sense to add Down's rather than remove Tourette's. Jenny Jankel (talk) 13:43, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Please consider reading the articles and being fully familiar with the literature before making unnecessary changes. At the Down syndrome article, the abbreviation Down’s is not used once in the article, While at this article, the term Tourette’s syndrome is never used in the article (but mentioned in the infobox), while the common abbreviation Tourette’s is frequently used. (I could understand adding an abbreviation at Down’s if the abbreviation is actually used or needed in the article— which it is not.) SandyGeorgia (Talk)

Term added to lead without consensus

Change made without consensus: consensus is not a “vote”. See the statement above from FireJuggler86:

I would agree that two names and two abbreviations might be excessive, and that in such cases when there exist two very common abbreviations and one full name that is significantly more common than all the others, it would be best to list the single name and the two abbreviations in the lead sentence.

This change clutters the lead unnecessarily with a term that is already listed in the infobox and never used in the article. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:36, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Jenny Jankel, could you please explain the objective here, in terms of MOS:LEAD and WP:MEDLEAD, so we can develop a meaningful consensus? I am unclear what the concern is here, but the situations at Tourette syndrome and Down syndrome are different, and I hope to avoid a protracted dispute as the one that occurred at Down syndrome. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:09, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

The consensus is clearly there. Four opinions and arguments for including it, versus one against. Tourette's syndrome is a national variant (UK) and thus should be given equal weight to Tourette syndrome. There is a long debate about this very issue at Talk:Down syndrome, with the obvious conclusion being that the national variant stays. Jenny Jankel (talk) 15:11, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Your count is off, consensus is a not a vote, and the apostrophe in this case is not a UK convention: see item 6 in the list above. In Europe, TS has very long and convoluted names which are rarely used and are in the infobox (Gilles de la Tourette syndrome, which does not use the apostrophe or Combined vocal and multiple motor tic disorder , which also does not use an apostrophe) and you may note in this article Robertson herself (UK researcher) acknowledging that US conventions and classifications and research dominate the field, hence most research defers to US. The variant stayed at Down syndrome for very different reasons. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:25, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Such that even the European Guidelines call it Tourette syndrome.

• Roessner V, Plessen KJ, Rothenberger A, Ludolph AG, Rizzo R, Skov L, Strand G, Stern JS, Termine C, Hoekstra PJ (April 2011). "European clinical guidelines for Tourette syndrome and other tic disorders. Part II: pharmacological treatment". Eur Child Adolesc Psychiatry. 20 (4): 173–96. doi:10.1007/s00787-011-0163-7. PMC 3065650. PMID 21445724.

Unlike the situation and history which I mentioned in the Down syndrome discussion, US conventions dominate with TS and its research. Also of note, two of the most frequent contributors to this article (Ceoil and Colin) are from that side of the pond. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:57, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Let's make it two opinions against, then. I oppose listing minor variations in all articles as being redundant. I like to believe that Misplaced Pages's readers are not so stupid that they can't figure out that any "Name syndrome" and "Name's syndrome" are the same thing. If an apostrophe made a significant difference to most people's understanding, then c:Category:Misplaced apostrophes in English would be empty.

So what I'd like to learn from its supporters is how creating redundancy in the first sentence would help anyone. So far, all I've been able to guess is that someone personally prefers the version that isn't in the first sentence, and wants to change Misplaced Pages so that their personal preference looks like it's been endorsed by Misplaced Pages as The Right™ version. (Imagine, say, a kid who wants to write one version in homework, but the schoolteacher says that the name is misspelled because it's not the version that Misplaced Pages uses in the first sentence.)

Note, for clarity, that an explanation of how it helps anyone does not include "But my source uses the other spelling". An example of how an additional name would help someone probably sounds like more "People won't know if they're at the right page unless this completely different name, which is the common name in the country of Ruritania, is in the first sentence". WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:30, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

And juuuuust like in the Down's discussion, we have US editors who would rather bury the UK name. Not gonna happen. Jenny Jankel (talk) 17:52, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Jenny Jankel, could you please respond to the specific arguments above that the apostrophe is NOT the common usage either in the UK, or in all of Europe? Either with researchers or the main (only) UK advocacy org. It would be helpful if you would address the points raised, which is preferable to ”Not gonna happen”. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:48, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Published literatre, last 10 years: Tourette syndrome, 1,887; Tourette’s syndrome, 430 SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:29, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

I'm aware that some US sources use Tourette's syndrome and occasional UK sources use Tourette syndrome, but it is absolutely a national variant, as you can see from the NHS, Patient.info, Counselling Directory, Clinical Partners, gov.uk, etc. And Tourettes Action actually uses both. The situation is identical to the Down's one, and the UK name is not a minor variation. And obviously the names used in non-English countries are irrelevant to this discussion. I'm happy to create an RFC if you're not satisfied with the above evidence. Jenny Jankel (talk) 17:45, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Please do not rush yet to another malformed RFC; discussion is preferable first, and you have not yet addressed the points raised. Tourettes action does not use an apostrophe once on its website— I provided that info above. How does adding the apostrophe here benefit our readers? Even the European Guidelines do not use it. If you could answer these points, your concern would be more understandable—-it seems clear that people in Europe know what Tourette syndrome is. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:55, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, my search at the UK advocacy group page was malformed; here is the correct search. They do use the apostrophe occasionally, but almost every instance is where they are referring to someone else's use of the apostrophe. Their own pages and descriptions do not use it. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:38, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Yes, that one website of a UK charity uses both, but otherwise all official and reliable UK sources use Tourette's syndrome. It's as clear-cut as Down's syndrome, and there is no mileage in repeating ourselves. You're welcome to send a link to these "European Guidelines" you speak of, if they're British. Are they? Adding the apostrophe S benefits readers for all the reasons pointed out in lengthy detail at Talk:Down syndrome. Have a nice day now. Jenny Jankel (talk) 13:31, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Are you aware that M Robertson is arguably the leading UK researcher on TS? Do you see (even in this article) that she most often calls it Gilles de la Tourette syndrome (no apostrophe), and she also uses Tourette syndrome and Tourette’s syndrome? Mary Robertson even authored a book entitled Tourette syndrome, (published by Oxford Press). While Cavanna (also UK) tends to almost always use Tourette syndrome. I am curious to understand why you are usng the term “official” since neither Tourette syndrome nor Tourette’s syndrome are “official” names under any classification scheme (DSM or WHO), rather they are both common names. Also, is there any similar situation in the Down/Down’s dilemma as we have in TS, where the leading UK researcher acknowledges the US dominance in research and classification ?? It has been suggested that this dispute should be viewed in terms of WP:ENGVAR, yet in this case we have UK acknowledgement of US dominance in the field. My interest is in avoiding the objection raised above by FireJuggler86, which you installed in spite of their and my objection based on one IP’s post (no consensus). If this addition stays, the implication is that one of the two common abbreviations should be removed, which would result in very tedious and repetitive reading. Because TS is the most common abbreviation, and necessary for the definition of pure TS or TS only, the fix would involve switching every mention of Tourette’s to TS, which seems to actually move in the opposite direction you seek, and would also introduce repetition ... TS used about 200 times. The link to the European Guidelines is already given, just a few posts up. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:43, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Jenny, I took a look at the DS page, and I did not find many solid reasons. I have found (in the order that I noticed them on the page):

• An inaccurate claim that "Down's Syndrome" was the first name, which is not true (Down gave it a racist slur for its first name);
• My country does it this way and others don't, and I believe that representing my country's slight spelling difference is "significant"; and
• "It is a national variation exclusive to a country" (even though it isn't), so WP:LEADALT (which doesn't happen to contain any of these words: national, variation, exclusive, or country) applies.

I am still trying to find out what practical difference it makes to the reader, if we have both rather than one or the other. Perhaps to put it another way, if this article were written in British English and (therefore) used the possessive form, would you be here demanding that the shorter name be added to the first sentence? WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:15, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Yes, I would absolutely include the US name if the article used the British name. Can you think of any instances where this wouldn't be appropriate? I can't.

Tourette's syndrome is by far the most common term used in the UK, both by reliable and unreliable sources. What individual researchers might call it doesn't enter the argument. The common name here is Tourette's syndrome.

There is no need to remove "Tourette's" or "TS" and I don't know why that's part of your argument. The lead is not overly cluttered.

Likewise the "US dominance" thing. So what? That doesn't change the fact that the official and common name over here is Tourette's syndrome.

I have answered all of your questions, and they all come back to the fact that the term is a national variant, exactly like we see with Down's syndrome. There's no need to over-complicate something so simple. Jenny Jankel (talk) 17:09, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

• We sometimes give spelling variants, and we sometimes don't. Coeliac artery uses only the British spelling in the first sentence; Celiac lymph nodes uses only the US spelling. There is no rule requiring the presence of all spelling varieties in the first sentence.
• The name that researchers use is very important, because Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style/Medicine-related articles says to give it precedence over common names. That's why we have an article at Myocardial infarction instead of at "heart attack".
• Please tell me the name of the UK agency that is officially responsible for defining British English names. I have never heard that such an agency exists, and if one does, then I'd like to put a link to it in WP:MEDMOS.

WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:43, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Firstly, it's not a "spelling difference". This argument was covered at Down's syndrome. Secondly, the Celiac artery page is clearly problematic since the title of the page and the body of the article are at odds. Thirdly, Myocardial infarction doesn't fail to include the common name in the lead now, does it? Jenny Jankel (talk) 23:33, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Jenny, the opposition to the cluttered lead was FireJuggler86; please read up so I can avoid repeating posts. I requoted their post already at the start of this section. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:48, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Why bring it up at all then? Jenny Jankel (talk) 23:33, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Because you asked why it was “part of my argument”; read your previous post pls. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:50, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Of course we should add it to the lede. This is actually exactly the same case as Down/Down's syndrome. Tourette's sydrome is the common name in the UK. See the official NHS webpage on the subject, on which it is referred to as Tourette's syndrome or Tourette's throughout. You can't really get much more authoritative than that for medical matters in the UK. -- Necrothesp (talk) 00:04, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Note, Necrothesp has never edited either this article or its talk page before, and was canvassed. @Girth Summit: SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:50, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

However, Necrothesp is a highly experienced editor with a wide range of interests and might take exception to the implication that his opinion is not valid because he has "never edited either this article or its talk page before" which suggests some sort of wrongdoing and/or ignorance on his part! Kindly refrain from such suggestions just because his opinion differs from yours. This is a discussion and no !voting is involved and I'm frankly grateful that my attention was drawn to it. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:54, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

I would also point out that the suggestion that Tourette syndrome or Tourette's syndrome (abbreviated as TS or Tourette's) is overcrowding the lede is a little bit laughable. We have ledes much longer than that. It's a perfectly acceptable length and includes the relevant information (i.e. the common names and abbreviations in the common varieties of English). It is longstanding procedure that significant information should be included in the lede and not just in the infobox, which is only intended as a summary, not as a primary presentation of information. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:11, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Note: SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:28, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

I am aware of the conventions on canvassing. However, coming here due to being alerted does not invalidate my opinion - intimating that it does is tantamount to undermining freedom of expression (as it suggests that only those who are intimately connected with this page are entitled to express an opinion about it), which is contrary to the values of Misplaced Pages. I have a perfect right to express my opinion on any talkpage I choose and I will exercise that right. Thank you. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:43, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

I have to agree with WhatamIdoing here; spelling variants are optional and agree they clutter the lead, hindering readability. Frankly I find this all very trivial, and an odd and minor point to become preoccupied with. Saying this as a BritEn speaker myself. Ceoil (talk) 01:36, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Respectfully, you're not British. Jenny Jankel (talk) 15:52, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

This American can't recall ever coming across a reference to this disorder without an apostrophe. --Khajidha (talk) 16:37, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Because most people and many publications do casually refer to it by the abbreviation, Tourette's (which is why we still need the abbreviation in the lead, hence end up with now four terms in the lead if we include the full UK alternate, which I felt was encompassed by the abbreviation, Tourette's, and that using both Tourette's and Tourette's syndrome is repetitive). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:47, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

It is not emcompassed by the ebbreviation, because the "syndrome" is missing. Jenny Jankel (talk) 17:23, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

No, I'm not referring to "Tourette's" in isolation. I'm talking about the full term "Tourette's syndrome". I can't recall ever seeing "Tourette syndrome". --Khajidha (talk) 16:53, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

And while I HAVE seen "Down syndrome", the bulk of usage I come across is still "Down's". --Khajidha (talk) 16:55, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

First sentence proposal

@Jenny Jankel, Firejuggler86, WhatamIdoing, Necrothesp, Ceoil, Khajidha, and Girth Summit: (I believe that to be the complete list of everyone who has engaged the discussion-- if I missed anyone it was unintentional!)

Tourette syndrome (TS), also known as Tourette's syndrome, is a common ...

This is a proposed resolution from Iridescent, who is an experienced Featured article writer.

Iri's proposal accounts for my concern (echoed by Firejuggler86) that four similar terms in the lead are too many, while still allowing for the apostrophe in the lead.

Iri's reasoning is that we don't need to include the additional abbreviation (Tourette's) because it is an obvious contraction, and the reader will understand that when they encounter the term in the text. Adopting this proposal would (I hope) satisfy Janny Jankel's concern, while providing a way forward that does not require the article to be re-written to accommodate different abbreviations (which was my concern).

Let's discuss, hopefully without the dreaded !voting via Oppose/Support ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:37, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

• I am happy with this proposal if others agree that the contraction, Tourette's, can stay in the article without defining it in the first sentence, on the assumption that the reader will understand that Tourette's is a contraction for Tourette's syndrome. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:40, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

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