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A Barnstar for you!

		The Russia Barnstar of National Merit
		Your efforts have been worthwhile comrade! You bring pride to the motherland. For an impressive job creating Bibliography of the Russian Revolution and Civil War, I hereby award you the Barnstar of National Merit. Keep up the good work! CaptainEek ⚓ 19:42, 31 January 2020 (UTC)

AfD "primers"

I noticed you participated in a deletion discussion about Martin Archer. This is the first time I noticed the "primers" in the upper right corner. The first two links make sense. But why is the third link to an essay? An essay titled "Help my article got nominated for deletion." My article? Does every Afd have this bias in favor of "saving" articles? Do you know who put this link there or who I could talk to about this? Thanks.
Vmavanti (talk) 02:48, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

• Reply Hi ‎Vmavanti. I've found this area challenging and very interesting. I believe both Keeping and Deleting articles are important to maintaining/improving the quality of the encyclopedia. There is a process in AfD to help both the reviewers and creators. I don't believe there is a bias in the process, but editors do often have bias and the guidelines/policies/essays help mitigate this is discussion and help form a consensus. From the creator's standpoint, it's only natural to want to save the article and the essay gives some good advice to newer editors on how to understand and approach the AfD discussion and article creation. I have no idea who put this link there, I'd say the best place to discuss this would be the essay's talk page.

Barkeep49 has been helpful to me, I doubt they know anything about the link, but they may have things to add to my reply the above.

Please let me know if I can be of any help. I hope all is well.   // Timothy :: talk  04:42, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Vmavanti, yes that is a standard link. It is intended to do what it says: offer advice and information to people who have worked on articles now nominated for deletion. If you read the essay you will see it's not really pro keep at all. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 12:30, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Before and article creation

Wait, what, before is not a prerequiste for article creation? This is the underlying problem. We really, really, really, really ought to go to requiring every single new article goes through the Articles for Creation process. Considering how much legacy cruft we have predating 2006 it would not solve all our problems, but it would make things a lot better moving forward.John Pack Lambert (talk) 15:14, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

• Reply to @Johnpacklambert:: I totally agree. // begin venting // The focus on quantity over quality, production over development is frustrating. The BEFORE principles are there, but it should be far more explicit. The standard is so low on what is notable and what a rs is, it makes those that want to produce quality articles (not mass produce non-notable stubs whose only function is to exist) want to scream. I shook my head in disgust at the countdown to 6,000,000 articles, it was like a plea for spam. The principles of "addresses the topic directly and in detail", "with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy" and "Information should not be included in this encyclopedia solely because it is true or useful." are often interpreted so loosely that they're devoid of almost all meaning as a standard. And even with this low standard, NPP and AfD can't keep up. Perhaps there will be a breaking point and the community will start raising the standard instead of lowering it ("a fool in his heart hopes"). // end venting // Hope this finds you well.   // Timothy :: talk  16:35, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

• We have raised that standard a little bit. We no longer accept all major party nominees for US congress as notable as we once did, but we have not applied that to all legacy articles, and we are far too willing to make someone a notable candidate on passing articles that say nothing of substance of their campaign. You would probably like my full of dread count down to 1 million biographies of living people. If I am right, at one point we moved backwards on it. I have to admit that back in the late 2000s and early 2010s I was responsible for huge amounts of pushing out quantity of quality. This is one of the reasons I have probably nominated at least 5 articles I created for deletion. There needs to be reforms. I really do not see why we do not require every single article to go through AfC. I also even less see why we continue to allow users to have as their first edit the creation of a new article, and wonder why people are not more serious against enforcing the policies against autobiographies.John Pack Lambert (talk) 17:03, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Stubs

I know a guy who has been creating stubs for over ten years. Is that OK? This isn't a trick question. I'm not sure there is an answer. Judging by what I've seen so far, yes it's OK, but it makes no sense to me.
Vmavanti (talk) 02:31, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

Hi Vmavanti. Sorry for the delayed response I just noticed this (I don't check here often enough). It's okay to create stubs for notable topics, too many though are not notable. Personally I think if you create a stub you should have the intention of developing it into at least a start level article. If you've done enough research to believe a subject is notable enough for a stub, you've found enough to take 15 minutes and add the info to an article to bring it to start level. Again personally I think simply mass creating stubs and hoping someone else will come along and improve them is not helpful to the encyclopedia, but that is an opinion. However, some individuals that mass create stubs are doing so just because they saw something mentioned somewhere, did no work to actually see if the subject was notable and are just hoping the article survives. This is pretty much spam in my opinion and doesn't do anything to improve the encyclopedia; it just creates work for other editors. Hope this finds you well.   // Timothy :: talk  17:07, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for the reply. I spend my time in an extremely obscure subject: jazz. It hasn't been a popular genre since World War II. I found an article from 2015 placing jazz sales figures at 1.4% of music consumption, making it the least popular genre in America with classical. It's difficult to find reliable sources for popular subjects, let alone unpopular ones. No sources, no article. For five years I've been chipping away at the Wikiproject Jazz Cleanup Listing, which consists of the backlog of work to do on nearly 4000 articles out of about 27,000 articles in Wikiproject Jazz. There's only one other person working steadily on this. My first step was to remove from the project articles which weren't jazz, which I thought would be easy. It sure hasn't been. AfDs are something like a duel from the 1800s. Simply removing the Wikiproject Jazz template from articles has resulted in high offense and rage from certain contributors. Stubs are common on the backlog list going back 12 years. In light of all these facts, I thought I would get more cooperation, but I haven't. Mostly what I've seen is Daffy Duck behavior. A doctor described Daffy Duck to me as the id in Freud's trinity of id, ego, and superego. Pure desire. Mine! Mine! Mine! When one edits, one tries not merely to correct mistakes but to prevent them from happening again to avoid playing whack-a-mole. I can think of three people in particular who continue to create stubs, despite my attempts to reason with them. One said, "You will never get me to stop creating stubs." That was a Canadian. Then there's the German who created dozens of stubs about jazz festivals in Germany, a subject covered rarely in American sources—or German sources for that matter. Then there's the petulant, spoiled Brit who has created most of the stubs for ten years who often refuses to talk to me, who projects his own flaws, accusing me of all kinds of hidden motives. Most foreigners don't know what jazz is, and many Brits confuse it with progressive rock. The assumption seems to be: if it's weird, it's jazz, let's throw it onto the jazz project. This is the context in which I look at stubs. Occasionally I will try to find someone to comment on these matters, but most people are too afraid to stick their necks out or too consumed by doing their own thing. Your reply is an exception.
Vmavanti (talk) 12:08, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

Thank you!

		The New Page Patroller's Barnstar
		For your thoughtful AfDs (and not just because of your gracious words here). I've enjoyed working with you, and not just when we agree! (Surprised there isn't a "barnstar of deletion"; perhaps that would send the wrong message?) AleatoryPonderings (talk) 16:46, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

AleatoryPonderings The feeling is entirely mutual. It's always nice to be able to have a pleasant conversation, learn new things and improve the encyclopedia :) Hope this finds you well. Greetings from Los Angeles.   // Timothy :: talk  17:11, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

May I second that barnstar? Very much appreciate your comments on the AfD and am going to withdraw. HickoryOughtShirt?4 (talk) 19:59, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

Thanks

Hi Timothy. I hope your wikibreak is going well. Just wanted to note that I have been noticing your work (even when it's not a question on my talk page). Noticing in a good way. Thanks for the work you're doing here. Hope to see you around soon, Barkeep49 (talk) 02:39, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Barkeep49, thank you that makes me feel good. I will be around. Docs are just adjusting my pain meds, so my mind is a bit foggy :) for a few days until I adjust. Probably not the best time to be editing lol. Best wishes.   // Timothy :: talk  02:44, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) Very much hope you feel better soon! AleatoryPonderings (talk) 15:07, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Thank You

Hi Thimothy, Hope you are doing well. It sad you have left for vacation. I was about to learn much from you. It not just about the article. I have been framed as a person who is a paid contributor and payer for voting. Its sad. I guess i cannot get to be a contributor and trusted level writer again. I am very disappointed.

Just came to say bye. (Existance Leesaaisath 12:59, 15 August 2020 (UTC))

• Reply Hi Leesaaisath, I'm still around, just was away for a bit. I know you can be a good contributor and wouldn't let this rough period make you leave. Almost all new editors have a rough period while they learn how things work on Misplaced Pages. I don't know what the issue was related to COI, but that's a common notice people who add links receive, it's sometimes a mistake and if this was the case here, don't worry about it. My feedback to you is basically summed up by saying you're experiencing what a lot of people experience when new and learning about how Misplaced Pages editing works. It can seem much harsher than it actually is. Sometimes it's easy for those that have been around a while and are used to these messages, forget how upsetting they can be to someone that hasn't experienced them before.

I think you could be a great asset for the encyclopedia since you are from a part of the world that is under-represented here and have local language skills that are uncommon on English Misplaced Pages. I've asked on the nomination page, that your article be made into a Draft so you can continue to work on it and find more sources. I think you should go to the nomiination page and also request this be sent to Draft.

Finally, there is a place on Misplaced Pages called the teahouse WP:TEAHOUSE where individuals can ask for mentors to ask questions and help them learn how to create articles. I'd go there, explain your situation and ask for someone to help mentor you. You have skills and experience that would be a great advantage to Misplaced Pages, all you need is some experience on the way things work here.

Greetings from Los Angeles,   // Timothy :: talk  14:43, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

Leesaaisath, (by talk reader) Sounds like you've had a bit of a baptism of fire. what has happened to make you feel untrusted, please? Would an opinion from another person named Tim be any help? I may just leap in and give you an opinion anyway! 🌷 Fiddle Faddle 14:54, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

@Leesaaisath: Just wanted to say I really appreciate your contributions to Rozaina Adam. Have you heard of WikiProject Women in Red? I think you might find that a useful resource. I know it must be hard be accused of paid editing. Wikipedians can be a suspicious bunch of people, but as long as you use reliable sources and avoid using promotional language in the future, your fellow editors will assume good faith and you shouldn't have that issue in the future. AleatoryPonderings (talk) 15:05, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

Hi,Timothy your around. :-) I am wondering actually how this thing has unfolded. It was nice to see your around. inspired by you, I even learned to comment on AFD's. I feel like going to swim now.. & Hei Thank you AleatoryPonderings. Yes, Im open for opinions, Guide me on which subjects to write in future. I will sit and research when I am not belle dancing. (Existance Leesaaisath 15:24, 15 August 2020 (UTC))

(talk page stalker) Leesaaisath, Howdy hello! Sorry things have gotten off to such a rough start for you. I hope you stick around and contribute, we have very few contributors who are experienced with the Maldives. If you ever have any questions, I am an administrator and have been mentoring Timothy, and can help you out too :) CaptainEek ⚓ 18:52, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

Thank you. CaptainEeK.

• Reply: Hi Leesaaisath, sorry I haven't replied sooner, but I wanted to let you know I have not forgotten this. I also have been looking into possible articles and see a lot of potential. I need a bit of time (just a bit) to do some more looking and I will write you a message. I hope you are doing well. Thanks for deciding to stay :) I've learned a bit about a region I probably would never have investigated thanks to your prompting, and for this I thank you. Best wishes from Los Angeles.   // Timothy :: talk  15:48, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

Hi Timothy, Thank you. Ask me if you need any help specially authenticating promotional language in Maldivian articles and send me the persons/places in Maldives in you mind. I will be there. I will try to be in Teahouse.

People are commenting or voting which is not in my knowledge and it all comes to my name as I am being paid and now I am being labelled as paying others. I have no such interest as have said will never be part. There is more beauty in creating great things. Not everything is money.

I will be greateful if experienced users Timothy, or CaptainEek ⚓ or AleatoryPonderings or Fiddle Faddle can close it since its already due. Thank you everyone Existance Leesaaisath 11:14, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

DYK for Green Banana Hole

On 17 August 2020, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Green Banana Hole, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that scientists are studying an underwater sinkhole off the Florida coast named the Green Banana Hole? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Green Banana Hole. You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, Green Banana Hole), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

 — Amakuru (talk) 00:01, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

Elmsleigh Centre deletion

• Hey I’ve seen that you have nominated my page for deletion is there anyway I can improve it to not be deleted thanks Takumi (talk) 11:31, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

• Reply Taku20072019, definitely. Anyone is open to improving the article while it is being discussed (this is actually strongly encouraged). You can also place a note there that you are improving the references and this if needed, please move the article to your Drafts as an alternative, so you can continue to work on it. I will support moving it to drafts as an alternative to deletion. I'm very opening to changing my !vote to Keep (or Draft as stated earlier), and hope you're able to succeed.

I'd take a look at WP:GNG for the type of sources you need to establish notability. You need at least two sources, they need to be from publishers with a reputation for editorial oversight and fact-checking (eg: newspapers), and they have to be independent of the subject (no connection to the mall). It needs to be WP:SIGCOV significant coverage, meaning it addresses the subject (not events related to the subject) directly and in-depth. This means that WP:ROUTINE coverage will not meet this. I would check local papers for stories about the mall opening, stories related to any major event or expansion related to the mall, awards from the community, or anything substantial that the mall has done for the community. All these put together would definitely establish notability and probably expand the article a good deal.

I hope this helps and the article is not deleted; it will take some work, but it may be possible. I will help any way I can. I take pleasure in reversing my !vote and keeping an article I thought should be deleted.

Best wishes from Los Angeles,   // Timothy :: talk  17:50, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Malls/dead malls

Hi there, I noticed a general tendency for you to nominate malls, particularly dead malls, for deletion, even in some cases where the sources showed notability (e.g. marking the mall's opening, closing and so forth). And in some cases, such sources were not in the article, as is the case with Golden Mall which I tried to fix to get up to standard. But since this is a pattern, I would just like to suggest that in most cases a regional mall almost always are notable, as they were generally the largest commercial complex in any suburban community, and there are almost always, in the local press, articles marking their opening, major changes and closing. By missing them we miss a key institution in communities during a certain historic period. I am not a fan of malls at all, but as my passion is urban design, urban planning, architecture and so forth, malls were a huge part of the landscape or social environment in our communities until recently. Particularly now that they are disappearing, changing, going through crisis and so forth, I think they are items that people will be looking for some basic information about. When it is a simple question of finding the relevant sources to stand up to notability, I would be delighted to try and find these for articles in jeopardy of deletion. Best Keizers (talk) 04:08, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

• Reply: Hi Keizers, it's not a pattern, yesterday I went through a category; I have maybe another dozen to do a WP:BEFORE on. In the past, I've gone through other cats that I believe contain a lot of non-notable articles, you can see this on my AfD report. Specifically, about your concern regarding shopping malls, I don't see malls in the same way you do, but what matters is if they meet notability guidelines, not the way we feel about something. WP:ROUTINE coverage in local media is not enough to satisfy the criteria for WP:SIGCOV in WP:NBUILD. Articles about openings, closings, renovations, local events, etc are WP:ROUTINE; every mall has this kind of local routine coverage. WP:NOTEVERYTHING: "Information should not be included in this encyclopedia solely because it is true or useful.", WP:INDISCRIMINATE: "As explained in § Encyclopedic content above, merely being true, or even verifiable, does not automatically make something suitable for inclusion in the encyclopedia." Notability means the subject is "worthy of note". If the malls I've nominated are a "huge part of the landscape or social environment in our communities" or if they are of historical significance, there will actually be WP:RS to back that up, otherwise its an opinion. I think your goal should be to show RS that document this about these malls. Newspaper archives are easy to search (as I'm doing for BEFORE), so if there is coverage, it can be found. The passion you mention above is fine, sports fans think almost every athlete is notable, film buffs think almost every movie is notable, royal watchers think every member of a royal family is notable. But what matters are the notability guidelines. I'm sorry I can't agree with you on this, but if you are right, you will be able to show it at AfD; I have no intention of nominating articles I know will be kept, so if you show notability and there is a consensus for keeping this type of article, I will respect that.   // Timothy :: talk  04:48, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for your thoughtful reply. Since this is a passionate hobby, I have a couple follow-up questions because I want to use my time towards something which will be of use to other people. You say that coverage of opening, expansions, closings, etc. is not notable. I get that. Could you give some examples of what would make a mall is notable? Examples:

• "It is the largest commercial structure in La Mirada" - Notable?
• "It's the first enclosed mall in California"
• Golden Mall - if I show that it was a project of huge civic importance and then failed, is that notable?

When I look at it in the light of what you stated, good grief, I think 80% of malls are not notable. They are simply large structures with such-and-such anchors and this many square feet, built in 19XX, expanded in 19XX, closed in 20XX etc. And even worse by that standard are articles like List of shopping malls in California. What possible value could those have if Misplaced Pages "is not a directory"? And if none of that IS notable, should I try to include this in the articles about the community, for example in La Mirada, California under History or Economy. In the context of a La Mirada article, I would expect that mentioning that it had a regional mall would be a relevant "factoid" in its history or the history of its Economy. Thoughts? Keizers (talk) 14:52, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

• Reply: Hi Keizers. As far as deleting some of the malls, I see it as wheat and chaff. If we have 2000 articles for American malls, but only 200 are genuinely noteworthy, the 200 will be obscured by the other 1800. So in a way removing non-notable malls, elevates the remaining ones. If all readers see when they look at malls, is open, renovate, close, boring routine items, they will miss the truly interesting and noteworthy malls.

I think this is what WP:NBUILD is going for when it says "may be notable as a result of their historic, social, economic, or architectural importance".

• Is there some historical importance, such as the malls that were the first of their kind? I'm thinking here of department stores, every department store is not notable, but the first department stores were pioneers those have a history that is interesting and notable. It might take some work to dig out the information, the simple fact they were among the first is enough to make a claim to notability because sources probably do exist.

• Social, a small mall in an urban area not socially notable, it's just one among a vast array of social environments. But a mall in a small town may be the center of the community and a significant part of the community not duplicated in other places. If the article relates how a mall is an integral part of the social fabric of a community, this is interesting and notable. This would be reflected in the newspapers and local sources for the community and it would establish notability.
• Architectural speaks for itself, there are lots of architectural journals and magazines and if they cover a mall because of its design, then I see that as an indication something about the mall is notable and this can be in the article.
• Economic, I'd go to the social reason above. A mall in a large urban area is going to make a negligible impact on the economy, even if it makes good money. But a mall in a small town may be a significant part of the local economy, even if it makes a fraction of the money the mall in an urban area does. In the same way as a factory in a city with a huge manufacturing base like Los Angeles or New York wouldn't be notable, but if you move that same factory to a small town, it could be the life blood of the economy, if it closed the town would (and sadly have) dry up. Again this would be reflected in the newspapers and local sources for the community and it would establish notability.

This is my thinking on notability. It's not about the existence of routine coverage, but about coverage that shows notability. I'm glad we're having this conversation. There was a failed guideline for shopping malls Misplaced Pages:Notability (shopping centers), it might be a good time to revisit this and see if some clearer guidelines. I was thinking the same about royalty, nobility, and awards. I saw AleatoryPonderings was working on something for lawyers (good luck on telling a lawyer they're not notable). I think clarifying notability on some subjects will focus AfD discussion and make arguments based in guidelines easier.

Not to repeat myself, but the pruning only makes the good stuff more visible. It hurt to nominate the La Mirada Mall. I used to get off the bus from Union Station in La Mirada to visit someone at Biola and walked past it when it was a construction site. We couldn't hang out on campus without being noticed, so eventually the mall became a meeting place. We saw a lot of films there because it had SIX screens each with a double feature and clean restrooms and new seats without years of grime! But sadly none of that is notability, just nostalgia. Grauman's Chinese Theatre for all its grime is notable.

This is a stream of thought post, so excuse anything I've muddled. I look forward to your thoughts.   // Timothy :: talk  21:08, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the thoughtful reply, again. I have no doubt La Mirada mall had such a role in La Mirada, however I think it might be difficult to find newspaper coverage of that - what is published that would reflect that might be sales numbers, the frequency of events like the Easter Bunny and Santa, but again those are going to turn out to be mundane. Blogs are pretty much off-limits as sources. At best I might be able to find some text in the articles about its initial planning and opening - but I would be lucky if those weren't emotional and promotional, unless I happened across a quote like "it will contribute X number of jobs" in a population of say, 50,000. And even then it would be a solitary sentence reflecting local notability. I think that some basic information about it does belong in the La Mirada, California article in the history, economics sections or both. Grudgingly I admit that it belongs there... I don't feel too bad as long as the basic facts about the mall are not lost. I go on and on about La Mirada but have never been there. Grew up in Villa Park, Orange and Irvine, went to school in Westwood, lived in Hollywood. I am a pretty deep local history buff, 3rd generation Angeleno and (at some point in life) Bullock's employee and was amazed that until this year I had never heard of Hollywood as a major retail district in the 1920s, or AT ALL about the small but stunning Victorian downtown that existed where the Civic Center is and of which barely a trace remains. Sweet story about the bus, my how times have changed. Do you live near Downtown LA? Keizers (talk) 15:03, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Two questions

Hello @TimothyBlue!! i have two questions that are related to the article Niki and Gabi especially since you've took a look at it, well first the article has no pictures and i can't add pictures to it 'cause my commons account is blocked, there is (or i can search for other) that i wanna add in there but i don't know how, also there is an article for Gabi DeMartino that contains everything about here as a solo artist (here is a Draft page) but they keep undo the edits and make it a redirect page to Niki and Gabi so i don't know what's wrong, thank you so much have a great day! Gabriella Grande (talk) 05:26, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

Hi Gabriella Grande, I haven't forgotten about this, I'm waiting for some information from commons.   // Timothy :: talk  00:42, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

Oh don't worry TimothyBlue i can wait! Gabriella Grande (talk) 06:44, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Special Barnstar
	For resurrecting Sonoratown, Los Angeles, by listing it with the other neighborhoods in this city. BeenAroundAWhile (talk) 23:38, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

• Thank you BeenAroundAWhile and best wishes.   // Timothy :: talk  23:51, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

Sa'id of Mogadishu

Greetings, could you help in figuring out if this person Sa'id of Mogadishu deserves a page on Misplaced Pages. He seems to be one of the individuals sent as an envoy to China in the 14th century, but is that enough to justify a page dedicated to the individual?--AlaskaLava (talk) 21:05, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

• Hi AlaskaLava, Sorry for the delay in responding, I just saw this message. I'd be happy to help if I can. If you could post a list of references here I'd be happy to look at them. If the reference is a book, please include author name, title, pages, date of publication; if the reference is to an academic journal, please include author name, title, journal name, volume, issue and date. If you need to search for sources, you may have access to the Misplaced Pages Library] or be able to request access to it. I'd start with JSTOR, it will probably provide the best example of what is available about them; He is a list of journals they archive about this area. Best Wishes from Los Angeles,   // Timothy :: talk  17:19, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

Deletion of “Cappy Burnside” Please help

I received notification about this discussion on the same day it occurred. I had some other issues to deal with and couldn’t log on and get involved. I’ve been reading over the discussion of the deleted page “Cappy Burnside.” First, he was the subject of front-page Washington Post article complete with a large full-length photo of him. The article is not about a person who merely had a bridge named after him. The bridge, which leads to the vital FBI CJIS Division, would not exist without him. The FBI would not be where it is or even in West Virginia, had it not been for Cappy. This is all clear in the article. At the time, the last glass factory had just closed and people were unemployed. He took his existing position in the local chamber of commerce to create a committee and contacted Senator Byrd when he heard that Byrd had claimed the new fingerprint center for WV. He personally (this is not an exaggeration—this is substantiated in the article) solved a multitude of problems that almost caused the FBI to pull out several times. He had the connections from his business and such to do this. I could go on and on. As I mentioned, the bridge wouldn’t be there without him. The FBI was going to end the deal immediately unless a new exit and interchange were created from I-79 directly to the FBI. Cappy took two FBI agents that morning to Charleston and met first with his friend, who then the head of the Department of Highways. Later that day, they met with them-governor Gaston Caperton, also a friend. By the end of the day, the exit and interchange was approved. Cappy designed much of it himself (that was his profession). The FBI project was saved. Other problems popped up and Cappy put out the fires. He put his own family and business on hold (having to close the business soon after). As a result of his hard work (and the hard work of others, of course), the FBI CJIS became the primary employer for several counties. Classes were available at colleges to prepare students for high-tech jobs. Other government contractors moved in nearby. There is now an I-79 High-Tech Corridor including NASA’s recently-renamed Katherine Johnson Independent Verification & Validation Facility. Most of the top government contractors and aviation companies are here. Amazon recently considered it as a location. Cappy had worked his adult life trying to make North Central West Virginia a better place. He finally found an opportunity to do something that would change everything. He would say everything would be different. I didn’t live here while all this was happening. I was in DC. I saw his photo in the Washington Post and realized it might be kind of important. Jesse Jackson was verbally attacking Sen. Byrd and Cappy for taking jobs from Washington. He was interviewed on “All Things Considered” I visited briefly and he showed me where things would be. I came back a year later and I saw progress. I moved out of the country and returned after a couple of years and didn’t recognize the area. People were employed. There are two developments near the FBI, White Oaks and Charlespointe. Large office buildings including MITRE (the government contractor), hotels, restaurants, and a convention center were built. These would never have been imagined before the FBI. Cappy certainly didn’t work alone, but he was, as Don Flynn, the FBI special agent in charge of the FBI project said, the “driving force.” Flynn also said the FBI would not be there had it not been for Cappy. Hence, several references to one article that quotes Flynn. I had promises from other people who said they’d edit and finish the article. He also played a significant role in holding West Virginia Public Radio together during a rough time. The director of WVPR said she’d get involved but, like everyone else, she’s been busy. I realize my own connection with the article is taken into consideration. I was careful to cite everything. I also spoke with others who were involved to ensure I was being objective. I do have the advantage of having been away from the area most of my life. Cappy was always modest and never said anything about his personal efforts. I discovered this from other sources. He passed away in August 2014. I did see in the discussion that there was some leaning in his favor. This is not an article about a bridge. The bridge is one of many honors because of his contribution. When you consider the number of people employed, the people this has brought into the state, the revenue, and the fact that several people, including the FBI SAIC said it would not have happened without him, I think he deserves notability. He created a tremendous positive economic effect and the growth continues. Construction continues. Please help me. Reconsider the deletion. Appl atcha (talk) 15:57, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

• Reply Hi Appl atcha, He sounds like a wonderful person. I was just a participant in the discussion, I don't have the power to undelete an article. It might be possible to have a copy of the article sent to you so you could continue to develop it (Disclaimer: I'm not sure about this). You could ask Malcolmxl5 if this is possible. No need to send him all the above text, he will see it here. It might help if you were able to cite multiple references (newspaper name, article author, and date; obituaries usually are not considered, but other articles) you could add to the article. Again I'm not sure this can be done. Best wishes,   // Timothy :: talk  17:06, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Tri City Mall

I gave the article a major improvement in the sourcing department. Ten Pound Hammer • 03:17, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

• Serious question: is every scrap of coverage on Colonial Plaza "routine coverage" that "doesn't establish significance" to you? Ten Pound Hammer • 04:10, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

• Honest answer: I just saw this message, but I will look after dinner. I have reversed my position before and honestly look at these sources; I'm not in anyway stubborn about saying I was mistaken about a nomination. Here is an example of me doing this 2 days ago Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/St. Joseph Academy (Adrian, Michigan) based on new sources. I do have very strong feelings about notability being established by guidelines and policy and that notability means what WP:N says, that something is "worthy of note" in an encyclopedia, not just something that happens to be true or simply existed.

I left this message on another page for everyone, I'll leave it here also:

Guidelines are not just random arbitrary statements, there is a purpose to them. I see this as wheat and chaff. If we have 2000 articles for American malls (don't know the actual number), but only 200 are genuinely noteworthy, the 200 (10%) will be obscured by the other 1800 (90%). Removing non-notable malls, helps the visibility of notable ones. If all readers see when they look at malls, is open, renovate, close, boring routine items, they will miss the truly interesting and noteworthy malls. I believe this is what WP:NBUILD is going for when it says "may be notable as a result of their historic, social, economic, or architectural importance".

• Is there some historical importance, such as the malls that were the first of their kind? I'm thinking here of the same way department stores are viewed, every department store is not notable, but the first department stores were pioneers, those have a history that is interesting and notable.
• Social, a small/average mall in an urban area not socially notable, it's just one among a vast array of social environments. But a mall in a small town may be the center of the community and a significant part of the social fabric, not duplicated in other places.
• Architectural speaks for itself, there are lots of architectural journals and magazines and if they cover a mall because of its design, then I see that as an indication something about the mall is notable and this can be in the article.
• Economic, I'd go to the social reason above. A mall in a large urban area is going to make a negligible impact on the economy, even if it makes good money. But a mall in a small town may be a significant part of the local economy, even if it makes a fraction of the money the mall in an urban area does. In the same way as a factory in a city with a huge manufacturing base like Los Angeles or New York wouldn't be notable, but if you move that same factory to a small town, it could be the lifeblood of the economy, if it closed the town would (and sadly have) dry up.

  // Timothy :: talk  04:31, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

And copying what I said in the Hawthorn discussion...

*"Historical": "every department store is not notable, but the first department stores were pioneers." So by that logic, Bon Marche in Paris is notable because it was a first, whereas Kohl's, Burlington, and J.C. Penney aren't notable at all because they weren't the first of anything nor did they pioneer anything.

"separating the wheat from the chaff.... helps the visibility of notable ones." That's like saying that a musician who never entered the Hot 100 (for example The Forester Sisters, which is a WP:GA) should be deleted so that an article on, say, Maroon 5 or Metallica can have its visibility helped, whatever that means. Because by your standards, the Forester Sisters were just a "routine" band who routinely got together, routinely released singles and albums, routinely got reviews from routine music reviewers, and routinely broke up like most other bands do.

"it's just one among a vast array of social environment". So by your logic, Northland Center is notable because it was one of the first and a "pioneer", whereas literally every other mall in Metro Detroit is "just one among a vast array" and therefore not notable. Not even the one that had the very first American Eagle Outfitters in it, huh? Because it's in a mall that's "just one among a vast array" by not being notable in any other fashion.

"Architectural speaks for itself". Not every structure has to be architecturally notable. Again, I guess that means that Forest Fair Village is just another run-of-the-mill, routine mall that routinely got built and routinely died because it didn't have anything significant from a structural standpoint.

" A mall in a large urban area is going to make a negligible impact on the economy, even if it makes good money." How much is non negligible by your standards? Is Colonial Plaza no longer notable because it got torn down? Rolling Acres Mall is not notable because it didn't make enough money and failed?

If you contrast Tri-City Pavilions with other GA-class mall articles like Colonial Plaza or Forest Fair Village (again, both of which are GAs), then you will see that the scope of coverage is exactly the same. But by your standards, not notable because they're "routine", "not historical", and their removal will "help the visibility of notable ones", whatever the hell that means. Misplaced Pages does not have a limited amount of storage space so it's not like there's a pressing reason to "separat the wheat from the chaff". Again, that's like saying that lesser-known, defunct bands should have their articles deleted, or that canceled TV shows should have their articles deleted to "increase the visibility" of currently-airing shows. Are The Forester Sisters "chaff" because they're "routine" and no longer active? Is Lonestar "chaff" because they haven't had a hit single in years? Is Joe Diffie "chaff" because he's no longer alive? Is Colonial Plaza "chaff" because it was torn down? Is Rolling Acres Mall "chaff" because it was torn down? You seem to be concocting an utterly absurd and overly narrow view of notability that in no way lines up with WP:GNG.